954: Dr. Ramani | Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People

954: Dr. Ramani | Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Nissan. Nissan SUVs. Have the capabilities to take your adventure to the next level. Learn more@nissanusa.com.

[00:00:09] Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:12] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You have to think of the insecurity and the shame inside a narcissist as like a volcano that's always bubbling in them. And on top of that, volcano is like a big heavy metal manhole cover. And that manhole cover is all their defenses, their grandiosity and arrogance and all the rest of it. But every so often that manhole cover gets kicked off a little. Maybe they don't get the promotion. Maybe somebody makes fun of them, maybe they don't get enough likes, whatever it isn't getting nudged, then some of that lava and that explosive gook comes out and that comes out in the form of rage.

[00:00:42] And they're either gonna rage at someone overtly aggressive or verbally angry, or they're gonna be passive aggressive, or they're gonna withdraw, or they're gonna withhold. But either way, they're gonna have a strong emotional reaction to some of that schmutzy shame coming out of them, and they wanna get that manhole cover in place.

[00:00:59] And how do you get it in place? By being the dominant one, and you do that through your anger.

[00:01:07] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, Russian spy, cold case, homicide investigator, real life pirate or tech luminary.

[00:01:36] And if you're new to the show or you wanna tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults and more. It'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

[00:01:51] Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today. Another banger, even if I do say so myself on narcissism, speak of the Devil with Dr. Romney Dula. You've heard her on the show before and we just got tons

[00:02:06] of

[00:02:06] Jordan Harbinger: feedback about that episode. I love her. I think she's amazing.

[00:02:09] She's a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles and is literally a professor when it comes to narcissism. And most impressively, she's also a podcaster and you know how talented those folks are. Today we'll explore what narcissism is and is not the relationship between social media and narcissism.

[00:02:24] Traits of narcissists, and most importantly, what to do if we find ourselves in a relationship either intimate, familial, or professional with a narcissist. Lots to learn here if we are somehow involved with a narcissist or just curious about how these train wrecks around us, operate and make others miserable.

[00:02:41] Here we go with Dr. Ramini Dula.

[00:02:47] Okay, so I read the book and I'm not sure what it is, but man, as a society, we are just obsessed with narcissists, myself included, and I think maybe it's because we've all dealt with one in business or a romantic relationship, or a marriage or a friendship, and in the examples of the people in your book, all of the above, somehow at the same time, for some of those poor folks, but narcissists are unavoidable.

[00:03:08] They certainly seem to be everywhere.

[00:03:10] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I think that they are unavoidable simply by dint of the fact that they're often very good at what they do. So if you're somebody who wants to meet a partner who it feels like to you, at least on paper, they have it all together. Or you're in industries where you're networking with lots of people, right?

[00:03:27] There's a certain inevitability, unless you really know what you're looking for. And then it becomes this interesting tension between people saying, okay, this person may not be ultra ambitious, or they may not have a big fancy job, but my goodness, they're the kindest human being I've ever met. Sadly, people still don't date that way.

[00:03:45] They don't. Some people end up in those relationships and blessed are they, because they really have healthy relationships. But I think the way that we are pointed towards people and told, these are the people you should know you should talk to that are cool, that have hip cred, whatever, that whole thing, I think actually sometimes stacks the deck.

[00:04:03] Yeah. Towards that. And then you throw in the family piece, and that's a roll of the dice. A lot of people have it. Not everyone does. But when it comes to adult life, unless you're super discerning, I think it's certainly inevitable. That's a

[00:04:14] Jordan Harbinger: great point. Because you're right, we're wired for status. So if I'm out there dating and I'm a science teacher, I'm not gonna flex on Instagram, and then I'm dating, I'm like, oh, dating is hard.

[00:04:25] But if I'm an influencer who's constantly bragging about, I don't know, spending the night in a hut in Bali and doing videos, it might be really easy for me to date. But then if my entire life is showing off to other people, I'm not saying all those people are narcissists, but I'm gonna go ahead and guess the Venn diagram of I.

[00:04:41] Influencer who shows off their lifestyle and narcissist. I'm guessing that there's a decent Venn diagram there. Absolutely. Maybe not a complete circle, but something like that. Oh,

[00:04:49] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: absolutely. And I love what you just said. It says, it was so beautifully put, you said, wired for status. And we are, and it's not a modern, superficial thing.

[00:04:57] I think we've always been wired for this sense of looking towards people who are the leaders, people who are doing the thing, and so they become whoever Back in the day, they might have been the mayor of the town or the person who ran the church or something like that. But we are wired for that. And we're also wired to view those people as desirable.

[00:05:14] And so I think that is why, because we almost feel fortunate when we're in the presence of these sort of status level people and probabilistically people of higher status are going to be narcissistic because status matters. Usually status has to matter for a person to pursue it. If every so often you'll find the person who was born into an incredibly wealthy family, I.

[00:05:35] And they're just a decent human being and their status comes from their proximity to that family, but they themselves are nice. That's not a common occurrence. You look

[00:05:43] Jordan Harbinger: at Jeff Bezos's, ex-wife, who donates all this money and seems like a very sort of normal, lovely person. She wasn't rich her entire life and doesn't seem to care for the whole thing.

[00:05:53] And then she married a science teacher actually. To pull it full circle

[00:05:57] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: as opposed to full circle. But that's what it is, though. If someone's a lifestyle influencer, if someone's asking me to take a bet, like I'm buying a raffle ticket, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna buy this as that. This is probably someone who's got narcissistic qualities because the drive to wanna do that when the drive is to be admired, right?

[00:06:12] And it's how the occupation is defined, you're going to be much better at that job if you're narcissistic.

[00:06:18] Jordan Harbinger: That's a fact. When I was reading this book, I could not help but think about a lot of the people I know. I'm thinking, man, you work so much. Why don't you get married and have kids? Why do you need another YouTube channel and another podcast and another whatever?

[00:06:32] And then you start to put the pieces together and you're like, oh, your whole life is, who am I taking a selfie with today? And it's just, oh no, and you feel bad for them. Also, I know some of these people's current or ex partners, and I'm like, oh, you have real deep seated insecurity, which is one of the sort of pillars of narcissism or narcissists in the book.

[00:06:52] The other thing I liked about this book, it's a new angle because a lot of books about narcissists are about the actual person who is the narcissist, whereas this book is about the victims or the people that have to deal with them all the time. That seems like a new angle, at least from the stuff that I've read so far on narcissism.

[00:07:08] Narcissistic

[00:07:09] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: people are fascinating in the sense that I think the reason that people don't watch documentaries and Netflix shows about nice people, they watch him about serial killer Serial. I was gonna say serial killer. Yeah. So that's what we are drawn to. We wanna understand the mind of somebody who is able to hurt us.

[00:07:27] We wanna understand the why behind that. 'cause that's not a normative behavior. And so I think the why of narcissism piece. It is the same thing in the academic literature, Jordan. And when you look at the academic literature, I could count on one hand the number of published papers there are on people who have been harmed by narcissistic people.

[00:07:42] But I can tell you there's hundreds if not thousands, about the narcissistic people themselves. And so that bias is, I think partly our, sort of our fascination with sort of people who don't do nice things and trying to understand them. Maybe we think we could outwit them, maybe we think we can protect ourselves.

[00:07:58] But I think it's really created a real whole. But I think we had to have that conversation first. We had to even identify it, put it out there as a phenomenon, say this is a thing. And as more and more people absorb, this is a thing that's happening in my life. Then we could really open up full throttle this conversation on healing.

[00:08:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You say it really well in the book until the lion can Talk. The story of the hunt will always be in the voice of the hunter. 'cause we're talking about narcissists, we're fascinated by them. They're charming to get away with everything, but nobody's really talking about the wife of the narcissist whose life has been ruined, who didn't go get cancer treatment because he kept minimizing her symptoms and now she's at stage four or whatever.

[00:08:34] And those are the people that matter. Narcissist is not a good person in many of these scenarios.

[00:08:39] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: They're not. But here's what's where it gets really tricky. We have to be realist, is that, sadly, history is made by narcissistic people. Innovations are made by narcissistic people. Some of the biggest creative endeavors were undertaken by narcissistic people.

[00:08:52] In some ways, that grandiose boldness is what makes a an idea turn into something that revolutionizes the world. But then sadly what we do is we deify them, turn them into our gods. If we could just say, thanks for the tech and please don't come into my house kind of thing, we would be in much better shape.

[00:09:09] I think that we've always glorified this. We don't glorify the person who was standing alongside or was the support for the person who made these things happen. And I am not convinced we ever will. I'm pinning my hopes in realistic places, but I want the people who've gone through these things to feel seen and heard, and recognize that what happened to them is real.

[00:09:29] Because up till now, I have to tell you, the mental health profession is all but abandoned these

[00:09:33] Jordan Harbinger: people. Yeah, it it does seem that way. You're right. Going back to we're wired for status. We're never gonna be like. I wonder who the person behind Edison was. It's, well, no, we want to talk about him, but also for every Thomas Edison, and I'm not sure if he was a narcissist, who knows.

[00:09:49] I'm sure we could find out if we read all of his journals or something, but for every guy like that, who's a super innovator and maybe also a narcissist, there's a million nobodies who are also narcissists that do something that work with all of us day to day. And we're thinking, why do you think you're so special?

[00:10:06] You're doing the same thing as me, and we both hate our jobs. What are you talking about? You're not special. But if they're listening right now, they don't think we're talking about them anyway, so I guess I should save my

[00:10:17] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: breath. Nope. They don't think we're talking about them. And I think what's really tricky about narcissism is that most narcissistic people, at least at the superficial, the level we interact with them at, they think that they're good people.

[00:10:28] They think of themselves. I'm super empathic. I'm a great person. I help so many people. I'm so nice. I'm so generous. That's their self-concept. It has to be. There's a whole idea as they're putting out what they believe is a sort of a perfect idealized self and at a very deep unprocessed churning, internal volcanic level, they know that's not true.

[00:10:47] That's where that insecurity comes from. That's where those bits of rage we see is when those two things get activated, that inner insecurity gets activated, but they're not in touch with it. It's not like someone can say, Ooh, you're hitting a real tender place for me. I need a second. That's what a healthy person does.

[00:11:01] That is not what happens with someone narcissistic and, and interestingly, Edison, actually, there are historical records suggesting that he wasn't a very nice guy.

[00:11:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, as a practitioner, it's probably really hard to go that person has this disorder based on things I've read about them. Don't you have to have them talk to you?

[00:11:17] You do. Yeah.

[00:11:18] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You absolutely do. And I think this is one of the issues is that even for me, I have to say like the reason a narcissistic person would get into therapy might be, for example, they're feeling some anxiety about a job. They're feeling sad because of a relationship broke up. They're feeling upset 'cause there's a failure to launch, something's getting them in the door.

[00:11:33] Or they feel as though sometimes it's for optics, but at the end of the day they're coming in sometimes for something else, addiction. So as a therapist, we tend to focus on the most acute issue, the depression, the anxiety, the addiction. That makes sense. That's the issue that's causing the most trouble for them.

[00:11:48] It might even be a safety issue. So we address that and then we address that. And then we address that. We're like, how am I not making any progress? Most of us will, even thinking maybe I'm not a very good therapist, but if narcissism is under those other issues, you're really gonna feel like you're making very little progress.

[00:12:05] You might even lift some of the depression stuff, but you're not gonna get to that core sense of why is everyone out to get

[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: me? That goes along with what you said in the book, trying to fix a relationship like this. You say relationship with a narcissistic partner, trying to fix a relationship like this without getting at the root cause.

[00:12:20] Narcissistic behavior is like trying to fix an engine problem by putting air in the tires. So if you're treating the addiction, but the person is still not being treated for narcissism or narcissistic behavior, yeah, you're putting air on the tires even though you have sugar ground in the gas tank or whatever.

[00:12:36] It's also tricky with therapy because it seems like a lot of times people who are in relationships with narcissists, they're getting blamed for the problems in the relationship by the narcissist, but then they go to therapy and it's, are you sure you're trying hard enough? They're with their part. It seems like he's willing to, and I've been with him for 20 years.

[00:12:52] He always says this, we come here and then everyone says, but you're in therapy and you're still having this problem. Maybe it's you. 'cause it's like part of the game.

[00:13:01] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I say when I'm teaching therapists, it's not always what we call antagonism informed. It doesn't account for the asymmetry that's brought into a relationship by antagonism, by narcissism.

[00:13:10] Antagonism is an umbrella word. Narcissism lives underneath it. And so as a result, especially people who work in couples work, relationship work, family work, it's all observed in the sense of everyone is contributing. And I have a real problem thinking that somebody who's stuck in a relationship they can't figure out how to get out of or how to get out of safely is contributing to a problem they didn't know.

[00:13:30] And a lot of folks will say, my goodness, now that I have the roadmap, like I'm outta here. This is ridiculous. I wish I had known this. I wish they'd taught me in school. I wish someone had sat and taught me this because I would've known to look for these things. Because some of these patterns, when they happened early in the relationship, they're like, they were uncomfortable.

[00:13:46] But I was taught to forgive, give second chances, make allowances for people. Those strategies were great and healthy relationships, they're a disaster when you do them with someone who's narcissistic.

[00:13:57] Jordan Harbinger: So almost like any sensible way of living in a relationship with somebody else is maladaptive. If you're in a relationship with a narcissistic person, I wonder if, is it worse in certain cultures?

[00:14:07] 'cause like I'm gonna go ahead and say that if I am a jerk to my wife, she's gonna be like, what the hell is your problem? And show me, what's the euphemism here? She's gonna show me what's what. Right? I'm not gonna get away with it. But there are other cultures where you don't talk back to your husband that your parents picked out for you or whatever.

[00:14:28] That does not happen. And Oh, you wanna leave? Nope, that's not happening. I did an episode on honor killing, and I'm thinking of these really traditional cultures.

[00:14:36] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So things like honor, killing, constructs, like honor, authoritarianism, patriarchy. Those are going to be cultures, honestly, where narcissism flourishes and the built-in asymmetry of relationships in certain cultures.

[00:14:50] The more asymmetry that's society lends to the relationship, the more likely that the narcissistic abuse will be worse. I mean, I don't think it's gonna make someone who's not narcissistic, but someone who is. There's no path forward for a person in that kind of situation. And those kinds of cultural tendrils, even if you person migrates away from that culture, those still might be assumptions that are held about relationships.

[00:15:12] So people will say. If I speak out about my relationship, I can end up blowing up my relationship with my family of origin or with my community. So none of these are easy decisions and because this narcissism conversation is evolving that a lot of people say, well, is that even a thing? And what are you talking about?

[00:15:28] And do they have a disorder and all this other stuff. It can confuses it and throw in there too. Narcissism is not considered a nice thing to be. Some people walk around and say, yeah, of course I got the goods and that's why I'm like this, or whatever. But by and large, it's not a word people like to use or believe.

[00:15:43] It's a nice sort of a term. So when a person thinks that way about a family member, about a partner, they almost feel like they're being disloyal. Maybe I'm the problem if I'm willing to see someone I'm supposed to love in this way.

[00:15:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's a lot stacked against you if you're trying to get out of a relationship with somebody like this.

[00:15:59] It can be exacerbated by a conservative culture that you may have grown up in or your family. And you paint a really tough picture in the book where if you wanna leave, okay, how do you do it? But then what happens when you have kids with this person? You have to co-parent. Or what happens when it's your sister?

[00:16:14] Oh, you're ruining the family. You don't wanna come to Christmas dinner because Shelly makes me feel like absolute crap every time. And nobody checks her behavior because we've been dancing around it for her entire life and she gets to dictate Christmas and now you gotta bring my kids and husband in and we're all gonna get treated like crap.

[00:16:33] And then you're gonna blame me for it. No, thank you. So it's gotta be really hard to get away from somebody like this 'cause you're related to them.

[00:16:41] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Absolutely, and that's the challenge is exactly that, is that a person might have the moment of, this is definitely my sister. Now you have this knowledge, but everyone else in your family may not have it.

[00:16:52] And so even though your eyes have been open to it, it is kept in place because of the other people in the system who don't wanna call it out, but also have implicitly. Been enabling it all these years. Everyone will say, yeah, yeah, we have to be a little careful around Shelly. But come on, isn't that just all families?

[00:17:10] No, no, it's not. And if it is all families, then it's not okay in all families. I think that we can say that. I think the ultimate sort of, if we were to boil it down to one simple thing, this behavior's not okay. It's that simple. And I think that the challenge though is our need for social belongingness, our need for social connection is so strong that we'll make a million modifications so we can maintain those connections.

[00:17:35] So many people will say, all right, we'll just suck it up every year at Christmas because we value potentially the sense of belonging to this larger system.

[00:17:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Gosh. Do narcissists know this stuff consciously or are they just really good at manipulating the system to work in their favor? Because I have to believe that Shelly, who's not a real person, knows that she's ruining Christmas.

[00:17:55] I. Do they really think they're the victim? Or I guess maybe they do. There's

[00:17:59] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: knowing and there's knowing Jordan, right? So there's the unprocessed, unconscious stuff that was not even accessible to us in conscious awareness. And then there's the stuff that we believe, right? And the stuff we believe drives how we go through the world.

[00:18:13] And sure, Shelly, at some unconscious level may know that, well, this is the only way I can get attention. If I don't get attention, everyone's gonna abandon me. Shelly is not in touch with that. And so the fact of the matter is, Shelly actually believes everyone else is the problem. Everyone else is out to get her.

[00:18:28] Everyone else wants to blame her for Christmas being bad. Why is everyone always been so mean to her? And Shelly believes that. And the problem with all the unconscious stuff in narcissism, that's my problem as a therapist, if I'm gonna get in there and open the hood. As monkeying around in the engine of someone's mind.

[00:18:45] Sure, we're gonna get to that unconscious stuff we hope at some point. But for all the human beings that have to deal with the narcissistic person, we can't keep making excuses around their unconscious world. We've gotta deal with them. When we have to deal with the Shelly, who actually genuinely thinks of herself as the victim, that makes

[00:19:00] Jordan Harbinger: me feel a little bit bad for these people.

[00:19:03] 'cause I can't imagine living that way. Don't get me wrong, I feel much more for the victim who has to deal with this person, especially if they're married to them or related to them. But gosh, can you imagine living that way? Everyone's out to get me. Nothing works out in my favor. Only way to get detention's to blow everything up.

[00:19:20] If I don't get attention, everyone's gonna leave me. That's awful. They're in a prison of their own mind

[00:19:26] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: in a way. But they're also spoiled children because one thing you gotta remember about the Shelly's, it's quite possible that someone like a Shelly in this story, a work life where she actually shows up as a decent person, A person like Shelly.

[00:19:41] Might actually keep it together. If on one given year a higher status guest shows up to Christmas, that regularly doesn't come. So we think that the capacity of narcissistic people, not only to keep it together, but be quite charming, charismatic, put together in front of certain audiences, but behind closed doors when they're with a partner or family and go off on them.

[00:20:03] Those sort of dual repertoires, obviously they're aware of it. They've been screaming at work too. So there is awareness. Jordan, I don't disagree with you. I don't envy them either, and I wouldn't wanna be them either. But guess what? Everyone else is doing the vulnerable work of therapy to deal with them.

[00:20:19] They can sign up for it too.

[00:20:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're right. If they can control their behavior, then they can control their freaking behavior. If you cannot ruin Christmas because that rich uncle who might put you in his will has showed up, then you cannot ruin Christmas when your sister's there with her kids and doesn't have anything that she's gonna.

[00:20:36] Leave you with. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. If you can control your behavior, then you know, okay, you have some agency here. Why the hell aren't you using it to be a decent person instead of a horrible bully? Yeah. One thing that I thought was particularly striking, one of your mini feces in the book, which is the narcissistic behavior was there before you entered the picture or the relationship, and it's gonna be there after you're gone.

[00:20:55] And the patterns, they don't change. So those around them, which is like you, if you're listening to this and you're not the narcissist, you're not responsible for them or for the changes, which by the way probably won't happen anyway, which I thought that was really important for people to remember.

[00:21:10] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Personality's stable. It grows and it evolves until we're probably in our mid to late twenties and then it's pretty stable. You've known people for a long time, Jordan. You think of people you've known for 30 years. They've consistently been who they are. It might be a little few tweaks here and there, but I've had one friend since 13.

[00:21:25] She was agreeable at 13 and she's agreeable at 58 and nothing has changed. I think that you've gotta remember, we all have personalities and they're all relatively stable. So yes, it's been there all along. But that key piece, I think that when we keep having this conversation, they can't change. They can't change, their behavior can't change.

[00:21:43] You may even wanna put a finer point on it here, is that you are not going to be the reason it changes. So I think a lot of people almost take it as a challenge. Like, come on, I'm not quitting someone I love. I'm not quitting someone I care about. I said, this isn't about quitting. This is about doing something impossible.

[00:22:00] I'm also not about to slingshot to Mars right now. I'd love to. I'm curious, but I'm not gonna do it 'cause it's not possible. And so yeah, it's cold. It's probably, and probably dusty, but I think that people have to understand that even if you say, well come on, everyone can change. Only if they take responsibility for it and they consistently commit to it every day of their lives.

[00:22:21] That's what's probably not gonna happen. So if you're gonna turn this into some sort of parlor trick of, oh, come on now, show me that this can never happen. It's not about the never of it all. It's that you are not gonna be the reason it changes. And Jordan, I'm sure there's people listening, you may have had this experience.

[00:22:36] I certainly have had this experience where there were narcissistic people in my life that I don't interact with, and I still hear about them here and there. Nothing's changed and I've had nothing to do with them for over a decade and nothing has changed.

[00:22:49] Jordan Harbinger: There's people in my life where I suspect that they have something like this and other friends, mutual friends will go.

[00:22:54] Alright, so how long until so and so blows up his marriage? And I'm like, Ugh, who knows? And then sure enough, five years later it's, oh, they got divorced. Well, I can't say I'm too surprised. Oh, they're back together. They're divorced again. It's okay. He cheated those business partners too. Some things never change, and if you just have to wait for the other shoe to drop with these people at the time.

[00:23:15] Absolutely,

[00:23:15] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: and I think no empathic, decent human beings don't wanna walk around the world, assuming the worst of everyone. It's not a nice way to go through life, especially if we know someone and certainly if we care about them. But the key to understanding narcissism is listen. We're not gonna get rid of all the narcissists in our lives, and most of us don't even wish Ill will on them.

[00:23:34] We just want 'em to leave us the hell alone. And so then when you look at your narcissistic friend who's getting married, you're like, oh my gosh, they're gonna blow this up in five years. And they blow it up in five years. And you know, it's coming. Like we, we also, there's a sort of a radical acceptance of, so we've seen the end of this movie.

[00:23:50] We know how this one goes. And so that's radical acceptance is we know this, and it doesn't necessarily mean we end all these relationships. Friendships are interesting, right? They can hurt us, but they often don't have the impact as like an intimate partner would, or a parent or a family member. We see regularly, not in the same way.

[00:24:07] How do we

[00:24:07] Jordan Harbinger: separate narcissists from people who are merely self-absorbed or shallow or arrogant? Where's the sort of line on a behavior that turns somebody into something diagnosable or treatable?

[00:24:20] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So self-absorption and arrogance while they're part of the narcissistic picture are by themselves, not narcissism.

[00:24:26] And I use this analogy all the time. If someone showed up at my front door with an egg, I'd be like, thanks for the egg. I would not say, thanks for the cake. They'd need to mix that with flour, sugar, baking soda, and all the other goodies, and stick it in the oven. And then I'd say, thanks for the cake, but the egg is part of the cake.

[00:24:40] And so when we get into sort of the strands of narcissism, if you will, the self-absorption, the arrogance, even the entitlement to a degree, if those things are freestanding and pretty rare to find an entitled person who's empathic, but it can happen sometimes. You'll see it in very privileged wealthy feet.

[00:24:58] Don't touch the ground kind of people like they're just so used to things running exactly on their schedule that there can be an entitlement. But you talk to them a bit more and you're actually, there's a decent human being under there. It's been, again, they've been coddled to such a ridiculous degree.

[00:25:12] But by and large, these things you gotta remember is where their self-absorption and arrogance. There's also likely to be low empathy, entitlement, a need for admiration. These things tend to hang out together. But if for some reason you've pulled one strand, and let's not even use self-absorption, 'cause that's generally is associated with narcissism, but let's just call it selfishness.

[00:25:31] A person who really says. You know what? My time is my own. I love my work. Whatever. I'm a writer. I have to write 12 hours a day. I need my environment to be a certain way, and as a result, I've made some decisions. I'm not gonna get into an intimate relationship because I'm pro, you know, gonna drive someone outta their mind with all my demands.

[00:25:48] And that's not a choice I'm gonna make. I like my life the way it is. They've made this known, they're not drawing someone into the swamp, right? I like to write. I like to do my thing. I like to travel on my own. I like to live my life in my own way. It is selfishness. If a person says, I'm only living a life that works for me.

[00:26:03] But I don't think it's narcissism, if it's not AC company with all that other stuff, a person's like, this is how I like things, and I love having dinner with friends. Some people will have members of their family. I know someone who has a sibling like this and they've said they are the best aunt you would ever know in your life.

[00:26:18] They're kind, they're generous. They take my kid on vacations, but when they're doing their thing, they're doing their thing, and that's that. And so there's a clarity and they've communicated that, and they're not cruel to anyone. So that would be the strand of selfishness got pulled out without all the other sort of bells and whistles that make it narcissism.

[00:26:36] So we have to be careful if we meet someone, let's say you meet someone and they're very authoritative about what they know in a conversation, and they're very da, da, da, da, and they almost seem imperious. It's easy to say after that meeting, that person's narcissistic. But then you run into them in a bathroom and they're super warm and nice, and you're like, what the hell?

[00:26:55] And then you talk to 'em a little further at the group dinner and you're like, this is actually a really kind person. You recognize the way they show up in that particular setting. It's very specific. They're very warm. That cuts across other situations that can happen. It's not the norm though, Jordan.

[00:27:11] These things hang together.

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[00:29:30] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I manage to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the group of people that I know, like, and trust, and I am teaching you how to build your network for free over@sixminutenetworking.com.

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[00:30:02] So, hey, come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course@sixminutenetworking.com. Now back to Dr. Romney. I feel like you just described me, which is why I'm laughing because my wife will go, you talked a lot during that phase, and then I'll see the person and their wife later, and I remember one guy's wife was like, I'm surprised because I didn't think I was gonna like you after the first time we met.

[00:30:26] Oh, interesting. I she's like, no offense though, because you're like one of the, and I'm like, I am not offended. I get that all the time and it's on me because. I don't know, whatever that was at the time, let other people talk or whatever it was. This is years ago, but I just remember that interaction and that's why I'm chuckling because I definitely have done that exact thing and had that exact experience.

[00:30:46] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And so the episodes though, Jordan, I think it's like personality isn't about episodes, it's about a through line, right? So if the imperious person remained imperious in that interaction, there are people who will come across in front of an audience as the warmest, loveliest, hest people in the world.

[00:31:04] But then you have a conversation on the side and they're monstrous. I had this happen once with someone who's considered one of the most beloved people, and I had a conversation. It was one of the most offensive experiences I had ever had. Then I asked, have made a few sort of discreet inquiries, and they're like, oh no, he's an absolutely terrible human being.

[00:31:21] And so this is somebody who's able to do that communal, narcissistic, performative. I'm the savior of the world, but is actually a terrible person. It takes us to an interesting corner of narcissism. I just use the term communal narcissism. Communal narcissistic people are people who get their supply, their validation and their admiration by being perceived as being these do-gooders, save the world, aren't I wonderful?

[00:31:43] That's their source of it. And they actually get quite churlish and angry if they're not getting validated and being viewed as the savior of the world for doing all of that. But like I said, their audiences identify with them as saviors, and then I've even watched 'em dealing with audiences. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is terrible.

[00:32:00] They're so contemptuous. That is not an uncommon maneuver in those spaces. It's lovely when you meet the person who tracks, they're lovely in their space, and then you meet them in the side and they're lovely people. When that happens, you're like, bless the world that these kinds of people actually get ahead.

[00:32:16] I

[00:32:16] Jordan Harbinger: hear that. There's that phrase, never meet your heroes, and I'll never say I'm a lovely person, but the biggest compliment I get is when people go, you're like the same person you are on the podcast. Yeah. In real life. I'm like, thank you. Yes. Faking things is hard. I'm a terrible actor, but at least they're not going, wow.

[00:32:30] I thought you would be like nicer or something. Yeah, that would hurt my feelings. You mentioned narcissistic supply. Let's talk about what this is. First of all, I'd never heard of this, but man, does it add clarity to how and why these people are the way they are? It's almost like their oxygen. They need this or they shrivel up and dive.

[00:32:48] At least that's how they behave.

[00:32:50] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: It's exactly what it is. It is oxygen narcissistic supply. I always have the visual of this massive warehouse and trucks all going into it full and coming out empty. And that's what everyone around the narcissistic person feels like a truck full of stuff that always leaves that warehouse of the narcissistic person empty.

[00:33:06] And so it's admiration, it's praise, it's validation, it's status, it's fame, it's money. It's all those things are considered supply. It's not just someone telling 'em they're great. Supply can also be being famous because now everyone, again thinks that you're the hero and you're the healer or whatever it is.

[00:33:26] So it can be any of those things. And so the narcissistic person will work steadfastly to ensure that the supply stream is steady. A person who's a lot of money can buy people around them, right? If you ever watch a rich person's household, there's always people going in and out. There's a. Hair person and a fixer person, and a cleaning person and a yoga person, and a get your energy clean person.

[00:33:47] Like they're always surrounded by people, but the people are all on the payroll and so there's this sense of community around them, but I'm like, oh wow, all these people are being paid to be here. And so for that person, for a wealthy narcissistic person, getting supplies is actually very easy. But for other, like a less resourced, narcissistic person, which is most of them.

[00:34:06] It's a lot trickier. Social media changed the game. Jordan. Social media changed the game. Oh yeah. I'll always remember that day. Think I might even said this in our last episode. Back in 2000, I think it was eight or so, oh seven, eight. Somebody said, Hey Rom, you need to look at this thing called Facebook.

[00:34:20] You'll find it curious. And I remember looking at it and I was already doing this work studying narcissism, and my stomach dropped. I thought, oh my gosh, these fools were gonna be able to get validation without leaving the house. Back in the day, they actually did need to leave the house like they'd have to go to work or go into the world or their community in some way.

[00:34:38] They'd have to go out and get it. There was no way to share your life with everybody. These would certainly be the people in their friendship group who would yammer on about, let me tell you about my vacation to Hawaii. Back in the day we'd call them, we'd have to watch your slides from the vacation, and so they would bore a small group of people, but then one day the world changed in a period of a year or two.

[00:34:59] And so what it did was social media gave, especially the grandiose, narcissistic people, an essence, a playground to get validation 24 7. And I think they've always been grandiose, narcissistic folk, but they were really able to harness this platform to get the thing that they needed psychologically at a mass scale.

[00:35:16] Jordan Harbinger: Does getting more supply make you worse in terms of your behavior? Because otherwise. Social media would be good, right? Because it's like, Hey, now you can post your stupid vacation photos of Italy to Facebook and we can ignore them there. We don't have to come over for what you're pretending is your wife's birthday party, but is really a chance for you to show off your new car and your slides.

[00:35:35] Or is it like, oh, now that you can get likes, you're just even more insufferable because the supply comes more easily.

[00:35:43] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: One of the problems becomes is that it should, because when a narcissistic person has quote unquote enough supply, they're better regulated. So on a day, for example, a narcissistic person, let's say they get a promotion or they get a big bonus, a.

[00:35:56] They're the fun dad that day. Great partner. They're good friend. They'll call, Hey, how you doing? And they'll be like that person, right? Because it was their great day. But every day you can't get a promotion every day. You can't get a big raise. So what social media did was initially, I think it was really exciting, but then it's never enough, right?

[00:36:16] That picture only got 200 likes. I wanted to get 2000 likes. I only have a hundred thousand followers. I want a million followers. So it created this new carrot to chase, and it also did something that really messed with the world in an interesting way. It allowed the narcissistic people to peer behind the curtain, into other people's lives and recognize that some people have lives that might be coolers than theirs, and that made them go off.

[00:36:39] This is what made narcissism go bonkers. And the vulnerable narcissist, the subtype of narcissism where. These are people who often don't overtly at all look grandiose and preening and arrogant, but rather, these are folks who look victimized, suen, resentful, angry. Why didn't I get my turn? Why does he have more?

[00:36:58] I never got my chance. And they're very aggrieved. There's a failure to launch for these vulnerable folks. Seeing what other people have, if you will, has made them completely lose their minds. And I think all the internet trolls, that tends to be vulnerable narcissism. So all this cruelty we see on social media, a lot of that is gobbled up by the variance induced by vulnerable narcissism.

[00:37:21] Jordan Harbinger: That's insightful. Whenever I see these really cruel trolls, I always wonder, what do you like in real life? What is your deal? It's Julia Roberts just posted something and it was quite interesting. It, there's a photo of her with her niece and her niece had just slept over and they were playing cards or something, and she took a photo and it's, it's cute, it's Julia Roberts and her cute niece holding cards and smiling, whatever.

[00:37:43] And she said, but the comments on the photo were so horrible. She's not aging well. And she gave some examples and I was like, who's sitting here? trashing Julia Roberts sitting with her niece. It's a cute photo. Move on with your life. And she said she's 51, and she just couldn't believe it. 'cause it hurts.

[00:38:01] And she didn't say it this way, but she's an internationally famous superstar. And she's like, it still hurt my feelings. And she goes, but what if I was 15 years old? That was her point. Like it's just trashing people's self-esteem. But to your point, who's sitting there being like, I'm gonna say the meanest thing I can to this person, the

[00:38:18] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: vulnerable narcissist.

[00:38:19] And it's dangerous Jordan. It's not just like they're just saying mean things to people. It is sometimes creating an anger of volcanic anger and folks who feel like, how come it's not me? How come I'm not getting my turn? I'm so mad. I'm gonna not only put other people down, I'm sometimes gonna really lash out at them in dangerous ways.

[00:38:34] So I, in fact, there's a narcissism expert, Dr. Keith Campbell's, a professor at University of Georgia. Who? I absolutely adore him, and he's such a brilliant man, but him and I are in both agreement, grandiose narcissism. They've always been around the people who brag and wanna show you their vacation photos and think they're so great and they're annoying and they cheat on their wives.

[00:38:51] Sure, whatever. And they've always been there. But this particular brand of narcissism has also always been there too. But they've gotten this new fuel. It's like they're gonna bring other people down. Typically, the vulnerable narcissist could only bring down the people who are in proximity to them. Now they can do it everywhere.

[00:39:07] And the harm of it, like you said, 51-year-old woman is still gorgeous, successful. 51-year-old woman was hurt by it. Can you imagine in someone younger or someone more vulnerable even they'd have to be 15. They could be at any age, but vulnerable for some reason. It's very upsetting and this whole idea of it's free speech.

[00:39:24] No, it's not free speech. It's cruel. And so that cruelty though, very much we can explain a lot of the variance there is it's vulnerable narcissism, this victimized saw and how come it's not my turn? I'm entitled to having a better life than this. How come you have a better life than me? Grandiose narcissists don't get that kind of sour about it.

[00:39:43] They're like, I'm gonna figure out how to get your life and then I'm gonna get it and I'm gonna get it better than yours. And they actually probably might because grandiose, narcissistic people have a lot of what we call agency. They go out and they get things done. That's why they're interesting.

[00:39:55] They're interesting to have on a team. 'cause they actually behave like a-holes, but they do get

[00:39:59] Jordan Harbinger: things done. Yeah. So that's why they haven't been bred out of the population because they occasionally have these great successes. They're just so motivated. That's what I was saying before about the influencers.

[00:40:09] Like you meet these people and they don't wanna have kids and they don't wanna have close friends because they're just gonna trade 'em in for cooler friends next year anyways. And they don't say it like that. But I've got a former buddy who he literally told a bunch of our mutual friends. Hey, I can't hang out with you anymore because I really only hang out with like famous superstars now and you're just not there.

[00:40:29] And I was like, how are you saying this? And not thinking I'm a piece of crap. I almost had to admire the chutzpah to even think it, let alone tell the person, Hey, I'm not hanging out with you because you're not famous.

[00:40:40] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Right? And call it delusional grandiosity, right? It's not quite delusional 'cause it was delusional then it'd be psychotic.

[00:40:46] But it isn't almost delusional grandiosity, like they really leave their hype. And a lot of narcissistic people across the all types of narcissism don't really have a filter. So they'll say what they wanna say because they don't have empathy. We have filters in part because, well, first of all, 'cause we have a frontal lobe, but second of all, because we have empathy and so we might say, Ooh, I wanna say that, but I'm not, 'cause I could really hurt this person and so I'm gonna hold back on saying it for that reason.

[00:41:13] They don't have that need to do that. And if also it's posturing, look, I hang out with famous people and you don't. Ultimately, it's always a play for supply.

[00:41:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's kind of one reason why you have that 1% where you go, I feel bad for him. But then another 99% is, but he's such an a-hole,

[00:41:29] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: so Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:29] I don't really feel bad for him. He's sort of like the really unlikeable kid who had a swimming pool and so people would be his friend in the summer.

[00:41:37] Jordan Harbinger: That's a great example. That's so funny. You mentioned consistency in the book when they have adequate narcissistic supply, they're on top of the world, but then they're perpetually bored and they often seek excitement or novelty.

[00:41:48] And I'm guessing this is what leads to some of the overspending that these people do and certainly a lot of the cheating and relationships, which the previous aforementioned example, he can't stop cheating on people that he's with because he'll trade in the nice girlfriend for the one that has more followers on Instagram, literally.

[00:42:04] And it's a choice no sane person would

[00:42:06] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: make, but it's not a sanity. Right. The value system is different. 'cause that's the way the motivation system is different. And I think in understanding when you're in a relationship with someone narcissistic, listen, the healthiest people amongst us. Are very clear on what motivates them to do what they do.

[00:42:22] The more clear we are in our motivations, the more we're in line with our authentic selves. Person might even be able to say like, yeah, the part of the reason I want that is ego and owning that. It's healthy to know that because then when it doesn't work out, you're clear on why it stings, but it's not like a secret.

[00:42:38] The more secret things are, the more they sort of fester and come out in terrible ways. To tell you, a narcissistic person has almost 0% awareness of why they do the things they do. So if this is a mistake, people always make in an argument with a narcissist, why would you have done that? For example, why would you have cheated on me?

[00:42:55] I've been such a good da, da, da, da. And the narcissistic person, actually probably because now shame has been brought up for them, they'll blame the other person. They'll defend themselves. It wasn't that big a deal. Let it go. But they'll never answer that question because they can't,

[00:43:09] Jordan Harbinger: because they're just not connected to that part at all.

[00:43:12] They're completely unaware.

[00:43:13] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: No, there's no self-reflective capacity. The health, the work of being a person is to say, what is this about for me? So going back to what led me to say that is the motivations from healthy can be things like achievement and affiliation, even power, right? You know, we are social species.

[00:43:30] Human beings are social creatures wanting to be with other people, care about other people. It's built into our DNA. We needed it for survival. When we're small, we're not turtles though. We came out of an egg on a beach and go swim off and figure it out. We are human beings that take a long time to develop and need our caregivers.

[00:43:48] Attachment matters to this species, and so when people don't care about it, they've definitely stepped off the norm. And I think that challenge is that you're playing by a different rule book. When you're in this relationship, you may value closeness and love and connection, but they value power and domination and control and validation.

[00:44:07] One of you is playing chess and one of you is playing checkers. They're both great games, but they don't make sense to be played simultaneously and someone's gonna get frustrated real

[00:44:16] Jordan Harbinger: fast. Yeah, you can't play 'em on the same board and expect a good outcome. What's scary is with the grandiosity especially, you don't know which version to expect.

[00:44:25] If your partner is narcissistic and you're home and you're watching Netflix and making dinner or something, you don't know who's coming home. Is it the person who had a great day at work because their boss was like, great presentation there, Simpson. Or is it the person who, their colleague that they don't like?

[00:44:41] 'cause they're constantly comparing themselves to them. That person got a compliment by the boss, so their entire life is now ruined for the next 48 hours. Who's walking in the door? That's the part that would give me just anxiety all day.

[00:44:53] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: That's why people in these relationships are always anxious because there is no consistency.

[00:44:58] There is no communication about it because again, admitting I didn't get the promotion 'cause I wasn't as good as the other guy. That brings up too much shame. Whereas someone else will say, I didn't get the promotion. I feel absolutely terrible and I need a minute. But I also have to know that he had better sales totals than me.

[00:45:14] There's a healthy human being ultimately will get there. But that inconsistency and that unpredictability, which actually isn't unpredictability, it's really the narcissistic person's moods really literally are in lockstep with what happened with them that day. They lack that consistency, that through line.

[00:45:31] Even a person's, okay, I had a bad day. They might even call the partner and say, listen, I'm gonna take a longer driver. I'm gonna go to the gym on the way home because I need to let some of this out. I don't wanna take it out on you. So there's enough of that self-awareness note. I had a terrible day. I don't wanna take it out on others, or I better go to bed earlier, whatever.

[00:45:46] They don't do that. They can throw their tantrums everywhere. So really, in some ways, the narcissistic person stuck at the developmental level of a three or a 4-year-old. I can tantrum anywhere I. And that people are gonna forgive me 'cause I'm three or four. So they do believe that people always have to show them grace, but they won't show grace to others.

[00:46:03] And that unpredictability who's coming home, who am I gonna get? What's gonna set them off means that anybody in one of these relationships does feel chronically anxious and chronically walks on eggshells.

[00:46:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I just couldn't imagine living like that. Another thing that I thought was quite insightful, you mentioned that the narcissists are chronically insecure, but it's not about high or low self-esteem, which I kind of tie those together, right?

[00:46:26] If you have low self-esteem, you're insecure, but it's not really about that. It's this lurking sense of inadequacy that's close to the bone, I think you said. And what's scary about this one is I'm like, wait, I think I have that too. But that in a vacuum doesn't make somebody a narcissist, right? It just makes them, I don't know, a little bit insecure, I suppose.

[00:46:44] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Especially when we talk about gaslighting. Gaslighting is the pathologically insecure, preying on the conventionally insecure. Most of us are what I call conventionally insecure, right? To be a healthy human being is to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses, and none of us have had a perfect run of it.

[00:47:00] So we will admit like, oh, that's a little bit of tender tissue for me. And, and just be careful with that. And so we know what our insecurities are and we slowly process them, and it takes a minute. It takes some miles on our tires to get there. Narcissistic people have what we'd call distorted self-esteem because they either think of themselves as the greatest, most perfect person in the world, or they fall into a big blob of shame.

[00:47:23] There's no middle ground. Yeah, I know some of this, I don't know all of it, like I'm not perfect at this. That idea that for the narcissistic person to either be ordinary or imperfect, it really feels intolerable because all of this perfection and this grandiosity and this greatness, it's like a suit of armor around all this insecurity.

[00:47:42] In fact, the analogy I've been using more and more is that you have to think of the insecurity and the shame inside a narcissist as like a volcano. It's always bubbling in them. And on top of that, volcano is like a big heavy metal manhole cover. And that manhole cover is all their defenses, their grandiosity and arrogance and all the rest of it.

[00:48:00] But every so often that manhole cover gets kicked off a little. Maybe they don't get the promotion. Maybe somebody makes fun of them, maybe they don't get enough likes, whatever. It isn't getting s nudged, then some of that lava and that explosive gook comes out and that comes out in the form of rage. And they're either gonna rage at someone overtly aggressive or verbally angry, or they're gonna be passive aggressive, or they're gonna withdraw, or they're gonna withhold.

[00:48:24] But either way, they're gonna have a strong emotional reaction to some of that schmutzy shame coming out of them, and they wanna get that manhole cover in place. And how do you get it in place by being the dominant one. And you do that through your anger,

[00:48:36] Jordan Harbinger: right? So you put other people underneath you or whatever, so they're fragile.

[00:48:41] They're also ashamed of being fragile from the sound of it. Oh man, that's right. Do I have that one too? I don't know. Maybe. I don't want to admit

[00:48:47] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: that you're not lashing out at someone. So when we're having our fragile moments, we all have them. This is not saying that while the rest of us are not walking around with fragility, we're all walking around with it.

[00:48:56] It's what we do with it and understand it as simply being part of being a human being. I

[00:49:01] Jordan Harbinger: cry alone in the shower like everybody else. Love it. Narcissists clearly can't relate to others emotionally. If they're like this, what do they do? If you are ashamed of your own vulnerability or your own fragility, I would imagine that somebody else wanting to share that with you, like their own stuff, that would be probably triggering, right?

[00:49:21] If they're romantic partners, like, I feel this way, it's Ah, I don't want anything to do with that.

[00:49:25] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So the term emotion allergy has been used to describe narcissist, but it's actually more of a disgust or a contempt. It's as though. When you open up those emotions because it's pinging that manhole cover again, right?

[00:49:37] It's usually met with like, Ugh, God, really? You're so sensitive. And then there's often a pathologization of that other person. You're so sensitive, you're so needy, you're so this. So what they've done is they've projected their shame onto that other person. So now the other person's the one with the problem.

[00:49:51] You're the person that's all these messy emotions who needs it, right? And now the other person's left holding the bag that not only do they have an emotion, they're being told that they're dirty and bad. So that's how the narcissistic people do it. They fling it off. They're like made of Teflon, and they're always flinging off onto others.

[00:50:06] So the others around them often feel quite destabilized, but the narcissistic person gets to stay pristine on the pedestal.

[00:50:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the projection thing rings true. Whenever I read one of your books, I'm like, oh, still talking about this person. Like dead on for them, a lot of projection plus gaslighting. So it'd be like, you always do this.

[00:50:22] And it's like, what? I don't have any awareness of that. That's because you're not self-aware enough to do that. And then it's, you did this thing, or last month you did this thing. And I'm thinking, no, you are the one. You said that and did that. I didn't do that. And then you start thinking, am I just misremembering this?

[00:50:36] And then you have to ask other people if you even can, if they were there. And in one example, I lived with a person and his girlfriend and she would of course back him up, but I think 15 years later now they've been broken up for a long time. She wrote me an email and I was like, Hey, I, I'm surprised to hear from you yet.

[00:50:52] She's like, well, I never actually really thought you were a bad guy, but I was dating this other person, so what was I supposed to do? And I was like, oh, okay. That pretty much shows me. All I need to know. 'cause I was thinking either I've come such a long way in the last 15 years and I'm sure that I have in many ways, or a lot of that was bullshit and I was just being blasted with it all the time.

[00:51:12] Yeah,

[00:51:12] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: I know. Projection is what we call a primitive defense. It's like an infant or something like that. This is not my problem. It it's not my ick. It's your ick. And so then the person gets to, again, they get to stay pristine with inside. So as soon as there's any kind of unconsciously unacceptable impulse or feeling, it gets knocked off into someone else.

[00:51:31] And I always say an interesting tell on whether the narcissist is cheating on you is if you're not, and they keep accusing you of cheating on them. I'm like, I have a feeling that their house isn't that clean. So it's whatever they're accusing you of is usually something that they're doing or struggling with.

[00:51:45] And so that's something to also pay attention to as well. But if you don't know what projection is while it's happening, you're like, what the hell? And then that it becomes part of also the larger framework of gaslighting where you're being accused of things that aren't true, being told there's something wrong with you, that you're not remembering things correctly.

[00:52:01] And like I said, because of empathy, initially, we believed them.

[00:52:06] Jordan Harbinger: This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dr. Romney. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Better Help. Therapy is changing the game on therapy by making it accessible and convenient. It's like having a therapist on speed dial, minus the dread of traffic or the awkwardness of sitting on a two comfy couch in a two quiet office.

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[00:54:01] Learn more@nissanusa.com. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

[00:54:17] And if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, feel free to email me. I'm jordan@jordanharbinger.com. I am happy to surface that code for you. Yes, it is that important. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Dr. Ramini. Nobody wants to be a bad roommate and a bad friend, and then there's two of them and you're like, yeah, maybe I am rooting their relationship.

[00:54:39] What was interesting is finally my mom and other people were like, I'm pretty sure that this is what's going on, and laying it out more clearly for me, I. And I'd gone to see a therapist and she was very much, you need to move out. And I was like, I don't know if I can, whatever. I move out. Two months later they broke up because they couldn't blame me for their problems anymore.

[00:54:57] I was gone. And so the cannons had to move to her and she was like, oh,

[00:55:02] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: correct. That's exactly right. So in some ways, there often can be a third party to absorb the blows and then the person in the relationship who may be invested in making the relationship work, and this is how people get stuck, Jordan, is that when we believe we love someone, our go-to isn't this person's toxic?

[00:55:19] It's how can I make this work and how can I make this work? Means we take the responsibility on themselves and when we see pieces of evidence that don't line up with this is a nice person, we are going to do everything we can do to either justify, rationalize, or find another explanation. So for a while you were the justification.

[00:55:36] Oh, it's Jordan. It's Jordan. It's Jordan. Pull you outta the picture. And that's an interesting way when there is a third party pull you out and now it's mass destruction on the other person, the narcissistic person doesn't stop, they just find a new target. Yeah. It was

[00:55:49] Jordan Harbinger: quite interesting to hear from this woman after 15 years and have her be like, sounds like we both had a bad breakup.

[00:55:55] I was laughing 'cause I was like, that's exactly what it was. I finally just left and my therapist was like, she basically fired me as a client a month later. 'cause she's like, all the things that you were having problems with are just gone now. I was like, yeah, that was. Really interesting and something I should have seen clearly.

[00:56:11] And she's like, don't blame yourself. But it was quite interesting to see. 'cause usually I would imagine as a therapist, you don't just rip off one bandaid and then everything is fine. There's usually a lot more going on. But I guess if you live with somebody like that and they're throwing all this stuff on you and you're not actually the problem, then when you leave it's, oh, I'm not depressed anymore because I'm not being like abused essentially by somebody anymore.

[00:56:33] And I live on my own. And then you start making different friends and dating, 'cause you're not living with your two quote unquote best friends who actually hate you. Things change pretty rapidly. So anyone who's in this situation much easier said than done, but like getting out is probably a really good

[00:56:47] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: idea.

[00:56:47] Oh, I always approach this part of the conversation very tentatively because a lot of people can't get out. And then what then am I gonna be in forever in hell? No, you're not. So it's this, in an ideal world, I'm gonna be honest with you, the gold standard, the best way could go is you do not have to have contact with this person anymore.

[00:57:06] Never ever gonna feel good. And anyone who's had that experience where they were able to get out of a narcissistic relationship after the initial shock, and if it wasn't too bad in the post-separation period, they'll say, yeah, no, my life is much richer with this person out of it. For those who have to stay in these relationships for whatever long reason, and they never have, no one has to defend the reason they're staying, but they have to stay.

[00:57:30] Healing is very possible. It's something I really break down in the book. It really is. A lot of this has to do though, with that moment, that radical acceptance moment, that penny drop moment when you realize, I. I'm never ever gonna get what I need here. It's the day you realize I keep just dropping a bucket in this well, and I keep getting no water, and you're like, yep, this is not ever gonna give me water.

[00:57:53] And that you start building up a world outside of it. It could be friends, it could be taking a class, it could be a social group, it could be a healthy spiritual community, could be an exercise class, could be anything. And existing friendships that you put more time into. That you realize that this is not the place to go and there's a lot of grief around there.

[00:58:11] 'cause you're like, great, I'm in this marriage, it's just never gonna be healthy. And I had to go outside of it. However, then I tell people, let's bring you back to the why of staying. You might be staying for kids. You might be staying for financial reasons. That doesn't always feel good. 'cause a lot of people will say, listen, someone dropped a bag of money on me, this would take care of a lot of my problems.

[00:58:28] It mean I could move out. 'cause in expensive areas, it's actually hard to go and start a new household, especially if there's not a lot of money in play and a person doesn't have steady employments. There's a lot of things that might be at play here, but you definitely can still heal. 'cause once you see it clearly what it is, you'll be a little less likely to personalize it.

[00:58:46] You'll say, okay, this is not a me thing. That's why I called it. It's not you. This is a them thing and this is how they treat everyone. And my bad luck was this was the person I am with and where can I find the meaning and the purpose? Where can I find the fulfillments in my life? Where can I find the awe and joy?

[00:59:02] And always remember to never share it with them. 'cause they're just gonna make fun of it. And

[00:59:06] Jordan Harbinger: in the book, which we'll link in the show notes. And if you use the links to buy the books, it helps support the show. In the book you have a lot of practicals that are like, here's what you can do to get validation or have fun doing things this way and don't bother sharing it with a narcissistic person 'cause they're not gonna ever allow you to enjoy it.

[00:59:22] They're gonna try to make it worse for you. There's a lot of practical sort of drills and exercises in the book, which I really appreciate because it's real easy for us to be like, get away from a narcissist. And everyone's like, cool. I'm a single mom with three kids under five. Yeah, no thanks for the advice you jerks.

[00:59:35] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: And that's, thanks for the advice you jerks. I wanted to get away from, 'cause I've seen this happen even for cultural reasons. 'cause my hope is that this book gets into hands of people around the world. Is that in some parts of the world to say that it's just, it's ridiculous. Like it's not even meaningful guidance and respectful.

[00:59:49] It doesn't account for the context. And also we elevate that to people who hoos their parents, especially if they're aging parents and people will say. Okay, these people are old. I'm not walking away at this point. I don't need to spend as much time with them. But now they understand the limitations of these relationships and may actually ensure just that their older parents are not in danger or something like that.

[01:00:09] Ultimately, you gotta ask yourself what you can live with, right? Because people say, I feel like a sucker here I am taking care of this person, and they've been nothing but terrible to me. I'll say, this is, you're not doing it for them, you're doing it 'cause it's congruent with who you are. And some people say, I'm actually a very caring person and I'm still not gonna care for them.

[01:00:24] I'll say, that's absolutely fine. It's always giving yourself permission to make the decision that feels right to you. 'cause that's what healing is, that you actually allow yourself to be you for your real self to finally be expressed. 'cause it was shut down in the narcissistic relationship.

[01:00:38] Jordan Harbinger: I've got a friend who will take care of her aging parents, but she's like, I'm not letting you see the kids.

[01:00:44] And they're like, why are you abusing us by not letting us see our grandkids? And she's, no, I'm not letting you abuse them, but I'm still gonna pay for your caretaker. I'm still gonna come over and deliver groceries. But no, I'm not gonna let you tell my 12-year-old daughter that she's fat every time you see her, because it hurts her

[01:01:00] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: feelings.

[01:01:00] That's right. And unfortunately they won't stop. Right? They'll find the way in. Oh gosh. How are you? Don't worry. I won't say that you're fat. Your mom already told me. I'm not supposed to say that. So you're saying it's never gonna end like it's a game, right? It's all tactic. And there's a tremendous oppositionality to narcissistic people.

[01:01:18] You gotta remember that it's, you are not gonna tell me what to do, and they're very big on that. My freedom. You're not gonna tell me what to do. And so they get really riled up so you can never ask them to do something directly. It's the sort of thing where you just don't do the dishes and at some point they're gonna need a cup.

[01:01:35] And they'll wash it because they need the cup. Like asking them to wash the cup though will get you nowhere. And so that's one thing that people have to remember is they're thinking, why is it that even when I directly communicate to them that they're not getting it, it's because they're naturally oppositional.

[01:01:50] Jordan Harbinger: You mentioned in the book that narcissism isn't a disorder, so what is it then? And also, isn't there a narcissistic personality disorder? Is that different because that's, it sounds like a

[01:01:59] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: disorder. Narcissism is a personality style, right? It's a maladaptive personality style. It's an antagonistic personality style.

[01:02:06] It's not probably one of the good ones, but it is one. Okay. Just like agreeableness is a personality style. An extroversion is a personality style, and neuroticism is a personality style. They're all personality styles. Right? And. When a person has a narcissistic personality style and they show up to a therapist's office or some licensed mental health practitioner, that person spends time with them and may evaluate them and say, this seems to all add up to NPD narcissistic personality sort, and they put it in their record.

[01:02:38] That's when a person has narcissistic personality disorder, and that doesn't happen that much. In fact, most of the research that's done here, it's usually done on groups of people who are already coming into a clinic and we don't get their names. Like I've done a lot of this kind of research with hundreds or thousands of patients and, but they come in and we interview them with a very set checklist, but they're not often coming in for clinical care, and they're also not coming in because they're coming in for help.

[01:03:00] They're coming in to be in a research study. In those studies we've seen NPD, narcissistic Personality Disorder prevalence rate somewhere between one and 6%. Right? That's usually what the research has found. Now, there are people out there in the world, Jordan, who have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, and frankly, their narcissistic patterns may not be as severe as someone who doesn't have the diagnosis.

[01:03:22] It's just that the person who doesn't have the diagnosis never went to go see someone. And since the vast majority of narcissistic people don't end up in a clinician's office, most of them aren't diagnosed. So I personally think they should get rid of the diagnosis. I don't think it's helping anyone, but that's the

[01:03:35] Jordan Harbinger: difference.

[01:03:36] You also said that in the book, the more maladaptive a personality, the less likely they are to change. Why is that? You would think somebody who's more maladaptive would have more consequences and therefore might actually try harder to fix something. But that's maybe not what

[01:03:50] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: happens. Mental flexibility is key to health.

[01:03:53] Just like physical flexibility is key to health. Mental flexibility is key to health. It's why people are resilient. It's why people are able to solve problems. There's a sort of a go with the flow, being able to pivot, being able to adapt to new situations, all flexibility, antagonistic personality styles like narcissism are very inflexible, so they're almost like people whose muscles are absolutely stiff as can be.

[01:04:13] It's not good for your health. It's also not good for your mental health. And accompanying these maladaptive styles are things like a incapacity for intimacy, a closeness with another person, a real incapacity for empathy, a lack of awareness of why they do what they do. That lack of self-direction. There is a lack of clarity in how they set goals.

[01:04:34] We, this is what we see across all maladaptive styles, and so it's so different depending on the personality style. So it's not an adaptive style, it is not a resilient style. It is not a style that's good relating to other people, and those things are key to being a healthy human being. So that's why it's called maladaptive.

[01:04:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that does make quite a bit of sense. And of course, some of these characteristics that come with narcissistic abuse or narcissistic behavior are interesting. You mentioned gaslighting before. I'm not sure everybody knows what that is. Can we

[01:05:02] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: do it now? Yeah. So gaslighting is a tactic, for lack of a better way to call it, and I think it qualifies as emotional abuse.

[01:05:09] And gaslighting involves a relationship that's predicated on some level of trust. One person's a gaslight, one person's a gaslight, the gaslight. Will doubt the reality perceptions, experience, memory of the other person in the relationship. And then they will also imply that there's something wrong with the other person.

[01:05:33] Like I never said that. What's wrong with you? What do you like demented? Do you have like memory problems? So it's not just saying, I never said that, that's the first part of gaslighting, but they really have to tell the other person there's something wrong with them. But because this relationship is based on trust, it could be a partner, it could be a family member, it could even be like a medical professional, someone who has an expertise, you believe them.

[01:05:53] You believe it's plausible what they're saying, right? 'cause none of us are gonna remember every single thing. And so you'll say, okay, yeah, sure. And now you're destabilized because they're going after you having something wrong with you at this point. So now you're in a different argument. But this doesn't happen just once.

[01:06:09] Gas sliding, certainly in a narcissistic relationship, happens all the time. So over time. People who are gaslighted, second guess themselves, they doubt themselves. They blame themselves. They can almost become obsessive in how they do things. Okay, I need to make sure this is a hundred percent correct. Okay?

[01:06:26] Did we document everything? 'cause I don't want them to come back around and say, so you waste a lot of time over and over again. They'll say, did you remember that this and this on a trip? And in fact, you will have put it aside. But then they chose not to put it in the bag. And so you'll feel literally like you're losing your mind.

[01:06:42] This can involve things like even in manipulating the environment just to mess with you. So they might move a checkbook and you're religious about putting it in the same place every time you go to the place, it's not there. You're like, what the actual, and they'll turn around and say, well, I guess you're not as organized as you thought you were.

[01:06:58] So they will do something to undercut that sense of self. It is abuse and it is a part of every narcissistic relationship. Gaslighting though, Jordan. It's not just lying and it's also not a difference of opinion. So you'll see two people in a conversation and they'll say. I think that this team is great, and the other person will say, I think that team is absolutely terrible.

[01:07:17] And they'll say, you're, don't gaslight me. I'm like, they're not gaslighting. They just have a different opinion than you. That's not gaslighting.

[01:07:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Th this is literally denying their reality and possibly engineering things so that you look right. The moving the checkbook thing, that's next level, right?

[01:07:32] Because it's now you're not just lying to make up for something that you forgot. Oh, you didn't bring the passports. You said you put 'em in your bag and you're like, oh crap, I did, but I don't wanna be wrong. So I can see somebody gaslighting if they really can't be wrong. 'cause it like fractures their worldview of them as perfect or whatever it is.

[01:07:47] But then to engineer a situation, which somebody else is wrong, that is really pathological and creepy.

[01:07:54] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Yeah. But if they're trying to bolster their argument, because it might very well be like your gaslighting response, you do, you organize everything to within an inch of its life and they know that, and you're like, no, this house is practically alphabetized.

[01:08:07] They're not gonna let you have that position. So they're gonna do something to destabilize that position. It would be to move

[01:08:12] Jordan Harbinger: something. And the DVO model. You see this all the time on the internet. I think this is fascinating. Is there a brief way to take us through this? 'cause I think a lot of people might go, oh my God, this is happening to me.

[01:08:21] Yeah.

[01:08:21] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So Dvo, let's give props to Dr. Jennifer Fry, who developed this model. And DVO stands for deny attack. Reverse victim. Offender happens in every narcissistic relationship and she has the data to show it. So let's say you go to them, say, Hey, you gotta stop texting this woman at work. Like, this isn't cool.

[01:08:38] Like this is not right. It doesn't feel good. I don't text her. And really, what are you doing getting into my phone? How do you know who I'm texting? And you know what? What are we even talking about here? Like, you don't even pay a lick of attention to me. It's always your friends and your job. And I just sit here by myself all the time.

[01:08:56] Who are you? What am I even in? So now we've gone to a partner saying What you're doing is not cool and it makes me uncomfortable to, you've abandoned them. But in Dvo, again, originally that work actually was done on sex offenders, but then we came to find out that it actually applied to anyone with an antagonistic personality.

[01:09:13] This is the deny attack. Reverse victim offender. And it confuses the hell outta the other person because now you're in a new argument. 'cause now this woman who is saying, I really, I'm not cool with how much you're texting this person, and it seems like a little bit too friendly, friendly has now become, you've abandoned your spouse.

[01:09:30] Jordan Harbinger: The other thing that was creepy about the narcissistic abuse is minimization, because this is where somebody says, oh, you're just complaining about this or you're always being dramatic. But sure fine. In some ways that's just crappy. But if it's medical stuff that's being minimized, now you're talking about life and death.

[01:09:47] 'cause I was trying to think about why this would be anything more than just annoying and hurtful. But yeah, if someone's saying, you're just being dramatic 'cause you have abdominal pain. You could ignore a tumor or something. And

[01:09:58] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: it happens more often than you think. People delay preventative care, they delay mental health care.

[01:10:04] They may delay repairs on a car, and it also may stall their lives like, Ugh, please stop. Your boss isn't a bad person. Let it go. And a person stays in a job longer than they should or something. But what it does is it undercuts a person's ability to plug into the reality of their own lives in the sense of, I guess this isn't that big a deal.

[01:10:23] And so what happens is even long after you're outta the relationship, you don't feel like you have the voice to be able to say something matters or something is important. And because you've always been told everything in your life is ridiculous and small and all of that.

[01:10:40] Jordan Harbinger: Tell me about bread crumbing.

[01:10:42] There's other forms of abuse, but bread crumbing is something I hadn't heard of before. So

[01:10:46] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: over time, a narcissistic relationship really becomes a place of neglect, right? So narcissistic people are really good at showing up with sort of attention and fun from time to time, and then not being there at all.

[01:10:57] And that back and forth thing is actually why these relationships are so easy to get stuck in. 'cause there's enough good moments sprinkled in there. That you feel like you're in something meaningful or fun or important, and we make all our excuses on the basis of that, but over time, more and more neglect and they're showing up less and less.

[01:11:14] So it's nothing. It's almost like you're with a person who doesn't even notice you're in their presence, which is actually a very kind of unsettling feeling. So people in these relationships will make so much outta the littlest thing. Like they'll say, oh, you won't believe this. They said, happy Valentine's Day to me this morning before they went to work.

[01:11:33] And that's it. Or they're like, oh, you're not gonna believe it. They did remember my birthday. They had to go to business trip 'cause their job's really important. They did send me a birthday text and this is their partner. And so you make, take this little thing. Or they came home for dinner. Amazing. We're so good.

[01:11:49] They came home for dinner. And so that taking the tiniest thing and making it into all this good stuff, literally turning a breadcrumb into a meal because the narcissistic person's learning, they can do less and less. And you're still on the chain. But it's two parts of this process. The other person desperate to keep it going for this reason of trauma bonding and all this other stuff will make something out of that.

[01:12:11] And here's where it gets tricky, Jordan, because in our world, the relationship industrial complex is appreciate every little thing they do. So you're reading another blog that's saying Show gratitude five times a day. That's almost masochistic having to show gratitude to someone who's ignoring you. Then of

[01:12:29] Jordan Harbinger: course if you try to end things with them, there'll be love bombing, right?

[01:12:32] Because the deprivation has lasted so long that they can now turn it up a couple of notches to try and retain you. And it seems like that might be more effective if they've deprived you in the first place. Well, if they've

[01:12:43] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: deprived you, they don't even have to love bomb you. They just have to show up for dinner for show up for dinner, right?

[01:12:46] They don't have to cook. That's it. That's all they have to do. But they have to say, you look pretty. They have to have sent you a birthday text. Like the littlest things become the stuff that is enough in the relationship. And if they really do send you slipping away, then they'll start the full court press again, just long enough to get you back in.

[01:13:04] Jordan Harbinger: What is trauma bonding? You just mentioned that I've heard it before, but I don't really know what it is.

[01:13:09] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So trauma bonding is this connection relationship tied to someone we feel that almost feels psychologically unbreakable, and it's created by the backing and forcing between good and bad chaos and consistency.

[01:13:24] So you're always on your back foot in these relationships. And because these relationships often start from a relatively idealized place, things are great. You feel seen, you feel heard, you feel loved, you feel valued. There's all this fun that becomes this sort of like bank account you keep trying to draw from, from your justifications.

[01:13:41] It will get overdrawn over time, but what ends up happening is that over time you're justifying. You're rationalizing, but over time too, you're blaming yourself more. People say, this has gotta be my fault. If it's your fault and it can be fixed, right? You could do something different. People in trauma bonded relationships will find that they are.

[01:14:00] Constantly having the same conflict with this person. Nothing is ever getting resolved. People when they describe trauma bonded relationships, they'll say it's like we have a magical connection. What is the hell is a magical connection. It doesn't even mean anything. Gimme something. I can hang hat on.

[01:14:13] What is this? It's not like they won't say like, this person is, I trust them, I respect them. We laugh together. It's none of that stuff. Or they'll get stuck again on ephemeral stuff like loyalty, like people love their parents. And I'm like, well, why do you love your parent? Like ejaculation doesn't qualify someone for be a parent.

[01:14:31] Let's just call that straight. But people are like, they're my parent. Give me more. And so when it's a trauma bonded relationship, right? It's kept in place by this, again, this sort of, this pseudo connection that's created by, there's a someday better coming and I know it's gonna come and I know I can do something to make it come.

[01:14:50] And people in trauma, bonded relationships, Jordan intellectually can even say. I know this isn't healthy, but I don't know how to tell you if I have to leave this. I'm having a sense of panic even thinking about it. So there's this sort of left brain right brain, emotionally late and I can't leave. But this intellectually present, I understand it's not healthy.

[01:15:08] For me, that's the trauma bonded relationship.

[01:15:11] Jordan Harbinger: So fascinating. And then I think a lot of people listening are like, oh no, I'm doing that. And that's why one of the reasons I love doing these kinds of episodes, like the last time you and I did an episode, I got so many emails that were people like this explains so much, whether it's their husband, their mother-in-Law, whether their kids.

[01:15:29] And so I'm looking forward to those emails because it means the light bulb went off over someone's head and they go, okay, now that I know what's going on, I can get the book and then figure out what to do about it instead of just blaming myself for my failing marriage. And my husband who's cheated on me 78 times with different

[01:15:46] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: people and nothing I'm doing is changing.

[01:15:48] I lost weight. That didn't work. I got new boobs that didn't work. I got my hair fixed. It didn't work. We moved to a bigger house. That didn't work. Nothing is going to work. And I think that it's like an experiment at that point, right? If you think of a researcher in a lab, they keep trying every variant and they keep a record of it, right?

[01:16:04] We tried that. That didn't work. We tried that. That didn't work. And they at least keep records. So they're gonna say, okay, none of this is working. Unfortunately, in our lives, it's not a research project. We're not keeping the accumulated evidence. And in fact, there's a real investment from a nervous system perspective that we conveniently push all that evidence out of the way.

[01:16:22] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That makes a lot of sense, right? Because keeping a journal of all the times, which is one of your bits of advice, actually, of all the times you've been gaslighted and abused, that's gonna break the psychological shelf to hold all that crap eventually, right? It's gonna be hard to deny when you're on your 13th notebook because it's full of double-sided, printed out whatever accounts of this person treating you like crap.

[01:16:44] You can't really deny that it exists anymore.

[01:16:46] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You can't deny it, but you still feel that physiological feeling, which is why healing isn't as simple as saying, this person's terrible, I have to do something about this. It's also understanding how you experience this in your body. I

[01:16:59] Jordan Harbinger: would love to do another show in a few months 'cause I have, I'm like halfway through my notes on this.

[01:17:03] We gotta talk about at some point how to spot a narcissist, how they suck us back in and retain us, what psychological tricks we're playing on ourselves, like euphoric recall and all these different things. Self blame. I would love to get into that in the next one, but we're gonna be here all day if we do it now.

[01:17:20] So I'm just gonna say thank you so much for this. We gotta do something in the spring or the summer too. I would

[01:17:25] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: love to. I love talking with you. You do a deep dive. You read the book so carefully, but above all else, I wanna always remind people, as hard as this all sounds, it's not you, is really a book that tells you anyone can heal and you can heal.

[01:17:37] And what's on the other side is actually really good.

[01:17:40] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you very much. Really appreciate your wisdom and can't wait for the next one.

[01:17:44] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Thank you.

[01:17:47] Jordan Harbinger: We've got a preview trailer of our interview with Dr. James Fallon on how psychopath brains function differently from the rest of us and why psychopaths thrive in modern society.

[01:17:57] I'm

[01:17:58] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: a neuroscientist since about 1989. I've studied the brain imaging scans of killers, serial killers, really bad murders, and usually did one or two a year for many years. And then in 2005, 2006, I got set a ton of them and I analyzed them. I said, oh my

[01:18:14] Jordan Harbinger: God, there's a pattern. So I saw this pattern that nobody had ever

[01:18:18] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: described, but at the same time, we were doing a clinical study on the genetics of Alzheimer's disease, and we had all the Alzheimer's patients we needed, so we needed normals, just normal controls.

[01:18:29] And so I asked my family, that was kind of my first mistake. I said, look, guys, you want to all get in? I have my brothers, my wife. I said, we'll test you. And the idea being that on my side of the family there was, there was no Alzheimer's at all. So we did it and the two technicians walked into my office, and then on my right side, I piled all these murders, rain scans, and they handed me a pile of my family scans and they were covered up.

[01:18:53] So I couldn't see the names. And so I went through, I went through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. I was really relieved that they looked at the first pass normal. And then I got to the last scan and, and looked at it. I said, okay, guys. They said, this is very funny. You kid around with each other, right? And I said, okay, you switched it.

[01:19:10] You took one of the worst psychopaths from this pile of murders

[01:19:13] Jordan Harbinger: and you switched it into my family. Ha ha. And they go, no, it's no,

[01:19:17] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: it's part of your family. I said, you gotta be kidding. I said, this guy shouldn't be walking around in open society. He's probably a very dangerous person.

[01:19:26] Jordan Harbinger: So I had to tear back the

[01:19:28] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: covering on the name of it, and there

[01:19:31] Jordan Harbinger: was my name.

[01:19:33] For more with Dr. James Fallon, including how to spot a psychopath in the Wild. Check out episode 28 here on the Jordan Harbinger show. There is so much we did not get to. I am already booking part two. Don't worry, it's gonna be out in, I would say a few weeks to a few months, depending on how crazy things get around here, but we are recording that asap.

[01:19:53] It's amazing how narcissists can retain you in a relationship, right? They'll blame shift, they'll use the DAVO sort of methodology. Narcissists can be like skilled lawyers in terms of putting you at fault for pretty much anything they do. They'll use word salad, and there's a concept that I love from the book called Future Faking, which is essentially everything will be good just as soon as X, right?

[01:20:13] It's that, that bad bet on a better future under certain conditions that either never come or when they come, it's just never enough because these people are just a black hole in terms of validation. Really important to remember that their behavior,

[01:20:26] it

[01:20:26] Jordan Harbinger: was there before you got there, and it'll be there after you leave.

[01:20:29] It will never change, at least not because you wanted it to. These people really have to go for it themselves. It's extremely rare and well, you shouldn't bet on it. All things. Dr. Rahini will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com or you can ask the AI chat bot on the website as well. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show.

[01:20:47] All at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. We've also got our newsletter every week. The team and I dig into an older episode of the show and dissect the lessons from it. So, hey, if you're a fan of the show, and I hope you are, and you wanna recap of important highlights and takeaways, or you just wanna know what to listen to next, the newsletter is a great place to do that.

[01:21:06] Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. We got the logical fallacy. Flashcards in there has a little bonus for you. Don't forget about six minute networking as well. That's over@sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and this show, it's created an association with Podcast one.

[01:21:23] My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, mil O Campo, Ian Baird and Gabriel Rahi. Remember, we've rise by lifting others fee for this show as you share it with friends. When you find something useful or interesting, and I think a lot of you're gonna get something out of this, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

[01:21:40] So, if you know somebody who's in involved with a narcissist trying to get out, trying to figure out how to change their behavior, which we know we cannot do. Definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:21:56] Thanks again to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Learn more@nissanusa.com.

[01:22:04] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Hey, it's Adam Corolla. Not sure if you heard, but I do a podcast Monday through Thursday, wherever you listen to podcasts. I team up with the very best comedians in the world, plus critical thinkers and all around nut jobs, and offer my personal insight on current events.

[01:22:24] The state of the nation and the stories you may have missed. As the world gets crazier every day, you can stay fairly sane. I'll keep you there. I'll handle the crazy nuance is often lost on today's world, but you can find it right here available wherever you listen to find our podcast. I'm Adam Corolla and I approve of this message.