1144: Can Family Ties Overcome Son’s Deranged Lies? | Feedback Friday

1144: Can Family Ties Overcome Son's Deranged Lies? | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the moisture wicking headband keeping you dry on this marathon of sweaty life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, more correspondent and neuroscientists to Russian spies and cold case homicide investigators. This week we had Laila Mickelwait, author of the book Takedown.

Layla is fascinating. She went on a mission to hold the pornography website, PornHub accountable for sex trafficking. It's an absolutely wild story. She's super brave. I didn't realize how much sex trafficking and rapey stuff went on and that stuff you don't think about and it's really dark. What's on that website and how they got away with it for so long.

We also had a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on cannabis. Yes, we did one a long time ago. We decided to do it again. We had, uh, well, it's a complex topic. What can I say? On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare Gabe to various forms of functional athleisure.

[00:01:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but speaking of which, do you know who wasn't wearing functional athleisure the last two days? Me, because I was on jury duty this week and that's why we had to record later in the week.

[00:01:26] Jordan Harbinger: Man, jury duty sounds like it could be awesome or a giant drag, but you can't wear athleisure where you gotta dress.

Nice. I dressed

[00:01:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: up a little bit. Maybe I just wanted the opportunity to dress up. There were a lot of people wearing athleisure. Too much athleisure. Yeah, because for my taste,

[00:01:42] Jordan Harbinger: the trial's not happening. Now they're doing jury selection, right? They're not gonna be like, fair

[00:01:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: enough. Maybe dress code when it actually goes to trial.

Maybe

[00:01:49] Jordan Harbinger: jury of your peers. Your peers are just a gross mix of your neighbors, which are a gross mix of the people out in the world. So you might as well show up in your Lululemon

[00:01:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: here. That's right. Show up in your Lulus. A lot of people hate jury duty. I actually don't hate jury duty. I kind of like it. I know I sound like a boy scout right now, but I do consider it an important duty and I feel lucky to live in a country with a somewhat functioning judiciary.

Can I really complain that I have to do this for a few days? Not really.

[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: To be honest, I've never actually been on a jury. I've been a witness and stuff, which is fun too, but I've never been on a jury. If I got selected, I would feel, yeah, it's your duty. Because if you don't do it, you're like a thoughtful person who's gonna examine the evidence and like knows things.

The person they might select might just be like, screw this, I can't pay attention. I gotta go home. Sure. He looks guilty because I don't know, he is brown or something. I'm hungry. You are like, you don't know

[00:02:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: quite. I agree. Yeah. I've actually served on two juries before. One was civil, one was criminal, and then they called me up after years.

Anyway, it ended up being pretty funny. I feel like jury duty is always kind of funny. It's just being around that many people from all walks of life. I find the people watching aspect so entertaining. It's like, I don't know. I could do that all day, but I have to tell you some funny stuff that happens. So I get to the courthouse a little early and I go to the Starbucks across the street to get a cup of tea and at a table by the counter where you order, there's a woman doing some work and she has her papers spread out.

She's pretty cute and seems interesting, and I almost went up to her and started talking to her. But then she got a phone call right before I was about to cross the room and I had to be at jury duty across the street. So I just grabbed my green tea and I left. So I get to the jury pool room and I was actually prepping the show for this week.

While we wait and I'm looking at my laptop, I'm looking up and I'm studying all the people who are slowly filing in just like a really interesting group of people. I don't know if anyone cares who doesn't live in Los Angeles, but when you get called to jury duty in LA it is so annoying because you have to drive, well, I have to drive all the way across downtown.

It's like an hour commute each way. Or it can be, I got called to the Santa Monica courthouse, so I only had to go like 15 minutes, which was amazing. That was another reason I wasn't that upset about it. Also, because I have a job that I can do from anywhere. I don't have children. Mm-hmm. I know it's annoying.

More annoying for other people. Anyway, I'm just enjoying looking around at all these people. There's this funny moment where one woman who was called got mad that there were no stairs, that we had to take the elevators up and down and she was like complaining to the guy. He's like, dude, I didn't design the building.

She said, no, I was just asking. I was just wondering. It was just stuff like that. Just like little moments. So I go to the jury pool room, you know you have to hang out for a bit before they call you. I'm prepping the show a little bit while we wait. I am already loving the people watching 10 outta 10 on the people watching.

Just a really great cross section of humanity. They send us to a courtroom, we settle into our seats. The judge explains the case at a very high level, and it's basically an unlawful detainer case between a landlord and a tenant. So an eviction. Basically, they brought in, I want to say 50 jurors knowing I think that a bunch would be dismissed because people have strong opinions about this stuff, and the defendant, the tenant is representing himself, just looks like very average white guy slicked back hair, thick rim glasses.

He's wearing the worst tie I've ever seen in my life, so he's colorblind or something. He just kinda looks vaguely confused and you could already feel the juror's wheels turning. What does this mean? What does that say about him? Do we feel bad for this guy? Or should we be kind of impressed that he's representing himself?

Is this gonna be a total shit show? Unclear. The plaintiff and the landlord, I believe a Latina woman who owns the building where this guy is living. She has an attorney and their backs are facing the jury pool, so we can't see them, but the attorney turns around and it's the woman I almost hit on at Starbucks.

Oh man.

[00:05:36] Jordan Harbinger: You would've gotten dismissed for sure. Like do you have any previous experience? Actually, I just tried to pick up the plaintiff while I got my $7 cup of tea at Starbucks.

[00:05:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: That would, it was like 3 75, but that would've been awkward. And also, yeah. What would've happened? Would they have to automatically dismiss you because you have a previous relationship?

[00:05:53] Jordan Harbinger: It's the other side might be like, what's your relationship? Oh, I just thought she was cute. So I went to talk to her at Starbucks. They'd be like, you're outta here because what? You think the plaintiff is hot? No thanks. That's not gonna work out in my favor. You're outta here, pal.

[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: But you know what's funny?

Everyone wants to get out of jury duty, and so people are always like, do I do the Larry David thing and just say, I'm a flagrant racist, your Honor, and then get dismissed or. Do I tell them that I have previous experience with this? No, the answer is just hit on counsel on both sides and then you're eliminated that.

That's right. It was so funny. It felt like an episode of Grey's Anatomy or something. I'm like, what is this twist? Anyway, the judge gives us the instructions and one of them is if you run into the defendant or the plaintiff or a counselor, please do not talk to them. Oh, geez. And if you do talk to them, they're not going to respond.

And he goes way out of his way. He was so nice. He was like, it's not because they don't wanna talk to you. I'm sure they would love to talk to you. It's because they're not allowed to talk to you. And in my head I'm like. You think, your Honor, you want to talk me if you were allowed to? I'm just hypothetically think I could get a date with the plaintiff and then of course I'm sitting there.

'cause like I'm always working on stories. I'm imagining what's gonna happen if we get in the elevator together later and I'm like, this would be a great opening to a movie or a show. Like two people hit it off and then they end up in a trial together and neither of them says anything or it's just funny.

So they begin voir dire jury selection. And this woman, the lawyer, is one of the best lawyers I've ever seen in action. She's super confident but also friendly and very dynamic. She's really good with the jury. They haven't even started trying the case yet and she is already winning. Everyone over. It was actually inspiring to watch and basically I am trying not to stare at this woman for the rest of voir dire 'cause I don't wanna be inappropriate or like throw her off her game.

But we do lock eyes a couple of times and I'm like, bru, if I get dismissed, can I talk to you by the vending machine or something Like what are the rules? Or do I need to go on hinge and set my radius to one mile from the address of the house? Your client is evicting this guy from, what's the move here?

You know?

[00:07:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, this is public record. This is a lawsuit. You can find out who plaintiff's counsel was on the lawsuit. You can have Corbin Payne Legal, legal in front of the show and you can be like, Hey, how would I find this person's name? And then he'll grab it for you of Lexus

[00:08:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nexus or something like that.

That is hilarious. I did not think you were gonna dark Jordan Match. Make

[00:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: me. Yes. And then you can just call and be like, hi. Yes, I was a juror. I got dismissed. I just wanted to know if you go to that Starbucks all the time because I plan on trying to run into you there again. How much business do you have at the court?

The answer was tons. And if you had it in you to commute to that courthouse, Starbucks. A few more times. I almost guarantee you'd see her. That's probably her thing. She probably goes at Starbucks so she's not late. And then she sits there and gets her coffee and does a couple emails and you could be like just working on my screenplay, just doing some feedback Friday emails over at the totally inconvenient Starbucks with $7 parking.

[00:08:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. I guess I'm getting my Emperors Cloud mist at the Starbucks on Civic Center Drive from now on. Anyway, so I have to tell you though, there were some funny moments during Voer. So first of all, endless questioning of the jurors. It took all afternoon and half of the second day to select a jury for this case that they said would definitely wrap up by Friday.

People on this jury went on about their lives and their stories. They wanna know what's your name, what's your occupation? What part of town do you live in? Do you live with any adults? Are those people. Landlords or lawyers, or do they work in the legal profession? Stuff that might bias you in some way, but these people are like, 20 years ago, my mother owned a rental property and there was a kerfuffle about.

Mm-hmm. Everyone is like collectively rolling their eyes while these people just go on about the most inane details. And then every like fifth or sixth person, somebody was like, I live here. This is what I do. Yep. No. Yes. I can be impartial. Thank you. Goodbye. And we were all just, thank you. Can we just move this along?

It was so funny.

[00:09:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no. Meanwhile, Dolores is like, what's funny, you should ask because 35 years ago, my husband, like RIP, was a landscaper, and then 15 minutes later it's literally what? What was I talking about again? Literally,

[00:10:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: dude, what was the question? What you just did was literally, one of the women on this panel was this older lady who was like, they were like, what's your occupation, ma'am?

She's like, well, for many years I was an admissions officer at such and such university, but there was a change in leadership and I was sadly laid off. It was a difficult time. I decided to pivot into this other thing and I. Worked as a executive assistant at a, like we're all just like, lady, this is not your LinkedIn bio.

You're retired now, is what you're saying. You're retired. Just, yeah. The punchline to her story was, I haven't worked for the last few years. I'm retired now. We're like, oh my God. Could have been a one word answer. Could have been a one word answer. Unreal, dude. People storytelling, not a universal skill. I

[00:10:55] Jordan Harbinger: think storytelling and social emotional intelligence are obviously linked, right?

They have to be. The people I know at the lowest amount of social intelligence, they'll just tell a random story that they want to tell at the time because they don't know what to do. They don't know what is even appropriate. The smartest people will decide when it's even appropriate to tell a story and what that story should be.

And what the goal is. And does it serve everyone there or only you at the moment? There's so much in there.

[00:11:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. 'cause a couple moments. It was like you understand that this voir dire process is not your own personal podcast. Nobody's here to hear your life story, which was not that interesting anyway.

Yeah, it was hilarious. It was such a diverse panel. Some people were landlords, a lot of people were tenants, so they all got dismissed, I assume. Actually not all of them. Okay. But I think there were two people who were explicitly anti landlord. There was a guy whose whole job was to help people get into housing and to like advocate for rules that would allow them to stay longer and they can't be evicted if they don't pay rent, et cetera, et cetera.

And a couple people were very pro landlord. A couple people were like, yeah, I own 15 rental properties.

[00:12:03] Jordan Harbinger: I've evicted ship eggs. Like this guy totally representing himself over and over again and they're always a waste of time, money, space and oxygen. Yeah.

[00:12:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: One woman was eight and a half months pregnant and she was like, look, I can serve but I constantly have to pee so it might be a real inconvenience and hold everyone up.

And the judge was like, it's no problem at all. We have a bathroom just through there, but if you go, we have to pause and everybody has to go. Anyway, she was dismissed. There was a Ukrainian woman who was like, I think it's ridiculous that landlord tenant issues require jury trial in the first place. Like she was so angry about it, she got dismissed.

A couple people in the jury pool were lawyers, real estate investors. Several of them straight up said it would be next to impossible for them to set aside their pro landlord bias, with the exception of those two people I just mentioned who were pro-tenant. It was really fascinating. Almost every single person, even the people who do not own property, were like the long California is way too skewed toward the tenants.

The tenant's rights are out of control. I thought that was interesting. Just clearly a post covid thing. There was one great moment though, the lawyer, you know my future wife? Yes. She is interviewing this young woman in the jury pool. I think she was a tech executive or something, and this young woman was constantly laughing throughout the whole process and she asks her what she asks every single person on the jury, which is.

Do you think you could set aside any preconceptions you have and give both sides a fair shake? And without missing a beat, this woman goes, oh yeah, totally. I love to make judgements.

[00:13:30] Jordan Harbinger: It's the opposite. Do you think you could give somebody a fair shake? Yeah. I love just looking at somebody and deciding immediately whether or not they've done the thing or not,

[00:13:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: or it was one of those that's definitely ending up on overheard la moments.

Ugh. And they approved her. And nobody dismissed her. That's really funny. And she ended up in the jury, she just walked across the room and she was actually kind of excited. Oh man. They ended up picking a jury. I was in the extras pool or whatever, so I went home. So I just sat there for two days listening to everybody's life story and opinions on landlords and tenants for nothing.

But I actually enjoyed it. It felt good to do my duty and also. Yeah, just great research on people. So

[00:14:05] Jordan Harbinger: you're still in the extras pool

[00:14:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: at that point? Yeah. I, they never even put me on the inside of the box. Oh, I see. Or even on the outside of the box.

[00:14:11] Jordan Harbinger: I thought you meant, you got selected as like an alternate juror.

[00:14:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I was even outside of that. Oh,

[00:14:17] Jordan Harbinger: you're lucky. Okay.

[00:14:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: But for a second I was like, there's so many people here, I'm definitely not getting chosen. And then they dismissed so many people. It was like if they had dismissed two or three more people, I might have ended up on the jury.

[00:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose they still could little miss.

I can put aside my judgements except for I love to be judge. Yeah, I know what she meant. But it's, it's kind of a funny way to put it. I think you should definitely try to date this lawyer. Look, being a lawyer is a tough job. It often precludes having a relationship. There's a very good chance that this beautiful, young, educated woman is still single.

[00:14:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, it would be an amazing story, but I, I. Don't think that I have embraced that level of creepiness yet personally in my life. Perhaps I should. Sure.

[00:15:01] Jordan Harbinger: What about me creeping? And then she's like, how did you even find out about me? And I'm like, so here's the thing. I got this podcast and my co-host this and I looked up, link up Alexis Nexus and then just click the

[00:15:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Spotify link.

You'll understand everything. Yeah,

[00:15:12] Jordan Harbinger: exactly. And then we just did this whole ridiculous thing and now you accidentally met at Starbucks. Totally random. It's not the worst idea in the world. And then she'd be like, oh good. I'm so glad I have a law degree. 'cause you're both getting restraining orders immediately.

Cease and desist PTO. Yeah. Fortunately I think that's probably more likely. Yeah. Great. Jordan, what's your address? 'cause I need to serve you with a lawsuit for invasion of privacy. Alright. What's the first thing outta the mailbag?

[00:15:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, when I was 20 years old, I dated and got pregnant by a selfish, irresponsible 27-year-old man.

He wanted me to get an abortion, but I couldn't do it. He ended up breaking up with me when I was six months pregnant saying I'm not ready to be a father. After my son was born, I needed money, so I went to the DA and tried to get child support. My ex was personally served, but he never showed up for the hearing because he was an immigrant, possibly illegal, and didn't have a social security number.

The DA told me that there was nothing they could do. I got no help from him and never saw him again. A few years later, I met another much better man. He proposed after telling me he wanted to adopt my son, which he did. We married and I thought everything would be okay with my son. Several years later, I had a daughter with my husband.

By three years old, my son was displaying behavior problems Many times. I was called into the office at his preschool for some infraction from. Throwing stuff on the roof to peeing on the wall to flushing, sticks down the toilet. He bit and hit other kids regularly by grade school. I was getting calls from the school every week.

Behavior problems at home and school continued throughout his childhood.

[00:16:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, that's gotta be tough. I know what it's like to get a call from school happens occasionally. Jayden used to have his like bity phase or his, I'm gonna hit people that I don't like phase, which only lasted a couple weeks for this to continually happen all through preschool, all through grades.

So it's just that feeling would get worse and worse. And then of course you feel like they blame you. And of course most people do. Oh, you must be a terrible parent, et cetera. It's just, ugh, the stress is, I'm getting secondhand stress just hearing about this by

[00:17:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: kindergarten. We had him in therapy. We also went to therapy separately to learn how to deal with him.

He was diagnosed with a DHD and ODD, oppositional defiant disorder. They tried every type of medication available. Nothing helped. We sent him to different psychologists and psychiatrists. We tried individual family and group therapy. We also paid for private tutors and educational therapists. My son failed every school year because he would not do the work despite having a very high iq.

They kept passing him on. Anyway, I think they didn't want to deal with him for another year. By 10th grade, I finally gave up on therapy and medications. We had been spending $10,000 or more yearly, which seemed to make no difference.

[00:18:04] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I'm just wrapping my head around what you've been through. So you did all the things we'd recommend here on the show.

I'm so sorry. Those resources didn't help that his teachers couldn't or wouldn't help on. It's just beyond challenging and super sad.

[00:18:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: The biggest problem was the constant lying. He lied about everything. He lied to cover up misdeeds, but he also lied for no apparent reason. Those were the lies that baffled me the most.

The therapist said that lying for no reason was the biggest problem, and I understood why later.

[00:18:34] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that is such an ominous sentence, and I'm dreading what's coming.

[00:18:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: My son barely graduated high school, but we were thrilled. He joined the military and we breathed a sigh of relief. He had a job supported himself and appeared to be doing well.

He met a woman in the military and she got pregnant. I was worried, but I just tried to be supportive. They got married after my grandson was born. My son eventually went AWOL from the military and was kicked out after that. He was often unemployed, spending many months at home playing video games all day in his boxers while his wife worked.

But my grandson was the most wonderful little boy, and I adored him. He was the light of my life. I couldn't get enough of him. It was so fun being a grandma. I didn't have to be serious. I could play with him and have a fun time. He was so sweet. I can still picture his laughing face so adorable. Meanwhile, my husband was slowly spiraling into mental illness.

He refused to get help. After years of suffering, he took his own life. God,

[00:19:36] Jordan Harbinger: I'm stunned, and I'm so sorry.

[00:19:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is awful, man. The things you've been through too much for one person, man, this is insane. So she goes on. My daughter was a teen and my grandson was two when he died. There is no way to overstate how traumatic and terrible my husband's death was.

Everyone in his life was devastated. Everyone felt guilty and responsible. It's still hard for me to understand how someone who loved his family so much could do something that hurt them all so profoundly. My daughter and I took the brunt of his illness and death. We were both devastated, grieving, and in therapy for years afterward.

Almost a year after my husband's death, my teenage daughter started getting weird texts from my son's wife offering to have my daughter move in with them. My daughter never liked her and didn't trust her brother, so she ignored the texts. A week after that, I got a call from my son. First, he accused me of dragging him outta bed in the middle of the night to punish him.

I was baffled having no idea what he was talking about. Before I could respond, he quickly escalated yelling that I had raped him. I got angry yelling That never happened. He then hung up on me. It turned out that the call was recorded and the police were listening in. My son had filed a police report accusing me of various crimes, including physically abusing him as a child, molesting him as a child, and raping him as an adult.

He further accused me of killing my husband, molesting my daughter, and kidnapping him as a baby from his deadbeat bio dad. All told he falsely accused me of at least five violent felonies. He also included a lot of other people in his assortment of lies, claiming several neighbors, and his grade school principal molested him as a child.

But I was his primary target.

[00:21:19] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, this is a horrible guy, horrible person.

[00:21:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was under investigation for seven excruciating months. I had to hire criminal defense lawyers for my daughter and myself since my son implicated her in his stories, claiming she was both a victim and a witness. She was interrogated for three hours by the police.

I paid for the lawyer to be there with her, but it was still traumatic. Not to mention the fact that she would be stuck living with her brother if I were sent to jail. The person who put both of us through this, hell, oh my gosh. My lawyer told me not to talk to the police, but I did anyway. No, it wasn't a smart move, but not knowing what was happening was killing me.

The police don't tell you what they're investigating you for.

[00:22:00] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Wow. This is so intense. Okay. A good reminder to never speak to the police without an attorney, and I know there's a lot of cops listening. This is not a personal attack on the police. This is just good legal hygiene. It is so hard to do this when you're innocent.

You've done nothing wrong. You literally don't have anything to hide. The cops hold all the cards, but every lawyer will tell you the same thing. Do not ever talk to the police without a lawyer present. It takes a lot of strength to say, Hey, I have nothing to hide, but I'd like to have my lawyer here, but you have to do it.

This is a little PSA from Uncle Jordan. There's a lot of reasons for this. There's a video called Don't Talk to the Police. We'll link to it in the show notes. It's a law professor. This is a classic. It's got millions of views and he explains why you should never talk to the police without a lawyer present.

It is not because the police are all bad guys that wanna put innocent people in jail. A spoiler. There's good reasons for this and you should always follow this advice. Anyway, go ahead.

[00:23:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: My family and friends were all interviewed. It was to put it mildly, a shit show. Eventually I figured out most of the accusations and pieced everything together.

I learned that my son found his bio dad and that guy told him that I had kidnapped my son as a baby and that he had been searching for my son all these years. It was the one lie I could definitively disprove. Since the public records show he was served for child support, if he wanted to see a son, he had to show up in court and pay child support.

He did neither. After seven months, I finally got a letter from the DA saying he would not file charges against me and. The whole thing was dropped. It was a huge relief. This was the absolute worst period of my life, and I was in a state of constant extreme anxiety.

[00:23:44] Jordan Harbinger: No kidding. I can only imagine this is a literal nightmare.

I am so relieved for you, or am I too early? Let's see.

[00:23:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Immediately after I went into a state of deep rage, I seriously considered suing my son, his wife, and my ex for slander. In the end, I decided not to do it because I knew they didn't have enough assets to make it worthwhile. I would only get some empty satisfaction after spending years fighting in court.

[00:24:06] Jordan Harbinger: A good call deadbeats, losers. These kinds of people are always judgment proof. That's the sad reality. You can't get blood from a stone.

[00:24:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I knew my son would love it if I sued him. He's the type that thrives on chaos. He would love the distraction, and it would give him the double enjoyment of playing the victim and making my life all about him for years longer.

But I wanted to hurt them like they hurt me. Most of my other ideas involve things that would make me a criminal, so I reluctantly let it go. Going to jail wasn't an option, so they got away with everything.

[00:24:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so infuriating, but that's the difference between you and your, pardon me. Peace of crap, son.

[00:24:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes,

[00:24:46] Jordan Harbinger: you're sane and you're regulated enough to break the cycle, but boy, do I understand your rage. I bet you were wishing you had had that abortion. I know that's dark, but I bet you wish you'd never had him. And I don't blame you.

[00:24:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. These are some tough thoughts and feelings to live with. So she goes on.

Once I worked through the anger, I spent a lot of time dealing with feelings of betrayal and devastation. I honestly never saw any of this coming, my husband's suicide or my son trying to ruin my life. My biggest question was why? Why did he make up all the lies about me? In time, I realized the answer was simple greed.

When my husband died, I inherited most of the estate. The kids got a small inheritance, but I got most of it, which was fair since I paid for half of everything we owned. But if I went to jail, my daughter would need a guardian. That guardian would be my son. Oh my God. Which meant he could access all my money for my daughter's care, and I'm pretty sure his wife helped him cook up the whole scheme.

[00:25:44] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, these people deserve each other. I mean, that does sound like a plausible theory. I can't believe someone would go to great lengths for money, but people have obviously done a lot worse for less. And honestly, this is a psychopath move. I'm gonna screw over my mom and ruin her whole life and my sister because I want some money,

[00:26:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: or at least something sociopathic about it.

Yes, she did. I thought it was interesting when she said that he had a high iq, but he couldn't get through school. So he's deploying his intelligence in all kinds of strange ways. After the whole mess, I heard my son had changed his name to his deadbeat dad's last name. The final insult to the memory of the father who cared for him all his childhood.

Who adopted him, loved him, and helped him pay for his endless therapy bills. My son was a tough kid to deal with, and his dad never once voiced any regret for his decision to adopt him. That part still makes me angry. My husband made many mistakes, but he was there day in and day out, loving and caring for a kid who loved no one in return.

But the worst part is that I never saw my grandson again. Oh no. It tore my heart up. I still miss him every day. I think about the fact that he's grown over the years, and I wouldn't even recognize him today that he doesn't remember anything about me. My grandson is now nearing adulthood. We no longer share a last name, so he can't find me if he's even thought about it.

I'm positive. My son and his wife have concocted some bizarre story about me. I've thought about reaching out to him or even registering with one of the DNA services once. He's an adult, so he might find me, but I'm worried about what he might be like after being raised by my son and daughter-in-law.

Also severe mental illness runs through my daughter-in-law's family with some of them being institutionalized, all of them male.

[00:27:29] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a nature nurture cluster this is. This is so sad. Oh

[00:27:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: my gosh. It sounds unfair to assume that my grandson might be as sick as his parents, but I worry. Oh, it's not unfair.

I get it. I would worry too. I would love to see my grandson and learn about his life, but I'm afraid that he had a traumatic childhood that will only devastate me since I couldn't help him. I'm also worried that he'll end up like his parents or worse, and he'll target me in some way. Frankly, I'm at peace with the situation as it is after years of therapy.

But healing from something like this doesn't mean I could survive it a second time. Should I take steps to make myself available to my grandson and try to find him once he's an adult, or should I leave him in the past and hope and pray for him from afar signed, keep my distance after this dreadful business.

Or be persistent in asserting my existence.

[00:28:22] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, what a story. What a nightmare you've been through. I am gobsmacked over here, as you might expect to struggle in this way with a child's mental illness, to lose your husband to suicide, to deal with the nonsense criminal investigation for months for awful things you did not do.

Just the sheer brazenness and mendacity of what your son did, how ruthless this all is, how cruel it is, and then to lose your grandson on top of it all. I am just so sorry my friend. You've. Really been through the ringer here. This is a lot. It's just insane, and the fact that you're even functioning as well as you are right now is a miracle.

First of all, I have to say, I am in awe of you and what you've gone through, that you and your husband went to such lengths to try and help your son from a young age. The therapy, the education, the medication, the love that you stuck with him, that your husband adopted him as his own and never complained when.

That is a very challenging stepchild to have. I try to put myself in these situations, and if my own kid was like that, you know, it's okay. How do you not love your own kid? But then it's like a step kid and it's tough. I don't know if I would also be able to do that and not complain, and that you managed to take care of your daughter through all that, and that you found the help and the resources you needed at every step of this journey.

You went to therapy yourself. You processed these very intense emotions. You found growth and healing and insight. Like I said, you're just functioning this well after all of this trauma and loss and that you can even tell the story coherently. It's just remarkable. You sound like a very resilient person.

Very evolved and I really commend you for that. The other thing I wanna say is. How do I even put this Delicately Fuck your POS son and his wife. What they've done here is just unconscionable to put it mildly. Look, your son is obviously unwell. I'm guessing his wife is a total piece of work too. No sane person does something like this, so I know we're supposed to have compassion for them, and on some level I do.

And Gabe's gonna tell me I should. They're sick people. They're confused. How's that, Gabe? Is that diplomatic enough? Perfect.

[00:30:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very convincing. This

[00:30:20] Jordan Harbinger: is not easy. All these years of cosplaying as a person with actual feelings is paying off for me clearly. Yeah. But anyway, to accuse your own mother of kidnapping you and raping you and molesting her kids and killing her husband and just trying to ruin her life forever so that you can get hands on some money that you are not even entitled to and at the expense of your sibling, it's insane.

It really is. It's disgusting. I'm enraged, and I've only just found out about this. Your son is a deeply disturbed individual. It's tragic. He was born like this to some degree for reasons by the way that are so mysterious. The basic wiring is not his fault, but as an adult, he now has a responsibility to take care of himself, to make decent choices, to take accountability.

And it sounds like he just doesn't even care to do that at all.

[00:31:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: And if he can't do that, then it's on everyone else in his life to protect themselves from him and his wife and just, I think stay far away.

[00:31:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. So on that note about your grandson, I'm so sorry you lost contact with him in all this, especially after building such a beautiful relationship with him.

In some ways that's the saddest part of all this. It's cruel, it's tragic for both of you. I would love nothing more for you than to be reignited for him to at least have one sane family member in his life. But honestly, I share all of your concerns here. I am quite positive that your son and daughter-in-law have told him a very different story about you, or they will, if they get wind of you trying to talk to him, there's no way that he can't have been affected by being raised by just awful people like this.

Even if he's not out of his mind or dangerous rebuilding a relationship, that'll probably involve some degree of deprogramming and that process. It's complicated, it's fraught. And then this thing you brought up about severe mental illness running in his mother's family, that is also very concerning. It doesn't mean he's inherited the same problems, but it sounds like there's a possibility.

Gabriel, I've mentioned before my mom's brother on this show that one of 'em, he was a drug addict. It's super manipulative guy, and he had a daughter, and I remember when she was like 3, 4, 5, we would have these little birthday parties and she was so cute and she really liked me. And then I didn't see her and now she's an adult.

She added me on Facebook and tried to talk to me. She's like, it's your cousin, dude. And I was like, Hey. And I told my mom and she was like, don't even talk to her. And I was like, why? She goes, I don't know her at all. Her dad was this way and there's just a very decent chance, she's just a total piece of crap who's trying to manipulate you and you shouldn't even talk to her.

And she's like, please don't. So I haven't talked to my cousin. I just ignored her. It made me feel really bad, but also my mom was like, you have a really good life. Do you really want somebody who's possibly like Uncle Charlie to join you and try to ruin your life? And I was like, no, that's a really good point.

Also, something I learned on one of my psychopathy episodes, it might have been James Fallon, when you're raised in the chaotic and abusive environment that can activate certain genetic factors for mental illness that might otherwise go dormant or unexpressed in a relatively healthy family, so Oh wow,

[00:33:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's fascinating.

[00:33:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is. So basically like let's say that you have, I don't know, a psychopath gene or some kind of gene that creates a mental illness, but you grow up and your parents are like these really attentive, nice people and you have these really supportive siblings. You might be really risk. Tolerant, like a psychopath who goes to Vegas and you're like, ah, I probably shouldn't have spent all that money, but, oh man, we had a hell of a good time.

We did a bunch of blow with my friends and your brother's like, dude, Jordan's a wild child, man, but he's cool and you're otherwise trustworthy kind of dude. But you just have that little streak. But if you're raised by, I don't know, Guatemalan drug cartel gangsters, you can become a murderous sicario because your genes get activated for sociopathy.

And the way that expresses itself is not, I don't know when to stop drinking in Vegas. Occasionally it's, I kill people that cross me and make me feel bad or something. It can really change the way that you act based on your environment. So yeah, you have to be careful because even though this is a sweet little boy who knows what's happened since then, a lot of traumatic stuff happens in a family with two psycho parents.

And even in a world where you could rebuild your relationship with him, you'd still just be exposing yourself to your son and his wife too. So even if he is this adorable little boy who grew up to be a nice boy and works a nice job. He's still got these terrible, crappy psycho parents who tried to ruin your life.

They're not just gonna find out he's talking with you and let that go. So candidly, I just don't see how fostering this relationship is a responsible move on your part. I. I absolutely get why you miss your grandson, why you wanna have a relationship again. One day I would feel the exact same way, of course, but after everything you've been through, you have more than enough data to know the risks that relationship would entail, plus the unknown risks of engaging with your grandson as an adult.

You've already been burned in so many ways by these people. I just do not think you can voluntarily sign up to be burned again. Now look, if you wanna make yourself findable, I don't hate the idea of registering with the 23 and me ancestry.com, whatever, be well-informed, be comfortable with the privacy implications and all that, which are complex.

I don't know. There used to be some thing where like people are afraid they're gonna sell your DNA. I'm not totally convinced that isn't something they already do. But if you do that and your grandson gets in touch one day and he's like. My parents are of their stinking minds. I know what happened. I'm so sorry.

I'd like to see you again. You're the only person I know who's not a total creep that I'm related to. If he seems relatively stable, insane, sure, you can entertain that, but I still think it comes with some big risks or at least some big questions. Just like when my cousin reached out to me. But that could be a sign that he's safe person to engage with or try to have coffee once.

I don't know. I just, I don't know if I would proactively reach out. Certainly not. While he's still a minor. Certainly not if he's still overly involved in his parents' lives, which would be really hard to know unless you reached out, unless you can do some sort of recon on your grandson before engaging with him.

Can you talk to any trustworthy people in his life? Friends, other family members, neighbors, teachers, anybody like that? Can you do some light social media stalking and see what his life is like? 'cause that might tell you a little bit. Just please be very careful if you do this because A, if you start asking people about your grandson and they tell his dad, that could just provoke him all over again.

God knows what he might do if he thinks you're targeting them or whatever. And B, I could see this bringing up some really tough feelings for you. Scrolling Facebook photos of your grandson, watching him grow up from afar, not being able to see him. I have to imagine that would be quite painful. So you have to be very thoughtful here and make sure you're taking good care of yourself.

Now, I. Gabe, I wanna say this grandson is a minor. If you are in a similar situation and this person is an adult, I would just look up his criminal records or do like a basic background check. If he's got 18 felonies, don't reach out to him. But if he's got a clean record and it looks like he lives in another state away from his parents, there's a sign that this is not a person that's dangerous.

The problem is this is a juvenile. You can't just look up his arrest record. It's gonna most likely be sealed. Unless you know somebody in the FBI is willing to lose their job over something like this, you're not gonna get a peek at that.

[00:37:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm with you. Unfortunately, I think she has to leave her grandson in the past.

It is so incredibly sad, and it means living with this wound and accepting that wound over and over again, knowing he's out there that he could probably use your love and your friendship, but that his parents have made it impossible. To be close with him is just awful. But yeah, there might be a day in the future where a relationship becomes possible.

Life is insane. Obviously. Look at the story. It might surprise her again in a whole other way, and maybe one day he'll be safe and stable and a new relationship becomes possible. I don't wanna get your hopes up, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. But even if that happens, I think Jordan is absolutely right.

You're gonna have to proceed very carefully. So your job, it seems to me is to stay far away from these people and to hope and pray for him from afar, which by the way, is a form of relationship with your grandson. It's not the one that you wish you could have. It's not the one you deserve. But I do believe that connection matters in some mysterious way.

I really hope he can feel that. I hope that it helps this guy survive this childhood and grow up into a relatively healthy, relatively high functioning adult. And then your job, I think, is to take care of yourself and continue to be a good mother to your daughter. She's in the background of this story.

She has been deeply affected by this nightmare too. I'm sure she deserves most of your love and attention. I'm sure you would agree with that. Like Jordan said, at the top, you sound like somebody who's very good at processing her emotions and making peace with these unspeakable situations. I think those skills are essential here too, because staying away from your grandson and from your son and his wife means coping with a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, a lot of regret, so much grief, but your ability to bear those feelings, that is part of how you can protect yourself.

[00:39:09] Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. Gabe, by the way, if I'm wrong about that juvenile record thing and somebody out there knows that there's. Some other way to do this. We are open to suggestions on this. You can test it by looking for my juvenile record, which exists really. So if anybody wants a little juicy homework assignment, you can go ahead and grab that.

Wow. Little dark Jordan is That's right. My origin story is in there. Yeah, and we can maybe grab this kid's juvenile record if that's a thing, but I'm almost certain they were like, don't worry, it's gonna be sealed when you turn 18. Oh, okay. I don't know how it all works. Exactly. We're gonna need a deep dive on that later.

I think that's right. One last detail here. We don't know how old your daughter is. I'm guessing she's also still a minor, but probably not for much longer. But in the event that something ever happens to you, like some random accident you get in a car accident, something like that, the last thing you want, of course, is for your son to become her guardian and for him to get access both to her and to your money.

That would be a nightmare scenario. So my strong advice here is to consult with an attorney immediately and set up a trust for your daughter and or emancipate your daughter now so she doesn't need a guardian. And then you could leave her all of your assets. You've gotta protect her from your son. A family attorney might also have other more elegant solutions for this, but this is absolutely crucial.

I'm not trying to freak you out, I'm just looking out for you. I don't even wanna say this out loud, but given what you've shared about your son, I don't trust this guy at all. He scares me. He obviously scares you. He could escalate, he could target you knowing that if you just disappear, something bad happens to you.

All those resources are his, and he sounds like a ruthless bastard. So please find good representation and protect yourself and your daughter. Whew, man. What a situation. I'm. Deeply. Sorry about all this. It's more than anyone should ever have to go through, but it's also taught you a lot about who in your life is safe, who should be your priority.

Keep listening to that data. Keep building a life that's loving and productive and doesn't land you in an interrogation room. Ultimately, that's the greatest gift you can give yourself. That's your responsibility and trust that your grandson will find his own path, either back to you or on his own, and that is his responsibility.

Man, Gabe, it's been a long time since I've wanted to give somebody a, a literal hug during a feedback Friday letter. We, we give the old, you know, hugs from California. I mean, I will. The things this woman has been through my heart just goes out to her. Seriously. Look, ma'am, if you ever see me out and about, don't even hesitate.

Just come right up and hug me. No warning needed. Just grab a couple handfuls of Uncle Jordan. I'm here for it. You're a freaking hero. You poor gal. Alright. You know what else is dangerously sociopathic the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what Fresh Hell awaits?

[00:44:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my 65-year-old neighbor, Dan is a wonderful man who has helped my family and me many times, even saving our house from flooding during one of the Florida hurricanes. He lives next door in a gated community that isn't opulent, but is very nice and full of decent professional neighbors.

Last year, Dan lost his job after 30 years as an engineer with a huge company. I'm a recruiter in a different industry and have done what I can to help him with his resume and job search. That is really cool of you, man. That's nice. Around the time he was laid off, he also split with his girlfriend, and I assume has been in a very lonely time in his life.

I started noticing signs that he's a problem drinker. Although he's always been an excellent neighbor, I've gleaned that he's been living entirely off of social security. Then yesterday I received a text from Dan with an urgent need to borrow $100. It was odd because we're not really that close, and my wife and I were flummoxed that he would ask me instead of his family.

I replied like I always do in this situation that I'm happy to help. As a one-time thing, the money is not a big deal, but I avoid becoming the go-to for anyone who's in dire financial straits. I obliged imagining that it was for food. The poor guy has become skin and bones in the last few months and looks like he's about to die from stress.

Then today I got another very distressed text from him asking to borrow another a hundred dollars and that there's a desperate situation that he'll explain later. Oh no. My Spidey senses went off and I had a feeling something was very wrong. I went over there and what he explained was more or less this.

I have a big problem with someone I love dearly. I've known her for like 20 years, and I can't wait for you to meet her in a couple of weeks. She's an architect who is traveling in Jakarta on work and had a horrible car accident two months ago. Her purse was stolen at the crash scene and she's been in a Jakarta hospital ever since.

She can't access her funds and can't leave the hospital without an important surgery. We just need another a hundred dollars to pay for the surgery and then she'll be on her way to live with me permanently here in the us.

[00:46:42] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh, no. This is giving me Dolores vibes from our Bad Bosses episode. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Oh

[00:46:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. The Mob wife work nemesis lady who is being scammed by her, uh, online British boyfriend.

[00:46:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's always like a British guy and then it's, yo, that's not a British accent on the phone. Hello? Or do I just watch too much? 90 day fiance? Yeah. She was probably going around the office bragging about her fancy new dude who's 22 and has six pack abs and you're, she's like a 65-year-old living.

The listener's like, oh God, do we tell her? You

[00:47:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: know what's interesting? Dolores's guy was also supposedly an

[00:47:12] Jordan Harbinger: architect. Good memory. That's right. I wonder if that's a coincidence or if that's just a job a lot of scammers use because it sounds fancy. Oh, maybe. Maybe it's project based, right? So you can have an excuse for being in Dubai for nine months.

Only something you can do across countries, unlike being a doctor or a lawyer. It's like, wait, you're a British doctor, but you live in Indonesia. That doesn't really add up. Right? Maybe it's easier to be an architect. The only thing I'm confused about is, is this neighbor pretending he's known this woman for 20 years.

Or he hasn't been targeted by her for 20 years. It's gotta be the former, right? Because otherwise he would've been involved in this romance scam while he was still employed and while he had his last girlfriend. Also, these romance scams, they're relatively new. I mean, this is an internet age thing. That's even the last five, 10 years max, maybe not even, they're not two decades old.

That's my point.

[00:48:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Certainly at this scale. But then if he's lying to people about how long he is known her, how does he not realize that this is a scam?

[00:48:09] Jordan Harbinger: There's a couple things that might be going on here. My hunch is potentially that the scammer stole the contact information of somebody he knows oh, and is telling a story.

So, you know, you hack an old lady's Facebook account and then you start messaging people, which is very common with these scammers. And then he's like, oh, it's my friend Angela, who I went to college with, or whatever. It's been 20 years, who I used to work with. So he actually knows that person and the scammer just grabbed their Facebook account and is now pretending to be them while they are locked out of it or, or have passed away or something.

Okay,

[00:48:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: that makes sense. But there's another possibility, which is that he hasn't known this person for 20 years. He just knows that people in his life are gonna find this whole story suss, and he's coming up with a backstory himself, which is even scarier, right?

[00:48:52] Jordan Harbinger: Like they'll never understand that I just met you six months ago and I've sent you $35,000 of my $36,000 retirement fund.

So I have to pretend I've known you for 20 years where I sound like an idiot.

[00:49:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or the scammer has told him to say that.

[00:49:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, totally

[00:49:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: possible. Oh, this poor guy. So the letter goes on. My heart broke for him in that moment. He says, this has been the most stressful time in his life. I believe him. He looks like he's been killed by stress a hundred times.

I imagine this person has taken everything from him, including his retirement.

[00:49:21] Jordan Harbinger: If he's borrowing a hundred dollars from a neighbor that he doesn't know his retirement

[00:49:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: is gone, he's in trouble. But we can't decide if we should intervene in some way. I'm worried that if we don't do something, his life is gonna become so wrecked that when he finally realizes that he won't have a happily ever after, he might hurt or kill himself.

Should I try to intervene? If so, how do I convince him that this is a scam when he has his entire life invested in this being real? Signed, hoping I'm not too late to protect the fate of my friend behind those gates. Oh man,

[00:49:52] Jordan Harbinger: what a tragic story. The fact that this is happening to thousands and thousands of people every day is just, isn't it insane?

It makes my blood boil. I hate these scammers. They're so gross. I make air quotes jokes about drone striking these scam centers, and I'm just not even kidding. Look, the creepy slavery call center operations, that force people to become scammers, I obviously have sympathy and empathy for the people that get labor trafficked.

They think they're taking a tech job in Thailand and they get kidnapped into Burma or something, or Cambodia. That's horrible. But this is so dark. The people they target, they're so vulnerable, they're so naive. They give away money. They don't have, it destroys families. People kill themselves over this.

It's just absolutely horrible. Yeah, you gotta intervene here. You at least have to try. Based on what you've shared, this guy is in serious trouble. And unlike Dolores, it doesn't sound like he has that basic level of self-awareness or skepticism or general savviness to realize that he's being taken for a ride.

The dude is 65 years old, he's lonely, he's isolated, he's vulnerable. He's struggling with what sounds like alcoholism, which is a bad variable to throw in the mix because of course it lowers his inhibitions, compromises his already probably poor judgment. He almost certainly has already lost his retirement.

This is bad.

[00:51:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he's a wonderful person, right? I think this guy deserves as much protection and help as you can offer.

[00:51:12] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent, man. So to get tactical here, I would contact as many of Dan's friends and family as you can if, if you have to track them down, do it. I would collaborate with them on staging an intervention of sorts.

First off, his family members, they are primarily responsible for him. You want those people to be aware of what's going on, and second, the more people he knows and trust, helping him see what's happening here, the better. It's hard to ignore 12 people in your life than one neighbor that you kind of know from passing or you're friendly with.

I'd get those people on an email thread or a Zoom call or whatever, and I would just put your heads together on how to intervene. Maybe his family wants to handle this themselves directly. Maybe they would welcome a big group conversation, whatever this intervention ends up looking like. This conversation is a very delicate dance, so you guys have to walk a line between being confrontationally enough that he realizes how serious this is and safe enough that he doesn't feel judged or attacked and doubles down on the fantasy, right?

So you want him to wake up and trust you guys to help him find a way outta this. And I would start by telling Dan that you all love him. You all care deeply about him. You're here because you're concerned and you wanna make sure that you're being good friends and family to him. Be kind, be gentle, be supportive.

Your tone and spirit are really gonna matter here. Then I'd move into some good open-ended questions. Those are gonna be your best tool here. I'd ask him things like, Hey, how long have you known? I don't know, Linda, whatever her fake name is. How long have you known Linda? How'd you reconnect? Who reached out to who?

Have you guys met up in person recently? Why not have you FaceTimed? Have you seen her live on video lately? Why not? Has Linda ever asked you for anything? When did she start asking you for money? How much has she asked for? How much have you given her? Do you share any other friends with Linda? Do you actually know those people?

Have they confirmed her story that she was actually in this accident? You said she asked for a hundred dollars. Do you know of any major surgery that costs a hundred dollars? Does that make sense to you? If she has her phone, why can't she access her bank account? If she's stuck in Jakarta, why hasn't she contacted her country's embassy to help with these problems?

You said that after her surgery, she'd come live with you here. Why hasn't that happened yet? Are you in touch with Linda now? What's the latest? Is she asking you for anything else these days? Stuff like that? Obviously he's gonna know you're probing and given how in deep he is, he may actually deflect or double down or shut down.

So you really do have to stick with him. You gotta keep reassuring him that you're on his team. You gotta keep making it safe for him to tell you the truth. That is crucial.

[00:53:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: That point is so important. Yeah, because like our friend said in the letter, I think Dan is probably gonna be riddled with shame if he realize realizes what has happened.

Because that's what keeps people stuck in these scams. They don't want to admit that it's happened because then they would have to confront the reality that they have potentially given away their entire retirement to somebody who targeted them. It's embarrassing. It is. It's very painful. So you have to create an environment where that shame and that pain are as minimal as possible.

[00:54:11] Jordan Harbinger: And my hope is that as he answers these questions, he starts to realize none of this stuff is adding up. And that's what you want for the victim to piece this together themselves with a little guidance. Once they see things, clearly most of the heavy lifting is done, but there's a world where, for all these reasons we talked about, he just refuses to connect the dots.

And then you guys might have to be a little more heavy handed and say, Dan, I know this must be really hard to hear, but you're caught up in a classic romance scam. Like so many people out there, and here's how we know. And then lay out the facts from and help 'em see why all of this just equals scam way.

It screams scam. And if he still can't see it, then I'd get creative. Ask him to ask her to video chat that day or the next day while you guys are in the room. Tell him to ask her if she can loan him 50 bucks for the gardener or whatever. Ask him to ask her to send her flight information for the trip to the States.

That way when she's like, oh, sorry, I can't right now, or all my money's frozen in some account or whatever, you guys can be like, do you see what's happening here, Dan? And if he still doesn't get it, you can watch some documentaries about romance scams on YouTube with him or something like that. Show him just how his story looks.

A hell of a lot like all the others. So hopefully he can take that in. At which point you say, I'm so sorry this happened, Dan, we're here to support you. We love you. We're gonna work together to make sure this doesn't happen again. At that point, it's mostly a matter of disengaging from the scammer. Once these parasites realize they're not gonna get any more money outta someone, they move on.

It's pretty simple. But someone in Dan's life, hopefully his family members, somebody's gotta educate him about protecting himself from people like this in the future. 'cause if he doesn't understand how these scams work, if he doesn't identify the qualities that led him to fall prey to somebody like this, it could just easily happen again.

Especially as he continues to age and live alone and further decline. Also, you can Google blocks of text that the scammers have sent you. Not everything, of course, but a lot of the core script, they use it on everybody. So if you Google something like Architect Jakarta, car accident purse, stolen scam, you might find half a dozen Reddit posts with the exact same story.

And that's another way you could show Dan that tons of other people have gotten the exact same message.

[00:56:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, that's a really good idea. Because people are posting about these scams more and more. So it's a great way to do research. There are also some good resources for helping elderly people who are caught up in romance scams.

One of the best actually, is Adult Protective Services. We talk about them on the show a lot. They can actually investigate cases where an elderly person is being targeted in a romance scam. They can also do things like coordinate with law enforcement. They can offer counseling, legal intervention, financial safeguards.

They can connect the victim with community resources. They can even help with guardianship or conservatorship if the person can't protect themselves because you know they're going through cognitive decline or some other vulnerability. Although Dan's family should know that petitioning for guardianship is generally the absolute last thing a PS pushes for, especially if the victim has all of their faculties in every other way, which maybe Dan does.

So whether you end up being involved in this intervention or not, I would strongly consider filing a report about Dan with a PS, and I would do it soon because it might take them a little time to follow up, but I would also talk to his family about this and coordinate with them so you guys are on the same page.

[00:57:23] Jordan Harbinger: It's so sad because these people, they prefer the fantasy to their reality. The reality is sad, right? Yeah. He's a single lonely alcoholic who's broke. By the way, if Dan doesn't realize what's happening and he won't play ball. His family should absolutely consider getting conservatorship over him. That might be the only option because again, these people, they're allergic to reality.

They don't want reality to be what's happening. They prefer the fantasy. That's what they're paying for. That's something I would mention to them, but man, it's a process. They're gonna have to talk to a lawyer. They gotta decide if they want to go that route. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that. It might already be too late, but sometimes it really is the only way to protect an elderly person from scams like this.

They just can't control their own money.

[00:58:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: We're also gonna include several other great websites and organizations with a ton of resources about this in the show notes, including the A RP Fraud Network. Highly recommend checking them out, and I would definitely share them with Dan's inner circle 'cause these links could be great prep for you guys for this intervention.

[00:58:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there are also some dark Jordan ideas here, inspired by some things I've seen on Reddit. Of course, I am. Not advising you to do any of these things, that would be ridiculous, but it's fun to imagine. And I got a new dark Jordan soundbite. I think the Bain one is fun, but this is better

cheap. Most of you probably know. Yeah, little ac d dc, dirty deeds done, dirt cheap, dirty dudes. It's a little dark. Jordan Anthem. So one idea. You could send Linda a quote unquote payment by email, and you could include a little snippet of code with a tracker that reveals the person's IP address when opened.

Oh, good one. There are a lot of services that do this. They're often free or like super duper cheap. You can probably find something like this online easily. Then when the scammer opens it and the IP address says Burma or Cambodia or whatever, you can show that to Dan, and that's gonna be a hard piece of evidence that he's gonna have to confront.

Oh, she's in Jakarta, Indonesia. That's interesting because this is being sent from China, right? Oh, I don't know. The Internet's complicated. I mean, okay, fine. That's another piece of it is another dark Jordan idea. Get Dan's credentials, get his email, social, whatever he is using to communicate with the scammer.

Contact them pretending to be him. Tell them, oh, I'm moving to a new email address. I'm setting up a new WhatsApp account. Here's the information my family took control of the old ones. Don't contact me there 'cause they'll cut me off. And then you guys can intercept all future communication and just ignore them or end the relationship on his behalf.

Just set them down. Easy to say, he's totally broke. I'm totally broke. I hope that's okay. Block the scammer on his other devices. This one's kind of mid, but it could work with a person who doesn't understand technology well enough to be able to find that person again and reach back out to them.

[01:00:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: One other idea that's occurring to me is if the scammer is in fact impersonating somebody real in his life, could they find that person?

Maybe she has like another social account or a phone number. You can find this stuff fairly easily online. Contact her, tell her what's going on. She reaches out to Dan directly and says, Hey, I haven't been communicating with you.

[01:00:23] Jordan Harbinger: So if they are indeed taking over some old friend of his Facebook account, and that's sort of what started this, which I think is less likely, but you never know.

Yeah. You could find her unless she's passed away or something like that. In which case you can find relatives that will go, oh no, I'm Angela's son. She died in September. I'm sorry, you're not talking with her. Her Facebook account. Oh look, I can't log in or No. Her Facebook account was taken over by hackers a few years ago and she actually passed away.

You're absolutely not talking with her or, yes, she's right here. Let me ask her. Hey, do you remember a guy named Dan who you worked with 20 years ago? I don't know. I don't think so. Okay. Well you're certainly not talking with her 'cause she doesn't remember you. That would be nails in the coffin. The problem is that he's probably lying about having known her for 20 years.

It's probably just a random person to reach out to him,

[01:01:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: you think?

[01:01:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh man, I'm so sorry this is happening once again. But I'm very happy that he is you looking out for him. He's very lucky. Reach out to the people in his life, collaborate with them. Be forceful but loving. Shut this down before it ruins them if it hasn't already, and he'll thank you for it one day.

Good luck, man. These people have their work cut out for them because again, people who fall for this, they prefer the scam, the fantasy to reality. That's the main issue. But there's a special place in hell for these scammers. There really is. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise.

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[01:02:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work on a small team within a hospital. We provide an advice service, not direct patient care, which is essential in reducing strain on the healthcare system. I. I knew from college that this is what I wanted to do.

I love my job, the interactive aspect, outreach, policy development, and process improvements. The problem is both our small team and the organization as a whole are broken. I was the first new hire in 20 years, and problems are deeply ingrained in our service. We operate 14 hours a day, 365 days a year with just less than 10 staff, over 50% of whom are part-time, including our manager who works only three days a week.

Staffing is so tight that breaks are frequently impossible and the higher ups don't grasp the full scope of our work. I've spearheaded change since starting here, implemented incident reporting and a risk register. Improved external collaborations and organized many outreach programs to increase awareness of our service.

Yet progress is still slow. We request additional staff annually, and these requests are denied without explanation. Our manager is too stretched to advocate for change, and we have no backup plan for variables like a staff member leaving manager absence due to illness or the wave of retirement that will be coming in a few years.

I fought for improvements for four years, but it's exhausting. Reporting this to the governing bodies isn't truly anonymous in such a small workforce. So I fear backlash. Recently, a new job opportunity has come up. It would mean an initial pay cut, but it's a larger organization with hybrid work, which would improve my quality of life.

But this is a service I've always been passionate about and I understand the benefits. So part of me definitely wants to stay and fight, but it's becoming exhausting. Also, my employer paid $15,000 for a course I just completed. I hesitate to leave, although I never signed an agreement to stay or even agreed verbally.

At what point do I stop fighting and move on? Do I owe them more time or is it time to put myself first? Is there anything else I could do to advocate for change or make us be noticed by higher ups? Signed looking for relief from the powers that be before I flee despite this pricey course fee I.

[01:04:45] Jordan Harbinger: Good question.

Look, I know next to nothing about the healthcare industry, but what you're dealing with, it's something professionals deal with in all kinds of organizations, in all fields all the time, and it's just, it's always a conundrum whether to keep pushing for change or to jump ship. So first of all, I love your passion.

I love your commitment. I love your sense of loyalty. I get the sense that this team is lucky to have you. All of those qualities are great. They also have the potential to hold you back if you're getting strong signals that it's time to leave, and I'll come back to that in a moment. Second, this job sounds objectively challenging.

Very dysfunctional, under-resourced, for sure. And those are really hard things to deal with long term. Given how important this service seems to be to the hospital, to the patients, it is a shame that they're not giving you guys what you need slash are taking advantage of how hard you guys work. Or maybe the hospital doesn't even feel you guys are as valuable as you are.

I don't know. It also sounds to me like there's a failure of leadership here. You said your manager is stretched too thin to advocate for change, that they're part-time, which is weird, but if they don't advocate for change, which is primarily their job as the boss, then I don't understand how things are supposed to change.

And it sounds like they absolutely need to change. Things could go downhill quickly in the next few years. If you as a leader are too overwhelmed, you strategize, you prioritize, you delegate to free up time to focus on making sure that this place can actually survive. But maybe your manager just isn't motivated or incentivized to improve things.

It's weird that it's a part-time manager of a whole department. So I'm having two reactions here. One response is it may very well be time to leave. You've put in a ton of work. You've tried to improve things. You see the writing on the wall. It might absolutely be time to put yourself first. Yes, it's less money, which sucks, but then you get more flexibility, more control, and a better life, which counts for a lot, how much that counts.

Whether it's more important sticking with this work that you understand and really care about. Only you can answer that, and I'd encourage you to start thinking and talking about that with some trusted people and see where your head and your heart are at. But then I'm also having the thought. If you really care about this team and you have the option to jump ship anyway, why not try to push for change a little bit more boldly?

I know you said that your requests have fallen on deaf ears, and like I said, that itself might be a really important signal to pay attention to. Either this place is hopeless or the hospital doesn't value you guys as much as it should, and that sucks objectively. But if you can't argue with it, then it makes the decision to leave much easier.

I know that you also said reporting this up, the chain might result in retaliation or backlash, which if that's really true, that can be scary and I get it. But you can also look at this as an interesting challenge, an opportunity to flex your leadership muscles and grow here. For example, this manager of yours.

It sounds to me like they're kind of asleep at the wheel, or they're just ducking responsibility, or they're just too afraid to really advocate for what you guys need for whatever reason. So what if you approached them and you said, look, we all know this is unsustainable. We are spread too thin. We don't have plans in place for X, Y, Z event.

There are big changes coming. If we don't get out ahead of this, we're gonna be in real trouble. So let's put our heads together. How can I help? What do you need to communicate this to the higher ups? How can we help them understand what we do here? Who do we need to build relationships with at this hospital to have influence?

And basically just step up and be the fuel and inspiration your manager needs if they're open to that from you. Of course. If not, then again, this might be hopeless and you know it's time to leave. It's not that you have to do any of this. It might not ultimately be your job, but the difference between an employee and a leader is that leaders make things their job, they take on responsibility.

They step into bigger and bigger roles. They look for open doors when other ones are closed. I. You've been a brilliant operational employee. All these initiatives and processes you've implemented with great success. So part of me is going, is this a chance to flex some other muscles? Why not step up and show how you would lead?

What do you have to lose? But honestly, it's been so long since I've worked at a company, I might be off your game. You cosplayed as a corporate guy for a little while, way back when. What is your gut telling you here?

[01:08:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: First of all, I resent the implication that I was merely cosplaying. I was a real stuffed suit.

Based on those very few years in corporate life, I'm with you completely. It's hard to know exactly why their organization is not giving them the resources that they need. It could be a few different things, but the thing that stands out the most to me in this letter is this thing he said about the higher ups, how they don't appreciate the full scope of the work that they do in this department.

So that tells me that the people in charge have not been made to understand why this team matters, why it deserves resources, what's gonna happen if they don't receive that help. So there's a gap here. And the best way to fill that gap is to tell the story of their department to the bosses and to your point, that's a huge part of leadership, just storytelling, just basic influence.

So I'm also excited to think about what would happen if he took the initiative here. And even if he failed completely, I bet that he would grow a ton. It's a great skill to have.

[01:09:33] Jordan Harbinger: And if he did fail, then he'd really know that it's time to leave. And I think that would be super useful too. Then he won't leave and go like, oh, I wish I'd stayed.

I wish I'd done more.

[01:09:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no regrets at that point. That does not need to be adversarial. Look, it is adversarial. If the executives are like, yeah, we're not gonna help you stop bothering us, you're on your own. But I would think of this as a conversation. It's an opportunity really to say, Hey guys, maybe we haven't always been the best at explaining what we do, but we really believe in the mission here.

This is crucial to the system and to our patients, and we want you to know why it matters and what we need. And we're grateful for the chance to do that today and talk to them one day. And then maybe you could share some of your personal experience working on this team as somebody who's actually in the trenches.

And I bet that would make quite an impact on these higher ups. And nothing about that needs to be agro or personally risky to you. So that's my take. And like Jordan said, if it's a no after that, then it's probably always gonna be a no. And then, yeah, probably time to jump ship and don't even look back.

[01:10:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Thank God you were a consultant, Gabe. There was a time when you just couldn't go to work in a spiritual, gangster, functional athleisure wardrobe every day.

[01:10:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't that weird to think about? Yeah, it was like, uh, gray pants and blue shirt every day,

[01:10:41] Jordan Harbinger: five

[01:10:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: days a week.

[01:10:42] Jordan Harbinger: That would get tiresome. Yes, it sure would.

Even when I was a lawyer, they just said, have a suit at work. You don't need to wear the suit to work. It just sits in your office in case you need to do something. I never used, uh, a handful of times about that course. 15 grand is a lot of money. Sure, I get why it makes you feel bad for leaving, but if you've never agreed to stay for a period of time after that or whatever, then you're good to go.

If your team needed that from you, they should have gotten that in writing or even verbally. Again, I love that you're conscientious and loyal. You're a real one, but if this place is a hot mess and there's no fixing it, I wouldn't stick around just 'cause you feel bad about some course they paid for. Be grateful they did.

Go apply it to what you learned in your next job. I hope that gives you a way forward here though. My sense is that you're probably moving on one way or another, but it might be worth giving this a shot. You can never go wrong by taking initiative. It's always educational. It's always expansive, even when you fail, and hey, you might be surprised or you'll be relieved.

Love your attitude amigo. Love that you have options. Keep up the great work and good luck. Speaking of biting the hand that feeds you, why don't you grease the hand that feeds us by checking out the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Happy to dig up those codes for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday and now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler.

[01:15:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is this cashew butter by a company called Morena Products. This is hands down the best cashew butter I have ever tried in my entire life.

And it's not just your regular cashew butter in a jar or whatever, ship it. It has shredded coconut and dates and cinnamon, and they have all these different versions of the product. It's amazing. It's gluten-free, raw, and vegan. I actually bought a jar as a present for my mom when I was traveling and I brought it home and she tried and she was like, bro, this is the greatest cashew butter I've ever tried in my life.

It's by this company called Morena Products. We're gonna link to their website and their Instagram in the show notes. Little bit pricier maybe than what you would find at the average thing at the grocery store, but so worth it and also an amazing gift.

[01:16:40] Jordan Harbinger: I feel obligated to make fun of you for this, but I can't quite put my finger on why,

[01:16:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: because it's bougie and hippie-ish and vaguely ridiculous.

Although for a guy who plugged chia seed, putting not once but twice on the show, I feel that you're on very shaky ground here.

[01:16:55] Jordan Harbinger: I maybe, but like cashew butter that is bougie and hippie-ish and kind of ridiculous. Gluten-free, vegan raw. You're doing the roasting for me. I did it for

[01:17:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: you. I'm gonna get you a jar and then we'll see what you have to say after that.

[01:17:07] Jordan Harbinger: I would actually love a jar of this. Of course you would. I love stuff like this, by the way. Cashew butter, different butters, nut butters. There's something about nut butters. Man, I love peanut butter straight up, but if you can get fancy peanut butter, that's not even peanuts anymore, it's like, wow. Take me to atium.

It's gonna change your life. This stuff, man. Also, in case you didn't know, there's also a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or specific nut butters, you can find that on Reddit and the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay, next up.

[01:17:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I just turned 20 years old and I just ended a relationship of four years. We started dating when we were in high school, and I never pictured myself marrying anyone else. As of the beginning of this year, he had bought a ring and was planning to propose, but decided not to go through with it. It was really hard to hear.

He wasn't ready, but I was grateful. He didn't propose if he wasn't feeling confident. This also allowed me to start seeing some red flags as a middle child and people pleaser slash fixer, I would make excuses that enabled him to be selfish. Over the past two years, he made comments about my makeup, hair, music, and general lifestyle choices.

All of these comments were hurtful because I've done a lot of self-discovery and he knew they were things that I loved about myself. He would also constantly complain if I wanted to go on a date that involved driving or when he had to drive two hours to attend my best friend's wedding that I was in.

In general, he just never made an effort to be with me for the majority of our relationship. I usually saw him once a week. It also feels weird that my day-to-day isn't really gonna change.

[01:18:46] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I'm gonna hold off, but this does not sound like a great partner. Certainly not the right partner for you.

[01:18:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

It helps when your partner's willing to get in the car to hang out with you.

[01:18:54] Jordan Harbinger: Generally a plus. Yeah. And doesn't complain when you have to attend major life events together. Gabe, I'm wrapping my head around this. They were gonna go from seeing each other once a week to being husband and wife. Such a leap.

[01:19:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder how often they would've seen each other if they did get engaged. Fine, I'll see you twice a week now. As long as

[01:19:12] Jordan Harbinger: you drive over to my house. Yeah, exactly. Alright, fine. I'll drive another 10 minutes to see you now that I put a ring on it, but I'm not gonna like it.

[01:19:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: He did have some great qualities, but I usually didn't see that side.

I romanticized our relationship in my head. He was my prince. Charming,

[01:19:28] Jordan Harbinger: of course. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, yeah, you'd have to overlook and idealize quite a bit in order to be with somebody like this. Otherwise, why would you stay? I'm glad you're seeing this more clearly now anyway.

[01:19:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I woke up last week and realized I do not deserve to be in a relationship where I'm not a priority.

It didn't even seem like he liked the person I'm becoming. I thought for a long time that he was my person until I realized my person wouldn't need to be told to respect my boundaries and basic needs. Yeah, of course it settled, not your guy. He freaked out at first when I ended things, but I stuck to my decision.

We were able to talk and realized we were both over the relationship and no one wanted to deal with the problem. I'm empowered by my ability to finally advocate for myself. I also took comfort in the fact that he seems to be willing to do a lot of therapy and self work to address his issues, but I also recognize that's no longer my responsibility.

Yes, bravo. At the end of the day, I'm confident I made the right decision and it ended in the best way I could have asked for. It's still super fresh, but I don't feel any anger towards him. But I am left with a lot of complicated feelings and unsure where to go next because. I never let myself think of life without him.

What in the world do I need to do to heal? I. Signed looking to commune with you two dudes on what to conclude from the still fresh wound.

[01:20:49] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, I understand all of this. So first of all, I'm sorry you went through all this with your ex that you're hurting. Breakups are just always painful, even when they're absolutely the right thing to do, which this clearly was.

You've been with this guy since you were 16. You thought you were gonna marry him. This is a big transition to go through, not just saying goodbye to your partner of four years, but saying goodbye to an old identity, a lifestyle, a way of being, a set of expectations, a future you imagine all breakups involve a lot of warning and it can be super intense.

At the same time, though, I'm not really sorry that you went through this breakup because like you said, it clearly needed to happen. It's very obvious to me this guy was not your person. I know you see that quite clearly now too, which is great. I also find that all of these painful experiences, these unexpected changes, they always end up serving us always.

Just look at how much you've learned since you ended this relationship, how much you now understand about yourself, all these skills you've been able to develop, standing up for yourself, having hard conversations, recognizing the boundary between you and your ex. This is profound growth. So I feel for you, because I've gone through this kind of thing myself, but I'm also heartened and honestly pretty inspired by everything in your letter.

So I'm not sure how much help you actually need in healing here, my friend. It sounds to me like you're already healing and healing in the best way, which is feeling your feelings fully, allowing them to evolve naturally. Learning from this relationship, trusting that your instincts were correct, even reaching out to us for thoughts.

But I will share a few thoughts with you. The first is this period after a breakup. Yes, it sucks. Yes, it hurts. Yes. It's weird and scary and it's also very powerful, very clarifying. The insights you get after a breakup. The feelings you're in touch with, the relationships and opportunities and places you get to dive into.

Those are one big reward and you get to navigate them almost as a new person, which is pretty cool. So I would give yourself permission to do that. Maybe even push yourself to do that when you're ready, because that's a huge part of the healing process.

[01:22:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. One of the interesting parts of falling out of love with someone or just ending a relationship is this chance to fall back in love with yourself.

Oh yeah, I am pretty awesome. What do I want to do today? Like, here's what I think and feel about the world. You forget how fun you are sometimes when you have all this time to spend with yourself after you've been in a relationship for a while. Yeah, it's a great feeling. It's a really special feeling and it's not that you can't be connected with yourself when you're with somebody else.

That's the sign of a good relationship. But being in a relationship, especially one like this, it does have a way of taking you away from yourself and it sounds like covering up some of her authentic feelings and taking up just a lot of energy. And when you end things, you get to live on your own terms.

Again, you get to rediscover yourself. Maybe even discover parts of yourself for the first time, like our friend here is doing and that is exhilarating.

[01:23:35] Jordan Harbinger: I remember that feeling when I was young. You get so wrapped up in a relationship and then it ends and you're heartsick for a week or two and then all of a sudden you're like, oh wait, yeah, I'm free.

I can see all these people. I can finish that project. I can go to color me mine at 2:00 PM on a Tuesday and make a weird mug. The world is my oyster.

[01:23:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: That was your post break appealing routine color. Me, mine on a Tuesday. Hey, don't

[01:23:57] Jordan Harbinger: judge man. I was 24 and I needed a new mug. Okay.

[01:24:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, 'cause the girl kept it in the breakup.

Is that it? That's right. I lost the

[01:24:02] Jordan Harbinger: coffee mug in the divorce. It

[01:24:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: was

[01:24:04] Jordan Harbinger: brutal. This is why you

[01:24:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: need a prenup, by the way.

[01:24:07] Jordan Harbinger: I know. Lesson learned. Never making that mistake again. Alright. Point is let yourself fall back in love with yourself and with the world, even if it still hurts. Those are parallel processes.

The other thing I wanna say, and I apologize for pulling the old dad card here, but as a middle aged person, I can offer some perspective here. You are 20 years old. You are so young. You got together with this guy. What? Like sophomore year of high school? I'm assuming this is your first big relationship.

You're evolving rapidly as you should, and you're entering a really exciting time in your life where you get to play and explore and try on different identities and learn a ton. Even if this relationship with this guy had been amazing, there would still be a part of me going, uh, I'd love for you to have some time on your own.

Not that you can't be happy when you marry your high school sweetheart. Of course you can, but settling down young does have big opportunity costs. So this period, it's actually really important for both of you. I would argue also, since this is your first big breakup, all this probably hurts a whole lot more.

Take it from two older dudes, your fourth, fifth, your 10th breakup. It always sucks, but it's not gonna hurt nearly as much. Okay? Nope. You build up this muscle, you have way more perspective. Yeah. Your defenses get stronger as you get older. Exactly. But not always a good

[01:25:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: thing, but it can be useful for sure.

Diminishing, uh, marginal heartache.

[01:25:20] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. That old cornerstone of economics. So again, a big part of healing is just letting yourself go through it, knowing that you're gonna be raw for a little while, and over time this heaviness will lift on its own, like we talk about a lot, grief has its own timeline.

There's usually not a lot for you to do in terms of hurrying it along. The healing process is happening in the background, so to speak.

[01:25:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: So trust that

[01:25:42] Jordan Harbinger: too.

[01:25:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, for sure. The part of the healing she does control though, is what she learns and takes away from this relationship because all of these great insights that she's having now, that is, to your point, Jordan, the reward for the pain.

That's what creates meaning. And the meaning is a big part of healing too. I think that's what allows us to go through really painful stuff in life and to come out the other side and say like, oh, that was brutal, but. I now see this pattern. Clearly, I'm now in touch with this quality in myself. I now have that goal, or I've developed that capacity that I wouldn't have had if this relationship hadn't ended.

So I find that that meaning becomes a kind of medicine for the pain.

[01:26:18] Jordan Harbinger: One of the best examples of that is when she said that she's empowered by her ability to finally advocate for herself. That's pretty remarkable. 'cause it's not until you're forced to take your needs seriously and risk disappointing or hurting someone else that you realize, oh, I can stand up for myself.

I can say the hard thing. I can appropriately put myself first. That's one huge gift of this particular breakup.

[01:26:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: The other amazing moment is when she said that she knows she can't control his growth. He's not her responsibility anymore. Amen. Yeah. That is basically the opposite of Codependence. So that's also huge.

[01:26:49] Jordan Harbinger: It's another huge step forward. Or maybe she's just so over this dude. She doesn't care whether he talks about his apathy in therapy. Yeah. Should have driven to the Alamo draft house for date night, pal, without grumbling about it. Anyway, I'm, I guess I'm not really kidding. Yeah, there's

[01:27:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: a little truth to that.

Also, this thing, she said at the very end how she's not sure where to go next because she'd never let herself think about life without her boyfriend. That's also a really important piece of all this. I get the sense that she feels a little dazed after the breakup. She's unmoored, which of course she does her whole life for four years, and the whole future she imagined was with this guy.

So to go from that structure to just wide open ocean can be very disorienting. And depending on your personality and your life experience and your age, of course, being pushed into that uncertainty brings up all sorts of feelings, namely fear, of course, which is very normal. The flip side to that uncertainty is pure possibility.

So many things are possible now. So to Jordan's point a moment ago, I'm not sure if there's a ton for you to do here. It's more like you have a cool opportunity to get friendly with this feeling. Just getting friendly with it, at least getting curious about it. That is very healing too. So you say you're not sure where to go next, and I'm over here thinking like, great.

How exciting. How interesting. Painful, scary. Yes. But also very exciting. The older I get, the more I come to appreciate that we don't really get anywhere by necessarily knowing where we're going. We get places by following goals and pursuing people and exploring places that peak our curiosity and teach us things and light us up.

But knowing where you're headed, that can be very useful. It gives you a trajectory, but we rarely get exactly where we think we want to go in life. And in my experience, that destination is. Besides the point

[01:28:37] Jordan Harbinger: totally. It's only when you look backward that the map looks coherent. It's all grasping in the dark, isn't it?

Journey over destination and all that.

[01:28:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So try to hold that idea close and embrace this uncertainty, which means making peace with the fear and the confusion and all of that. Those feelings are not inherently bad. They're just byproducts of the gift of not knowing what your life is gonna be like now.

Which by the way, that's usually a gift at any age, but I think it's especially a gift at 20 years old when you're really just beginning your life. It is exactly where you're supposed to be.

[01:29:08] Jordan Harbinger: Certainly more than sitting at home wondering why her boyfriend doesn't want to drive 10 minutes to come hang out.

But yeah, totally agree. Gabe, she's on an exciting path. Sorry, you're hurting friend. But like I said, I'm also not sorry this breakup needed to happen. And look what it's already done for you and for him. You're both growing, which is the whole point of life, and now you know so much more about who you are and what kind of person you wanna be with.

Keep moving through this transition with that mindset and I know it'll take you to some great places, sending you a big hug and good luck. Go back and check out Layla mle Wait and our Skeptical Sunday on cannabis. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

The circle of people I know, like, and trust. Check out our six minute networking course. I harp on it every single episode of this show. It's free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy. It's on the Think iFit platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take just a few minutes per day. I really wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago.

You gotta dig that well before you get thirsty. Folks. Build relationships before you need them. All for free@sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers deals, ways to support the show at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Rahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Rahi.

This show is created in association with one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a bit of the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You are about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with former NBA Superstar and American Icon Shaquille O'Neal.

[01:31:01] JHS Clip: I'm flick the channels and I see j. I wanna be a rapper. Say, flick the channel again. I see a guy doing a great sitcom. I want be an actor. Of course, I'm a sports guy. I want to be Frank O.

Harris. The Immaculate Conception. I want to be Reggie Jackson hit a home run. My father made me write from A to Z what I wanted to be. So A was a basketball player. B was a basketball player. I actually got in trouble for that. Dr. J changed my life. Dr. J was the guy that said, okay, now I know what I wanna be when I grow up.

I had some good grades and my father took me to a game. We're way up in uh, Madison Square Garden, probably the top row. Born game, Dr. J Gold baseline, throw it down. The whole arena stands. It actually scared me 'cause I thought something was happening. And I look at my dad's like, I know what I wanna be when I grow up, dad, I wanna be down there.

I've won on every level except college, little league, aau, Olympics, junior Olympics. So as a youngster, when I used to play and win, he would let me celebrate the trophy. One day I'd come home after school and it'd be gone. And he was the type, you never asked him, where's the trophy at? So if I finally asked him when I got older and he said, I did it.

'cause I never want you to be satisfied. I want you to always want more as a player. So even as a youngster, when I was a player and I wasn't that good, that wasn't stopping me because I knew that because of my work ethic, I was gonna be somebody. And once I saw Dr. Ch, it was all about believing.

[01:32:25] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta ask or people are gonna get mad.

What's going on with the flat earth thing? Are you are? You're just messing with everybody with that.

[01:32:31] JHS Clip: It seems to be flat. Would you like to hear my theory?

[01:32:35] Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about how Shaq makes important business decisions and manages his expansive career, check out episode 6 91 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.