927: Miko Peled | Journey of an Israeli in Palestine

927: Miko Peled | Journey of an Israeli in Palestine

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:03] Miko Peled: From the river to the sea means freedom over all of historic Palestine, freedom from apartheid, freedom from checkpoints, freedom from violence, freedom from racism, where like I said earlier, the possibility of Israelis and Palestinians living together in peace becomes a reality. That's how you make it a reality. It's the only way that you can make it a reality.

[00:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional former cult member, arms dealer, rocket scientist, Emmy-nominated comedian, or extreme athlete.

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[00:01:16] Today's guest is the son of a prominent Israeli general who is now firmly pro Palestine, and one might say, anti-Israel. He's one of the leading voices in the Israeli left, many would even say the radical left. We'll cover Miko's history growing up in a patriotic Israeli military family, joining the IDF, having a crisis of conscience, so to speak, and coming to the conclusion that the State of Israel, as it currently stands, simply cannot be allowed to continue on the path that it's on.

[00:01:43] This episode is a counterpoint to the Mosab Hassan Yousef episodes that we've had recently on the show, and I think you'll enjoy this conversation even if you think you might disagree with Mikko or his perspectives here. He did argue in good faith, at least in my current assessments and I really actually enjoyed this conversation even though we were not on the same page on a few things.

[00:02:02] This is one of those episodes where any pushback I give to the guest is both way too much and not nearly enough depending on what side of the conflict that you are on or which side you've chosen to be on. This is going to be a lose-lose situation for me just like when I had Mosab on the show, I think.

[00:02:18] Or plastics or people's weight or gender or anything that gets people riled up in any way whatsoever which seems to be pretty much everything. I will say I've been pleasantly surprised so far by the amount of grace that I have from many of you, and both shocked as well as disappointed by the amount of apologists for atrocities on both sides of this conflict.

[00:02:38] All right, here we go with Miko Peled.

[00:02:43] As you might expect, I'm probably going to push back on some things you might say. I don't know what you're going to say. I've just prepped the interview. And sometimes people get a bit upset about this, either the guest or the listener, and I'm not totally sure why, I think conversations like that, they hold people to intellectual honesty.

[00:03:00] It gets more out of the conversation. So, you'll find in me a friendly audience generally, but of course, I'm still planning to take you to task on some of your ideas, possibly just as I do with most guests on this show, especially with a divisive topic like this. I'm telling you this because I think sometimes people think I'm just pushing their buttons because I'm some kind of a*hole and that's not really my aim.

[00:03:19] Even though I also happen to be maybe a little bit of an a*hole. But you're Israeli, you should be used to opinionated loudmouths by now.

[00:03:26] Miko Peled: Not a problem.

[00:03:28] Jordan Harbinger: So, tell me how you grew up. I know you grew up, well, very Israeli, very patriotic Israeli.

[00:03:34] Miko Peled: Yes, I mean, I grew up — I mean, when it's you, you think it's perfectly normal.

[00:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:03:37] Miko Peled: You grow up as a kid, you go to school, whatever. My father carried a huge legacy. He was part of this generation of officers who were young officers, in 1948 when the State of Israel was established, and they're considered gods. And then he was a general. He remained in the military. He had a career in the military, he stayed in the army. And then he was one of the generals of the 1967 war, which again is one of these epic moments in the history of the region.

[00:04:05] And again, as an Israeli kid, particularly as a kid, but for Israelis, that generation of generals, again, are gods of the Olympus. I grew up with that, plus I had a great uncle who was the president, I had a grandfather who signed the Declaration of Independence. I had all these people around in my extended family who were all the Fathers of the State, so to speak, and that held important positions once Israel was established.

[00:04:27] And so certainly I was a patriot and I lived in this reality that I thought was a reality. I didn't realize there was another reality because Israelis, we live in a bubble. And that was my upbringing. That was until maybe when I was in high school or something like that, when things began to change a little bit.

[00:04:44] Jordan Harbinger: How did things start to change? Was it your parents who started to change? I know you moved to LA as a kid. Was that the beginning of this?

[00:04:52] Miko Peled: No, not at all. I moved to LA, my father retired from the military in ’68, and then we moved to LA for a few years for him to finish his PhD at UCLA. So that, I was a kid, but another thing that my father did after he retired, he began to talk about this idea of a Palestinian state and this whole thing that there’s no such a thing as Palestinians, because we just call them Arabs. He started talking about the PLO and he started talking about the need to negotiate, and the need to give them their own rights, granted on a small parcel of what was historically Palestine.

[00:05:22] And that was huge. People started attacking me, attacking him. He was a traitor. Suddenly he went from this national hero and huge figure to suddenly becoming kind of a pariah and all that kind of stuff. So then, I was in high school and that's kind of what I began to realize, there's something going on here that maybe it's not all as rosy and wonderful and patriotic as I thought.

[00:05:46] And there was a story that I mentioned in my book in The General’s Son that my mother told me many, many times, which is when she was 22 years old in 1948 and the Zionist militia, which later on became the Israeli Army, took Jerusalem, they kicked out, you know, the Palestinian population.

[00:06:04] I mean, the ethnic cleansing was absolute. Not a single Palestinian remained in West Jerusalem. And their homes are made available to Israelis. She was offered a home, and these are gorgeous homes. They're called Arab homes, the Palestinian homes in West Jerusalem. The neighborhoods are still there, are really beautiful homes.

[00:06:21] She was living in a small apartment with her mother, and she was already a mother herself, and she was offered this wonderful home. And she refused. She said, “How could I possibly live in a home of somebody who was thrown out, kicked out?” And then she talked about how they looted and stole, the Israelis looted, and stole things.

[00:06:36] As a kid growing up, that story didn't make sense because it was contrary to the narrative. It was contrary to the history and the story of the heroism that I was led to believe was true. I witnessed it later, or much later on in life that I went to talk to her again about that story and had the full picture. But you know, so there are cracks in that wall gradually moving on, going up. Then, I was military, and Israel invaded Lebanon. That was another big crack.

[00:07:00] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:02] Miko Peled: Another very serious crack in the wall of faith and righteousness.

[00:07:05] Jordan Harbinger: Tell me a little bit about that. You joined the IDF because everybody in Israel has to join the IDF, well, pretty much, unless you're like, what, super religious or disabled, I guess. Are those the rules?

[00:07:16] Miko Peled: Yeah. Those are pretty much the — unless you're somehow disabled or you can prove that you're ultra-Orthodox.

[00:07:21] Jordan Harbinger: Why don't ultra-Orthodox Jews have to serve? I never quite understood that, because I'm like, okay, you're able bodied and it's not like you have a pacifist objection because a lot of those same people are like Likud party, sort of, not all, but like right wing-y kind of folks in Israel. They're not like peacenik. So, I don't get that.

[00:07:38] Miko Peled: No, they are peaceniks. That community, they are peaceniks.

[00:07:42] Jordan Harbinger: They are.

[00:07:42] Miko Peled: First of all, they're forbidden. Jews are forbidden from carrying weapons. And then number two, they are a deeply religious community. The army is completely secular. Men and women mix. The food is not kosher. I mean, they dream of sending their kids.

[00:07:55] Separation of men and women is absolute in that community, and the army has no such thing. And so there was an agreement very early on when Israel was established, they don't want the army. The army really doesn't want them. I mean, who wants a group of ultra-religious, you know, I mean, it was a pain.

[00:08:12] So there was this status quo, everybody agreed that that was going to be a thing. About 20 years ago, a group of politicians that entered the stage, Israeli stage of politics, the political world, used it as a wedge issue. And they said, “These are parasites. They're not carrying the weight. Our young men and women serve while they sit around and do nothing, reading the stupid Torah,” that kind of thing.

[00:08:35] Well, to them, reading the Torah and studying the Talmud is not stupid. That's what a Jew does. You know, they are a deeply faithful religious community. Now, there are settlers and Likudniks like you described, that dress like the same as those guys. So, it's easy to confuse these right-wing settlers with this very righteous and really quite holy community of ultra-Orthodox Jews who have a real reason.

[00:08:59] And many of them don't even recognize the state because the idea of a Jewish state is contrary to Jewish law. So, there are all these different issues that are thrown into this thing.

[00:09:09] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's confusing because they have Israeli passports and they live in Israel, but they're like, “Well...”

[00:09:13] Miko Peled: They didn't want those passports, they asked not to be citizens. When State of Israel was established, that community precedes the State of Israel.

[00:09:20] Jordan Harbinger: I see.

[00:09:21] Miko Peled: You know, because that's a religious community in Jerusalem going back a very long time. And when the State of Israel was established, they begged the United Nations to give them some kind of a special status. They did not want to be citizens of that state.

[00:09:32] Jordan Harbinger: Huh.

[00:09:32] Miko Peled: But nobody listened to them.

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:09:34] Miko Peled: It's not like they're enjoying the benefits, and they don't want to serve. They don't want the benefits. They don't want anything to do with this secular entity that to them, like I said, is sacrilegious and contrary to Jewish law.

[00:09:44] Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. I never knew that.

[00:09:46] Because yes, you're right. You said those guys dress alike. That's pretty much where I'm going, right? I'm thinking like Hasidic Jews with the curls and the Russian hat version, especially. I'm like, I can't tell between one that lives in the West Bank in a house that they maybe threw some Palestinians out of two weeks ago.

[00:10:03] And then the people that live in Oak Park, Michigan, where I grew up, who I'm like, I can't imagine these super — people who walk everywhere. It's a very different kind of thing. They just happen to have the same uniform. And it sounds so ignorant saying that out loud, but I'm just going to wear that on my sleeve for this episode because it's hard to tell the difference.

[00:10:21] Miko Peled: A lot of people are confused by it. What's particularly funny is like, the big communities in New York, for example, when politicians run for office, they come to them, they’re a very large community, they’re a very large voting bloc, and they tell them how much they love Israel. And they go, okay, in this community, that is not a plus.

[00:10:37] That is not something you want to show, talk to us about. Israel is not our thing at all. We care about other issues, but we don't stand with Israel.

[00:10:44] Jordan Harbinger: That’s funny. It's like, “Well, I came here to kiss ass and you got to give me — throw me a bone here. Tell me which ring I'm supposed to kiss here, which cheek.” That's confusing for them. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's had that go over his head. Because I consider myself reasonably well-informed on some of this and it's just, it's very hard to tell. There's so many different factions inside and outside Israel, inside Arab communities, Middle East communities, Jewish communities.

[00:11:07] This has got to be one of the more confusing conflicts. And I'm talking about even when you look at things like the genesis of ISIS and other also complex Middle Eastern stuff. This just seems to be extra, there's just layers upon layers upon, it's like Jerusalem's like a metaphor, right? You dig three feet down and there's a whole another layer of stuff you gotta spend ten years studying before you can dig any deeper.

[00:11:28] Miko Peled: Have you ever been there?

[00:11:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I used to live in East Jerusalem in Har Hatzofim, but only for a short time. I wasn't going to tell the story, but I was just so ignorant. I went there because I was like, “Oh, study abroad. I'll go to Israel. They have something going. It'll be kind of cool to live in the Middle East. I couldn't probably live in Saudi Arabia, so I'll check out the Middle East.”

[00:11:46] I only went there knowing that Israel was a democracy in the Middle East and Jewish, that was it. It wasn't like, “I'm going to go live in the Holy Land.” I didn't care about that at all. I just went there, and I lived in the dorms in the French Hill. There was a house behind our dorm, and I was thinking about this when I was reading your book, there's a house behind the dorms and it was like, weirdly out of place, right, because there's all these nice houses and then there's this house that's fenced in and I thought like, what's the deal with this house?

[00:12:12] Why doesn't the university move this or buy this or something? And then I started realizing that I kept hearing rocks hitting the ground near me when I walked by the house and I was like, is someone throwing rocks at me every time I walk up to get falafel? And sure enough, there was a kid who would play outside, and he would throw these rocks, and these were not little rocks.

[00:12:31] And so, I went in. I went through the fence and I knocked on the door, and I was like, “Your son is throwing rocks,” and she just yelled at me in Arabic, and it was not a friendly conversation. And I thought, oh, okay. She doesn't understand me. Maybe she just thinks I'm trespassing. I was friends with these Palestinian guys, these Christian guys.

[00:12:45] And I was like, “Hey, can you help me? This kid throws rocks at me. And I just want to tell his mom, because then she'll knock him one and he'll stop.” And they were like, “Oh, I don't know about that.” But I kept asking, kept asking. They were like, “Fine.” They go up to the door and they were legit just screaming at each other in Arabic and they were like, “Yeah, that kid's not going to stop throwing rocks at you.” I was like, “What? Why?”

[00:13:05] And they're like, “They think that you're a Zionist, and this is Palestinian family. This is probably all their land before, and that kid is been taught to hate everybody who walks by, and you walk by here all the time. Notice that there's nobody else taking this route ever.” And I thought like, oh, so this kid just thinks I'm an invader and he kept throwing rocks at me.

[00:13:24] And the mom basically told them like, “Screw you. I'm not going to tell my kid to stop throwing rocks. You get off my land.” That was basically the conversation.

[00:13:30] Miko Peled: Right. Yeah, interesting.

[00:13:32] Jordan Harbinger: So, I guess I kind of get it. I would be pissed off, too. My grandpa had a farm and now it was a bunch of dorms with kids who were like giving me the finger out the window at night. I don’t know.

[00:13:41] Miko Peled: And you didn't get any compensation for it. The army came and took it.

[00:13:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. I don't know how it happened, but I assume that's how it happened. That's how it has to happen.

[00:13:48] Miko Peled: That's how it happens. That's how it happens everywhere. That's how it happened, yeah.

[00:13:50] Jordan Harbinger: So, it was one of those many lessons I learned in Israel where I was like, whoa, okay. This is not all sort of sunshine and roses, and there's people here who are on the losing side of this equation in a real bad way.

[00:14:02] Miko Peled: Right.

[00:14:04] Jordan Harbinger: Did you want to be a general like your dad when you were little? Because it seems like a complex situation, right? You're like, “I want to be a general, I want to be pro-Israel,” and then your dad's opinion starts shifting, and your opinion of your dad also, and your political opinion starts shifting, and then it's like, “Maybe I don't want to be a general in the IDF.”

[00:14:19] Miko Peled: Well, when I was three and four, I did. But once I grew up, you know? And then certainly, once I was old enough to actually serve, there was no way I was going to stay in the military one second more than I absolutely had to.

[00:14:31] Jordan Harbinger: What was your experience like in the IDF? Because it sounds like by that point, you were mid transition from like, rah, rah, Israel, and then you said the invasion of Lebanon started to really change your mind. What happened?

[00:14:41] Miko Peled: You know, when I started all rah, rah, and I was very excited to serve, like I was only a kid, especially with a family like mine. But step by step, the things you see, and I described it in the book, there's a chapter called The Red Beret, and every kid wants to get a red beret because that's the sign of [unintelligible] prestigious, like it means you're legit.

[00:14:58] Jordan Harbinger: Certified badass.

[00:15:00] Miko Peled: Yeah. Exactly. I got the red beret, but in the process of getting it, I noticed that we were not doing anything that had anything to do with defending anybody. We were trampling on people's land. We were patrolling people's cities that didn't want us. We were basically the enforcers of an occupation over a people that didn't want us to be there.

[00:15:18] And I couldn't understand why we were there. Orders to beat the brains out of anybody who looks at us and they're giving us batons and handcuffs. I'm going, “We're supposed to be like a reconnaissance unit. What the hell are we doing policing at?” And then, I was actually transferred from that unit.

[00:15:34] I was doing something else. And then the last year of my service in 1982, the invasion of Lebanon happened. We were told, the public was told that this was a 40-kilometer incursion to get rid of some, what they call terrorists, you know, Palestinian cells. Well, as they were telling us, it's a 40-kilometer incursions, our friends were telling us they're already in the outskirts of Beirut, which is much more on the outskirts of Beirut. What the hell are we doing in Beirut?

[00:15:58] Jordan Harbinger: How far is that? It's like hundreds of miles, isn't it? Or at least a hundred miles.

[00:16:02] Miko Peled: It’s probably double that. Yeah, it's probably something like that. I mean, it's not hundreds and hundreds of miles, but it's not 40 kilometers, for sure. And why are we in Beirut?

[00:16:09] Why is the Israeli military even approaching an Arab capital? This is big stuff and it made absolutely no sense. And of course, later on, as the news became clear and the politics behind it became clear, it was obvious that the government had lied to everybody and there were heavy, heavy casualties.

[00:16:25] Israeli military suffered very heavy casualties. And then there was resistance growing to this entire escapade. Even my father spoke at protests against the war, anti-war protests. This was the first time there was an anti-war protest while the war was taking place. He was calling on Israeli soldiers to refuse to enter Lebanon, to refuse to serve.

[00:16:44] It was that divisive. It was that severe. But that was the breaking point for a lot of people in my generation that believed and then saw that this was, you know — and then of course there was the massacres in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, which Israel carried an important role. And so that was the beginning of the end.

[00:17:03] Jordan Harbinger: I went down that rabbit hole with Sabra and Shatila, and if anybody wants a little more background on that, it's a very not fun sort of Wikipedia deep dive into something that will shock you. I remember looking that up because when I was in Israel, that was when Ariel Sharon — I was in Jerusalem, the old city with my Jordanian roommate friend.

[00:17:20] Miko Peled: What years were you there?

[00:17:21] Jordan Harbinger: This is 2000. Ariel Sharon went up to the Temple Mount to do something. I don't know, but it just resulted in me going from shopping for a Nargila hookah thing to running away. And we would run into Israeli soldiers, and I'd be like, “Americans,” and they'd be like, “Go that way.”

[00:17:39] And then if we ran into Arab dudes who looked like they maybe were looking for a problem, my Jordanian roommate would just yell in Arabic, “We're Arabs,” and they'd be like, “Get out of here.” So, we just barely made it out of there without getting beat up by somebody. It was just pure chaos. And we were breathing in like, I guess, tear gas, like not when you get gas, but when it's just in the air, it was a mess.

[00:17:59] That was one of the scariest probably 40 minutes runs of my young life at that point. So yeah, that'll put a timestamp on it. The invasion of Lebanon thing and you being in the military at that time, were you just like, “Okay, I'm done. I'm waiting my service out. I'm pulling the plug.” Or was it like, were you able to get out early?

[00:18:18] Miko Peled: Well, I got out a few weeks early. So, what happened was people of my generation that were in the same cycle in terms of being enlisted and were supposed to be released, the invasion began in June. And so, a year later, people's service was extended. They weren't releasing people. And I'm like, “Oh, my God. if they extend my thing, I will lose it.”

[00:18:41] Thankfully, I was supposed to be released the following January and I was actually released in December. For some reason, they said they didn't need people anymore and everybody was released. I was released about [unintelligible] and I never served another day. It worked out okay. But no, the last year I was done, I was checked out.

[00:18:57] I mean, I had to do what I had to do. I mean, I had to function. But had I been asked to go to Lebanon, I would have refused for sure. I wasn’t asked. It was not something I had to do, but it was not easy. The morale was very, very low. Most of the people around me in that particular place that I served, we were like-minded.

[00:19:12] It was terrible. And then to see the officers who were actually responsible for this horrible invasion, of course, Sabra and Shatila was the highlight in terms of the cruelty, but Lebanese were killed. And I mean, there was destruction and there were so many Lebanese refugees, not only Palestinians suffered from this and thousands of Israeli casualties.

[00:19:32] And then to see those who were responsible, not only they were not punished, but eventually they were actually promoted both in the military, and even Sharon, who was found responsible for the massacres and was not allowed to serve as Minister of Defense, he became Minister of Housing, and then he became Minister of Agriculture, which are two extremely important positions in a context of Palestinians.

[00:19:56] Because it's all about land, water, and housing, and these are three issues in which discrimination against Palestinians is severe. And he put in policies in place that were so draconian, probably worse than what he would have done had he been, continued to be Minister of Defense. And of course, 20 years later, when you were there, he was Prime Minister again.

[00:20:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was shocking, because I was like, wait, how is this guy — you can't be the Defense Minister, but you can be the guy who tells the Defense Minister what his policy should be. That didn't make sense to me. And I remember that was another time when I was like, I don't understand the logic of this.

[00:20:29] And that was when I, of course, started learning about Likud and the right-wing Israeli politics. And meeting both left wing and right-wing folks in Israel and Palestinians who are Christian and Palestinians who are Muslim. And it was just like, again, layers upon layers of stuff here. Did your parents at that time also agree with you?

[00:20:49] Were you sort of on the same level as your parents politically when you were thinking like, “Hey, I'm leaving the IDF. This is BS. I'm doing stuff that doesn't make any sense.”

[00:20:57] Miko Peled: Oh, no, of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. We were all on the same page pretty much, yes. I mean, my father was a pretty smart guy, and so the rest of us kind of respected his opinions and his views, and he was 9.9 times out of 10 on these issues, he was right on the money. But it wasn't that I was engaged politically at that point, as much as I am not, I’m certainly not. But I was engaged because I grew up in a family where this was, like my daughter says, it's the family business.

[00:21:25] Jordan Harbinger: Were you studying martial arts at that time? Because I know there's a non-violence streak to most martial arts study as well.

[00:21:34] Miko Peled: Right. I studied martial arts. I started when I was in high school, and I had to stop while I was in the military, and then I couldn't wait to get back. That was my dream to end this thing and get back to training.

[00:21:42] And yes, of course, martial arts, people sometimes like to compare military, the military experience to a martial arts experience. But like you say, martial arts are all about a deeper understanding and how not to use your abilities, how to prevent fighting. And it is basically a pacifist. Martial arts are basically truly a pacifist philosophy. The metaphor is you're supposed to sharpen and shine, and sharpen and shine the sword. But if you use it, you defile it.

[00:22:06] And that's basically the martial arts are. There are no similarities. There's no comparison. There's no place to compare the two at all.

[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: Are you considered left wing in terms of Israeli politics? Where do you fall on this spectrum?

[00:22:21] Miko Peled: I'll tell you a funny story, okay?

[00:22:23] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I'm ready for it.

[00:22:25] Miko Peled: So, this is when my older kids were very young and there were elections. We're sitting around the dinner table and my younger son asks my older son, if we are right wing, left wing, or Democrats, Republicans, something like that. And my older son says, “Well, Republicans are here, Democrats are here, and dad is over there.”

[00:22:48] So yes, of course it's left wing. I mean, I think on this issue, on the issue of Palestine, I think the right wing/left wing thing is not accurate because, right wing/left wing, there's a lot more that's involved. My politics are clearly left-wing politics, but some people say radical, but not because of this particular issue.

[00:23:08] I think this particular issue transcends right/left politics. It's a question of values. You know, if you believe in human rights, if you believe in democracy, if you believe in humanity, if you believe in equality, if you believe in justice, which has nothing to do with right/left or Republican/Democrat, then it's very clear which side you should be on in this particular conversation.

[00:23:28] You cannot support Israel if you believe in justice, freedom, and human rights. Because there's a 75-year history that shows that Israel stands against all of that. You cannot oppose the Palestinians call for justice and humanity and equality, and it doesn't matter if you're right or left. If you believe in those values, then it makes perfect sense to support the Palestinians call for justice, equality, and freedom. So, this goes beyond right/left politics, I think.

[00:23:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, I completely understand that it's a values issue. I think it's well stated.

[00:24:00] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Miko Peled. We'll be right back.

[00:24:05] This episode is sponsored in part by Nutrisense. Our glucose levels play a big role in how we feel and function daily. Jen and I have been using Nutrisense, which is a blood glucose monitor that shows us real time, essentially real time changes in response to things like food, exercise, stress, even medication. So literally, I eat, log my food, and I can use my phone to scan the device on my arm, and it shows my glucose level on the chart. And the insights are pretty cool. You'd think ice cream would spike my glucose, right? No, it was a freaking oat milk latte that got me. And I was taking some medication, and I was like, “Oh, I'll see if this affects my blood sugar.” Well, it spikes it like crazy, and I talked to the doctor about it, and it turns out I'm supposed to be taking it fasted. It did not know that. Also, I've always tracked my meals, but Jen, she doesn't really do that. So that changed when she tried Nutrisense. She saw immediate changes in glucose levels after eating, and it sort of motivating. I know diabetics are laughing at me because it's like, “Welcome to my world.” But the app makes it really a breeze. You snap a pic, you type in the food or whatever, and it finds it for you in the database. And when you start with Nutrisense, they pair you with a board-certified nutritionist for a month. So, you can message your dedicated nutritionist in the app, like a chat app. It's a real human being, not AI. And you can do that at any time. They know what your goals are, they tailor your feedback, they can see what you're eating, they can see your blood sugar. So, during one particular sushi dinner, my nutritionist suggested having more sashimi and protein rather than just sushi rolls with a bunch of rice in order to level out that blood sugar. Did not know that, obviously that totally works and now that's my new habit. Nutrisense has really been a game changer for our food choices, knowing that milk tea boba might spike my glucose, makes me reconsider it for sparkling water instead. I mean, it doesn't always work because I love that ish. But Jen and I have this friendly competition comparing our glucose levels, which is nerdy as hell now that I say it out loud. Nutrisense can be a useful tool for goals such as weight loss, steady energy, sharp thinking, better sleep, and controlling cravings. So, try it out. Visit nutrisense.com/jordan to get $30 off your first month, plus a free month of nutritionist support. nutrisense.com/jordan.

[00:26:05] This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. The holiday season can bring a mix of joy and stress. Between the turkey, the trimmings, and the family dynamics, it's not unusual to feel like you're just one overcooked side dish away from needing a breather. That's where BetterHelp comes in offering a much-needed respite from the holiday whirlwind. BetterHelp is the modern solution to holiday-induced stress. I thought it was ketamine, but whatever. It's online therapy that's accessible right from the comfort of your own home. Perfect for when Thanksgiving preparations or family interactions start to weigh heavy. You can share your triumphs and troubles while lounging in your holiday pajamas. No need to brave the cold or navigate holiday traffic. BetterHelp's online platform is a breeze to use, fitting smoothly into your hectic holiday schedule. With just a simple questionnaire, you're on your way to connecting with a licensed therapist. And if you find that your first match isn't quite right, switching therapist is easy and free of additional charges. BetterHelp is designed to be as flexible as your holiday plans, ensuring you have the support you need to navigate the holiday season and beyond.

[00:26:58] Jen Harbinger: Find your bright spot this season with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:27:07] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I manage to book all these authors, thinkers, creators every week, it is because of the circle of people that I know, like, and trust, otherwise known as a network. I know that word is dirty now. I'm teaching you how to create that same circle for yourself, for free, over at jordanharbinger.com/course. The course is about improving your relationship building skills, inspiring other people to want to develop a relationship with you. The course is, it's not cringey, it's very easy to do, it's not going to make you look like a jerk or the people that you are reaching out to look or feel like jerks. It's going to make you a better friend, a better peer, a better colleague. And it just takes a few minutes a day. Many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:27:48] Now back to Miko Peled.

[00:27:52] Do you feel alienated by Israelis for your opinions on this or Americans and Israelis for that matter? You know, I was looking for people who were counterpoints to other people I've had on the show and your name came up multiple times. And usually, there's just huge lists of people on each side, and it was like, more than one person mentioned your name, and I thought, oh, okay, this guy must be really getting out there.

[00:28:13] But also, while a ton of people support the things that you do and say, it seems like, in your very hometown, there might be a lot of people who are like, “There goes Miko the Traitor! Look at this guy.” Do you feel alone or isolated at all by this?

[00:28:27] Miko Peled: I'm not alone, I'm not isolated. But again, those people, Israelis, who are loyal to the state, to the apartheid and racism are not my people anyway. It's not my community.

[00:28:38] I was supposed to go and visit, I don't call the country Israel, I call it Palestine. I was supposed to go visit, I was going to Jordan for a few days, then I was going to cross the river and go to the other side. And it was made very clear to me that if I crossed to the other side, I would be arrested.

[00:28:50] And who knows how long I'd have to deal with that, so I didn't go. And that was the first, because I traveled there extensively.

[00:28:56] Jordan Harbinger: Just you couldn't go at that time, because they were like, you particularly couldn't go, or nobody can go?

[00:29:01] Miko Peled: No, me particularly. This is after, this is post-October 7th.

[00:29:04] Jordan Harbinger: I see.

[00:29:05] Miko Peled: And so, I opted not to go and not to deal with that. So, yes, of course, Israelis see somebody like me, I mean, all kinds of words, traitors or whatever. I mean, I think it's ridiculous to call somebody like me a traitor because to me, my loyalty is to the values that I espouse. The fact that there happens to be a state that claims that I am part of it or it's part of my identity has got nothing to do with my values.

[00:29:29] If they don't share my values, then there's no loyalty. There's no call for loyalty. But again, I always tell people, I won many more friends than I ever lost. The community that I work within, the Palestinian community, the pro justice community, the pro peace community is far larger and the experiences I've had with people both personally and at work are profound.

[00:29:51] Jordan Harbinger: Can I ask about your niece and her passing?

[00:29:54] Miko Peled: Yeah.

[00:29:55] Jordan Harbinger: Tell me. Tell me about that.

[00:29:56] Miko Peled: So, September 1997, on the 4th of September, this was a time, that summer of 1997, these two years, ‘96, ‘97, ‘98, there was a lot of violence going on. On that particular day, on September the 4th, there was a massive attack by Palestinians, where three young Palestinians blew themselves up and killed a bunch of Israelis in Ben Yehuda Street.

[00:30:18] My sister's little girl, 13-year-old girl, was one of the victims. She was killed. I think the only reason that people ever change dramatically in terms of their thinking, in terms of their ideology, in terms of their beliefs is sadly, it's usually the result of something terrible. It shocks us to the core and forces us to look at things we never thought we needed to look at. And this is precisely that kind of a thing.

[00:30:40] So, I was there, I went back home soundly for a week or so. And then you come home, and you're just lost. I mean, you need to talk to people and there's nobody. You know, on the whole issue of Palestine is not something people are keen to talk about.

[00:30:53] And now particularly you have a story like this that people just don't know how to respond to. But what I did, what happened as a result of this, my search to find somebody to talk to is that I came across the Palestinian community, I was living in San Diego at the time, and this was a very generous and very active community of Palestinians who I began to get involved with and kind of adopted me in a way, in many ways, and mentored me.

[00:31:18] And so that was the experience. I would say the first time I met Palestinians was actually in the United States in San Diego, I was 40 years old. Having grown up in Jerusalem, which is supposedly a mixed city, I never met Palestinians because Israelis live in a bubble, Palestinians live outside of that bubble, and that's the end of it, as you saw when you were there.

[00:31:36] Jordan Harbinger: I lived and met with tons of Palestinians, but I was in university. That's a different bubble, right?

[00:31:41] Miko Peled: You're on campus.

[00:31:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:31:43] Miko Peled: You're on campus, yeah. So anyway, so that was my experience. And then through that encounter with these Palestinians, the conversation was flowing immediately, the memories of where we're from, and so on and so forth.

[00:31:55] And while other Jewish people and Israelis would come and go, because we had these little dialogue groups, they'd go, “Oh, can you sit with these people? They're anti-Semitic. They're liars.” I thought, first of all, they're not anti-Semitic. They're very nice people. And they couldn't all be liars. I mean, they couldn't have all sat together and made up a story, right?

[00:32:09] That was what catapulted me to meeting with Palestinians and learning about the Palestinian story, which then forced me into a life of activism and to really reevaluate everything I believe is true.

[00:32:23] Jordan Harbinger: I heard you speaking Arabic in one of the videos. Do you speak fluent Arabic or pretty fluent?

[00:32:27] Miko Peled: Pretty fluent, yeah.

[00:32:29] Jordan Harbinger: Did you just learn that through conversation with Palestinians or did you —

[00:32:31] Miko Peled: No, no, no, no, no, no. I studied for many years, yeah.

[00:32:33] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like the only way to really learn something like Arabic.

[00:32:37] Miko Peled: Well, you need to do both. You need a combination of both. You need to study, and you also need to converse. You need to know how to talk, which is not always exactly the same as what you learn in the textbook, but yeah.

[00:32:45] Jordan Harbinger: And especially the reading, you hear about Arabic like there's different letters for the beginning of the word, the end of the word, and the middle of the word. I'm like, “Oh man,” and that used to be so intimidating until I started learning Chinese, and now it would kill for any kind of alphabet at all, right? I don’t care how many letters it is.

[00:32:59] Miko Peled: Right, right, right, yes. There's a lot of similarities to Hebrews. I mean, from Hebrew to Arabic or Arabic to Hebrew, a lot of similarities.

[00:33:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's an advantage I hadn't thought of. I've heard you say, and don't let me put words in your mouth, I'm just asking you to clarify your position here.

[00:33:12] I heard you say Hamas isn't a terrorist group or more specifically that October 7th wasn't a terror attack. And again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Am I accurate with that or did I misunderstand you?

[00:33:22] Miko Peled: No, you didn't misunderstand me. That's exactly what I said. I don't believe the Palestinians are terrorists.

[00:33:26] I don't believe the Palestinian resistance is terrorism. I think it's wrong to categorize it as terrorism. It's simplistic, it's superficial, and it's not true. And as a result of that, I don't think what Palestinians do when they resist are acts of terrorism. I think that the State of Israel has been engaged in terrorism since before it was even established.

[00:33:45] The Zionist movement in Palestine had brought terrorism to Palestine. There's no such thing as terrorism before the Zionists came and started killing people. And so, when people are governed by this ruthless regime, apartheid state, which by the way, if anybody has a problem with the word apartheid, Amnesty International came out with a report last year that explains very well why the State of Israel is being accused of apartheid.

[00:34:12] And so when you have this very ruthless, I would say even savage apartheid regime that is treating Palestinians in this particular way, and the Palestinians stand up, a nation that's never had a military force, they've never had a tank or warplane, and they stand up and resist, that's resistance. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is what the State of Israel is doing.

[00:34:32] Jordan Harbinger: In the book, there's a part where you say, “Hey, harming civilians makes no sense. If you harm the military, then you're harming the state.” Harming civilian, I think you said something like, “What's the point of harming civilians?” I think this is actually not the book, the Vimeo trailer that you sent me.

[00:34:46] So then when we talk about the Hamas attack on October 7th, it seems like you have a different opinion. So, has your opinion shifted since that was filmed or do you consider all Israelis combatants or is there something else going on there?

[00:34:57] Miko Peled: The passage you're referring to is in the book, but it wasn't me saying it. It was Abu Ali Shaheen who was a leader in the Palestinian resistance for many, many years and he was captured and spent almost 20 years in solitary. He was a very important or very charismatic leader. I met him, the book was already done, but then I met him, and I added the chapter about him because he was such an important figure.

[00:35:19] And he says that, that as a commander of the Palestinian resistance, that was his perspective. Now the problem is that Israel has been inflicting so much violence against Palestinian citizens. Because really, all Palestinians are citizens. They've never had a military force. They've had the resistance cells, they've had guerrilla groups, but never had a military.

[00:35:39] So, Palestinians are all civilians. And when Israel goes into Gaza and kills thousands as they've been doing for many years, this is not the first time, then they're killing civilians. Which is a terrible thing, either way. Now, the thing is this. If the power that initiates the violence wants to end the violence, it has the power to do so.

[00:36:01] You can't come to the people on the receiving end and say, “Well, you don't have a right to do what we do. You don't have a right to kill civilians. We have a right to kill civilians, but you don't.” And as a matter of fact, in my other book, in Injustice, I mentioned this. When the founder of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was a paraplegic, an old paraplegic, he was in Israeli jail right around the ‘90s, while it was this period of violence that I was describing.

[00:36:24] And at one point, the Israelis came to him and said, “Would you tell your people to stop targeting civilians?” Because buses were being blown up and all this. And he said, “I'm willing to sign an agreement right now where both sides promise to refrain from targeting civilians.” They never came back.

[00:36:43] The Israelis never came back. Because if they're going to kill Palestinians, they have to kill civilians because there's no military. The reasoning behind Israel's massive attack against civilians is revenge, is punitive, is to try to teach him a lesson not to raise their heads, which of course, all three have failed.

[00:37:02] And so, it's not that I changed my mind about killing civilians. Killing anyone is terrible. Everybody has a mother and a father, or a child. Can you imagine that? It's a horrifying thing. But we can't come and demand one thing from the victim and demand a different thing from the side that perpetrated these enormous amounts of violence.

[00:37:19] I mean, and think about it for the last 75 years, the State of Israel was established after a massive, a massive assault against Palestinian civilians, where almost a million people were forced out of their homes. We don't even know how many were massacred because the massacres are still being unraveled today and being revealed today of things that we didn't know, and there were countless massacres.

[00:37:37] So then say, “Yeah, well, we're going to not talk about that.” But why are they killing civilians? That doesn't fly. That doesn't work. We should stop killing all civilians. We should, by all means, allow the refugees to return. We need to dismantle the apartheid state and we need to let Israelis and Palestinians live together in peace. Absolutely, so nobody gets killed anymore. That should be the goal.

[00:37:59] Jordan Harbinger: I think you covered this a little bit, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because I'm trying to stave off the 10,000 emails, I'm going to get from people saying, “You let him say this without pushing back.” So, what happened on October 7th in your view?

[00:38:11] Because it seems like in some ways, and I'm not sure about this, because again, I think you covered it. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but it seems like some people are going to say, “Hey, he's dehumanizing or shrugging off Israeli casualties in the exact same way that he's accusing a lot of people of shrugging off Palestinian casualties.”

[00:38:27] And I'm not sure that's what I'm hearing, but I think a lot of people are going to hear that. I'm sure you hear that all the time.

[00:38:33] Miko Peled: What we do know on October 7th is we know that Palestinian fighters came out of the Gaza Strip, one of the poorest and most oppressed places on earth. They came by air, they came by sea, they came by land, and they managed to basically occupy half of historic Palestine.

[00:38:47] The entire southern half of the country was taken by them, including a massively important, large military base, which is the base of the Gaza Brigade. I believe they captured the general in charge. This is a massive humiliation for the Israeli military, which once again proved itself that when it's being challenged and surprised, it's useless.

[00:39:07] Now, there are many casualties as a result of that immediately, Israeli casualties. We don't know for sure what happened. We do know this, and this is according to Israeli sources. According to witnesses, we know that Israeli tanks were shelling homes where hostages were held. So, we know that many Israelis were killed by the military right there and then.

[00:39:26] We know that the very first hours, the very first response was from helicopters, military helicopters that came. And we know now because there have been several articles in the Israeli papers about this that they could not differentiate between the Palestinians and the Israeli civilians. And so, they killed both.

[00:39:42] So nobody knows who killed how many Israelis. We know that there's a large number of Israelis that were killed. We don't know what happened, that has not yet been investigated. So, we don't know. The only thing we do know is that many were killed by Israeli fire. How many were killed by Palestinians, if at all, we don't know.

[00:39:57] That's not yet been revealed. That's not been told. We also know for sure that for a very long time, Israel has been massacring civilians long before October the 7th in the Gaza Strip, in the West Bank, in other parts of Palestine, in Lebanon, and so on, on a regular basis. We're talking about thousands of civilians being massacred or being killed.

[00:40:19] We do know, I did this debate yesterday with some former British minister and they talk, all these rumors about babies being burned and that sort of thing. Now that's been refuted, so we know that's not true immediately although nobody wants to get to the gory details. When a 1-ton bomb or a half-ton bomb falls on a city block full of civilians with children, do we really want to get into the gory details of what happens to these little bodies of the children?

[00:40:48] Today, we know that there are thousands of children missing, which they’re under the rubble. We don’t know if they’re alive of dead, which is even worse than thinking that they’re dead. You know what I mean?

[00:40:58] Jordan Harbinger: It’s a safe assumption that they died horribly, I think, at this point.

[00:41:01] Miko Peled: Exactly. If we want to get into the nitty gritty of the horrors of war, by all means. But I think the Israelis are going to lose this conversation, which takes me back to what I said earlier.

[00:41:10] Let's end it. This is an opportunity to end it. October 7th was a major, a watershed moment or it can be a watershed moment to end this for good, to demand a political solution that will end this for good. The state of Israel is still paralyzed. It was paralyzed for a very long time. Nothing was working.

[00:41:27] Now, they're gaining a little bit. I was talking to a friend today. The State of Israel is paralyzed. And this is again from a small group of fighters that came out of one of the poorest, most oppressed places on earth. And so, this big democracy with this massive military force that's supposed to be so capable, were completely — this is a moment in history that can be used in order to bring about something positive out of this terrible sacrifice of all the suffering.

[00:41:52] The question is, is anybody sitting there at the table that has got that kind of vision? And I don't see that, unfortunately. Not yet at least.

[00:41:58] Jordan Harbinger: I have questions about that if we have time later in the show, because I agree. I'm like, who's doing this? It's not Netanyahu, who most likely has diverted so many resources from protecting Israel to push into settlements that this was allowed to happen in the first place.

[00:42:12] And then there's the conspiracy theory part of the spectrum where it's like they knew, and they let it happen so that it was an excuse to invade. I don't really know. I mean, nobody really can tell you whether or not that's accurate, but it's just such a mess. Like the fact that that's even being floated.

[00:42:27] Miko Peled: It's not accurate. The only reason it's being floated, it's like those rumors about killing babies and raping women, the only reason it's being floated is in order to discredit the capabilities of the Palestinians. So, if Palestinians do something, then it's a crazy mob that burns babies and rapes women.

[00:42:42] And if they succeeded in something, it's because Israel was pulling the strings. Because Palestinians are Arabs, and Arabs are incapable of being successful in anything.

[00:42:50] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I see.

[00:42:51] Miko Peled: Unless there's somebody like Israel who's pulling the string because they control everything.

[00:42:55] Jordan Harbinger: It’s like bigotry of low expectations, or whatever it's called.

[00:42:58] Miko Peled: Exactly.

[00:42:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is a loaded question, but I'm going to do it anyway. Would you consider yourself pro Hamas or more pro Palestine? And is there a meaningful difference here?

[00:43:08] Miko Peled: I don't think there's a meaningful difference. I don't care if these guys are Hamas or some other group. I don't think it matters.

[00:43:13] These are Palestinians who came out to fight for their people, to fight for their nation, to fight for their freedom. You think if there was no Hamas, there wouldn't be somebody else? There'd be somebody else. That's not the issue. I don't care what affiliate, who they're affiliated with. I don't think it matters to any Palestinians who they're affiliated with.

[00:43:27] These are Palestinian fighters who came and are fighting for the liberation and the freedom of their people. That's the bottom line. And again, I think framing it as pro-Palestinian or not pro-Palestinian is a little misleading or very misleading because once again, supporting the cause of the Palestinian call for justice and freedom ultimately will lead to the possibility of peace between Israelis and Palestinians, because at the end of the sentence is, “A free Palestine from the river to the sea with equal rights, free democratic states on all historic Palestine with equal rights, where Israelis and Palestinians can live together.”

[00:44:04] Supporting the other side, supporting Israel means supporting what we're seeing now, this state that has been accused by Amnesty International of a crime of apartheid, which is a crime against humanity. And the kind of vicious violence that we're seeing now against civilians in Gaza, we've been seeing really, Palestinians have been living a life of terror for 75 years, every single day for 75 years since Israel was established.

[00:44:27] So, this is the choice. It's not pro Palestine, pro-Israel. It's pro freedom, pro equality, pro justice, or pro violence and racism. These are the choices.

[00:44:40] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Miko Peled. We'll be right back.

[00:44:45] This episode is sponsored in part by Eight Sleep. I'm huge on sleep optimization. It affects my work, my mood, and also if you've listened to Episode 126 with Matthew Walker, you'll have heard him say, “The shorter you sleep, the shorter your life,” which does not bode well for us parents of young kids. If you want to optimize your sleep, try out the pod cover by Eight Sleep. We've had this for over six years. Can't live without this thing. The pod cover can fit on any mattress, snug like a fitted sheet. We have ours set to turn on at a certain time, so it's pre warmed or precooled, to your specifications right before bedtime. It can even wake you up at a certain time with a gentle vibration. It's got dual zone temperature adjustments plus other smart features like sleep and health tracking. Wake up to a personalized sleep report for you each morning that offers insights on how certain behaviors like late night exercise or caffeine, or in our case two freaking toddlers kicking you, you'll find out how that impacts your sleep and your overall health. Still unconvinced? Give it a whirl with their 30-day no strings attached return policy. It's not a holiday miracle, even though it sounds like one. If better sleep is on your wish list, look no further than the pod cover. Go to eightsleep.com/jordan for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of night. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. One last time, that's eightsleep.com/jordan.

[00:45:56] This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. Hey listeners, whether you love true crime or comedies, celebrity interviews, news, or even motivational speakers, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue, right? And guess what? Now you can call the shots with your auto insurance, too. Enter the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. The Name Your Price tool puts you in charge of your auto insurance by working just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance, they'll show you a variety of coverages that'll fit within your budget, giving you options. Now that's something you're going to want to press play on. It's easy to start a quote and you'll be able to choose the best option for you fast. It's just one of the many ways you can save with Progressive Insurance. Quote today at progressive.com to try the Name Your Price tool for yourself and join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law.

[00:46:40] Hey, if you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Thank you for supporting those who support the show, even when you disagree with the guest.

[00:46:57] Now for the rest of my conversation with Miko Peled.

[00:47:02] So tell us what, “from the river to the sea” actually means because some people are like, “Oh, it just means everyone should live together democratically and live happily ever after.”

[00:47:09] And other people are like, “No, it means get rid of all the Jews.” And I'm like, eh, so much bad faith online. It's like you don't even — what do you think, what does it mean? When you say it, what does it mean?

[00:47:19] Miko Peled: Well, I know what it means when I say it, I know what it means when Palestinians say it, and when people that I work with say it, and I know what it means. What it means, it's very simple.

[00:47:26] “From the river to the sea” refers to all of historic Palestine. So, on the east it's the River Jordan, on the west it's the Mediterranean, in the north it's the borders with Lebanon and Syria, in the south it's the Gulf of Aqaba, and the border is with Egypt. It's very clearly defined. Every single map you look at before 1948, that region is called Palestine going back thousands of years.

[00:47:46] And so “from the river to the sea” means freedom over all of historic Palestine, freedom from apartheid, freedom from checkpoints, freedom from violence, freedom from racism, where, like I said earlier, the possibility of Israelis and Palestinians living together in peace becomes a reality. That's how you make it a reality.

[00:48:05] It's the only way that you can make it a reality. It's like white South Africans and black South Africans couldn't possibly live in peace under apartheid. Israelis and Palestinians can't possibly live in peace under a regime where I have privilege over my Palestinian friends. It's never going to happen. There's no possibility of it ever happening.

[00:48:24] Jordan Harbinger: I think people are afraid that Israel might start to look like South Africa after the fact because the country is not in good shape right now. Now the reasons for that are different than, “Oh, they integrated.” I want to be very clear.

[00:48:36] Miko Peled: Yeah, it’s very different. Well, I mean, South Africa had what 40, 50 million Africans who never had the opportunity to go to school.

[00:48:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:48:42] Miko Peled: Or impoverished, a vast majority. Israeli and Palestinian societies are highly educated societies. Israeli and Palestinian societies can go to work. If tomorrow morning the apartheid regime fell, you had elections, and you had a free, democratic state with equal rights, it would be a flourishing, functioning democracy immediately.

[00:48:59] You got people waiting in Gaza. I talk about Gaza now. I just think of all the people I know that have been killed and their families, but you know, Gaza has I think one of the largest PhD per capita in the world. We're talking about very highly educated, very productive societies that can go to work the next day. We're not talking about just beginning to educate millions and millions of people.

[00:49:21] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Some people might say, hey, though, democracy in the Middle East, that's a fairy tale. No other state in the area has a democracy. Even Hamas and Fatah haven't had elections in a decade or more. What do you say to that?

[00:49:33] Miko Peled: I say it's nonsense.

[00:49:34] It's racism and it's nonsense. The state of Israel is certainly not a democracy. It's never been a democracy. It's been an apartheid state from the very beginning. It was a democracy for people like myself. But we are now less than half of the population. So that's not considered a democracy. But the reasons that so many other countries in the region don't have democracies is because there are greater powers that are preventing them.

[00:49:54] There's more interest in arming dictators and keeping them in power so that their foreign policy would be aligned with the US and the Europeans, and so on. But Palestinians and Israelis actually have had traditions of democracy going back a very long time, ever since their political lives were these political entities existed. There are democracies, and there's no reason to expect it wouldn't be a democracy.

[00:50:17] And again, we're not talking about a country where you place a king and you say, “Okay, he's the ruler, we're going to arm him. We're going to send him a lot of money and we're going to make sure there's no democracy,” which is what happened in a lot of countries in the region. Palestine is not like that.

[00:50:30] It's a completely different reality. It's a completely different character of the people, the character of the country. It always has been.

[00:50:36] Jordan Harbinger: What do you say to the Israelis who say, “Well, if we let them do this, they're just going to wipe out all the Jews and take our stuff,” which is what happened to them earlier.

[00:50:47] A lot of people are afraid of that, right? They feel like, even if they agree with you, they're like, “I still don't want to get exterminated by the Palestinians coming back to Jerusalem, where I live now.”

[00:50:57] Miko Peled: I don't know what in the world makes them say that. I mean, there's no history to that. There's no reason to expect that.

[00:51:02] Why would anybody say, I don't know why anybody would think that. The history of Jews in Arab countries is the history of coexistence.

[00:51:09] Jordan Harbinger: Even in Palestine and being expelled in pogroms. I mean, come on, we gotta be fair.

[00:51:14] Miko Peled: Not in the Arab world. Not in the Arab world.

[00:51:16] Jordan Harbinger: Really?

[00:51:17] Miko Peled: Not in the Arab world.

[00:51:18] This is the experience of Jews in Europe. This has never been the experience that I would — I highly recommend you read a book. Where is it? I have it here.

[00:51:24] Jordan Harbinger: I will.

[00:51:25] Miko Peled: By Israeli historian Avi Shlaim. It's called the Three Identities: The Memoirs of an Arab-Jew. He is from Iraq, and he talks about the Iraqi community and what it was like for them, for Jews in Baghdad.

[00:51:35] This is not the experience of Jews in the Arab world. And if you listen to, you know, there were Jewish communities in Jerusalem, in Hebron, in the North, in Tiberias, in Safed, and so on. And they lived in harmony. They've always lived in harmony. They always lived well together. They shared the same values.

[00:51:52] They babysat each other's children. I mean, the relations between Jews and Arabs, even in Palestine, was very, very good until the Zionists came. And the same thing happened in Iraq. The same thing happened in Syria. The same thing happened in all of North Africa. Jews lived very well in the Arab world. The Arab world welcomed Jews, and when Jews were escaping from Europe, the Arab world is where they came, to find protection.

[00:52:10] But that was not the experience, and what the Zionists are doing now, what Israel is doing now, they're perpetuating this revisionist history that says that the Jews in the Arab world, there were pogroms, they were kicked out, none of this is true. This is absolutely not true. This is absolutely not true.

[00:52:25] Jordan Harbinger: That's what I've been reading, right, is like, oh, well, all the Arabic Jews from Iraq and Morocco, et cetera, had to leave because of —

[00:52:31] Miko Peled: They didn't want to leave. They didn't want to leave.

[00:52:34] Jordan Harbinger: Well, right.

[00:52:35] Miko Peled: None of them wanted to leave, and there are particular stories on it. We don't have time to get into it now.

[00:52:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:52:39] Miko Peled: But the particular stories of each and every country and what happened and why they end up leaving are tragic stories. And the people regret leaving because they were there for generations. The culture of Arab Jews was a very rich and distinct culture, and it was respected by the countries in which they lived. Again, including Palestine.

[00:52:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, that's definitely contrary to some of the things that I've been learning and reading about. I need you to send me that book title at some point, because I just tried to Google it, and I got a bunch of math books. Three Identities is not specific enough, I guess.

[00:53:09] Miko Peled: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew. His name is Avi Shlaim. A-V-I-S-H-L-A-I-M.

[00:53:14] Jordan Harbinger: Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab. That's why. Yeah, I was like —

[00:53:18] Miko Peled: Sorry, yeah.

[00:53:19] Jordan Harbinger: It was trying to show me order of operations in Calculus and I got PTSD flashbacks.

[00:53:23] Miko Peled: It’s not only a very important story and it was written a lot about the Middle East, but his own family story as having left Iraq and what it was like for them in Baghdad and the entire Jewish community, and the entire story of Arab-Jews in general, and what happened to them when they came to Israel and how they were treated by the community of Israelis that already existed by the Zionists. It's a very important lesson.

[00:53:43] Jordan Harbinger: In the time that we have left, I'd love to talk about how we find a solution here. One that works not only for Palestinians — not just for Israelis, but for Palestinians as well. I guess you can say both in either order, but one seems more apropos to this conversation.

[00:53:57] What is the compromise though? And what do you see is the role of the US/the West in general in this conflict? Because I am seeing a lot of parallels between how the US acted post 9/11 from Israel. I think many would agree that we overreacted and that did not work well for us in the long term.

[00:54:13] And it seems like Israel's falling into the same trap. Even Joe Biden is warning Israel against falling into this exact trap that it seems like they have fallen into.

[00:54:21] Miko Peled: As he sends the more money and weapons.

[00:54:24] Jordan Harbinger: Well.

[00:54:25] Miko Peled: So, there are no secrets on how this ends. There are only two options. One is a short-sighted, short-lived option, which is the continuation of the apartheid state, the continuation of the oppression and the killing of Palestinians.

[00:54:38] That is short lived and short sighted. There are about 12 million, 12 and a half million people living between the river and the sea, within historic Palestine. Seven million of them or seven-and-a-half million are Palestinians. And they're going to be a bigger majority because traditionally they have more children, anyway.

[00:54:53] So, they're going to be a larger majority. This minority of racist society that is governing through an apartheid regime can only last so long. I think it's inevitable, it's going to collapse. It's short sighted, it's racist, it's violent, and it's going to be short lived. The other option is, I believe, the preferred option, and the option that anybody who has a conscience, and a heart and values need to espouse is the possibility of a free Palestine.

[00:55:21] Post apartheid, the dismantling of the apartheid state, just like it was done in South Africa, through a lot of pressure, through severe sanctions, through boycotts, through severe divestment. You know, South Africa, people forget, controlled all of Southern Africa, all the way up to Angola. It had gold and uranium, and a great deal of resources.

[00:55:39] It was a very rich country, and people in America did not want to end it. People in banks and corporations, the people who were doing business with apartheid in the American administrations also did not want to fight it. But it fell. And so, I believe that through, again, sanctions and boycotts and whatever it takes, the apartheid regime in Palestine needs to be brought down to its knees.

[00:56:01] It needs to be dismantled and replaced with a real democracy, a free democratic Palestine from river to the sea with equal rights. Now that's base camp. Now we're starting to work. Now we're starting to figure out how we do this. Now you got to figure out how Israelis and Palestinians can function together in a single political entity, in a single new state that has never existed before.

[00:56:24] There's never been a state where Israelis and Palestinians, there's never been a situation or even a moment where Israelis and Palestinians will live as equals or function as equals in Palestine. And so now, we're starting to build this thing and I don't think it's impossible to build because I think at the end of the day, even with all the animosity and the violence, the history of violence and so on, people want to move on.

[00:56:44] People want to get on with their life. They want to raise their kids. They want to go to work. And like I said earlier, this democracy with equal rights, and again, these two highly educated communities, highly educated societies that are ready to go to work the next day will be able to function as an excellent, very productive democracy the next day.

[00:57:04] Now, will there be people who will try to stop it? Will there be people who pick up a gun and try to fight it? Of course, a minority. There will be a minority who will die trying. Well, that's the way it is. If they choose to pick up a gun and kill somebody, they'll have to pay the consequences. But hopefully the rule of law will prevail, as it usually does in the end. And we've seen dictatorships in Latin America fall and be turned into democracies. We saw —

[00:57:28] Jordan Harbinger: Can you give an example of a Latin America? I'm drawing a blank.

[00:57:31] Miko Peled: All of Latin America.

[00:57:32] Jordan Harbinger: All of Latin America?

[00:57:33] Miko Peled: Chile, Argentina, Pinochet, all of these. I mean, eventually they fell and turned into democracies. And again, South Africa and others. There are other examples.

[00:57:40] So, the possibility of replacing a totalitarian, racist regime into a democracy exists. Now the role of the US in this is extremely important because obviously, the US provides a lot of funding and a lot of weapons and diplomatic cover, which is maybe even more important. This is our problem as taxpayers, that our money is going to support violence and racism as opposed to using our money to build schools and provide clean water and provide all the things that people need here in this country.

[00:58:13] Why is our tax money going there without us even being asked? And the responsibility that we have is to demand of our elected officials. And it starts at the level of, of people running for school board and city council and state legislatures, because it starts there, and we need to demand that they stop sending money.

[00:58:31] They stop going on junkets, that they stop supporting and promoting themselves as Zionists. If we believe in zero tolerance to racism, Zionism should not have a room anywhere because it's a racist ideology. We need to be consistent about that as voters and as consumers of the media.

[00:58:48] Because when Bill Maher or Jordan Peterson interviewed Netanyahu and gave him a platform to spew these absurd lies, these absurd lies that justify his violence and his racism and don't challenge him at all, we as consumers of this media need to challenge him and say, “What are you doing giving him a platform like that?”

[00:59:06] They don't even ask him about his being indicted. I mean, yeah, we need to step up because we are complicit because it's our money.

[00:59:14] Jordan Harbinger: It's funny you mentioned the Netanyahu interviews because I think I saw a headline, I want to say it was in Haaretz or something, an Israeli newspaper where the headline was if Netanyahu gives you an interview, it's because he thinks you're an idiot. And it's because it's like, he'll only go on a show where he can just uncheck, say whatever he wants, which is unfortunately true for a lot of politicians. But look, Israel's moved quite far to the right compared to where it was when I was there.

[00:59:37] At the time, I think it was Ehud Barak who was in charge of things. And it seems like there's no credible path to peace with somebody like Netanyahu and the Likud party, so the Israeli right-wing party, in power over there. That seems like that has to change before we see any progress at all.

[00:59:52] Miko Peled: No, I don't think so.

[00:59:53] Jordan Harbinger: You don't think so?

[00:59:54] Miko Peled: No, because the entire Zionist project is a racist project. It doesn't matter who the prime minister is. Ehud Barak was no less responsible for what we're seeing today than Netanyahu is. It is one building on the other building on the other. It was the same policies that led to this. I don't think it matters who the prime minister is.

[01:00:09] I mean, de Klerk who was the president of South Africa when apartheid collapsed was not a particularly tolerant person. He just happened to be the guy at the moment that it collapsed. And it could be Netanyahu when apartheid collapses, it doesn't really matter. It's not going to happen because Israeli society and Israeli politics go right or left.

[01:00:26] It's going to happen because they are forced onto their knees. A racist society and a racist state will only cede power when they're absolutely forced to. South Africa had nowhere to go. The boycotts, the sanctions were killing them. The divestment was killing them. They could not travel. They could not play sports.

[01:00:44] They could not participate in any sporting, academic, cultural, diplomatic, political events. You would be penalized if you invited a South African team to a sporting event as an international body. It was that severe. That is what's going to bring about the change. It's not going to be a particular Israeli prime minister.

[01:01:00] It's going to be a few of the pressure from the outside. And sadly, even the Palestinians within Palestine who are spitting blood and spilling blood and doing everything they can, they are like prisoners in a maximum-security prison. Their ability to bring about change is very limited. We are the ones that can bring about a bright future to Israelis and Palestinians. If we pull our support from this idea of Israel to the idea of peace and justice and so forth.

[01:01:28] Jordan Harbinger: Well, it seems like big strides between Israel and Palestinians in terms of the peace process have actually always happened after big violent clashes. So maybe there's room for optimism here. And I know Obama used to say, “We can't want peace more than they do,” which sounds catchy, but I think is kind of wrong.

[01:01:43] I think once great powers are drawn into the conflict because it flares up like this, this is actually the type of attention and dedication of resources that are going to be required to get anywhere because we do need Turkey, Egypt, the US, Jordan, China, the EU, and other powers, regional and global, to actually focus on this or we're just going to keep watching this movie over and over again for 200 more years.

[01:02:05] Do you agree with that assessment at all?

[01:02:07] Miko Peled: Well, I think all of the parties that you mentioned need to join, need to kick out the Israeli ambassadors like some of them already have. They need to, the South Africans have, some of the Latin American countries have, they need to pull back their ambassadors from Tel Aviv.

[01:02:20] They need to end all ties with the State of Israel. All trade, all diplomatic ties, all trade ties, any ties, and the State of Israel has to become a pariah. Without that happening, I agree, nothing's going to change. So, the kind of intervention that we need to see, both from the US, the Europeans, Turkey, the Arab world, and so on, it is a total disconnect with the State of Israel so that it is forced to agree to have peace, to the peace and justice that we're talking about.

[01:02:47] You know, I was in Turkey and Turkey is very, you know, many times, but I was there on a speaking tour and my book came out in Turkish. And so, they say, “What do you think about Erdogan, he speaks about Palestine. He's very pro-Palestinian.” I said, “Yes, that's excellent.” But Turkey is still doing business with Israel, trade with Israel, billions of dollars’ worth.

[01:03:06] It doesn't matter what the president says or doesn't say. What matters is what actually takes place in terms of trade, in terms of commerce, in terms of the diplomatic relations. When that ends, that's when we're going to see change.

[01:03:17] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for humoring this somewhat contentious bit of the conversation.

[01:03:21] I mean, look, there's stuff I don't agree with you on, but it is so nice to talk to somebody who I don't necessarily agree with, who also argues in good faith. Man, it's so rare. So, I want to take just a second and express my appreciation for that, because it seems like —

[01:03:35] Miko Peled: My pleasure.

[01:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: You can't have these conversations without somebody just making some ish up and pulling it out of thin air, and then getting mad at you.

[01:03:42] It's just nice to not deal with that. So, thank you very much.

[01:03:46] Miko Peled: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

[01:03:50] Jordan Harbinger: Here's a glimpse of my interview with the son of a Hamas co-founder before a change of heart had him working undercover for Israeli intelligence against his former friends and family to thwart terrorist plots and save lives. Check it out.

[01:04:07] Mosab Hassan Yousef: Hamas is an Islamic movement. My father is one of the founding members of Hamas. Hamas, for us, was everything to the point where it became an army. It's a monster. I agreed to work with Israel, with a hidden agenda to be a double agent. The level of pressure that I had to go through, my heart stopped for approximately 30 seconds.

[01:04:29] Most human beings cannot make it back. I was tortured mentally and physically. Everybody in the city knew that I'm a dead man.

[01:04:40] Jordan Harbinger: For more, including what it was like growing up in one of the first families of which many consider a terrorist group, and why Mosab considers it the greatest school of his life, check out Episode 407 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:04:55] Okay, so there's a lot here that I've got to address. First things first, great conversation, really enjoyed Miko coming in here. I think there was a lot of stuff that really opened my eyes, a lot of points that I had to Google, and be like, “That's not right.” A lot of rabbit holes I went down that turned out to be really shocking and surprising that moved my opinion a little bit.

[01:05:16] I will also say that regarding the IDF killing a bunch of people on October 7th, that's sort of this Hamas apologist argument. Look. Let's assume that the IDF did kill a bunch of Israeli civilians in the crossfire. Let's assume that that's true. We actually don't know yet whether that's true. We might never know.

[01:05:33] Let's assume though that it's true, for the sake of steelmanning this argument. That is extremely tragic, and it is awful. Usually, though, let's say somebody attacks something here in the United States. Let's say a shooter goes into a school. If the cops accidentally kill some of the school kids when rescuing them, we are very angry at the police.

[01:05:51] But in the end, it is the person who went in and shot up and took hostages at a school that is to blame. What I'm saying here is, what I'm getting at is, if we're arguing that Hamas only wanted to take hostages, that's what people are saying, “Oh, they just wanted to take hostages. They didn't want to kill anyone. It was the IDF and the crossfire that ended up killing people.”

[01:06:08] If they wanted to take hostages, but they ended up killing a bunch of people, and the IDF then ended up killing a bunch of other people in the process, that is still on Hamas. That is not on the people defending Israel, defending Israelis from being kidnapped by Hamas.

[01:06:21] You have to agree with me on that, folks. Come on. His greater point also stands, which is that there are way too many civilian deaths on both sides, and especially on the Palestinian side. So, his point stands there about civilian deaths, but I really think it's a stretch to say, “Well, it's the IDF's fault that all those people died.”

[01:06:39] Not really. Not when you have armed groups. Plus, they filmed it. They live streamed themselves doing this. We can't be like, “Oh, they didn't do that. They didn't.” They filmed themselves doing it. This was live streamed, for God's sake. Hamas is a jihadist, almost fascist seeming entity, which rules by force.

[01:06:57] It crushes all political dissenters in Gaza by killing, maiming, or torturing them, or by threatening their families to do the same thing to their families. Their rampage in Israel was only an extension of what they do to Palestinians every day. And I know this from talking to Hamas supporters inside Gaza and in the United States as well, and talking to people who know about this conflict on both sides.

[01:07:17] I spoke with people who were in Hamas about this in years past, and I went to the Gaza Strip and spoke to people who worked with the Palestinian Authority and with Hamas, and they told me this. This is what they told me in casual conversation, okay? Hamas is in no way equivalent to Israel's extreme right government, which is also gross.

[01:07:38] And that government has also totally discredited itself with the electorate. Netanyahu has lost his majority coalition when the next elections are called. He is toast. He is politically dead. He will probably face trial for corruption. He will probably, hopefully go to jail. He's a dog chasing a car pretending that he has scared that car away. That's Netanyahu right now.

[01:08:00] But my point is, he will be held accountable. So, okay, when does Hamas get held accountable? Again, not just for what they did to Israel, for what they're doing to Palestinians as well. I am waiting for somebody to tell me when Hamas will be held accountable.

[01:08:15] My guess is, is they can't be held accountable by anybody in Palestine, right? Israel, unfortunately, is in the position of having to do that. Why won't they be held accountable by Palestinians? Well, I have a couple of thoughts on that. By the way, Hamas could stop the war right now, immediately. Why don't Palestinian civilians insist they do so?

[01:08:33] “Jordan, that's unfair. How can you say that?” I'm with you. Hold on. It's because they're afraid of Hamas. Why are Palestinians afraid of Hamas? Because Hamas is a terrorist organization. They rule by force, and they torture and kill people that disagree with them. Okay? I don't understand why I have to argue this point with people.

[01:08:52] It really is shocking to me that I'm forced to make this argument. I know people are going to go, “Oh, you're just saying that everyone who's pro Palestine is pro Hamas.” I'm not saying that. There are actually a ton of pro Hamas people. They're in my inbox, they're in my Instagram DMs. These are not robots, these are not people from the Middle East, these are people from the United States who run some crappy fitness studio in Minnesota, or whatever.

[01:09:15] People, please realize these comments are not anti-Palestinian, they're anti Hamas. There is a huge difference between those two things. I, for the record, 100 percent agree that Palestinians deserve equal rights. But that cannot happen as long as a criminal/terrorist/fascist whatever entity remains in power in Gaza.

[01:09:36] They have to be disemboweled, their infrastructure has to be destroyed, their weapons have to be taken away, and their ability to harm civilians on either side of the fence has to be removed. Of course, I wish there was a way to do this without any collateral damage. But I think we've all seen enough war to know that this simply isn't within the realm of possibility.

[01:09:57] It's one of the greatest injustices and tragedies of our time. That much is certain. Note that any time that there's been any advancement towards peace, Hamas has intervened against it. I know there was some anecdote like, “Well, they asked this guy if he would sign an agreement right now.” No, Hamas has intervened against peace multiple times.

[01:10:14] It's not like Hamas actually wants peace. They don't want peace. That's why they did the October 7th thing in the first place. They knew Israel would respond and probably swing for the fences like they're doing now. Huh! Okay, I need to calm down. Now, another point, when I said that there was mistreatment of Jews in the Middle East in Muslim countries, Miko then said, “Not in Arab states!”

[01:10:33] And I think he said it like four times, which means he really meant it, right? That just turns out to not be the case. Now, maybe I misunderstood what he was trying to tell me. I did reach out for clarification on that. Many, many, many Jews that lived in other Middle Eastern countries were pushed out of those countries.

[01:10:52] It was about a million, maybe more, depending on how you and where you get your numbers. Wikipedia says 900,000. Some might say they were pushed out because the State of Israel was established. But that sort of proves my point, I think, and not his, that Jews were mistreated in the Middle East by majority Muslim nations.

[01:11:09] If a Muslim country pops up in South America or whatever, and other countries in the area or in other parts of the world respond by kicking all the Muslims out of the places where they live, that is not a justifiable response to Paraguay deciding that they were suddenly a Muslim country, or whatever.

[01:11:26] You would never tolerate this excuse if the tables were turned, and that's why it doesn't sit right with me. Now again, maybe I've missed a point, maybe I've just misunderstood him somehow here. I do plan on picking up the book that he recommended for me, because I think that stuff is interesting. And there's a lot to be said for, there's these Baghdad attacks where the Mossad actually planted bombs to scare Iraqi Jews into going to Israel, supposedly, allegedly.

[01:11:49] There's evidence of that, but okay, let's assume that that's true and we don't have proof. Let's assume that that's true. What about all the other countries where Jews were pushed out and fled? I mean, you just can't sort of cherry pick the evidence that supports your stuff here. And I don't think he's doing that.

[01:12:05] I think a lot of other people are doing that. Again, I think Miko argued and had a great conversation. Most/all of it was in good faith, and I think the part that might even seem like it isn't, it might have just been because I misunderstood something. And obviously, we don't agree on everything, but I think that's kind of a cool quality of this show, is that we can still have those conversations.

[01:12:25] And, you know, I think Miko is a really smart guy, even if I think some of his perspectives might be a little off. But that's the beauty of conversations like this anyway, right?

[01:12:41] All things Miko Peled will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com or just ask the AI chatbot on the website. Transcripts, of course, are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show, even if you disagree with the guest.

[01:12:52] We've also got a newsletter. Every week, the team and I dig into an older episode of the show. We dissect the lessons from it. So, if you're a fan of the show, and you want a recap of important highlights and takeaways, or you just want to know what to listen to next, the newsletter is a great place to do that. jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. I'm going to be doing some giveaways on there. I know I sound like a broken record, but that's the truth.

[01:13:10] Don't forget Six-Minute Networking over at jordanharbinger.com/course. I would love to connect with you on Twitter. Well, I don't really use it, but I'm over there. Jordan Harbinger on Twitter, Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. That's an actual connection, by the way.

[01:13:25] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So, if you know somebody who's interested in this conflict, wants a counterpoint to the Mosab episode because they hated it and they told you never to share this show with them again, or they just love conversations like this that open up your mind, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

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