883: Annie Ikpa | The Campaign to End Child Sacrifice

883: Annie Ikpa | The Campaign to End Child Sacrifice

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Airbnb for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe you've stayed at an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Yeah, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. Find out how much your place is worth at airbnb.com/host.

[00:00:18] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:21] Annie Ikpa: You're finding that witch doctors are capitalizing off people's vulnerability and promising them the world on a stick if you were to sacrifice your own child.

[00:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional former jihadi, drug trafficker, astronaut, or music mogul.

[00:01:01] And if you are new to the show, or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of top episodes on persuasion, negotiation, psychology, disinformation, cyber warfare, crime, cults, and more, just to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

[00:01:21] Today on the show, Annie Ikpa is an activist based in the UK who helped pass a law banning child sacrifice in Uganda. I know, there was apparently no law against child sacrifice before. Believe it or not, this was somehow hard to prosecute and actually a big problem and hard to address over there. Her story and those of the children we discuss in this episode are harrowing and somewhat graphic, so maybe no kids in the car for this one. She's a real hero, and I know you'll dig this conversation with her just as I did.

[00:01:48] Here we go with Annie Ikpa.

[00:01:53] First of all, child sacrifice sounds like something that is made up by crazy conspiracy theorists to deflect from real problems. Have you heard that before? Like, if you told me there's child sacrifice and you said it's happening in a cult in the United States, I'd be like, "Eh, you're probably just reading too much fake news—"

[00:02:13] Annie Ikpa: Hmm.

[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: But this is totally real.

[00:02:15] Annie Ikpa: This is totally real. And unfortunately, I've kind of known about not child sacrifice, but I'm sort of well-versed in witchcraft and the occult. My dad is Nigerian, and there's certainly a lot of that that happens there. So I have grown up hearing these sorts of things. But yeah, child sacrifice was certainly a new one for me and I can understand why people might think this isn't real. This can't be happening.

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: Or like it happened twice and now it's like, "Oh my god," and it was just some mentally ill person doing it. And it's like, you know? Because you hear that with serial killers, like there's a satanic cult and it's like, no, there's just a crazy person in one town and one area doing really crazy stuff for sure. It's a serial killer. But it's not like an internet-based cult that's coming to a town near you, like media would have a lot of us believe. But this is rural Uganda where this was happening, where this maybe is happening?

[00:03:08] Annie Ikpa: Nope, not necessarily.

[00:03:10] Jordan Harbinger: Oh really?

[00:03:10] Annie Ikpa: It's certainly happening in Kampala, the city's capital too.

[00:03:15] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:03:15] Annie Ikpa: Unfortunately, the deeds are very often carried out in villages and rural districts.

[00:03:21] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:21] Annie Ikpa: But unfortunately, it's countrywide.

[00:03:23] Jordan Harbinger: How did you even find out this was happening? It seems like something that even if the locals all know about it, they're not like, "We need to publicize this more." It seems like even local people would be like, "Oh, maybe we don't, maybe we don't talk about this."

[00:03:35] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's completely taboo. I found out about this practice when I went over to Uganda to volunteer at a babies' home. I just thought, you know, they could use my services. And I was looking for a bit of a break myself. And I was working within this babies' home where they rescue abandoned babies and find Ugandan families to adopt them.

[00:03:55] Jordan Harbinger: So there's an orphanage, I think we call that in the United States. Is that the same thing?

[00:03:59] Annie Ikpa: Kind of, but they did shy away from that because there's also a lot of—

[00:04:04] Jordan Harbinger: Really?

[00:04:04] Annie Ikpa: —unpleasant things that go on in orphanages in Uganda, and they wanted to disassociate themselves with some of those practices.

[00:04:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

[00:04:10] Annie Ikpa: Selling children to those in the West.

[00:04:13] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.

[00:04:15] Annie Ikpa: We tried to, yeah, I try not to use the word orphanage. I think they're comfortable with babies' home.

[00:04:20] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:04:20] Annie Ikpa: And so I was working there making films. And actually, within the sort of babies' home, there were lots of children from all ages who had been left or abandoned by their parents for various reasons. And one of those children had been rescued just before she was due to be sacrificed. And so she was found by a security guard who brought her to this babies' home and that's where they were looking after her.

[00:04:47] Jordan Harbinger: Where do you even begin to unpack something like this? Because I would imagine you probably have the same reaction that I'm having right now where somebody says, "Oh, she's here because the security guard rescued her before she was being sacrificed." And you're like, I must have misheard what you said, or this is a mistranslation or what do you talk like? What do you mean he found her about to be sacrificed? It just sounds so—

[00:05:08] Annie Ikpa: Bonkers.

[00:05:09] Jordan Harbinger: Bonkers, yes. Perfect word for it. Yeah. What on earth. I mean, obviously, you started to clarify the story of, of what happened almost immediately. Yeah.

[00:05:17] Annie Ikpa: I mean, yeah, immediately. So I had heard about this child before I'd actually started working there. It was on my very first day actually in Uganda. And one of the media volunteers was telling me about some of the children that I was going to be meeting. And she told me about her. And I had to find her straight away. I felt this kind of closeness to her without knowing anything about her, and certainly an interest to find out more, because personally, I was horrified that this was happening, and I had never heard of it happening.

[00:05:47] So yeah, so as soon as I started working there, I asked after this girl, and yeah, she was really not in a very good way. You could tell that something awful had happened to her. She was haunted, and we eventually developed a really strong bond through the work that I was doing, but just also because she was incredible and her sense of strength was just palpable. And I just wanted to be around her all the time. I was actually obsessed, not quite healthily obsessed, I was obsessed. I fell in love with her immediately.

[00:06:16] Jordan Harbinger: That's super cute.

[00:06:16] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:06:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, she needed somebody like you in her life as I would imagine at that time, just because to talk about losing faith in humanity, somebody was going to sacrifice you, in a horrible way.

[00:06:26] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, and I think, look, that the babies' home are and were amazing. I think there were lots of children there, though, that it's impossible to have sort of one-on-one them, to have one-on-one care, although they did do an amazing, amazing job. But yeah, I think we were lucky to find each other, really, this girl and I.

[00:06:44] Jordan Harbinger: What was going on where she was, I mean, we've heard of people sacrificing goats or something, but not people. It's really something straight out of a horror movie. So this is a witchcraft practice? Is that, is it ancient? Or is it kind of like, do people just make this stuff up? Or does it come from generations ago? Is this something that's been longstanding, I guess, happening there? I don't know.

[00:07:05] Annie Ikpa: Exactly that. I think witchcraft is very much sort of embedded in, within the fabrics of African tradition. It has been going on a very, very, very long time, but I don't want to give credence to it whatsoever. Certainly recently, you're finding that witch doctors are capitalizing off people's vulnerability, really, and promising them the world, on a stick, if you were to sacrifice your own child. And that, I believe, is probably what happened to the little girl at the babies' home. There was a widespread, widespread, sort of, hunt, nationwide, countrywide, for anybody who knew anything about her to please come forward. This is a child that we have in our babies' home. We're looking for her parents. And nobody came forward. And I began to wonder whether or not it was because her parents were complicit, which happens a lot.

[00:07:54] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense because if there's a countrywide search for your kid and you are also desperately searching for your kid because they're missing, it doesn't take that long, theoretically, to find because someone's going to tell you if you don't see the poster or see it on TV or whatever yourself.

[00:08:09] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:08:09] Jordan Harbinger: So if you are complicit. And there's a nationwide search for your kids and everyone's saying, "Hey, we haven't seen your daughter for a long time. Isn't this yours?" And you're just like, "Oh my god, they know."

[00:08:18] Annie Ikpa: Mmm.

[00:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: And you're laying low. That's the only scenario I can imagine, which you don't find your child.

[00:08:22] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, exactly. Someone would know her, whether or not she may well have been an orphan when that happened, but she was being cared for by someone. In fact, she was, she turned up actually really well cared for. She looked like she came from a really good family, which is confusing in itself.

[00:08:36] Jordan Harbinger: That is confusing.

[00:08:37] Annie Ikpa: It is a mystery. I actually tried to investigate what happened. And her police files had been lost.

[00:08:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's not suspicious at all.

[00:08:44] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:45] Jordan Harbinger: What a coincidence that a nationwide manhunt goes down. So this is a very important case. And then those files go missing and there's no copies anywhere.

[00:08:53] Annie Ikpa: Mmm.

[00:08:54] Jordan Harbinger: If this was a 30 year old case, okay, files go missing, I suppose, even in the best of times. Nationwide, high profile case, no police files.

[00:09:04] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, suspicious as hell.

[00:09:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, suspicious as hell.

[00:09:05] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:09:06] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. You mentioned she was probably from a good family or that she looked like she was from a good family. That is confusing because when I think desperate enough to sell your child for sacrifice, first of all, I can't relate. At any level, I just can't relate. I mean, I'd sooner be eating out of a rubbish bin than sacrifice my child for anything like this, or for any reason, really. So if she looks like she came from a good family, I'm speculating here, but it almost sounds like the family decides not to sell her for money, but for the purposes of the witchcraft itself, right? They believe she's going to serve some, maybe give them luck or something, or am I connecting dots that aren't there?

[00:09:43] Annie Ikpa: You're right to be confused. It's unfortunately not unusual. So what makes tackling this issue so difficult is that you have people from both ends of the spectrum sacrificing children. You've got those who are really, really poor, who have been sort of told by a witch doctor that, "Look, if you give me one of your children, then the other others can eat."

[00:10:03] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:03] Annie Ikpa: "Yeah, the others will be okay. And you'll be fine for life." And then you've got those on the other end of the spectrum who are really high powered positions, sacrificing to sustain their wealth.

[00:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:10:16] Annie Ikpa: It makes it really, really difficult from my point of view and everybody who is involved in trying to put, bring this practice to an end to curb it. Because there's no one-size-fits-all approach. Sure, we can go to the grassroots and try and sort of sensitize these communities that look, this is wrong, but it would take an entirely different approach to try and sensitize those at the other end of the spectrum who are committing this. So unfortunately, yeah, you're sort of your wealth and standard of living is no indication of whether or not you would end up sacrificing the child or being involved in that business at all.

[00:10:50] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. So it's not something where you can say what we need is poverty alleviation at the bottom level because that's what's causing this. It's well, yeah, that and you have psychopath crazies at the top or just believers in this religion that can't be convinced otherwise. So you don't have, yeah, like you said, there's not just a solution where you just make it so people can get clean water and suddenly they stop doing this.

[00:11:14] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, it's impossible. Well, it's not impossible because I will continue fighting this until I see a significant dent in the practice, but it's very, very hard.

[00:11:23] Jordan Harbinger: I can imagine. And do people believe this because it's ancient? I know I kind of asked that question before, but is this something that's been in the culture the whole time? At the same rate? Because it looks like we're seeing an upswing in it for some reason lately. Or are we just finding out about it now more?

[00:11:39] Annie Ikpa: That's a really good question. I think I've been making a lot of noise about this—

[00:11:42] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:42] Annie Ikpa: —as much as I possibly can. So I think that people's eyes are a bit more open to it. Unfortunately, it has been going on pretty consistently. There are certain times where more children are sacrificed than other times in the year. General elections are very, very, very common. It's very common to find that children have been gone missing or have been found without their body parts. There's lots of construction going on in Uganda at the moment. And it is believed that when you place a child on a construction site before it's finished, the site would be blessed. And interestingly, that is where the little girl from the babies' home was found. So when there's a real kind of push for development. Unfortunately, that goes hand in hand with children going missing and children being found without organs.

[00:12:26] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds so awful. Obviously, I mean, there's a million reasons why it's awful, but it doesn't sound quick. It's not efficient. I mean, I don't know if there's obviously no good way to do something like this. It's horrific, but it seems like it's slow and drawn out and full of suffering even more so than just the death itself.

[00:12:43] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, it is. And this isn't pleasant. This is an awful thing to talk about.

[00:12:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] Annie Ikpa: They use chloroform to obtain the child. There is no grace in the way that they kill them. They're held down by the one or two people and they take what they want while the child is still alive.

[00:13:01] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.

[00:13:02] Annie Ikpa: It's just appalling. I mean, obviously, I can't relate to this at all, right, but come on.

[00:13:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:13:07] Annie Ikpa: It's just like, I'm not sure why they would want to see this child struggle up until their last breath. It's just awful. And I've heard firsthand accounts of this happening. You know, it's bad enough as it is.

[00:13:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:18] Annie Ikpa: So yeah, for me, I think that's probably one of the worst parts of this.

[00:13:22] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So let's say I believe in a religion really strongly and they say you have to sacrifice a goat. Okay. I can sort of see how people get into a belief system where they do something like that. It's a little bit like, oh god, I really don't like when we have to kill the goat. I don't like it. Somebody else does it, they're used to it, right? It's kind of like hunting in the United States, and probably in the UK, people get used to skinning the animal, it's a little bit gross the first time you do it, but if you've been doing it since you were a kid, it's a thing.

[00:13:50] Annie Ikpa: Have you done this before, may I ask?

[00:13:52] Jordan Harbinger: Have I done it before?

[00:13:53] Annie Ikpa: Have you ever done—? Yeah.

[00:13:54] Jordan Harbinger: Like, not—

[00:13:55] Annie Ikpa: Animals?

[00:13:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you mean animals, okay, let's clarify.

[00:13:59] Annie Ikpa: Jesus.

[00:14:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I had to take the skin off. I think I've done it to a duck and it's gross, you know, you're removing stuff. But you get used to it.

[00:14:08] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:14:08] Jordan Harbinger: And you sort of desensitize yourself to it and it's not alive, right? You're not doing it while it's alive and you rationalize all these different ways now. I didn't enjoy that. I don't do it anymore. I did it once when my friend's uncle went hunting and said, "You guys got to toughen up and learn to clean these." And I'm like, okay, I obviously remember it really well.

[00:14:26] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: But people hunt, they get used to it. If you're doing this to your own species and it's a child and they're screaming and talking to you and you know who they are because you kidnap them, like you have to be a sociopath, psychopath. You have to be or you would be so wrecked from doing something like this that you would never be able to live with yourself. You know, you would just never sleep again.

[00:14:47] Annie Ikpa: Mmm.

[00:14:48] Jordan Harbinger: But people do this on a regular basis. I'm so confused.

[00:14:51] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:14:51] Jordan Harbinger: Who's doing this?

[00:14:52] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, they do. And I think at the end of the day, obviously, neither of us can relate to this.

[00:14:57] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:14:57] Annie Ikpa: But there is money. This is a big business. There is money at the end of this. So every single person who is associated with this practice from abducting the child to killing and mixing with medicinal with the herbs and what have you. It's paid—

[00:15:12] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:12] Annie Ikpa: And not necessarily a lot to you or I, but it's paid a lot for them. And this is why it's so difficult to unpack, because when I first started this I was just like, "You, animals."

[00:15:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:24] Annie Ikpa: "How on earth can you do this?" And I'm obviously, I still have that notion now, but I do understand that some of these people are more desperate than you and I can ever, ever contemplate.

[00:15:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:34] Annie Ikpa: And so they feel that this is the only way that they can emerge from that. So I've become less judgmental as I've gone along, as difficult as that to believe.

[00:15:44] Jordan Harbinger: Right. No, it's not difficult to believe that you've become less judgmental. It makes sense because you've investigated this and part of investigating this would be to understand why and how anybody could ever do this. I mean, originally, when I started researching this, I was like, oh, they are just taking these kids that are homeless or something, but they're doing it to their own children.

[00:16:03] Annie Ikpa: Right.

[00:16:03] Jordan Harbinger: Or they're abducting a kid from their neighborhood. I mean, it's just so horrible. I mean, when you're reading these reports that I think you co-authored, it's like you just have to pause, take a breath, go for a walk around the block, come back, finish. It's horrible.

[00:16:18] Annie Ikpa: It's harrowing.

[00:16:18] Jordan Harbinger: And these are not photos I'm looking at. This is just like an account of something in that report that you'd sent me and some of these articles, and it's still just horrendous.

[00:16:27] Annie Ikpa: I have to clarify that the reason people are given obviously the option to sacrifice homeless children, but they're often encouraged to sacrifice their own because the blood is more potent and the charm is more likely to work because it's a bigger sacrifice. It's the ultimate sacrifice.

[00:16:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Oh, man. Oh my gosh.

[00:16:51] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Annie Ikpa. We'll be right back.

[00:16:55] This episode is sponsored in part by Cometeer. Okay, Cometeer, it's impressive. I was doubtful about this at first because it's coffee in these little cups. I mean, we've seen this before, but now Jen and I, we can't get enough. Cometeer is super fresh, flash frozen coffee with incredible flavor that's ready in mere seconds. Even though I own, I won't even tell you how much this espresso machine costs because it's freaking embarrassing. Mastering the art of making the perfect cup is no simple task, it's kind of a pain in the butt. Getting the grind size right, the temperature, the tamping, all the extraction time and all that stuff is just, let's just say I'm not a natural. Add that to the regular maintenance like descaling and our top notch beans can yield a brew that tastes like an ashtray. So, Cometeer has been exceptional. It's just coffee with confidence, I suppose. They come in frozen aluminum capsules that you obviously recycle. We keep them defrosted in the fridge. Pour it into a mug, add milk, add ice. I throw them into my protein shake. You can add hot water, however you like it, and it's ready to drink, literally takes seconds. I love this stuff. It tastes way better than coffee I make. I'm kind of annoyed that I bought a coffee machine and now I just want this stuff. So, don't settle for the burnt and the bland.

[00:17:58] Jen Harbinger: Join the future of coffee with Cometeer, and get a curated starter pack of their most popular roasts. Go to cometeer.com/jordan to get a free 8-pack and a travel mug when you sign up. That's a free 8-pack of coffee and a travel mug when you sign up at C-O-M-E-T-E-E-R.com/jordan.

[00:18:16] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Shopify. What platform do millions of people trust to sell their products all around the world? It's responsible for nearly half a trillion dollars in global sales, and if you're a listener of the show, you should know the answer. It's Shopify. Shopify is the power engine behind colossal brands like Allbirds, Rothy's, Brooklyn, and chances are if you're shopping online, Shopify is at the heart of it. From humble beginnings in your garage to standing on the brink of an IPO, Shopify is your one-stop eCommerce powerhouse to launch, run, and soar your business to new heights. Beyond just a virtual storefront, Shopify lets you handle inventory, ensure secure transactions, integrate shipping seamlessly, and nurture customer relationships without missing a beat. Worried about tech complexities? Fear not, with Shopify's user-friendly interface, launching your online empire becomes child's play. Go global effortlessly with multi-language and currency options, amplify your presence with robust marketing tools, and rest easy knowing 24/7 support has your back.

[00:19:09] Jen Harbinger: Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at shopify.com/jordan in all lowercase. Go to shopify.com/jordan to take your business to the next level today, shopify.com/jordan.

[00:19:22] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks from the show, it is because of my network, and I know networking sounds gross. A lot of you are like, "I don't need this. I just talk to people." That's fine, but there is a happiness dividend from reconnecting with people, and the systems that I teach are the way to do it. It's not cringey. It's not awkward, just practical stuff that's going to make you a better connector, better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer. Yes, even if you're retired. Yes, even if your job doesn't require it. It's just a few minutes a day. It's a great habit that I think a lot of top performers have, and many of the guests on the show already subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find this course at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:19:59] Now, back to Annie Ikpa.

[00:20:03] So are these witch doctors, are they above board? Is it like you do certain things above board? Obviously, killing children is not above board and you've since fought to pass a law that makes sure that it's codified. We'll get to that in a minute but is it like you can go there and they'll bless your new car with some holy water type thing and it's like oh that's the local and then there's like the underground stuff for trusted people or is the whole industry underground? Does that question make sense?

[00:20:28] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, yeah it does. I think there are three kind of layers here. And unfortunately, they all have three different roles within this realm, and they all seem to kind of get blurred.

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:37] Annie Ikpa: So you've got traditional healers, who, my grandfather was one, they are sort of modern sort of medicine men, really, go to them with an ailment, and they'll mix legitimate herbs together and hope to cure you. And then you have, you've got your witch doctors.

[00:20:53] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:54] Annie Ikpa: And within that sort of umbrella, there are sort of those who will encourage you to go to them with your sort of everyday issues, like, "My husband is cheating on me. I want to get a promotion at work." And they will give you some herbs to take back to your home and all will be well. And then also under the witch doctor umbrella, you've got those who say, "Look, if you've got this problem and this problem come to me and I will solve your issue, but you have to be involved with sacrificing the child and be prepared to do that." And I'm sure there are many, many others within those. And I'm sure there's a bit of crossover too. But those are the three sort of types of forces that you've got at work here. But I think traditional healers get a really, a really rough time because they're often associated with witch doctors and the practice of witchcraft. And that's very, very often not the case.

[00:21:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It would be like if you went to your acupuncturist and she's like, "Hey, don't get us confused with the people that stab other people to death. These are just little needles."

[00:21:49] Annie Ikpa: These are just tiny needles. Well, exactly. Yeah. That's a very good comparison.

[00:21:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, feel free to use it if it's useful, I guess. I don't know, it seems it's very odd. My intention is not to make people laugh during this episode, but it's so horrible that I almost have to keep some of this lighter because it's just shocking. And how common, how prevalent is this? Do we have an estimate of how many kids we think maybe have been victims of this in the last 15 years or so?

[00:22:15] Annie Ikpa: It's very, very difficult. Very, very difficult because so many of these crimes do go unreported. But Humane Africa conducted a research project, and over a four-month period, they recorded one sacrifice every single week—

[00:22:31] Jordan Harbinger: What?

[00:22:32] Annie Ikpa: —in each of the 12 districts that they were working in.

[00:22:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.

[00:22:35] Annie Ikpa: So that gives you an idea of just how prevalent this is. Certainly, it was at that time.

[00:22:40] Jordan Harbinger: That's way more than I thought, you know, I was kind of hoping for a couple per year or something.

[00:22:46] Annie Ikpa: We don't hope for any. We don't hope for any, right?

[00:22:48] Jordan Harbinger: Well, of course.

[00:22:48] Annie Ikpa: But knowing that this is a—

[00:22:50] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for making me sound even worse than I did by, on my own.

[00:22:54] Annie Ikpa: But no, I think, it's just really difficult, but I think knowing that it doesn't take much asking around, particularly when I was investigating this right at the beginning. I just scratched the surface and I met so many people who had either had their child sacrificed or knew somebody who did. So that gave me an idea straight away that this is happening quite a lot. Enough to want to do something, obviously, about it.

[00:23:17] Jordan Harbinger: This is the naive question that I have to ask because somebody's thinking it. What about the police? Come on. Don't they call the cops and say, "There's a witch doctor killing kids in my village or neighborhood"? Maybe this shouldn't be happening.

[00:23:28] Annie Ikpa: You've got good cops and you've got bad cops, right?

[00:23:30] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:31] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:23:31] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Yeah.

[00:23:32] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:23:32] Jordan Harbinger: So just levels of corruption don't allow for the prosecution of this kind of thing in many instances?

[00:23:39] Annie Ikpa: I think a lot, a lot breaks down during the investigation stage. Reports go missing, crimes and people aren't adequately interviewed, or they're paid off, or there are many, many things that can complicate and ultimately fail an investigation. I mean, I know that we obviously we passed this law, but a lot of the work and the majority of the work needs to happen before it even gets to the courts. Because there is so much wrong with the system as it stands, in my opinion. You know, I've worked with some incredible people in government and the police and—

[00:24:11] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Annie Ikpa: —you know, it's a few bad apples.

[00:24:13] Jordan Harbinger: So I did read some of your reporting and I, in my research, I came across some really horrible stories. There was a kid who saw, and this is paraphrased, but two naked men running around and they just sort of spotted him and ran after him with a machete. They gave him brain damage and I can't believe I have to read this and say this, they castrated this poor kid and he was awake and he remembers the whole thing. It's really one of the most evil things I've ever heard and there's no other way to put it. What's even more shocking is they caught the guys but they released them without charge. And some of that is what, corruption, and what's the rest? We just don't have a law that says you can't do this.

[00:24:51] Annie Ikpa: Most of that is right. He didn't see anybody naked running around. He was abducted by one of his neighbors.

[00:24:59] Jordan Harbinger: I see.

[00:24:59] Annie Ikpa: And everything else that you just said follows. Yeah, he was caught. He was stabbed in the neck with a machete. They drained his blood and castrated him. Because he was a child, his eyewitness account was not enough to secure a conviction.

[00:25:12] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:25:12] Annie Ikpa: And he then lived within the same village as this man who had attacked him. Obviously, he survived. He lived in the same village as this man, and he sees him most days. And there was absolutely nothing that he could do or his family could do to put him away. And so he had to live with that, that trauma, the memory. He had reconstructive surgery in Australia, a charity very kindly funded that.

[00:25:36] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:37] Annie Ikpa: But what I will say is that since the law has passed, we have put that man away.

[00:25:41] Jordan Harbinger: Thank goodness.

[00:25:42] Annie Ikpa: And he is now in prison.

[00:25:44] Jordan Harbinger: Finally, some good news. That must have felt really good because that guy, again, it's one of the most evil things I can think of. We have conspiracy theories here in the United States where people are like, the Democrats have a secret child sacrifice ring in the basement of a pizza parlor or whatever.

[00:25:57] Annie Ikpa: Mmm.

[00:25:58] Jordan Harbinger: But this is like the real version of that.

[00:26:00] Annie Ikpa: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:01] Jordan Harbinger: And it's really, really, really awful that they're getting away with it. It's really, really bad. It must feel good to put somebody like that away because I can't help but think that that was not his first attempt at a child sacrifice, it's just the one where he got caught.

[00:26:14] Annie Ikpa: No, exactly. And in fact, since Allan, he's actually, he's given quite a few interviews and he's sort of online for people to see and read his story. The man who attacked him actually did go on to sacrifice other children. And because Allan's story got quite a lot of traction, the BBC went over and filmed their own documentary and secretly filmed this man posing as businessman wanting to obtain a child. And this man very openly and brazenly said, "Whatever you want, this is how we do it, and the like." So, yes, he absolutely had continued to do that once he'd attacked Allan and didn't feel in any way threatened by the legal system.

[00:26:56] Jordan Harbinger: It's so horrific and it really puts your work into stark relief trying to get a law passed that criminalizes this, chasing these people down, essentially. There's hidden camera footage of this witch doctor explaining, "Oh yeah, we befriend a child," which is just, it adds grossness on top of grossness, "We befriend a child, we kidnap them, we murder them." It's just, I'm never going to forget that. And I can imagine people, imagine having a child and there's somebody in your community doing this and you're just, what, crossing the street when you see them coming? I mean, that's all you can do is avoid them and tell your kids to run if they see that guy?

[00:27:29] Annie Ikpa: It's so screwed up. It's awful. And I interviewed the parents as well, actually, as part of my work. And they were just, they just felt so let down, "Here is the evidence of what this man has done. And my son is telling you that this is the one who did it, but there just wasn't enough to secure a conviction." And they had to live with that, with absolutely no faith. His parents really felt as though the legal system had failed them, and I agree with them.

[00:27:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:27:54] Annie Ikpa: I absolutely agree with him, and that is absolutely, their story is one of those that really spurred me on to find the right people to work with to make sure that this bill was passed. And I'm so glad it was.

[00:28:06] Jordan Harbinger: I hate to harp on the horrific details, but I think it makes sense because people are wondering, you know, wait, they're burying a kid at a construction site. What's going on here? So they're taking parts of these kids and they're mixing them into traditional medicine. So that most popular, I guess, would be the head, tongue, heart, and unfortunately, the genitals, which is, well, I guess they're all equally terrible. I don't know why that seems worse somehow, but it's all while the child is alive for whatever reason. And the girl who was born for sacrifice was one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life, and I'm serious about this, is a girl who was essentially raised so that they could harvest parts of her? Is that accurate?

[00:28:43] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, that's right. So she was kept in a shrine for the first eight years of her life before she was obviously rescued, and she was gradually sacrificed. So the witch doctor would remove, parts of her gums, her teeth, her fingernails, not taking much, at any one time because obviously, she was meant to stay alive, right? They gradually sacrificed her to the point that by the time, I had met her, she was in a wheelchair. She couldn't speak, she couldn't hear anything, and they had all but destroyed her. And there was absolutely no legislation on this. The only way that anybody was to be put away was if you were to prove that they had murdered somebody. And it was so difficult to prove that with existing legislation. But we've put in this provision that allows those who do exactly what that man did to her to be put away. She is in a best place now, obviously. But that was something that I had never come across. I always thought, actually, that sacrificing children always ended up and resulted in death. And that is absolutely not the case. Yeah, it was awful. It was absolutely horrible to meet her. She had been essentially used all her life.

[00:29:57] Jordan Harbinger: I keep coming back to this. I know I sound like a broken record, but I just can't imagine any belief system strong enough to make this okay, especially while you're doing it. I just can't get, I just can't get there. I remember learning about things like the holocaust, and the things that happened to extended family of mine during World War II. And with extreme belief comes all this crazy stuff, but this is like the one place I just can't get there. No matter how much I think about it, I can't imagine the path that gets you there.

[00:30:28] Annie Ikpa: No, you know, we've not grown up in that world, Jordan, you know? And again, I'm not making excuses for these people because at the end of the day, they are greedy. At the heart of this are the witch doctors who are the ones encouraging this to happen. If not for them, and it's not for this ridiculous idea that, "If you sacrifice a child, you'll become rich and prosperous," then people wouldn't be doing it. Well, certainly they wouldn't be doing it at the same level that they are. You know, creating an environment where people feel like this is okay. You know, they're being actively encouraged to do this. I know it's really difficult to try and understand who would do something like this, and I feel like at the very heart, these are witchdoctors who believe and understand that this is a business, and a very profitable one.

[00:31:14] Jordan Harbinger: How do you get a law passed in Uganda? You live not in Uganda, right, currently?

[00:31:20] Right. I'm in London.

[00:31:21] It's hard enough to get a law passed when you're in the government of the country where you're trying to get that law passed.

[00:31:26] Annie Ikpa: Right.

[00:31:26] Jordan Harbinger: Let alone you're a regular citizen living overseas. I don't want to put words in your mouth or something like that, but I know that like friends of mine who are from Africa, they go back there and they're like, "They consider me white when I'm there." And I'm like, "You're definitely not a white guy."

[00:31:40] Annie Ikpa: Me too.

[00:31:41] Jordan Harbinger: What are you talking about? But I would imagine like you actually have light skin. So I would imagine they're almost like, "What the heck is going on here? You're not African."

[00:31:48] Annie Ikpa: Mmm.

[00:31:48] Jordan Harbinger: Or does that happen to you when you go, when you—?

[00:31:50] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:31:52] Annie Ikpa: It used to really piss me off.

[00:31:53] Jordan Harbinger: Rightfully so.

[00:31:54] Annie Ikpa: Yeah. So denying my heritage, my Nigerian heritage, and it made it really difficult to get stuff done. At the same time, it sort of, I don't know, made it all that bit sweeter when I did finally crack that wall and was able to develop really strong and lifelong relationships with people. You know, I wasn't a threat. And I think that that's very often how they feel about people from the West coming over—

[00:32:20] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:21] Annie Ikpa: —and trying to tell them how to run their country, run their lives. I mean, who the hell am I? Literally, I'm an editor. I had no legal or legislative experience whatsoever. So I was absolutely winging it. And they can obviously probably tell. I think it must have been really difficult for them to accept me into the fold.

[00:32:39] Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine also that there's people who are like, "Oh, she must be from a big NGO. They probably have deep pockets."

[00:32:45] Annie Ikpa: Right.

[00:32:45] Jordan Harbinger: And it's like, "So who sent you here?" And you're like, "No, I just heard about this horrible thing and I kind of want to eradicate it." And they're like, "Wait a minute. You're doing this because you actually care and you have no money. Don't bother me with this."

[00:32:55] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, well, money was a big thing. I realized like three or four years in, holy sh*t, I actually, I actually need some funding to progress this, right? And that's where Children on the Edge came in. They funded me, they funded the rest of the project, and without them it would have been absolutely impossible. They opened up, that opened up so many doors — their emotional support, their financial support, and just their doggedness to see this through. When I finally got funding, that's when things started moving. Thanks God.

[00:33:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:33:23] Annie Ikpa: Because I was losing my mind a little bit. I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:33:28] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, you're trying to figure this out. You're winging it in a Western country politically has got to be tricky. Winging it in a country where, eh, the rule of law, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, relationships are everything. And you're like, "Yeah, I'll fly over there and try and get something done." I mean, it almost like—

[00:33:43] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:33:43] Jordan Harbinger: It almost sounds like a joke that you would get something done.

[00:33:45] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, it was so funny. It was a joke. I didn't really have a plan.

[00:33:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:50] Annie Ikpa: It was just so sort of, u flying by the seat of my own pants a bit. Because I decided that this is something that I want to pursue, had obviously no means to do it. So I would work in London, save up enough money to fly over there. And to hold a meeting with MPs and just basically run around Kampala trying to drum up the support, you know, get this sort of sense of momentum and then have to come home and work.

[00:34:13] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:14] Annie Ikpa: And so this cycle just kept going for like three or four years before—

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.

[00:34:18] Annie Ikpa: Finally, yeah, I got funding and was able to actually set something up properly, and official, and that's when things started really progressing.

[00:34:26] Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine this is something where once you found out about it, you just couldn't let it go. Because you can't give up on something like this, right? Even if it's hard, even if it's expensive, even if it's slow. I would be thinking, I'm going to be doing this for 30 years, but at least I have to do it. I can't go to bed at night being like, well, I tried and it was just too hard.

[00:34:44] Annie Ikpa: You're asking if I contemplated giving up?

[00:34:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I guess so, but also, I realize you probably did, but then couldn't. That's how I would feel.

[00:34:52] Annie Ikpa: Totally. I think about seven years in, I was like, this is a curse because I want to start a family.

[00:34:59] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:34:59] Annie Ikpa: I want to live my life a little bit and do some of the things that I've always wanted to do. And because I had made this sort of like promise to myself and promise to this little girl and to so many people along the way, I couldn't. And actually, if I had, it would have haunted me for the rest of my life.

[00:35:15] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:15] Annie Ikpa: So I felt like what kept me there was the passion and the drive and all of that. But also I was trapped because, you know, selfishly on the other side, I didn't really want to live with the guilt of not—

[00:35:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:35:26] Annie Ikpa: —following this through when I knew I could. And that sounds really arrogant, but I did. I knew in my heart that this bill would pass. I just needed to keep going with it. So I thought I was doing a real disservice by stopping. It would have been lazy.

[00:35:41] Jordan Harbinger: It would have been lazy, understandable, but also not really your style to just be like, well, I mean, I would imagine there were many nights where you just prayed somebody would come and take this off your hands, like, "We got it from here. We're a big NGO with a ton of resources and lobbyists. We'll take it from here." And you're like, "Thank God," but that didn't happen.

[00:35:58] Annie Ikpa: Well, no, actually it did.

[00:36:00] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:36:00] Annie Ikpa: And I didn't want to let it go.

[00:36:03] Jordan Harbinger: You're even tougher than I thought.

[00:36:04] Annie Ikpa: No, I didn't want to let it go because, and again, this sounds really arrogant. And I don't, I really don't mean it to be.

[00:36:11] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:11] Annie Ikpa: I cared more about that than anyone else in the country at the time. And I was the one who was going to make sure that no money got spent badly, that things were run transparently and honestly, and with the children at the heart of everything. I just didn't trust anyone else—

[00:36:27] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense.

[00:36:27] Annie Ikpa: —until the end. And then I found my core team. But yeah, no, I didn't. I didn't trust anyone.

[00:36:32] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, you probably had good reason for that, right? You probably already tried that, those routes.

[00:36:37] Annie Ikpa: Yes.

[00:36:37] Jordan Harbinger: And then it's like, "We paid for this. Where did that go?" "Ah, well, you know, got to feed the cats." Like, "What? What does that mean?"

[00:36:44] Annie Ikpa: Or buy some land. Yeah.

[00:36:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. "Well, yeah, have you seen my new villa? It's progressing. By the way, we need more money. And take a ride in my new car and we'll talk about it."

[00:36:53] Annie Ikpa: There you got it.

[00:36:57] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Annie Ikpa. We'll be right back.

[00:37:02] This episode is sponsored in part by Eight Sleep. Summer is peaking, nothing ruins a good night's sleep more than sweltering heat. Actually, I mean, I would say kids kicking you in the junk does, but for most of us, it's the heat. But thank the lord, we got the Pad Cover by Eight Sleep. It's been keeping us comfortably cool. The temp goes down to 55 degrees Fahrenheit, which is like 12 degrees for you Celsius, folks. We used to have a bed that traps heat, and felt like we were sleeping in a freaking crock pot all night, miserable. What's great is that Eight Sleep's Pod Cover effortlessly fits on any bed, just like a fitted sheet, so it'll transform your hot griddle of a mattress into a state of the art temperature regulated sleep haven. The best feature is that each side can be tailored to your individual preference, obviously for couples we need that, men are from Mars, et cetera. Another thing I dig is you can schedule it to pre-heat or pre-cool the bed so it's ready for bedtime. Eight Sleep's Pod Cover also has an autopilot feature so it heats or cools based on your sleep cycle and the surrounding environment. So if it's hot in your room, it can cool it down, yeah, I mean, you get it. For something that we use every single night, it's definitely one of the most worthy investments that we have made in our home. Go to eightsleep.com/jordan and save $150 on the Pod Cover. Stay cool this summer with Eight Sleep, now shipping within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU and Australia.

[00:38:14] This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. Whenever we travel, we enjoy staying at Airbnbs. I love that many properties come with amenities like a kitchen, laundry machines, free parking that's not freaking 60 bucks a night, having a backyard is nice, especially when we bring the kids around. We've stayed at an Airbnb in Kauai that had like an outdoor shower. So we built one at our own house as well. And we find that Airbnb hosts often go the extra mile to make our stays special. They provide local tips, personalized recommendations, sometimes a welcome basket. I know you guys are sick of my banana bread story, so I'll spare you on this one. There are a lot of benefits to hosting as well. You might have set up a home office. Now you're back in the real office. You could Airbnb it, make some extra money on the side. Maybe your kid's heading off to college in the fall. You're going to have that empty bedroom. You could Airbnb it, make a little cash while they're away. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills, or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

[00:39:11] This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Can't decide whether to invest in trade school or college? Should you stay at home with the kids, or should you opt for the corporate life? Deciding whether or not to start a family, adopt, or remain child free. Life's crossroads can be both exhilarating and daunting, and therapy can be a trusty compass guiding you through uncharted territory. People think therapy is just for those who've weathered life's biggest storms. For sure, it's beneficial for navigating such challenges, but let's be real, it's like that surprise pop quiz you never studied for. Delving into therapy can empower you with the tools to face challenges head on and decide your next steps with clarity and confidence. If the idea of therapy has ever piqued your curiosity, BetterHelp is worth exploring, all digital. A swift questionnaire is all it takes to connect you with a qualified therapist. And the best part? If the fit isn't quite right, you can change therapists without any hassle or extra cost.

[00:39:58] Annie Ikpa: Let therapy be your map with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:40:07] Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals, and we have updated our AI chatbot. That's going to be ingesting the episodes really fast, so there's not going to be this weird delay where it doesn't have the promo codes, and we're working on making that even faster and better for you. Jordanharbinger.com/ai is where you can search for anything ever on the show, including sponsors. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show.

[00:40:37] Now for the rest of my conversation with Annie Ikpa.

[00:40:42] I've dealt with corruption in other countries before, and I've done interviews with people before about corruption. And it's always that kind of the same thing. What's interesting in other episodes that I've done about places where it's really hard to get anything done is the people who are trying to get something done, the people in country who they're dealing with who are kind of maybe pocketing some of this stuff, they're almost surprised that the counterparty in the US, UK, Australia, wherever doesn't want to also dip into it. So I'm wondering if anybody was like, "Come on. This is really good We can ride this for a while," and you're like, "No, I actually want to stop this horrific practice."

[00:41:16] Annie Ikpa: I was never approached, but I do know that members of my team were, and they were never compromised. This is what I'm saying, I think I never trusted anyone until right at the end when I found, you know, my core team who were like minded. Even at that time, they were propositioned. For some, it's an unpopular law, you know?

[00:41:37] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:37] Annie Ikpa: And people make a lot of money from this practice. There were lots of people, I feel, who didn't want this law to become enacted. So bribes, of course, were a part of that process.

[00:41:50] Jordan Harbinger: So there is pushback on the law. I was going to ask about that. I can't imagine there's a lobby for witch doctors, but what other kind of powerful allies would they?

[00:41:58] Annie Ikpa: I can't really answer that.

[00:42:00] Jordan Harbinger: Can't really answer that. Okay. Fair enough. Because, you know, in the United States, when something doesn't get passed, it seems like a no brainer, you just need look no further than the lobbying organization for whatever manufactures the product that's been killing a zillion people. And then you have your answer. But it seems like with witchcraft... Who's lobbying for witchcraft? Who knows? Well, you do know, but we can't talk about it. I see. That's fine.

[00:42:24] Does this practice happen anywhere else? You mentioned Ghana. Does it happen all over Africa? Do we know? Does it happen in other countries that we've, that you know of?

[00:42:34] Annie Ikpa: So I know of it happening in Nigeria, Ghana, yes, Botswana, Sierra Leone. It's quite prevalent in India and Tanzania.

[00:42:43] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:42:44] Annie Ikpa: Actually, in Tanzania, it's albino children who are most wanted.

[00:42:50] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow.

[00:42:50] Annie Ikpa: So they've got a huge problem there. What we're actually hoping is that this bill, which is the first of its kind, by the way, should be a benchmark or can be a benchmark for other countries who are suffering from this practice. You know, to just use and adopt these provisions, don't take seven, eight years to do this. There's no need. We have got something that is watertight and comprehensive. You just need to localize it. So we are hoping that other countries will follow suit.

[00:43:18] Jordan Harbinger: Albino children. How isn't that? That's extremely rare. And hence, the whole reason that they're valuable. Is that why? Is it more common over there? Because I feel like in my entire life, I've seen like three albino people.

[00:43:30] Annie Ikpa: There are lots. Yeah, no, no, no. They're far more common in Tanzania. I don't know. I'm not sure why.

[00:43:35] Jordan Harbinger: Huh.

[00:43:35] Annie Ikpa: I'm not sure why they are more common there.

[00:43:37] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like, aside from the fact that people are trying to kill you for your parts, it seems like a bad place to have no pigment in your skin, just being in a place that, that is that warm and sunny and it's uncomfortable in California, I'm sure. So I can't imagine how uncomfortable it is in a place like that.

[00:43:52] Annie Ikpa: On top of everything else. Yeah. No, I'd rather not imagine it.

[00:43:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. On top of everything else. So when it passed, how did it feel? I mean, you must've been proud, but also I would imagine an element of relief after so long, like you can finally get a good night's sleep.

[00:44:04] Annie Ikpa: Yeah. I couldn't believe that it was over.

[00:44:07] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:07] Annie Ikpa: I knew it was going to pass sort of, but I have this surface-level doubt. Do you ever like, I don't know when you were going for an exam, I don't know what you were like at school—?

[00:44:15] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:15] Annie Ikpa: Whether or not you crammed your revision in, whether or not—

[00:44:18] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:44:18] Annie Ikpa: —you're really studious—

[00:44:19] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah, that too.

[00:44:19] Annie Ikpa: But do you know when you sort of talk yourself down, and you're like, "Oh, I didn't really sh*t with that exam," but you know—

[00:44:27] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:27] Annie Ikpa: —you sort of always know you actually did pretty well, so that when you do well, it feels even better. I've got this weird thing. I do do that.

[00:44:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:44:34] Annie Ikpa: And I think I must have done that a bit with the bill because I talked to myself right down to the ground in the days leading up to it. And for good reason though, I think it was touch and go for a while. So when it did actually pass, there was just this feeling of complete and utter elation. Just that the last seven, eight years had not been for nothing because that was a particular fear. How am I going to live with myself if this doesn't pass? What am I going to do with my life? It was just a feeling that I really can't describe. Monumental, something that had been a seed of an idea eight years before had turned into this.

[00:45:12] Jordan Harbinger: You must be extremely proud. I mean, you've doubtlessly saved many children's lives just because, look, putting a log in something doesn't mean nobody ever does it, but it certainly would make it harder to do, drive it more underground, make it so other people realize they can't get away with it and maybe go into a different business. I mean, there's no kind of getting around that you've saved possibly tens of thousands of children, just judging by the numbers that I came across online.

[00:45:37] Annie Ikpa: I mean, that's a huge, huge number. And not just me, I'm sure that children's lives have been saved, but I had a really, really incredible team. You know, I have to honor them. They did incredible work. And this is not, you know, it would have been damn near impossible without my funders, without the MP who pushed this through, without the Director of Public Prosecutions, without World Vision, without Children on the Edge. It was a real collective. And eventually, it ended up being a Ugandan initiative. And that's what you want. They really owned that at the end. You know, this was not mine. And I don't think it ever was. It was just so much bigger than just me. So yes, I had so much pride and I still do. It passed two years ago, May the 4th, and I can't put into words how it actually changed me. And it feels like it passed 10 years ago, but it was actually, it was only two years ago, and it's doing amazing things and it's doing what it was designed to do and I couldn't ask more than that.

[00:46:38] Jordan Harbinger: I heard you were able to see the bill passed, but there was almost a fashion faux pas that ruined the day. You want to tell us about that?

[00:46:44] Annie Ikpa: Oh my god.

[00:46:47] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, how do you blow this, that particular? Like way to trip on the finish line, but—

[00:46:51] Annie Ikpa: I'm telling you.

[00:46:52] Jordan Harbinger: Almost.

[00:46:53] Annie Ikpa: I'm telling you, but it would have been so typically me, you know?

[00:46:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's funny.

[00:46:58] Annie Ikpa: I knew that I wanted to see this bill pass in real life, you know? And I didn't care what show I was working on. I'm freelancing. It's really difficult to just nip out of a job for a week or two.

[00:47:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:47:11] Annie Ikpa: But I knew that no matter what it was, I'd fly to Uganda and I would see this thing. And I got a call really early in the morning to say that the bill was being read. You know, when I say that I had a really crap few days where, you know, it was touch and go, it really was. So it really took me by surprise and I had about 45 minutes or so to get to Parliament. So I just threw on this jumpsuit, which just looked, it was too small for one.

[00:47:35] Jordan Harbinger: Is that like a tracksuit or sweatsuit?

[00:47:37] Annie Ikpa: It's like an all-in-one. It's like an adult baby grown.

[00:47:41] Jordan Harbinger: Like a onesie. You have a onesie.

[00:47:42] Annie Ikpa: Yeah, exactly like a onesie. Yeah, yeah. We have onesies, too, as well.

[00:47:45] Jordan Harbinger: Let me just go to the government in a onesie.

[00:47:47] Annie Ikpa: Well, I thought it was really nice. It was a really—

[00:47:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:50] Annie Ikpa: —nice jumpsuit, but I'd been eating a lot and it was just a bit tight and a bit inappropriate, but anyhow, I got in this kind of motorcycle taxi, told him to just, you know, drive like his life depended on it. And I turned up and the MP who had been championing this bill, just took one look at me and was like, "Well, you can't come in like this. You just, you can't."

[00:48:12] Jordan Harbinger: Where's your bag full of—?

[00:48:13] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:48:13] Jordan Harbinger: —other clothes—

[00:48:13] Annie Ikpa: I was like—

[00:48:13] Jordan Harbinger: —that you're going to wear—

[00:48:14] Annie Ikpa: Because—

[00:48:14] Jordan Harbinger: —to go inside?

[00:48:15] Annie Ikpa: —there's no kind of leniency with Ugandan Parliament. You can't sort of talk your way in. Once he'd said this, I knew that I need to go home.

[00:48:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh no.

[00:48:24] Annie Ikpa: And there was just no time. So I got my friend to send over a bag of clothes, luckily, and in the nick of time, in the nick of time, I was able to actually change and slip in and watch this bill be read. So, oh gosh, yeah, I was very, very grateful.

[00:48:39] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:48:40] Annie Ikpa: Mmm. Because can you imagine, like, you've been on this thing for most of your twenties—

[00:48:46] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:46] Annie Ikpa: —and some of your, you know, and you're not coming in because of literally the clothes on your bag. You wouldn't, you wouldn't have it. You wouldn't have it.

[00:48:55] Jordan Harbinger: And then you have to tell people for the rest of your life how you didn't see the bill pass because you were wearing a jumpsuit with too much cleavage or whatever.

[00:49:02] Annie Ikpa: No, it wasn't cleavage. It was just kind of sucking kind of my skin. I didn't look nice. I really didn't look nice. And I could understand why I wasn't let in. But yeah, I would never have lived it down.

[00:49:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's so funny. It's also very typically me. I mean, I drove to the wrong seat. for my bar exam, which is the exam you take for being a lawyer.

[00:49:22] Annie Ikpa: No way.

[00:49:23] Jordan Harbinger: How do you do that? How do you do that?

[00:49:25] Annie Ikpa: Your mind is elsewhere.

[00:49:26] Jordan Harbinger: It happens when your mind is literally anywhere but in the game.

[00:49:29] Annie Ikpa: Yeah. So no, thank God, right? Thank God.

[00:49:33] Jordan Harbinger: What are you going to tackle next? I expect people ask you this all the time and you're like, "Nothing, how about I have kids and not think about this crap anymore."

[00:49:40] Annie Ikpa: Well, yeah, that.

[00:49:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:49:41] Annie Ikpa: Which is quite the challenge in itself, but no, I'm still going with this. So, Uganda, I couldn't say goodbye to it. So for about a year or so, I think everyone just went, huh. Like we just want a bit of a break and some distance from this, but you know, passing the law, I believe, was probably the easier part of, or the easiest part of this whole process. I want to make sure that this bill is, this law is implemented. I'd like to work with communities at a grassroots level. There's just so much work to be done. And I think no, I'm not going to be, and I haven't been as involved as I used to be because I'm older now and I don't, literally don't have the energy.

[00:50:25] Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. I hear that. I'm laughing because I frigging get that, man.

[00:50:28] Annie Ikpa: It's a struggle, and I was single then. I've got a boyfriend now.

[00:50:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:50:32] Annie Ikpa: So I just, you know, I can't keep flying back, but I and my team are back together and we are making sure that certain things are in place so that this law is used as effectively as it can be. And I think independently, I would love to see other countries adopt this and work with other countries one on one just to try and see if there is a way that the issues that they're facing can be somewhat alleviated with this law.

[00:51:00] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense, right? Hammer the nails in good and tight instead of taking on a new challenge that is going to derail your whole life.

[00:51:06] Annie Ikpa: Exactly. And then I can retire.

[00:51:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:51:08] Annie Ikpa: Then I can retire from this I think.

[00:51:10] Jordan Harbinger: There you go, you think. Yeah. You never know. I mean, you just don't know. You don't seem like the type, but you know, kids will change you. I'll tell you that.

[00:51:18] Annie Ikpa: Mmm. You have children.

[00:51:19] Jordan Harbinger: I do. I have two little kids. One's three and a half and one is one and a half-ish. And so it's not only that I don't have the energy to do something big like that anymore, it's that if I did, I certainly wouldn't spend it on something like that because my kids love seeing me and vice versa, of course. So I want to spend time with them. I don't want to like start a chain of dry cleaning businesses just to have another business running, right? Which is the equivalent—

[00:51:44] Annie Ikpa: Fair enough. Okay, just, yeah.

[00:51:46] Jordan Harbinger: Like if I've got extra energy, I'm using it to go run around in the backyard or build a treehouse.

[00:51:52] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:51:52] Jordan Harbinger: I am not using it to get legislation passed in Africa.

[00:51:55] Annie Ikpa: Sure. Well, luckily, that's ticked done, right?

[00:51:58] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:58] Annie Ikpa: This is less intense, right? I can sort of pick and choose when I sort of go there. There's no sort of deadline for this. Because I imagine this is going to continue for the rest of my life, but—

[00:52:06] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:52:06] Annie Ikpa: I'm hoping that I can just make a couple more dents before I become a mom, and then I'll properly slow down, I think.

[00:52:13] Jordan Harbinger: Good for you. Although I will say, don't wait too long for the mom thing. The earlier the better. I wish I had kids earlier and I can imagine—

[00:52:19] Annie Ikpa: Yeah.

[00:52:19] Jordan Harbinger: —that you're going to be a great mom. I mean, you're a caring person. You care about kids who aren't even yours, which I think a lot of people pretend to do, but don't necessarily. So I wish you all the best with that, and with everything that you're doing. Thank you so much.

[00:52:31] Annie Ikpa: Thanks, Jordan. Pleasure to be on the show.

[00:52:36] Jordan Harbinger: You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Ishmael Beah, who at the age of 13 was forced to become a child soldier.

[00:52:43] Ishmael Beah: I started when I was 13. The first day that we went to war, I think it was the most terrifying thing that ever happened to me, just on the way there.

[00:52:52] Knowing what we were going to do, but it hasn't yet happened. Having this feeling that I was descending into some kind of darkness into some place that was going to chip away from who I had been that I will no longer get back truly and then there was an ambush and then we started exchanging fire and people who look like us were shooting at us. And there was a kid that when we were training had looked up to me. He was next to me and there was an explosion and his body flew. He was killed. There was blood all over my face and everything, and I just lost it. I realized at that moment that, listen, if I don't shoot, I'm going to end up like everybody else who's been killed next to me. And I started shooting. Shooting to kill. And whatever could get you as high as possible.

[00:53:35] So you feel like you're kind of in a long nightmare. You took it. That becomes a new reason to fight. You didn't want to come down from the high, but there's also, because you're on the high, you also get addicted to the violence itself. So you constantly keep yourself moving, being high, engaging in more violence until you remove from it, which is why sometimes people are shocked when soldiers come back from fighting and they're traumatized sometimes they shoot themselves, they become violent. When you go and take out another life and dehumanize it, in reverse, it dehumanize yourself, your own self, your own being. And it takes a lot of undoing.

[00:54:11] I was once a kid who loved hip-hop, Run DMC, LL Cool J, learned Shakespeare, wanted to be an economist, and then I became a soldier, and I started doing things that I didn't think I would ever be able to be in the position to do, but I did them.

[00:54:25] Jordan Harbinger: To hear about life in a war zone where he fought for three years before being rescued by UNICEF, check out episode 622 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:54:36] I forgot to ask on the show and clarified later. I asked how common, how prevalent is this? How many kids do we think this has actually happened to? Somewhere around 10,000 since 2007, perhaps for sacrificial purposes. That is a hell of a lot of kids for absolutely no good reason. I also didn't close the loop on the twins. There was the boy whose twin brother was essentially sacrificed in a really graphic way. I think he saw the whole thing. Mob justice ended up taking the day on that one. Of course, the surviving twin, he is very traumatized, but the man who did it was murdered brutally by the village. And I don't think anybody feels bad for that.

[00:55:10] I know, by the way, that we're already doing a fundraiser for the villages in Kenya, but I'd be remiss not to mention Annie's fundraiser here as well. It will be linked in the show notes. It's just giving, which I think is a GoFundMe-type thing for the UK. We'll link to that there in the show notes. It's a fundraiser to run awareness and sensitization within communities affected by child sacrifice, train up the judiciary over there and enable Annie to work with other countries that are also facing this issue. It's not just Uganda. It's apparently spread quite widely throughout Africa and even India and elsewhere so that they too can adopt and enact this law or similar law for their legal system. Again, that fundraiser will be in the show notes for those who want to participate.

[00:55:49] All things Annie Ikpa will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com or ask the AI chatbot on the website. Transcripts in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discount codes and ways to support the show also in the show notes and at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget our newsletter at jordanharbinger.com/news. We dig into an older episode, dissect the lessons and takeaways from it. If you want to know what to listen to next or just grab a gem from a past episode, the newsletter is a great place to do that. Again, jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. A lot of feedback from you guys on this. All really, really helpful and constructive. So thank you so much for that. Don't forget Six-Minute Networking at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me right there on LinkedIn.

[00:56:34] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, and the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who would be really interested in this type of episode, definitely share this episode with them. Maybe give them a little heads-up about the subject matter. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[00:57:06] This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. With over two million podcasts out there, finding a new one can be frustrating, so let me save you a bunch of time and tell you about a podcast that I mentioned before called Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. In each episode, Mike talks with leading experts on topics that really affect you, like the psychology of secrets, what causes coincidences, the joy of sweat. Humans are one of the very few species that sweat. I don't know if there's joy in that, but you know what, Mike's the expert. Topics and guests are always fascinating and what's great is Mike asks questions that really get to the heart of the topic. He's an experienced host, he comes for the radio industry, just a gem of a dude. Something You Should Know is fun, it's entertaining. You will learn something new and useful in every episode. Sound familiar? It was listed in Apple's Shows We Love. an honor that I never got, by the way, and listeners have given it thousands of five-star reviews, so give it a listen. Search for Something You Should Know where you get your podcast and when you see this bright yellow light bulb, start listening and you can thank me later, Something You Should Know.