1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America’s Extremist Underworld

1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: By the way, this episode and especially this part right here in the beginning, starts off graphic. No kids in the car for this one for sure. Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:09] Scott Payne: he had done something she told him to never do again, and he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three or four days.

She couldn't get ahold of him. She didn't know where he was at. He finally comes home. She took a two by four and put it behind his legs and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board. Picture it. Picture a board stuck to the back. If you hook to your ball sack.

[00:00:38] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.

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Part two, with Scott Payne. We had so much to talk about before. He's retired, FBI undercover. He's been with biker gangs, helped take down a bunch of these outlaw biker gangs. One percenters this week we're talking about how he, well, kind of accidentally joined the Ku Klux Klan White nationalist violence, something called accelerationist, which are guys who just kind of wanna see the whole world burns so they can start a white supremacist or white separatist, ethnostate.

In the United States of America. These people are real folks. Absolutely nuts. By the way, this episode and especially this part right here in the beginning starts off graphic. No kids in the car for this one, for sure.

Man. I appreciate you coming back. Last time we talked to you, we talked about some of the ups and downs of. Undercover and going into the outlaws biker gang. But the next level up in craziness is some of these, I don't even know if you still call 'em, gangs, are almost like cults with some of the weird stuff that they were doing.

Can you outline some of this? 'cause I rarely don't know where to begin, but the book has a man having sex with a donkey and the donkey, but his fingers off. It's just like, okay. Is that where we open the show? And I think that might be where we open the show, is just there was a guy banging a donkey.

[00:02:44] Scott Payne: Yeah, I think I said it on the last one.

My faith, it's carried me through a lot of this stuff, if not all of it, you know? Yeah. And I forget 'cause I'm in church groups and they're like, man, we're gonna get your book. And as I was reading the audio book, I started just laughing in the studio and they're like, what? I go, man, I forgot how graphic a lot of this stuff is.

So I need to go back and do a, a disclaimer. There's a lot of graphic stuff, but it's true.

[00:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. My church group is gonna read this particular. Page of this book. You're undercover with some of these gangs, and we'll get into what these are, but no disrespect for people who are upstanding citizens of these particular areas of the country, but this is real, like, can you say redneck country at the point where somebody's having sex with a donkey at a party?

I think we are all on the same page here, right? That's a little, yeah.

[00:03:27] Scott Payne: The case was brought to fruition because complaints of public corruption, cops being dirty and this, that, and the others were looking for like systemic public corruption. But what ended up happening in this rural area of Tennessee is that we hit it right at the beginning of the opioid epidemic.

The Mecca at that point was in Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida. Back then, I didn't know it. I was undercover with them. If you don't work it, you don't know it, I guess, unless somebody tells you. But I remember being with somebody and they're like, man, I'm sick. I could see him sweating and I'm like, Hey, lemme pull in and get you like a Theraflu or Es, but no, I'm pill sick, dammit.

And I'm like, what

[00:04:04] Jordan Harbinger: is that pill sick? The guy was pill sick, meaning he like hadn't had a dose of Oxycontin in enough time and he was suffering through withdrawal, correct

[00:04:12] Scott Payne: withdrawals. And I will tell you, I have seen withdrawals. I've seen the hardcore shake and bake, making your car open wounds, lesions, brown puss, blood.

And you're like, dude, that person's died. That's like fullblown aids or something. It was just withdrawing from meth. Ugh. Crappy meth. Dirty meth. And then 30 days later, you see somebody in, I don't know how many years they shaved off their life, but they looked a lot better. They got weight on them. And you're like, damn.

But I'll tell you, the withdrawals from opioids, boy, probably the closest thing to death. Obviously I'm I you wanna die. The ones I've seen, you're cramping and peeing yourself for 12 days. You can't eat. Your body's cramping. You got fevers, you're screaming bloody murder. It is bad. We had four pill mills that we ended up taking down.

Me and my buddy and the task forces did the case and our first round of indictments was 102 people on a drug conspiracy in East Tennessee. But I remember testifying before the grand jury and talking about the withdrawals, like I just talked with you. And a lady raised her hand who was in the jury, and she said, look, I used to work in the uh, N Unit at University of Tennessee Children's Hospital.

And she said, when those babies are born addicted to that, she's seen the babies. She said, they're not even formed enough to have the muscles in their neck to raise their head, but they're in so much pain from the withdrawals, the babies are actually raising their heads. And I didn't even know that. And when she said that, it was like, woof, that's terrible.

So that was the kind of crew we started seeing and we were actually calling down and working with DEA diversion and DEA as a whole in um, Florida. At that point in time, we're talking like 2009. You could go to Broward County. You and I could roll in with five other people packed in a car. We could go into the doctor's office, pay cash for the visit.

At one point they had an MRI machine and a tractor trailer parked behind a strip club. Why? I guess to kill time, you're at the strip club, but you could go around back and get an MRI because they wanted to try to make their records look legit. But we could go in there, walk into the doctor's office, get our script walk out, and you pay cash for that, and you're still under the same roof and there's a pharmacy under the same roof, so you get that prescription filled.

Then we could drive down the road to the next doctor because at that point in time in Florida, they weren't tracking, they weren't tracking opioid cells or doctors. We had car loads coming from East Tennessee and southeastern Kentucky just going there. But yeah, so we're in the backwoods and we're debriefing the source one day and he is, Hey man, that's an old Johnny two fingers, because we're trying to identify people like, who's this guy?

Oh, Scott, that's Johnny. Two fingers. You know who Johnny Two Fingers is? I'm like, no, I don't. He goes, hell, everybody knows who Johnny Two Fingers is. I'm like, okay, who's Johnny? Two fingers. And he starts explaining it and he, I said, why did they call him Johnny Two fingers? He goes, Scott, everybody knows. I said, I don't, oh, Johnny, I guess he was horny and he got up behind the donkey one day at the farm or wherever the heck they were at out in the backyard.

Who knows? And I guess he is having sex with the donkey and he is got his hands on the donkey's back hips

[00:07:16] Jordan Harbinger: as one does, I suppose what you some

[00:07:18] Scott Payne: sort of a donkey, whatever.

[00:07:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Donkey style.

[00:07:21] Scott Payne: And I guess the donkey didn't like it. And he reard back, huh? And took two of the guy's fingers off. Oh my God. I remember looking at the guy telling me, and I'm like, so everybody in town knows that he lost his two fingers having sex with a donkey?

And he is like, yeah. And I said, and he knows, everybody knows that he has. Sex with a donkey and he lost his two finger. He's like, hell yeah. And I said, and he still lives here. Yeah. I'm like, move, yeah. Make up a story.

[00:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: Time to go to Tampa.

[00:07:50] Scott Payne: I'm like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of them. God, there was reports of a dog having sex with a woman.

[00:07:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:07:57] Scott Payne: At a cocaine and pill party, where reportedly some cops were there, but that's hard to prove. Right? It's one of those, he said, she said things, unless I'm there and I'm filming it, which I wasn't, thankfully. But yeah, the German Shepherd's having sex with a female and she starts saying, ow, ow it hurts.

And this is the way it's being described, right? This is the way I typed it up. Sure. Hey man, evidentiary if cops were at a cocaine and pill party. So she starts saying, ow, ow, ow. The way he's telling the story, it makes it like, okay, they're gonna pull the dog off. And what they did is they put socks on the front paws of the dog because what was hurting the girl was the claws going in her back.

Right? And I'm like, oh God. So you didn't stop said bestiality act. You help further.

[00:08:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:08:41] Scott Payne: Said act. And it was like, yeah. And I'm like, geez,

[00:08:45] Jordan Harbinger: like I'm gonna put a stop to this. Go get some mittens for the dog and continue.

[00:08:50] Scott Payne: I got a six sense of humor. At least I have to do what I did. Sure. But I'm like, so note to self, if I see a German Shepherd with socks on this front paws, walk backwards.

That's right.

[00:08:59] Jordan Harbinger: Stay away. Exactly. Man. That is just, how high do you have to be to engage in something like that? There's not enough cocaine in California to make. Most of us probably wanna do that kind of thing.

[00:09:12] Scott Payne: Day four or five. Awake on meth maybe. Yeah. Day four mark around no sleep and meth and no eating.

I've seen people do some pretty crazy stuff.

[00:09:21] Jordan Harbinger: Geez.

[00:09:22] Scott Payne: Sexually. But yeah. Insane stuff. And I remember thinking. When I was younger and living more in the flesh, as they say. Mm-hmm. Back in the Napster days when you could just go and download anything. I'm like, so this is where they film that kind of stuff.

Yeah. I'm like, I

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: always

[00:09:35] Scott Payne: wondered,

[00:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: this is where they film that kind of stuff, and then as you take your hard drive out and throw it into a river. Yeah, that's exactly where they filmed that stuff. Jace. We're gonna have to mark this as explicit on Apple Podcasts and any platform that doesn't take kindly to all of the things that have happened in the first 10 minutes of this show.

You can just bleep it out too Good. It's too good. Alright, so these white supremacist gangs, tell me about these. 'cause when you start infiltrating these groups, they're a whole different animal, right? This isn't like bikers moving guns and meth. They've got a weird and totally different ideology.

[00:10:07] Scott Payne: Purpose drive.

There's different levels, right? I could sit here and give a whole eight hour block on nationalism starting from. K, KK, which was more of a Christian identity where they take the Christian belief and twist the Bible stories to match their ideology. And then you get into Christian identity just as a whole with neo-Nazis, and that would be your Reverend Butler and Red Ray Fair and all that stuff that was going on when they would wear like the blue shirts and the pants and all that stuff, they're propaganda flags and monikers.

And then we saw a movement where white supremacists cleaned up. So now you've got these clean cut white guys, no tattoos, suit and ties, and they called that kinda like entry. They're trying to blend in with general society and get into politics. In their mind they're thinking if we infiltrate the right, they get further to where it's just for whites, which I still, I don't think there's a lot of afterthought.

I'm pretty sure you and I or anybody with common sense would realize. Hey, you only allow whites in this restaurant. I think it would pop out a little bit.

[00:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: This is like the, I'm not a criminal anymore 'cause I have glasses on now. Okay, pal. We see through the disguise you have a tie on. You're still a scumbag.

[00:11:20] Scott Payne: You look a lot like Superman with glasses on, right? Yes, exactly. But they would also infiltrate the left politically and try to bring it down from the inside. So they believe there's a political solution to save the white race. The big group that we talk about in the book, or I talk about me as the primary undercover in the FBI.

We went in and infiltrated. Those were groups called Accelerations and they're still out there. Accelerationism is scary. I know there's a movie. It may already be out. It's coming out called The Order, and it is based on the group called the Order in the eighties. They had that mentality and that ideology, but they weren't calling it accelerationism then.

So an accelerationist. They don't believe that there is a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is either gonna collapse on its own or for manmade events and they wanna speed that up, hence accelerate. I see. So they look at a lot of things like, it's almost like militia meets white supremacy.

So these guys are training for what they believe is D-Day, which is gonna be the start of the race war, which they called the Boogaloo, at least when I was in it. They called it the Boogaloo. And they look at gorilla warfare tactics. Take this power grid down over here, derail a train over here. Shoot a leftist journalist over here, poison a water system here.

Just chaos. So a picture I like to paint is when we were having all the riots all over the country, and I'm not saying there wasn't a good reason to riot, I'm just saying you had riots all over the country. You had the defund, the police movement, you had. Towns being set on fire, like Infernos, police stations being vandalized or possibly taken over a courthouse.

The same thing. An acceleration is just sitting up on the hill with their guns, building up their kit and they're happy. They're like, please keep killing each other. Keep shooting each other. Keep burning the town down 'cause we're gonna come down and clean it up afterwards. And it always ends with like an ethno state, any of those ideologies in the white supremacy realm.

And by the time I retired in 21, within that previous two year timeframe, a lot of other sources of information were telling us. And what we were getting was that two years prior being an accelerationist was kind of cringe. Adam Waffen was like the first big one. James Mason, longtime white supremacist neo-Nazi, wrote the book Siege.

And it's basically a bunch of articles. He idolized Charles Manson, stuff like that. What a good role model if you wanna follow somebody, stuff like that. And it was kinda like get away from the standing on the corner with picket signs that's doing nothing. Sit back, do the Gorilla Warfare, hit 'em here, light hits here.

A lot of stuff like that. So they called that the siege mentality. So it was Adam Waffen and then the base came after that. The base was more of an umbrella.

[00:14:13] Jordan Harbinger: They call themselves the the base. Isn't Al-Qaeda in Arabic? The base. So is that a coincidence?

[00:14:20] Scott Payne: I don't think so. I don't think we ever confirmed it.

I call my buddy, he's still active, but I don't think anybody ever confirmed. But look, you say that your group is called the base. Al-Qaeda in English is the base. Al-Qaeda's Mo was three to five man sales. I always try to correct it 'cause I know I got a country accent. CELL.

[00:14:44] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so people don't think you're saying sales.

[00:14:46] Scott Payne: Yeah. So three to five man sales all over the world waiting for that call for D-Day. That was Al-Qaeda's model. That was the basis model. Three to five man sales all over the world, waiting for the call for D-Day, preparing your kit, preparing for training, and we train each other, uh, survivalist group waiting for that day to come.

And I'm talking about in these groups you would see young kids don't have a job, don't have a car, but they've got an arsenal. They're wearing plate carriers. Their plate carriers. At least the group I was in, cry Precision 2.0. That's the same stuff the FBI's wearing. That's expensive stuff.

[00:15:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:23] Scott Payne: Wow. And they're saving up money for that.

[00:15:25] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Where did they get it? I remember back in the day, I had to buy a bulletproof vest for work. I just had Galls, which is a police catalog, and they had these safari land vests or whatever, and then they had generic ones, which I got 'cause it was like a hundred dollars cheaper. So are they getting these plates and plate carriers just straight outta these police catalogs?

[00:15:43] Scott Payne: It may not be police, it may be military, US military one. There's all kinds of things out there to shop for, plate carriers and whatnot. And then you start stocking up on your ammo and your weapons and building your kid out. They call it your battle rattle.

[00:15:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Scott Payne: But you got your plate carrier, you got all your stuff placed on it.

You've got your belt, you've got your pistol. In the base, the uniform was Flector camo because Flector is a pattern of camouflage, but it's German. So going back to that neo-Nazi kind of thing. Yeah.

[00:16:11] Jordan Harbinger: How capable are these guys? Because whenever I see photos of guys like this, the comments are always like, oh, meal team six is in action.

Or like the the gravy seals. 'cause it's always a guy who looks like he probably wouldn't make it three blocks walking with all the crap. He's got velcroed to himself and he's got like a Velcro extenders to go over his fat belly. So the plate carrier fits. Is that what we're dealing with? Or are these guys like in good shape training?

For my

[00:16:38] Scott Payne: experience, I've seen both. I've seen people come out there. There were people in the base that were very overweight. You got younger guys five hour plus rucks, nothing to anybody that's special forces or military for that matter. But yeah, they're training and. So I get into the group, you go with the cell that's closest to where you say you live.

So being in Tennessee, there was a North Georgia cell and I went down there and it was a 19-year-old kid that led Carine training and it was good. Carine and tactics wasn't the best and there's some mistakes made and of course we're not gonna correct that 'cause we don't want them getting better. But yeah, it was good.

And I'm like, I'm watching and I'm thinking if they did break bad, they could probably get the drop on a lot of people.

[00:17:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's quite scary. I wanna back up a little bit. You mentioned that some of the white supremacist gangs have biblical rationalizations for what they're doing. Can we get a brief overview of that?

'cause I think it's kind of interesting.

[00:17:34] Scott Payne: Sure. Christian identity is making a comeback.

[00:17:36] Jordan Harbinger: So the KKK still exists, right? Oh yeah. This guy, Darryl Davis, who's been on the show, I don't know if you know him. He's essentially talked a bunch of these guys over years and talks them out of the KKK and he keeps their robes.

[00:17:47] Scott Payne: Yes. That's the black man, right? Yeah. Amazing guy. Yeah. Awesome story. Yeah, they're still around. They get splintered a lot. It seems like There's a lot of infighting. The ones I've seen, and in my experience, the ones that I infiltrated, it was backwoods lower socioeconomic status.

[00:18:03] Jordan Harbinger: Surprise, surprise, I guess, right?

[00:18:04] Scott Payne: Yeah. It was very similar to any comedy scene you've seen in a movie that covered the Luc Klu

[00:18:12] Jordan Harbinger: Klan. I mean, it's amazing to me. They still exist. I can only assume it's just a bunch of people whose lives haven't worked out the way they wanted it to, and they're like, oh, blaming brown people. That's easier than looking at all the mistakes I've made.

Where do I sign up for this? That's kind of the impression I get of a lot of these people, especially the interviews with the guys that Darryl's talked to. They just grew up as ignorant as possible with terrible parents. They're not the cream of the crop, and they also say things like, they're not white supremacists.

They're separatists. Do you know what the difference, what does that mean?

[00:18:39] Scott Payne: I'll tell you what they say. I mean, that's what the way it was explained to me. Now, Scott, we're not supremacists anymore. We're separatists, because in other words, supremacist sounds so much worse. A separatist basically is we don't care if all the black people are in that field over there, they can have that field, but we want this field for nothing but whites.

That's basically a separatist and they don't want race mixing at all, you know? And the way it was described to me, I think, what did John Jack say? Did he say You don't see a horse effing a cow or something? It was, we don't wanna see black and whites. But again, if you really start scratching at the surface, and we did a 23 and me of everybody that was in the field, I was in maybe one or two pure white people there.

[00:19:23] Jordan Harbinger: Even then, what does that mean? Like your German and Slavic. Okay. The Nazis thought the SLAs were below. So it's like, where do you draw the imaginary line to put yourself above these people? I found it interesting that a lot of these white supremacist gangs will pimp out white women to non-whites. And it's like, how's that jive with your whole no race mixing thing?

And it's like, well, we need the money.

[00:19:41] Scott Payne: I was a case agent on this one. I went undercover, but we worked the Aryan Nations of Tennessee. And that was the thing they call 'em Aryan Angels. So Christian identity, basically Reverend Butler, red Ray Fair and back in the uh, Aryan Nation days. And they were pushing Christian identity.

It may have started before that. I don't know exactly 'cause I don't have it right in front of me. But the gist of it is this. They take the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, and then they twist it. There's a dual seed line believed. They believe that the biblical story is they're in the Garden of Eden.

God says you can have anything you want except any fruit off of that forbidden tree. The serpent who is Satan talks to, Eve gets her on the sly. She takes a bite of the apple, she gets Adam to take a bite of the apple, and now we're sinners and it all comes down from there. They take that and I'm gonna tell you how they twist it, but you gotta bear with me.

[00:20:35] Jordan Harbinger: Okay?

[00:20:37] Scott Payne: Same story except that the fruit of the Forbidden tree. Is a sexual act with the serpent.

[00:20:46] Jordan Harbinger: Lemme guess the serpent's. A black dude.

[00:20:49] Scott Payne: A man of color. Oh god, that's so corny, man. A man of color who is the seed of Satan himself. It is Satan. He is a man of color. He has sex with Eve and Eve from that sexual act births came and that is the mud race is what they call it, the mud race.

Non-white anything. Not white mud race from there down. But Adam and Eve did procreate Abel and that's the pure white race coming down.

[00:21:18] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. Man. This is just like a biblical version of a bunch of really insecure dudes, worst fears or whatever. It's so corny and predictable. Wow.

[00:21:29] Scott Payne: It's crazy. But I mean, look, they're still out there and a lot of the MO for recruiting that I've seen.

Same thing broken home. Somebody that needs to belong and that need to connect. But from there you've got Aryan Nation, which was the big one, but in the state of Tennessee, you've got Aryan Nations. Not to be confused.

[00:21:49] Jordan Harbinger: Those are two things. Okay. I didn't know those were two separate things.

[00:21:51] Scott Payne: Well, but they kind of men together, at least in my case work.

'cause I ended up interviewing some of the people that created the Aryan Nations in Tennessee, and it was created as a prison gang. But letters started coming from Reverend Butler to the leader of the Aryan Nations. And his street name was Legion Letters. Hey, cease and Desist we're already the Aryan Nation.

And basically it went back and forth and letters and said, look, we've already lost blood on this name. We're not changing. And Reverend Butler said, if you're gonna keep the name, will you at least listen to Christian Identity and let me teach you. And they took that. So even in jail in Tennessee. Or any area nations in the prison system, they're gonna have their tattoo with the four quadrants.

They're gonna carry the White Rock, they're gonna have their 88 precepts, they're gonna have church and they mix some biblical in there. Under Reverend Butler, they weren't felons so you could have guns and stuff. And that was a big thing. We don't want you guys to be part of, 'cause you're felons and you can't have a weapon and all this other stuff.

So they're supposed to go by a certain set of bylaws. I mean, I've got a copy of them, they're out there. But the thing is, when they were getting out, what we were seeing is they were going right back in the Dope Gang. And what we uncovered is that a lot of the crystal meth coming from Mexico and the cartel was at least up to here for a good while, was coming through a gang called Ghostface Gangsters.

And GFG made not a pact, but basically an agreement with. Nations would get all their crystal meth from them. So going back to what you said, they have Aryan Angels, so you can become an Aryan angel and you're now under the Aryan Nations. But as we put in the book and we were uncovering is they were pimping women out.

I'm like, tell me how you're furthering the white race by pimping out your white women. Just going off of the 14 word slogan that David Lane coined many years ago, that all white supremacists are like 14 words. Uh, secure the white race and the future of our people. Some along those lines.

[00:23:54] Jordan Harbinger: Here it is from the a DL is a reference to the most popular white supremacist slogan in the world.

We must secure the existence of our people and the future for white children. That's the fire phrase and that is essentially. Yada yada. The whole world is controlled by Jews. Just in case anybody was confused. Yeah. Okay. So that's where the 1488 thing comes from. Right. The eighth letter of the alphabet is h and that's, so 88 is hh, which is heel Hitler.

So 1488 is a white supremacist like code number, I forget the name for it. Shibboleth.

[00:24:25] Scott Payne: We got a patch over there somewhere. 'cause I got it from whatever,

[00:24:28] Jordan Harbinger: from some donkey banging party. Yeah. So,

[00:24:32] Scott Payne: but more of a goat killing party than a, uh, than a donkey. More of a

[00:24:34] Jordan Harbinger: goat killing party. Okay. You went to a KKK meeting and I was surprised to learn that they don't burn crosses, they light crosses.

And that's apparently a difference that you need to know. Need to,

[00:24:46] Scott Payne: yeah. So I'm out there in the middle of a field, in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of Alabama. And I remember asking, I'm playing like, I don't know everything about this stuff. And the role I was in, I'm like, Hey, I'm an old biker, you know, I've never been to this kind of rally.

What do you guys do? And I, I remember asking, are we gonna burn the cross? Or however I worded it. And John Jack, who was the clad, which would be their chaplain.

[00:25:10] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I was gonna say club. Never heard that word. All right. Yeah.

[00:25:13] Scott Payne: If you're in the K, everything phonetically. That sounds like K is now a KI.

[00:25:19] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:25:19] Scott Payne: Gotcha. See what I'm saying? They change it all to Ks.

[00:25:21] Jordan Harbinger: Very clever. Yeah,

[00:25:22] Scott Payne: with a K. Clever with a K. Yeah. I'm out there, and then somehow the cross burning comes up and he says, now Scott, it's not called a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's cross lighting. And I'm like, oh, okay. It signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming down into the world and driving the darkness out.

Now, I didn't ask, but I'm pretty sure by darkness he meant non-white people.

[00:25:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm pretty sure we could put that one together, like, oh, okay. The metaphor is really literal in this particular

[00:25:50] Scott Payne: instance and in my. Six sense of humor. I didn't say it out loud, but as I'm thinking I'm going right, and I'm staring at the cross.

I'm like, yeah, because I've met so many white guys named Jesus. You know? I'm like, this was not a Jew, according to them. Yeah. If you switch over to an acceleration, it says, F your Jewish God.

[00:26:07] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I see. Interesting. It's

[00:26:08] Scott Payne: completely different. Geez. It's a little crazy.

[00:26:11] Jordan Harbinger: The KK, K stuff. It really sounded all so stupid in Mickey Mouse, right.

It was like, nobody say anything and be quiet. And then 10 minutes later if anybody needs to speak up now, and you're like, but you told us to be quiet. Oh yeah. Forget about that. Forget about that. Don't move. But raise your hand if you, you just told us not to move and not to talk. Oh, okay. Forget about that.

[00:26:30] Scott Payne: I know. It's funny. I don't wanna make light of it because it is a terrible thing. The, the hate.

[00:26:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:26:36] Scott Payne: But yeah, some of it to me was just comical. I mean, I, I felt like I was in a scene from DJ go and chained, or I felt like I was at Oh Brother where Art there, or Harold and Kumar Escape, Guana Babe for that little snippet they did.

Or even Bad boys too.

[00:26:50] Jordan Harbinger: It would be funny if it weren't sinister. Domestic terrorism and violent racism, basically.

[00:26:54] Scott Payne: True. And again, a lot of splintering. It would be like, alright, so we're the Nashville, KK, K, and then we all get in the piss and match tonight and we're like, you know what? We're gonna be South Nashville, KK, K, and y'all are gonna be North Nashville.

It's just, it's splits and stuff.

[00:27:10] Jordan Harbinger: I guess the good news is they're so disorganized, they're not unified at all, that it's hard to come up with sort of a big overarching plan for everything because it's a bunch of punks.

[00:27:20] Scott Payne: Yeah. It seems like there's so much splitting and infighting. They never really pull it together.

Plus it doesn't help when you find out the leader's son married a woman of color or one of the leaders who was one of the loudest anti-gay, anti-black. I know where this is going. That's the guy that gets caught with a black tves. Sure, of course. Yeah. Like. Maybe you shouldn't have been talking so bad about it.

I don't know. Yeah,

[00:27:45] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's just one of those, every accusation is a confession, right? They have so much shame around it that they're like, ah, I can balance this out by being the most anti most racist, homophobic, whatever. And then it all balances out. And then if anybody ever catches me with it, if there's ever any rumors, they'll be like, oh, that guy.

No, it can't be. He's a grand wizard at the Kku Klux Klan with a k.

[00:28:05] Scott Payne: I didn't know that guy was black. I mean, I didn't know it was a guy.

[00:28:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:28:09] Scott Payne: And he's black. He's,

[00:28:09] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. That wasn't me. That would be very anti, all the things that I clearly believe is per my Facebook profile, I was undercover. Yeah. I just wanted to see how they operate.

[00:28:18] Scott Payne: Yeah. I was, no, I was infiltrating them

[00:28:20] Jordan Harbinger: anything for the cause. It's crazy

[00:28:22] Scott Payne: stuff.

[00:28:23] Jordan Harbinger: And now for a word from our sponsor, Al-Qaeda. That doesn't sound right. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by every plate. Figuring out dinner every night is the bane of Jen's existence. We actually tried hiring a private chef once.

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[00:29:39] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by NPRs Up First podcast. You ever feel like Breaking News is just broken, like you're scrolling through social media? It's nonstop doom and clickbait nonsense. That's why I recommend listening to Up First.

From NPR, it's basically a Cliff's notes of the news for the day. There's no bs, no sensational garbage, just three big stories you actually need to know, and it's done in 15 minutes tops, so you can get your news, feel like an informed adult, get on with your life instead of spiraling into another endless scroll.

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If you're wondering how I know all these great authors, thinkers, and creators, it's because of my network. I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over@sixminutenetworking.com. I know networking is kind of gross, but hey, undercover folks like Scott Payne, this is their bread and butter, these relationship building skills, inspiring other people to wanna develop relationships with you, get them to trust you in a non cringe, very down to earth way.

Nothing awkward, nothing cheesy, nothing unethical, just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, a better peer at work. Six minutes a day is all it takes. And hey, many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. I have taught this course.

Two, three letter agencies all over the US and abroad. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart and somewhat dangerous company where you belong. You can find the course for free over@sixminutenetworking.com. Alright, back to Scott Payne. In this meeting though, and like, did you accidentally join the clan through going through that whole rigamarole.

[00:31:30] Scott Payne: So how I got to that group was I ended up playing music because when I called in I'm like, Hey, I've never been to one of these rallies. I've been to a lot of biker rallies. I'm like, is it like that? You got vendors, music? I don't know, Barb, whatever. They said, we got some vendors. And he said, I ain't gonna lie to you, Scott.

He goes, I had a band lined up but the singer got locked up. I don't even know what I'm gonna do right now. And that's when I said, Hey, did I mention I'm a singer and a musician? And he said, no. And I said, well, how about I bring my acoustic, my PA system, whatever, lemme just come out there. I said, I'll play a couple of tune out by the car if you think I suck.

No harm, no foul. I'll throw it back in the car and go about my day. He said, that'd be absolutely great. So I ended up playing music there. But you get intelligence from the case team that's been working it. But I just remember being there and I'm, again, I'm in a field with 30 plus people and I don't know anybody and I know I should be the only undercover there.

No other law enforcement there. And. We get to a point to where they're like, Hey, we're holding a naturalization ceremony tonight. And John Jack's like, there's no sweat off my back. If you wanna go and get naturalized, there's a group of people standing around at that point. And I'm like, yeah, man. Cool.

Well then everybody kind of walks off. I go up to 'em and I go, Hey, what is a naturalization? What am I signing up for? Am I gonna end up naked and tar and feathered and I don't know what's going on out here? He said, nah, man. He goes, listen. He goes, we have this beautiful ceremony. He said, you ever seen the Wizard of Oz?

He said, I've seen grown men bigger than you cry at this ceremony, and once they're naturalized, he said, the beginning of Wizard of Oz, you watch it, it's all in black and white. But once they see the truth, everything's in color. So he's saying, once you're naturalized, basically sworn in, it's a naturalization ceremony.

Kinda like somebody coming into the country in the United States and wanting to be naturalized as a citizen. So I said, okay, because had I not gotten naturalized that night, I would've been the only non-member. Who wasn't being naturalized, so it would've been really kinda odd and outcast. So I went ahead and went through it and they blindfolded us and they gave some commands in the beginning.

You're blindfolded, put your right hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you. You do not break the chain. Whatever you do, we're gonna walk you around. We're on hills going through woods. Whatever you do not break the chain that signifies the bond of brotherhood and the white race and anything else you can throw in there to cheer you on.

So now it's getting really dark blindfolded, and as I put in the book, they're reading from a book. Some of it sounds biblical and some of it's not. And then the reading wasn't that great and then they would miss their spot on the page. And just again, it reminded me of the Django and chain when the holes are off.

Oh God. And uh, I just remember, don't break the chain. Don't break the chain. And we go through this stuff and they like, Hey, if you're a snitch in the group, they fire some shots and all these things. And then it gets down towards the end and I hear. Raise your right hand. And I'm thinking, no, you said don't break the chain.

It's a trick. It's a, I'm like the old Simon says, I'm like, I didn't hear Simon say, and it kept getting louder. Raise your right hand. And it got right up to my ear and its like, raise your right hand. And I was like, but you said don't break the chain. And he is like, oh, well you can go ahead and do it now.

And that's when you end up on your knees. It's a ceremony. And I don't think they're all the same. Their book and their claran is the Claran. The Claran.

[00:34:55] Jordan Harbinger: They call it the Lauan. Wow.

[00:34:57] Scott Payne: K-L-O-R-A-N. Yeah. Geez. Blindfold comes off. There's the chaplain, the club, and his green robe and hood, and he's got a sword.

And I'm disoriented. It's pitch black. I'm like, what the hell's got? I'm trying to work out in my head what am I doing? And if I step back, it'd be easy to figure out, but maybe I'm not a smart man. So I go, okay, and we're kind of hug each other. Now it's time for me to go get my music equipment. So I'm walking across this property out in the middle of nowhere.

It's pitch black and I'm going through my head. 'cause I'm thinking legalese stuff. I'm thinking like I'm an undercover coordinator. Did I do something that was supposed to get approval for Did, what did I just do?

[00:35:36] Jordan Harbinger: Am I allowed to accidentally join the KKK as part of this operation? Right. Because I'm pretty sure that's what just happened.

[00:35:41] Scott Payne: Yeah. Is there an approval process? And I remember walking across the field. I remember stopping and thinking and playing it back and I'm like, I think I just joined the damn clan. I did. I sure did.

[00:35:52] Jordan Harbinger: Do they make you bring your own hood with holes in it? Or is it like you can order that from some place? You get fitted.

Okay.

[00:35:58] Scott Payne: You pass the K, there's a K Uno, K duo, K trio, and K quad test.

[00:36:04] Jordan Harbinger: They call it that because that sounds a lot like Spanish, man. I don't know.

[00:36:10] Scott Payne: Yeah, I know, right. Um, but yeah, I pass the K Uno test. It's written test. We had Klan craft class every week where you're learning things historically. It's cool. I.

Not the fact that they're white supremacists. Yeah, I was gonna

[00:36:22] Jordan Harbinger: say, you

[00:36:22] Scott Payne: better qualify that before. Yeah, no, but the history of the Secret Society being around so long. So you see an acronym and it might be a YAK, you need to know that's, are you a Klansman? It may be a KIA and it's a Klansman. I am. It might be Sandbag.

It's like strangers or near be on Guard, ladies of the Invisible Empire. All these things. And that's what we would've class on every week because that's part of your test. So as far as history, secret, national, treasure, Mason, whatever, it was interesting.

[00:36:56] Jordan Harbinger: It was funny to see the note that one of these gangs, they were like, where do we co-opt other people?

And it was like the Freemasons and somebody else was like, nah, it's all old guys. It's a funny observation because when you hear about Freemasons, they control this, they control that. But then whenever you see a Freemason, it's a dude talking on a cell phone in a Walmart parking lot. He's got 50 extra pounds of gray beard and he's got a cane.

And you're like, these people are not secretly controlling the world. This guy's just trying to get his damn prescription,

[00:37:20] Scott Payne: the Invisible Empire. So yeah, that was crazy. That case we didn't arrest anybody. That case kind of went in the crapper.

[00:37:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Aside from their ideology being total crap, they almost seem harmless in some ways.

It's like an old boys club. Yeah. Families.

[00:37:34] Scott Payne: They have families there other than the belief system. It's bad, but it's not like they were out there liking crosses in people's yards. But I learned valuable things like diesel fuel is called clan cologne.

[00:37:47] Jordan Harbinger: There's no way you don't come away from something like that.

Smelling weird. Yeah.

[00:37:51] Scott Payne: You've got this 20, 30 foot metal cross. You wrap it and burlap. Then you use metal twine to tie the burlap onto it and you soak all the burlap and diesel fuel. You gotta stand that cross up, and there's really no way to stand that cross up without you getting it on you. A wreaked of diesel fuel.

And then when I got home, I made a mistake of throwing it in with my regular laundry. Oh no,

[00:38:12] Jordan Harbinger: not a smart man. How many of these guys light themselves on fire after they're soaked in diesel fuel and then they light across on fire?

[00:38:17] Scott Payne: They'd be out there smoking cigarettes. Oh man. Or lighting fireworks. And there's diesel fuel and I'm like, look man.

[00:38:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I know you have a third grade education, but let me explain something to you.

[00:38:28] Scott Payne: It may not kill them, that they probably survive just fine, but me, I'd probably blown the bits.

[00:38:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Yeah. What's interesting about this is a lot of the crime organizations that you infiltrated. Crime is, it seems like it's about drugs, money, maybe there's a little element of revenge.

You mentioned that in the book, but these ideological groups, are they harder to crack because they have supposedly have a belief system as opposed to just this guy can make us some money?

[00:38:56] Scott Payne: Nah, that might be a case by case basis. Depends on kinda like when we talked about the biker stuff, depending on the chapter, it could be the same organization, but each chapter's a little different.

One chapter might be older people that have jobs and already did their time and they don't want any attention, and the other chapter might be fully young people that just wanna be thugs or whatever. I think maybe a case by case basis, but a lot of them are recruiting, trying to make their numbers bigger.

But their vetting processes are pretty good. Some are very good and then we'll get to the base, I'm sure, but every time the base was infiltrated, their operational security, their offset got tighter. It's like, how did we get infiltrated? We should have known better. We need to change our vetting process.

It gets tougher and tougher as they add more layers on.

[00:39:41] Jordan Harbinger: I assume they usually recruit through word of mouth, like, oh, my cousin would be into this, or whatever. But it seems like also you see a lot of this stuff online where you see dog whistles or little flags where it's like some Reddit account will post a bunch of stuff and people are like, this guy again, get outta here.

And he is got like negative 100 karma or whatever it's called on Reddit. And you just wonder why is this guy doing this? Either he's trolling or he's waiting for the one person who sends him a message that's like, Hey man, I agree with you. And he's like, all right, yeah, you gotta sign up for this Discord server or go into this private website where we can rope you into this stuff.

It just seems exhausting. They've gotta be doing that. Or they would quickly run outta people if you're only recruiting your neighbors and your family.

[00:40:22] Scott Payne: Yeah, and the circles are a lot tighter than most would think once you start getting into groups. If I was legit and active like a lot of these subjects are, they may change their moniker.

But maybe your telegram group got canceled and there's a new telegram group or there's terror Watch, ott Y city thing. Crazy. We take down the criminals, the people with that ideology, they're just gonna hop to the next group. Now am I gonna say there's millions of them that we're ready to come to your doorstep tomorrow and no, but.

Are they dangerous? Absolutely. I think so, because especially in domestic terrorism world, you're looking for those one-offs. You're looking for those long wolves and how do you figure that out without just monitoring and monitoring or word of mouth. But a lot of those groups, they are recruiting. They're actively recruiting, and the base actively recruited on Gab and Telegram and places like that.

[00:41:13] Jordan Harbinger: So what I notice is a lot of these guys, they're kind of huge losers and a lot of them you said are unemployed. What do the other guys do for a living? I always wonder, do you see professionals in these groups, lawyers, doctors, and engineers? What are you mostly seeing in these groups?

[00:41:28] Scott Payne: In the Accelerationist group?

New neo-Nazi groups. The ones I infiltrated, I can only speak for those or the ones, I might have been a case agent working even in the base. We had one guy that was a truck driver, he had decent money, had a job, another one was like a computer, an IT guy. But then again, some of 'em were like young, some of 'em didn't have jobs.

Or if they did, they were like part-time or small time. Nothing huge. However, look at the leader. You look at Aldo Naro, who was the leader of the base, who's still trying to get it back on track. Recently I get an article sent to me from Guardian. Somebody said, Hey man, check this out. So the Guardian is covering that Renado.

NRO is actively recruiting again for the base. NRO is an American citizen born a Villanova grad, former Army, worked Intel side was supposedly contracted in the Department of Justice. Maybe it was Department of Defense. But in the beginning the word was is that he had been a contractor in the FBI. But I don't think that came to fruition either way though.

Now this guy resides in Russia and he has created this group, the base. Now he says there's no leaders, but he was the leader.

[00:42:40] Jordan Harbinger: Man. This might be a little bit outside your scope, but does Russia encourage these guys? I mean, obviously they're enabling him to do this because it's bad for the United States, but is there any evidence when you do these cases that they're getting aid from Russia, like expertise, advice, funding, or anything like that?

[00:42:56] Scott Payne: Yes, there is. From a lot of our threat countries, it's tough because when you dive deep, now we're getting into classified information. You know what I mean? But as far as the criminal side goes, yeah, it's been found. And it's not just on the white supremacy side, Russia, China. They put money in to create chaos in the United States.

Let's just take TikTok, the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial. They'll look at the home and say, okay, a mother and daughter and a father and son. This is how silly it is, but it's just to create chaos. Let's inundate the men with Johnny Depp stuff and inundate the women with Amber heard stuff just to cause an argument at the dinner table.

Interesting. But yeah, like the funding has been found. I don't think it's huge publicly, and I don't think I'm giving away too much. You can see criminal stuff, but the idea is to, so chaos put, lemme put it this way, if you see towns being burnt down and all this stuff that we just mentioned, they're loving it too.

They, they want the destabilization.

[00:43:56] Jordan Harbinger: I can see a world in which Iran is funding a white supremacist group, and it's ironic, I suppose, because that would be money well spent for the theocracy, right? Let's fund a white supremacist group. They're never really gonna succeed. They're never really gonna get to us, but they are gonna cause problems for law enforcement and other things in the United States, and they're going to give a black eyed image to the United States.

We could even have them do something and then say, see, the United States is full of Nazis, so we're the good guys, right? I can see a country like Iran, Russia, China, doing that here. It's almost just like a really easy play for them.

[00:44:29] Scott Payne: The Ukraine War, and a lot of these white supremacy groups, especially like neo-Nazi, especially accelerations, they were always talking about, Hey, let's get our shit together, get our money, and let's go over to Ukraine and fight with the battalion.

So they're fighting Russia. The battalion, it was, it's white supremacy.

[00:44:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've heard about that. I wanted to do something about that because then the take from pro-Russia is that, hey, the whole Ukrainian army is this neo-Nazi outfit. And what's interesting is I got a couple of people that I know that are Israeli special forces and they were like, as a battalion, I went there and trained them.

Yeah, they have a bunch of white supremacist guys, but really they hate Russians. That's what they really hate is Russians. Do they hate Jews? Probably. But they didn't have any problem working with us and we told 'em how to launch Javelins or whatever it was that they were doing over there. And I thought that was interesting.

It's like they're sitting there working with the Israeli army 'cause they wanna fight Russians, that that was too rich. But I suppose my enemy is my friend. Yeah.

[00:45:24] Scott Payne: I'm going back to year Iran thing. That's funny.

[00:45:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, white power.

[00:45:27] Scott Payne: Yeah. Wait a minute.

[00:45:29] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And the Jewish guys are just like, I'm gonna go have lunch.

You guys do your white power thing. I'll be back in an hour. It was sad, right? 'cause a lot of these guys are edgy teens, sometimes. They're literally teenagers. They're unemployed, they're losers. And there's this dialogue where this guy says. Man, I'm gonna have to kill my dad and my ex-fiance because she's black.

Once this ethnostate is formed and it's just, I'm just bummed about it. What in the walking contradiction is going on here? Your ex-fiance was black, but you wanna form a white ethnostate and then you gotta kill your dad because he's gonna be against the ethnostate. And it's just, it's really sad. 'cause you can just see these guys are like, they're willing to tank their whole lives and kill people that they love for this thing.

That's never gonna happen. And they're going through it and it's just like, what gets you to that point?

[00:46:13] Scott Payne: We believe you're part of a cause. Right. And the one that specifically said that stuff that was leading that conversation, he is from Canada, but he was being trained up. So first time I heard about his ex-fiancee being of color, we were on a hike, but a lot of those conversations would be sitting out by the barn.

Late in the evening. He was crying. He is like, when the D-Day happens, when the boogaloo kicks off. If you're not fascist, that automatically makes you anti-fascist and the penalty is death. And he said, I know I'm probably gonna have to put a bullet in the back of my dad's head. I can do it. But he's crying, like saying it.

And then another base member says, I could kill my dad too, who's just upstairs. By the way, I could kill my dad too, but I'd cry myself to sleep every day. So I'd probably get somebody else to do it. And then the other one that was out there that night, pestilence said, you guys are farther along than me.

'cause I couldn't kill my parents. He was definitely dealing more with like the order of nine angles, satanism, white supremacy, sect. But yeah, for me, I just look at it like good versus evil, break it down, not left versus right. And even if you're not a believer and you don't believe in spiritual warfare and whatever, okay, but good versus evil, generally speaking, you know what's good?

There are people who don't, and there's a term for those people, they got some psychological stuff and it comes in all forms. But I did see a lot of young guys that had probably been bullied. Definitely outcasts, don't have a partner, can't get a partner, and they get on the phone, they get on your smartphone and you dive deep into a rabbit hole every night of hate, whether it's on Gab, telegram, discord.

There was a four chan, an eight chan, a 12 chan. There was three ma wire riot, you name it, all this stuff. But proton mail and stuff, it's all things that they think can't be subpoenaed by the feds and excused from nefarious activity. But you dive deep into that and you start believing. So there's so much AI stuff out there now.

Or just false reporting. I remember when I was in a lot of these groups, even as a case agent, I'm like, is this real or not? Because it looks freaking real. So you gotta pull and go, okay, well lemme look at the what, the left's reporting. Lemme look at what the right's reporting and find the truth somewhere in the middle.

But they're diving into that and they're believing it. Also, on gab, I hopped into the groups called 14 words. Shocker Whites only shocker white supremacists in there. And that's where I was seeing the, uh, base propaganda and recruiting stuff. But what they would do is like a recruitment thing or to make you pro-white anti-anything not white, is they would do like a montage of real things that happened.

So there was a brutal murder of a young couple, white boy, white girl in east Tennessee, and it was probably one of the most horrific things I've ever after the fact looked at and said, damn. Just rape and beaten, folded them in half, put 'em in a drum alive. I mean, just torture. And they both died and that was three black guys and a black woman.

You take that and you show that, and then it's followed by that thing that went viral with, I think it was the three or four black teams that were beating and laughing at the white, mentally and physically challenged kid in the corner. And they show that, and they show like a video that's been captured of a black man beating a white female cop or a black man coming into doing a home invasion and beating a white woman.

They do that, and that's stuff that really happened, but it happens on the opposite side as well. Yeah, sure. Of course, you could be a black extremist and you could show all the bad things that white people have done to people of color, and you can use that, but it's just divide. It's just hate. I'm not trying to preach to anybody, but look, if you've ever seen a good depiction of the devil.

It's just going around whispering in ears. How come whether or not whisper you, man, George, you hear what Scott said about you. I can't believe you're gonna let somebody get away with that. And then it comes over to me and goes, Hey, did you hear what Jordan said he is gonna do about you? And you're just creating chaos in your division and hate

[00:50:28] Jordan Harbinger: man, and it works on damaged people.

You've got some depictions of some pretty crazy folks. Tammy, the torturer. This is a person, she just had screws loose in every part of her psyche, you think?

[00:50:41] Scott Payne: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Tammy, me and a good friend of mine who's a task force officer, we did an undercover, and it was basically a murder for hire, but they hired us to do four home invasions and murder.

Two people,

[00:50:55] Jordan Harbinger: two specific people, I assume. Not just two random. Okay. Yeah.

[00:50:58] Scott Payne: Yeah. Because what it was is her son was moving drugs and money for the main dealers, so he knew where all the guns the open money was at. So that's how they got the information. And their idea was to take 'em all out, get a bunch of money.

So we meet and we're talking about stuff and I remember we got there and we thought we were gonna be talking to the husband and the husband's like, that's not really my idea, it was my wife. So I go, where's your wife? She's sleeping. I said, you gotta go get her up. You want me to? I said, I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you.

If it's not your plan, I'm here to make money. So make money. We get Tammy and she hops in the truck, she's in the front passenger seat, other guy's in the back seat. And we're driving around looking at these spots, casing the place. I just remember driving and uh, she's like, you know, I'm really into torture.

You need anybody tortured? I love torture. And I'm like, okay, I'm being nonchalant by this. This is my skillset. And she says, you know, you can take the clothes hanger and you can bend it on the end and you can shove it into a man's penis and then rip it back out. And when you rip it out, then you pour salt down his penis.

[00:52:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh God.

[00:52:09] Scott Payne: Okay. Now you sound a lot like the other people in the truck. Yeah. Ooh,

[00:52:14] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Tammy, did you think of that one yourself? That's a little

[00:52:16] Scott Payne: disturbing. And what she didn't know is two weeks prior, I'd had a lumbar fusion to correct the first lumbar fusion that broke free. And I didn't know it. I'd been going around for approximately 15 years when my back was disconnected.

Geez. But it wasn't the back surgery that hurt because they've come so far in 20 years or 18 years since I'd had my first fusion. But. They jacked my privates up and I had to be dry calfed 'cause I couldn't pee. So they're like, you can go home if you can pee. And I'm like, I can't pee. And it starts hurting.

And I got dry calf. So she's telling the story about this clothes hanger going into a penis and ripping it back out. And I'm thinking that's pretty close to what happened to me, man. They didn't pour salt down it, but it hurt really bad. Oh god. So then she says, you can take a PVC pot and you can jam it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up through there and rip their colon or anus out from the inside out through the PVC pot.

And I remember pulling up to a red light again. Everybody's going, good lord. And I lean over and I'm just like, why are you so angry?

[00:53:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:53:20] Scott Payne: Oh no I'm not. I'm just in the torture. And I'm like, do you want to kill these people? She's like, well, no, I'm too well known around here, but if you need somebody tortured, then she starts tell, we're driving, I don't know, to another spot.

And she tells us a story of her husband. Very skinny man. That he had done something she told him to never do again, and he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three or four days. She couldn't get ahold of him. She didn't know where he was at. She was pissed. He finally comes home and he is, I guess he's been up the whole time 'cause he crashed hard, like out cold.

So she says she took uh, two by four and put it behind his legs and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum. To the board. Wow. And it didn't wake him up. I guess he'd been up that long.

[00:54:07] Jordan Harbinger: I guess that's lucky that he didn't wake up from that. But I bet when he woke up he was very unhappy.

[00:54:12] Scott Payne: Picture it, picture a board stuck to the back of you, hooked to your ballsack and the first

[00:54:16] Jordan Harbinger: thing you do is you try to get up.

So that's how you wake up is you try to roll over like, I need some water. Holy moly.

[00:54:22] Scott Payne: She said, uh, he was screaming forward to get the staples out and she said no. He had to call a friend to come do it.

[00:54:28] Jordan Harbinger: Good luck finding the phone. Jesus. It's 20 feet away, buddy. Dang on, on a string in front of you. Oh god.

I'm sorry honey. Oh, people will do anything but get a, a marriage therapist.

[00:54:40] Scott Payne: Jesus. Even a lot of thought and effort going into robbing four houses or doing four home invasions and murdering two people. I'm like, if you took some of that and applied it to a legit job or something good. Yeah. So after she tells the scrotum stapling story, we pull up to the red light and I'll lean over her.

And I said. Do you watch a lot of slasher flicks? And she said, oh yeah, that's all I watch. And I was like, okay. Surprise, surprise. And she started talking about like the human centipede, where they sewed the face to it. I'm like, but in my mind I'm giggling to myself going, these are my people.

[00:55:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:55:12] Scott Payne: I mean, she's over there clawing her skin, flakes of skin going everywhere.

Oh, Gross's tweaking.

[00:55:17] Jordan Harbinger: Meth head, somebody like that. I do not wanna know what their childhood is like. This is a person who is terrible, but obviously they were not born that way. She is the product of abuse that is unspeakable. I'm sure.

[00:55:29] Scott Payne: True. My buddy in the back said, I think his line was after the staple in the scrotum thing.

He goes, man, you really don't like men, do you? Oh my God. She said, I've been unlucky in love. Oh yeah, I bet you have Tammy. I was like, damn. Yeah, but not as

[00:55:43] Jordan Harbinger: unlucky as her ex-boyfriends have been in love those guys.

[00:55:47] Scott Payne: Well, we'd meet the husband again and we asked dude, did she staple your balls to a two by four with an industrial He, hell yeah, she did.

He goes, man, I knew. He goes, I ain't never had no woman ever do that to me. I knew she was the right one. And I'm like,

[00:55:59] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, okay. I don't know. Wanna know what your upbringing was like? She must make a mean macaroni casserole if you're putting up with that. I'm like,

[00:56:07] Scott Payne: boy, howdy. Jesus. Of course, at his sentencing he said that he was scared of her.

I believe that. And I'm like, you know, I mean,

[00:56:16] Jordan Harbinger: that's probably

[00:56:17] Scott Payne: true from the stories

[00:56:18] Jordan Harbinger: I heard. I kinda am too. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My god, that's crazy. So I found it interesting. You mentioned this early in the book, deescalation is your best weapon, even as a big guy, right? As a dude who can handle himself.

You say multiple times. I found that quite interesting.

[00:56:34] Scott Payne: That's the way I was taught. Do you wanna pour gas on a fire? Did you light the fire and you wanna pour gas on it? I was taught this by some big ass tough dudes. It's just, I'm in your place if something gets messed up. Hey, I all do respect, man. I bad.

I'm sorry I'm out. But. A sexual reference, your mouth is probably your best weapon. You gotta talk, you have to talk. At least for me, in the situations I was in.

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It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Scott Payne, I think a lot of people assume, oh, if you're this big, tough dude, the best thing you can do is just show how tough you are all the time. But it does make sense to deescalate, especially if you're trying to build trust with people.

You're trying to show, Hey, look, I'm smart enough to let cooler heads prevail 'cause we're all on the same team here. We're trying to do business, not just break bottles over each other's heads or whatever it is. One observation I noticed towards the end of the book is the irony of a lot of these accelerationist gangs, white supremacist gangs, is that they are in many ways the biggest bunch of seemingly dumbass, inbred loser drug addicts.

Not all of them, but a lot of them that you described. That was, that

[01:00:34] Scott Payne: was a lot of adjectives. It

[01:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: was you. You got me all there. It all came out at once, but the point I'm trying to make is if actual Nazis took over the government like these guys want, they would be the first ones to get exterminated because they are total waste to society.

They don't have any skills. They're not smart. They have all these hangups and weaknesses. They would be the first ones to get euthanized under an actual sort of pseudo neo-Nazi government.

[01:00:58] Scott Payne: It depends on the groups. I don't like to dehumanize. I don't like to belittle because dead is dead. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine before Columbine happened, what would you have said if I showed you a picture of the kid in Charleston, South Carolina?

That murdered numerous African Americans. I don't like to say their name.

[01:01:19] Jordan Harbinger: I, I can understand that,

[01:01:20] Scott Payne: but I'll tell you this. Sometimes in the undercover world I have to say their name 'cause we're talking about what they did. Or I'm talking about an undercover where the guy says, I wanna do something to this period.

But in the tactical world, we never say their name 'cause that's what they wanted. That's what they want. I'll mention every victim, I'll mention every victim from Columbine and we can name 'em all, but we just don't wanna say their names. Generally speaking,

[01:01:42] Jordan Harbinger: I can get behind that 'cause otherwise it gets glorified.

[01:01:44] Scott Payne: Yeah. So if I showed you a picture of the Charleston kid, right Haircut barely can fill up a Gold Gym tank top with the 45 and Rebel flack, what would you say? How about the kid from Aurora? Colorado, orange and yellow hair.

[01:01:58] Jordan Harbinger: I'm not saying these people aren't dangerous. I think they are especially dangerous.

I just mean that if they ever got what they wanted, they would be down the drain. First thing this would be the first wave of people you get rid of is these kind of loser, useless guys.

[01:02:10] Scott Payne: Look at the rhetorical question I ask. We were out hiking or whatever, and I'm just seeing what they're gonna say. Maybe stirring the pot and having fun on my own, but I'm like, so we're all neo-Nazis.

Yeah. We're all ready for boogaloo. Yeah. We want Nazi back. We want Hitler back. Yeah. Which one of us is gonna be Hitler?

[01:02:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:02:25] Scott Payne: And it just gets quiet. They can only be one. They can only be one who's gonna be it. Which you're saying kind of reminds me of me growing up in the big anarchy days. It's like anarchy.

Anarchy. I'm like, this is before purge and all that stuff were movies. I just remember thinking, I'm like, if there were really no rules and there were no ramifications, do you, you think you're gonna last for You're the first victim? Yeah. I've seen so many doomsday preppers, man. I'm like, you're prepping.

You're prepping. Okay. You look and you go. If you think like a bad person. I want you to stock up on all your food. I want you to stock up on all your weapons and ammo because when D-Day hits, I'm coming and taking you out.

[01:03:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:03:02] Scott Payne: And it's all there.

[01:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. You're one guy or two guys with a rifle. I'm gonna bring 20 guys and tell 'em you got all this stuff in your house.

Yeah. Well, you're not gonna take us all out.

[01:03:12] Scott Payne: You get into some of these groups, man, and it is just scary. But it's also sad when you see some of 'em and you're like, man, that dude, he's been bullied. Maybe some of 'em are on the spectrum on that autism spectrum. Asperger's, not saying that makes you anything.

I'm not trying to generalize, I'm just saying what, no, of course

[01:03:28] Jordan Harbinger: most of them become software engineers or some kind of genius level thing. They don't become Nazi or white separatist, whatever, Christian identity.

[01:03:36] Scott Payne: But maybe that has something to do with the disconnect. Yeah. With society. And then again, it's a case by case basis, but there are groups out there like Eradicate Hate Global Summit.

They held that once a year in Pittsburgh. It started after the uh, tree of Life massacre. And I've got a lot of friends and contacts out there now, blessed enough to be a part of it, and they're doing all kinds of stuff and that's kinda like an umbrella thing. You partner with Life After Hate, they call 'em formers, but you've got like a former radical jihadist who recruited kids to blow stuff up.

They're on the right path. Now. You've got former skinheads, white supremacists, black separatists, and at the end of the day, we're all trying to spread knowledge and stop hate.

[01:04:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've had a few of those guys on the show, Christian Pini, maybe you know him, former skinhead, he's been on the show and I had Amon Dean on who was like memorize the Koran, went to Bosnia to fight the infidels and then he just witnessed all these guys he thought were good Muslims, chainsawing someone's head off, who was just essentially in the army and he is like, this is corrupting all these nice people.

And he eventually went undercover, did incredible work and is now speaking out on the right side. That's a courageous move some of these guys are making to come out of that and then go on the other side. It's really impressive, honestly. 'cause you have to admit that you are wrong in public for a long time and it becomes part of your identity and then you have to help other people in the way that you are helped.

It's really a gutsy thing. We'll link to those episodes in the show notes. I know we're running outta time. Can you go out in public with your family? 'cause it seems like somebody could spot you or do you just live so far away from all these areas where you used to operate?

[01:05:09] Scott Payne: No, I could be spotted. I. I'm a musician and a singer.

I mean, I play at a pretty big church. Yeah, I could be spotted. There's some people, like in certain cases during the take down, I'm like, man, I'm kind of worried about a couple of these suspects or defendants, and I'd like to talk to 'em face to face. The way I've always tried to be is your best defense is a good offense.

That's me. Maybe that doesn't work for the situation of the person, but I wanted to get out in front of it and actually have the conversation right there with that person about any kind of types of retaliation or whatever. There are a few, maybe from the base if they got out, I might be a little concerned, but I don't live in fear, but I don't walk around blindfolded because again, I come from the criminal world of law enforcement.

Once we make that arrest, even if I'm arrested with them. To save something for the case or whatever, or however you wanna work it. At some point they're gonna sit down with their defense attorney and they're gonna get all the discovery and they're gonna hear my voice on a recording saying, this is UCE, whatever, 1, 2, 3, 4.

It's March 7th, 2025, approximately 5:55 PM Eastern time. And I'm gonna be going in to meet so and so. And they're gonna know that. So

[01:06:21] Jordan Harbinger: wow, that must be a hell of a moment for some of these guys 'cause they don't suspect you. Initially, otherwise they wouldn't be in the place where they are if they suspected you.

A

[01:06:29] Scott Payne: lot of 'em say they do though.

[01:06:30] Jordan Harbinger: They do.

[01:06:31] Scott Payne: I knew it. Which you hear a lot of is when you arrest 'em they go, oh hell. Hell, I knew you were undercover

[01:06:36] Jordan Harbinger: Uhhuh. Yeah. That's why you just sold me a RPG. 'cause you knew it. Yeah.

[01:06:39] Scott Payne: Yeah. You sold me cocaine for a year and a half.

[01:06:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Just because you knew. I don't get political on the show, so I'm curious if we can handle this in a nonpolitical way, but what do you think about all the cuts at F-B-I-A-T-F?

These organizations right now, I'm worried we're gonna end up with super strong organized crime groups or a terrorist attack because we're getting rid of all these qualified people.

[01:06:59] Scott Payne: The FBI could have used some cleaning up.

[01:07:01] Jordan Harbinger: That's an interesting perspective.

[01:07:03] Scott Payne: I came in under Louis, free in, in my opinion, that is the last real director the FBI's had.

Now he was also a phenomenal, he was also a former FBI agent and a former assistant United States attorney, which is gonna be a rare find. Kinda like finding a commander in chief that has military experience. You just don't see a lot anymore. But Louie took a boatload of desk positions outta headquarters and pushed them back to the field.

And we were a law enforcement agency. Now, Mueller came in and it was on the cusp of nine 11, so something had to be done. But in my opinion, and a lot of my peers and people I've worked with over the years that are law enforcement officers pushed us the wrong way. He wanted to make us an intelligence agency like little CIA within the United States, and we still work that stuff.

But at the end of the day, the FBI is a law enforcement organization under Mueller. You're taking people from Fortune 500 companies, Goldman Sachs, and you're making 'em in the top three or four positions of the FBI. What the hell do you know about law enforcement and national security? Seriously? And then you start dealing with all these matrix and threat assessments and whatnot.

I've got unbelievable friends who are unbelievable analysts and stuff, but I can tell you as a criminal investigator, all the cases I did that kind of noise and smoke never helped me on a single case. And Mueller created a boatload mower positions at headquarters, and it gets to the point to where you got a revolving door.

This isn't across the board, but generally speaking, your hard workers who love being case agents and building cases and putting bad people in jail, generally speaking, historically in my 23 years in the FBI, they don't go to headquarters and they don't move up to the top of the chain. Say you're in New York City and you wanna get outta New York City 'cause you can't stand it.

All right? You can put in for a desk and you can move to DC if you're willing to stay in the JA or hip a building, making ranks not as hard as it would be out in the field. And it got a little crazy like say you're putting in for a supervisor position. You write all these things that you've done, like all these cases you've ran, these task forces you've started or how you led by example or all these things.

You have these leadership skills you have to show, but you didn't do any headquarters town and you can have years and years of experience and hundreds of arrests and great cases that made great impacts in the areas you were in. But the person that puts in against you did a year at headquarters, they Trump you really, and it became a disconnect.

And you would always hear the argument of, it's not the rank and file, it's the disconnect between headquarters. I know plenty of people at headquarters that are unbelievable, but you get a situation like Peter stroke, McCabe Lisa Page, that was horrific. And if anybody thinks, oh, well that's just spewing fake news, bad news, whatever.

I'm telling you right now, it was absolutely wrong what they did and because of what they did. And the after action, when everybody comes in and does an investigation. Every agent and task force officer were mandated to take hours upon hours of training, mandatory training to show you and teach you what you're not supposed to do because it's what they learned from those investigations.

[01:10:21] Jordan Harbinger: What happened with those people. I don't, I'm not in the loop on that. That was the Russia hoax. I see all that

[01:10:25] Scott Payne: stuff when you get warrants, I would say, Hey, Jordan says this person is absolutely dirty, but I don't show that We investigated 10 other people that said Jordan's full of shit and he is been proven to be full of shit.

You gotta turn it all over.

[01:10:39] Jordan Harbinger: I see. So that was selective release of information,

[01:10:42] Scott Payne: but is it their fault should you be running a case outta headquarters? I never saw one. That was awesome. Not to knock headquarters, it's just that to be a certain age and be at the top of the FBI. You can't have worked the shit ton of cases at that age.

The math doesn't work. The math doesn't work. You could say you led stuff. If you're a supervisor of a squad and maybe you led some stuff, maybe you did the traditional training officer where I put you on my hip and we're gonna go work this case together, but I'm gonna show you how to do this. You can learn it, teach it, and go on.

But once you're an asac of a division or an SAC and you start moving up to these higher positions to say you're running a case and led a case, I'm not buying it. So there's some cleaning up that needs to be done. Look, for the longest it was DEA in the hot seat. It was a TF Fast in Furious and all these things in the hot seat.

But I will tell you in my personal opinion, since Comey, man, we took the baton and the B has not dropped it. There's so many great things. The B. But I still love the FBI. I'm pro FBI. And if you read the book, I don't bash the FBI at all. No,

[01:11:47] Jordan Harbinger: you don't. That's why I asked that question at the end. 'cause I was curious what your actual opinion was and you did not disappoint.

What keeps you up at night? Former FBI could be in any sort of subject matter. I don't care. What keeps you up at night? What are you worried about right now when it comes to this country or the FBI in general? That's a good question.

[01:12:05] Scott Payne: I haven't been asked that

[01:12:05] Jordan Harbinger: question. I should do this for a living.

[01:12:08] Scott Payne: It's almost as if you know what you're doing.

[01:12:10] Jordan Harbinger: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not get carried away.

[01:12:14] Scott Payne: I don't know Jordan. It's just the way my mind works. I'm a glass half full guy. I'm an optimist all the way. There's always gonna be another bad group. What I want people to understand is even if you don't like what we do, and my argument used to always be don't be mad at the law enforcement officer.

We're actually peace officers. It used to say on every car to serve and protect. We're just enforcing the law. If you don't like the law, change the law. But then I, we went, entered the realm where they're just picking and choosing what they wanna charge on, who and when. And a murderer gets a bond and a white collar guy doesn't.

I'm like, what the hell? You know, the world's upside down kind of thing. But I just want people to understand that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people. And it's been that way pretty much since the dawn of time. I've got relatives, I've got friends, I've got loved ones.

Some of 'em can't deal with that. They'll see one story and they're like, I can't believe something's so horrific. And I'm thinking, man, if you only knew, yeah, but you need us on the wall. Is every cop bad? Absolutely not. Have there been some bad cops that do horrific things? Yeah. And they should be buried under the jail, as far as I'm concerned.

But again, spreading knowledge, learning, because we can go back to the eighties. Same thing with a gang. Gang pops into town. I did it as a cop. Somebody said, I'm a member of the Crips. I remember in Greenville, South Carolina. I'm like, Crips. You need to go back to la. We don't have no gangs here. Guess what happened in two months?

They were full fledged in South Carolina. Wow. Because you put your blinders on. So keeping me up at night. Battling evil.

[01:13:45] Jordan Harbinger: Battling

[01:13:45] Scott Payne: evil.

[01:13:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's a lot of stuff you could be worried about, but like you said, glass half full. That's probably the only way you stay sane in your line of work, though. Glass half full.

Otherwise the whole world just looks like a pretty horrific place full of accelerationist and dudes missing fingers from their donkey party and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that would make you go nuts as it could have

[01:14:03] Scott Payne: been a good night for that guy. I don't know. Who knows, man, I'm not judging,

[01:14:06] Jordan Harbinger: but you're, but you're right.

You gotta have that glass half full kind of mentality. Otherwise your whole world is like that. And then what's the point of saving it?

[01:14:12] Scott Payne: It's a very good point, and since I've retired, I've been able to sit at tables where it's somebody completely different than my lifestyle on the opposite spectrum. But we start having a conversation and you share things like how often do you think it is that a uniform cop shows up and he is warm welcome.

I can tell you my experience. It wasn't that all the, I mean, most I got get outta my house. Why are you pulling me over? Could that wear on your psyche as a cop? Absolutely. There's all kinds of training out there and things you can do, but it still happens. It's human nature, you getting spit at and cussed at and disrespected and things that I would've in the circles I grew up in, to talk to somebody like that to their face and be able to walk away.

Not so much, but could that turn into now you see people dressed a certain way and you associate that with that behavior and now everybody becomes a piece of shit to you. It can happen. And then on the other spectrum. Maybe you grew up in the south side of Chicago, like my good buddy did in his experiences where cops were terrible and he couldn't stand the cops.

But we'd sit down and have conversations. I don't know, man. Me, my peers, mentors, people I've mentors. You look at it as a, uh, we're shepherds, right? Bullies of bullies, livestock, guardian dogs. I used to be an offensive lineman. I feel like I was a way better defensive lineman, but it is what it is. But I always said law enforcement to me is offensive lineman, because they don't want you till they need you.

If the team's winning, and it's because the receivers, the running backs and the quarterback are awesome, but if the team losing, it's 'cause the offensive line sucks. They don't get the credit, you know? So it's that same mentality, but yeah. Talking, sitting down at a table,

[01:15:53] Jordan Harbinger: spreading knowledge. Yeah. So far so good.

[01:15:55] Scott Payne: Yeah. It's okay for you to like something. I don't It's okay for me to like something You don't, we still get along.

[01:16:00] Jordan Harbinger: I can accept that. I suppose you'd like to eat. Yeah. Oh yeah. We have that in common too. Ba. Tell us about the goat sacrifice. How do you even end up at a situation where they're sacrificing a goat?

First of all, asking for a friend.

[01:16:13] Scott Payne: Yeah. This group that was in the base, pretty much everybody was Pagan. And again, nothing against Pagan. I got some great friends that are pagans, even though I'm a Christ follower, but again, they twist some of the Pagan stuff. Hitler used a lot of Norse mythology. That's right.

Raiders had lost art kind of stuff, but we were having pagan rituals and we were doing stuff, and they just kept getting more aggressive, and we ended up to this hate camp. In Halloween of 2019, Halloween, I remember the temperature dropped, like, I don't know, something 40, 50 degrees. It had not been that cold, and all of a sudden it was like 16 degrees.

Everything was ice. They talked about doing a sacrifice and I fell asleep in the truck for a little bit. 'cause you out there, you're freezing cold. You hop in the truck, the charger with the battery on your phone, the heater's on you. So I wake up to a banging on my window, Hey, be horse man. You're not gonna believe it.

You gotta see this, you gotta see this. And I get out, I'm like, what's going on? They're like, remember we talked about the ram? We got it. It ends up, they were supposed to go somewhere far away. They went a place, I dunno, like a mile down the road. The dude had three goats or rams in his backyard. They went there with all their Flex Tarn on and one of the other member's trucks bailed out, almost got caught, steal the goat, put it in the truck, bring it back.

And that's when I woke up.

[01:17:27] Jordan Harbinger: Oh geez. So this is someone's livestock or pet goat or whatever?

[01:17:30] Scott Payne: Yeah. Oh man. And the member that was gonna be leading the blot that night, his real name was William Bill Bro. But his middle name was Garfield after his grandfather and he named the goat. After Garfield and his grandfather, this thing is crapping all over the bed of the truck.

And I remember one of the base members, DEMA, he says, man, this thing's shitting all over the place. And I was like, well, hell, I would be too if a bunch of Neanderthals with black balaclavas and Flector machine guns jumped out and pulled me over here. And I remember watching and I'm thinking, man, we're getting ready to do this thing, I think.

And I go over to Eisen and I'm like, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he said, Hey, don't even think like that. We're showing this goat love. This love is gonna be sacrificed to Odin. It's going to Valhalla. It needs to know the love we have for it. And we just don't need any negative vibes, basically, is what he was saying.

I've made the joke, he didn't get it, but I'm doing the whole Talladega. I'm just like, I'm just gonna push that baseball down deep. Mm-hmm. Never gonna bring it up again. Gonna push it down. Never bring up me feeling sorry for the goat again. We're getting ready to do it. Or go down to the holy area, the ritual area, and.

I had some recording devices on, obviously, and my case team could listen. And for that, if I'm out in the field, there's a cover team out there. So I was out in the field four or five days. So there's a cover team running shifts and they're 24 hours on me, which I appreciate.

[01:18:50] Jordan Harbinger: Geez, are they just sitting in a van or are they pretending to camp nearby or something like that?

[01:18:54] Scott Payne: Let's just say a building that was no longer in use and they used that and brought in some generators and everything. Yeah. So I remember going over to my device and I lean in and I go, Hey, if you're listening, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to sacrifice this goat that they just stole. And I can't think of anything really to shut the op down.

They stole the goat. That's okay. That's a crime. But our federal, no. Is it sacrificing it? Animal cruelty if you eat it, Hunter's did. I'm, I'm doing all this in my head, right? Yeah. And I'm like, if you don't want me doing this, send me a sign. Hit me, reach out to me. Do something. I sit there quiet and I'm staring and I'm listening and it's quiet.

And I go, okay, looks like we're going down in the woods and we carry this thing down in the woods. Gar, I, it's a long walk, man. It's a little harrowing. 'cause you're doing that whole thing where you got like a lantern, not really a flashlight. So anybody we're carrying torches or whatever, anybody in a mile from us could see this glow walking through the woods, but you can't see anything past 10 feet,

[01:20:00] Jordan Harbinger: right?

[01:20:01] Scott Payne: So we get down there and Eisen starts the block and he's talking about how this is gonna be the beginning of the wild hunt, which in nor methodology, that's when Odin and a bunch of other guys just went on a rampage kicking everybody's tail and killing all the enemies. But in Eisen mind, in the base's mind, it was gonna be the kickoff to the Boogaloo and the wild hunt was gonna be us cleansing the world.

Eventually of non-whites. Again, not a lot of forethought or afterthought. Yeah. Like

[01:20:29] Jordan Harbinger: how's that gonna work?

[01:20:30] Scott Payne: But okay, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out as it goes. Yeah. So then he goes to sacrifice the goat, and now we're all in a circle around the goat and he's already said, look, we're gonna sacrifice this goat to Odin to go to Ball Hollow, and we can start this wild hunt, basically.

And somehow I'd ended up at the back of the goat, I don't know, rather, it wasn't smart, but I'm holding the back of the goat by its hind legs.

[01:20:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh God. That's how you get your fingers bit off, man.

[01:20:57] Scott Payne: That's it. I should have learned my lesson. I didn't take, I didn't carry that one with me, that little piece of knowledge.

So I'm holding the back of it and he's got basically a machete and he's raring back as hard as he can coming down practice swing. He's doing nice and slow. And he's like, it may take two hits and somebody finally says, just do it.

[01:21:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And

[01:21:16] Scott Payne: he rears back with everything he's got. Bam hits this goat right on the back strap, and you hear this loud thud, Jordan, I don't even know if it broke a hair on its back.

I don't know if it was a dull knife. Clearly the back strap on a ram or goat is very sturdy, and it was like, here the go go ba. I'm like, oh, I had that kind of movie experience where you see everything happening in your head. I'm like, I just saw this scene of blood going everywhere and just a vicious killing of this animal.

And then somebody says, do it again. Do it again. Oh man. And then somebody says, Hey, does anybody have a pistol? This one guy who had been up for 48 hours straight on Adderall, worked a third shift in Austin, Texas, drove nonstop to North Georgia, except for the second or two. He fell asleep in Alabama and hit somebody rear ended him.

He was probably the worst tactically sound person to handle a weapon, and he didn't listen to the rules. Peal and TMB, they ran a pretty tight ship as far as. Safety goes on the range. So I was very pleased with that for safety reasons, for myself, obviously. But when they asked, Hey, does anybody have a weapon?

That one guy zoomed that was like, I got mine. And even me and Luke both were like, what? Because he said, no weapons down there. We're gonna do the sacrifice kind of thing. So he pulls out his pistol, and I think Luke takes it. Somebody takes it out of his hands, thankfully hands it to Eisen. So we're still in a circle, and Eisen is gonna shoot the goat, but he kind of points towards the goat and then turns his head completely away.

And that's when the instructor come out of me. I'm like, whoa, you're supposed to look at what you're shooting, right? I'm no expert. Exactly. Right. And that's what I said, because he didn't even know what he's aiming at. And I'm like, Hey, look at what you're shooting at. We're all in a circle. Yeah. And he pops one right in his head, and when he pops in his head, you can, I'm even on the recording, you hear the goat hit the ground, but it kicks for several minutes and it's still kicking.

I said, Hey man, it might still be alive. I'm pretty sure it's dead. And I said, the love we were showing the goat and all it's going to valo. Let's make sure this is a peaceful transition. Air quotation. Sure. Geez. So they put another bullet in it, and then somebody finally, you can hear on the, somebody's like, oh, and now it's definitely dead.

And then they commenced to slicing it throat and filling the glass full of his blood and passing it around in the circle. Eisen had brought some acid and I ended up holding the flashlight for Eisen as he's tearing tabs of acid off. Everybody's on their knees in the circle, and he would go up and give them the tab under their tongue, and then they would drink the blood and supposed to help with your shaman experience.

That

[01:23:55] Jordan Harbinger: doesn't sound like an ancient pagan ritual to drop an acid. Yeah. It's 2019 at that point, right? Updated version.

[01:24:02] Scott Payne: Yeah. And no peyote needed. Just a little tab.

[01:24:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:24:05] Scott Payne: We go around, not everybody does the uh, acid. Of course, I didn't. But when the glass got to me to drink the blood, by that time it was coagulating, man.

It was just clots of chunky yolk looking. I was like, man, I do not wanna drink that.

[01:24:20] Jordan Harbinger: No.

[01:24:20] Scott Payne: And I think I got the confirmation from pestilence, but I just took my finger, dumped it down in the blood, pulled it out, stuck in my mouth and sucked all the blood off. Oh my God. And then they threw all the guts out into the creek and chopped the head of the gar off.

We carried the head around for the next four days. Four days. Didn't it start to smell? Oh yeah. Three or four days. Yeah. So that was Halloween. That was Thursday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah. And then when we all left out Sunday, Luke ended up cleaning the skull and it ended up being, I mean, he had a picture of it.

It's out there somewhere. I think Vice posted it, but it's a picture. It's. It's got some runes on it, but it's also got like swastikas and supremacist symbols on it, and the one side of the goat's head is Mayan comp. Hitler's book to the other side is the siege book from James Mason. Again, you get a parent that says, I thought it was a phase.

I thought he was just going through a phase. Really a phase man coming out here training all the time, wearing flexor. You've heard all the supremacy talk. You've heard the eight speech that in your son's room. Come on man. Geez. See something. Say something. See something. Say something.

[01:25:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Parents need to be on the lookout for this stuff.

I remember a long time ago when I, I lived in Serbia and I remember my boss, she said, Hey, I need your advice on something. I found this pamphlet in my kid's room. He was probably like 12, 13, and it was some sort of like Nazi propaganda thing. And she's like, what do I do? Because she's the type who would just like yell and she's tough.

She was a gorilla fighter and stuff, so she's like, I feel like I should ask your opinion. I said, ask him where he got it, because this seems like the kind of thing that got handed to him, not that he sought out. And it turned out that some kids had given it to him and she was like, okay, I gotta report this to the school.

'cause these kids are handing out Nazi propaganda in Serbia. But she said, I really appreciate this because if I had yelled at him, knowing him, he was also stubborn. He was just like her. He would've dug in his heels and been like, my mom hates it. Maybe I need to go and find out more about all this stuff.

So it's strange how you gotta handle some of this stuff, but you really do have to pay attention to it. Right, because the idea is to find that disaffected youth and infect their brains with this crap and then get them in the group.

[01:26:29] Scott Payne: Yes. Their group said that I've infiltrated and five months of spewing hate.

Thousands of posts every day. We met together, shot a few weapons, but they weren't gonna go out and do anything. And that's in the America, that's First Amendment protected. But in the base, we uncovered several murder plots and they were wanting to kick off the boogaloo and they were gonna be possible murders in the Virginia area, murders in the Georgia area, members of the base and my cell, and around the Baltimore stuff, they were already looking at land in the Appalachian Mountains to create their own ethnostate.

The north mid region was already looking at the upper peninsula of Michigan and had some land that they were looking at to create. Owned a pretty significant amount of property in the Pacific Northwest. They were looking at doing anno state there. So yeah, man. But again, if you get to the point to where you are gonna be committing crimes and hurting innocent people, we gotta step in and stop.

I wish we could just stop to hate altogether, but what do you do?

[01:27:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You did put in plenty of time going after these folks, and I think we're all better off for it. Scott Payne, thank you very much for coming back. Man, this is always so fascinating. I, I really appreciate you coming on and you have a good sense of humor about all this.

Again, I think that's probably part of what keeps you sane when you got goat, head blood or whatever, all over you. Again, Scott Payne, thank you so much for coming back on the show, man. Thank you, buddy. Here's a preview of my conversation with one of Al-Qaeda's most respected bomb and poison makers who swore allegiance to Osama Bin Laden himself.

Here's a quick listen.

[01:28:04] JHS Clip: We took so many prisoners, 80 of them were taken to a clearing. And it was decided there and then that these people will have to pay for the crimes. What they did, seeing the blood thirsty nature of people who just until a year ago, I used to see them as sweet, tender, decent, good people suddenly basically became people who would use chainsaws.

To dismember these people alive. How could one year in Bosnia, one year of ugly conflict turn these wonderful souls into ugly blood thirsty individuals? When I went to sleep that night, all I could think about was how could I unsee what I've seen? None other than the mastermind of nine 11 Mohamed, he said to us, you should go to Afghanistan, where the training camps are reopening to become good at bomb making, to become good at urban warfare, to become good at assassinations, at kidnapping.

A new kind of war that will never be fought in the mountains anymore, but it'll be fought in every urban center from the pole to the pole suddenly, you know, I thought that the nature of the war is changing from, you know, fighting in the mountains of Bosnia. I mean, basically we are talking about gassing people in cinemas and nightclub and trains.

Of course, that was unsettling, but I thought this is just the ranting of one insane individual. Alqaeda carried out its first serious attack against American interest. Everyone was jubilant in the camps. They were firing bullets into the air, you know, in celebration and shouting. A, we are no longer just a bunch of freedom fighters.

We are now bonafide terrorists.

[01:29:49] Jordan Harbinger: To hear why and how. Amen. Dean eventually switched sides from being a jihadi to spending eight years as an MI six spy trying to take Al-Qaeda down from the inside. Check out episode 3 8 3 on the Jordan Harbinger show. The book has a lot more, I mean, the goat sacrifice alone is, is worth the read.

I suppose you could say white nationalist violence has doubled since Charlottesville. The far right, especially violence is on the rise. We're seeing a lot more that we're probably going to see a lot more of that as well. I'm not saying the other side doesn't engage in violence. All these people get so mad at the left does it too?

Yeah. There's a just a lot more from these white nationalists that we need to start paying attention to. What's so ironic to me, and I mentioned this a little bit during the show, these guys are angry because they feel that white men are being marginalized, so they want an ethnic state full of white men.

Okay, just let's leave aside the ridiculousness of a lot of these claims. What these geniuses don't realize is that then these guys would once again be at the bottom rung of any white ethnostate. They would be continue to be marginalized because they're virtually useless in society. They're uneducated, they're dumb, they're by the descriptions of the book, certainly not in very good shape, inbred kind of weirdos physically, mentally.

These guys are the dregs of society. Any society of any color or colors is not going to put these guys at the top. So it's, it's all just a LARPing fantasy based on violence. It's really pathetic in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make it any less dangerous. The book is available now. Code name, pale Horse.

You'll find all the links to Scott here in the show notes on the website@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Our newsletter wee bit wiser, runs every Wednesday, almost every Wednesday.

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