956: Cannabis | Skeptical Sunday

956: Cannabis | Skeptical Sunday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today, I am here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, Michael Regilio. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. From spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. On Sundays though, we do Skeptical Sunday where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic such as — Why the Olympics are kind of a sham? Why tipping makes no sense? E-commerce scams, diet supplements, the lottery, Reiki healing, banned foods, GMOs, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, we've got starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

[00:01:11] Today, growing up in the 80s and 90s, I was told that cannabis was the devil's weed and one should avoid it at all costs. Kids were dared to just say no and scared with over the top ads. Today, some say that cannabis is a cure-all from everything from anxiety to chronic pain. What is the truth? Are the alarmists right in their belief that cannabis is the downfall of humanity or are the herbalists of today onto something when they push the medical flower? Comedian, Michael Regilio is here to give us the straight dope on weed and let us know if it's a medical miracle or if the hype is just smoke and mirrors.

[00:01:45] Michael Regilio: Hi, Jordan.

[00:01:46] Jordan Harbinger: Hi, Michael.

[00:01:47] Michael Regilio: Hmm, let me rephrase that. High, Jordan.

[00:01:51] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm. Yes. I see what you did there. No, I'm a busy man with a lot to do. So I am not high in this particular moment.

[00:01:56] Michael Regilio: Well, there's some that will tell you that it's a shame that you're not. As you said, cannabis today is purported to have many attributes that are good for you. This is in stark contrast to just 15 short years ago when we were told that our brains on drugs were not unlike fried eggs in a frying pan.

[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: I do remember that ad. And they didn't say cannabis, they said drugs.

[00:02:18] Michael Regilio: Ah, yes. The problem being for the last 53 years, we have classified cannabis as a Schedule I narcotic. The same as heroin, meth, coke, all the bigs of the drug world.

[00:02:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, all the fun stuff is on Schedule I. Even back in the days of Just Say No, that kind of seemed ridiculous. Cannabis has always had a bad rep.

[00:02:39] Michael Regilio: Uh, I'm gonna just say no to that notion. Cannabis historically always had an excellent reputation, and it's been around a long time. The first recorded use of cannabis was in 2737 BCE or as historians say, "A long ass time ago."

[00:02:56] Jordan Harbinger: Easy on the academic jargon there. This is an audience of layman.

[00:03:01] Michael Regilio: I'll try to dumb it down for you. Legend has it, Emperor Sheng Neng of China believed to have ruled around 5,000 years ago, prescribed cannabis tea. The earliest Hindu sex in India used cannabis for religious purposes and stress relief. Ancient physicians prescribed cannabis for everything from pain relief to earaches. In fact, Hindus believed that God Shiva brought cannabis to earth and not just for human use. Turns out the God, Shiva was also a big fan of the plant.

[00:03:30] Jordan Harbinger: The notion of a God needing to get high is a little strange.

[00:03:34] Michael Regilio: Hey, it's hard running the universe. Different cultures consumed it in different ways. Some cultures mixed it into food. In India, they had a drink called "Bhang"

[00:03:44] Jordan Harbinger: Bhang sounds like a sketchy energy drink that you'd see for sale at a truck stop In rural America. Are you sure it's bhang? Because it's spelled B-H-A-N-G. So it could also be bong, which by the way, is more on brand.

[00:03:58] Michael Regilio: You're overthinking this one, Jordan. In 440 BCE, Herodotus wrote about cannabis steam baths. In the second century, Greek doctor, Galen prescribed cannabis as medicine, and Chinese doctors used cannabis for surgery.

[00:04:11] Jordan Harbinger: I assume they used it on the patients, right? Or were they just so stressed out about the surgery they had to perform?

[00:04:19] Michael Regilio: I am guessing it was the former. Although, interestingly enough, that was one of the PSAs of the 1980s that today plays more like a Saturday Night Live sketch. A surgeon stands over a patient smoking a joint while the narrator opines, "If your surgeon was smoking pot, would you still consider it harmless?"

[00:04:40] Jordan Harbinger: Pretty silly point. If your surgeon was drinking scotch, would you still consider it harmless?

[00:04:44] Michael Regilio: I wouldn't want my surgeon drinking even an energy drink before surgery. Interestingly enough, the Chinese made cannabis into a kind of wine.

[00:04:53] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Weed wine. I see these guys definitely understood the multiplier effect over there in ancient China.

[00:05:00] Michael Regilio: I guess the original dispensary was somewhere along the Silk Road, man. Anyway, during the Middle Ages, Muslims in the Middle East used cannabis. The Qur'an strictly prohibited alcohol, but there was no mention of cannabis.

[00:05:14] Jordan Harbinger: Is that true? Is it okay for Muslims to smoke pot? I've never heard that before.

[00:05:18] Michael Regilio: Well, in the olden days we're referring to here, it was Hashish, with Morocco and Afghanistan being the biggest exporters of this potent concoction. But as far as the modern Muslims go, it's still debated. Most people agree that using cannabis for recreation goes against Islamic law, but using it for medical reasons is a different matter.

[00:05:40] In 2014, the Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad-Sadiq Husayni Rohani of Iran issued a fatwa or a legal religious ruling. It stated that spiritual plant medicines and psychedelics are halal for Shia Muslims, with supervision.

[00:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: Psychedelics too?

[00:05:58] Michael Regilio: I guess if you're gonna trip, you got to do it with your mom.

[00:06:01] Jordan Harbinger: I do have a friend that still trips with his mom. We, uh, I mean they, gnaw shrooms and sit around and watch Alfred Hitchcock movies. Hell of a time.

[00:06:10] Michael Regilio: Sounds like a blast. But I said Imam, Jordan. Imam. It's like a religious leader in the Muslim tradition. Okay, back to the history of cannabis. Both the French and the British had their colonists grow cannabis in the new world.

[00:06:24] Jordan Harbinger: So our country was founded on weed? Nice.

[00:06:26] Michael Regilio: And slavery and misogyny.

[00:06:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I forgot about that part for a sec. It's interesting that this episode is about weed, because you're being a little bit of a buzzkill, Regilio.

[00:06:37] Michael Regilio: You're starting to sound like my Imam. I mean, my mom. In the 1700s, doctors widely prescribed cannabis as medicine in the Western world. The Irish Doctor, William O'Shaughnessy, popularized its use as pain medicine.

[00:06:50] Jordan Harbinger: It probably works better than a four leaf clover.

[00:06:52] Michael Regilio: Definitely. I've tried smoking clover and nutmeg and oregano. Because back when I was in high school, cannabis was illegal and sometimes that's all a kid could get, which gets me to the first person to outlaw cannabis. Napoleon Bonaparte. When the little French General learned his soldiers had brought cannabis back from Egypt and were getting high, he outlawed it.

[00:07:15] Jordan Harbinger: I'm surprised for a little shorty, you'd think he'd wanna get a little higher.

[00:07:20] Michael Regilio: Oh boy. Napoleon was onto something. He may have been a little harsh on Hashish, but people in his time realized that drugs and alcohol use were problematic. In 1868, the British passed the first drug laws — banning some drugs. Around this time, people thought the cannabis use caused mental illness.

[00:07:40] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:07:40] Michael Regilio: This, as we'll see later, is debatable.

[00:07:43] Jordan Harbinger: So we're still debating, Reefer Madness, madness, madness.

[00:07:48] Michael Regilio: Not so much debating as looking at the data. In 1894, the British were concerned about cannabis use in India. In lieu of keeping those they colonized in line, the British established the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission. The thing is, they found that moderate cannabis consumption was not detrimental and found no link to mental illness.

[00:08:10] Jordan Harbinger: So, no Reefer Madness, madness, madness. Besides, you'd think that if you were trying to subjugate a population like the Brits did in India, you'd be fine if they were just stoned all the time and shoveling snacks into their mouth instead of marching on your colonial forces, wanting human rights and all that stuff.

[00:08:27] Michael Regilio: Good point. Well, soon the smoke was starting to blow in the other direction, and cannabis reputation worsened. So much that in 1906, the US government passed the Pure Food and Drug Act, which said cannabis was dangerous and must be labeled before being sold. And because history loves irony, in 1913, California became the first state to ban growing cannabis.

[00:08:55] Jordan Harbinger: My how the turntables.

[00:08:57] Michael Regilio: Indeed. Then, in 1914, the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act passed. And Congress tightened restrictions on drugs in America.

[00:09:07] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it really was a free for all. I know there was cocaine in the cola, and heroin in the cough syrup. And maybe tightening restrictions on narcotics wasn't that out of line.

[00:09:17] Michael Regilio: Hey, there's a reason it was called the "Good Old Days" During that period, there was also the Mexican Revolution, which brought many Mexicans, north to the United States. And just like any group entering America, they were met with racism and xenophobia.

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: Well, the Statue of Liberty says, "Send me you're poor, you're tired." but it does not specifically say anything about people actually being nice to them when they get here.

[00:09:43] Michael Regilio: I guess that fine print is on the back of the statue.

[00:09:47] Jordan Harbinger: And it's probably in French.

[00:09:49] Michael Regilio: Oui. Yeah. One thing that people attacked was that many Mexicans smoked their cannabis.

[00:09:55] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:09:55] Michael Regilio: And they didn't call it cannabis. They had their own word for it. A scary, foreign-sounding word. They called it marijuana.

[00:10:03] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:10:04] Michael Regilio: The racist seized on this and demonized both the Mexicans and the marijuana. And in 1925, 26 states had outlawed the evil marijuana.

[00:10:15] Jordan Harbinger: I guess if they couldn't outlaw Mexicans, and you know they probably tried back then, they could take away their fun. I do wonder how things would've been different if Mexicans had called it Freedom Flowers or something like that instead.

[00:10:28] Michael Regilio: That is actually a great idea. Hey Idaho, it's still illegal in your state. Are you listening? Freedom Flowers. Anyway, the next blow for cannabis came with Harry Anslinger. He was the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics and a racist piece of garbage. He had cannabis directly in his crosshairs.

[00:10:49] Jordan Harbinger: So he had a problem with cannabis because he just didn't like Mexicans?

[00:10:52] Michael Regilio: Oh, no. Anslinger was an equal opportunity racist. But don't take my word for it. Take his. Here's a quote from him and I — because it's so racist, I need to — this is him speaking. This is his words that I'm reading. Quote, "There are hundred thousand total marijuana smokers in the US and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. They're satanic music — jazz and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with the Negroes, entertainers, and any others." end quote.

[00:11:34] Jordan Harbinger: So it makes you not racist and cool and sexy to white women. Which by the way, sounds like an argument for marijuana, but that's just me. Do podcasters count as entertainers? Asking for a friend.

[00:11:47] Michael Regilio: Oh, he wasn't finished. There's also this gem. Quote, "Reefers makes darkies think they're as good as white men." End quote.

[00:11:57] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, maybe we need to stop quoting this guy. Classy dude.

[00:12:02] Michael Regilio: That's a very good idea.

[00:12:04] Jordan Harbinger: So reefer undoes the crippling psychological effects of hundreds of years of brutal racism? Anslinger, where can we get some of that?

[00:12:11] Michael Regilio: Mind you, cannabis was still legal in some places, but it was on its way out. Anslinger famously collected wild and exaggerated stories about cannabis use and placed them in the press. And in 1936, the film you've already referenced came out, Reefer Madness.

[00:12:29] Jordan Harbinger: In Truth, it's a really — it's a funny movie because it's so ridiculous. Teenagers are taking a single puff off a joint and they just murder their whole family. Or they run into traffic, they jump out windows, or worst of all, they listen to jazz music.

[00:12:43] Michael Regilio: Right. Well, the propaganda worked. And not surprisingly, the following year, Congress passed the Marijuana Tax Act, which was written in part by Anslinger himself. The other force behind the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act was the petrochemical industry. DuPont in particular.

[00:13:01] Jordan Harbinger: DuPont, like the DuPont who makes a lot of the products in my garage? The stain master carpet we all saw on the TV in the 80s?

[00:13:07] Michael Regilio: Yep, that DuPont. In the 1930s, DuPont invented cellophane made from petroleum. As well as nylon, made from petroleum. Cellophane was set to become standard packaging for most American goods. And nylon, standard for most American fabrics. Around the same time, Henry Ford was promoting chemurgy, which fuses industrialization with raw materials, the best being cannabis.

[00:13:33] Jordan Harbinger: Now it's time for sponsor madness, madness, madness. We'll be right back.

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[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show, are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also use the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support us.

[00:15:07] Now back to Skeptical Sunday.

[00:15:12] Why did Ford consider cannabis the best raw material?

[00:15:15] Michael Regilio: Because the outer fibers of the cannabis plant can be used to make clothes, fabrics, ropes, and packaging — all better than nylon. The inner fibers of the cannabis plant could be used to make wood for construction.

[00:15:26] Jordan Harbinger: Let me guess. Ford wasn't friends with the DuPonts or Anslinger.

[00:15:30] Michael Regilio: Bingo. Cannabis was suddenly a huge threat to the DuPonts and other business moguls like William Randolph Hearst. Hearst owned most of the newspapers and paper mills then, and viewed cannabis as competition.

[00:15:43] The US Secretary of Treasury, Andrew Mellon, was heavily invested in the DuPont company and feared cannabis costing him money. But they were in luck. Mellon's son-in-law was none other than Anslinger. So, he was easily appointed to the new Federal Bureau of Narcotics, which developed the Marijuana Tax Act.

[00:16:06] Jordan Harbinger: So the Treasury Department basically, went to war with weed over money.

[00:16:12] Michael Regilio: Uh, pretty much. Hearst, Mellon, Anslinger and the DuPonts had a lot of reasons to hate cannabis, and a lot of those reasons were financial.

[00:16:20] Jordan Harbinger: So big business was just looking at the bottom line. That, by the way, is actually Reefer Madness.

[00:16:26] Michael Regilio: Reefer Madness, otherwise known as, business as usual. Except for Henry Ford, but he was in the minority. DuPont was the number one shareholder in Ford's major competitor, General Motors. Even the Rockefeller family of Standard Oil viewed cannabis-sourced ethanol as competition. Henry Ford's first Model T used cannabis to make the acrylic skin, upholstery and ran on cannabis-based ethanol. Were it not for the Marijuana Tax Act, today, we would at the very least, be seeing a line of Ford cars run on biofuel.

[00:16:59] Jordan Harbinger: Besides Ford, was there any other opposition to criminalizing cannabis?

[00:17:03] Michael Regilio: Yeah. Actually, the only other opposition to the legalization was from William Woodward of the American Medical Association.

[00:17:11] Woodward said no evidence existed that marijuana was dangerous and that outlawing it, quote, "Loses sight of the fact that future investigation may show that there are substantial medical uses for cannabis." End quote. He was of course, defeated. And on October 2nd, 1937, a man named Samuel Caldwell became the first person in American history to be arrested for selling marijuana.

[00:17:38] Jordan Harbinger: Sadly, it would seem that Mr. Caldwell started a tradition.

[00:17:42] Michael Regilio: Yep. 23 million people have followed, and continue to follow. Here's the thing, our government knew all along that marijuana wasn't nearly as bad as the hype. Take the findings of the LaGuardia report. In 1939, New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia commissioned a report on the effects of cannabis. The New York Academy of Medicine issued an extensive research report declaring that contrary to earlier research and popular belief, the use of marijuana did not induce violence, insanity, sex crimes, or lead to addiction or other drug use.

[00:18:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But what about listening to jazz music? Did they ever get to the bottom of that one finally, or what?

[00:18:22] Michael Regilio: Sadly, that remains inconclusive. But having smoked a little pot and listened to a little jazz in my day, I think there's something to that, anyway.

[00:18:30] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. A little anecdotal evidence.

[00:18:32] Michael Regilio: Yeah. Anslinger trashed the report, calling it unscientific. And don't forget, Anslinger had a powerful ally, William Randolph Hearst, who put his media empire to work on demonizing weed.

[00:18:44] Jordan Harbinger: Gotta love that a politician who stands to make a boatload of money off of demonizing something, can simply take a report from the Academy of Medicine and be like, "Nah, I don't like that science, so I'm just gonna say that's not science." And then throw it in the trash and do whatever you want anyway. At least Hearst, wasn't against cannabis for racist reasons. It was just pure greed, which I don't know, is that a little better, I suppose?

[00:19:09] Michael Regilio: Uh, sure? In 1951, Congress passed the Bogs Act, which created a mandatory minimum for all drug crimes. In 1956, the Narcotics Control Act passed, which gave stricter mandatory sentences for marijuana related crimes. And just like prohibition did for alcohol, these laws were making marijuana more popular than ever.

[00:19:31] Jordan Harbinger: Is that true? It was the laws that were making marijuana popular?

[00:19:34] Michael Regilio: Well, obviously there's no way to say for sure, but there's certainly some correlation. When the US government prohibited alcohol, drinking went up. When they did the same with cannabis, marijuana came out of the jazz clubs and into the counterculture. Enter the 60s.

[00:19:51] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So if this was a documentary, we'd now be obliged to show Jimi Hendrix playing, All Along the Watchtower during whatever cut scene this is.

[00:20:00] Michael Regilio: Yeah. It would be one big montage. Look, in the 60s, both the counterculture of the hippies and the American soldiers in Vietnam became big fans of cannabis. Congress then passed the Controlled Substance Act, which made cannabis a Schedule I drug. The classification it still has today.

[00:20:18] Jordan Harbinger: It's so strange. It really makes a mockery of federal drug laws that a drug that is sold in every corner store, in so many states, is still classified as a schedule I narcotic Makes no sense.

[00:20:30] Michael Regilio: Yeah, it makes things unnecessarily difficult, as we'll see in a bit. But we're just getting to the next bad guy in the story of cannabis, Richard Nixon.

[00:20:40] Jordan Harbinger: Nixon a bad guy? No way.

[00:20:42] Michael Regilio: Yeah. In 1972, the Shafer Commission founded by Richard Nixon, found that marijuana was, in fact, not as dangerous as other drugs and recommended it be decriminalized. This, of course, did not play into Nixon's hand. Arresting hippies was his way of controlling the protests against the Vietnam War and quashing opposition to his administration. So instead of decriminalizing marijuana, he did the exact opposite. He declared a war on drugs and established the Drug Enforcement Administration or the DEA.

[00:21:19] Jordan Harbinger: So he knew what was right, and he just did the opposite, merely for political gain. Classic politician move, right there.

[00:21:26] Michael Regilio: Sure is. There's this rather damning quote from former Nixon domestic policy chief, John Ehrlichman, quote, "If you want to know what this war on drugs was really all about." The Nixon campaign in 1968 and the Nixon White House, after that, had two enemies — the anti-war left and black people. "You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black. But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and the blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." End quote.

[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And then evil cackle there, I think, at the end. Now I take it back. That is not a typical politician, that is next level messed up. So, wow, okay. I used to work with all these guys who were in Nation of Islam, which I don't know if you're familiar with.

[00:22:29] Michael Regilio: Yeah, Louis Farrakhan.

[00:22:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Sort of this kooky like, African American — almost like a gang kind of thing, like a movement. I would work with them and they were not thrilled about working with me, I guess. But I was too naive to care. And they had all these conspiracy theories and they would say things like that. And I thought, "Okay, a lot of this is made up." Don't get me wrong. A lot of what they said was made up. But they were hip to this stuff, man. And I remember them telling me about this, and then they would just follow it up with how bad Jews and white people were because they were colluding something, something. But this definitely adds a layer of color over those conversations.

[00:23:02] Michael Regilio: Yeah, that's interesting. And I got news for you, it gets worse. In 1975, the Supreme Court ruled — it is permissible to give out sentences for marijuana offenses for up to 20 years in prison.

[00:23:16] Jordan Harbinger: I'm legitimately getting angry about this. That is awful.

[00:23:19] Michael Regilio: Let me just add this in. African Americans are arrested for violating marijuana possession laws at nearly four times the rate of whites. Yet both groups consume marijuana at roughly the same rates. And while I'm on it, even though cannabis is legal in many states, marijuana is half of all drug arrests. Someone gets arrested for cannabis every 58 seconds. This is despite the fact that the majority of Americans now live in a state where cannabis is legal.

[00:23:49] Jordan Harbinger: All right. So I've gone from sad to mad, to even more mad.

[00:23:53] Michael Regilio: Yeah, it's rage inducing. In 1980, Reagan was elected and conservative values rule the day, and not in a lovable Alex P. Keaton kind of way. Nancy Reagan, the Just Say No campaign, the Dare Movement, and the Partnership For A Drug-Free America became mainstream. Law enforcement cracked down, even harder on marijuana, with the previously mentioned racist disproportionality.

[00:24:18] Jordan Harbinger: It's morning again in America and everyone's in jail for weed.

[00:24:21] Michael Regilio: But you know what? It really was a new morning in America. Attitudes changed and changed fast. I don't know if it was the bad hairstyle of the 80s, that people were running away from, but beginning in the 90s, a real pushback against the draconian cannabis laws began to flower and bloom?

[00:24:40] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, that was way too cute by a mile.

[00:24:42] Michael Regilio: And in 1996, California passed Proposition 215. The first state to outlaw the cultivation of cannabis became the first to relegalize it, medically, in this case.

[00:24:56] Jordan Harbinger: What a turnaround for California.

[00:24:58] Michael Regilio: And we all know what happened since then. 38 states allow medical cannabis, and of those, 23 allow recreational use.

[00:25:06] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. This might seem a little late in the show for this, but what is cannabis? I mean, everybody knows in a broad sense, what it is. But what makes a person high?

[00:25:15] Michael Regilio: Actually, the more appropriate question is, what are we?

[00:25:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, okay. But let's not get all Sam Harris over here. But fine, let's see what you got.

[00:25:25] Michael Regilio: Okay. Maybe it's more — why does cannabis interact with us the way it does?

[00:25:31] Jordan Harbinger: All right, so we're going the ZDoggMD route. I can dig it.

[00:25:33] Michael Regilio: The answer is the endocannabinoids system.

[00:25:36] Jordan Harbinger: I feel like I've heard of that in a biology class or something. What is the endocannabinoids system?

[00:25:42] Michael Regilio: It's a biological system in the body that helps regulate and balance key-bodily functions like mood, energy, balance, and appetite. It runs completely through our brains and bodies.

[00:25:51] Jordan Harbinger: It's always kinda like the nervous system?

[00:25:54] Michael Regilio: And that it's a control system through our bodies, yes. The endocannabinoids system regulates functions through naturally occurring cannabinoids produced inside the human body. These natural cannabinoids interact with cannabinoid receptors, of which there are many.

[00:26:09] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I'm with you so far.

[00:26:11] Michael Regilio: Cannabinoids also exist in other places in nature, such as cacao, which is why dark chocolate makes us feel a certain way. It's interacting with our cannabinoid receptors.

[00:26:22] Jordan Harbinger: So being a chocoholic could kind of be a real thing?

[00:26:25] Michael Regilio: Sure is. I have my six-month chip from Chocoholics Anonymous. Sadly, they made it out of chocolate and I ate it. Cacao isn't the only plant that produces cannabinoids. I am betting you can guess the other?

[00:26:39] Jordan Harbinger: Is it cannabis?

[00:26:41] Michael Regilio: Correct. Cannabis has over 100 different cannabinoids, but for our purposes today, we're just gonna be talking about the big two — THC and CBD.

[00:26:52] Jordan Harbinger: I'm pretty sure everybody's heard of those. You can't kind of not, if you hear any ads for anything anywhere in California.

[00:26:59] Michael Regilio: Right. And I'm pretty sure everybody knows the THC or tetrahydrocannabinol, is the one that gets you high, and CBD or cannabidiol, is the one with purported health benefits.

[00:27:11] Jordan Harbinger: CBD is everywhere these days, at least in California. You can literally go and get a fricking latte with CBD at the corner coffee shop, just in case you wanted to ruin a good latte.

[00:27:22] Michael Regilio: Yeah. CBD is so ubiquitous in California that I'm pretty sure I saw a happy meal with CBD.

[00:27:28] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe not.

[00:27:28] Michael Regilio: But the thing is, it's probably not doing anything because you need a 100 grams of CBD for your body to absorb any of it. And products like lattes and teas you buy at the store have 20 grams or so.

[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: So the effects are all kind of psychosomatic at that dose?

[00:27:43] Michael Regilio: Essentially. The point is, our bodies and our brains already have the receptors in place to interact with cannabinoids. The thing is, cannabinoids like THC are way more powerful than the ones our bodies make. Like a thousand fold more powerful. When consumed, psychoactive components are absorbed into the bloodstream and cross the blood brain barrier. The effects are quick. Way quicker than say — drinking a scotch and soda. Cannabis, when smoked, enters the brain within 30 seconds.

[00:28:15] Jordan Harbinger: Cannabis — from when you wanna get high and you don't have a single second to spare.

[00:28:19] Michael Regilio: What kind of high you experience depends on the strain of cannabis you've taken.

[00:28:23] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, you are of course, referring to indica and sativa.

[00:28:27] Michael Regilio: One might say that I'm reefer-ing to them.

[00:28:31] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, no. How about no?

[00:28:32] Michael Regilio: Oh, come on. I've resisted pot puns up to this point, and you won't even give me this one?

[00:28:37] Jordan Harbinger: Nope. Just say no to crappy puns. Nancy Reagan taught me that.

[00:28:41] Michael Regilio: Fine. Well, you are right. The two main strands of cannabis are sativa and indica. There's also a strain called ruderalis, but that's so seldomly used. We're just gonna skip it. Sativa and indica give different highs because they interact with our brains differently. Let's start with sativa.

[00:28:57] Sativa plants are taller than indica and have longer leaves. Sativa is considered more of a stimulant. Users feel more alert and focused one on it compared to indica. Sativa is a mood elevator and makes people talkative and some call this a "Head high" Sativa does this because it's activating receptors and the prefrontal cortex of the brain. Sativa can reduce stress. It is believed to have some pain management properties and gives users a heightened sense of importance towards their activities.

[00:29:28] Jordan Harbinger: That explains why my old neighbor, a DJ, thought it was okay to jam out at 11 o'clock at night and why he's so into jazz of all genres. It's interesting that you said head high though. What other kind of high could there be?

[00:29:41] Michael Regilio: Body high, my man. Indica is considered a body high. It relaxes you physically. That's why it's colloquially called "Indicouch" Indica is more of a sedative. This is because indica suppresses the amygdala part of the brain and also shuts down the hippocampus. The indica, variety of cannabis, can lead to defects in memory. Indica is often used for sleep disorders and anxiety relief.

[00:30:08] Jordan Harbinger: Relief from the leaf, eh? So those are your options — get talkative or turn into a couch potato.

[00:30:14] Michael Regilio: Heck no. In fact, it's actually pretty rare to find pure sativa or indica these days. We live in the age of hybrids. Through plant genetics, growers have souped-up that boring old cannabis and crossed sativa and indica into many hybrids that have qualities of both plants.

[00:30:32] Jordan Harbinger: You know what brings euphoria without inducing psychosis? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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[00:31:30] Again, all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

[00:31:36] Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

[00:31:40] To be honest, I always, for years, just thought that people who said, "Oh man, you don't like weed? It gives you crippling anxiety, Jordan? Oh, you're just smoking the wrong strain, man."

[00:31:50] I thought those were just hippies who could not wrap their minds around the idea, that me, panicking and trying to call my mom about homework I forgot to do in the 8th grade was not my idea of a good time.

[00:32:02] Michael Regilio: It's hilarious. And while we're talking about the genetic manipulation of cannabis, it's worth mentioning, they've also souped-up the amount of THC.

[00:32:12] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:32:12] Michael Regilio: Whereas, the THC and the cannabis we discussed at the top of the show might have been in the low single digits. Modern cannabis is over 20 and 30% THC.

[00:32:23] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, not your father's pot.

[00:32:25] Michael Regilio: No. My father's pot was kept in a coffee can above the fridge, and was loaded with seeds and stems. He was getting hosed by his dealer for sure.

[00:32:35] But as far as modern pot goes, growers have gotten so good at manipulating the plants that there are all new categories of hybrids. Type one, type two, and type three.

[00:32:46] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, what do those types mean?

[00:32:48] Michael Regilio: Those refer to the THC to CBD ratio plants have. Type one has the most THC and a little CBD. Type two has less THC and more CBD. And type three has very little THC, mostly CBD.

[00:33:02] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose now is a good time to ask. What is CBD, actually?

[00:33:07] Michael Regilio: CBD, just like THC, is a cannabinoid. Only CBD doesn't get you high, but has other distinct effects. Many believe CBD has many great medical uses.

[00:33:18] Jordan Harbinger: Well, you said many believe. So is there just no solid evidence to back up the claims yet or what? The studies are still ongoing?

[00:33:25] Michael Regilio: Uh, okay. Well, let me start by saying that there is a very effective seizure medicine on the market today that is derived from CBD. So yes, CBD has medical merit. But according to Margaret Haney, PhD, professor of Neurobiology at Columbia University Medical Center and a leading cannabis researcher, the claims are quickly outpacing the research because cannabis is still a Schedule I drug. This stuff is really tough to study.

[00:33:55] Jordan Harbinger: It just seems like with the number of people using legal cannabis, the government should make it easier to study, you know?

[00:34:02] Michael Regilio: Well, I'm happy to say that there has been some movement in that direction. President Biden is backing the reclassification of cannabis from Schedule I to Schedule III. Until then though, most medicinal claims aren't always backed up with hard data. Plus, most of this stuff is subjective. There's the placebo effect. If you think it's helping you sleep, it helps you sleep. If you think it's calming you down, it calms you down. If you think it's helping you write good poetry —

[00:34:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, then you write really terrible poetry. Got it. Okay.

[00:34:34] Michael Regilio: Yes, that is true. But the fact remains, that we're in the realm of the brain body connection. It's an intersection of things we still have a lot to understand. Let's list a few proven positives of cannabis and CBD. There's firm evidence suggesting cannabis treats the side effects of chemotherapy — multiple sclerosis spasticity, chronic pain, sleep disorders, neuropathy, appetite loss, and inflammation.

[00:35:00] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta say, a show fan did send me a bunch of CBD gummies that are super strong. It's 40 plus milligrams or something. I took one thinking, okay, CBD is mostly a scam. Every other time I've taken CBD, it's done nothing. And these things, half of one of these things knocks me right out. And I kept them for a sleep aid and they absolutely put me down. But I don't know, maybe it's not just CBD in there because I think they're made in California, so I don't think they have to get it completely right. They can probably just put in some THC and then it's not — they're not breaking the law per se, by doing that, by including THC. So anyway, those are all good things in my estimation, right? Those are disorders that drive people either crazy or involve a lot of pain. And if CBD's helping with that, then awesome.

[00:35:44] Michael Regilio: Yeah. One of my best friends has MS. And he does take CBD for his leg spasticity. And he claims it works great so, awesome.

[00:35:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Placebo or not, kudos. Alright.

[00:35:56] Michael Regilio: Alright, look, so now let's get into the bad things. Most of the issues we're gonna discuss are from chronic use. Chronic use is considered more than twice a week.

[00:36:05] Jordan Harbinger: Chronic use of the chronic. Tale as old as time. Twice a week though, sounds pretty tame compared to most of the stoners I know who are probably twice before lunch kind of guys.

[00:36:13] Michael Regilio: Yeah, I know. Me too. Well, actually, I wanna get to this before we get to the really bad things. You won't be surprised to learn the somewhat benign effect of chronic use. Stoner voice and stoner laugh are real and documented.

[00:36:26] Jordan Harbinger: Stoner voice is real? I thought that was just some Hollywood nonsense.

[00:36:29] Michael Regilio: Come on, man. Stoner voice is totally real.

[00:36:34] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like you talking when you're not on your 7th cup of coffee before we record Skeptical Sunday.

[00:36:39] Michael Regilio: Very funny, man. Look, chronic users experience disruptions in motor circuitry, which leads to stoner voice. It's not just Hollywood, man. It's real.

[00:36:48] Jordan Harbinger: It's funny and interesting, but it's not exactly life-changing, negative effects. I mean, if that's the brunt of it, okay, fine. So you talk like a stoner. What else is new? Who cares?

[00:36:57] Michael Regilio: Uh, true. But there are actually real negatives. Let me emphasize this. The most negative effects from cannabis use come from when you smoke.

[00:37:07] Jordan Harbinger: Like what time of day you roll up that fatty?

[00:37:09] Michael Regilio: No. At what point in the brain's development you use cannabis? Let's start with the most crucial, in your mother's womb. It is beyond terrible to smoke pot when you're in your mother's womb.

[00:37:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you don't wanna be a stoner baby.

[00:37:26] Michael Regilio: Obviously, it's the mother who is using cannabis. Experts say, this is really, really bad. THC crosses the placenta. Fetuses have cannabinoid receptors and can't handle THC or CBD. Experts are very, very clear on this. Don't use cannabis or CBD when you're pregnant. Like none, zero, zip. Yet shockingly, there are women that do it.

[00:37:51] Jordan Harbinger: It's insane and sad, but I do — I know plenty of women out there who think that CBD especially or pot, is just harmless.

[00:37:57] Michael Regilio: The problem is, like I said before, the hype on medical cannabis and CBD is way ahead of the data. So there are literally people telling pregnant women to take a little CBD.

[00:38:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:38:09] Michael Regilio: I know. It's terrible. If you're fortunate and you had a mother who didn't use cannabis, you can still screw it up. Specifically, for young men. By using cannabis at the other crucial time in the brain's development, youth.

[00:38:23] Jordan Harbinger: You said, especially for young men. Does the research specifically point to men? And if so, why? What's up with that?

[00:38:29] Michael Regilio: Well, it does specifically point to men. Obviously, chronic use is a bad idea for young women as well. But in young men, the fact of the matter is the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed. It develops later for young men, that does for young women. Prefrontal cortex is kind of the part of the brain that runs the equation and sees consequences. Which is why young men do stupid things up until they're in their 20s. Because they have an idea and their brain doesn't run the movie forward and show them the consequences. Whereas young women, it develops earlier. And that's why they say young women mature faster than young men. I can think of about 800,000 stupid things I did until I was 22 or 23.

[00:39:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, you can go almost all the way up to 30 for me, I think. I might have been a late bloomer. Or maybe I'm just viewing a lot of the stuff I did in my 20s with,a hindsight here. But you mentioned that you can still screw it up, especially for young men by using cannabis during your youth. But that, unfortunately, that's obviously when young men try cannabis.

[00:39:28] Michael Regilio: Yeah, full disclosure. That's what I tried cannabis. Again, the effects are far worse for chronic use. It can lead to depression and anxiety. In fact, chronic cannabis use makes people four times more likely to experience depression, especially among younger people. Studies show that early use of cannabis on a developing mind can lead to psychosis at later ages.

[00:39:51] Jordan Harbinger: Psychosis. Yikes. That is terrible. I used to confuse psychosis with schizophrenia. I know that psychosis can be a result of schizophrenia, but what is that? Is that just sort of a basic break in reality?

[00:40:03] Michael Regilio: That's my understanding. Psychosis is a part of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a larger panoply. A larger picture. A collage of disorders, I imagine. And for those who use cannabis as young as 12 to 14, the probability of schizophrenic episodes, more than doubles.

[00:40:20] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow. Okay. So yikes. Do experts understand why that is?

[00:40:24] Michael Regilio: Studies show that adolescent cannabis use accelerates the thinning of the prefrontal cortex and gray matter in particular. The more cannabis used, the more impaired those neural circuits are.

[00:40:36] Jordan Harbinger: So uh, kids, just say no to drugs?

[00:40:38] Michael Regilio: Oh no. This episode is turning us into a couple of Nancy Reagan's.

[00:40:42] Jordan Harbinger: Well, Nancy is the new Karen.

[00:40:45] Michael Regilio: Okay, but here's the good news. If you're over 25, it's kind of all good.

[00:40:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:40:51] Michael Regilio: Of course, smoking or vaping, anything comes with dangers and chronic use is not a good idea. But these dangers, the ones we just talked about, cease to be as serious. But I should mention, for people who are predisposed to mental health issues or violent tendencies, using cannabis can actually trigger these things and they should never use cannabis. I, myself, had an experience like this one time.

[00:41:16] Jordan Harbinger: What do you mean?

[00:41:17] Michael Regilio: 20 years ago, I was living in a studio apartment in Echo Park, California. Which is full of musicians and artists. Guilty as charged.

[00:41:24] Jordan Harbinger: Sounds like a bunch of marijuana users, if you ask me. But okay.

[00:41:28] Michael Regilio: You nailed it. And so there's a guy working on the —

[00:41:30] Jordan Harbinger: Were there any Filipinos there, Michael? You can tell me the truth.

[00:41:35] Michael Regilio: I will admit there was jazz music. And so anyway, they were redoing the apartment next door. And there was a guy working and he seemed like a nice f-guy. And I got into a conversation with him one day and I said, "Hey, on your lunch break, pop over to my place and uh, we'll smoke a joint." he's like, "Okay, sure." He came over, seemed like a nice enough guy. We're chatting, we smoked a joint. He changed so completely. He started banging his head against my wall. Then he was staring at a Beatles poster and he turns to me and he's like, "John Lennon knew about 9/11. You know that right, man? You know that right, man? John Lennon knew about 9/11. I was like, "I did not know that." And then he started going, "You're afraid I'm gonna hurt you."

[00:42:16] Jordan Harbinger: Whoa.

[00:42:16] Michael Regilio: "You're afraid I'm gonna hurt you, aren't you?" And I was like, "Uh, no. I'm afraid you're gonna kill me. I'm hoping you'll just hurt me at this point."

[00:42:24] Jordan Harbinger: You didn't say that though.

[00:42:25] Michael Regilio: I'll go right — no, of course not. But I was like, right now, hurt's best case scenario in my mind.

[00:42:29] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God.

[00:42:30] Michael Regilio: And I'm no expert. I can't diagnose this guy. But I watched him have some sort of episode and it was clearly brought on by the marijuana. So that might be anecdotal, but there's something to that. So, yeah.

[00:42:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But that — I mean, that happened. That's really scary. That's really scary. And he — that's happened to him before, I would assume. Because he didn't — maybe he just read your fear, but I assume he's had that happen before and then people go, "Hey man, I'm afraid you're gonna hurt me. Let's go outside, or you have to leave." and that's why he said, "Oh, you're afraid I'm gonna hurt — "

[00:42:59] Michael Regilio: Yeah.

[00:42:59] Jordan Harbinger: So man, that guy should stay away from that stuff. That's really, really scary. Gosh.

[00:43:05] Michael Regilio: Yeah. Look, the fact of the matter is this is a low percentage of people. So back to the good news. If you're over 25, it's generally safe to smoke pot, in moderation.

[00:43:15] Jordan Harbinger: Unless you react like that, in which case, you should definitely never do it again. Yeah, no, that's —

[00:43:20] Michael Regilio: Yeah, for sure.

[00:43:21] Jordan Harbinger: That's scary. But it's good because adults are gonna be smoking for the foreseeable future as weed becomes more and more legal or ingesting. I don't smoke anything because I need my voice to make a living. And it would be kind of a dumb way to go out, or at least to have to retire if I was smoking something. But you know, a little weed mint or something like that on a holiday or at night, whatever, you know. But here's something I've wondered about. Is there a good sobriety test for cannabis?

[00:43:46] Michael Regilio: No. Alcohol is water soluble. Therefore, the amount in the bloodstream or breath is a very good indicator of impairment. But cannabis is lipophilic. Meaning, it lives in the fat cells and there is no good sobriety test. So it'll be hard to enforce as states legalize cannabis. But that one minor problem is insignificant compared to all the good those tax revenues will do for those states, which is the really good news about cannabis.

[00:44:15] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I have to imagine those taxes are doing well, doing a lot of good.

[00:44:19] Michael Regilio: Right. Some of the cannabis tax revenue goes to education related initiatives like school construction, school food programs, before and after school enrichment programs, public libraries, environmental cleanup, law enforcement and drug prevention programs, among a bunch of other stuff.

[00:44:37] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that is the promise of legal cannabis, right? The tax revenue. Love that tax revenue from drugs, is going into drug prevention programs. That is some delicious bureaucratic irony right there. Or maybe I just have the munchies.

[00:44:50] Michael Regilio: Right? And then there's the unseen revenue as well. All the money we're not spending on enforcement, court dates and incarceration. Look, I know I've come off like a bit of a Nancy in this episode, but I believe the government has limited rights when it comes to adults doing what they want to in the sanctuary of their own homes. Ultimately, I think the war on drugs has been a total failure.

[00:45:12] Jordan Harbinger: Which actually isn't surprising since it started with false pretenses and racist motivations, which I had no idea about any of that. I didn't even realize that from the jump.

[00:45:21] Michael Regilio: Right. I think adults should be free to do drugs and free to not do drugs. Education. That's the key.

[00:45:27] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you very much, Michael.

[00:45:28] Michael Regilio: Thank you, Jordan. This has been a real joint effort.

[00:45:32] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Okay. I'm gonna let you get away with that last pun because it was pretty good. I would say you smoked it.

[00:45:39] Michael Regilio: Thanks, Jordan.

[00:45:39] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday can go to Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

[00:45:55] I'm @jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Michael @michaelrogelio on Instagram, michaelrogeliocomedy.com. Tour dates up now as well. We'll link to that in the show notes because as always, nobody can spell Rogelio.

[00:46:10] This show is created an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And we get a lot of stuff wrong, especially on these Skeptical Sundays because these topics are deep and they are wide. So if we really made a big error, email us. We're usually pretty receptive to that, depending on how sour your email actually is. You know how to reach me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use a good dose of the skepticism that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[00:46:57] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show on how to hardwire happiness.

[00:47:02] Rick Hanson: I focus on growing resources in the mind. That's what resilience fundamentally is. To maintain an equilibrium, to be regulated internally, in the pursuit of important goals while being challenged. We remembered negative interactions with other people more than positive ones. We remembered negative gossip about celebrities more than good news. We are much more rapidly trained into helplessness from a few experiences of futility and defeat. Negative emotional experiences have a toxic effect on the brain. They accumulate over time. But do they invade your mind? Do they invade the inner temple of the core of you? And if they do invade you, do they occupy you? Do they remain? Don't feed the beast. Quit ruminating about it. Quit obsessing about it. Quit looping on those laps around the track and help dig in that track a little deeper every single time. You can't do anything about the past, even the present is what it is. But moving into the future, you can always grow the good inside yourself. You can always become a little stronger, a little smarter, a little more skillful, a little happier, a little more loving each hour and each day. And that is within our power. No one can stop us from doing that. No one can stop us from growing from our experiences, and no one can do it for us. For me, it's one of the most honorable self-reliant, even heroic things a person can do. What you can count on is what's inside you.

[00:48:34] To learn how you can build more resilience, check out episode 192 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Rick Hanson.

[00:48:40] Adam Corolla: Hey buddy.

[00:48:44] Dr. Drew Pinsky: Hey buddy.

[00:48:45] Adam Corolla: What's going on, man?

[00:48:46] Dr. Drew Pinsky: Hi guy.

[00:48:47] Adam Corolla: Yeah, yeah, the team Loveline, man. You guys remember us from back in the day? Well, we're doing a pod and we're doing it every day.

[00:48:55] Dr. Drew Pinsky: And we've been doing it for a while. And if you, if I hear one more time, people say, "God, I loved you and Adam together on Loveline." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, we're doing a podcast, will you please just join us at The Adam and Dr. Drew Show please," at adamdrdrewshow.com. What's a great show? Come on now. Only on PodcastOne. That's us, Adam and Dr. Drew Show. Just like the old days doctor's orders. Oh, oh man, you're funny.

[00:49:17] Adam Corolla: Yep. All right, let's go save some babies.

[00:49:19] Dr. Drew Pinsky: Let's do it.