939: Teen Blackmailed in the Buff Has Suffered Enough | Feedback Friday

939: Teen Blackmailed in the Buff Has Suffered Enough | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the first feedback Friday of 2024. Wow. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a guy who's literally still shiny from his hot yoga class this morning, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's accurate.

[00:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: Congrats. By the way, I'm being a total parody of yourself, Gabe, making my job so easy this morning.

[00:00:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, man. You know, I'm just sweating out all those cliches over here.

[00:00:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, going to take more than hot yoga, I'm afraid to sweat that stuff out.

[00:00:32] On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

[00:00:46] During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from organized crime figures, jihadi, former jihadi, gold smugglers, hostage negotiators, and astronauts.

[00:00:55] On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and roast Gabe for holding weird poses in 110 degree heat for an hour, like a total psycho.

[00:01:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're referring to happiness?

[00:01:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:01:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: My happiness, yes. It's a lifestyle, Jordan.

[00:01:09] Jordan Harbinger: I want to try it.

[00:01:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: You have to.

[00:01:11] Jordan Harbinger: I need to see what this almost dying while you exercise thing is all about.

[00:01:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: I can't wait to introduce you to it. It's the greatest form of exercise. It's amazing.

[00:01:19] Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm going to be miserable, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

[00:01:21] As always, we've got some fun ones and some doozies, and I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:01:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My girlfriend and I are juniors in high school and have been dating for almost two years now. We are in what we consider to be an extremely healthy relationship. We communicate about everything, and we've set several rules to ensure that no double standards exist in our relationship. One of those rules is no nudes. However —

[00:01:49] That's such a crucial "however".

[00:01:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. Yeah. One of those rules is no nudes, weird rule to have, but, okay, here's the problem.

[00:01:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: However, early in our relationship, my Instagram account was hacked. The hacker sent messages to all the girls and my DMs asking for nudes. He also went into my chat with my girlfriend and saved an old topless picture of her. He then DM'd my girlfriend on a new made-up Instagram account, demanding that she send him private videos. If she didn't do this within 24 hours, he threatened to release the photo to the school.

[00:02:22] Ooh.

[00:02:23] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So we've heard versions of this story many times over the years. Really stressful. Obviously, really sorry this happened.

[00:02:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: We immediately told our parents and called the police.

[00:02:33] Great move, by the way.

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure those were very tough conversations to have, but from what we've learned on the show, that is exactly the right thing to do.

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The scammers, first of all, they're counting on your shame in silence. They're in it for quick cash generally.

[00:02:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:46] Jordan Harbinger: So mostly if you don't play along, it's just not worth their time to keep harassing you. They have a zillion other targets, they're going to give up and move on to an easier one.

[00:02:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on.

[00:02:56] We were told that there was nothing we could do other than speak to our school and delete our chats. I added two-factor authentication to my account. The hacker never did any harm to us, apart from major psychological stress on my girlfriend.

[00:03:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that was awful for her. Just another reminder that your no-nudes policy, which is again, I've never heard anybody having that as a policy. No, really, that's a very 21st century policy that you need to have. When I was these people's age, you didn't need to know nudes policy because you would literally have to take photos on like a disposable camera, take them to Rite-Aid, have them developed, like you're not doing that. You're just not.

[00:03:32] It's a good policy to have no nudes and it's just not worth it in this day and age. Certainly not over social media, text messaging, anything that makes a copy, a secure encrypted messaging app with somebody you're married to maybe, but still just why risk it? I mean, come on, man.

[00:03:48] First of all, you got the real thing right in front of you. Do you really need a sterile digital reminder of it on your phone too? I mean, go live your life. That's my old man yelling at the clouds take on, well, boobs.

[00:04:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: I second that. I don't fully understand. It's not worth the risk. So he goes on.

[00:04:07] Now, eight months later, the vice principal of the school has asked my girlfriend's mother to send him the photo as it's needed in the investigation.

[00:04:17] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:04:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: But my girlfriend and I find it extremely unnecessary for an administrator to have a 16-year-old's nudes.

[00:04:25] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:04:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Signed, About to Collapse Perhaps Due to This Judgment Lapse Over My Girlfriend's Dicey Snaps Months After the Scandal Wrapped.

[00:04:36] Jordan Harbinger: Well, it just keeps going. The sign off just keeps going. I thought you were going to go with some never nude thing from Arrested Development meant,

[00:04:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry, I don't even know that reference.

[00:04:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there we go. Well, I can see that hot yoga hasn't diminished your rhyming skills. Yeah, still a point in your favor.

[00:04:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, I think they've only gotten better since I started hot yoga, so —

[00:04:55] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. We can revisit in a few months. I don't think Wicked Good Podcast sign-Offs is one of the documented benefits of working out in apocalyptic heat.

[00:05:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yet.

[00:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yet, you never know, maybe that Bikram guy was onto something aside from all the Speedos and shady sex stuff.

[00:05:12] And speaking of shady sex stuff, I'm very sorry that this happened to you and your girlfriend. Being hacked, being extorted, it's extremely violating, especially when it involves content like this. I mean, your poor girlfriend, I really do feel for her.

[00:05:26] So this strikes me as odd as well. I'm guessing the investigation involved both the police and your school, and maybe your school has its own process that it needs to go through. So the cops are like, "Eh, no harm, no foul. We don't have time for this." And the school's like, "Yeah, we still investigate this." I'm not really sure. A lot of schools have what's called a mandatory reporting statute plus whatever internal procedure that they have to go through to shield themselves from liability and make sure students aren't being abused or trafficked or whatever.

[00:05:53] So I guess there's a world where the vice principal needs the evidence for his paperwork, but it does seem very strange for frigging Mr. Tabaleski, the 58-year-old vice principal to be calling your girlfriend's mom eight months later. Like, "Hey, that naked photo of your 16-year-old daughter. Yeah. Can I get a copy of that? You know, I need it for my paperwork. Yeah, all my official paperwork, for my investigation, a full school year later." I just don't, I'm not sold.

[00:06:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God. You just nailed that guy. That's so funny. What is this like Chicago public school —

[00:06:30] Jordan Harbinger: Suburban Chicago Accent

[00:06:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: — administrator from the 1980s.

[00:06:33] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:06:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: That was so good. That's like a Ferris Bueller character.

[00:06:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. This is how it strikes me. And it's also weird to get the request in the form of a phone call. Don't you mail letters asking for evidence? I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking this, but the whole thing is just, doesn't quite add up to me.

[00:06:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear you. But also the fact that he's asking the mom for the photo —

[00:06:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: — does make it a little less sus to me. It's not like he's asking the girl for the photo.

[00:06:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:06:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm assuming that if he's asking a parent to send something as sensitive as this to him, I mean that's got to be on the up and up, right?

[00:07:01] Jordan Harbinger: Does it got to be? I don't know. We don't know what he's doing with it. And I know this is dark Jordan peeking out a little bit. Part of me wonders if he's asking the mother to just make it seem more legit. Like, "I can't possibly be doing anything inappropriate. This is all out in the open. I reached out to her mother to ask for copies of her daughter's nudes."

[00:07:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh. You know, like the old Larry Nassar philosophy. Like just keep it in the open and make it seem —

[00:07:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. "Oh, the parents were in the room while I abuse their kids."

[00:07:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:07:29] Jordan Harbinger: "So I couldn't have been abusing their kids." It's like a creepy —

[00:07:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Creepy CYA.

[00:07:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. It's possible we don't know what he's doing with this photo, but he could also just be complying with the school's policies, like you said. So I don't know if it's fair to assume the worst about him at this stage.

[00:07:43] Jordan Harbinger: I hear you. It just seems a little clunky and weird. The only thing we know for sure is that investigating an underage nudes scandal puts everyone in a dicey position.

[00:07:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:07:53] Jordan Harbinger: But we wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to defense attorney, friend of the show, and apparently our newest resident expert on underage nudes, Corbin Payne.

[00:08:03] And Corbin's take was even giving this vice principal the benefit of the doubt, he's still playing with fire here. Corbin told us about some school employees in Colorado who were charged sometime back with possession of child sexual abuse material, and sexual exploitation charges, serious felonies, stuff people get murdered in prison for, for viewing nude photos collected during an investigation just like this one. They only avoided prison time when a judge dismissed the charges. We're going to link to an article about that story in the show notes, very interesting. I mean, talk about a nightmare.

[00:08:36] So Corbin's first thought was the vice principal, he really needs to be careful, especially if this is all on the up and up because it could still blow up in his face. But also Corbin felt that your right to be a little skeptical about this request. He said it could be a legitimate investigation, but he has some concerns.

[00:08:53] So his advice was you and or your girlfriend should probably consult with an attorney. Corbin hates to give you even more to worry about, but he said that there's a surge of minors getting prosecuted for sexual abuse material when they sext pictures of themselves to other minors. One of the many unfortunate consequences of sharing nudes, especially in states with stricter or older laws.

[00:09:16] In fact, Corbin pointed us to another case, this one in Minnesota, where a 14-year-old girl was charged with a felony for sending a photo of herself to a boy that she liked. And we'll link to that in the show notes as well. I mean, that's, I would like to think not what the law was designed to prevent and protect against.

[00:09:33] Now, the good news is that you and your girlfriend are probably in the clear, given that the police seem to have shrugged this off. You haven't been charged with anything but Corbin stances. Man, it's always worth taking extra precautions with stuff like this.

[00:09:47] Corbin also said that your girlfriend's mom would be well within her rights to request proof of an ongoing investigation in writing from the vice principal before handing over anything. But definitely consult with a lawyer first. Because now that I even say that out loud, I'm just like, "Aah, still don't hand it over." And to ask school administrators, by the way, to explain what exactly is going to be done with the photo, who's going to be receiving it, how it'll be stored to ensure her daughter's privacy, totally fair.

[00:10:15] And get that in writing. Not like, "Oh yeah, no, it'll be fine. I'm going to keep it nice and safe over the phone." I want a document that shows it's going to be stored encrypted and the only people that have access are the school board members investigating or whatever it is.

[00:10:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Like is this ultimately going to the police and he's just the one collecting it for them? Although that sounds weird to me. I doubt that's how it would work. Or is this purely for the school's purposes? Is it going to be on some hard drive in the principal's office? Is that encrypted? Is it say, and if so, why?

[00:10:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know what I'm also worried about here is if the police have shrugged this off, the kids are like, "Oh God, thank God that's over." And the school's suddenly like, "Oh yeah, we're still investigating it and we need evidence." Why? What are you going to do? Are you going to then apply some crazy strict policy to the students, retroactively? Like, "Oh, now we have to expel both of you because something, something trafficking in photos, and it goes against this. And the evidence is, you sent us the photo."

[00:11:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:08] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, what is this going to be used for? If this is essentially over you giving them evidence to continue investigating, I don't see how this works in your favor at all. They're not going to find the person who hacked your account by getting the photo.

[00:11:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Certainly not the school administrators.

[00:11:25] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Right.

[00:11:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: So they dodged a bullet with the police. So why relight that fire by sending this photo months later?

[00:11:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That's where I'm at with it, because I can just kind of, I'm racking my brain and I can only imagine that this is going to be used against him and his girlfriend and not for anything else.

[00:11:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: On that note, Corbin also said that he would ask for the school's policies covering investigations like this.

[00:11:44] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, review the handbook, get a handle on the process, how it's supposed to go. Take careful notes on any deviations from standard procedure, and if you spot any, I would flag that with the administration and/or the police, or encourage your girlfriend's mother to do that because I think this is more her job and make sure that this investigation really is proceeding the right way.

[00:12:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that sound advice, and again, I'm really sorry this happened to you. This is awful. But as Corbin said, it sounds like you and your girlfriend have responded very well to all this. You're standing strong. I commend you for that.

[00:12:14] But look, if the nudes scandal is making it hard for you or your girlfriend to function to keep your grades up, if your mood or outlook has taken a hit, if there are any lasting wounds from this, I would really encourage both of you, but especially her, of course, to talk to a therapist.

[00:12:30] To quote Corbin here, "This is a violation and it's also a sex crime." I mean, let's not sugarcoat this. I would understand if it left your girlfriend pretty shaken and asking for the photo eight months later might just dredge everything up again, which by the way is a great excuse for the mom to say, "No, thank you. This is already in our past. We're not dredging this up." And he can demand all he wants. He probably has no power to do that.

[00:12:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:52] Jordan Harbinger: There is help out there and many, many people who have sadly been through something similar. So I hope she finds the support that she needs, and not to sound like a total old fogey here, I know young people have different feelings about this, but in a world where hackers, and especially scammers, because your account really didn't get hacked. Somebody just guessed your password or reset it in a way that was really simple because you didn't have adequate security. Instagram and Facebook don't have amazing security, but it's not the security's fault. It's people not using proper security.

[00:13:21] Anyway, in a world where hackers and scammers like this can damage your reputation and get you in serious trouble with the law, don't send nudes. Guys and gals, seriously, I just don't see how it's worth it. It will always go wrong at some point. We get so many letters about this more than we take on the show, obviously. It can be illegal to send these photos. It can be illegal to receive these photos, and by the way, it can be illegal to have them saved anywhere on your computer or phone.

[00:13:50] This is a real risk, true story. If you have a topless photo of your high school girlfriend and now you're like 38 and married with two kids, and that photo's still on a hard drive somewhere or in the iCloud, congratulations, you are in possession of child sexual abuse material and you can be prosecuted.

[00:14:08] So this is really serious stuff. It doesn't matter that you're married now. It doesn't matter that she's older now. It doesn't matter that she's aged out. It doesn't matter that the photo's old. None of that matters. So we're wishing you both the best Hope this investigation wraps up quickly and respectfully and good luck.

[00:14:22] You know what else Mr. Tabaleski wants to get his cringey little paws on? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:14:32] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. We often get caught up in the whole New Year, new you craze, but let's flip the script and think about what we want to keep the same in 2024. There are a few things I'm pretty proud of and I want to maintain, not my body fat percentage for sure. First up, my curiosity, my love for learning. It's what drives the podcast. And honestly, it's just a big part of who I am. Another thing is my network. The circle of people I know, like, and trust. I've spent years cultivating relationships with some incredible people. These connections, relationships, they enrich my life. Keeping and nurturing these relationships is definitely on the 2024 agenda. Therapy helps you spot your strengths and make changes that really stick. Learn positive coping mechanisms, set healthy boundaries. Therapy is all about helping you be your best self, and it's not just for folks who've been through some tough stuff, trauma, whatever. It's also for people looking to boost their mental game. So if you're thinking of giving therapy a whirl, try Better Help. It's totally online. Designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. Fill out a brief questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist. Switch therapist anytime. No additional cost. As we head into the new year, let's focus on expanding what we're doing right.

[00:15:34] Jen Harbinger: Celebrate the progress you've already made. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:15:42] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by AG1. Hey, if you're a long time listener, you know, I've been drinking this stuff for like 10 years, going on 10 years. The founder, a huge health enthusiast friend of mine, introduced me to it a long time ago. I actually got stopped at the airport because I had a giant bucket of green powder with me going through TSA. When I started drinking it daily, aside from getting busted by airport security, there's some changes. That's like your gut health improves. I'm always trying to deliver that without being too gross. And that's because AG1 is a foundational nutrition supplement that supports your body's universal needs, like gut optimization, stress management, immune support. Since 2010, AG1 has led the future of foundational nutrition continuously refining their formula to create a smarter, better way to elevate your baseline health. Even my friends in nursing who face marathon 12-hour shifts with hardly any time for a break and a lot of cafeteria food have started using AG1. They often mention how it's been a game changer in keeping the nutrition boxes checked despite their hectic schedules.

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[00:17:11] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:17:15] Okay, what's next?

[00:17:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 24-year-old woman and I'm graduating from college in six months with a bachelor's degree in plant sciences with an emphasis in horticulture and cropping systems. I'm kicking myself for not researching job availability in my field before spending four years getting a degree.

[00:17:35] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, look, I hear you, but most people don't do that. Colleges don't help you do that. I mean, they should, but they don't. But that doesn't have to stop you outside of a few fields. What you major in, doesn't matter what you do with it, how you tell the right story, that's really what matters.

[00:17:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed. So she goes on.

[00:17:53] Needless to say, there aren't many jobs available in my field. Any jobs that are available are jobs that pay horribly and that I would qualify for without a degree. I currently work at the research greenhouse for my university as a research assistant. I love it, but it doesn't pay great. The man who runs the research program loves me and keeps pushing me to get a master's and do research for him. He's a very successful man in my field and a great connection to have, but I don't have any desire to do research.

[00:18:23] Jordan Harbinger: Well, if you don't have any desire to do research, then definitely do not get your master's degree. This is not your path. Sometimes that means disappointing somebody that you like and admire and you know that sucks, but you don't owe it to this guy to do grad school if this is not the world you want to be in.

[00:18:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: My husband and I started a small online business selling house plants. It was doing okay and I liked it, but it fizzled out because we were too busy with school. I have also been paid by people a few times to draw up landscape designs for them. I really like creating landscape designs and I'm good at it, but most people get a different degree for that. So far, I've drawn them by hand, but that's not sustainable. If I wanted to do more of this, I would have to teach myself the design software that most people learn while getting a degree for landscape design.

[00:19:11] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so this is clearly where your passion lies, and I think it's really important to pay attention to that. I love that you've already been hired by people to do designs. I think that's great.

[00:19:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: So exciting. I don't know. I feel like that's her path, but let's —

[00:19:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's see where this goes.

[00:19:25] I'm now approaching a crossroads. I've always wanted to start my own business. Something I can call my own, but I'm terrified of failing. Do I stay at my current job part-time, and work on restarting my houseplant business or design landscapes on the side? Should I just go for it and quit my current job? Do I try and find a job somewhere else, even though it probably won't pay great? Do I completely start over with a new degree? Signed, The Hamstrung Horticulturist.

[00:19:54] Jordan Harbinger: Great questions. You are struggling with something that so many young people struggle with, people of all ages, actually, and I was excited to read your letter because, oh, there are some ideas in here that will, I think, apply to anyone at any age of their career trying to make a change or launch their own thing or rewrite their story.

[00:20:11] So my general take on breaking into a new field or making a career transition is 80 percent of it, probably more is the story that you tell in the relationships that you develop. Obviously, there are certain fields like medicine, engineering, language translation, where you need certain degrees or certifications or experience, or you just can't actually do it.

[00:20:33] You can't talk your way into being a doctor unless you're Frank Abagnale, which turned out to be a thing that didn't happen, and you'll always need to bone up in certain departments no matter what. But in your case, if you can tell a compelling narrative about how you started out in horticulture, you discovered your passion for design and landscaping, and now you want to join an architecture firm or a landscaping practice so you can design people's backyards or whatever. That is enough to pitch yourself and or get jobs in this world.

[00:21:00] I mean, you are already being paid by people to do this, so you already have work experience. This goal of yours has already been validated, but you need to make a shift from viewing your degree as a liability to viewing it as the first stage in your journey.

[00:21:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:15] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. If you knew you loved landscaping earlier, maybe you would've done a different degree, but you didn't. You can't go back and you're not ready or excited to do another degree, which, yeah, probably isn't even necessary. So your only option is to start working with what you have and learn how to tell that story.

[00:21:30] I mean, I went to law school, right? And I. Should have gone to broadcasting school or whatever, but I didn't and I never went. And here we are.

[00:21:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: And here we are. And that does not stop Jordan from killing it at roasting me every week. So do not let this stop you. I don't think he took that course in law school.

[00:21:44] Jordan Harbinger: No. That was just a pure passion project, really.

[00:21:48] All right, so the story that you want to tell is, "I freaking love plants and I follow that passion into horticulture and cropping systems in school. And I worked in a research lab doing super interesting work with a brilliant guy in the field. And that gave me a real understanding of the science of plants. But then I realized, eh, I don't really want to do research. I want to be hands-on doing design and making clients happy by doing their landscaping." That story makes perfect sense to me. It's precisely the kind of story a 24-year-old would tell and can tell well. There's zero expectation that you should have it all figured out in advance at your age.

[00:22:22] I actually think employers and clients will be super moved and intrigued by that story. More intrigued than meeting somebody who had her landscaping career plotted out since she was 12. Look, opportunity and luck will always play a big role in any career transition, and that's why I'm always banging on about relationship building because relationships are the most effective and the most reliable way to maximize your opportunities and your luck.

[00:22:47] It's no coincidence that the luckiest people out there are usually the most connected people out there. What seems or looks like luck or being in the right place at the right time, that's usually a function of being close with people who show you where those right places are and who open those doors. And you've heard me talk about Six-Minute Networking — now over at sixminutenetworking.com, by the way, it's a little easier. Well, you heard me talk about that way too much, so I'll just leave that there.

[00:23:12] Now about the design software, how you have to learn that special software to really take this thing to the next level. I get how that might be daunting. It probably does feel like a roadblock, but just trust me on this. It is not. You can learn any software on your own. Sure, you would've learned it if you did a landscaping degree. Fine, but you didn't. So now you get to learn it in a new way. You can buy super affordable classes online on any topic.

[00:23:40] We're going to link to one for landscaping design in the show notes, just as an example, and you can learn on your own, or you can play around and Google or YouTube questions when you don't know how to do something, it's actually super fun. This is no different from a musician who has to learn how to use pro tools to produce her own album when she didn't go to art school, or I don't know, an aspiring financial analyst who needs to learn Excel when they didn't go to business school, or yeah, a podcaster who has to learn all kinds of random audio software because they went to law school.

[00:24:08] Don't let software stop you. Most software now is designed to be learnable and easy. You know what? I just thought of this as well. If you don't know something about a software and it's very specific and you can't find the answer often you can go on a website like Upwork and find somebody who works with that software as a freelancer and you could hire them instead of doing a project for you freelance to show you how to do things in that software, and they can just do a screen share and teach you, "Oh, you want to learn how to 3D render a design you made?" "Yeah." "I'll just show you what I'm working on right now."

[00:24:40] You can create relationships that way with people who really know what they're doing. Usually those people are hired to do a job. You can have them teach you how to do the job they're doing, and often they won't mind doing it because they get paid hourly.

[00:24:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love it. That's a great tip. So there's a bunch of practical stuff for you. I want to take a moment to talk about your fear. And to me, this is really the heart of your letter. You have found your passion from the sound of it. You know that landscaping is what you really care about and you want to start something that you can call your own, but you're afraid.

[00:25:08] So let me start by saying that nothing, nothing could be more normal than that. Every entrepreneur, every business owner, every artist, every self-starter has this fear. In fact, I think you'd be a little crazy not to be afraid of going all in and taking a chance on yourself. So here are a few questions that I would invite you to explore.

[00:25:27] The first one is, when you say that you're afraid of failing, what are you actually afraid will happen to you, specifically? What does failing mean to you? And what does it look like? And if you did happen to fail in the way that you imagine, what would you do at that point? How would you move through that? How would you process it and pivot to something else, or make some adjustments and try again? What could you do now to mitigate your chances of failing.

[00:25:53] Jordan Harbinger: Good questions, but also, what if you succeeded? How would that feel?

[00:25:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] Jordan Harbinger: How can you invest in yourself and your relationships to maximize your chances of succeeding?

[00:26:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also a really good question because I think a lot of entrepreneurs focus on the worst case scenario.

[00:26:08] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: But it can be even more useful sometimes to think about the best case scenario and then figure out, you know, how do I work backward from there? But also a good question is, what if you fell somewhere in the middle? You know, what if you succeeded in some ways and you kind of failed in some other ways, what would that look like? And honestly, what would you do then? Would you just keep learning and growing? I think you would.

[00:26:26] Jordan Harbinger: Look, take it from a guy who started a bunch of businesses and works with a lot of entrepreneurs. You can't convince yourself that you're not afraid. The feeling is there.

[00:26:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:26:34] Jordan Harbinger: But you can use that fear to protect yourself and come up with a solid plan. Most of us, me included, at various points, we let our fear paralyze us when we really need to study it and harness it.

[00:26:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but here's what you have to remember. Not trying at all is also failing.

[00:26:49] Jordan Harbinger: I would actually argue, yeah, that's the best way to guarantee failure.

[00:26:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so true. So actually, I wonder if her hesitation about learning the software is also maybe a way to let herself off the hook here. You know, a good excuse to avoid chasing this dream. Because it's easy to go, "Well, I would've learned this crucial skill if I had done the degree I should have done for the job I really want, but I didn't." So, you know, then you have a reason to not chase that dream and to stay safe.

[00:27:15] But once you go, "Okay, I care about this field, so I'm going to go learn this software myself so I can do the work I want to do." The dream becomes real and now you're on the hook, you're committed, so you might succeed, you might fail, but either way, the stakes are real. And yeah, that can be very scary.

[00:27:32] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. And that's another good question to explore whether all these questions about what to do are also maybe a way to avoid doing the one thing you have to do, which is just take the next step toward the field that you love.

[00:27:45] So in terms of whether to quit your job or keep your job, or find another job or restart the houseplant business that we can't answer for you, that answer will come if you really sit with all these questions, talk to people you trust and admire your husband, your boss, your peers, and just keep experimenting and playing. The houseplant business sounds cool. And if you can make it successful and enjoy doing it, awesome. If you can design landscapes on the side, wonderful. You have to decide if you really love it enough to put in the work.

[00:28:11] I can see you doing a couple things to make money while you invest in this landscaping goal, and there's also a nice connection between the houseplant business and designing gardens or whatever. So that's something to consider.

[00:28:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. But honestly, whatever you do, my advice is to just keep playing. I mean, play with this passion of yours, play with the software, play with your designs. Put something out into the world. You know, maybe you post a free garden design for people to download on the internet. Maybe you do a proposal on spec for a client. Maybe you create some cool houseplant starter packs and post them on Instagram or whatever it is. See what life throws back at you. In my experience, that's the most reliable way to know what works and what people really want.

[00:28:48] Jordan Harbinger: But I would definitely not pursue a new degree until you are 100 percent sure that you need it.

[00:28:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed.

[00:28:54] Jordan Harbinger: Our generation and the next generation and the previous generation, we're all programmed to think we need college to qualify us for something, and it's just not true. More school won't solve all your problems. Make these moves on your own for a year or two and see where you are. You'd be amazed what relationships plus skills plus experience will do for you. That's better than school every time. Trust me. I love your curiosity. Love your passion. I admire the entrepreneurial spirit, but if your own company is really what you want, then you're going to have to become a lot friendlier with your fear.

[00:29:25] So at the risk of sounding like one of those gurus, Gabe would probably fall for because they teach such hot, good yoga classes, man. I'm going to leave you with the old adage. Courage is not the absence of fear, but acting despite it. And I have no idea who said that, but it doesn't matter. Keep that idea close, and I know it'll lead you to some exciting places. Good luck.

[00:29:43] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the walls, or you're losing your younger sister to a suspicious commune slash cafe cult. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:30:06] All right, what's next?

[00:30:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have been married for six years. She comes from a very troubled family. Her father was an abusive alcoholic and her mother was a neglectful narcissist. My parents became her metaphorically adoptive parents when she was around 15, which is how we met, and she became very close with them. But she struggles with relationships involving parental figures. Since our marriage, her relationship with my parents has deteriorated, especially with my father. I know my dad isn't perfect, and my relationship with him was significantly stressed as well, partly because of my wife's relationship with him, but also because of some personal things between me and my father. Long story short, my wife and my father used to work at the same company, and when my father got promoted to a managerial role, several of the employees began grumbling about how my wife was going to benefit from a lot of favoritism. To quash those rumors, my father publicly said that, if anything, he would be harder on my wife because she's family. She left that company a few months later citing a situation where she felt that she was singled out unfairly. At the time, I did my best to validate that, but also protect their relationship, even going so far as mediating a discussion between them. Fast forward four years and we hardly go over to see my parents, despite living five minutes down the road, and my wife hardly engages with them outside of pleasantries in person. Afterward, she always has choice words about the get together. Then recently, my father got a medical diagnosis that will significantly impact his quality of life. I decided to bury the hatchet with my father and focus on trying to rebuild our relationship. Since then, my dad has made significant attempts to demonstrate his love toward me and my entire family. He told me he's proud of me several times when he hadn't said those words to me in years. He always tries to make intentional time to talk with us when we visit. He's buying me thoughtful gifts and he always shows love to our three-year-old son. I really feel like he's turned a corner, but my wife refuses to believe that these changes aren't a narcissistic compulsion to regain power in the relationship so that he can try to manipulate things again. She started then stopped comments about something encouraging my father has said to me and seems indifferent to the affection he offers. She has to stop herself from saying things when he compliments or encourages me. How do I continue to rebuild the relationship with my father while also encouraging my wife to give him another chance at loving her and our children. Signed, Feeling Sad That My Wife is Still Mad When I've Got This New Dad Who Wants Us to Be a Triad.

[00:32:49] Jordan Harbinger: I take back what I said, Gabe, I think hot yoga might actually be killing some brain cells.

[00:32:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that sign-off honestly did fall off a little bit at the end, so fair.

[00:32:59] Jordan Harbinger: It's not your finest work, but your skin is positively glowing. So where's the trade off, I guess?

[00:33:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. So weird to hear those words from your mouth. I don't know why.

[00:33:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was a little, a lot of character. This is a tough question though, Gabe.

[00:33:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is.

[00:33:13] Jordan Harbinger: I'm imagining this situation. It's from each of their perspectives and I can kind of identify with all of them. Our friend's perspective. Of course, he's caught between his father who does seem to have changed somewhat and his wife, who still has her guard up around her father-in-law slash adoptive father. Man, it's a little confusing when you marry your sister. All right, pal. Then there's — his adoptive sister, but he doesn't introduce her that way. "Here's my adopted sister slash wife, Angela."

[00:33:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:33:38] Jordan Harbinger: Then there's his wife's perspective, right? She has this difficult childhood, an abusive alcoholic father, a narcissistic mother who neglected her. I mean, that's super sad to start and she clearly feels burned by the father, and I can definitely understand that. And then I also relate to the dad who might have done some not so great things the way he treated his daughter-in-law when they worked together. Other things he did to our friend here that he didn't really elaborate on, which I find kind of interesting.

[00:34:03] But the father's older now. He seems to be trying to do better. Maybe the situation where you adopt a girl and then she ends up marrying your son, but then she also works for you. I mean, give the guy a little credit for maybe trying to navigate those waters as well. It's tricky.

[00:34:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:34:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So he probably deserves that chance to do better if he's really genuine with it. So I can see how this situation developed, and I think there's a lot going on in this story for his wife especially.

[00:34:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:28] Jordan Harbinger: Much more than is even in this letter.

[00:34:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I think we got to start with her.

[00:34:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, let's do that. So she has a past, right? A very painful past.

[00:34:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:37] Jordan Harbinger: And my sense is that those early relationships with her parents made her extremely vulnerable to being injured by parental figures. Our friend alluded to that, right?

[00:34:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:34:47] Jordan Harbinger: But I think it also made it hard for her to stay consistently connected to those parental figures, to be able to express her feelings and work things out with them when things don't go well, because I'm guessing no one did that for her growing up.

[00:35:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally, because here she is, she's very hurt by this guy's father, and I can't tell how warranted that is. What exactly happened in that situation where she was supposedly singled out unfairly at work.

[00:35:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If she was.

[00:35:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's an interesting thing too. I mean, maybe he was just being a decent manager and by trying not to play favorites, he came down kind of hard on her once and maybe look, who knows, maybe that was appropriate. Maybe he did single her out or maybe she was to blame for whatever happened.

[00:35:27] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: What we do know is that she took it unusually hard, and that was amplified by the fact that it was her father-in-law slash her adoptive father from the time she was 15 years old. And by the fact that it probably echoed these earlier wounds from her parents.

[00:35:43] Jordan Harbinger: But it's also possible that he was being kind of a dick.

[00:35:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:47] Jordan Harbinger: Or he was appropriately tough on her, but didn't communicate that well. And the wires got crossed and things didn't get repaired back then, and dot, dot, dot. They can't be in the same room together for five minutes.

[00:35:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: But whether the dad was right or wrong, this is the crux of the issue — how they are working through all of this.

[00:36:02] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Or not working through any of it.

[00:36:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: You have his wife who is not going to her father-in-law and saying, "You know, you really hurt me when we work together. I feel you singled me out unfairly. I thought we were family then. You treated me very differently. Now I'm really angry with you. You know, what the hell was that about?" And then, you have this father who also is not going, "I know you're angry at me, and I'm not entirely sure that that's fair. I had my own pressures as a boss, but I want to make things right. I want to be part of your life. So let's figure this out."

[00:36:30] They're both clinging to their feelings and their stories, and no one is really trying to understand the other or invest in a relationship that can survive this injury. Dad, I think, is doing his best by giving gifts and showing love and taking a real interest in their son, which is wonderful, but that's not exactly getting to the root of the problem.

[00:36:49] Jordan Harbinger: But then there's this idea that he's only doing those things to regain power and manipulate the situation again. I don't quite know what that means. Yeah, it's a little abstract, but if that's true, then I don't know. Is it possible that she has a point?

[00:37:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, she might, but again, I wonder if she's transferring some qualities of her own parents onto her father-in-law because her grievances and her fears sound eerily reminiscent of an abusive father and a neglectful narcissistic mother.

[00:37:20] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. It's like, are you just projecting your bio dad's negative qualities onto your new father-in-law?

[00:37:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Kind of.

[00:37:27] Jordan Harbinger: When he says or does certain things, she might be interpreting them through the lens of this parental figure is trying to control me, trying to manipulate me, trying to abandon me, whatever that template is.

[00:37:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Or I need to abandon him before he can abandon me.

[00:37:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Interesting. Well, that fits with what our friend said about the parental figures thing.

[00:37:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also with her decision to leave the job and then stay far away from her in-laws. That fits too.

[00:37:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. As opposed to, what? Like pulling back, licking her wounds, processing her feelings.

[00:37:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And then going to her husband or her father-in-law and saying, "Look, I'm really upset. Maybe it's my past, maybe it's you, probably both, but I want to talk about it." And maybe they do talk and they understand each other better and they repair things, or she tries to do that and her father-in-law just cannot listen to her or relate to her. And then that confirms that he isn't really a safe or close parental figure for her, but then she knows for sure.

[00:38:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. That approach just isn't in her toolkit. She has the screwdriver, but she's missing the needle nose players. As you can tell, I'm very handy around the house.

[00:38:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Such a good metaphor. And you didn't hesitate at all. It was great.

[00:38:33] She's going to have to develop that capacity, which by the way, that is not just a skill. I think that's the product of doing some very deep work on her own past, probably in therapy.

[00:38:43] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: And the dad is going to have to do something similar because my sense is that he's not the greatest communicator either. He's more of a, "let me show you how much I care by giving you gifts and playing with my grandson" kind of guy. But he's not bringing quite as much baggage to their dynamic from the sound of it.

[00:38:59] Now, there's one other angle we got to talk about here, which is this thing he said about how his wife bites her tongue when his father says something encouraging to him.

[00:39:07] Jordan Harbinger: Right. She has to stop herself from clapping back when he tells him he's proud of him and stuff like that, that's a little —

[00:39:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:13] Jordan Harbinger: — confusing. Like why rain on his parade? I want to make sure you know that those compliments aren't legit. That's weird to me.

[00:39:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: So that's probably the residual anger and suspicion about her father-in-law's motives. But I wonder if there might also be some envy in the mix here.

[00:39:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Interesting. You mean like I wish I had a dad who said nice things to me and meant them.

[00:39:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know she's mad at her father-in-Law, but it might also be hard for her to watch her husband have a dad who's being kind and loving now and hard for her to watch him enjoy that so much given how different her parents were.

[00:39:47] Jordan Harbinger: You know, I could see that. because she could be going, "Look, I'm not crazy about your dad, but I'm glad you have a nice relationship with him. Just, you know, keep your guard up." What she's saying instead is, "I kind of resent that you're eating up his compliments and encouragement, and I kind of want to undercut that when we're alone together. So you don't, what, get too high on your horse."

[00:40:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. So you'll have to decide if that fits with what you know of your wife, but it is just, you know, one more possible contour to the situation.

[00:40:14] Jordan Harbinger: Although now that we're talking about it, that might not just be envy, right? It could also be some jealousy.

[00:40:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. Like she might be competing with her father-in-law for her husband.

[00:40:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Over who gets to have him, so to speak.

[00:40:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:26] Jordan Harbinger: Because this kind of does feel a little bit like a family love triangle.

[00:40:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very good point. So when she tries to undercut his dad's praise or remind him what a bad guy he was, that might be her way of keeping her husband in her corner on her side.

[00:40:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or actually, you know, more to the point not losing him because that might be her big fear. The core of those old wounds from the abuse and the neglect and the narcissism. This fear that people will leave or let you down, or that some highly seductive and manipulative parents will somehow take important things away from her, including her relationship with her husband.

[00:41:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And that might be what makes her perceive her father-in-law as a real threat. Exactly. And you know, it just occurred to me by punishing her father-in-law, she might actually be punishing her own parents. Again, to your point, Gabe, by locating parts of them, especially her father in him.

[00:41:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, for sure. And this would also be a really great question for her, whether she struggles not just with parental figures, but also with people in positions of authority, older people in general, because those templates might follow her around wherever she goes.

[00:41:32] So how do you continue rebuilding with your dad while also encouraging your wife to give him another shot? Well, I think it starts by accepting that you and your wife have very different experiences of your dad. And I mean that both in terms of you have very different life experiences with him, like she worked with him and you've just been his son, but also you look at your dad through such different lenses because of your pasts. And you might have different opinions about whether he deserves a second chance.

[00:41:58] Like Jordan said, it's definitely worthwhile to consider whether your wife has some fair point about your father that might be a little hard for you to see objectively as his son. But also it's worth asking whether her fears about him are just entirely informed by her own parents.

[00:42:14] The more you can communicate with her about all of this, why your dad hurt her so badly, why you feel he deserves another chance, why she feels he doesn't, why you're willing to forgive him, whether you're still holding him accountable for some of his mistakes appropriately. The more you guys can talk about all of that together, the better. But this might be a situation where your wife just cannot have a close relationship with your dad. That might be fair. It might be unfair, and you and your son have a relationship with him, and that's just how it is for a little while.

[00:42:43] Longer term, the key to encouraging your wife to give him another chance is, well, as you can probably tell, I think you're going to have to rewind the tape a little bit. You're going to have to start by appreciating and helping your wife appreciate why she has gotten to this point. And that probably means unpacking the childhood stuff and the work drama and her relationships with parental figures in general, and why it's difficult for her to believe that they can change. You know, why is she being so rigid? Why does she believe that he did this thing? Why did she interpret events this way? And helping her explore some of that with you.

[00:43:14] But you have to approach all of that from a position of curiosity and compassion, patience, and also a genuine desire to understand where she's coming from. It can't just be, I need you to get over this parents thing so you can be cool with my dad already, because I've decided that we —

[00:43:29] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: — need to bury the hatch. And that's just the way it's going to be. That is not going to work.

[00:43:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I totally agree with that, Gabe, but is that really something he can do? I mean, realistically.

[00:43:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a lot for any partner to take on and no, it might not be something that she can do with him and it might not be appropriate for them to do together.

[00:43:46] Jordan Harbinger: So therapy, hitting the couch extra hard today?

[00:43:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ideally, yes, because she has some profound wounds and she's probably bringing them, like we said, to a lot of relationships. I think it's just the most pronounced with his father right now. But that doesn't mean that he can't invite his wife to talk about them. He can't be her therapist necessarily, but he can still be a friend and a real source of understanding and support and hopefully some perspective.

[00:44:09] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. I just think it's going to be hard for her to hear some of this from her husband who's part of this triangle.

[00:44:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:44:14] Jordan Harbinger: Also, couples therapy is a great option because a lot of this is about how you guys relate to each other and work through these disagreements, and also how you're raising your kids. The other side of this triangle, of course, is your dad, and I would try talking to him too. Maybe you could encourage him to reflect on that time at the company. Maybe you invite him to reach out to your wife, tell her he wants to work on the relationship. Maybe when the time is right, you can mediate another conversation.

[00:44:40] This is a process and it might require some very frank and potentially uncomfortable conversations, but listening to one another, recognizing how y'all got here, potentially forgiving and releasing some of the pain, that's really the only way forward. And I'm sorry, really sorry to hear that you're stuck between the two of them. I'm very sorry to hear about your dad's diagnosis. I hope it's not super severe. It sounds like it might be. This is all just very hard and it sucks that you can't try to rewrite this relationship with your dad without it coming at your wife's expense.

[00:45:11] But this is also a great opportunity for everyone in this situation to grow, whether everybody wants to, that's a different story. And then the question becomes, "What kind of relationship do I want to have with my dad, apart from my wife," which I hope we don't get to that. I hope she can hear you out, and I hope you can return the favor. Start there. Good luck.

[00:45:29] How about creating your own little love triangle between you, our show, and the amazing sponsors who support it. We'll be right back.

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[00:48:02] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:48:06] Okay, what's next?

[00:48:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been running my home maintenance business for 10 years and we now have a terrific team of eight well-trained staff. We go above and beyond to provide excellent service, and I have a fantastic base of about 150 clients, most of whom have been with us for five or more years.

[00:48:26] That's so cool.

[00:48:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it sounds like an awesome business. Well done.

[00:48:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: My problem is that I'm exhausted from constantly fighting consumer expectations. I'm a small woman in a male dominated industry, and a lot of people assume that I will be slower, weaker, and cheaper than my male counterparts. Clients seem to expect a close, friendly relationship with me, but I'm not realistically able to be best friends with all of them. I receive feedback that amounts to, "I thought we would have an emotional connection. I hoped you would never send staff and always come personally." Or they'll increase our tasks, but keep our hours the same, and then complain about a lower standard of work as we rush around trying to complete everything.

[00:49:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've actually heard the same thing from a bunch of female friends who are also entrepreneurs or business owners, that certain people, usually guys, they expect a level of involvement or interest from them above and beyond the service that they're actually providing, which, okay, you could chalk that up to them being interested in you. Or it could just be that they're needy and demanding and want to feel cared for, but they're more comfortable asking for that from a woman than a man. They're not going to ask their carpenter Mike to stay and have a cappuccino, but they see Amanda, the super bubbly contractor and go, "Hey, stay. Have a scone. Look at all 200 of my photos from my trip to Maui, or whatever."

[00:49:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a nightmare. But it's weird to me, very weird to me that they're expecting that from the person who's doing their home maintenance. I mean, if you were running a babysitting agency or a coaching business or something, I could see clients wanting her to be more emotionally available or whatever, but why do clients want that from the person who's fixing their air conditioning? I don't get that.

[00:50:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is not your hairdresser and you're like, we just don't click. I'm just sitting there awkwardly. No, it's weird, and it's maybe because her business is about people's literal homes, their private space, so that creates a certain intimacy, a feeling they want her to be a part of their lives. I don't know. I mean, I had a landscaper and a designer and a builder, and I've never seen them since the house. We're done. We're done here.

[00:50:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:50:22] Jordan Harbinger: They're nice. Fine, but that's it. We're good.

[00:50:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or to your point, some of these clients are just really needy and inappropriate, and they're looking for some form of female attention. It might not even be romantic. It might just be like motherly or nurturing or something, and she just happens to be the person they feel they can get it from.

[00:50:38] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It sort of sucks, but it's an interesting challenge for a business owner to deal with creatively, and we'll get to that. All right, carry on.

[00:50:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I raised my rates earlier this year, and it's clear that I can't raise them further. Clients are struggling to pay and our country is in a recession. I've discussed this with a few male friends in our industry, and they have never faced these issues. They can send their apprentices to jobs without the clients asking where they are, and they're charging significantly more than I do too. Recently, a client hired us because she felt we would empower her to be more vocal about her needs. Then she fired us shortly after feeling that we had not done so.

[00:51:16] Vocal about her needs? Again, I'm so confused by this. Why is a client asking a contractor to help her become more confident? I don't know. It feels like they're bringing a lot of personal stuff to her.

[00:51:29] Jordan Harbinger: It's fascinating, isn't it? Again, I wonder if they feel more comfortable bringing some of these demands to a woman, especially if the client is also a woman like in this case, but

[00:51:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:51:39] Jordan Harbinger: I'm with you. She's your HVAC repair person, not your freaking therapist. Part of me is going, these are the clients you should be happy to lose because they're just too difficult and demanding. Sometimes losing a client is a blessing, but yeah, I'm going to hold off for a minute.

[00:51:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Feedback like this is devastating. As I work extremely hard to ensure that I set reasonable expectations and am upfront about how the business operates. I've never encouraged or implied that I am interested in being this present or emotionally close to clients. I'm just a friendly, charismatic person who needs to know a little about their personality in life in order to do a good job.

[00:52:17] Ah, well, that's an interesting clue, I think to all this.

[00:52:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. My hunch is that she is amazing and friendly and she's great with people and she's kind, and she's present and she takes an interest, which is great customer service, and then people respond really strongly to her, and certain personalities try to take advantage of it.

[00:52:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a tough bind to be end because the answer can't be, stop being friendly and charismatic, just be cold and boring and they'll leave you alone. Then she's going to lose business.

[00:52:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:52:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, okay. She goes on.

[00:52:44] This business is my baby and I'm very invested in doing a good job, but now I'm putting off emails because I feel like there's never any good feedback in there. I'm at the point where I wonder if I care too much to be a good business owner. My resilience has been at an all time low, and I'm now wondering if I should just quit and work for someone else. Do you have any tips for taking the sting out of unhelpful, but persistent feedback? Can you give me a reframe here? Signed, Learning to Be Defiant With These Overly Needy Clients When They are So Damn Reliant.

[00:53:20] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, this is fascinating and something every business owner deals with to some degree, but clearly women more than men, and I totally understand why this is so frustrating, but let's just take a moment to appreciate.

[00:53:32] Part of the reason you're in this situation is that you've built an incredible business. You're friendly, you're responsive, you're passionate about providing great service. So basically you care. And because you care, people respond strongly to you as they should. Finding people who genuinely care, especially contractors who are notoriously flaky slash sloppy slash distance slash terrible at customer service, it's all very rare. It's a superpower, really.

[00:53:58] So on one level, this is a champagne problem, but there's a flip side to that, which is when you care, people want a lot from you, and because you care, you feel obligated to satisfy them, even if what they're asking for is unreasonable, which makes it harder to put your foot down.

[00:54:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also because you care, their negative feedback probably hurts so much more. So when they're unhappy, it's not just, "Oh, Daniel's angry because he wants more than I can give." It hurts and it's demoralizing, and now it's infecting your entire outlook on being a business owner.

[00:54:30] Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, I can relate. When you're the owner, everything is personal. When I get hate mail or even some light criticism, I take it probably way more personally than I should. It's totally normal.

[00:54:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:54:39] Jordan Harbinger: So what I want to encourage you to do is hang on to this amazing quality of yours, this great capacity for carrying this pride in your work, but also develop some stronger boundaries in a new lens on the feedback.

[00:54:50] So first of all, when clients act in ways that are objectively unreasonable or unfair, I think you need to learn how to say some version of, "Okay, I hear that you're not happy. I'm going to do everything I can to make it right. I can't always be there on site myself. I can't do half hour phone calls with you right now. I do have an amazing team. Jesse's coming out to fix the ac. Lisa's doing the landscaping. I told them to take great care of you. You are in amazing hands. Hands I personally chose. So talk to me about the new fence, the garden, the heating system," whatever it is you're doing for these clients. "Tell me how the project is going. What can I do to make you happy with the job?" That kind of thing.

[00:55:29] And obviously, not all at once, but whatever the situation calls for, you can have a diplomatic and positive response that still kind of checks a difficult client.

[00:55:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:39] Jordan Harbinger: Now you don't need to be cold or short to make your point. You can be warm and caring and appropriately available and boundaried with these clients at the same time.

[00:55:49] Obviously. I wouldn't say, "Look, I'm not here to have an emotional connection with you chump. I'm not your therapist. I'm not your girlfriend." You don't have to do that. But. That's the subtext when you essentially tell a client, "I'm here to make you happy, within the appropriate definition of our relationship, I'm expecting you to agree to that definition."

[00:56:09] Because where this gets dicey is when they ask for something that's inappropriate, and then you cave because you're afraid to piss them off, which probably then only empowers these exact people to ask for more. Or because it's hard to stay kind while you draw a line. And I get it. It's a tough line to walk.

[00:56:26] And yes, I think it can be harder for women than men to walk this line sometimes, maybe because women are often taught from a young age to make other people happy, sometimes at their own expense, often at their own expense. So maybe because as a woman, your natural impulse is to be nurturing and collaborative, which again, those are superpowers in the right amounts.

[00:56:46] Or maybe it's just because sometimes men can be really freaking uncomfortable to deal with when they're asking you to essentially hang out with them on the job. And you got to tell them, "Sorry bud, but I'm great at what I do and I'm super reasonable. And you hired a contractor, not a girlfriend."

[00:57:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:00] Jordan Harbinger: But drawing those boundaries, that's a key skill for any business owner who's dealing with clients, men or women, any niche. And I've had to do the exact same thing with my clients. Back in my coaching days, I made friends with a lot of guys who came through my programs during the program, after the program, hanging out, keeping in touch for years. Still keep in touch with a bunch of them, but it wasn't because they paid me. And the friendship happened after our professional relationship had pretty much ended.

[00:57:26] So that's your task right now to learn how to do that without losing your pride and passion for the work.

[00:57:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. And also to do it with a certain grace and style that doesn't alienate too many people. The other boundary we need to talk about is the one closer to home. You know, when she gets this difficult feedback from people. Jordan, it was interesting, she called that devastating, and I get it, getting criticism from a customer when your whole business is about being amazing with people, that really hurts.

[00:57:54] But for something to be devastating, it has to touch a part of you that is very vulnerable to it. So that's the other side of this equation that you can work on, not just managing difficult clients so they don't overstep, but figuring out what happens inside of you when they say stuff like this.

[00:58:11] Now, we don't know you very well, but to Jordan's point earlier, you're friendly, you're charismatic, you love making clients happy, and I'm guessing that getting bad feedback makes you feel like you failed somehow, not just at work, but maybe even as a human being.

[00:58:28] So in my view, part of your job is to start playing with a new idea here, which is "Customers can be angry with me, they can be disappointed with me. And it might not always be a reflection of me. And also people could be disappointed and I can still be firm in what I can and cannot offer. And that doesn't make me bad or necessarily put my whole business at risk."

[00:58:50] Now that is a little bit of a hard shift to make, so I'm not glossing over that. You might always deal with these personalities, and that's just one of the really tough things about not just being in your field, but being a woman in this field, especially when clients are demanding and you have to satisfy them.

[00:59:04] But when I hear you call this business "my baby," when you say that you're very invested in doing a good job, when you say that you don't want to look at your inbox, because "I feel like there's never any good feedback in there. And I'm at the point where I wonder if I care too much to be a good business owner and you know, maybe I should leave all of this behind and go work for somebody else." What I'm hearing is a person who is very identified with her business, who might sometimes equate her self-worth with other people's opinions about her, including people who are objectively annoying. A person who sometimes cares about people at her own expense and whose solution is to go work for somebody else where she won't be in the line of fire anymore, rather than on trying to develop a new approach to handle these difficult clients.

[00:59:50] And that is the sort of person who can be very wounded by criticism as opposed to say, you know, mildly annoyed or kind of bummed or temporarily worked up, which is appropriate. I'm not saying that emails like this shouldn't bother you as the owner of this business. Unhappy customers should bother you, and it is part of your job to deal with them. What I am saying is let's try to appreciate why they bother you so much and whether there's a new stance with these clients that might allow for a little bit of a healthy separation and a greater tolerance also for other people's negative feelings in a way that does not end up tanking your whole outlook on what sounds like an amazing business.

[01:00:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I would love for her to do that. But also just knowing that there are super annoying people out there. I also want to give you some permission to let certain clients go if you can't make them happy without bending over backwards.

[01:00:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: Some people are just never satisfied or they're so demanding that they're simply not worth the money, and that is just a reality of client service.

[01:00:49] When I was with my last business, a training company of sorts, I always had to balance sales goals with problematic clients or people that I knew were going to be more trouble than they were worth. It's not easy, especially when it's your money. You know, you see dollar signs and you're like, "That's a problem for future me. I don't envy that guy. You know, I want that check now."

[01:01:07] So maybe the reframe here is your goal isn't to make every customer happy all of the time, but to focus on the clients who allow you to make them as happy as possible in the services that you are willing to offer them. And hey, maybe that means focusing on fewer customers at the rate you currently charge so you can actually make the business more profitable and less stressful.

[01:01:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or providing great service to people you can actually make happy is how she can eventually raise her prices, which would be cool.

[01:01:35] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. That's another interesting subplot here, Gabe. The price thing. She said her mail counterparts charge more, and I'm sure that's true, but I also wonder if this impulse to be so accommodating to her customers is also why she finds it hard to say, "Hey, rates going up, or, yeah, we can do these three extra things you asked for outside the scope of work. Here's what it'll cost." It's just another idea to consider.

[01:01:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I just want to say one more thing here, which is you have to remember that most customers only write in when they are angry. It's a really unfortunate reality of customer service, and it can completely distort your view of your business. So when you check your inbox and there are three emails from people yelling at you for refusing to be their emotional support blanket or whatever, stop, take a breath and remind yourself that there are literally dozens and dozens, possibly over a hundred customers right now who are thrilled with your service and they are not writing you an email because there is nothing wrong.

[01:02:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, it took me years to remember this. Unhappy people fire off mean emails, happy people sit at home quietly because there's nothing to complain about, and they assume the contractor knows they're awesome. That's why feedback skews negative a lot of the time.

[01:02:45] Bottom line, everything you're dealing with is very normal and you're doing great work here. You've built an incredible business that is no accident, but before you bail on it, I would try a new approach with these clients, figure out how to process their feedback in a way that doesn't wound you quite so much. And part of that art is learning to separate the information from your feelings a bit more, processing your anger or your sadness or your panic rather than running away from your inbox or even your whole career. And I know you can do this. We're rooting for you. We hope we were as emotionally available to you in this response as you'd hoped. And if not, you can always leave us a one-star review and ruin our days and make us question our entire calling. Good luck.

[01:03:24] All right. What's next?

[01:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've always been a private person. I've never put a lot of personal things on social media. I sometimes tend not to volunteer information in a conversation if we weren't already talking about a similar topic. In my mind, it makes sense to inform people of the goings on in my life only if it includes or affects them. Otherwise, I'm always happy to answer questions. Unfortunately, this has caused issues for me mostly in romantic relationships, where this privacy comes off as intentionally keeping someone out of my life or like I'm hiding something or as just a really odd thing and I don't realize that I've done it again until someone's feelings are hurt. What can I do to become aware of when I should open myself up? Signed, Try Not to Make People Cross When I Become a Locked Box.

[01:04:15] Jordan Harbinger: Great question. First off, kudos to you from noticing this pattern and wanting to work on it. That's fantastic. That's half the battle right there. What I am hearing in your letter is a real desire to connect with people, to have richer relationships. I think that's part of you noticing this pattern too, and that's a great sign.

[01:04:32] So look, it's perfectly fine to be a somewhat private person if your privacy is important to you or you just don't feel the need to disclose a ton of information, or you're careful about who you open up to. I wouldn't beat yourself up for that. Where this tendency becomes an issue is when it holds you back from certain experiences, namely the experience of being truly connected to people, being vulnerable, having fulfilling relationships. You have enough data now to know that this is kind of a thing.

[01:05:03] Being private is sending certain signals, it's apparently hurting some folks. Some people just find it odd, which tells me there's more to this than you know, "Oh, I'm just a quiet guy." So my question for you is, actually I have a few questions. What if, and just go with me on this for a second here, because I might be totally off. You might disagree. This is an exercise. What if being private is a way to keep someone out of your life or to just keep them at arm's length a little bit, maybe in ways you're not even aware of. What if you are hiding something, even if it isn't some big, deep, dark secret. Maybe it's something smaller, like how you're truly feeling, or how you showed up in a certain situation, or even how you come across when you talk about yourself.

[01:05:43] What I'm getting at is this. Is there a part of you, and it might just be a tiny part. That's a little uneasy about other people knowing things about you. Even in these kind of mundane ways. That's what I would explore if I were you. Write down the answers. Challenge yourself to dig underneath this. "Oh, I'm just a private person thing." Maybe talk it out with a friend. If you can stomach opening up about this. I've realized that's why you're writing in.

[01:06:09] Gabe. It's funny, I can relate to this guy because I've definitely been like this at certain points in my life and it's like, oh, am I shy? Am I private? I don't even know.

[01:06:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. Me too. Definitely. And just like our friend here, I also considered myself a private person and I still am. Sometimes I thought I wasn't interesting or people didn't need to know everything about me. But then over time you grow up a little bit and you're like, is that really true? Or am I just a little uneasy about other people knowing me better? Or is it safer in a conversation to not reveal as much information and let the other person do all the talking? Or is it just a little anxiety provoking to take up a little more space, you know?

[01:06:44] Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly it. I think when we hoard information or hide parts of ourselves, it's not just because we're shying away from the spotlight or we think that we're not that interesting, everybody's interesting. It's just that opening up can be uncomfortable, and we're usually self-protecting in some way.

[01:07:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Or we have some ideas about whether we deserve to open up, you know, whether it's okay.

[01:07:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. He did say that he's always been a private person, which means this tendency probably does go back a long way.

[01:07:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would be curious to know what his childhood was like. You know, did his parents take a genuine interest in him? Did they encourage him to open up? What were his other early experiences? Did people validate him when he shared stuff about his life? Those early messages are hugely impactful.

[01:07:28] I mean, just look at the wife from question three, the one who's arguing with their father-in-law and how the whole falling out with the family, you know, the one with the difficult parents. It's just fascinating, like who your parents are and how they listen to you affects how you show up in these conversations. So depending on the house he grew up in, I can definitely understand why he might've grown up to become somebody who says, "Uh, well, I'm just a private person. It's just easier that way."

[01:07:50] Jordan Harbinger: When really underneath that might be a whole mess of feelings about why it pays to be, quote-unquote, "private."

[01:07:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, of course, because being a private person might allow you to control what people know about you. It might help you control how they perceive you, or could even help you control what you know about yourself.

[01:08:08] You might not even be in touch with certain things because you're not sharing them with other people in the first place. I mean, look, being vulnerable — we've talked about this so much on the show — it is hard. It can be uncomfortable even for people who are more practiced with it. So being private might also be a way to protect yourself from that very raw feeling of just being kind of exposed. But of course, being exposed in that way is a beautiful thing, and it's table stakes for any good intimate relationship.

[01:08:35] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it is intimacy, literally. So, hey, here's an idea. Might be a great exercise for you the next time you start a new relationship, especially a romantic one. What if you tell the person, "All right, here's something about me. I can be kind of private, I can be a little guarded sometimes. I don't mean to be, I just don't share a lot about myself, naturally. That's hurt some people in the past. It's something I want to work on. So I just wanted to tell you that. And if that ever gets hurtful or weird, please tell me and I'll try to open up a little bit more."

[01:09:05] I think just saying that will go a very long way in avoiding this pattern. I think the other person will really appreciate that and it'll make it that much easier for them to bring this up if it becomes an issue, which might be how you start to work on this.

[01:09:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that. And you know what I love about that? Just saying something like that to somebody that isn't just saying that he wants to rewrite this pattern that is rewriting this pattern.

[01:09:25] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Because now he's volunteering an important piece of information about himself. The fact that he doesn't volunteer easily. So taking a chance and saying something like that would be a huge step for him.

[01:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. Hey, and look, if he does that over time it will get easier to open up. It just takes some practice and willingness to try things a new way. And look, you can still be judicious about what you share about yourself and with who. There's still a place for privacy. You don't have to do a full 180 to have successful relationships.

[01:09:53] It's more about playing with different levels of vulnerability and noticing what happens to you and the other person. Do you get closer to them? Do you get further away? Is it scary? Is it exciting? Do you regret it? Do you enjoy it? Maybe a little bit of both. I'm guessing both. And that's relationships, baby. So dig into this. Give it a go. You're on your way already. I know it. Good luck.

[01:10:15] I hope y'all enjoyed the show today. I want to thank everybody who wrote in everybody who listened. Thank you so much. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I know we brought it up earlier. Six-Minute Networking.com. It's free. It's not gross. It takes a few minutes a day. I wish I knew it 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. And yes, both the number six and spelled out sixminutenetworking.com. I got both.

[01:10:43] Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals are AI chatbot and also point the way you can email me. I'll point the way. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn Gabe's over on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:11:04] This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:11:38] You are about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show about how sanctions work and whether or not they're effective.

[01:11:44] Juan Zarate: At the base level, a sanction, which is a law or a regulation that is intended to disallow access to the US financial system or to US goods or to services from US citizens is a sanction.

[01:12:00] People want to hold dollars. They want access to the US system. They want to list on the New York Stock Exchange, right? These are real elements of power in a global environment where money, power, economic influence is a part of competition and warfare. I often said at the Treasury Department, our job strategically was to make it harder, costlier and riskier for America's enemies to raise and move money around the world.

[01:12:26] But that's the essence of this power, and it sits between the talking of diplomacy and the hard power of our military, and that's why people resort to it so often. But I do think there are going to be challenges fundamentally to US predominance in this space, challenges to the dollar, challenges to the payment systems and challenges to the notion that this is the safest, most secure place to hold your money, to invest in and most attractive place because of our capital markets, rule of law, et cetera.

[01:12:59] That's why I think some of these state actors have an interest in undermining the credibility of our institutions. Like it or not, the economic and financial domain is a domain of conflict and competition. Do you want to be legitimate and be able to operate in the global system?

[01:13:15] Jordan Harbinger: To learn how the US wields its financial power against terrorists, rogue states, and global crime syndicates, check out episode 863 on The Jordan Harbinger Show with Juan Zarate.