897: Is Friendship Defeated Because You Dry Cheated? | Feedback Friday

897: Is Friendship Defeated Because You Dry Cheated? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the white noise machine lulling you to sleep in this noisy room of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: You didn't have to make it a racial thing, but okay.

[00:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. White noise is in the type of noise, Gabriel, not the ethnicity. I wasn't calling you a Caucasian noise machine, although that would have been a much better roast than my sort of B-minus job I just did.

[00:00:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Much, much better. That's right.

[00:00:31] Jordan Harbinger: Aren't you technically half white, or is Middle Eastern considered—? I don't even know what's ethnicity now.

[00:00:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. It depends which form you're filling out and where you're filling that form out at.

[00:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:00:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess maybe you should have gone with mixed race noise machine.

[00:00:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Off-white noise machine. How's that?

[00:00:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Perfect. Have we gone cancelled yet? Or—

[00:00:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:00:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Should we just keep talking and digging ourselves into a hole?

[00:00:52] Jordan Harbinger: I say we put it down there because I've got sponsors to appease, but there is something interesting. You sparked something interesting with the form. It's like, is this a DMV form or are we talking like college grants? Because there's flexibility on some of these things.

[00:01:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

[00:01:04] Jordan Harbinger: All right. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from organized crime figures to hostage negotiators, astronauts, investigative journalists, and chess grandmasters.

[00:01:29] This week, we had Dr. Robert Waldinger on the very famous Harvard Happiness Study. It's gone for multiple generations. One of the best and longest-running longitudinal studies on what makes for a happy life. Of course, we're talking happiness and happy lives. Also this week, Captain Max Hardberger. Exactly what it sounds like. Captain Max Hardberger is a guy who repossesses big old ships. He literally re-steels giant tanker ships and container ships from hostile ports in other countries that have seized them illegally. We mentioned this guy in the Ian Urbina episode, then, tracked him down, found him, and interviewed him. We also had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on psychics and tarot Cards with David C. Smalley.

[00:02:09] On Fridays, though, we share listener stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and roast Gabe for his choice in headgear and/or inability to self-identify on government documents, apparently.

[00:02:21] By the way, Gabe, I've got another creepy travel story for you.

[00:02:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh great. I can't wait which mass grave. Did you pee in this time?

[00:02:28] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah, it's funny. You should ask because—

[00:02:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Did you really pee in a mass grave? I was kidding, but please tell me that is what happened in the story.

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: It does involve mass graves, but a couple of stories here, when I was like I think it was 21, 22, I went to Cambodia, and while I was there, I met an American who was on the run from the police, not only the American authorities, but also the Cambodian authorities.

[00:02:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ooh.

[00:02:47] Jordan Harbinger: He was a hitman, literally—

[00:02:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, damn.

[00:02:49] Jordan Harbinger: Just like an ex-military guy who killed people for money.

[00:02:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:02:52] Jordan Harbinger: And he lived in Cambodia. And he was traveling with two women that were younger than him. One was his wife who he abused and he talked about that all the time. And the other was her cousin who was like 14 or 15 years old and they wanted to like marry her off to me.

[00:03:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Okay.

[00:03:10] Jordan Harbinger: He was less like, "You should marry her." But he's like, "Yeah, you can marry a 15-year-old here. It's fine." I was like, "That's not my concern."

[00:03:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Cool, cool, cool. It's just a straight-up child bride sitch.

[00:03:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and he's like, "You can probably get some money out of her family if you marry her. That's how it works here."

[00:03:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's dark.

[00:03:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, what do you expect from a hitman who abuses his wife, I guess? But he introduced me to the Family Guy. It's not all bad. That was weird. He just wanted to sit in the hotel. He was afraid to go outside. So he just sat in the hotel, drank beer, and watched Family Guy DVDs.

[00:03:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm so glad you guys could share that together.

[00:03:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was quite the bond. Separately, I went to the killing fields, which is super, super messed up place. It's next to a school called, and I always get the name wrong, it's like Tuol Sleng, and it became a concentration camp during the Civil War, and there was an entire, it's not quite a cabinet, it's like a small church, it's like a shrine, I think is the word I'm looking for.

[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:04:00] Jordan Harbinger: Filled with tiny baby skulls that were all cracked. They were cracked because that's how they killed the babies.

[00:04:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: God.

[00:04:06] Jordan Harbinger: They whacked the kids against a tree, and it was raining when I went there, which is appropriate weather to go to the killing field. So you could see clothing—

[00:04:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:04:13] Jordan Harbinger: —and bones sticking out of the ground because the top layer of dirt, dust, whatever, washed away. And there was like teeth lying in the dirt, and it was just this horrible sort of spectacle. That's burned into my mind, and I talk more about that in an upcoming episode, I think it's airing in October, about my trip to Cambodia.

[00:04:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow, that is quite an image.

[00:04:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, it was like going to a concentration camp in Germany, but instead of like, here are the shoes and here's the hair, which is very striking—

[00:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:38] Jordan Harbinger: —you're stepping on people's bones, because they're just still there, and teeth, and it's really—

[00:04:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Visceral?

[00:04:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Another story, also Cambodia, I crossed the border into Cambodia from Vietnam on a riverboat in the jungle, and we had several hours to wait in this village, and they were like, "Don't go in the jungle. You know, walk around the village, enjoy, but don't go in the jungle because there are landmines." And I'm just thinking, there are little kids running around everywhere and there's just landmines out there and nobody kind of knows where they are.

[00:05:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:05:07] Jordan Harbinger: And they explained that like animals find them and step on them and kids find them and play with them or step on them and they're taught from an early age not to do that but despite the jungle being kind of well traveled you just never know. There's mud one day, there's mud not.

[00:05:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:19] Jordan Harbinger: You step next to a tree, no one's ever stepped there since 1975, you step in a landmine. And also, in my hotel, I couldn't get the hot water working. So there's this tankless water heater basically, and I turned it on while standing in the water and I was fiddling with it cause I wanted hot water. And I got this crazy electric shock, burn your hands level, electric shock. And one of the reasons I'm probably still alive is that I was wearing shower shoes which you should always do in a hotel that has open exposed wires in the bathroom. Generally, you should wear shower shoes because they don't always sanitize but it lessened the shock. I think if I had straight up touched this metal while standing in what I assume is a paint-coated metal tub I would have possibly died there. So, that was fun.

[00:06:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: That bathtub was your own little killing field.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: It was, yeah. And Cambodia, man, is such a beautiful country, but man, such a dark past and such cold showers. Phew. The reason it's fresh of mind is just because I talk about it in a future episode and I was just, and now I'm like having dreams about Cambodia and my time there.

[00:06:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:06:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I are both friends with this guy and his wife. Recently, I developed an extremely inappropriate relationship with the man that involved pictures, videos, and sexual acts we would do together someday. And it escalated to rubbing against each other once when we were alone. This has all ended, and I told my husband about what went down between us. He thanked me for telling him and said it was a wake-up call. That something was missing in our relationship. Clearly, he doesn't want anything to do with them anymore, and I have to respect that. The dilemma is, his wife, my friend, does not know that we messed around, nor do I think it would be good for anybody if she found out. I feel absolutely guilty maintaining a friendship with her, but I also don't know how to end the friendship without explaining why we can't be friends anymore. It doesn't seem right to just ghost her or avoid her until she gives up. She didn't do anything wrong. I wish I could turn back time and have this not have happened. What would you do? Signed, Trying to Dodge the Consequences of This Frottage.

[00:07:29] Jordan Harbinger: Frottage? What does that mean?

[00:07:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like dry humping, basically.

[00:07:34] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, we're doing French now?

[00:07:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm trying to keep things fresh. What do you want from me? I will dip into any language if I have to.

[00:07:41] Jordan Harbinger: I do appreciate that. I'm just wondering why you know the French term for dry humping, man.

[00:07:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: We don't need to get into that right now, I don't think—

[00:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: You're hitting the Danielle Steel a little hard over there, huh?

[00:07:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, just picking up obscure sex words from my vast romance novel collection. Mm-hmm, that's where I get the sign-offs.

[00:07:58] Jordan Harbinger: You're sure it's [frȯ-ˈtäzh]? Because it's like, is that like [frȯ-tij]?

[00:08:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, it's [frȯ-ˈtäzh], definitely.

[00:08:05] Jordan Harbinger: All right, have fun this weekend at your cottage, wearing your cottagecore pajamas and flannel shirts.

[00:08:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah, I'll be wearing my corsage.

[00:08:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, this is so dumb.

[00:08:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: What are talking about? This is so lame.

[00:08:17] Jordan Harbinger: So dumb. Let's dry hump this letter, shall we?

[00:08:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: So this is obviously a bit of a mess. You managed to stop this affair before it went too far. Like our last joke about frottage. You came clean to your husband. Sounds like you guys are navigating this fairly well. I think that was probably the right move, but there's this loose end with your friend and that's really tricky. And candidly, I don't know if there's one right move here. Option one is you tell your friend what went down between you and her husband and you explain why you can't be friends anymore and you accept the consequences, which might/probably will mean blowing up their marriage or at least sending it into a crisis. Option two is you pull away from her and you avoid her and essentially ghost her until she gives up, which probably feels cruel and will obviously leave her with some big unanswered questions. Unanswered questions, by the way, that might lead her to confront her husband about why you guys ditched them which might unravel this whole affair anyway.

[00:09:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[00:09:16] Jordan Harbinger: And I suppose there's a third option here, which is you convince your husband to remain friends with these people somehow, or at least let you remain friends with her. But then that doesn't solve your problem about sitting on this frankly horrible secret, and I can't imagine that friendship is going to be healthy or fun. And if she finds out about the affair later, which she easily could, I mean this stuff comes out eventually, right?

[00:09:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:09:37] Jordan Harbinger: Then it's going to be even more of a nightmare, and she's going to feel really betrayed by you, and like the whole thing was fake. My feeling is that option one is actually your best bet, although it's definitely the hardest for you now. And as painful as this is, and I can hear the turmoil you're in about all of this, I understand that you have a lot of regret, but you did make your bed and now you got to sleep in it.

[00:09:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or, you know, you rubbed against the jeans.

[00:10:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.

[00:10:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: And now you got to wash them. I don't know, this idiom doesn't actually work with dry humping, so I'm going to back off of it immediately.

[00:10:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it just depends on how dry things really are, but the analogy gets—

[00:10:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Gross.

[00:10:09] Jordan Harbinger: —gross fast, so we're just going to stop right there. And if you want to manage this situation with the most integrity, then I do think you need to come clean to this woman. And that means tolerating whatever comes back, which I'm guessing is not going to be pretty. I would not do this at Starbucks or the mall. Who knows? Maybe she'll be weirdly understanding and forgiving like her husband was. It's possible. But in all likelihood, she is going to take this as a major betrayal, which it is, and be quite angry and heartbroken about it. That's the price you pay for not having to live with this secret.

[00:10:42] And you're welcome to go with option two, but it comes at a totally different cost. Namely, a lot of unresolved stuff in this friendship, and a big question mark about what ghosting this woman is going to do to her. She's probably going to hurt, but in a different way, she's going to spend time blaming herself and being confused. And like I said, still no guarantee she'll never find out. Just know that you won't be doing much for your guilt here, if anything you're adding to it, and I say come clean. It's going to suck, but do it.

[00:11:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're right, Jordan. I think you're right. She has a very difficult conversation ahead and a really rough period ahead, but that's the price of admission putting this behind her, right? These are the consequences of cheating that most people just discount or ignore in advance, but this is a really good example of what you're left with when it all comes to light. My only caveat is, if she does decide to tell this woman, she might want to give her husband, this woman's husband, a heads up because he's the one who's really going to have to deal with the fallout. She gets to walk away and not talk to this woman ever again, but he has to actually confront this with his wife. That's not going to be pretty, either.

[00:11:46] Jordan Harbinger: No, it's not. So you think she owes that to him? After her husband told her that he doesn't want them to have any contact with the couple anymore?

[00:11:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if she owes it to him. I don't think she really owes him very much. Honestly, their obligations to each other at this point are clear to me. But I do feel like it might be a considerate thing to do. It feels weird to say that.

[00:12:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Considerate, given that she carried on with her friend's husband. If I were this guy, I think I would probably appreciate a warning that my life was about to be blown up. That's where I'm coming from.

[00:12:14] Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. I also hear a guy who sexted and frottaged with his friend's wife and seems perfectly content sitting on that secret, so I don't know how much consideration. He really deserves.

[00:12:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:12:25] Jordan Harbinger: We know he's sitting on the secret because the wife's like, "Let's do brunch." It's like—

[00:12:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:12:28] Jordan Harbinger: —she does not know what happened, for sure.

[00:12:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a very fair point. And that's another thing she can decide for herself because now her interests are probably not aligned with this other guy's interests. And so she has to decide if she can put hers first. But still, I don't see how sending him a text saying, "This is what I have to do to move on with my life. I'm sorry. And we can't speak anymore. Good luck." I don't see what harm that's going to cause.

[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: Speaking of her husband though, I'm also a bit curious about his response that he took it so well and said it was a wake-up call that something was missing in their relationship. If that's true, and this is something they can really work through together, wonderful. I'm aware that she's not asking for our input there, but that just jumped out at me. I'm surprised by this.

[00:13:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hard to say what that means. I'm kind of with you. Part of me is like, well, if this really did reveal some issues in their relationship and he can forgive her, maybe because they didn't go all the way or whatever, then great, but then they really should be doing some work together as a couple to understand how they ended up here. And what needs to change if he's just going, "Ah, this is too awful. I need to forgive you so I can feel better and just forget this ever happened." That's a different story.

[00:13:32] Jordan Harbinger: I'm thinking about that guy from last week who found out—

[00:13:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:13:35] Jordan Harbinger: —his girlfriend had cheated on him with her boss and he was wrestling—

[00:13:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:13:37] Jordan Harbinger: —with whether to forgive her all that.

[00:13:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Yep. There's that temptation to fast forward through something painful and just let somebody off the hook to avoid the tension. But hanging in the tension, that's part of that work. Anyway, I think our take here is if you and your husband are willing to work through this and stay together, just make sure that you're not avoiding anything important. Make sure you're really talking about this. and growing as a couple so this doesn't just get buried and fester and come out down the road because nobody wanted to address it now. That's basically the advice.

[00:14:06] Jordan Harbinger: Amen on that, Gabe. And I'm very sorry you find yourself here. I know it's an awful place to be. And to your credit, you really do sound contrite and ashamed. And it does sound like you're open to growing. It's a crappy situation, no matter how you slice it. But generally speaking, you can't go wrong by being honest. What's that phrase? Like the coverup is always worse than the crime.

[00:14:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: You just have to be strong enough to lead with integrity on this one. And to Gabe's point, you got to be thoughtful about how this news will impact everyone involved, but also. If this guy is the type to cheat and then live with that secret, would it be the worst thing for your friends to know that? Is their relationship ever really going to work? It's an interesting question.

[00:14:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a really good point I had not considered. Yep.

[00:14:49] Jordan Harbinger: Come on, man, right? It's another one that I would sit with as you make this decision, and all the luck.

[00:14:55] You know, what else you're going to want to rub up against? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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[00:17:16] Thank you for listening and supporting the show. All deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals or use the AI chatbot right there on the website. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

[00:17:28] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:17:31] Okay, what's next?

[00:17:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My daughter is 22 years old. After graduating high school, she attended community college for a semester. She did not do well—

[00:17:42] Jordan Harbinger: Excuse me, it's collage. It's French.

[00:17:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: After graduating high school, she attended community [collage] for a semester. She did not do well—

[00:17:53] Jordan Harbinger: There we go.

[00:17:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: During her second [semeste], she decided to, that's semester, she decided to transfer to a university. That also did not work out. She now has thousands of dollars of debt, and because she failed out, she owes the university money that was not covered by student loans. She cannot go to any school until she pays back the university. She's also in her fourth apartment. Each time she moves it's because she can't pay her rent. Now, she can't move into the apartment she just signed a lease for, because she can't pay what she owes the electric company. Against my advice, my dad loaned her the deposit and the first month's rent to secure the apartment. Before moving into this apartment, I recommended she move back home with me until she's financially stable enough to live independently, but she declined. She's also been through several jobs, many of which pay well. None of them have lasted longer than six months. A few months into each job, she talks about how her co-workers are rude and management criticizes her. She's then fired, typically for missing too many days. My husband, a self-employed carpenter, hired her on two different occasions to help boost her income. But she didn't take the work seriously, and he let her go. She refuses to work a second job to help herself. When she moved out after high school, she did well. She paid her bills. Her credit was in good standing. She financed a vehicle on her own. About a year and a half ago, the engine in that car failed and the car was not under warranty. It was then that I learned that her credit had gone from good to very bad in a very short time. I made the mistake of financing a vehicle for her in my name. She has defaulted on that loan many times. Earlier this year, I told her she had to repay me for the back payments and missed insurance payments. If she couldn't, I would have to repossess the car and sell it to pay the loan off. I'm now overwhelmed by guilt, as she's currently a home health aide and needs a car to do her job. I'm worried that I'll lose what's left of my relationship with my daughter if I take the vehicle. I offered to pay for therapy and psychiatry appointments, but she insisted she didn't need help. When she finally made the appointments, she didn't show up. I've talked with her friends, one of whom is also very concerned and ruled out substance abuse and ensured that she isn't at risk for suicide or self-harm. When I try to talk to my daughter about all of this, she becomes belligerent and accuses me of being an awful mother who verbally abused her as a teenager, which did not happen. I was so upset by what she said that I asked my husband if I was in denial about her teenage years. I actually saw a therapist to ensure that I was not repressing something. There was nothing there. I wasn't a perfect mom, but I love my daughter, and she had the best upbringing we could afford with a lot of love. I was 15 when I had her and moved out. She's seen me work very hard, often working two or three jobs to make ends meet and obtain my bachelor's degree before I finally achieved a career in financial services. She wasn't raised to act entitled. What should I do? Should I take the car and let her figure it out? Are there other ways I can get my daughter some mental and financial help? Should I feel this guilt about her situation when she's been given multiple opportunities to get her life back on track? Signed, In a Sweat About This Debt and Left to Fret Over The Safety Net.

[00:21:04] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, man, this is tough, man. Watching your children struggle, it's just got to be one of the hardest experiences as a parent. And my kids are still so young. I haven't quite seen that yet. Maybe in small ways, you know, they get a cold, and they don't want to blow their nose, they have a tantrum, they don't want to go to school, they don't want to go to the restaurant, whatever. But I hear from parents of older kids that it's really hard. There's that tricky balance between wanting to step in and protect your child, fix their life, and hanging back and respecting their autonomy, and letting them figure things out on their own. And it's not an easy line to walk. And I always think like, what did my parents do? And was that the right thing to do? And you're like, I don't know. Did they do anything? I don't know. Or like, I could have used some help there. Thanks a lot.

[00:21:43] So your daughter, she's an interesting character, isn't she? She's struggling financially. She can't seem to get on top of her living situation, her payments, all that. But then she also struggles to hold down a job. She doesn't seem willing or able to put in the work to climb out of the debt. And it sounds like she struggles to get along with her colleagues. In fact, her relationships with people, in general, just sound, I don't know, Gabe, something's going on here. She's inconsistent, she's combative, hypersensitive, maybe even, can I say mildly paranoid? Like the people at the office are criticizing me. It's hard to know. Exactly how she's showing up at work, but it sounds to me like her relationships are all very fraught and they're very precarious and her track record kind of speaks for itself there.

[00:22:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: And you see that dynamic with our friend here and her husband and even the therapist and the psychiatrist that her mom arranged for her, right? Like they're trying to help her and she is pushing back hard or she's straight up dodging their help. She's not showing up to these appointments, which is very telling. I don't know. I'm guessing that that speaks to how daunting it might be for her to acknowledge that she needs help. Or maybe she's just afraid of what might come up in those sessions. That's possible too.

[00:22:51] Jordan Harbinger: I think so. I think that's probably a big part of it because you know, I've had friends who are super together and then something traumatic happens and it changes everything.

[00:22:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:00] Jordan Harbinger: It's usually a major red flag, especially in young people when their grades go down and they don't want to go to school and they can't follow on their goals and their relationships get difficult. And I have some real life examples of this from my life, like a friend who's like a go-getter and a real career, just going for it, and then like she gets assaulted or something like that and the whole dynamic changes and she's like smoking and doing drugs all the time and doesn't go to college.

[00:23:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:23:22] Jordan Harbinger: I have a small suspicion that something happened shortly after she moved out because everything seems to have changed overnight and maybe that's not the full story. But it does sound like something shifted around them, and maybe she just couldn't handle not having Mom around and being alone. That's possible, but then, I don't know, man, Mom's still around now and that's not getting fixed.

[00:23:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I think it's a very fair theory. I mean, her mom might not know everything she's been through. She's just seeing the shift and trying to piece it together.

[00:23:48] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I also wonder if there might be more to it than that. Because here she is, the daughter, turning around and accusing her mom of verbally abusing her when that doesn't seem to be the case.

[00:23:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know we only have your story to go on here. I get that. But it sounds like you really took that to heart and you sought out help and you chased it down with a professional and it just wasn't true.

[00:24:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was expecting her to be like, "Aah, I never did that. She's just a sensitive brat." Then I'm like, oh, you probably definitely did that.

[00:24:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:24:16] Jordan Harbinger: But it's like, "Oh, I asked everyone and then went to a therapist and relived my entire motherhood experience," and that didn't happen.

[00:24:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: As long as she didn't go to a Lydia who—

[00:24:24] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:24:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: —just validated whatever she said.

[00:24:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:24:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: The legit therapist that could be real.

[00:24:27] Jordan Harbinger: It's fine. She's a former MMA fighter that takes kicks to the head and said, "Your kids need tough love. It's all good." Look, even if it were true, your daughter would still at some point need to take accountability for her life.

[00:24:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's also a very fair point. What I'm curious about though is, were there other aspects of her childhood that might have shaped who she is, how she's behaving now? Her mom was 15 when she had her. That's very young. It sounds like she had very little support. She said she moved out of her home. She had to work extremely hard to finish her degree and make ends meet. She said that her daughter wasn't raised to act entitled. That is quite an upbringing. And yes, her daughter had a beautiful example of hard work and tenacity and discipline, for sure. But there might have also been some tough experiences in there as well. Maybe a sense of stress and instability. Maybe a feeling like she wasn't allowed to speak up if she was scared or struggling, especially if her mother considered that to be entitled in some way. Or maybe our friend here was so on top of her life, so capable, that she didn't always teach her daughter how to be that way for herself. I realize I am wildly speculating here. I could be so off. And I'm not trying to tell you how you raised your daughter. You know that better than we do. I'm just appreciating that while you probably didn't do some of the terrible things your daughter is accusing you of, she might be wrestling with other parts of her childhood, and she might not even know what those are. And you're the easiest person for her to get mad at.

[00:25:55] Jordan Harbinger: So that's also a fair point. These things are rarely as simple as they seem, but even if that's true, I still feel it's her daughter's responsibility to work on that.

[00:26:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. The problem is her daughter is making it very difficult to help her.

[00:26:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, impossible, I would say, right now, anyway. So my feeling is, I think it's time to let your daughter work things out in her own way. You and your husband have done pretty much every conceivable thing to help her. You've given her a place to stay. You've given her work, you've given her money, you've given her financial advice, you've given her therapy, you've given her a soft landing over and over again. And her response in a number of different ways is like, "No, thank you."

[00:26:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:29] Jordan Harbinger: And I think it's time to listen to her. As I said at the top, this is going to be really hard to do because respecting that it means making peace with where she is in her life, who she is. acknowledging you cannot fix her or make her situation better overnight on your own, that she's in the driver's seat. It's just a really tough pill to swallow for any parent, especially because it's a girl. It's not like, well, he'll be couch surfing with his friends. He's tough. It's like, uh, it's a girl and she's just going to be alone in the world. This is terrifying.

[00:27:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: That might be part of their special bond. That's true. And coming to terms with all of that might feel like a huge hit to you as a mother, especially a mother who takes great pride in being hardworking, in being responsible, and again, in not appearing entitled, which might be why you have worked so hard to help her. But who knows, that could also be part of the reason that she resists you. Because your interventions are confirming that something is wrong, which your daughter does not like to hear. And that she's letting you down, in addition to letting herself down.

[00:27:30] Jordan Harbinger: Right, okay, I could see that compounding her daughter's anger and shame. Cause she might hear these offers to help as, "I need you to be better so that I can feel okay."

[00:27:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: And that's not intentional, on mom's part. I think it comes from a good place. And her daughter does need to be better.

[00:27:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:27:46] Jordan Harbinger: But that might be one of the ways this message gets contorted.

[00:27:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. I also think her guilt is very meaningful. That feeling speaks to a sense of extreme responsibility for her daughter that might not be appropriate or necessary anymore. When we feel guilty about someone or something, it's because we feel we have done something wrong, right? But what she's thinking about doing here sounds to me just like being responsible and being fair, like with the car loan, so she doesn't compromise herself financially. But that feels like she's hurting her daughter or letting her daughter down in some way. Maybe even abandoning her in some sense, which I completely understand because again, you never want to watch your child suffer, much less be the person who's causing their pain. But what our friend here needs to consider, I think, is why do these reasonable choices, which, by the way, you did not arrive at lightly. I mean, you really tried here before getting to this point. Why do they go from being just sad or difficult to producing guilt? I think the guilt speaks to a very old agreement between the two of you. That you would take care of her at all costs. And to your point, Jordan, what she's actually confronting here is, is that entire model for our relationship even correct?

[00:28:57] Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly right. This isn't just about, do I let my daughter struggle financially? It's, what role do I actually need to play in her life? And what does rewriting that role mean for me?

[00:29:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:29:09] Jordan Harbinger: So to answer your questions, If the car is seriously compromising your finances and your credit and paying for it doesn't feel fair to you, I think you're well within your rights to take the car back. You don't have to be cruel about it, but you can be firm. Maybe you give her a month so she can come up with a plan or get a bus pass or whatever, but then you repo that thing. And I don't think you can do much to get your daughter psychological or financial help at this point. It doesn't sound like it. All you can do is gently encourage her to seek the support that you feel she needs which she might not always appreciate hearing that and just let her find her own way. And obviously, no, I don't think you need to feel this profound guilt when you've given your daughter multiple opportunities to get her life on track. You have truly gone above and beyond here. But that doesn't mean your guilt is unreasonable or unimportant. I actually think it might be the most important part of your story. And exploring that guilt, figuring out where it started, whether it's still appropriate, I think that's your work to do. So in a way, you and your daughter both have some, can I say growing up to do?

[00:30:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:30:13] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds condescending. I don't mean it that way. It's going to be hard. And it's also a wonderful thing. At this point, the greatest gift you can give each other is the freedom to evolve and find a new dynamic. Hopefully, this is some crap she's going to outgrow. That's the last thing I'll throw in there, right? I think maybe she needs to be pushed out of the nest and it's like, oh, you know what? I can do this on my own and I did and it took three years and that was it. So hopefully, that's what it is. I'm sending you a hug. I'm wishing you and your daughter all the best.

[00:30:42] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes things a whole lot easier. If you slept with your best friend's partner, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, your complicated ex is facing a possibly fatal illness, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:31:06] Okay, next up.

[00:31:07] Oh, and by the way, this segment is sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks to Haesue Jo, head of clinical operations at BetterHelp.

[00:31:13] All right, Gabe, take it away.

[00:31:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. For the past 10 years, I found it really difficult to sleep in new environments. At home, I sleep just fine, but new places send my brain into some kind of crazy mode, which is really affecting my mood and energy and taking the joy out of travel, which is the greatest love of my life. This feeling is definitely not excitement. Physically, the feeling is of high alertness, like there's a light switched on in my head, like having had too much coffee or taking an upper. There's also a strong sense of, "This is going to be fun for everyone else, but I'm just going to be grumpy and exhausted." I'm disappointed about having to struggle through the day, which also makes me feel like I'm missing out. I think to myself, why can't I do the most basic thing a human being should be able to do? Sleep. I get worried about my health too, like, my heart probably can't take the combination of travel and not resting. I also hate the fact that this makes me a difficult travel companion or guest. Asking for a separate room, going to bed early, wanting to follow my bedtime routine, getting up 20 times a night to get earplugs, use the bathroom, take another sleeping pill, and so on. But, it's also an emotional thing. Talking about sleeplessness, not wanting to go to a bar or drink at dinner because alcohol makes things worse, and just giving off sad, tired vibes. No one has outright told me that I'm difficult, but I have gotten comments like, "Ah, if you only thought about it less, or young parents feel like that all the time." To make matters worse, this affects my relationships too. My ex mostly slept on the sofa since I couldn't sleep with him in the same bed. I've been single for three years, and I think this is one of the reasons. I feel like no one is worth losing sleep over, literally. I've looked into all sorts of home remedies, consulted a sleep expert, and even seen a shrink who thinks that I'm not an insomniac, but rather a hypersensitive sleeper. But these experts advice on lavender and breathing exercises does nothing for me when I'm lying awake at 4 a.m. thinking about the next day. In a couple months, I'll be going to a new city to stay in a digital nomad co-living place for a month. I'm really looking forward to it, but I'm also dreading the sleep thing. What should I do? What do I try next? How do I stop constantly worrying about all of this? Signed, Tossing and Turning While My Mind is Churning Over These Concerning Yearnings.

[00:33:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is an interesting problem. I can definitely appreciate why the sleep thing is causing you so much distress. Not sleeping well is, well, it's stressful. It's debilitating, especially when you're in a new place. And I'm definitely hearing what sounds like pretty classic anxiety in your letter. And I know anxiety can be all consuming and challenging, so let's see if we can unpack it a little bit. We wanted to consult with an expert on your question, so we spoke with Haesue Jo, licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp, the world's largest online therapy service. You've heard of them, they sponsor the show.

[00:34:09] And Haesue and Gabe and I, we all zeroed in on the same theme here, which is that the way these thoughts arise and then the way they interact with one another, that seems to be driving a lot of the anxiety. So, let's break this down for a moment. On one level, there's just the reality of your sleep problem. "I don't sleep well, especially in new places. I run a little anxious. I'm kind of tired a lot," right? Then, a new thought develops on top of that. "I should be able to sleep like everyone else and I can't," which is not unreasonable, but let's just notice how that thought arises. And then, on top of that thought, new thoughts and feelings start to creep in, "This is going to be fun for everyone else, but I'm just going to be grumpy and exhausted and now I'm disappointed and I feel like I'm missing out." Then it sounds like there are some additional beliefs on top of those, namely, "I'm compromising my health. Something bad is going to happen to me one day because of this." And then, on top of that belief, there are all these other core beliefs about yourself. I think she said, "I can't do the most basic thing a human being should be able to do, which is sleep. I'm a difficult travel companion, I'm a bad guest, no one's going to want to date me, there's something wrong with me." So what I'm hearing, then, is a lot of self-consciousness, self-recrimination, and actually some shame.

[00:35:24] And there's even another layer on top of all of that, which comes in when people minimize your sleep problems. The thoughts that develop there are, "Great, so I really am difficult. And not only do I have this very real problem, but nobody takes me seriously, so I must not deserve to feel bad about this." And then, you start drawing more conclusions, which are yet more thoughts; namely, "This sleep is ruining travel for me, the greatest love of my life. So great, no friends, no partner, and now I can't even have this." And all of those stories are feeding off one another, and they reinforce the original anxiety that made you restless to begin with, and it's just a really awful feedback loop that seems impossible to get out of.

[00:36:06] As Haesue put it to us, one thought can lead to three other thoughts that create the distress. Even more than the original sleep problem itself. And boy, do I get that, because I have been there. Not with sleep per se, although I've had my fair share of sleep problems, but with anxious thoughts in general. This is extremely common. But the reason I wanted to parse those thoughts is, I think it's really important to pick apart the individual beliefs and notice how they develop. Because when you isolate them like that, then you can ask yourself, you know, is that actually true? Is that belief definitely supported by the previous belief? Is there another conclusion I could be drawing here? Could multiple things be true? Am I talking about a fact? Or am I talking about an interpretation?

[00:36:51] Point being, if you interrogate the individual thoughts that create this larger experience of "I can't sleep in new places and it's ruining travel for me," then you're not just being assailed by generalized anxiety and sadness which can be very hard to work on. Instead, you're working on the thoughts that feed that anxiety. You're interrogating the chain of logic, logic in big air quotes, that creates this overwhelming experience. And what often happens is, you begin to shift your relationship to those thoughts or you find new ones, maybe friendlier ones, and that can go a very long way in reducing the anxiety.

[00:37:28] So, to be a little more concrete here, let's look at a few of those thoughts once again. You said, "I don't sleep well in new places. I run a little anxious. I'm tired a lot." Fine, no argument there. That's the reality right now. Those could just be facts. Then, the next thought, "I should be able to sleep like everyone else." Well, maybe, maybe not. I totally get why you feel that way. But the fact is, you're not sleeping like everyone else, for now anyway. Wishing you slept normally, eh, not going to change by itself. Is it possible that you should not sleep like everyone else? Could it be true that you're just an atypical sleeper, and you have to get your Zs in your own way? And that's okay, something to think about. Then there's that next thought, "This is going to be fun for everyone else, I'm just going to be grumpy and exhausted." Well, maybe you will be tired the next day, but are you grumpy just because you're tired, or are you grumpy because you can't stop thinking that you shouldn't be grumpy, and I've been there too.

[00:38:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. Yeah, I'm very curious to know what would happen if you just showed up to your day as a tired person sometimes, and you felt whatever you felt. And you didn't label it too much, and I'm not saying you're not going to feel tired anymore, but you might not feel as bad about being tired, which, by the way, also a great way to make yourself yet more tired.

[00:38:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. The second you experience that fatigue, it's not just a physical sensation, it's a thought. And that thought that you're missing out, that's something separate from the physical sensation. That's now becoming a story. And we could do something similar for all of those thoughts. Like that core belief, "I can't do the most basic thing a human being should be able to do. There's something wrong with me." Well, is that actually true? Millions and millions of people out there struggle with their sleep. So at a minimum, this is not just a you problem. So I'm not so sure that there is even a should here, really. But more practically, do you really need to beat yourself up for this? And this is a genuine question. It's hard enough to be anxious. It's hard enough to be groggy. Do you also need to tell yourself that you are failing? Is believing that you're failing helping you get to sleep? Now, you might say, "Fine, I hear you, Jordan, but that's what my brain is telling me." And I'm saying, absolutely, I get it, but what do you think? Have you considered what failing means to you? Because if you did this exercise on that thought, I bet you'd start to question whether even this failing idea holds any water.

[00:39:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, yeah, right. And as for the whole, "This sleep thing is taking the joy out of travel, which is the greatest love of my life." Again, I have a similar question. Is it? Is it really? Or are your thoughts taking the joy out of travel. More importantly, are you really losing the greatest joy of your life? Or are you still participating in the greatest joy of your life? But you're just doing it as a tired person sometimes, and that's okay.

[00:40:17] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. That's what we're talking about here. Digging into these beliefs, parsing them out before they, to use Haesue's word here, before they solidify. And look, I'm not saying, just do this for 30 minutes one afternoon and your anxiety will melt away. That's not going to happen. This could be an ongoing process for the rest of your life. It is for most people. But I really do believe that if you unpack the thoughts, try exploring new ones, yeah, you might find the anxiety eases up.

[00:40:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: And even if the nighttime anxiety remains, the daytime anxiety about the nighttime anxiety, that will probably ease up, which might get you to the same place. And I also say that from personal experience. Been there.

[00:40:55] Jordan Harbinger: And if you need help doing this, then taking this into therapy would be a great idea because all these thoughts and feelings have deep roots. They always do. And it can be really helpful to have a professional holding up a mirror and exploring them with you. So that's the cognitive piece of this, but Haesue also explained there might be a physical component to all this, and certain practical techniques you could explore.

[00:41:16] So, first of all, and I know this is super obvious, but it's worth calling out, keep an eye on your lifestyle, try to wake up and go to bed at the same time every day, even if you're tired, don't drink caffeine after like 2 p.m. maybe don't drink it at all. Probably don't have a huge dinner before you go to bed, try not to eat within, you know, three, four hours of going to bed, although there's some mixed data on that, exercise regularly, get some movement in several times a week. That is super important. Try to do it early in the day when you get the most benefit, and maybe don't go for a 45-minute run an hour before you try to go to bed. You don't need that cortisol and whatever neurotransmitters flood your system during exercise right before you go to sleep. But beyond that, if you haven't seen a doctor about all this, you might want to give that a shot. And if you aren't getting the answers you need, you might need to advocate for yourself more. Ask for referrals to specialists. Press harder for a diagnosis. This is what a lot of patients with unusual symptoms have to do, and it can be very frustrating, but it is important.

[00:42:14] And hey, maybe you request a sleep study. They're often covered by insurance. That'll pinpoint any issues more specifically, or it could rule out any medical concerns. Maybe that'll help you put those specific worries to bed, pardon the pun. So, I would try all of these out until you see some progress. But the piece I'd really focus on is those thoughts. Because the thoughts are playing a huge role in the anxiety, no matter what, and learning to work with those thoughts, understand them, rewrite them, that is the key. So, I hope you get to do that and I hope you find some new insights that are true and meaningful for you. And, hey, good on you for not letting this hold you back from traveling. That's obviously super important to you. I love that you want to crack this so you can keep on living your life. So, dig into this stuff. I hope you find the relief you're looking for soon. And good luck.

[00:43:02] This segment was sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks again to Haesue Jo, head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Go to betterhelp.com/jordan to help support the show and get started. Haesue Jo's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Haesue's feedback is in response to a written question and therefore there are likely other unknown considerations given the limited context. Any personal opinions about a writer's life choices as well as any action-oriented advice come solely from the show. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses if that's important to you.

[00:43:42] You know what else will keep you up at night? The crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:43:52] Hey, you've heard me talk about this on the show before, probably a few months back, but I wanted to highlight this once again. I got an online trainer and I was highly skeptical of online fitness training, but about six, seven months ago through some business connections, I decided to give online training a shot. This has turned my entire life around in such a good way. You know, like I said, I was skeptical of online training. This has really delivered. I'm more flexible, I can play on the floor with my son a bunch, I can run around a ton, I can lift heavy things, I don't get back pain, I fixed some knee and hip issues that were starting to come up, which turned out to be because of an imbalance. I feel much healthier, I look better. I mean it's just like, really just flipped everything around for me. And I highly recommend anybody that's been like, "Oh, maybe I should get in shape." It's not just about losing weight. It's about getting stronger, functional fitness. You know, if you're spooked to go to the gym or your workouts are half assed, get a trainer. I'm telling you, uh, this company is called Wrkout. W-R-K-O-U-T.com, W-R-K-O-U-T.com. Usually, you get a free trial, but I love this company. So now if you tell them that I sent you, you'll get your first three sessions free and 20 percent off your first training package. Again, highly recommended, WRKOUT. com. Tell them I sent you to get a few free training sessions. That's W-R-K-O-U-T. So workout without the first O.

[00:45:12] Guys, I want to give a shout-out to one of my favorite YouTube channels. It's called The China Show. It's run by two of my friends, Laowhy86 and SerpentZA. Imagine picking those names a bunch of years ago and being like, this'll never be cringey. Winston and C-Milk, really good guys. I guess that's another name, C-Milk. There's a story there, I'm sure. These are great guys. They lived in China for 10 years, 14 years, respectively. They are incredibly versed with Chinese news. They do a roundup of things going on in China like AI and why people are going bonkers over ice cream. But also things like the Pentagon leak and what those documents have to do with Chinese policy. So it's not super nerd-alert when it comes to in-the-weeds policies and politics, but it's really interesting. They try to keep it funny and light as well. I watch pretty much every one of their videos that they put out. All these guys, especially The China Show episodes. If you want to stay up to date on China, if you want to get an idea for the threat that the Chinese Communist Party has, or just get a really cool and funny look into Chinese culture itself, then I definitely recommend The China Show. One recent video they did was on the state of AI in China, and it just kind of devolves into this funny cultural critique. So, definitely check out the link in the show notes. It's called The China Show. You can literally just search for The China Show on YouTube and you will find it. And let me know what you think. Good guys, great show.

[00:46:29] If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, those are in the show notes. They're also at jordanharbinger.com/deals in a very searchable way. You can only search for any sponsor and promo code using the now up-to-date, up-to-the-minute AI chatbot on the website as well. Or for the lazy, email us, we'll dig up the code for you. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going, it means a lot to us, personally and professionally.

[00:47:02] And now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:47:05] Okay, what's next?

[00:47:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Gabe and Jordan, I'm a 39-year-old woman, and I've struggled with body image issues since the 5th grade. I won't say that it's all my parents' fault. Growing up in the '90s had a massive impact on my self-perception. I'm in therapy now and we're tackling my body image issues. As a result, I've been more aware of random comments that my parents, who are in their 70s, make about other people's bodies. Do you have any suggestions on how to gently correct them when they make these comments? Signed, Confronting Ma and Pa About this Hurtful Faux Pas.

[00:47:41] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so I can definitely appreciate why these comments sting a little bit. Maybe more than sting, maybe they're quite hurtful, and when those comments are coming from your parents, they're extra charged. The '90s thing is interesting. I grew up partly in that era too, but as a man, I guess I've probably been less influenced or affected by body image stuff in the media. I mean, guys call each other names and you don't even know what's true because it's just all over the place. But I do know that it's real and I assume also that you're referencing those heroin-chic Calvin Klein ads and stuff like that. I just remember a lot of rib cages and these weird low-rise jeans and it's like, do your hip bones protrude and create a shadow that you can see? Because if not you're probably too big to wear these. It was just horrible. SlimFast, we had those diet pills, which are just amphetamines branded.

[00:48:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Fen-phen.

[00:48:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Dexatrim. That might be '80s. It's just that era where we weren't talking about things like body dysmorphia and eating disorders as much and they were all doing a lot to cause it, not a lot to remedy the problem. So it's tough. So I like your instinct to correct them gently. Because I could see them getting a little worked up if you snap at them over brunch or making a dig at the waitress or whatever. Especially, I mean, they're in their 70s. It might be a lot harder for them to see these comments in a new way and change their behavior. You could always say something like, "Hey, listen, I don't mean to be preachy or annoying here, but when you guys say stuff like that it makes me kind of sad, for the waitress, because what you said isn't very nice or kind to her, but for me, cause I feel like I'm taking in that comment too. And honestly, also for you guys, because comments like that are pretty negative and I worry that it puts you in a certain state of mind when we could just be hanging out and having a nice day and just appreciating this person for who she is or maybe just not even thinking about the server's appearance and/or personal health choices at all. It's your call. I'm not trying to police your thoughts or whatever, but I just want to point it out because maybe you guys don't even realize you're doing it and how it lands with other people."

[00:49:38] If you say something like that kindly, with a smile, with a lot of patience, I think it could go down the right way. Now, they might listen, they might not, it's up to them. My hope is they take all that in, sit with it, maybe talk about it together when they're alone and see if they can understand where you're coming from. It's also possible that this opens up a conversation with your parents. And if it does, then you might want to share a little bit about how comments like that have contributed to the body issues, but I don't think you need to go there in order to make your point. I think a lot of that is your work to do in therapy, which you're doing, and you can just share the headline at first and see how it goes.

[00:50:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that approach, Jordan. I think it's hard to go wrong when you're not being, like you said, finger waggy, you're just calmly calling something out, but to your point, her parents might not change or even listen. So, my only other thought is, you might want to keep separating the message from the messenger, and also, maybe more importantly, separate the message from you. When your parents say these things, you're obviously absorbing those messages, or you certainly were when you were a kid. Now, as an adult, you have much more of a choice. But that doesn't mean that these comments from your parents are for you, or that you need to take them to heart quite as much. When your parents say this stuff, I think they're actually communicating a lot more about themselves than they are about you, or these people they're commenting on, or how the world should be.

[00:50:59] It might be an interesting practice for you to let your parents say what they say, notice how it activates you a little bit and just tell yourself, "Oh, okay. Yeah, that's mom and dad doing that thing again. That's their stuff I'm just going to let that go and I'm going to come back to how I want to think about other people how I want to think about myself." It might not work all the time It might not fix this problem forever but at a minimum it might take some of the sting out of it. And ultimately, whether your parents listen to you or not you're the one who has to decide what to do with comments like this, which let's remember might still come from other people you encounter or culture, in general, even now and Those are sources that you will not be able to control whatsoever.

[00:51:40] Jordan Harbinger: Good point, Gabe. Some combination of gently addressing this with her parents and learning to let those comments roll off her back a little bit more seems like the right way to go.

[00:51:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:51:47] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm sorry. This is painful for you I think a lot of people can relate to it but I am proud of you for taking this into therapy and wanting to grow. I hope your parents are open to seeing things in a new way. It could be a great conversation.

[00:51:59] All right, next up.

[00:52:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I live in my hometown, a southern capital city with a great life. Good jobs, with strong companies, two wonderful elementary school-aged sons at a strong school, down the road from my mother, whom I'm very close to, and who helps a lot with the kids, and we just moved into our dream home about a year ago. I'm incredibly grateful for our life here. But I've been restless for several years now to make a move to a different state. My fear is that I'm having a "grass is greener" mentality and I don't want to uproot our family for something that that's not going to be that much more enriching and fulfilling. I could make arguments regarding the pros and cons for any new town or state and I can't decide if I'm just sick of my hometown that I've lived in for 90 percent of my life or truly excited about a fresh start in a new state with a substantially higher quality of living. Aside from the logistical considerations like cost of living, how would you decide whether a big move like this is right? Or is this a daydream that will come and go? Signed, Looking For the Right Rationale to Change Locales.

[00:53:07] Jordan Harbinger: It's a really good question and it's one that's close to home, no pun intended for me, because I've traveled and moved around a bunch in my life and I've asked myself the same question so many times.

[00:53:17] First of all, I do love your self-awareness about all this. You're being very thoughtful about why you want to move. Whether this move would really give you everything you're hoping for, which is a very real temptation. A lot of people, including me at various points, they just think moving to another place is going to solve all their problems. And I remember these thoughts really clearly. Like, when I move here, I'm going to have cool friends, and I'm going to have a better girlfriend, and I'm going to do this, and then this isn't going to be a thing anymore. And it's just, you think traveling or being in a new place is going to make you a completely different person? And there's just an element of escapism to that, that I think is invisible to a lot of us. There's a fantasy of hitting the reset button completely.

[00:53:53] Gabe, a couple of weeks ago, there was that guy who owned a dojo, got cancer, and was like, "I'm going to move to a tropical island, divorce my wife, and take my money." And then two years later, he's like, "Um, can I have my dojo back?" Because he was just the same kind of a-h*le, but in Barbados, and that was it.

[00:54:11] And to your point, there's often that "grass is greener" mentality that just really can lead you astray. But I got to say, it doesn't sound to me like that's what you're doing. It sounds to me like you have some very good reasons for exploring this move. And there's nothing wrong with a fresh start. You would have a substantially higher quality of living. You'd have a totally new experience. You'd see more of the country. Potentially give you and your family some new energy. And perhaps, most importantly, you're grateful for the life you have now, which tells me that you'd probably be grateful for the life you'd have there, too. And that is a great sign.

[00:54:47] That said, I do think it's important to have clear expectations about what a move is like. There's no such thing as a perfect place. You would have to give some things up, like being close to your mom, the house you love, possibly your jobs if they won't let you work remotely, and you'd gain a lot of other things. These opportunity costs are unavoidable. It all comes down to which things matter most to you and your family right now, which is really the question you need to be asking yourselves.

[00:55:14] Because you're right, your brain can argue both sides of this decision until the cows come home. And that's what your brain does. But at a certain point, you just have to say, this is what we're doing, we're staying, or we're moving, and we're going to embrace everything that comes with that, the upsides, the downsides, and probably a bunch of other stuff that we can't even anticipate.

[00:55:32] So my advice is, don't place too many expectations on this potential move to solve any major problems in your life, or make you guys completely different people. Or remove 100 percent of the restlessness that you might feel because wherever you go, there you are. That's a cliche for a reason. It's a, it's a hundred percent true. And you have to remind yourself of that. And when you talk about giving yourselves a fresh start, be specific about what that means for you and for your family. Is it new friends? Is it a new perspective on the world? Is it just a chance to shake things up? Is that something you can achieve in your town now or is that really only something you can get by moving? I'm not presupposing the answer, just asking the question.

[00:56:15] And on a more practical level, I know one of your fears is that you might uproot your family for something that's not going to be that much more enriching and fulfilling. My recommendation there is, spend some time in the city that you're excited about, at least a couple weeks, ideally a month or more, if you can swing it, maybe over summer break. Work remotely if that's an option. Try to micro-dose living there for more than a few days and just see if the reality lives up to the fantasy. Go to restaurants together, chat up strangers in the supermarket, go to a fitness class, take the kids to the community pool, do a couple of road trips in the area, you know, just really see what this town is like, what it's all about. You're not going to know everything from that trip. But you will have a lot more data about whether this place is as enriching and fulfilling as you think.

[00:57:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's fantastic advice. That is absolutely the research they should be doing. But look, at a certain point, if this move is really calling to you, like you sit with this for six more months, a year, and it's like there's something telling you that you guys would have a really special life there, this might be a really fun adventure to explore. At the end of the day, there's always a leap of faith involved in big decisions like this. The whole "wherever you go, there you are" thing, I know it sounds like kind of a bummer, but I actually think it's great news, because it reduces a lot of the risk of a move like this, in my view. Because yes, you guys could move to this new city, you'll still be sitting at the same dinner table. You'll still be treating one another the same way. You'll still be chasing a lot of the same goals and dealing with the same problems and, yes, probably a few new ones as well because that's life. But so it's like, does the actual city you live in matter quite as much as you think? In a certain way, not really. It's very important, but it's not everything. And I actually find that kind of reassuring.

[00:57:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and worst-case scenario, you move back, it's not the end of the world, so keep asking yourself these great questions, keep talking about this with your husband, maybe try to think of your life a little bit more as an adventure and less like something you need to get right. Your reasons sound pretty darn good to me. No situation is perfect. If you can remember that as you make these decisions, I think they're going to feel a lot less daunting and start to become a lot more fun, and good luck.

[00:58:25] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Dr. Robert Waldinger on happiness and Captain Max Hardberger on ship repossession and crazy associated stories, and our Skeptical Sunday on psychics and tarot cards if you haven't heard those yet.

[00:58:41] The best things that have happened in my life and business have always come through my network and the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And we see a happiness dividend from people who take this course. It's science, folks. So science it up over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. It just takes a few minutes a day. A lot of people doing this, including the guests you hear on the show, subscribing, contributing again, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:59:06] And if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our relaunched newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser, the bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you delivered to your inbox once a week. Great feedback from y'all on this. Really popular, really good open rates. And we're always evolving this with your help, frankly. So you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news.

[00:59:27] Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. AI chatbot can help with any code or anything we've ever done on the show, including questions and answers from Feedback Friday. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:59:50] The show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:00:21] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show about the evolved strategies of human mating.

[01:00:28] Dr. James Cantor: So I'm an evolutionary psychologist and I'm very well known in my scientific communities. I talk to people about mating all the time. And I learned something practically every day from people. So our predictions of what is going to make us happy are known to be off base. Sometimes people pay a lot of attention to the mate attraction process and not enough attention to the mate retention process. Men and women have overlapping mating psychologies, but in some domains, dramatically different mating psychologies. It's become fashionable to try to argue that men and women are really identical in their mating psychologies and their sexual psychologies, but they're not. I think that's, it's one of these kind of ideologically driven agendas and we know scientifically that the areas in which they differ.

[01:01:18] You know, I think one of the myths is that somehow we're supposed to meet the one and only when we're at a very young age and live perfectly happily ever after for the next 50 years with no bumps in the road. And I think that's just naive. There's a new body of research that talks about the dark triad and the dark triad is also more likely to cheat. Dark triad is high narcissism, high Machiavellianism, and high psychopathy. People who are both men and women who are high on these dimensions are much more likely to cheat. You want to avoid those in a long-term mate, for sure. Avoid emotional instability and avoid narcissism in potential mates.

[01:02:01] Jordan Harbinger: To learn more about what people want in a mate, successful tactics of mate attraction and more with Dr. James Cantor, check out episode 815 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:02:12] This episode is sponsored in part by Nobody Should Believe Me podcast. If you're like me, you're fascinated by stories that dive deep into the human psyche and you'll want to check out the Nobody Should Believe Me podcast, this groundbreaking investigative true crime podcast brought to you by my friend Andrea Dunlop. It unravels this mysterious world of Munchausen by proxy, which, in case you've never heard of it, It's basically when somebody, often a caregiver, makes another person appear sick or hurt on purpose to get attention or sympathy. We did a whole episode about it here on the show. It's a raw, gripping exploration through the eyes of those who've lived it. Not just tales, but real insights from the world's top experts in this very sort of random and terrifying niche. It's consistently dominating the Apple true crime charts, peaking as high as number eight. Pretty damn good for true crime, I'll tell you. Both seasons one and two are out, ready for you to go on a true crime binge. Check out Nobody Should Believe Me wherever you listen to podcasts.