1138: Her Exposed Bi Affair? It’s Over! She Swears! | Feedback Friday

1138: Her Exposed Bi Affair? It's Over! She Swears! | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the little chocolate lift on your pillow during this existential turndown service, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, this is about the bedroom.

[00:00:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I came up with this one while I was standing at your place last week.

I felt like I was in a hotel except it was my friend's house. Pretty sweet. Little gift on the pillow. Essential oils diffuser, obviously. I'm not even kidding about that, by the way, folks, you did not turn that on. It was just there. No, it was just there. Salt lamp in the corner, luggage rack. Your Trip Advisor review is gonna be fire.

I appreciate that. I'm glad you enjoyed your stay at Chez Gaby. Five stars, man. Best oatmeal of my life. Strong couch. My only complaint, hard to wedge all my protein shakes in between dozens of boxes of kidney beans in the fridge.

[00:00:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what you get when you book with points. I don't know what to tell you.

[00:00:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that one's on me. Yeah. I'm booking through AMEX Travel next time. There you go. For the late checkout. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, war correspondents, neuro scientists, rocket scientists, a lot of scientists, astronauts, cold case homicide investigators. This week we had former ATF agent Jay Dobbins, back on the show.

You guys loved my last interview with him. There was so much more to talk about because I actually ended it early 'cause it was like the perfect ending rarely comes along in an interview and I was like, I can't. Go past this point. So I decided to do another round with him. Round two. Once again, there was so much to talk about.

We talked about the specifics of his undercover operation to take down the Hells Angels biker gang among other operations and stories from his career. It's a great storyteller and done a lot to fight crime. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, and generally stroll through the brambles and thickets in this spooky forest of WTF.

And by the way, a few weeks back, I recommended chia seed pudding to you guys. It has some protein. It tastes good. It's easy to make. What I didn't tell you when I mentioned it is before I got into this stuff, you know, I've been having my blood work done probably every 10 weeks for the past couple years.

My cholesterol was not good. The LDL cholesterol, the bad cholesterol, it went from like 68 to 78, 88, 98, 1 19. Not good, especially for somebody who doesn't eat a ton of junk at all. That's just a bad trend. I. And that happened for about a year. And then I threw chia seed pudding in the mix and I've eaten it pretty much every single day since I had my last blood work or previous blood work.

And as of my latest blood work, my LDL went from one 19 to 78, so I dropped 41 point, I mean crazy amount. And that's enormous. I mean that's like 30% plus drop. And I made basically just that one big change to my diet since my January blood work, the daily chia seed pudding is loaded with soluble fiber enough for a whole day's RDA in just that one meal.

And I wasn't getting enough fiber. That's it. I haven't changed anything else. No medications, nothing. Look, can it be something else? Of course, I'm not gonna give medical advice. Bodies are weird, they're mysterious. Obviously no one can pinpoint with a hundred percent certainty that it was the chia seeds, but in two months my LDL could be back up and it was just some weird glitch and I'm like, Hey guys, wasn't the chia seed pudding?

But what I will say is. Most of us, especially Americans, we don't get nearly enough soluble fiber. Not the stuff you take that makes you poop, not the stuff. You can't just chew it or digest it. This is the stuff that ends up in your blood. And I measured and I was getting less than 10% of the US RDA for fiber before I started eating this stuff.

And now I'm getting over a hundred percent each day. So I'm not saying it's the chia seed pudding, but I'm hinting strongly that it very well may be the chia seed pudding. So if you're struggling with some rising LDL and your doctor thinks it could be the lack of soluble fiber, I would say give this a shot chia seed pudding, saving lives over here and it tastes good.

So it's not like, oh God, I gotta eat more fiber in. You're putting broccoli in the blender and choking it down every day. This is the way to do it. Alright, as always, we've got some fun ones. We've got some doozies. Can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabriel, two years ago, my wife became close friends with another woman.

We also hung out with her and her husband regularly. In that time, I suspected something was off. My wife often took private calls with this friend and once during a party I had to force open our locked bedroom door and found her friend leaning against it while my wife was in the en suite bathroom. I never received a convincing explanation of what they were doing.

[00:04:27] Jordan Harbinger: It's funny because if this happened at a party in LA I'd be like they were doing cocaine. I don't know. Maybe there's more of the letter. So here we go. Gabe, just to clarify, this is a man, right? And his wife was in the bathroom with another woman?

[00:04:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: As far as I can tell, man. Married to woman? Yes. Okay, got it.

So he goes on to understand what was happening. I recorded our bedroom for a couple of weeks and even at one point involved my 17-year-old son as I suspected that he had witnessed them kiss.

[00:04:55] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Oof. So poor kid. I don't know how I feel about that. Gabe, this kind of reminds me of the niece from a couple weeks ago who found out her dad was cheating.

Yes. Totally not something you want your child learning about you. No. I guess that's on the wife since she apparently kissed her friend in front of her son. But

[00:05:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do wonder what he means by involved his son.

[00:05:15] Jordan Harbinger: Did the son help him set up the cameras in the bedroom right, or whatever the recording thing was?

[00:05:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Did he just ask him to like, keep an eye on mom in general? Did you just ask him like, Hey, do you know anything about mom? Did you see anything weird? Hopefully

[00:05:27] Jordan Harbinger: it, it's unfortunate, but maybe he needed his son's help to prove this. I just, uh, it's messy at best.

[00:05:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: I eventually confronted my wife and she dismissed my concerns, was very angry that our son was involved, and claimed that I had a mental problem.

I stopped recording the bedroom, but I was still suspicious. Months later, I brought my concerns to this friend's husband and was shocked to learn that he shared similar suspicions and had a strong desire to install cameras in his house. I have some used ones that are great for this purpose. Sell them straight to 'em.

I'll help you set them up. My son's really good at it. Yeah. Months after that, I finally confirmed their emotional and physical relationship by finding a conversation on my wife's phone that hadn't been deleted.

[00:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So she turned this around on you, gaslighted, and you were right all along. Tale as old as time.

It's funny because seriously turning shit around on the other person is the classic response. In situations like this, I feel like every cheating story on Reddit goes exactly like this. I confronted her and she said, you have a mental problem. You need therapy, and you're paranoid and duh. And everyone's like, they're doing it.

They're cheating on you.

[00:06:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. It is textbook definition of gaslighting. Yes. Her friend's, marriage ended immediately. My wife claims that she's sorry and is now helping her friend, quote as a friend, navigate her divorce.

[00:06:45] JHS Clip: Ah

[00:06:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: ha. That's where that goes. Oh, you are lit up right now. Look at that smile.

You're so happy about that sound. That's exactly where that goes. I've been sitting on that one for literally years at this point. Through my initial spying, I discovered that her friend had serious emotional trauma and a history of cocaine use, which had strained her marriage. Wow. Is that what they were doing in the bathroom?

So they were doing blow in the bathroom. It could be potentially unclear. They could have been doing something potentially worse.

[00:07:16] Jordan Harbinger: What's worse than cocaine?

[00:07:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just kidding.

[00:07:19] Jordan Harbinger: How? How much time do we have? How much do you like cocaine? There's a lot of things that can be worse than cocaine if you really like cocaine.

Anyway, that's not what the question's about. Gabriel, you weirdo.

[00:07:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: I discovered that her friend had serious emotional trauma and a history of cocaine use, which had strained her marriage. My wife had taken on the role of counselor for her, which might explain some of the closeness. Sure. But it doesn't fully address the betrayal.

I feel. I know it was wrong to invade my wife's privacy and it caused me emotional trauma to do so. But how does one confirm their suspicions otherwise? And should I trust her that they are only friends now? Signed trying to discuss whether I can still trust when my wife is still pretty sauce.

[00:08:01] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, what a mess.

It was nice of her to try and get rid of her friend's cocaine by shoving it up her nose. But the rest of this is a terrible solid favor. Yeah. Solid favor for a friend. First of all, I am very sorry that your wife had this affair, that she hurt you, that she created a situation that involved your son, that she ruined, not one, but two marriages.

Think about that, although that's also her friend's fault, that woman clearly has some big issues. This is all very messy, very painful. I can hear how difficult and confusing this is for you. It just sucks, man, and I feel for her husband too. Fascinating that both of you had the same suspicions and the same instincts about how to prove what was going on, and I guess it's not that unusual to wanna get to the bottom of something and video evidence 2025.

Gabe, I found it interesting. When he said that his wife had taken on the role of counselor for this woman, and maybe that explains why they were so close, but it doesn't fully address the betrayal that he feels. And I'm going, of course it doesn't. These are two totally different things.

[00:08:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, they sure are.

So what you're getting at is, is he questioning his right to feel hurt because this other woman needed support and his wife played that role for her? Is that what you're saying?

[00:09:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's kind of the sense I get, but it, it was a cover for whatever was going

[00:09:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: on. Yeah. And it doesn't change the fact that they were getting down in the en suite bathroom probably, or unclear.

Now I'm confused about what was happening in the bathroom, making out in the hallway or whatever they were doing.

[00:09:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course not. And we all know the difference between friends and lovers. It doesn't matter if his wife was this woman's confidant, it became romantic and she cheated on him.

[00:09:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: But it might be meaningful that he's trying to calibrate his anger a little bit, his hurt because this other woman needed support

[00:09:32] Jordan Harbinger: and I think so he's a nice person for doing that, but I had to comment on that.

It might be something for him to consider. Agreed. Look, I know you feel conflicted about spying on your wife, and I totally get why it's an icky feeling, but then, yeah. How else do you confirm your suspicions? Like you said, there are more invasive and less invasive ways to dig around, I guess. Like talking to this woman's husband, for example, that helps confirm your suspicions.

And you can do stuff like that before you go through your partner's phone or set up cameras in the bedroom. But man, if you're looking for slam dunk proof, I. I guess you kind of have to invade someone's privacy. The other thing you don't wanna do, Gabriel, thinking about this. Now what you don't wanna do is go and ask the husband and he's like, oh, that's weird.

And then he decides to just confront his wife immediately. And then if you set up cameras in the bedroom, your wife's like, I heard from my lover that her husband yelled at her. So I know that you think, you know, you kind of want them to not know that, you know? Right. So if you're looking for that slam dunk proof, that evidence, you really have to invade someone's privacy in a semi gross way that would be wildly inappropriate.

Otherwise, obviously the ideal scenario is to be in a marriage where you don't have those doubts in the first place, right? Where there's total trust and honesty and you don't feel the need to snoop. Of course, man, the second you're knocking on your own bedroom door and your wife and her friend are inside and they won't open them up.

And when you barge in, the friend's all suss and your wife is adjusting her blouse in the bathroom or whatever. The second your son is like, I might've seen them kissing in the pantry. I think you have license to dig around a little bit more. It's awkward, it's unsavory. But if your wife is gaslighting you, when you confront her and she's not going, look through my phone, talk to my friend.

If she's not an open book, which she obviously wouldn't be because she's cheating. I'm not sure what else you're supposed to do. You had to find that text thread to know that you were right and you were not crazy when she was trying to make you feel like you were crazy. But let's talk about your other question, 'cause that's really the issue here.

Should you trust that they are only friends now?

[00:11:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Based on the information you've shared with us, I don't think I would.

[00:11:24] Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna just bold highlight the hell no, they're still spending time together. Why would the romantic element stop if they're still hanging out?

[00:11:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, unless something changed between them and they've arrived at a new place, which I guess that's possible.

[00:11:36] Jordan Harbinger: To be fair, I do think it's probably more likely for two women to go back to being friends than say a man and a woman. But I mean, maybe that's naive.

[00:11:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Given that this was an affair, it's messy and confusing to still be spending time, especially this much time with this person, and if she's saying this because she wants to get back together with our friend here, then continuing to spend time with this woman, not exactly helping things.

No, it's counterproductive and disrespectful. It doesn't sound like she's doing anything to show him. Look, we're not involved anymore. I've closed that door. Sorry. Terrible metaphor, given the circumstances. I apologize for that. But like I'm in therapy. I'm trying to figure out why I did this. Yeah, she's not, I'm not hearing that.

[00:12:13] Jordan Harbinger: She's not doing any of that. At least not in the letter. So I feel like this isn't even the right question. The right question is do I still want to be in this marriage? Are we genuinely working on things? Are we resolving anything? Or is it time to part ways and start building my own life? Based on what you've shared with us, I think it probably is time to part ways.

I'm not hearing anything to suggest that your wife is working on things on her own or with you. I'm not hearing that she's said goodbye to this woman so she can refocus on you. I'm not hearing that you're particularly keen to work on things. So honestly, I'm a bit puzzled by why it matters whether she's telling the truth or not about this other woman outside of your curiosity.

Of course. But if you're asking because you think there's a chance of saving the marriage, then you have to be asking these questions and you have to have a partner who's equally invested in working on things. If she's off doing her own thing and you're over here wondering what's going on, I'm not really sure what's left to work on.

I'm sure that's painful. It's also clarifying.

[00:13:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm still thinking about his son, Jordan. I'm wondering why he involved him if it was really the only option he felt he had, or if there was maybe more to that somehow.

[00:13:19] Jordan Harbinger: Look, I get it. If you don't know how anything technological works and your son is a tech genius, I get asking for help.

I don't love it. Pick someone else, but I get it. But if he ask his son for help because he needed backup and solidarity, if he was essentially giving his son a role on his team against his mother, he's recruiting his child into this drama that all else being equal, he should be protecting his child from.

And I don't have teenagers or older kids, so you know, parents will have their own opinions on this maybe, but I think I'm right. So I'm not exactly sure what to make of this. I guess I'm just realizing that's another subplot in this story that makes things even more complicated than they are. 'cause it's not our friend hears fault that his wife cheated on him, but he can control who he brings that information to and who he involves.

[00:14:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: His son is 17, so he is almost an adult, but still, even if he were like 45 years old and his parents were going through this, I still think a situation like this calls for some boundaries, some thoughtfulness,

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: because I'm sure, frankly all this is definitely doing a number on a kid, especially a kid that age.

[00:14:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's like a smack in the middle of his parents' separation because mom cheated and he potentially knew before dad did. It's just messy. Yeah. The other thing that's in the background of the story is the wife's orientation. He didn't comment on that, so. I'm not sure if he knew that his wife was into women or if that was news to him, but it is interesting that that isn't a bigger part of the letter

[00:14:38] Jordan Harbinger: either he knew his wife was bi or closeted gay before, or her orientation is just less important to him than the fact that she cheated.

But if I were in this guy's shoes, I think my curiosity would be even greater slash equal to my hurt, at least in the beginning.

[00:14:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Her orientation does not change the fact that she cheated on our friend here, but just to acknowledge every possible angle here. If she is in the process of figuring out her orientation, maybe this affair was part of that, and she's confused.

Maybe she's exploring something that's new for her. Again, doesn't forgive what she's done to him. Definitely doesn't justify the gaslighting, but I guess maybe we can make a little room for the possibility and it's just a possibility. I could be totally wrong. That his wife is trying to figure herself out, and it's just happening in this very messy, imperfect, and ultimately hurtful way.

[00:15:28] Jordan Harbinger: Fair enough. I still think she's done a lot of damage here, man, but I understand that people can do hurtful things when they're really confused, so I hear that. I am very sorry that this happened, man, but obviously it kind of had to happen because something's not right here. This is not a healthy marriage.

Time to take stock of things, confront some hard facts and accept that you just might not know the full story about your wife and this other woman these days, but more importantly, you might not actually need to know in order to make the right call and good luck. All right. Now we are gonna come out of the closet with some scandalously good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help Therapy can feel like a big investment. And I get it. It's not easy to prioritize something that feels a little abstract, right? But your mental health is just as important as your physical health. If your back was hurting every freaking day, you'd go do something about it.

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[00:17:01] Jen Harbinger: Your wellbeing is worth it. Visit better help.com/jordan to get 10% off your first month. That's better help hlp.com/jordan.

[00:17:10] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show. All right, back to feedback Friday. Okay, next up Gabe.

[00:18:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. After a long fraught fertility journey, my brother and his wife Chelsea, are pregnant. They had a pretty devastating miscarriage and Chelsea was depressed for a year afterward.

Now that they're out of the woods and in the second trimester, we've all been super excited for the new baby and so happy for them. I've mentioned a few times that I'd like to plan the baby shower or help with it, and Chelsea has declined multiple times saying she wants to do it herself. My mom wanted to help too, but I told her that Chelsea says she wants to do it.

Let's not be overbearing. Then this past weekend Chelsea told me that she was talking to her friends about how she basically has no one to help her with the shower and that her friends thought it was ridiculous that we weren't helping. She told you that that's a move. I was shocked. I reminded her that I had asked a bunch of times, including just a few days before she talked to her friends.

I. And she declined. I also told her again that I would love to play on the shower. Then she started talking about how my mom hasn't asked her either and how her own mom is terrible at throwing parties. I explained that it was my fault. My mom hadn't asked because I assumed she didn't want my mom helping either.

She deflected at that point and said she just didn't know what she wanted when I had asked her,

[00:19:41] Jordan Harbinger: okay, she does obviously remember that you asked Come on, but she's chalking this up to what? Indecision this doesn't add up, doesn't make sense. Sounds to me like she's not really taking in your offer slash She deliberately told her friends that she was getting zero help so that she could get sympathy from them, like when no one's helping me.

[00:20:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: One of her friends is an amazing party planner and I would definitely pick her over me to do this, although this friend lives six hours away and has a new baby herself. I wanted to be involved because I love my sister-in-law and my brother, and I'm over the moon about the new baby, but it doesn't hurt my feelings if she'd rather have her friends throw the shower.

What bothers me is how she's created this story about being kind of a victim in all of this. That we are uncaring in-laws and her mother won't help her. And she's telling this to people I know.

[00:20:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's super annoying. And that's the real problem.

[00:20:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: This isn't the first time Chelsea has done something toxic.

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, surprise. Surprise. All right, let's hear it.

[00:20:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: She planned her destination wedding right on top of my wedding. Oh, that's a move.

[00:20:45] Jordan Harbinger: That is also a move, my goodness,

[00:20:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: and invited my husband's ex to do her hair for it, despite not knowing this woman well, or being a client of hers when our cousin is a professional hairstylist and was willing to do it for free.

[00:21:00] Jordan Harbinger: What on earth This is so obviously transparently deliberate. Oh my God. Okay. First of all, so she plans her wedding in another city or another country when her own sister-in-law is also getting married at the same time. Of course, there's probably a ton of overlap between those guest lists. This is so bizarre, man.

[00:21:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:21:18] Jordan Harbinger: That's a

[00:21:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: problem, right? That's

[00:21:20] Jordan Harbinger: almost

[00:21:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: cartoonishly rude. Yeah. That means like, I'm gonna plan my wedding so that people have to choose between us and only go to one

[00:21:26] Jordan Harbinger: Look. We're gonna find out who likes us more, and then we're gonna cut the other people out of our lives and complain about them.

[00:21:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: If it were a cousin or a second cousin, maybe I could be like, dates are hard to get, or whatever, but your sister-in-law, her husband is this woman's brother.

That's weird.

[00:21:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This so strange. I'm almost having trouble believing somebody would do that, but of course, Chelsea did. Also hiring our friend. Here's husband's ex to do her hair. That means she wanted there to be some kind of drama between her hairstylist and a guest at the wedding.

[00:21:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. It's again, like you said, hard for me to wrap my head around, unless her friend and her husband couldn't go to her wedding, so it wasn't an issue.

[00:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. But then she didn't take the free hairstyling from the cousin that offered it. She had to pick that one hairstyle. Come on, man. Yeah,

[00:22:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: or maybe that hairstylist was the only one in their state who could do a. Perfect. Twisted up to, or whatever. I don't know. I'm grasping at reasons.

[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: It's a destination wedding, though.

I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. The only perfect ballerina bun in their town, I just, I doubt it. So she'd rather spend more money to create an awkward situation than have her cousin, who's a professional, do it for free. Maybe I'm stuck on the money thing, but none of this makes sense.

[00:22:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Kind of speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[00:22:33] Jordan Harbinger: More volumes than her hair on that day. Yes. Yeah. Well, depending on who did the hair, but Yeah. Depends on who did the hair. That's right. Every ounce of my being is going, this person is a nightmare. But I know I should hold off until you finish reading because it probably gets worse. Yeah. God knows what else is new.

She

[00:22:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: is also been such a bully to my sister that my sister wants nothing to do with her. This has taken a toll on my sister's relationship with my brother, who she used to be really close with. That sucks. That sucks. But it's good to know because

[00:23:00] Jordan Harbinger: it's not just you, which is somehow better.

[00:23:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I have a really great relationship with my brother, so it's been better for me and our family to just ignore Chelsea's behavior.

Now she wants me to help her friend plan the shower. I can't tell if she's asking because I said she was wrong about not having help or because she feels like she has to. Now. She's also said some mean things to me about her friend's party planning ideas, which makes me feel like she's likely saying some mean things about me to her friend.

[00:23:28] Jordan Harbinger: Unfortunately, that's almost certainly true whenever I notice people do something like that, especially gossip, I always try to make a mental note of it. Jen's really big on this. They'd probably spill the tea about me if they had some juicy goss. Not to feed your paranoia, but I think it's smart to clock that.

Like I said, Jen's always, whenever anybody says something negative about somebody, if it not, maybe not just one thing, but like a pattern of this, Jen's always like, don't say anything to this person. That's important because they always, they're shit talker and they're gonna talk about

[00:23:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: you probably a wise policy.

So she goes on, part of me wants to address this head on. I want to tell her that it hurt me that she said those things, that it's really okay if she doesn't want me involved, but that what she's saying to her friends is dishonest. I also wanna do this with my brother present because I feel like I need someone there as a witness because now I know that she makes up stories, but another part of me thinks I should just let it go.

She and my brother have had such a heartbreaking journey and I don't wanna make waves. This is supposed to be about her and I'm making it about me.

[00:24:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm gonna disagree with you there. You've been making it largely about her for a long time. Based on what you've shared. You're a nice person. I appreciate that about you.

You don't wanna. You don't wanna kick someone when they're down, et cetera. Maybe you haven't been making it about you enough, but look, I'm gonna hold off. You're nicer than me, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:24:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Here we are at the end. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? What's the best way forward? Signed planning the shower without getting drenched.

I.

[00:24:52] Jordan Harbinger: No, I think it's a fairly large Australian termite mound. You know those? Those ones that are like six and a half feet tall or whatever. Strong metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Extreme. Wow. So when you started off, you said that Chelsea had a devastating miscarriage. She was depressed for a year. Look, I was fully on her side when you said that.

Dude, I was on team Chelsea. I was like this poor woman. That's tough. This poor woman. I've had friends who go through that. They don't leave their apartment for four months. I mean, it's bad news. It's sad. That's a really painful thing to go through. We don't know the circumstances. We don't know how far along she was.

We don't know what she was going through leading up to the miscarriage. I'm curious about all that, but losing a pregnancy is an objectively horrible thing to go through. It can be quite traumatic. I really do feel for her There. But then you started talking about how she's handled this whole baby shower thing, and I was like, okay, I know you went through something awful.

Things are looking good now. None of that explains this behavior. And then you shared all the wedding stuff. The fact that she bullied your sister to the point where your sister's like, I'm drawing up the hard line. I'm not talking to her again. That also damaged your sister's relationship with your brother,

[00:25:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: all of which, by the way, apparently happened before the miscarriage.

[00:25:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Okay.

[00:25:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not like she can pin all of this questionable behavior on that.

[00:25:59] Jordan Harbinger: That is a good point. It's not like she was an angel before and then she went through this loss and it did a number on her mental health and she has unresolved trauma and now she's acting out. She honestly just sounds kind of mean.

And then there's this latest drama with her friend who's planning to shower. So my reaction earlier was more or less, right? I think Chelsea is a little bit of a nightmare. Now, look, there are two ways to respond to a person like this. The brutal obvious one is to go, Hey, you're acting like an A-hole.

Maybe you are an a-hole. You're selfish, you're mendacious, you're a little nuts. You're driving your friends and family away. You need to take a hard look at yourself. And then there's the more compassionate lens, which is to say, people don't behave like this unless there's something wrong. They're in pain, they're confused, they're insecure, whatever it is.

Obviously both can be true. Me personally, I find it hard to have a lot of empathy for people who act as egregiously. It's so extreme. It lacks self-awareness. It's so unselfaware and unnecessary. You do this once or twice. I'm in your sister's camp. Screw you. I'm done. But I've also learned to make more room over the years for some forgiveness and empathy for these folks.

'cause again, you know, pathological people, they're always kind of messed up underneath. That doesn't mean you have to continue to put up with them, though. It doesn't mean you don't say something. It just means that you can be appropriately judgmental and compassionate at the same time. So, to answer your question, no, you're not making a mountain out of a molehill.

In fact, I feel like you haven't made this into enough of a mountain, especially since it's coming from somebody in your own family. Okay, fine. She's your sister-in-law. So maybe it's harder to know how much to push back, but still it's a problem I. And you said that it's better for me and our family to just ignore Chelsea's behavior, which is another way of saying that all of you, except your sister, have basically agreed to pretend that this isn't as bad as it is, and given her a ton of leeway to be difficult and hurtful and frankly just super irritating.

That's right. And I understand that to some degree, the frustrating thing about personalities like this is they don't have enough self-awareness to realize what they're doing. Most of the time, they don't have the ability to regulate themselves in a mature adult fashion. So it, it's on the normal people, it's on us it to cramp around them so you can keep things on an even keel.

And the problem, as you're finding out. That only enables these people further because it's so intimidating and awkward to say, Hey, you are kind of a problem. You need to hear some things. So they just keep doing what they do with very few consequences until they wake up one day and go, oh crap, why have I driven everyone away?

And even then, they might not even register that as a problem depending on how severe they are. Some people's narcissism is so great, they can't even entertain the idea that they might be the reason people don't wanna be around them. They just blame everyone else for one reason or another. Or it goes through this filter of like, oh, everyone abandons me.

And unfortunately, I've known a number of people like this over the years that they never seem to see that they are the common denominator.

[00:28:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: We are hearing that narrative, aren't we? With the whole baby shower thing Multiple times. Our friend here offered to help and it seems that Chelsea couldn't even register that invitation.

[00:28:58] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Her victimhood is making it impossible for her to see her own behavior, which again, is super disturbing because you have to literally ignore multiple offers in order to preserve the narrative, the story that no one's there for you.

[00:29:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: But to your point a moment ago, if that narrative is an essential one to you, then it's probably because you've been hurt in some way.

So she must be getting more out of the belief that no one is really there for her than she thinks she would get by accepting their help and having the baby shower that she says she wants.

[00:29:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and that's why Chelsea is a tough case. I bet we don't even know the half of it. So what is the best way forward as it relates to the baby shower?

I think you have a choice. You either decide that you wanna help her friend plan the shower, and you let all the crazy roll off your back and you collaborate really well with this other friend who's probably going through a version of what you're going through too. She might be a solid partner to you in all this.

You just get through this and then you're done, which will involve cramping around your sister-in-law for just a little while longer. Or you bow out and you say, Hey, I'm sorry you're making it really hard for me to be there for you. And then you have to deal with the implications of that. 'cause of course that's gonna further her story.

Like your sister bailed on planning our shower. We, you're gonna hear that.

[00:30:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think the real question is, how do I handle this person in general in my life beyond the shower? The problem with all of this is you guys are walking on eggshells because you don't want to end up on the wrong side of Chelsea.

You don't wanna make waves, and you also don't wanna compromise your relationship with your brother. And I get it, it sucks that standing up to her might mean not being as close with him, but that's also because he is probably cramping around her too.

[00:30:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. Everybody walking on eggshells and these days, that's expensive.

Um, so man, these dad jokes are so dumb. All right. Hitting you in the wallet and the heart these days. That's right. Yeah. You gotta go to Costco. Okay. So he gotta get there early. So he is a massive blind spot about, oh, before they

[00:30:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: sell out of dad jokes. Is that it?

[00:30:51] Jordan Harbinger: Or he has a massive blind spot about her because it's his wife.

[00:30:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, fair. But he obviously knows that at least one other important person in his life, his other sister won't talk to his wife anymore.

[00:31:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh

[00:31:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: my gosh. And he's probably having to overlook a ton of questionable behavior in order to keep his marriage intact.

[00:31:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I would not wanna be in this guy's shoes, man. He's having a baby with this person and he is probably like, please let this be the end of this nonsense.

[00:31:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's how a lot of families operate and then everyone else pays the price. Whereas if he were willing to say, honey, I love you. I am here for you.

I'm on your team, but I'm seeing these things in my family. There are a few things you need to look at. I think your relationships with my sisters could be better. You seem to have this narrative that they don't wanna help all of that. If you can see it. She might be forced to actually confront some of the stuff.

If he were to say that,

[00:31:38] Jordan Harbinger: man, I don't see that happening unless our friend talks to her brother directly and tries to help him see all this more clearly, but then it gets messy. Is she overstepping? Is she stirring the pot? How is he gonna respond? Maybe he was like, if you're gonna be that way, fine, that's not a good sign.

Although if multiple sisters are like, your wife is nuts, at what point do you

[00:31:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: have to start listening?

[00:31:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. At what point does he listen? Exactly.

[00:32:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I.

[00:32:00] Jordan Harbinger: Whew. And so look, one option is when the time is right. Maybe after the baby shower you could sit down with Chelsea and say, look, I know you've had a very intense couple years, the miscarriage, the baby planning, all these events, super stressful.

We all go a little nuts around these events. I'm also seeing this and this behavior, and I see this narrative. I see a relationship with my sister falling apart, and I don't think I'd be a good friend or sister-in-law to you if I didn't just tell you that. I see you getting in your own way here and pushing away people who genuinely love you, including me.

And I know that's gonna be scary to say, but that's one way you could begin this conversation. Now, of course, how she'll respond to that, that's a totally different question. But like we always say how she responds to something like that, that's really gonna tell you a lot about whether there's a possibility for a healthy relationship here.

You might have to risk triggering Chelsea a little bit in order to find out if she's actually somebody that you can be close with. Gabriel, you know, this is weird, right? Because your choice is to either play their game forever where you're unhappy with it and they're seemingly unhappy with it, or you just push things to the next level and you find out is the inevitable conclusion that you're just gonna get pissed off at some point and cut me off because like, let's skip to that part,

[00:33:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Absolutely. It's like you're kicking up more data, even if you don't get the outcome that you want. But what you just said is so important for every kind of relationship. 'cause all relationships go through conflict and tension, and they could always be better. But what you just said is so true. You have to risk provoking somebody else and letting them deal with the feelings that you stir up.

And then you also have to risk provoking yourself and be willing to bear the feelings that you kick up inside of you and the ones you have to bear on their behalf. In order to find out if the relationship has the potential to improve, I think that's just one of the hardest things to do in life. It's kind of a key skill.

[00:33:46] Jordan Harbinger: You're ripping off this emotional bandaid. You can either sit there and be delicate around it for years where everybody's annoyed by it, or you can just go for it and see what shakes out. And this does not get easier the longer you play along. Right? 'cause you know when you get like an injury, like a shoulder injury.

And then it's like, oh, your lower back kind of hurts and your bicep hurts, and your other arm has this weird thing because there's an imbalance going on. Your whole family is rearranging themselves slowly over time with different people breaking at different points.

[00:34:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Man, that is a gray metaphor.

[00:34:17] Jordan Harbinger: So the sister was already like, I'm out.

She's already like the tendon in your elbow that's sore every day. You can't use it because you gotta wear a sling 'cause something's going on. You have to eventually heal the injury with surgery, with rehab, whatever it is. 'cause eventually all of the other joints are gonna have a problem with this and that's no way to live.

Alright? We went through the one option where you just be a little more direct with it. The other option is to pull away like your sister has and just have less contact with her. No contact. Perfectly legitimate option. I'm sure she'll notice that you might have to talk about it at some point, or you could find some middle ground where you're friendly but not super close, and that allows you to stay connected to your brother, protect yourself from Chelsea.

At the same time, it's also a fair option. I, as you might guess, think option one is the most authentic and productive approach. It'll get you closer to a more honest relationship with Chelsea and with yourself, even if that means you guys aren't as close, which I will argue, you're not really close with somebody if they're pulling this crap and you're tolerating it.

It's an illusion. It's a mirage.

[00:35:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also an excellent point,

[00:35:20] Jordan Harbinger: right? Maybe it's slightly more awkward in the short term, and then you just never deal with her again. Cool.

[00:35:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which version of Distant do you want?

[00:35:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ooh, I like that. But I also know that look. Any of these options is gonna require a lot of courage and strengthen your part.

Really.

[00:35:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, the more we talk about this, Jordan, I am thinking that maybe it would be wise of her to stick with the baby shower planning and just knock the baby shower out of the park so she can give Chelsea one big gift and show her that she was really there for her in exactly the way that Chelsea said she wanted, which would not just buy her goodwill for when she decides to have this difficult conversation, but which potentially could rewrite this narrative that everybody abandons her.

That's just gonna remove one huge objection from Chelsea so that when they do sit down, Chelsea can't turn around and say, I was right. You did exactly what I said you would, you know, this party could be a very useful thing. It might also be the right thing to do. And then after that's done, then they can sit down and talk.

[00:36:11] Jordan Harbinger: That's good. I, wow. I really like that. Also, it's gonna be really hard for her brother to be like, you never do anything for her when you just threw the world's greatest baby shower and everyone saw it 'cause they were there. Uh, I got worked up on this one. I don't know if it's just Friday or if this particular thing.

Everybody's family has a Chelsea somewhere, so maybe this is plucking little chords that I have, uh, calloused over or thought I calloused over. It's a great instrument though. I like the sound coming out of it, the screaming into the microphone. I'm really sorry you have to deal with all this. It sucks, man, but it shouldn't be your responsibility.

But I also think Chelsea desperately needs to hear some things, and I would imagine a few other people would have your back. You're not the only one who's headed up to here. I hope you find the solution that feels right for you and good luck and enjoy that baby shower. You could reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com.

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It's a great companion to the show. I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Alright, what's next?

[00:37:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a Polish immigrant who has lived in the United States for many years. I served over a decade in the US Marine Corps during which time I obtained both US citizenship and a secret level security clearance.

Given recent developments and policy shifts within the government, my German wife and I have made the difficult decision to relocate back to Europe this year. Here's my dilemma. I have friends who are deeply involved in the MAGA movement and are members of the LDS Church. They're very vocal about their disdain for immigrants, often making disparaging remarks and attacking them as lazy and freeloaders, but their lifestyle tells a very different story.

They live in subsidized housing paying less than $700 a month for a three bedroom condo. Their children attend a private Catholic school, which is paid for by the wife's parents, which costs approximately 7,000 to $10,000 per child annually. Extracurricular activities like horseback riding lessons are funded by extended family.

They benefit from numerous government assistant programs including food assistance. The wife refuses to work fully aware that earning income would jeopardize their eligibility for these benefits. Sadly, I know several other families who operate similarly. Some of these individuals repeatedly claim that immigrants are a quote unquote peasant class living off the system while portraying themselves as quote, true hardworking Americans.

[00:39:06] Jordan Harbinger: Okay? I feel compelled to say that not all Mormons in the LDS Church are xenophobic pieces of shit, but I just, I can't with people like this, if you're gonna be anti-immigrant, at least have some integrity about it. Be a xenophobe and be self-sufficient, or take government benefits and let everyone else do it too.

But if you're disparaging people for freeloading while you're blatantly freeloading yourself, come on man. People in glass houses, man, my theory about people like this is that they rely, and I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious. But they rely on xenophobia to place themselves above the people that they label as parasites, because then they feel less like the parasites.

They're talking about, oh, it's these foreigners. They're the problem. We couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong.

[00:39:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: But meanwhile, they're doing the same thing that they complain other people do. Yeah. I'm just struggling to wrap my head around how somebody could be this blind to the hypocrisy.

[00:40:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I just, again, I'm not sure that they are blind to it.

They certainly try to reinforce the narrative, but at some level they must know how could you be blind to this? You're sending your kid to private school in horseback riding lessons while you're on food stamps. You refuse to get a job because it would compromise your welfare. They gotta be doing some crazy mental gymnastics to not know that they're fully taking advantage of the system.

[00:40:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Part of me says to let it go, since I'm moving outta the country soon and these people have been part of my life for years. Even though our values are drastically different. But another part of me that has always stood for integrity struggles with letting it slide. In the past, I've taken action in far more challenging situations, including exposing unethical executives and preventing multimillion dollar fraud against my IT department.

What is the right thing to do in this situation, given that I already have detailed documentation and evidence? Should I proceed with reporting this to the appropriate agencies, or would it be better to step away quietly and let it be signed prejudicial in blowing the whistle or write to send a missile at these people who make me bristle?

[00:41:09] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. As you can probably tell, I share your frustration. Totally. It's actually, it's wild to hear a story like this because you usually think about welfare fraud or food stamp fraud as something that quote unquote poor people do. And I'm sure it happens in that population as well at some level, but you don't really think of it as something that a family sending their kids to private school in horseback riding lessons would do, but it happens.

Everybody I knew who was on food stamps really needed food stamps back in the night. I mean, these are people. They desperately needed the food. I'm with you, man. This is not okay. But what makes this story especially maddening, is that these people then hold these beliefs that are completely at odds with how they conduct themselves.

If I heard people in my community talking like this at a dinner party or something, I would be throwing up in my mouth at least a little bit. Oh, are the Haitians really exploiting our system? We know you bought these crab cakes with your SNAP benefits. Linda, look, I have nothing against wanting your kids to go to a good school.

I completely understand that. Yes, you wanna live in a nice place and have fun hobbies. It's good for the kids. If their family wants to help, that's wonderful. But defrauding the government and getting assistance and then banging on about how immigrants are taking advantage of the system, can you just shut the actual fuck up?

Maybe commit your fraud and keep your damn mouth shut. It doesn't make it right, but at least it doesn't make you a raging hypocrite. All right. I'm done raging about this. It just grinds my gears. Really. It's not even about politics for me actually. It's not about politics for me at all. So I'm a little torn here.

Part of me, of course, really wants you to drop a dime on these people. For sure. They certainly deserve it. Anyone committing fraud, immigrant or otherwise should not be allowed to do stuff like this, but especially people who are just blatantly being dicks about it. On the other hand, well also, I can't help Gabe, but notice, and I don't have a real indication of this as per the letter, this is a Polish immigrant.

He's probably a white dude. His wife is German. These Mormon neighbors of his, they probably don't mean him, right? He's a hardworking immigrant, but like, okay, who are you talking about and how are you grouping these people together? I can't help, but there's just a subtle undertone of racism here. Not just xenophobia,

[00:43:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: but is what you're getting at that they consider him a different class of immigrants?

Yes. Or something Uhhuh. Yes. I think that's part of it, but also because he is an immigrant who has succeeded beautifully in this country, has contributed a lot. He's probably more sensitive to people who are anti-immigrant. So this hits him in a particularly tender spot.

[00:43:33] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah. And I get it, and I think that's probably why he's writing it.

On the other hand though, look, I imagine fraud is fairly widespread in these programs. Busting one family, it's not really gonna do much in the grand scheme of things. So from that perspective, maybe it's a little bit pointless. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. Police and prosecutors prosecute people all the time.

It doesn't mean that they're 99% done with stomping out crime in the country. Obviously this doesn't sit well with you. Not only is it ethically wrong, but you're a standup guy with a strong moral compass. You say you've exposed unethical executives, you've prevented massive fraud against your company. It sounds like you're kind of a boy scout.

And I mean that in the best way. I'm a fellow Eagle Scout here. If I were your boss, I'd be super grateful to have you on the team, saving tons of money, protecting the team, protecting the company. Unless of course I was the one doing the embezzling, then you're just a huge pain

[00:44:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: in my ass. Yeah. Then you need to go right now.

Go move to Germany. Let me embezzle in peace. So it raises another interesting question. If it's the right thing to do in a company, shouldn't it be the right thing to do when it comes to the government?

[00:44:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, really there's no difference. We all fund the government welfare fraud affects all of us even more so, I think he's on solid ground in reporting them.

And I would also understand if he decided not to, I don't think that would make him a bad person or complicit. Or would it? Right. Because now he knows. Yeah, you know, this really is a see something, say something kind of situation, isn't it? But look, if you do report these people. I would make sure you understand the implications, make sure you're comfortable with them.

My understanding is that there are a few possible penalties for entitlement fraud. They might just be disqualified from the program, so you know, no more food stamps or subsidized housing. Wifey has to get a job. Finally, they might have to repay the benefits they got illegally, in which case they're probably on a payment plan.

Fine. They might even face criminal charges and prosecution resulting in fines or prison time. Although the severity of the penalty depends on the nature of the fraud, like how intentional and egregious it is. Also, the amount of fraudulent benefits received. I really don't think mommy and daddy are going to prison and the kids are getting taken away though, just from a sort of legal perspective, I, this is gonna be a wrist slap in terms of the criminal part of this.

If you're okay with them facing those penalties, which you might be, then I say, go for it.

[00:45:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: What's hard about this for me is that their kids would pay a big price too, both by potentially losing certain things, like maybe their housing situation, and also by having their parents potentially be investigated, possibly indicted, although.

You seem to think that they wouldn't get in a ton of trouble. I don't know anything about that stuff, how that gets determined. I don't know. I'm not totally convinced that they won't get in serious trouble because they've been pretty blatant about it. But anyway, that is sad, right? Because this is not the kid's fault, as opposed to those fraudsters who targeted your IT department who are just out and out criminals.

You don't need to feel bad for those people whatsoever. I guess that's the only thing that makes this case different for me.

[00:46:15] Jordan Harbinger: No, that's a good point. It doesn't change the fact that what they're doing is wrong and the parents have to know that they're putting themselves at risk by doing this and apparently being very open about it, which is what's gonna bite them in the ass.

But you're right, the kids are innocent. This might affect them too, and so maybe that's one more thing our friend here needs to factor in. So what are these kids like? Are they a-holes too? No, I can't.

[00:46:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Are they cool? Are they funny? I don't know. Kind of a, a tough one.

[00:46:39] Jordan Harbinger: I can't tell how much def factor in the personalities of the people involved.

'cause even if these families were the nicest people in the world, even if they weren't going around talking about how Mexicans are leaching on the system or whatever, they'd still be committing a crime. So I guess that's where our friends' feelings about these people come into play. What their relationship is like, what his personal ethics are like.

I can't tell you exactly how to weigh those variables. That's up to you to decide. But if you listen to the show that blatant fraud and grift, they just don't sit well with me either. And moral hypocrisy and a total lack of integrity really don't sit well with me. So I kind of feel like these folks have it coming.

Let us know what you decide. I'm curious to hear which way you go. Thank you for your service and good luck with the move. It really does sound like America is losing good ones with you and your wife moving back to Europe. But hey, maybe the world burning will look better from across the pond. Or maybe you're gonna get a front row seat to another tariff.

We'll see. And now stop being such a freeload of yourself and take advantage of the criminally good deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We take EBT. We'll be right back.

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Now, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[00:50:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Doozy train. Conductors strap in 'cause this doozy train is coming in hot. Oh, do dude, I have a 33-year-old cousin. Let's call him Brad, who I grew up very close to. I'm three months older than him, but he's about three feet taller than me, and he's always been like a big brother.

Although we were close, we had very different childhoods. I grew up having to work for everything, whereas his parents handed him everything on a silver platter. He's never held down a real job outside of donating blood, which he and his wife do frequently to earn a quick buck, his parents pay his rent, his car, and his child's daycare, and have literally had to commandeer his bank account to ensure that his electric bill, among other things, gets paid on time.

Oh my God. He, how old is this guy again? 33. 33. Wow. He has a bad gambling addiction, a drug addiction he's been struggling with for 10 years and really low self-esteem. My aunt has a big heart and is a very kind person, but she's codependent with both of her children. Brad's brother also lives in a house that they own rent free, and my aunt takes care of his two children because he and his alcoholic ex-wife can't reach a custody agreement.

He also hasn't had a job in over eight years, and neither of the brothers has any incentive to change. The first time I ever met Brad's wife, I immediately got really bad vibes. He had just gone out of rehab for a heroin addiction and he was vulnerable. She's controlling and she sank her teeth into him.

Since then, it's been a downward spiral full of stressful situations that are taking a toll on everyone in my family. So of course, about two years into their marriage, their solution was to have a child. Fast forward to today, my aunt Brad's mom noticed that his paycheck had been deposited and his account was immediately overdrawn.

So she called him. His response was that their son was up sick all night and he had to go buy emergency cocaine so he could make it through the night to watch his 4-year-old.

[00:52:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Emergency cocaine. Wow. I've never heard that one before. What a ridiculous excuse for getting high. I can't be a good dad without the yay yo.

[00:52:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Oh, that's my emergency meth. I just, I didn't have a time to take a micro nap today.

[00:52:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Have you heard of Five Hour Energy Buddy? They're not even a sponsor, but you might want to try it. It'll also help you stay awake with a sick kid. God, this guy is just a full blown drug addict. Oh, so sad. Oh, this poor kid up all night with a coked up dad if the kid was even sick.

Yeah, good point. That could have been a lie. Duh. Okay, so ridiculous.

[00:52:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: On another occasion, my aunt went over to their house to do their laundry for them. Yes, she really does that. Oh my God. And asked where their son was. They said they had been up all night having a little fun and had to have someone pick him up to get him out of the house because they couldn't take care of him.

[00:53:02] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. So they're both addicts, great

[00:53:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: addicts who can't even do their own laundry. I know the gall can't separate the whites and the colors.

[00:53:10] Jordan Harbinger: I cannot believe Brad's mom goes over there to do their housekeeping for them, and they're acknowledging that they can't take care of their child. Hey, can you come over and do laundry?

We've been doing rails of blow all night and we wanna sleep till 5:00 PM.

[00:53:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: These fricking people, man, they also have one of their friends living with them, rent free of course, who recently got outta jail for God only knows what. This person is dirty, but I don't think is dangerous, uh, with the kids in the house.

Needless to say, this is not a great environment for my 4-year-old cousin. I truly feel that there need to be repercussions for their erratic behavior.

[00:53:43] Jordan Harbinger: Erratic is a very polite word for this behavior. This is neglectful at best, very reckless. Honestly.

[00:53:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know that if my cousin's wife finds out or even thinks that Brad's mom called TPS, she'll immediately pull her son away from her, which would break her heart.

I also worry because I don't know if a foster home is gonna be a better environment than where he is now. He's loved, he's fed, and my aunt does everything she can to get him out of the house as much as she can, but I know he is gonna have some core memories that are questionable at best, for

[00:54:15] Jordan Harbinger: sure. Yeah, but

[00:54:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: the math here is tricky, man.

I've tried to talk to my family about this, but our unspoken family motto is to just shove it down and never talk about the things that are uncomfortable.

[00:54:27] Jordan Harbinger: Why am I not surprised?

[00:54:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting theme on today's episode A, this kinda like, uh, how the family's dealing with Chelsea, right? Yes. I wanna do what's right by my little cousin, but don't know if it's even my place to step in.

My husband and I have been together for 12 years. We have super stable and successful jobs, and we have no children of our own. We've contemplated taking my cousin in to provide a more stable environment, but also don't feel that it's our responsibility. We also live three states away and wouldn't even know where to begin with that process.

What should we do signed? Listen to our chagrin as the next of kin, or take it on the chin that my little cousin is growing up in a denin.

[00:55:09] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. What a tragic story.

[00:55:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're referring to the fact that I tried to rhyme cousin with sin.

[00:55:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. That is

[00:55:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: tragic. Or you're talking about the letter,

[00:55:18] Jordan Harbinger: man, this kid's really stuck.

Obviously I share all of your concerns. This must be incredibly hard for you and your husband to watch. If this were happening in my family, I would be deeply disturbed. Very sad. It's even sadder, given how happy and successful you and your husband are as a couple.

[00:55:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That these two stories are playing out side by side in the same family as somehow it just heightens the tragedy, doesn't it?

[00:55:40] Jordan Harbinger: It really does. Your cousin and his wife, they sound very troubled. Brad's whole upbringing obviously did a number on him. His parents did not set him up to be a high functioning adult. They probably created and then enabled his dependence on them, on substances, on gambling, and these addictions, like all addictions, they're obviously masking some kind of pain.

God knows what that is. It's so strange to think that somebody who grew up this privileged who probably has very few major stresses in life, would have anything that they need to numb. But this happens all the time. Of course.

[00:56:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It is fascinating, right? She did say that he has really low self-esteem, which makes sense.

If you've never had to work very hard at anything, I think that's a common outcome.

[00:56:20] Jordan Harbinger: Everything was handed to him. He probably never had any big goals, and if you've never struggled to achieve things you want, if you don't even want things in the first place, you don't get to form a true personality and Gabriel.

No mention of his father. So was this like single mom doted on him? Probably never addressed the fact that dad wasn't around. There's so many other things going on here that make a person like this.

[00:56:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think not having that fully formed personality, not having any purpose or trajectory in your life, that can be its own kind of wound.

[00:56:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Some sort of existential trauma.

[00:56:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's gotta be one of the things he's numbing with his addiction.

[00:56:56] Jordan Harbinger: He's coping with the abyss in his heart or whatever it is. Sad. Okay. There's so much going on in this letter. Let me try and cut to the chase. Your little cousin is clearly vulnerable. He's growing up with parents who are drug addicts who can't care for him.

There's a strange formerly criminal stranger living with them. Cocaine at a minimum in the house to say nothing of. What I can only imagine is emotional neglect. I get why you wanna call CPS and it is definitely an option. It might be the right thing to do. I'm really worried about drugs around kids especially.

Look, that can kill a kid. It doesn't take much. There are some potentially painful consequences to calling CPS, of course, and it's hard to know if the fallout from an investigation is worse than what he has now. I honestly don't know. What I do know is this thing you said about how your family's way is just to shove things down and never talk about anything uncomfortable that is making the situation worse.

And I'm sure it's played a role in why Brad turned out the way he did. I'm guessing his parents have that avoidance. He inherited that avoidance. He chose a partner who doesn't wanna talk about the important things and the rest of your family doesn't wanna go anywhere near it, which by the way, the Brad dysfunction aside, that describes many slash most families.

It is incredibly awkward to confront difficult truths in a family. So I totally don't blame you guys for tiptoeing around this dumpster fire. But if there's a way forward here, someone's gonna have to say something. And given what you've shared, it sounds like that person is you and your husband because you guys are high functioning.

You see the situation clearly, you have a fairly close relationship with Brad, or you did at one time, you love your little cousin. And it doesn't sound like anybody else has the stones to do this. So my take is, I think there's an important conversation to be had with Brad, maybe his wife as well, about what's happening in their home, how it's affecting their son.

And as uncomfortable as that conversation is, I think it might be a necessary step before calling CPS. And I say that for two reasons. One, I think it's the right thing to do. Give Brad and his wife one real shot at waking up here, turning things around, taking better care of their son before you get the authorities involved.

And two, if you do end up calling CPS, which like I said, that might end up being the right move here. I think you'll sleep a lot better at night knowing you didn't jump straight to getting them into trouble. You didn't subject your little cousin to more instability. You actually tried, and they have full license to intervene here.

It's not like they're looking for drama or they're being petty about some family squabble. There's a four year old's life at stake. Brad and his wife are lucky that our friend here might talk to them directly and not just call the cops on their ass. So if they can't handle that conversation, that is on them.

Our friend here is on solid ground.

[00:59:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: The other option is you could talk to a few other people in your family and put together a little intervention of sorts. I mean, you could literally say, look, I know our family tends to sweep things under the rug. I get it. I don't want to deal with this either, but I am genuinely worried about my little cousin.

I'm sure you agree that he deserves much better than this. And I can't just stand by and watch his parents do cocaine all night and neglect him and put him in contact with shady ex-cons and pawn 'em off on Aunt Marley's all the time. I feel very strongly that we need to sit down with Brad and his wife and talk to them about all of this and encourage them to get clean, to make them understand that the whole family sees that they're in trouble, that they're hurting their son, and that if they don't change things, we might have to intervene more strongly.

And nobody wants that, and I would really love your help in doing that.

[01:00:21] Jordan Harbinger: I love that. If she can get her whole family involved here, that's gonna make a much bigger impact on Brad. It's easy to brush off one cousin who's three feet shorter than you. It's harder to look at 12 of your family members dead in the eye and deny that you're a hot mess when you're admitting that you were doing blow all night and need your mom to do your laundry at age 33.

I also think it'll make it way less scary and stressful for her.

[01:00:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And who knows, maybe their family will be very grateful for this. They just need a leader. It'll take some leadership on your part to get your family to help you, but they might also fall in line when they see somebody who has the courage to do it.

So I think it's worth it.

[01:00:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They might appreciate the leadership since they struggle to take this stuff on themselves.

[01:00:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's also possible though, that her family goes, yeah, no, we're not getting involved. Right. And then our friend here is on her own, which is really, that's a tough place to be, but I still think she can have the conversation with him.

[01:01:09] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. And look, if you do, obviously there's no guarantee that Brad and his wife will clean up their act, become better parents. I sincerely hope they take in what you say. I think you have a shot. But given everything you've told us, this whole upbringing and family ethos and these wounds, you're up against a lot.

There's a decent chance your intervention doesn't work. It's absolutely still worth trying though. But if this continues, I do think you need to at least consider calling CPS because your cousin is being parented by addicts. There are drugs in the house. That is a real issue. It's not like mom and dad go to Reno once a month.

They get blasted in a hotel room and come home and mostly parent the kid. Okay. That would be concerning, but at least they'd be keeping it away from him. Brad's using cocaine to be able to stay up with his son, which is almost certainly an excuse, by the way. But it does mean he's using drugs around his kid.

He's letting some deadbeat who just got outta jail sleep on the couch for little cousins locking eyes with this guy while he eats Cheerios in the morning. That is not a safe environment.

[01:02:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh God. What an image. Yeah. Wow. What do we, I didn't even think about that. They're like roommates and he has to hang out with this creep who's in their house.

Look, my understanding is that CPS tries to keep families together as much as possible, so calling them does not automatically mean that your cousin would end up in a foster home. If they decided that he couldn't live in the house anymore for a period of time, I think the more likely scenario is that they would place him with Brad's mom, which is probably the best place for him.

And if for some reason that's not an option, they would probably try to place him with you. I'm assuming someone in the family is gonna be able to take your little cousin and the system would try to reunite him with his parents as soon as possible. That might be conditional on regular drug tests or something like that.

So this doesn't necessarily mean that you would be destroying your cousin's life or anything if you called.

[01:02:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that's very good to remember. But it obviously doesn't mean that it'll be all smooth sailing, and Brad and his wife will have to deal with the tense conversation with CPS at a minimum. Also, you can make a report to CPS anonymously and they should protect your anonymity.

Now, Brad or his wife might assume that you or his mom called, but they won't be able to prove it. And if you don't tell Brad's mom you're gonna file a report, then she really will be clueless. And my hope is that they see that and don't keep her from seeing their son.

[01:03:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do think we need to talk about whether to take your little cousin in yourself.

Ugh. I don't know. I would hold off on pitching that. I think you are hesitating as well. I completely agree. Not your responsibility. Even if you do love him, and if you don't want to be his guardians, you shouldn't. He's not your child. It's he's their child and it's incredibly sad. But that is the reality of the situation.

It would also be a very long and complicated process. It would probably involve Brad and his wife's support. I mean, they're gonna have to agree to let you be guardians, I think, unless there's some criminal investigation or CPS intervenes or something like that. I. It doesn't sound like you're gonna get that.

So as we often do with stories like yours, we just have to acknowledge that there is a timeline where Brad and his wife continue to be far from perfect parents and their son grows up with some very real issues. And you guys have to watch that play out. And another fascinating theme of today's episode, you're gonna have to bear the sadness and the anger, the grief that come with that, and just be there for him however you can.

And stay close with him as he gets older. It is so tragic. It's almost hard for me to put words to, but it is not your tragedy. And there is a practical limit to what you can do here.

[01:04:29] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. And we're back to grief, our faithful friends. That's right. But that's another reason I feel this intervention is so crucial so that they know they did everything they could do.

Also, going back to that theme of integrity from the last letter I. Deciding not to look the other way. Leaning into this tough conversation, actually protecting the little cousin they say they love so much. That is a form of integrity too. What you're saying here is, I value doing the right thing here more than I value my own comfort, which I really admire.

I'm gonna say it anyway. I'm so sorry this is happening. Your little cousin is very lucky to have you looking out for him. My heart just breaks for this kid who was born into a very dysfunctional family, but who knows? He might turn out okay with the right interventions and support, which might begin with you.

Hope Brad can hear what you say. Sending you all a big hug and wishing you all the best. Alright, and now for the recommendation of the week,

[01:05:23] JHS Clip: I am addicted to.

[01:05:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is Bose noise canceling headphones.

[01:05:29] Jordan Harbinger: You bougie bitch.

[01:05:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, I've tried a few different headphone brands over the years.

There are a lot of good ones out there. The tech is insanely strong now, but I've never found ones quite as good as Bose at this price point. Anyway, they're not super, super cheap, but they're not obscene either and they have a ton of different models at different price points. This has been a game changer.

It's changed flights for me, just going on an airplane. You need noise canceling headphones. It's makes working in cafes possible. And as you know, a lot to filter out in cafes in Los Angeles. When the person next to you is taking a Zoom meeting and the people next to you are watching YouTube videos on speakerphone, I can only survive in the city with my bows.

They're great also for working out. I bring them to class before class begins. I'm working out with my bows. I kind of don't leave the house without them now. Just a great tool. So I wanted to recommend that for you guys. We're gonna link to them in the show notes.

[01:06:21] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. And I also have these, I lost, I left my other ones in an Uber, my old Sonys.

So I went to the airport and bought them before a trip and they actually are amazing and I used them all the way to Turkey and all the way back and the battery lasted the entire time without me having to charge it. It was only like 50% gone after 20 hours or something. Crazy. Battery life on these things is great.

It's bananas. What I love is when you take 'em off, they pause and if you put them back on, they play again.

[01:06:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you must have a more advanced model than I do. 'cause I don't think mine do that. That's cool.

[01:06:53] Jordan Harbinger: I got the newer ones 'cause they were on sale. They were actually cheaper than the older ones and I in the airport somehow got them for cheaper than you can get 'em at Best Buy.

It was just random. Yeah, so I highly recommend these as well. Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, something getting you worked up, come and shake it out over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. A lot of fun stuff going on there.

Meme thread, a lot of fun, casual conversation going about the show as well.

[01:07:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. So our last question today is actually an update on the rubber mallet story from episode 9 26. Yes. All right. Been waiting for this. So I assume everyone listening right now knows this story by now. 'cause we've talked about it so many times.

But in case you don't, long story short, a listener wrote in sometime back, because her ex-boyfriend who was a violent alcoholic, he was physically, emotionally, and sexually abusive. He cheated on her a bunch. When they were together, they broke up and sometime later he's out one night with his new girlfriend.

She finds out that he's cheating on her. They get into a fight in the car and then she goes into her trunk and famously grabs a rubber mallet and takes out his knees with it in the street

[01:08:02] Jordan Harbinger: and then

[01:08:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: runs him over with

[01:08:04] Jordan Harbinger: her

[01:08:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: car. Twice. Twice. Yeah. That's the part that destroyed us.

[01:08:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Prompted one of the weirdest moments we've ever had on this show of just uncontrollable semis, psychopathic laughter from me and Gabriel.

And so her question was, he's alone in the hospital. He might never walk again. I don't hate him. I feel bad for him. Do I reach out or do I stay away?

[01:08:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And our response was, stay away because this guy has gotta figure this out himself.

[01:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: And we were kind of hoping this would be a wake up call for him, right?

Like maybe sitting in the hospital going, how did I get here? Maybe I need to take a hard look at myself and make some changes.

[01:08:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm glad you said that because she wrote in Hi Jordan and Gabe when you started your top five countdown on your end of your episode back in December. I wondered if the now infamous rubber mallet story would be included.

I couldn't help but smile when I heard it made the list. I'm glad my story made such an impact on you and your listeners. Definitely a silver lining after such a wild experience to live through. And now the story is immortalized as lore on my favorite show. Truly the gift that keeps on giving. I still think about this maybe once a month, anytime I see a rubber mallet, certainly.

So I thought I'd give you guys a little update on my ex. Our mutual friend let me know that he did end up losing his foot and while his legs don't work well, he is able to walk. He often uses crutches to get around and still experiences chronic pain.

[01:09:25] Jordan Harbinger: Just gonna say he is lucky, but that's still pretty bad.

He lost a foot. Geez. How tall is he now? Anyway, he might be in pain for the rest of his life. I shouldn't laugh as I read that.

[01:09:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. Stop. This. Can't happen again. But yeah, this is what happens when your girlfriend treats you like a house for sale sign. Just bam, bam, bam into the floor. Dude

[01:09:42] Jordan Harbinger: just runs you over with a rev four, twice.

[01:09:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Despite all of this, he's still up to his old tricks. Old habits die hard, don't they? Womanizing and causing chaos wherever he goes. He's a charming guy, so I'm sure he has some cute quips about his legs to draw women in.

[01:10:00] Jordan Harbinger: That is wild. Imagine using your vehicular assault injuries to pick up chicks at a bar just flashing your prosthetic foot leg.

Look what this lady did to me. You wouldn't do that to me now, would you?

[01:10:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: I had hoped this experience would be his come to Jesus moment and he would turn his life around, but I guess that hasn't been the case. All the more reason to be grateful. I didn't reach out to him last year when all of this went down.

Some people just cannot break out of their toxic cycles, but that's his burden to bear.

[01:10:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's well said. And I cannot stop thinking about pickup lines that involve vehicular assault injury. Like, Hey girl, I got a foot for you. Just slams the prosthetic foot down on top of the bar. I got a whole foot for you.

[01:10:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Boom. Your dating coach background is coming out in the darkest way possible. As far as the girlfriend goes. She of the rubber maladin hit and run. I haven't heard or asked for any updates on where her case stands. I'm just trying to stay out of it now. It's not my business and I don't wanna invite any more chaos from these people into my life.

I have a crazy story to share and I've chosen to just leave it at that

[01:11:13] Jordan Harbinger: and that my friend is why you are a better person than me. This is exactly right. I commend you for being boundaried and responsible about all this. I'm just glad this all happened far away from you.

[01:11:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: And finally, a quick update on me.

This last year was a challenging but rewarding one with lots of ups and downs. I was not successful in shielding myself from another narcissistic partner, but I got out of it before it escalated. Ooh, interesting. Good

[01:11:38] Jordan Harbinger: job. It's all learning. That sounds like progress.

[01:11:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, well done there. I continued my healing journey through therapy and learned many more hard lessons.

I've gotten a lot better at setting boundaries, standing up for myself and not only recognizing red flags, but being proactive about responding to them. I got a great job managing a fine dining restaurant, which allows me to pursue side hustles of music and modeling.

[01:12:01] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, so you're hot and attracted to Toxic men.

Name a more iconic duo. Just kidding. Go on.

[01:12:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Way to cut her down to size. Dude. We're just like building her up and then I'm sure she's over there laughing right now. I hope so. And the best news is I just bought my first house. It's been very rewarding to see the fruits of my labor manifest this way, and I'm so excited to put my dream home together.

[01:12:25] Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Congratulations.

[01:12:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Huge accomplishments all around. I still continue to listen to y'all each week. As always, thanks for the thoughtful insights, the willingness to be vulnerable and the intermittent chuckles along the way. Keep up the incredible work and I can't wait to see what 2025 has in store for each of you signed.

Still staying away from the scene of the crime of my one-time guy who almost died and can confirm he's still total slime, but I continue to climb.

[01:12:52] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for that friend. Appreciate the update and the kind words, and I hope 2025 treats you well. Also, I am sitting here marveling at the fact that this guy almost lost his legs and he apparently has not changed at all.

At all. No, Gabe, it's actually kind of terrifying to think that somebody this troubled could just go through a crisis like this and not question any of their life choices. But I guess that speaks to how pathological people like this actually are. You could be almost paralyzed in a hospital room and alone and still think that you're entirely the victim.

It's scary.

[01:13:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, very. But if he were the kind of person who could do that, then he probably wouldn't also be all these other terrible things, abusive, cheating, addicted, and all this stuff.

[01:13:30] Jordan Harbinger: If you have that capacity, you probably don't get this bad in the first place. But then if you get this bad, what does it take to wake up?

If he ended up in a wheelchair, would that have done it if he almost died, or would nothing cut through those defenses?

[01:13:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: I wanna say that if you lose your foot and you're in constant pain and you're still not at least a little curious about how this happened to you, then probably nothing. We'll wake you up.

[01:13:52] Jordan Harbinger: It's just so hard to wrap my head around. But also to be fair, we don't know what this guy's thinking. She said he's up to his old tricks womanizing, causing chaos wherever he goes, but. Maybe on some level he knows something isn't quite right.

[01:14:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's true. It's an interesting question. If you're not consciously aware of something, but intuitively you know that there's something not quite right with your mental health or whatever, it might just be like a.

Constantly low grade feeling of distress or tension or something like that.

[01:14:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or like cousin Brad from the previous question, that low self-esteem, poor sense of self, it just manifests as a amorphous anxiety. Like a hollowness. Hollowness. Exactly. That's kind of a hallmark of narcissists, right. They just feel generally empty and inadequate and full of doubt, and that's why they need other people to admire them and prop them up to compensate for that emptiness.

But it's almost a lack of a feeling more than a feeling. So I am sorry to hear that you ended up dating another narcissistic partner, but I appreciate that you got out before it escalated. You're clearly learning and growing. You're still in therapy learning to rewrite these patterns. That is brilliant.

I know how hard it is to change these templates, but it's on us to learn to protect ourselves from people like this, especially because they're not gonna change. Ultimately they serve to show us where we need to grow, which is the weird upside to these awful situations. As long as you're taking good care of yourself, and congratulations on all of your growth, it's really wonderful to hear.

You're clearly thriving after this relationship. You're doing the work, you're working hard, you're leading a full and productive life. You should be very proud. I know I am. I am proud of you, but mostly I'm proud of you for feeding our narcissism by showering us with all of these compliments. Way to read the room.

We take all the supply where we can get it. Of course, again, I kid, keep up the great work, keep thriving, and keep a rubber mallet in your trunk. You never know when you're gonna need one. Go back and check out the Jay Dobbins episodes if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

The circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's a hundred percent free. It's not schmoozy, it's not gross. It's on the Thinkific platform for free@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills really just take a few minutes a day, dig the well before you get thirsty.

Folks, build relationships before you need them. All again@sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers deals, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show about the warning signs for Civil War.

[01:17:00] JHS Clip: There were times when I was writing that I myself started to get terrified. Is this right? Am I getting this right? Because what I'm saying is going to hit people hard? There have been hundreds of studies of civil wars.

The group that tends to start these wars are the ones dominant groups that are in decline. The group that has been politically, socially, economically dominant since the very beginning of this country. White Christian males, for the most part, America is going through this radical demographic transition from a white majority country to a white minority country.

White working class men have declined on most social and economic measures. That hasn't happened with any other demographic group. And there's a subset of this population that's deeply resentful of that, that's deeply threatened by that, and truly, truly believe that it's their patriotic duty to do something about this.

January 6th was so public, it was so obvious. This is part of a far right white supremacist, non-federal government movement here in the United States. We know that some of the far right militias, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys and the three percenters actively encouraged members to join the military to join law enforcement.

If you continuously portray this as these are just crazy individuals, then you remain blind to what's actually the cancer that's growing slowly from within

[01:18:37] Jordan Harbinger: to hear whether we are on the cusp of a civil war here in the United States, check out episode 718 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.