913: Trust Betrayed by Wife Who Strayed (2,300 Times) | Feedback Friday

913: Trust Betrayed by Wife Who Strayed (2,300 Times) | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the life preserver helping us survive these choppy waters of existential drama, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:14] On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

[00:00:28] During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from neuroscientists and war correspondents to hostage negotiators and cold case homicide investigators. This week, we had my friend Ester Perel. If you're not up on Ester Perel, she is an absolutely brilliant relationship therapist. We talk about conflict and cheating, among other topics, in relationships. Even if you're not in a relationship, I think this will fascinate you. And if you are, man, are you going to look at your relationship in a new way or the relationships of people you know? I just feel like a little bit of her rubs off on me every time I talk to her, and we go way, way back, and I'm so excited that she came on this week.

[00:01:01] We also had my other new buddy, former MI6 operative Matthew Dunn. You might have heard of him because he writes Tom Clancy espionage novels that I think are especially popular over in the UK. We talk about Iranian hit squads in the UK, in London, in New York, in the United States, and elsewhere across the globe where essentially regime hitmen and intelligence agents are harassing citizens of other countries, normally of Iranian descent. It's really a fascinating inside look into something I didn't know existed. You know those episodes are always some of my favorites. This is going to be one of those where you go, I can't believe this is happening in my country. And I thought this episode was very eye-opening, especially in light of the whole — Gabriel, did you hear about that Sikh activist that got killed in Canada by India, allegedly?

[00:01:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I did. That is so wild.

[00:01:46] Jordan Harbinger: So weird. I mean, I don't have enough information to say this definitively, but I did read that he was kind of, you know, like, potentially a violent terrorist.

[00:01:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:01:54] Jordan Harbinger: You never know. Does that rhetoric just mean he's distasteful to the regime, or does it mean he's blown people up? I don't know.

[00:02:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. What does that term mean? Depends on country to country and situation to situation. But India considers him a terrorist.

[00:02:05] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. But also we have diplomatic ways of, like, "Hey, you should arrest this guy. Here's the crimes he's committed," not like, "Hey, we murdered somebody who was living in your city, and bye." That's not how we roll here in the civilized world.

[00:02:17] Anyway, on Fridays, we share stories, we offer advice, we play increasingly dumb soundbites, and we do our best to roast Gabe for his diction and/or occasional tendency to succumb to the delightful cliché that he is.

[00:02:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: My favorite love language, truly.

[00:02:32] Jordan Harbinger: By the way, Gabe, random story. Did I ever tell you that I woke up during a medical procedure recently?

[00:02:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, no. What?

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: I did. I woke up during a colonoscopy.

[00:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, sh*t.

[00:02:43] Jordan Harbinger: And I know, it's like, everyone's like, whoa, was eating. Didn't need that right now. But so, Katie Couric, who listens to this show, her husband passed away at like age 40 or something, or 42, from colon cancer. And she's like, "Get screened early! My husband died and he wasn't even your age." And I was like, okay, so I went and got screened because Jen was like, "I'm getting you screened." And, you know, you do the prep, that's a lot of fun, but they gas you out, or they medicate you, I forget which now, maybe a little both. And I just remember being like, my stomach really hurts. I was asleep, you know? And I'm like, my stomach hurts.

[00:03:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:03:18] Jordan Harbinger: It felt like somebody was picking apples off of a tree when the tree is your stomach lining.

[00:03:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man.

[00:03:24] Jordan Harbinger: And I was like, ow, like you could just feel it yank and pull.

[00:03:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, no.

[00:03:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, this is making me feel sick just talking about it. Sorry, folks. And I woke up and I was like, that hurts. And then, the doctor goes, "You can feel that?" And I go, "Yeah, it really hurts." And he's like, you know, he said something to the nurse that was along the lines of maybe not, you know? And I was like, it feels like you're pulling and cutting. And then, he's like, "Oh gosh." And then he told the nurse something, and I zonked out. She probably turned up a notch on the medication.

[00:03:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow. So, you really woke up in the middle of this procedure?

[00:03:55] Jordan Harbinger: Woke up.

[00:03:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man.

[00:03:57] Jordan Harbinger: Then at the end, I was like, "Wow, that was weird. I woke up." Then, he goes, "Oh, you remember that?

[00:04:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: You remember that?

[00:04:04] Jordan Harbinger: And I was like, "Yeah, I remember it really hurts." And he was like, "Yeah, well, the good news is it's all done, and you don't have to do it for five years." And I was like, "How often do people wake up during the procedure?" He's like, "Not very often." Like you could tell, he was kind of nervous and hoping that I forgot about it. Because I don't know, maybe it's more serious than I thought to wake up during that thing but, whatever, I mean—

[00:04:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't that kind of like, it's so nightmarish to think about waking up during a surgery? It's something I imagine only happens in like, Victorian England.

[00:04:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:04:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: When they were still like, getting the gas recipe right or whatever.

[00:04:37] Jordan Harbinger: Right, or the whiskey recipe.

[00:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:04:38] Jordan Harbinger: Like, get him some old whiskey. He's awake.

[00:04:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, just put him out.

[00:04:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know. How often this happens, but I will tell you, it could have been worse. It was a dull pain.

[00:04:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:50] Jordan Harbinger: But I can't imagine doing that without any anesthesia. I don't know why I told this story.

[00:04:54] Anyway, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:04:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About a month ago, my phone broke, so I found an old iPhone in a drawer. I powered it on and realized that it was my wife's old phone from four years ago.

[00:05:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, here we go.

[00:05:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh sh*t.

[00:05:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Whenever there's a phone and a feedback Friday letter, you know it's going to be bad.

[00:05:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. It's never, "I found this old phone, and guess what? It still had snake on it. What a great game. Oh, man." It's always, "I found this old phone and the things on it have ruined my life."

[00:05:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like a gun in a movie, right?

[00:05:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like, you see the gun, it's got to go off.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: Someone's using a gun.

[00:05:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You hear about a phone in a Feedback Friday letter, someone's relationship is about to blow up. Them's the rules. So, the letter goes on.

[00:05:38] When I looked at her old messages, I saw 2,300 messages between her and a guy named Brian.

[00:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:05:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: And discovered that they had a mad passionate love affair behind my back for five months that involved alcohol, naughty lingerie, unprotected sex, and porn how-to videos.

[00:05:56] Soundbite: Hold up.

[00:05:59] Jordan Harbinger: There it is, though, man. That is brutal. How-to videos? I mean, I'm intrigued.

[00:06:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Was that Nate Dogg?

[00:06:05] Jordan Harbinger: That was Nate Dogg, yeah.

[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, that is a classic.

[00:06:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is.

[00:06:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very appropriate. Hold up, indeed.

[00:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: But 2,300 messages.

[00:06:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: 2,300 messages.

[00:06:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, great minds think alike. That is a lot of messages.

[00:06:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who has that kind of time? I don't understand.

[00:06:17] Jordan Harbinger: That's not where my mind goes, but yeah, you're right. Who has the time?

[00:06:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also found that my wife had set up profiles on multiple hookup sites, like Adult Friend Finder, and used private communication apps like Kik to lure in multiple men to have sex in hotel rooms. Once, for example, she left a dinner we were having with my boss to help a friend in trouble when she was actually hooking up with a guy in a hotel.

[00:06:41] Jordan Harbinger: Pfft.

[00:06:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was in absolute shock. My wife and I have been married for 24 years, so 20 back when this happened, and have no children. She's always been very conservative, a turtleneck-wearing Barbara Dole type.

[00:06:55] Wow. What an image. What a strange turn. Okay.

[00:06:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:06:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was the one who always had a higher libido and tried over the years to spice up our sex life, which was mediocre but not terrible. My wife often complained that I didn't show affection and that our marriage had evolved to us being like roommates. Admittedly, the romance had waned, so I begged my wife to see a doctor, and it turned out that her hormones were low. She got a hormone pellet and then, a few months later, another one.

[00:07:21] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:07:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: And said that it skyrocketed her libido out of control and turned her into an out-of-control person who wanted to seek out the most lurid encounters.

[00:07:30] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting, okay, so she's saying that this hormone replacement therapy turned her into a sex-crazed maniac, which, I mean, maybe, was she this person all along underneath the turtlenecks and just didn't tell him and the hormones are a convenient excuse?

[00:07:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hard to say.

[00:07:44] Jordan Harbinger: Also, if you're a sex-crazed maniac, don't you also bang your husband and maybe also other guys—

[00:07:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: —and just not ignore your husband and bang a bunch of others. I have so many questions. Go on.

[00:07:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Curious.

[00:07:54] Then, she met that guy, Brian, who took an interest in her outside the hotel room. That eventually evolved into a friendship with just two relapses over the next two years. The tone of the thousands of emails between them suggest that she was the main initiator.

[00:08:09] Again, thousands of emails. Again, I ask, how does anyone have time for this?

[00:08:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you make time for what you make time for, Gabe, I guess. I don't know, hobbies.

[00:08:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Clearly, I guess so. No excuses. Okay.

[00:08:21] Then, three years ago, she introduced me to Brian as an old coworker and brazenly made him part of our lives. I grilled steaks for this man, and he helped me fix my car.

[00:08:32] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, so she brought her side piece over and introduced him to our friend here, like, this is my buddy Brian, he used to work in accounting. That's just absolutely brutal.

[00:08:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, they actually became friends? Or friendly? Ugh, that's got to feel so gross.

[00:08:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it insults on top of injury, I'd imagine, because this guy's like, "Yeah, I'm banging this guy's wife, and he doesn't even know, huh, I'm eating his steak, what a lo—" you know?

[00:08:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:08:53] Jordan Harbinger: Now, she's lying to him in a new way and rubbing it in his face by doing this. And it almost seems like, is this part of their weird kinky thing, like I'm cheating on my husband and he's right here and now, it's like part of the whole thing.

[00:09:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I finally checked her current phone, she had 2,600 text messages with him under an alias, texting 8 to 15 times every day. Nothing sexual, but—

[00:09:14] I love that he's done like the analytics man on this affair.

[00:09:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:09:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: The business intelligence on this infidelity is excellent. Yeah.

[00:09:22] Nothing sexual in those messages, but a significant relationship that included their families and public meetings. At this point, I believe she's been faithful for the last two years, but since this bombshell, my emotions moved between vindictiveness, anger, pity, and sadness. I still love her, and we have good memories together, but I can't stop thinking about her two worlds. Yesterday, she called Brian in front of me and told him that everything was a big mistake. And that she never wanted him to contact her and blocked his number. She's begging me not to leave and says that she loves me so much and that she would do anything to make things right. I know you love to suggest counseling, but frankly, if I told the therapist the whole story and they didn't tell me to run for the hills, I would question their abilities.

[00:10:09] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:10:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Am I just throwing good effort after a lost cause? Is there a way forward for us? Signed, Double Down After Being Made a Clown, Move Through 'Cause There's Work to Do, or Cut Bait Because It's Just Too Late.

[00:10:23] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, we've heard some wild cheating stories here on the show, but this one is up there.

[00:10:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Takes the cake.

[00:10:28] Jordan Harbinger: The sheer volume, right, and the scale of the operation. Your wife is, uh, prolific.

[00:10:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, very much the Stephen King of adultery, I would say.

[00:10:39] Jordan Harbinger: Oh god. Seriously, I mean, she's living out her very own 50 shades of gross. The details are intense and I'm sure this isn't even a 10th of it, right?

[00:10:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:48] Jordan Harbinger: It cut for time kind of thing. So Gabe, I don't even know where to begin here, man. I mean, his wife cheated on him in a very aggressive way. This wasn't a six-week fling with some guy and then it was over, or even a long affair with one person. This is multiple men in a deceitful and compulsive string of encounters, including at least one very serious relationship with another guy over a two, two-and-a-half year period, if I'm doing the math correctly here.

[00:11:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:14] Jordan Harbinger: This is extraordinary by any measure. It's disturbing. It's shocking. It's obviously a serious betrayal. Also, it's dangerous. Any one of those guys could have done something harmful to her, or to him, or given her a disease that he later gets. Who knows what could have happened?

[00:11:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:30] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it's absolutely terrible judgment in every sense. His feelings make total sense. He's angry, he's sad, he feels bad for himself, he wants to forgive her, but he also hates her and he wants to get back at her. Frankly, I don't even know how you come back from something like this. I don't think I could do it. I don't even think I would bother if I didn't have kids, especially, just, why?

[00:11:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Same here, I get it. And yet, I do understand his bind because here she is saying, "I'm sorry, this was a huge mistake. There's something wrong. Please don't leave." And she ended things with Brian in front of him. Seemingly, that's genuine, although who knows, maybe there was something sort of performative about that.

[00:12:05] Jordan Harbinger: But who knows?

[00:12:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: She does seem to want to work on their marriage, that's what she's saying. And he's sitting there like, "Well, I still love you, we have good memories together, so do we give this another shot?" I mean, it's a weird place to be.

[00:12:15] Jordan Harbinger: But he's also saying, "I can't stop thinking about her two worlds." I mean, I don't see—

[00:12:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:12:20] Jordan Harbinger: —how he's supposed to bleach his brain after what he's seen and read. It's not like he found out through a friend like, "Hey, I think your wife's been cheating on you." "Yeah, oh my god, I have, but I ended things." Like, he has every detail of the stuff—

[00:12:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:12:31] Jordan Harbinger: —he wasn't supposed to know, and he has no guarantee she won't do this again.

[00:12:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that's the thing is that the history of deceit is so disturbing.

[00:12:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's really hard to know if she's telling the truth. She could secretly still be doing this now.

[00:12:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he might not know. I mean, he seems to be really good at looking at her phone and her email, but you know, she could have another account. We just don't know.

[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: She has a real pattern. But, there is this hormone excuse, which is very interesting, but honestly, Jordan—

[00:12:58] Jordan Harbinger: Nah.

[00:12:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: —I don't know if I would buy into that.

[00:12:59] Jordan Harbinger: I'm calling BS. Yeah.

[00:13:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Because even if her libido were out of control, she could still talk to him about that, right? As you pointed out, she would want to have sex with him, too. Or she could just go to her doctor and say, "Hey, I think there's something wrong. I feel like I'm going crazy.

[00:13:11] Jordan Harbinger: Right. She's acting like she was completely at the whim of biology, an excuse we would never accept from, I don't know, a 13-year-old boy who's completely at the whim of biology for most of his young adult life and doesn't have any life experience or know any better. Maybe I don't know what it's like to have way too much estrogen or whatever, but I still have to believe your character is intact. Your moral compass still exists in there somewhere. Maybe you have a moment of roid rage or something if you got too much testosterone, but when a responsible person's hormones go out of control, they tell their doctor, they tell their partner, they don't just indulge all their most base instincts for literally years on end. You don't just accept that this is the new you and part of your permanent personality. If I do a bunch of steroids and I'm like, "Man, I'm really angry all the time." I don't just walk around punching people and be like, "You have to accept this part of me. Sorry, it's just who I am." I mean, you end up in prison for that. There's a reason. Come on.

[00:14:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's also remember that when our friend here checked her phone, she had thousands of messages with Brian under an alias, right? And those messages, he said, were nothing sexual, but they were a significant relationship, and they were talking about their families, they were, there were public meetings.

[00:14:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:14:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she can't blame that on her strangely high libido, right?

[00:14:19] Jordan Harbinger: Right, that's a good point. I don't think the side effects of hormone pellets include a heightened predilection towards emotional intimacy and family barbecues in the park. That's nonsense.

[00:14:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Side effects may include sending your colleague thousands of text messages about your children and meeting up in the park to talk about your feelings. I don't think so.

[00:14:36] Jordan Harbinger: Lying to your spouse of two decades. The more we talk about this, the more the hormone replacement excuse, it just falls apart at the seams immediately.

[00:14:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:14:43] Jordan Harbinger: But hey, if there are any fertility doctors listening right now who have insight into this, I'd be curious to hear from you whether these treatments can truly make you lose your mind. Whether we're actually driven by hormones a lot more than we think, I just don't buy that you have no agency at that point, over a two-year period, it's not one indiscretion.

[00:15:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, like you said, Jordan, there's a compulsive quality to these affairs that sounds like an addiction of some kind and again, who knows where that developed because it seems to come out of the blue. But then there's also the lying, the deceit, there seems to be so much more than just chemicals and hormones alone.

[00:15:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So my take is if you guys have any hope of working on your marriage after this, it'll be in couples therapy, ideally individual therapy too, man. You guys have a lot to unpack and heal from, holy cow, the affairs and encounters obviously, but also your personal histories, the libido element, the fact that the romance had waned before all this stuff, how you guys have responded to all this. I don't think you're going to be able to do it all alone. I do think you need a professional here, and you should have one to just sanity check everything that you're thinking and doing.

[00:15:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm very interested in this thing. He said, "Frankly if I told the therapist the whole story and they didn't tell me to run for the hills, I would question their abilities."

[00:15:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that stuck out to me immediately because he's basically saying, "I already know the answer. It's get as far away from this person as I can."

[00:16:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:00] Jordan Harbinger: "But I can't, I haven't accepted that yet," or some version of that.

[00:16:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a big part of him that wants to stay and work on this and he's afraid that going to therapy will mean officially closing the door on that possibility.

[00:16:10] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I wonder if he's also a little embarrassed to bring this to a therapist because he feels like they're going to make him feel dumb or, you know, wrong, whatever, for even considering whether he should stay. But I don't think that there's any therapist, any therapist worth their salt anyway, who would straight up tell him to run for the hills in their very first session if he came in wanting to talk. Just talk about what he's been through.

[00:16:35] Jordan Harbinger: Unless he goes to some Lydia who just tells him what to do from the jump. And honestly, in this case—

[00:16:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:16:40] Jordan Harbinger: I'm going to side with Lydia. I don't know how you save a marriage after this. In fact, I'm going to be a Lydia here and say—

[00:16:46] Soundbite: Run, Forrest, run. Run, Forrest.

[00:16:50] Jordan Harbinger: I know we're hitting the soundbites hard, I think this relationship is toast. I do. I wouldn't try to fix this. Things are too far gone. Gabe, again, if this is me, no kids, I'm out. Why try to fix it? Take a sabbatical from work, go to Columbia for a few months, decompress, think about all this. You know what I'm saying? At least get some distance.

[00:17:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear you, Jordan, but that is his choice, their choice.

[00:17:10] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah.

[00:17:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: If they really do want to work on things, if there's still love there, if they're willing to do a ton of work, and it is significant work—

[00:17:18] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: —that we're talking about, then there might, might be a way through this. But my point is, this response that he's anticipating from a therapist, I don't think he's going to get that response, at least not in such an obvious way. It's more likely that a therapist is going to say, "I hear that there's a part of you that feels like you should run for the hills, and I hear that there's a part of you that wants to stay and work on this, so let's talk about that." And then, he can begin exploring all of these angles, and there's a lot for him to explore. Maybe that leads him to working on this with his wife. Maybe that leads him to getting a divorce and moving on, but the process that he would go through with a therapist would still be hugely helpful, just putting aside the question of whether he should ultimately stay. So I don't want him to avoid a helpful experience because he's already anticipating that a therapist is going to shame him or judge him right off the bat for not arriving at that conclusion immediately.

[00:18:09] Jordan Harbinger: Fair enough, I just, I don't have high hopes for this marriage, but I definitely share your opinion that there's valuable work for him to do in therapy regardless. And obviously, the same goes for his wife, I mean, she's the one who really needs therapy, my god.

[00:18:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:18:21] Jordan Harbinger: And possibly a recovery program of some kind, because, whatever, but she's not the one writing it.

[00:18:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, to answer your question, are you just throwing good effort after a lost cause, I think it depends what the cause is. If the cause is to save your marriage at all costs, I think you can tell where we stand on that, right?

[00:18:38] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:18:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm with Jordan. I probably wouldn't be able to come back from this personally, but yeah, that doesn't mean that you guys can't if you're both on the same page. But if the cause is to figure out how you got here, to understand yourselves better, to get more insight into how you and your wife operated in your marriage and how you relate to each other. And the question of whether to stay together is just one product of that work, then this might not be throwing good money and time after bad, but whatever you do, I would make sure you're doing it because you want to do it because it's in service of, you know, your growth and your understanding, not because you feel guilty or ashamed or somehow beholden to your wife.

[00:19:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree. I think if you're sticking around to spare her or because you're too afraid to say, "This is not okay. I'm out. I need to be on my own," then I would seriously reconsider. But I do know that throwing yourself into therapy will always pay dividends. Having that space to work out these complicated feelings, I think that's really important for you right now.

[00:19:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:33] Jordan Harbinger: Again, so sorry this has happened to you. It's shocking. It's sad. It is beyond painful and you're going through something truly extraordinary. So please take care of yourself, stay connected to what you're feeling right now, and just try to learn as much as possible while you navigate all this. Sending you a big hug, wishing you all the best, man.

[00:19:51] You know what'll get you hotter than a hormone pellet, Gabriel? The steamy good deals on the products and services that support this show.

[00:19:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:59] Jordan Harbinger: We'll be right back.

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[00:21:00] Jen Harbinger: Blindsgalore guarantees the look you'll love, and they've been doing this for 25 years. Check them out during their big birthday sale and let them know we sent you. The party is going on right now, so don't miss it. Get over to blindsgalore.com today.

[00:21:12] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. You ever find yourself diving deep into the rabbit hole of your own mind, wondering if that awkward handshake from two years ago is now why your neighbor avoids eye contact? Well, you are not alone. And BetterHelp can help those of us who overanalyze everything. BetterHelp is such a great platform because it's got a network of tens of thousands of therapists. Fill out a quick questionnaire. They match you with one that specializes in what you need. And all from the comfort of your pajama, pants, or skip the pants entirely if you want, nobody has to know. No more sitting in a waiting room, no more weaving through traffic to get to an appointment on time. With BetterHelp, you can unload your thoughts to a licensed professional, wherever and whenever is convenient for you. So, if you're ready to stop replaying that weird joke you made in 2009, and start living in the now, give BetterHelp a try.

[00:21:54] Jen Harbinger: Make your brain your friend with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:22:02] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting this show. It is your support of our advertisers and sponsors that keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can use the AI chatbot to surface those promo codes as well. Consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:22:18] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:22:22] Okay. Next up.

[00:22:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 49-year-old single lady. I've had depression and anxiety my whole life, but lately, it's been worse due to common midlife angst, questioning my choices, evaluating my success and failures, stuff like that. When I visit my mom, my depression and anxiety become dramatically worse. She doesn't do anything on purpose to make it worse, but being at home is a major reminder of all the ways that I've disappointed her. My sister is wealthy and thin, has two children, and is engaged to be married for the second time. I, on the other hand, am broke, fat, single, and have few prospects. I vape and smoke marijuana, and I know my mom is super stressed about those habits. I always keep my visits home short because I've learned that spending more than three days visiting her leads to a major downward spiral that can take me weeks to come out of. The problem is that my mom thinks she's doing something to make me want to dip almost as soon as I arrive. I haven't told her about my mental illness and I don't think she has any idea. I want to tell her, but my sister's first husband committed suicide a year and a half ago. And I know if I tell her I have depression, she's going to worry herself sick that I'll try to hurt myself. I would never ever put my family through that, but my mom is super anxious and a chronic worrier. I know that if I tell her what's going on, she'll tell everyone she knows about my problem. She'll stop sleeping, and she'll tell me all the time how worried she is about me. But if I don't tell her, she'll keep thinking she's doing something wrong and I don't want her to feel like that either. What do I do? Signed, Wrestling with the Mubble-Fubbles as I Stumble into Trouble in This Family Bubble.

[00:24:08] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, I did not think you'd bring back Mubble-Fubbles. I remember vaguely reading about that in high school. Remind me, that means. Is that old timey English for depression?

[00:24:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Depression, yeah. The blues, dread, melancholia, et cetera.

[00:24:21] Jordan Harbinger: Nothing like a reference from 400 years ago to keep things fresh around here. Old Gabey Shakespeare's over here.

[00:24:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just a great word. I want to bring it back. I love mubble-fubbles, the old mubby-fubs.

[00:24:31] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, it's so nerdy. So nerdy. But yeah, this is a real tough case of the mubby-fubs indeed. So this is an interesting story. You know, even for the happiest people, going home can be hard.

[00:24:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:24:43] Jordan Harbinger: All that childhood stuff comes up, you're face to face with the people who shaped you, for better or worse, it is intense. It's reminding me of that spiritual teacher. What was his name? Ram Dass, I think. And Ram Dass said something like, "If you think you're so enlightened, go spend a weekend with your parents."

[00:24:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, yeah.

[00:24:58] Jordan Harbinger: I know nothing about Ram Dass. I actually can't believe I'm quoting a guy named Ram Dass on the show.

[00:25:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was about to say, you're quoting Ram Dass? Okay, new era.

[00:25:06] Jordan Harbinger: You know me. I'm back from my 30-day meditation retreat. I'm never doing that. But he was dead on about that.

[00:25:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: He was.

[00:25:11] Jordan Harbinger: So I really do understand the dilemma you're in here. You want to open up to your mom, but if you do, she's going to spin out, she's going to tell everybody what you're going through because she can't stop herself, she's going to worry herself to death. It's a tough position to be in. But I'm also very intrigued and impressed by your level of self-awareness. They do say depressed people are more self-aware and have a firmer grasp on reality. It's a whole evolved thing.

[00:25:33] You can see that the depression and anxiety are worse right now because you're looking more clearly at your successes, your failures. You're on your own right now. You're struggling financially. That makes sense. Those are hard themes to be dealing with. And I can definitely appreciate how that pain can be magnified by a sibling who's doing a lot better than you these days, at least on the surface. Although she did go through a major tragedy recently, so it's an interesting question whether this comparison is totally accurate.

[00:26:00] But, you also know that you're not taking care of yourself as well as you should. You're vaping, that's obviously bad for you. You're smoking weed, smoking anything's not great. And weed can, I don't have to get into it. You're overweight, by your own admission. You don't need us to tell you that this lifestyle and these habits, they don't make the depression and anxiety better. In the long term, they only make it worse.

[00:26:22] Your mom is stressed out about all that, and I got to say, I can understand why. If my daughter came home depressed and anxious, and I saw her vaping tobacco and smoking weed and not taking good care of herself, I would also be worried. So, I think what's happening, and you're already onto this, is that you're going home, some difficult truths are getting mirrored back to you, and that's really hard to bear. The downward spiral you go into if you spend more than a few days there, I really get why that's so painful, but my sense is that a spiral is the product of a process that you go through when these aspects of you become more visible when you experience your family's concern.

[00:27:02] It feels like it's your mom's doing, and to some extent it is, don't get me wrong. But it's probably more accurate to say that the spiral is what happens when you see yourself through your mom. Somewhat accurately, from the sound of it, and her feelings confirm something difficult which is that there are some important things you need to address in your life right now. And what you do with those feelings, how you process them, or maybe don't process them, how you internalize them, what else they bring up, that is what produces the spiral.

[00:27:30] And yes, the spiral might be the result of the anxiety and the depression. But it also might be a cause of them, too. And that's keeping you stuck in this difficult loop where spending time with your mom is very painful, but you're both creating this experience, and you just can't tell her why. And look, I hope you don't mind that I'm being so direct with you, but I'm hearing your letter, and half of me wants to give you a huge hug, which you deserve, and half of me wants to say, hey, your mom might be right on some of this stuff, you're not fully showing up for yourself the way that you should.

[00:27:58] Gabe, am I being too tough on her? What is your read here?

[00:28:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I agree with you completely, but I think there is a little bit more to her story, which is mom and how mom responds to her daughter, right? This anxious response that her mom has to her struggling, I think that's also a big driver of the depression and the anxiety, especially the depression.

[00:28:18] Because look, if she tries to open up to her mom about how she's feeling these days, look what her mom does. She worries herself sick. She stopped sleeping. She tells her daughter and apparently all of her friends how worried she is about her. And she thinks she's doing something to drive her daughter away. Some of that is fair, I guess. I mean, look, that Ram Dass quote you mentioned a moment ago probably works in the other direction, too. If, you know, you think you're so enlightened, go spend a weekend with your kids, right? Family dynamics, right? It's crazy. But these responses from her mother, they're kind of making it all about her, right? Like her worry, her burden. Her unloading to her friends, her sleeplessness. It doesn't sound like her mom has the capacity to say, "Look, when you tell me you're depressed. When I see that you're anxious, I really worry about you, and that's hard for me. But, like, what is this like for you? You know, what's going on? Do you want to talk? What can I do as your mom to help?"

[00:29:10] Jordan Harbinger: Right, right, it's not, "Can I do anything to make you feel comfortable staying longer?" It's straight to, "Oh, I'm freaking out now."

[00:29:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, she's having a very strong response to her daughter's response, and that becomes its own anxiety, and she kind of takes this experience from our friend here and makes it entirely about her, while also, by the way, creating a new problem for her to have to deal with, which is, "Oh my god, my mom is so worried, now I need to make sure she isn't or help her." So, all our friend is left with is A, the evidence that there is something wrong with her, and B, the fact that her mom isn't willing or able to help her. And that only compounds the sense of, "Oh, she can't handle this, she can't be there for me, I really am alone in all of this." And if her mom is like that now, then she was almost certainly like that when she was growing up, which means her mom might never have been there for her in the way that she really needed.

[00:30:00] So, look, we're obviously only getting one side of the story, but the sense I get is that she isn't really equipped to empathize with her daughter and to bear her daughter's feelings. All she seems to be able to do to your point, Jordan, is kind of internalize them and experience them as her own anxiety, which is kind of sad. It's sad for both of them, but it's also a classic recipe for depression. A lot of these feelings might have to go underground. She might feel the need to shut them down on her own and possibly with the help of the weed because the message that she's gotten is, "Your feelings are too much, they're too difficult, and really they come at my expense."

[00:30:39] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that's also a classic recipe for shame too, right? The shame piece makes working on all of this just so much harder.

[00:30:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. So, yes, I share your view that her mom, and maybe her sister to a lesser extent, they are reflecting back to her some important facts, and part of her work is to bear her own discomfort in confronting those facts, but at the same time, visiting her mom, I think is kind of going back to the scene of the crime, right? Where her feelings about herself are magnified and reflected back to her. She struggles to work through some of those feelings, they get transmuted into depression and anxiety, but also she's around the one person who should be there for her, but isn't. And maybe should have been there for her, but never was. And that is objectively painful, in a way that she might not ever be able to fully control. So, her job, in my view, is to make space for both of these realities. One reality is, she needs to take responsibility for some of these difficult feelings, and probably take a lot better care of herself. The other reality is her mom might inadvertently be contributing to some of her pain.

[00:31:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's fair. That one-two punch is kind of the perfect cocktail for feeling stuck. But that feeling of being stuck, that's actually the crux of the story to me.

[00:31:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:58] Jordan Harbinger: Either she needs to make more peace with her situation, or she just, she needs to start working on some of this stuff, ideally, of course, in therapy, I know everyone's going to make fun of me every question is go to therapy. But from where I'm sitting, there are a few things that she can start doing right now to help herself. To me, the tobacco and the weed are at the top of the list. I'm not judging. Look, that stuff's fine, but it's just, it's making things worse. So, get rid of that at least for now. There's a layer of this that is physiological. And when you're depressed, when you're anxious, weed just isn't your friend. Even if it feels that way temporarily. In fact, feeling stuck, is one of the unfortunate side effects of cannabis, and we see this all the time in our inbox. I've experienced it myself. Then, treating herself better, eating well, getting some exercise, sleeping regularly. I mean, we don't know her lifestyle, but these habits tend to create a certain lifestyle and mindset. These are these lead dominoes, right? The sleep goes and then you're doing more of this and less of that. Mental health issues are obviously very complex. I'm not chalking all this up to like, "Just put down the jewel and go for a walk."

[00:32:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:58] Jordan Harbinger: But if you want to make progress on the deeper stuff, you have to give yourself every possible advantage. And that's the end of the life coach Jordan portion of this answer. But just, I had to go on the record here because it's kind of table stakes for this work and it's a low hanging fruit, right? These habits are tough to break, but it's going to be night and day when you quit smoking and vaping. It really is. Everybody says so. I've experienced a lot of this stuff myself.

[00:33:22] So thank you for sharing all this with us. I know it's tough to talk about. I really do admire your vulnerability. You might never get the response you want from your mom. And that's another difficult fact to come to terms with, but if you start tackling some of this stuff, you might be surprised to find that these visits become a lot more tolerable, possibly, dare I say, even enjoyable.

[00:33:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or, you're going to learn how to talk to your mom in a new way that allows her to respond to you differently. I think that's also possible.

[00:33:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right, or you'll find that by taking care of yourself better, her limitations, they just won't hurt you as much.

[00:33:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: True.

[00:33:55] Jordan Harbinger: So, who knows, you're going to find out, but as with most things, it really does start with you. So, good luck, I know you can do it, sending you a big hug, and we are wishing you all the best.

[00:34:04] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your sibling is spiraling out of control, or you're stuck in a creepy and abusive family and you don't know how to survive. What a heartbreaking letter from last week, Gabe.

[00:34:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wild.

[00:34:21] Jordan Harbinger: Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:34:28] Okay, next up.

[00:34:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 29-year-old woman from Germany and work as an IT consultant at a consulting firm. I'm also pregnant and will be going on maternity leave soon for about 18 months.

[00:34:40] Oh, you got to love Europe.

[00:34:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I know.

[00:34:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maternity leave for a year and a half.

[00:34:44] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a concept. Okay.

[00:34:47] I started as a project assistant at this company two years ago almost directly out of university with no experience. My first project ended up making me an expert on a topic which resulted in about 10 more projects that I've worked and at least as many in the next few years, all with substantial profits for the company. I've been told on multiple occasions that I've basically become irreplaceable and that the company is impressed with how quickly I adapted and continue to improve in my work. New hires always get sent to me to learn about the projects and their inner workings. I've also completed multiple trainings and have signaled to my boss that I would be willing to participate in trainings during my leave to keep up.

[00:35:26] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:35:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I started, I did so with an appropriate starting salary and have since gotten a raise of 15 percent. But now, I'm doing the exact same work and more as other consultants on my team and they make almost double my salary. When I go back to work after my maternity leave, I want to renegotiate my salary. I won't be going back full time, 40 hours, but instead plan on going back part time, 30 hours. I like my job, my company, and my colleagues, and I'd like to avoid looking for a new job with a small child. My plan is to ask for my current salary but with the reduced hours, which would be a substantial raise, but would almost equalize my salary with my colleagues who do the exact same work. Is this a reasonable approach? How do I bring this up with my boss without sounding entitled and greedy? Signed, Looking for Clarity on this Pay Parity.

[00:36:19] Jordan Harbinger: Great question. First of all, congrats on the baby. That is super exciting. Second, congrats on absolutely crushing it at your firm. The fact that you were hired at 24 years old with zero experience and have become the go-to expert on this topic, that is fantastic. That's got to speak to how sharp you are, how hardworking you are, and I think it puts you in a really nice position to ask for what you want.

[00:36:42] We wanted to chat with a legit expert about your question, you know, somebody with a real job or something approximating one. So we ran all this by Michelle Tillis Lederman, brilliant executive coach, author of The Connector's Advantage, and friend of the show.

[00:36:54] When we shared your story with Michelle, she said she was thrilled to hear that you know your worth and you're willing to ask for it. So her recommendation is, approach this first by setting expectations, which starts with a conversation now about the plan for maternity leave — how you can stay involved, how you can keep supporting the team from a distance, and what you can expect in return. You've already signaled to your boss that you'd be willing to participate in those trainings during your leave, which I think is a great way to stay connected, and also it proves that you're willing to put in the work. I mean, I think, especially in Europe, Gabriel, I think when you're on maternity leave, you're basically allowed to just turn off your email and pretend like you're not, you don't have a job at all.

[00:37:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: DND for 18 months, right?

[00:37:34] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so Dungeons and Dragons. That means do not disturb, for those of you who thought it meant Dungeons and Dragons like I did.

[00:37:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Board games, that's what I was talking about.

[00:37:41] Jordan Harbinger: Just ignore the baby and play board games with a hundred-sided dice. So what the hell were we talking—?

[00:37:47] Right. So you can stay connected by doing these little trainings and things like that. I think people are going to be really blown away by that. As for negotiating the salary you want, Michelle said she would ask your boss how they view your role compared to your peers who make more money. Your goal in this conversation is to get them to establish your equal or greater value. So here is how Michelle said she would do this. First, start by thanking them for acknowledging your value to the company. You know, like basically give him credit for that and also remind them that they've already done this publicly. Then, Michelle would say, "So, how do you see my role as different from Jörg and Felix and Beate?" And yes, it's Jörg, but I'm going to say Jörg because I don't want people laughing at me too hard in the emails. You know, those other people that are earning more money than you.

[00:38:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, way to plug in the most German names you could think of.

[00:38:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, those are people I know in Germany. I know multiple people with each of those names in Germany.

[00:38:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Those are stereotypical, Jörg, Felix, Beate.

[00:38:43] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I even know a Bruno, but it was just too, actually Bruno, but it was too on point. And we are painting a picture here, Gabriel.

[00:38:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: You sure are. I love it.

[00:38:52] Jordan Harbinger: She's from Germany. She's a consultant. You know there's a Jörg, a Beate, and a Beate, for that matter, on her team. There has to be. They probably have a law about that, too. Now, if there is a difference in your roles that justifies the salary difference, Michelle, well, she indicated it's important to know that. But if there isn't a difference, this will give you the positioning to push ahead with the negotiation. Then, Michelle said you can agree with them and communicate that you trust your salary should reflect that.

[00:39:19] You could say something like, "I'm glad you feel that way. I do too, which is why I want to talk to you now about adjusting my compensation to match the people doing the same job. I admire your fairness, and I trust that you'll help right this imbalance. What do you think is the path to making this happen?" And you can adjust that to a 30-hour-a-week basis. However you want to get there. They might say like, "Oh, we can't really afford to give you more." And you say, "Don't worry, I'm not asking for more. I just want fewer hours." I mean, you've got a lot of levers you can pull here. Michelle's final thought, she would not wait to make this request. Don't come back from maternity leave and be like, "What's up? I want a raise, bitches!"

[00:39:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:39:56] Jordan Harbinger: In her experience, bureaucracy takes time. Set expectations now. Especially because when you come back, it's like, oh, long time no see. Yes, you were at the trainings. But asking for a raise right then, it's kind of like, wow. You haven't even warmed up the seat at your desk and you want more money. Do it now before you leave. And then the gears can grind while you're bringing your kid into this world.

[00:40:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely. Now, about bringing this up with your boss without sounding entitled and greedy. Michelle's take there is when you get somebody to agree with your request upfront like this, it's not about greed or entitlement. It's just about being fair and just, right? You're not storming into your boss's office, acting super presumptuous, you know, demanding 50,000 euros more for no good reason.

[00:40:36] We can tell from your letter that you're a very thoughtful person and you're very level headed. You're clearly an amazing employee. So, I know you're going to strike the right note in this conversation, but Michelle is right. The fact that there are other people making more than you for the same work, and actually in some cases you are doing more work than they are, that makes this conversation so much easier. It's pretty much impossible to come across as entitled or greedy when your whole case is basically, "Hey, these people here are doing the same work and they're making more, so can we just make this right?"

[00:41:06] Jordan Harbinger: And if they do, then your company isn't doing right by you. And it might be worth escalating the request or taking your skills to another firm, but you don't need to worry about that yet. Start with this conversation, do it soon, and go get that bag. Congrats again on the baby, hope maternity leave is awesome, and make sure you soak up that time with your little one. It's very special, take it from me, just went through that myself twice, and just, it's a magical time, and you get all that time off to just enjoy the kids. I think it's going to be amazing and catch up on sleep or try to sleep.

[00:41:35] Big thanks to Michelle Tillis Lederman for her wisdom here. If you want to learn more about Michelle, she writes an awesome newsletter called Connected Leadership. We'll link to that in the show notes. You can also sign up for it on her website, michelletillislederman.com. We'll link to that in the show notes, but we will also link to her book The Connectors Advantage in the show notes. It's a terrific read. I highly recommend it for anybody looking to grow in their career.

[00:41:57] You know what's a great use of that properly adjusted salary, Gabriel? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:42:06] This episode is sponsored in part by AG1. Something that's been a game changer for me and Jen especially. She's hooked on this. Life gets busy. The last thing I want to stress about is whether I'm getting like the right vegetables and micronutrients in my diet. I know it's probably not that hard, but it's still hard, especially with two little kids. That's where AG1 comes into play. It's not just another supplement. It's like an all-in-one nutritional insurance package for your body. Each scoop packed with 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, whole food source nutrients. I don't have time to ensure that I get all that in my regular diet. I mean, I'm not even frankly, paying that close attention. I got diapers to change, people. First of all, convenience is key. To build good habits, you need to lower the friction to get there. In the mornings, Jen and I mix one scoop of AG1 into a glass of water. Boom. Got our bases covered for the day. Yeah, you pee some of it out. I get it. That's what vitamins are for. The rest of the stuff you need. Secondly, it's not just about what's in it. It's about what's not in it. Not a bunch of artificial stuff, sketchy additives. My friend started this company, he was real, kind of anal about all the stuff that goes in there because he was using it himself, obviously. I also like it's not overly sweetened. It just has a slight green flavor. Like just green enough to know it works. Don't take my word for it. Try it out for yourself.

[00:43:13] Jen Harbinger: If you want to take ownership of your health, try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkag1.com/jordan. That's drinkag1.com/jordan.

[00:43:25] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by FlyKitt. I love FlyKitt. I want to share this game changer for any globe trotter brave in the jet lag jungle. Our family is gearing up for a trip to Taiwan, which is a 15-hour time difference from good old California. Our secret weapon on trips like this. is FlyKitt and FlyKitt will help tackle that groggy what day is it feeling after a long flight. FlyKitt's got the curated essentials that ensure you hit the ground running or at the very least walking without falling on your face. This kit includes the sleep aids which are, you know, like supplements and all that stuff. It's got the AI to time everything in the app, light exposures, timed meals are timed, all tailored to your specific travel itinerary. No more wasting precious vacation hours recovering in some dim hotel room in a brain fog. FlyKitt's streamlined approach. It means we're prepped, we're ready, not just to combat the flight fatigue, but to dive straight into stuffing our faces with all kinds of great food and culture the moment that we land. And I've used it plenty of times to go to Asia, to go to the Middle East, to go to North Africa. It works every time, and the people that don't use it, you can really tell. Some of us are ready to go, and some of us are ready to go to bed. So for those of us who value every travel minute, It is priceless. Go to FlyKitt with two T's dot com. That's FlyKitt, F-L-Y-K-I-T-T.com to get a FlyKitt for 15 percent off with code JORDAN. FlyKitt with two T's dot com promo code JORDAN. Try it out on your next trip. Hit me up. I love to hear your stories and feedback. Again, my friend started this company, and it is frigging genius.

[00:44:51] If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are available in one place, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. You can also email me. Anybody on our team can dig up a code for you, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It really does keep things going around here.

[00:45:20] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:45:23] Okay, next up.

[00:45:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, My father is in his late 60s and divorced my mother after she discovered that he had been having a long-term affair and a gambling addiction. I'm the youngest of three, and I was the only one at home with my mom during the divorce, which really bonded us. I'm not very close with my dad, and that's been made worse by him moving to another state to live with the woman he was having an affair with.

[00:45:48] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:45:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: I want to be an adult and wish my dad the best, but his partner is just so miserable. She has tons of chronic pain and health issues that make her mean to my father. My dad is not a great cook, housekeeper, or caregiver, but he tries his best to care for her 24/7. Because of her health issues, she can't be left alone for more than a few hours, making it difficult for my dad to visit my sister and her family on the west coast, or me and my kids, who are only three hours away. When he does make trips, he either brings her, which results in her complaining the whole time and being generally unpleasant, or he leaves her at home, which means that she texts and calls him the whole time about what a bad job he did setting up the house.

[00:46:34] Jordan Harbinger: This woman sounds difficult. I want to be compassionate because she has chronic pain and health issues, which are awful, but yuck. I mean, it just, ugh. I now understand a lot better what a huge toll pain takes on people from my interview with Dr. Rachel Zoffness. That was episode 661. We'll link to that in the show notes. It's one of our, again, most fascinating and popular episodes. Pain affects your mental state. It can make you miserable, but also being miserable can cause or increase the pain. So it's tricky stuff that works in both directions.

[00:47:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. And then calling and texting him the whole time he's visiting his kids to yell at him for not doing a good enough job when he takes care of her 24/7. I don't know. This woman does sound rather difficult at a minimum.

[00:47:15] Jordan Harbinger: She does. And kind of possessive, which I think is also probably going on here. I wonder if she's threatened by his relationship with the daughter, but now I'm speculating, obviously she gets uneasy when he's not orbiting around her. I don't know. The pain almost like controls him in a way too, but—

[00:47:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:47:31] Jordan Harbinger: —we're not analyzing her, but look, I know several people with chronic pain and they're not insufferably annoying to be around and have no, I mean, you know, life's hard sometimes, but they don't go out of their way to torture the one person who's dedicated their life to taking care of them. Anyway, go on.

[00:47:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I have no idea what he gets out of this relationship, except grief and abuse. During a recent visit with my sister, he said he was in hell, and he made other disparaging comments about his partner and his life.

[00:47:57] Ah, that's sad.

[00:47:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's pretty dark. So he feels trapped.

[00:48:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'd like to say something to him about the situation, and maybe suggest that he leave her and move closer to me, where most of his eight other siblings still live. But, I don't really know how to approach him about it and I worry that our relationship isn't really close enough for me to make this suggestion. How do I talk to my dad about his relationship? Or is this even my place? Signed, Looking for the Chops to Help My Pops as His Relationship Flops.

[00:48:28] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so your dad is in a very bleak place right now. He got together with his mistress. I'm guessing he didn't know what he was getting into. Or maybe he did and ignored the signs...now he's playing nurse to a miserable woman with a lot of needs — some fair.

[00:48:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:48:42] Jordan Harbinger: Some not so fair. And now he feels stuck because he probably feels guilty about leaving her in this state, which, to me, feels like he got trapped.

[00:48:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Hard to say. Guilty and also, I think, a little scared.

[00:48:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. She is kind of scary because she's so intense and mean.

[00:48:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:48:57] Jordan Harbinger: Although I have to believe that there were some signs she was like this when they first got together. I doubt this happened overnight.

[00:49:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:49:04] Jordan Harbinger: Meanwhile, your dad has his own issues. He's an addict. He had this affair. He's struggling to make a decision here. So obviously, he's playing a big role in all this too. So, Is it your place to talk to him? Kind of, you are his daughter. You obviously care about him. So I don't think it's wildly overstepping to talk to your dad about what he's going through, although I do understand why not being super close makes it a little awkward. There isn't a ton of closeness or rapport for you to just say, "Hey, dad, just leave this woman already. She's a miserable bag of bones." The good news is he's already told you that he's in hell. I don't know why that's the good news. So he's literally said to you, "Marjorie's really getting to me." He's acknowledging that he's unhappy.

[00:49:47] So, look, I do think that you have a license to say, "Dad, I've heard you complain about Marjorie a few times. I know you're unhappy in this relationship. So I just got to ask, what's keeping you there? Why is she still with you? Do you think it's fair that she makes it so hard for you to visit us? I mean, we're your kids. What do you want out of your life? Do you want to live closer to me and your siblings? Because we would like that." And invite him to talk, if he opens up a little bit, you can help him make sense of his feelings about her and see if there's a part of him that wants to leave, but doesn't know how. I would also lead with questions like that rather than jumping straight to, "Dad, you're miserable, just break up with her already," even though I'm tempted to say that myself. But even if that's the answer, that might be moving too quickly for him. It might make him shut down and just tough it out because the answers are too overwhelming.

[00:50:36] If this were my dad, I'd probably try to steer him to the conclusion to break up with her because he's obviously miserable, so is she, so it's like, what's the point? She doesn't add anything to his life and it's not like they were married for years and years and it's like, "Oh, my spouse got sick, I should take care of her." This woman just was always kind of, you know, this is her. But like we always come back to, this is ultimately his decision. If he resists or rejects your help, then you have to accept that he's just not ready to make this decision. And you can still support him and invite him to talk, but he's on his own timeline here.

[00:51:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, and/or, on some level, he wants to be in this relationship.

[00:51:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:51:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's important to remember because, yeah, like you said, there are two of them here, and he might be getting something out of this arrangement even if it makes him miserable, which is fascinating, actually. My only other thought here is whether Marjorie is a monster or not, it sounds like she needs a lot of support, and it doesn't sound like she's getting it from him.

[00:51:31] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, she can't be left alone for more than a few hours, and like our friend here said, he's not a great cook, he's not a good housekeeper, he's not a trained caregiver, I mean, part of me is listening to this and going is he even the right person to be taking care of her?

[00:51:45] Jordan Harbinger: He's the only one who'll freaking put up with her probably.

[00:51:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that's the other thing But like you said, what are they getting out of it? She has these needs. He's not meeting them. He's miserable. He doesn't want — it's like what's going on here. She might be blowing up his phone constantly when he's away because yes, she wants to ruin his trip, but she might also be blowing up his phone because she's really not being taken care of properly and she's freaking out. I mean, we don't know the state of the house. We don't know how well he's setting her up to live without him. It could be a mess over there. Maybe he's even putting her at some risk.

[00:52:13] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:52:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: If he's not the one to take care of her, then that is another reason that they shouldn't be together. Or they need to find her some additional care because something in this situation just is not working.

[00:52:23] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I'm guessing that's a big part of the conflict he feels because if he leaves her—

[00:52:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course.

[00:52:27] Jordan Harbinger: Right, he's not just breaking up with her. He's ditching this sick woman with these health problems, leaving her alone with them. And maybe there isn't anyone else around—

[00:52:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:52:34] Jordan Harbinger: —who can take care of her. Because it's like if she lived near her sister, he'd be like, "Okay, I'm out. Gabby's going to take care of her, not my problem." It's just, it's got to be something like that. "You're the only one that can help me. Don't visit your kids."

[00:52:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:52:46] Jordan Harbinger: "They don't appreciate you," you know? I don't know.

[00:52:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an awful place to be, I do not envy him, but if they're not in love anymore, if she's not treating him kindly, if he's not taking care of her well, then who is winning here? Again, I'm just confused, like, what's the point?

[00:53:00] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, I mean, he blew up his other life, right? So he's like, "Uh, this is what I have now, maybe I deserve it." I don't know if he's self-flagellating a little bit, possibly.

[00:53:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's possible.

[00:53:08] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, look, it's probably best for both of them to move on, as sad as it is.

[00:53:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I think he needs to find her new support if they're going to do that.

[00:53:15] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:53:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, you can't just ditch her in this state. Whether she's playing it up, whether she's contributing to her pain, she's in some form of pain, right? So that might be another thing you can help your dad think through, how to make sure she's set up before he leaves.

[00:53:28] Jordan Harbinger: You're nicer than me. But she must have some family members, insurance, benefits, whatever, something. Or maybe not, maybe that's why he feels stuck. It's a tough one. But I know there are definitely programs out there. Maybe he hasn't even looked into them.

[00:53:40] Anyway, we've talked a lot about your dad. You know, we haven't talked about as much as you and I think it's sweet. You want him to move closer to you and his siblings, especially given what he did to your family and that you were probably more aligned with your mom after the split.

[00:53:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:54] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like you've come a long way there. It sounds like you're a really good daughter.

[00:53:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although, it's so interesting, Jordan. That is another angle here, like there's a little part of me that wonders, is she maybe trying to get her dad back from the woman who took him from her?

[00:54:10] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting, hadn't thought about that, also don't blame her if that's the case.

[00:54:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: It just occurred to me. I do think her intentions are good. I mean, her dad is obviously not in a happy relationship. I'm not a big fan of this relationship either, but it's just something to explore, you know, whether the divorce and the way it played out might be playing a role in all of this now.

[00:54:28] Jordan Harbinger: Right, I mean, it sounds like this woman would be a problem, no matter how they got together, but you're right. The fact that Dad was cheating on Mom with her, and then he moved away to be with her, that's a wound, right?

[00:54:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: And now, the woman who broke up their home is turning out to be a bit of a nightmare.

[00:54:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:54:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, I could understand if our friend here is like, "Ha! See, she is a witch! Now ditch her and move out here with us and just get it over with already." And some of that might be informed by some legitimate anger she already felt toward this woman from the very start.

[00:54:58] Jordan Harbinger: Very interesting. I do see what you mean. That would be good for her to separate out just so she's totally clear on her motivation.

[00:55:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:55:05] Jordan Harbinger: I really do believe your heart's in the right place. I hope your dad can hear you on this. You said you're worried that you're not close enough to bring this up with him, but also maybe bringing this up with him is how you get a little bit closer. Maybe you guys will bond a little bit by being there for him and helping him navigate a very difficult decision. Whatever you do, let him lead, support him, and make sure he's doing right by this woman while also doing right by himself. And good luck.

[00:55:29] Okay, next up.

[00:55:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my late 40s and I've been single for five years after a 20 year relationship. I thought I had seen all the ills in the world of dating until my last boyfriend.

[00:55:44] Jordan Harbinger: Dun, dun, duh.

[00:55:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: We got along well, we never fought, and our chemistry was awesome. We spent holidays with our families, met each other's young children, saw each other regularly. I loved his kids, his family, his pets, and my kids liked him a lot, too. I never put any pressure on him for a long-term commitment. But I did tell him early on that that was my long-term goal. Then, one day, after 11 months as an exclusive couple, he seemed distant. When I asked him what was going on over text, he suddenly stopped responding to me. That was it. No matter how much I reached out, he wouldn't respond to me. There was nothing toxic in our relationship. No drama. No fighting. I thought he was such a good guy, too. As you can imagine, I was devastated. I would have respected a simple text and block instead of just being ignored. I now see him on the dating apps with thirst-trap-type pictures of himself. I get it, he probably knew we were coming up on a year and he clearly just wants to hook up with women. But I can't wrap my head around ghosting and how so many people think that this is an acceptable way to treat people they claim to care about. How could this person who told me he loved me every day suddenly disappear for no reason? And why do people do this? Signed, Haunted By This Partner I Wanted And Taunted By the Way He's Now Flaunting.

[00:57:08] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Oh, man.

[00:57:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's weird.

[00:57:11] Jordan Harbinger: I'm really sorry to hear that this happened. I'm a little stunned myself by all this.

[00:57:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Same.

[00:57:15] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, almost a year together, you're seeing each other all the time, you're deeply involved in each other's lives, you've met each other's families, each other's kids. And then he just straight-up ghosted you.

[00:57:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: After 11 months.

[00:57:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's, that's weird, man.

[00:57:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is next level.

[00:57:28] Jordan Harbinger: It is. My first impulse would have been to say, okay, hold up, what really happened? What are you leaving out?

[00:57:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:57:34] Jordan Harbinger: You say the relationship was really good. No fighting, good chemistry. I know we only have your word to go on here, but it sounds reasonable. Otherwise, why write in for advice when you know what, you know, well, then I did, you know, you wouldn't—

[00:57:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:57:45] Jordan Harbinger: We wouldn't be having this conversation if there was an obvious cause. Even if the relationship weren't perfect, it still doesn't give anyone an excuse to ghost their exclusive girlfriend of almost a year. That to me, it's unconscionable. I know this is like a new supposedly Gen Z thing, but not really. A lot of people are doing this. It's lame, man. It's disrespectful. It's hurtful. And I can't understand why somebody would do that.

[00:58:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I can't either. The only thing I can think of is that she said she never put any pressure on him for a long-term commitment, but she did say, "Hey, you know, this is my long-term goal." I kind of want to move in that direction. So maybe he felt that pressure and freaked out and bounced, but still even if there were some subtext there and some expectation, not a license to disappear on somebody you're dating for a year. It's just, I cannot wrap my head around it.

[00:58:31] Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely. The only conclusion I can come to here is that there's something wrong with this guy and he ghosted you to avoid a conversation that he found uncomfortable and frightening. And I know that's the answer you want. Like, oh yeah, he's broken. This is just weird. And look, I get it. Breakups are horrible even when they're relatively easy. But this is a grown-ass man. If you don't want to be in this relationship, sack up, tell the other person why, wish them well, and part on the best possible terms.

[00:58:55] To ghost a serious partner? That's something you do to somebody that you haven't met in real life yet on some dating app because you are crushing on somebody else, if that. This is not just a lack of basic manners, this is somebody who is deeply avoidant. And emotionally stunted. And frankly probably has some other issues that you don't even know about. So I completely understand why you feel so hurt and confused by it. The ghosting thing has gotten way out of hand, in my opinion. This is one of the more extreme examples of it.

[00:59:24] So why do people do this? Well, like I just said, I think they do it to avoid. It is as simple as that. The confrontation of breaking up with somebody is too daunting or awkward, so they just sidestep it completely. And I don't understand it personally, I can't wrap my head around it, it infuriates me when people ghost me. Even professionally, I think it's super unprofessional to do this. And I try not to do this to other people, even when I get random, terrible pitches from people. I always hit them with the thanks but not a fit right now. I mean, because I'm with you. I'd rather get an email or text saying sorry this isn't going to work out than to just be ignored. We're grown ups. We can handle it. It's not that bad. What's bad is not knowing where you stand with somebody. I mean, I wouldn't even, I would give more courtesy to somebody who casually emailed me.

[01:00:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:00:12] Jordan Harbinger: And this is your partner of 11 months. I mean, there's, it's just weird as hell.

[01:00:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then you're left without any explanation.

[01:00:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:00:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like this woman was, and just left to deal with a ton of confusion and uncertainty, and in the long term, those hurt way more than rejection.

[01:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I think it is in many ways far worse than the injury of being broken up with in the first place, yes.

[01:00:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know, like you said, this new generation really ghosts a lot. I mean, to be fair, our generation does it too.

[01:00:38] Jordan Harbinger: Our generation does it too, yeah.

[01:00:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: We kind of invented ghosting, but the one below us, I think, ran with it. I know it's somewhat accepted now in the dating world. It's just how people treat one another—

[01:00:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yuck.

[01:00:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: —but I find it very lame.

[01:00:49] Jordan Harbinger: But she's in her late 40s. She's older than us. I assume her ex was around the same age. So this clearly isn't just a, it's not a generational thing.

[01:00:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:00:56] Jordan Harbinger: This guy's emotionally stunted.

[01:00:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, there's something going on with him, but also this is a cultural thing and I think a digital age thing and I just, I for one do not like it.

[01:01:05] Jordan Harbinger: Obviously, me neither. It's easy for me to say as a happily married father of two who doesn't have to break up with or be broken up with by random Bumble dates—

[01:01:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[01:01:13] Jordan Harbinger: —every month.

[01:01:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:01:15] Jordan Harbinger: Not saying he was in that situation, but like I said, ghosting doesn't just happen in the dating world. It happens everywhere. I mean, I routinely am in email conversations with people who just decide to open every follow up and never respond, and I'm just thinking, this isn't even time management. You're just weird. You're just a dysfunctional person who doesn't know how to have an internet conversation.

[01:01:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, look, it happened to that listener a few months ago who kept getting ghosted by recruiters during her job search.

[01:01:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:01:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you remember that?

[01:01:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:01:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was causing her tremendous anxiety that it was going to happen again and again. And it was starting to, like, mess with her performance in these interviews and lose motivation for looking for a job. You know, you go on one date with somebody. And it's not a match, and you don't text them afterward, fine. That's not really ghosting, it's just not engaging after a casual first meeting. But if you go on three, four dates with somebody, you date them for a month or more, and you change your mind, you write them an email, you pick up the phone. It doesn't have to be this big, terrible thing. And then you know that you didn't leave them in limbo, and you clarify for yourself what position they have in your life, and you know that there's no bad blood between you. Just like everybody wins. But this idea that you're sparing yourself, and theoretically the other person, some kind of pain by just ghosting, is just not true. I mean, just look at this letter. I think it ends up hurting both parties more, in a way.

[01:02:30] Jordan Harbinger: I could not agree more. But candidly, I think you dodged a bullet here. I know it hurts.

[01:02:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:02:35] Jordan Harbinger: And a guy would treat you this way after a year? Not a partner you would want or deserve. He's on his own journey, which apparently includes posting cringy shirtless gym selfies on his Tinder account and going on two to four dates with women who don't expect much from him. Good freaking riddance.

[01:02:53] Soundbite: Ain't nobody got time for that!

[01:02:54] Jordan Harbinger: So go get you a man who dumps you to your face! No, I'm kidding. But get you a man who truly wants to be with you and is more than 11 years old emotionally. But yeah, when there's something difficult to work out, definitely look for a guy who can actually have a face-to-face conversation. That's the kind of person we should all strive to be.

[01:03:14] Gabriel, here's what's going to happen. She's going to hear this, and over the next week or two, she's going to think of all of the other crap this guy did that gave her the idea that he was a man-child.

[01:03:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[01:03:25] Jordan Harbinger: And it's all going to make more sense. Like, "Oh yeah, he did tell me that this happened at work and he lost this job because of that. And he's not talking to his brothers because of this and his parents are mad at him because of that." And she's going to be like, "Oh, this guy's actually just a toxic avoidant piece of crap. And I was just the next in line."

[01:03:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: 100 percent.

[01:03:42] Jordan Harbinger: I guarantee you that's going to happen.

[01:03:44] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Esther Perel and Matthew Dunn on Iranian Hit Squads if you haven't heard those yet. Good variety this week.

[01:03:55] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our Six-Minute Networking course. It's a hundred percent free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. It's about building relationships and then never talking to those people again for absolutely no reason that they can discern. You can find it for free at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[01:04:23] If you haven't signed up yet, check out our re-launched newsletter for the show, Wee Bit Wiser. I always want to say that with an Irish accent. It's basically a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900-plus episodes and apply it to your life. I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. I write it with Gabriel, so it's a lot of fun. We try to add some humor and some insight in there. And if you like Feedback Friday, you will like the newsletter.

[01:04:49] Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:05:07] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Michelle Tillis Lederman. Remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:05:39] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with geopolitics analyst Peter Zeihan.

[01:05:44] Peter Zeihan: We're kind of in this soft moment in history, where everyone's holding their breath and wondering if the next time there's an incident, the US is going to intervene or not, and I would argue we are not.

[01:05:54] Safety on the waves is what allows us to have the East Asian manufacturing model. Less than one percent of that shipping happens on land. And that is a recipe. for 1910s and 1930s style conflict. Countries are increasingly finding it in their best interest to kind of hoard what consumption they do have and not allow trade access to it, and then producing more locally. We were moving this way before the Ukraine war, before the Chinese started to break down, and before the German industrial model started to implode. This has just sped everything up.

[01:06:28] So we'll probably see significant drops in agricultural output next year, especially in the second half of next year, which should suggest that we're going to have significant problems with food supply on a global scale in the months to follow. I mean, the food issue is the issue that gives me nightmares, because I don't see a way to fix it. The biggest loser by far is China. Everything about China's functionality is dependent on a globalization and a demographic moment that has passed.

[01:06:53] I think we're in the final decade of the European Union because without that Russian energy, there is no German manufacturing model. And without the German manufacturing model, you don't have the money that is used to keep the EU in existence. The pace of the disintegration here is really difficult to wrap your mind around.

[01:07:10] We've had a really good run the last 75 years. It was never going to last, but it's, it's going to be a rough ride. So anyone who thinks this is going to be easy is wrong in every possible way.

[01:07:22] Jordan Harbinger: For more about how globalization and our way of life will change dramatically in the coming decade, check out episode 781 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:07:38] Laura Richards: You've met the CSIs, the detectives, the prosecutors, and the profilers. Now it's time for Crime Analyst. If you're interested in true crime that centers the victims, and you want expert insight and deep dive analysis, and you want to know how to prevent crime and advocate for yourself and others, congratulations, you've found your next podcast and people. Ride Shotgun with me, Laura Richards, world-renowned and award-winning criminal behavioural analyst who worked at New Scotland Yard and the FBI as we profile behaviour, deconstruct cases and identify the red flags to prevent murders in slow motion. Subscribe, download, and listen for free by searching for Crime Analyst wherever you listen to your podcasts. And subscribe to Crime Analyst on YouTube so you don't miss out on newsworthy cases including the Gilgo Beach Murders, Nicola Bulley, the Murdaugh Murders, the Idaho Murders, and Gabby Petito.