881: Finding Your Angle in Covert Love Triangle | Feedback Friday

881: Finding Your Angle in Covert Love Triangle | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Airbnb for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe you've stayed at an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Yeah, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb." It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. Find out how much your place is worth at airbnb.com/host.

[00:00:21] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my epistolary co-pilot, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from astronauts to war correspondents, Russian spies to money laundering experts.

[00:00:53] This week, we had Kevin Dutton on the wisdom of psychopaths. We did a little remix on there. It's a bunch of fun tests that we take on the show to know whether you're a narcissist, psychopath, sociopath. A little bit of non-scientific science there, I would say. Or maybe you're a cute little mix of all three. We also had Ian Bremmer on global threats to global stability. And we did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on body language and reading body language. That one was with Andrew Gold.

[00:01:20] On Fridays, though, that's today, whatever day it might be for you, it's Friday for us, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play the occasional obnoxious soundbite, and stumble into truly meaningless debates. Like, is it pronounced chaise lounge? Or chaise long? You know, real life-changing stuff.

[00:01:36] So, Gabe and I were talking recently about breakups, how absolutely brutal they are, and how fascinating they are, how they can either rip your heart out of your chest, or they can bring you back to yourself and put you on a better path, usually a little bit of both, which is super fun. They're painful, they're confusing, they're destabilizing, and they're also clarifying, enlivening, and often meaningful. I mean, once you get out of the whole eating Cap'n Crunch for every meal and crying while you watch America's Got Talent phase, you know, I think then the benefits start to accrue.

[00:02:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Speaking of America's Got Talent, I don't know if you know this, but I love that show. I did not know that. I mean, I watch the clips on YouTube, I don't watch the actual show, but that show really gets me. Those Golden Buzzers, dude, like, I don't know, I just love watching the remix clips on YouTube. I don't know why it's like just a guilty pleasure of mine, I guess.

[00:02:22] Jordan Harbinger: I kind of get it. It's like, you know, I watched 90 Day Fiancé, which is several rungs beneath America's Got Talent in terms of talent.

[00:02:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: But highly entertaining, that show.

[00:02:31] Jordan Harbinger: Indeed. That's my Feedback Friday. Like I want people who willingly light their life on fire—

[00:02:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:37] Jordan Harbinger: —presented to me every single week.

[00:02:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: The Golden Buzzer thing reminds me of the episode we did with Howie Mandel.

[00:02:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: We went to his office, showed us his whole office. He's got this big old TV in there. And after the show, which was episode 210, by the way, I can't remember why, but he said something like, "Hey, you guys want to see the Golden Buzzer from last night?" And I said, "Sure." So he puts, I guess it's not a tape, probably a DVD something.

[00:03:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:00] Jordan Harbinger: He puts it on the TV, and we sat down with him, and we watched the show with Howie Mandel, sort of director's cut.

[00:03:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:03:07] Jordan Harbinger: So it was really cool. I remember being like, "So the Dunkin' Donuts cups, those are always facing the same direction. I assume somebody deliberately turns that." He's like, "Oh, yeah, there's a person that's always making sure those are facing the camera," and he's like, "It's not just a regular cup." It's some sort of dual-layer thing where the outside never gets condensation on it. It always hits the light in a certain way. It's like D — what's the word? Not deglossed, like, maybe matte?

[00:03:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Matte.

[00:03:31] Jordan Harbinger: So that really bright lights, there's no glare on the logo, it's always readable. And there's a whole thing where they're like making sure that that's always, always readable.

[00:03:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: That makes so much sense because have you noticed how prominent the cups have gotten in America's Got Talent?

[00:03:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they're probably like 10-million-dollar cups.

[00:03:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: The new ones that I've been watching have these like bright red sonic cups that they place prominently in the frame and they like take sips from it like three to eight times during their judging during their commentary.

[00:03:59] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then, they like place it down with the logo perfectly. Yeah, I actually was wondering about this. That's so funny that you brought that up.

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:04:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: That show understands the capitalism very well.

[00:04:08] Jordan Harbinger: They do indeed. And it was really just amazing having him be like, "Here's why I gave them the Golden Buzzer. Here's what I look for in talent. Here's how this part of the show works. Here's when they filmed these things. Some of this stuff's done later. We add this in later." It was just, it was really, really cool to have a director's cut of a show that popular—

[00:04:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:04:26] Jordan Harbinger: —from somebody who is like, "Well, this isn't being recorded and it's all off the record, so here's this thing that probably I wouldn't want in an article." Yeah.

[00:04:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm jelly. I want to be in that room. I want to hear how they make that show.

[00:04:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:04:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: That show really tugs on the heartstrings in a brilliant way. And the people who come on the show are so good. But the thing that gets me, which is obviously the whole point, is like their personal stories.

[00:04:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, like sometimes they'll get people with some really tragic backstory or some incredibly touching—

[00:04:53] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: —feeling or experience and then they sing the song and you're like, well, sh*t. Now I'm bawling in my closet studio watching this because, uh, you know, your dad died. Now you're singing about him.

[00:05:02] Jordan Harbinger: The original sort of viral clip, right, was that English guy who comes up, Simon Cowell's like, "So, you're going to sing opera," and he's like, "Yeah," and he's like, "Where do you work now?" He's like, "I work at Carphone Warehouse," which I guess is like the equivalent of the Verizon store or something like that in the United States.

[00:05:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who is that guy?

[00:05:21] Jordan Harbinger: Just some dude that looked really insecure, looked like a total schlep. His teeth were very sort of like not straight. You could tell him.

[00:05:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Paul Potts.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: What's his name?

[00:05:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Paul Potts.

[00:05:32] Jordan Harbinger: Paul Potts, yeah, he just looked like a guy who had never really done much with himself, and he wasn't. He was working at Carphone Warehouse, right? And he just slayed—

[00:05:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, he did.

[00:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: —that opera piece to the point where you're like moved to tears.

[00:05:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: And you've never rooted for somebody so hard. And then, Simon Cowell's like, "Wow, so you're working at Carphone Warehouse," and everybody in the audience is just cracking up because they're so happy this guy's just absolutely murdered it with his talent.

[00:06:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: So sweet. See, I love that. I love that stuff.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: They're good at constructing that stuff. All right—

[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway—

[00:06:07] Jordan Harbinger: Parting ways with somebody you care about — back to breakups, right? It can sometimes feel like a death, right? Sometimes it's even worse than a death, because you know the person is still alive, you just can't see or call or text them anymore. It's a weird concept.

[00:06:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: There's real grief in breakups. Grief over losing the other person. Grief over losing the life you had, the life you thought you'd have. Grief over the version of yourself that you were with that person. Breakups are rough, man. But they're super interesting. Because nine times out of ten, they force you to put your life back together in a new way. What happens after a breakup is often some of the most important work that we do.

[00:06:44] We reconnect with friends, we throw ourselves into our work, we seek out new ideas and people and experiences, and realize what we really want, stop eating Cap'n Crunch six times a day. Maybe we graduate to something like some kashi, keep it a morning thing. Going through a breakup is almost like shedding an exoskeleton, or something along those lines, and molting into a new person, hopefully, a better person, all because that other person is no longer there.

[00:07:10] Anyway, the more we talked about it, the more Gabe and I realized how fascinating breakups and breakdowns really are. So we decided to do a whole Feedback Friday episode just about the breakup stories you guys have shared with us recently, romantic, social, professional, existential. An episode all about the ends of things, and the interesting new beginnings that they create.

[00:07:29] All right, some doozies, fun ones, let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:07:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, My best friend is a guy named Richard, and we've moved through many life stages together, starting in junior high with relatively low conflict. I have another close friend, Jessica, whom I met at the end of high school. She was Richard's friend first, but she quickly became part of our friend group. At the beginning, Jessica and I hung out together a lot and actually ended up getting a bit physically intimate. Then, another one of our friends revealed to Jessica that Richard had feelings for her. Ever since, Richard and Jessica have been in a pretty healthy and stable long-term relationship. I've put my feelings for Jessica aside and enjoyed a more distanced friendship with her. Then, about a month ago, Richard moved across the country for his seasonal summer job.

[00:08:18] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, here we go. Tale as old as time.

[00:08:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jessica and I started to grow very close over late-night long conversations and fun nights at the billiards hall. It didn't take long before our competitive banter turned into flirting. And we hooked up.

[00:08:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Song as old as rhyme. Banging your girlfriend. There it is. A whole movie montage played in my head just now with a little Disney theme song. Culminating in you two collapsing onto a bed together. You know, that aerial camera with his poof in the hair. Yeah. So, all right, let's see what happens.

[00:08:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dick move, right?

[00:08:52] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: But, here's the thing. Jessica and Richard are in an open relationship.

[00:08:57] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:08:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. Okay.

[00:08:59] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting, but I'm going to guess that doesn't mean Richard is cool with his girlfriend sleeping with his best friends on 7th grade. I'm just going to go out on ye olde limb here.

[00:09:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair assumption. The letter goes on.

[00:09:10] Their only rule thus far has been no sleeping with people we know.

[00:09:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well, cool. Nailed it.

[00:09:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Cool, cool, cool. Tight, tight, tight.

[00:09:18] But Jessica has come to feel uncomfortable and disconnected with strangers. She tells me that the only people she feels comfortable getting intimate with are the friends she knows and trusts. And that she hadn't really gotten an opportunity to bring this up to Richard before he left.

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: I just forgot to mention that little detail before he boarded his flight to Pennsylvania for his seasonal apple-picking job. Sorry, babe. I, you know, that whole don't shag people we know thing. I don't love Tinder. I can only get it in with people that we've had movie nights with who you've known for a decade or more.

[00:09:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Love you. Safe flight.

[00:09:51] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

[00:09:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: She waves through the airplane window.

[00:09:55] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Sorry, I don't mean to get ahead of ourselves here, there's just, there's a lot happening and I can't contain myself, just flagging that Jessica is also playing a role in this as well.

[00:10:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel the same way as Jessica, not me, this is a letter again.

[00:10:09] I feel the same way as Jessica. To us, that's the kind of connection that makes physical intimacy enjoyable.

[00:10:15] Meaning with people they know.

[00:10:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: All that said, we both feel that our connection is not romantic, and that Richard is the obvious choice for Jessica as a long-term partner. But we both want the freedom to explore this rather than shame ourselves out of these feelings, which could come out in less healthy ways, like resentment or jealousy.

[00:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: Well, okay, I'm really trying to be quiet over here, but first of all, there are other ways of managing your feelings than shaming yourself for them.

[00:10:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:10:44] Jordan Harbinger: Although it's interesting that that seems to be like their only alternative that they can think of.

[00:10:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:10:49] Jordan Harbinger: And sure, resentment, jealousy, very normal, very common feelings, but you can work through those too, right? I don't know if resentment or jealousy are inherently unhealthy. I think what's more unhealthy is making choices that you think will help you avoid them—

[00:11:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:11:04] Jordan Harbinger: —because they seem so unpleasant.

[00:11:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[00:11:06] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, I'm not judging you here, I'm just noticing.

[00:11:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Immediately afterward, we told Richard the news. He wrote to us saying he was going to be radio silent for a bit, that he's processing this slowly, and that it's been rough.

[00:11:19] Yeah, dude's probably going through it. That's brutal.

[00:11:22] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Worst apple-picking season ever, I would imagine.

[00:11:25] Jordan Harbinger: Those summer varieties just don't taste quite as good when you know your best friend is railing your girlfriend back home, do they? Oh, Richard, well, you wanted an open relationship, bud. This sounds like so many open relationship stories that we see in our inbox or that I've seen on Reddit. It's just—

[00:11:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:11:42] Jordan Harbinger: This stuff has to be managed so carefully.

[00:11:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, yeah. I mean, live by the sword, die by the sword, I guess.

[00:11:48] Jordan Harbinger: Literally, yes, in this case.

[00:11:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, we're left waiting and wondering how badly we've hurt this important person in our life, while feeling scared to continue exploring. It seems to me that we either need to get this out of our systems and face the consequences, or revert back to a more distanced friendship. I'm hesitant about any middle ground. I don't think I'm a very disciplined person, and I worry that I'll lose control of myself again.

[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Literal metaphorical sword. Oh, that is interesting. This is something you might want to look at. I mean, call me crazy, but you don't have to bang your friend's girlfriend if you have a crush on her. You could also not do that. You could be a disciplined person if you choose to be. But keep going. I do think there's probably more to this.

[00:12:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know, I'm getting mixed signals here. I want to say that there are some big feelings that he can't ignore, but then he's also saying we're not right for each other. And this is not romantic.

[00:12:35] Jordan Harbinger: We've acknowledged that this is totally not a romantic thing. And I'm like, I don't believe you.

[00:12:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, let's circle back to that.

[00:12:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: The letter goes on.

[00:12:43] I think the root of this is that I'm a recovering people pleaser and nice guy and have found more stability by expressing my desires and going for what I want.

[00:12:52] Okay, that's interesting. So he's tired of being a pushover kind of and not going after what he wants. And this whole experience has made him feel either way, well, more alive, right?

[00:13:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: More empowered. I can, I get that. It's still really very messy, but it doesn't forgive what he did, but it does help explain why he did it.

[00:13:08] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. This is not the first guy to get into dicey territory, chasing a girl that he's drawn to. It's complicated stuff.

[00:13:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I think I've also developed some pretty nasty qualities as a result. Something about putting myself first, especially in this situation, has made me want to be a better person in the situations that matter.

[00:13:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, dude, you're growing. You did something that has some pretty serious consequences for somebody you care about, and now you're going, "Hmm, how should I conduct myself?" This is what your 20s are about. I actually do commend you for wanting to learn from this.

[00:13:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do too. This is going to be a formative experience, this whole thing.

[00:13:43] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:13:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Letter goes on.

[00:13:45] So now I'm torn between protecting Richard and wanting to connect with Jessica. I think I would hate myself if I lost my best friend or if I caused them to break up, but I also don't know that I would.

[00:13:57] Okay.

[00:13:58] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, there's the big wrinkle here, just how much Richard means to you. "I don't know that I'd hate myself if I lost my best friend or stole his girlfriend," therein lies the rub.

[00:14:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, literally.

[00:14:10] Jordan Harbinger: Get your mind out of the gutter. The puns are too easy with this one, we got to raise the bar here a little bit.

[00:14:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's do that, yeah. Apologies.

[00:14:15] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, what do I do here? Do I restrain myself from hanging out with Jessica, losing the closest friend I have right now to avoid the temptation of sleeping with her again? Do I submit to my desires and potentially lose my best friend, but in turn, learn my lesson for good? Or is the best path somewhere in between? Signed, Putting both Fs in BFF.

[00:14:39] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, despite the fact that we were being a little tough on you while Gabe read your letter, I actually think this is a very common story.

[00:14:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:47] Jordan Harbinger: You're not a total a-h*le, open relationships often lead to precisely these types of conflicts.

[00:14:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:54] Jordan Harbinger: I also feel Jessica is equally culpable here, and honestly, so much of what you're describing is just typical mid-20s crap. You're having a lot of these feelings and experiences for the first time. You're figuring out your desires, your values, your emotions. I cut you some slack because this stuff takes time. And to your point, it's often by making mistakes and hurting people that you realize what kind of guy you actually want to be. So, we're not going to, like, demonize you here. But we will try to keep it real.

[00:15:23] Basically, you fell for your best friend's girl. Like I said, tale as old as time. This is a classic love triangle and it creates an interesting choice, whether to pursue your feelings for this person, or whether to do right by your best friend.

[00:15:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:15:36] Jordan Harbinger: Now, the Midwestern Boy Scout in me wants to go, look, man, this is your best friend since middle school. What the hell are you doing chatting with this girlfriend on the phone at one o'clock in the morning, playing pool with her for hours, then hooking up with her? What is wrong with you? But the Feedback Friday guy, who's made some of these types of mistakes, not this exact thing, thankfully. I mean, we've all done dumb crap as a kid, right? That guy, me, wants to go, look, you were crushing on this girl, her boyfriend was away, you were both drawn to each other, life is crazy, maybe you had to make this mistake to learn some things. Hopefully, you learned the right things.

[00:16:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think both of those responses are appropriate, you know, this can all be true at the same time.

[00:16:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I guess the line I'm trying to walk is, can we recognize that this was an objectively sh*tty thing to do to your best friend and for Jessica to do to her boyfriend, full stop, and that wanting to sleep together also reveals some very meaningful stuff about both of these people?

[00:16:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, of course. That's what we're here for, man. This situation is fascinating. Let's start with him, right? Okay, to me, the most meaningful thing that this reveals is that he's drawn to this girl and he doesn't want to be the nice guy people pleaser anymore.

[00:16:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. This was kind of about Jessica, but in a way it's not about Jessica like he said—

[00:16:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:16:47] Jordan Harbinger: —they both agree they don't see each other long-term romantically, which is an interesting possibly not super credible detail in a way that makes this worse.

[00:16:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, kind of. Because it's like, well, if this girl isn't the one, or somebody you're madly in love with, then why did you risk your whole friendship with Richard?

[00:17:03] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It seems like a really crap trade. If you're going to trade your best friend for somebody, that person should be like your future wife. Not like, well, she was cute and we play, we get along. We hooked up before.

[00:17:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: She is great on the billiards table, like what?

[00:17:16] Jordan Harbinger: It makes no, absolutely, absolutely no sense. So if he's just interested in having fun and getting more experience, there are loads and loads of people you can do that with. This sounds to me like scarcity mindset, like, "Oh gosh, there's only one girl in the universe and my friend has her right now, but he's picking apples. Time for me to shine." Although, he did also say he's not really into hooking up with strangers, but, eh, whatever, everybody's a stranger until you get to know them, right? Maybe go get to know somebody else who's not going to nuke your entire social life. So, it's like, are you just coming up with a reason to go after a girl who's super close to you because you have access? That's what I'm at with this.

[00:17:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair question. Also, let's remember that he was involved with Jessica first, and then somebody told her that Richard was into her. And she started a relationship with Richard. They broke up. She got together with Richard. He kind of breezed past that in the letter, but I wonder if that's part of the nice guy thing. Part of why he was drawn to this whole situation. Like did he just sit back while this girl he liked went off and chose another guy? And maybe that hurt a little bit. And now, he's like, "Well, hey, I'm going to get her back. I have a chance. I'm going to reclaim something." I mean, look, that's a bummer, right? Like there must've been a little bit of a wound there.

[00:18:19] Jordan Harbinger: I think so. I think that's a good point. It could be this. We're speculating a little, but that would explain a lot. He liked her. Then his best friend is like, "I'm going for it." And he doesn't want to be like, "No, I'm just kind of being a wimp, but I like her." He's like, "Yeah, go for it." They click. And he's like, "Damn it."

[00:18:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Damn it.

[00:18:33] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So that would explain a lot. However, it's also confusing because he's now saying, "Oh, clearly, Richard's her guy. I'm not the one for her long term."

[00:18:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:18:42] Jordan Harbinger: Richard is. Maybe that's true. Again, I don't really buy it. I think he's self-protecting here a little bit. It's hard to say that doesn't add up for me. What I'm also trying to get at is Jessica was the first woman he saw and he was like, "All right, I'm tired of being this passive nice guy. I'm sick of not going after what I want. I want to feel alive, but I only want her a little bit, not a lot because, you know, after all, it's my best friend's girlfriend." Just, none of that jives.

[00:19:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:19:06] Jordan Harbinger: And he did that at the expense of his friend. I feel like that's the real issue here, this lack of discipline thing, this classic masculine need to chase things and be victorious act.

[00:19:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely, that impulse is important for him to understand whether this was right or wrong from a moral standpoint. But the fact that he chose sleeping with Jessica over his friend. To your point, Jordan, that raises some interesting questions about how he feels about Richard, too. I'm with you. I almost wish this story were more like, "Look, I like Richard, but Jessica and I are soulmates, and I think of, like, I'm going to die if I can't be with this person."

[00:19:40] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: "And as much as that sucks, it's a horrible situation, that's more important to me than my friendship with Richard." It would still be incredibly messy and hurtful, but at least I would understand what's at stake.

[00:19:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Okay, in college, I had a buddy, and he was dating this really cute girl, and I think I was single at the time, or I was having problems with the girl that I was with, or I didn't see myself long term. And my friend pulls me aside, we're drinking, and I was like, "Your girlfriend's really charming, man." He goes, "Look, here's the thing, she's great. She's not the one for me long term, we're different religions. She wants all these different things out of life. I'm probably not going to date her for that long. I almost want to figure out how to transfer this relationship to you."

[00:20:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:20:18] Jordan Harbinger: "Because you guys would be so good together and she thinks you're awesome. And basically, I think she would date you if she wasn't with me."

[00:20:24] And I was like, "Oh."

[00:20:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:20:26] Jordan Harbinger: This is really interesting. But this was two friends being like, "Yo, practical stuff aside. This girl's great. You should date her. She's not for me."

[00:20:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:20:33] Jordan Harbinger: Like you said, that's what we were hoping happened here, right? But this is like the inverse of that situation.

[00:20:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:20:39] Jordan Harbinger: Also, anyway, in that above scenario that you mentioned, Jessica could have asked herself, "If I'm feeling drawn to somebody I'm close with, maybe that means this relationship with Richard isn't the right one for me. Let me go sort that crap out before I sleep with my boyfriend's best friend without handling anything else."

[00:20:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: The right way to handle this would be to break up with Richard first, then explore things with our friend, if that's what she wants to do.

[00:20:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, or change the terms of their open relationship to include people they know if that's an option, although I don't think Richard's going to be thrilled about this. Like, "Okay, fine. As long as it's not my best friend since childhood, fine.

[00:21:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct.

[00:21:11] Jordan Harbinger: It's about that.

[00:21:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: But your point is that they're kind of both at fault here.

[00:21:14] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: And man, that makes me feel even worse for Richard because he's kind of been betrayed by two of the closest people in his life. So rough.

[00:21:22] Jordan Harbinger: It's brutal. The radio silence is deafening. So what do you do here? I mean, the simple answer is to take a huge step back, distance yourself from Jessica for a bit, see how all of this settles. But now that the deed is done, several times, I assume, the damage is basically done. And I'm not sure we can tell you with total certainty what to do because the right answer here, in my view anyway, is more about asking yourself some big questions about yourself and your relationships and figuring out what really matters to you. What I'd be asking myself is how strongly do I feel about Jessica? Is this relationship truly meaningful or is it a passing fling? And you got to be honest with yourself.

[00:22:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: And do I want her, or do I want to be in touch with the part of myself that wants things and doesn't stop myself from going after them?

[00:22:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good one, Gabe. That's a huge piece here. It's an interesting question, whether he can separate the desire to chase the things he wants from the things themselves.

[00:22:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:22:17] Jordan Harbinger: Like, is he all hopped up on his libido, or is he hopped up on Jessica specifically?

[00:22:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:22] Jordan Harbinger: Or is that ultimately the same thing?

[00:22:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's tricky, it's hard to separate those two things out. I do think they're a bit different, but that's such a good question to ask himself given his history of shutting down a lot of his desires and then possibly secretly resenting it or you know, like stewing on some difficult feelings when he doesn't get what he really wants.

[00:22:40] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. And hey, the other thing you need to figure out is how you feel about Richard.

[00:22:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:45] Jordan Harbinger: What role you want him to play in your life going forward and you and his? Do you still care about him? Can he forgive you and still care about you at this point? Is this woman more important than your friendship, less important, whatever? Do you want to bang buddy for another six months or is that friendship potentially for decades to come? I'm not presupposing the answers here. I mean, maybe we kind of are in our tone, but these are just good questions for you to ask.

[00:23:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, this whole Jessica debacle, it's interesting. It's kicked up a lot of new questions and feelings for this guy, right? And they're all swirling around him in a very overwhelming way, and I feel like his job now is to just like pluck them from the air and go like, "Oh, interesting. There's a good question. What does that say about me?" And slowly sort through what this relationship/mistake brought up. The one thing he can sort pretty easily, though, is this whole, I can't control myself, thing. I don't think he needs to go through life suppressing all of his feelings. I think it's pretty obvious from our response, but we don't think that's the answer.

[00:23:45] The best-case scenario here would have been to acknowledge his feelings for Jessica, sit with them for a bit, maybe talk to her about them, see how she was feeling, whether they were both on the same page, whether they were willing to invite this risk by getting involved with each other and how and when, that's one way to stay in control while still being in touch with his desires and with himself. But the fact that he feels out of control when a temptation kicks in, that's another thing for him to pluck and look at.

[00:24:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the language he uses is very telling. "Do I restrain myself? Should I avoid the temptation?"

[00:24:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:18] Jordan Harbinger: "Do I submit to my desires? Should I learn my lesson?" I just get the sense that this is a guy who's kind of at the whim of big feelings.

[00:24:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:26] Jordan Harbinger: And again, be real, we're human. We're all at the whim of feelings at some point. But the goal, to your point, Gabe, is to get more curious about them. Sit with them for a minute before texting your best friend's girl at two o'clock in the freaking morning.

[00:24:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:24:39] Jordan Harbinger: And maybe this guy struggles to do that, or the feelings just have a lot of pull over him. Maybe because, again, "I was a nice guy for so long. I'm sick of being trampled." You know, it reminds me of, well, I hate to make this comparison, but you see these sort of angry guys on Reddit that are like—

[00:24:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:55] Jordan Harbinger: "I'm sick of tired of this." And they blame women for or other people for a lot of them not getting what they want out of life. I'm not getting the full-on incel vibe from this guy.

[00:25:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:25:04] Jordan Harbinger: Don't get me wrong.

[00:25:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:25:05] Jordan Harbinger: But it's a lot of the same stuff. Like, "Now, it's my turn." And they're like, "I'm going to be super selfish." But instead of just prioritizing themselves, they're like, "Oh, this means burning everything in my wake."

[00:25:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:25:17] Jordan Harbinger: And then, a year later being like, "Why don't I have any friends?" Oh, oops, you know, that's not good. It's not a good strategy.

[00:25:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: How does he advocate for himself and take himself seriously without damaging people around him or taking what isn't appropriate?

[00:25:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: But this whole thing that you just said about the temptation and the struggle to deal with these big feelings might be why the middle ground feels so risky to him. He feels that he either needs to stay far away from this girl to stay safe or he needs to go all in with her and risk losing his best friend. And hey, maybe that's true in the short term on some level. Maybe you guys do need some distance, that's fair. But in the bigger picture, what you could be working toward is a relationship with your feelings that allows you to tolerate the tension of these situations a little bit better. You know, something that makes room for all of these feelings, right? The desire, the excitement, the anxiety, and also the difficult ones you mentioned, the jealousy, the resentment, and gives you more control over how you behave and whom you share those feelings with.

[00:26:17] Jordan Harbinger: That takeaway from this whole thing, that he doesn't need to suppress his impulses but he doesn't need to be completely in thrall to them either.

[00:26:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:26:27] Jordan Harbinger: So to zoom way out, it sucks things played out this way. But now that you're here, it's time to learn to be kind to everybody involved, especially Richard, who's off on his own, just dealing with this somehow on his bunk bed and the apple orchard or whatever, and to be patient while the dust settles. So much can change and a lot of it is outside your control now. The most important thing is how you move through this. And what you take away from it. This mistake — and I'm putting mistake in air quotes because I actually think in some sense this had to happen for you to grow — this mistake is an opportunity for you to learn a lot about yourself, figure out which relationships to prioritize, and develop your values in situations like this, which you're already doing. So good luck.

[00:27:09] And anyone in an open relationship, take notes, this stuff can get messy if you're not prepared to manage it well. You know, maybe Richard will forgive you if you hook him up with one of the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:27:22] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Considering your next professional step? How exciting. Thinking about the possibility of starting a family, maybe you're thinking of relocating or reassessing a romantic relationship. Regardless of the life juncture you're navigating, therapy can act as your compass to the future, instilling in you the self-assurance to guide your life towards your chosen path. Therapy is not only for tackling life's heavy traumas, it's great for that too, It's also there for everyday folks like us, navigating the stress and uncertainty that come with major life decisions. Therapy can be your secret weapon for mastering the art of stress management, setting healthy boundaries, charting your path forward. Don't just vent to your friends. They're sick of it. They're not trained to help you anyway. Give therapy a shot. Check out better help. It's entirely online, no driving, no parking. It's designed for convenience. You answer a quick survey, you get matched up with a therapist. If you don't vibe with them, no problem, switch anytime. It doesn't cost a thing. 23,000 certified therapists, you're going to find somebody you match with. I definitely think it's a good step toward dipping your toes in the therapy waters.

[00:28:24] Jen Harbinger: Let therapy be your map with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's Better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:28:34] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Grammarly. Writing is an inevitable part of life. Job applications, crafting that perfect wedding speech, even just daily social media posts, it takes a long ass time. Well, Grammarly has a new AI-powered tool called Grammarly Go, which can streamline your writing. Grammarly Go doesn't just help with grammar, it adapts to your unique voice and offers assistance based on what you need. Running low on creative ideas? It happens to the best of us. Simply use prompts such as suggest ideas for taco truck decor or provide 10 potential video thumbnail taglines. With Grammarly Go, writer's block becomes a thing of the past, boosting your productivity and making writing enjoyable rather than a chore. Grammarly Go was super helpful when Jen needed help crafting a memorial speech for her late uncle, something she'd never had to do, by the way, and it was crucial to find the right words. You got to honor a loved one. You got to comfort the family in mourning. Grammarly Go helped find the perfect tone and even suggested ways to honor a loved one's memory. It was actually quite impressive. It's really a game changer and it's free to use.

[00:29:32] Jen Harbinger: You'll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly Go. Go to grammarly.com/go to download and learn more about Grammarly Go. That's G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y.com/go.

[00:29:45] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on. All deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Ask the AI chatbot. Email me, I'll shove the code right down your throat. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:30:00] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:30:04] Okay, what's next?

[00:30:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, last year, in an effort to make new friends, I started a tabletop gaming group. We typically meet up at one person's house weekly. Let's call him John. John is 10 to 15 years older than the rest of the group and is somewhat eccentric, but I've always thought of him as friendly and kind and been willing to overlook his minor annoyances. Shortly after inviting some new members to the group, there was an issue with John that we all addressed together. After that, we decided to have John and another member, Brad, split the responsibilities of leading the sessions. Eight months later, Brad texted me saying that he's tired of dealing with John's personality and can't handle him any longer. Upon discussing this with the rest of the group, we also learned that the only woman in the group has been made to feel uncomfortable by some of his comments. Nothing sexual in nature, but he has made some jokes rooted in stereotypes and prejudice. John struggles with social cues and doesn't understand that his sense of humor isn't always well received. Brad also expressed that he's controlling in the game, doesn't take feedback well, and frequently buys things for the game that he holds over our heads. All of this was enough for the group to decide to move on without him. I advocated for discussing this with him, but the others felt it would only prolong the inevitable. So, Brad and I went to his house to talk. It felt like we fired him from a job. It was cold. Brad did most of the talking while I stared at my feet. Given that he's hosted us for over a year and we're friends, it feels disrespectful and unkind to end things the way we did. I've wrestled with guilt and anxiety ever since. John doesn't fully understand what he's done to rub everyone the wrong way. He said he wants to have a conversation with everybody and that if we could move past this, he would still like to be a member of the group. He feels like what we did to him was mean, and I agree. But I'm not sure if the rest of the group is willing to give him a second chance. What should I do here? Signed, Give Him the Boot Because It's Hard Or Show This Guy Our Cards.

[00:32:01] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is sad, poor John. You guys are probably like, 35, he's pushing 50, this group is probably a huge part of his life, and the guy just cannot read the room.

[00:32:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:32:14] Jordan Harbinger: But then, the other members, especially this woman, they're like, "Uh, yeah, I don't love how John makes me fetch the iced tea from the kitchen and calls me skirt and buys custom miniatures for our Dungeons and Dragons games and then, reminds everyone how he paid for them, you're welcome guys." So I really feel for everyone here, including you, because you obviously have a lot of compassion for this guy, and your loyalties are split.

[00:32:38] So, candidly, I'm naturally more in the kick the super annoying tone-deaf manchild out of the group immediately camp because I have a hard time dealing with personalities like that. "I just came to sip a hard kombucha and play Yahtzee with my friends, not listen to you crack awkward sexist jokes from a 1970s joke book you found at a yard sale, John." But as I've gotten older, I think I've really begun to appreciate that most people deserve one real chance to work on something. He's probably been struggling with this his whole life as well.

[00:33:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I was about to say that, especially when you're dealing with a guy like John, who, I mean, he's not a total monster, right? He's not like a belligerent racist or an unmitigated a-h*le or like physically dangerous. That's a different thing. He sounds terribly socially inept, right? He's just not good with feedback. He makes off-color jokes, which yeah, that's dicey and maybe hurtful sometimes, but that might be more a symptom of his social challenges than his true beliefs. I do feel someone like that deserves at least a conversation.

[00:33:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The fact that this dude was completely blindsided by this conversation tells me he's probably more clueless than malicious is.

[00:33:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:33:47] Jordan Harbinger: I'm just imagining the other scenario in which you're like, "Settlers of Catan anyone?" and then you're just halfway through the game and he's like, "Guys, the Jews, am I right?" And it's just like, "Oh God." Okay, that it's a lot easier of a decision. The way this could have gone down is, "Listen, John, you're a valuable member of this group, you've been super generous with us, you've added a lot to our games, we really appreciate all of that. But as your friends, we feel we owe it to you to tell you that you've ruffled some feathers in the group. Unintentionally, I'm sure, and it's creating some tension that we'd like to resolve. I know this might be hard to take in. Our goal is not to make you feel bad in any way. This is just us pointing out some things that need to change if this group is going to continue harmoniously. Our hope is that you can take this on board and make things right with the group so we can go back to enjoying our games together."

[00:34:39] And then, you gently lay out the issues, the jokes, the comments, holding things over your heads, the rigidity, all that crap. Help him see how the rest of the group hears those things. That's John's big blind spot, obviously. And then, figure out what he would need to do to fix this, whether it's apologizing to the group or to Brad and this woman specifically, or just correcting his behavior and saying how it goes. Now, if you have this chat and in a month, John's back to cracking jokes like, "Hey, Rachel, did you forget to make us all sandwiches again? LOL!" or whatever, then I think you have full license to say, "Sorry, man. This is exactly what we're talking about." In fact, pointing out in real time that this is exactly the type of crap we're talking about is probably what this guy actually needs. But why jump straight to the breakup, you know?

[00:35:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, good question. There's a big upside for John and for the group as a whole if he can grow and if he can't grow, then you'll know that you did your part and he's not ready to get better and you won't feel the guilt and the anxiety. I mean, that's really the end of the story.

[00:35:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree. The fact that you're being so thoughtful about John, even when he was the one who acted a fool. It says a lot about you. So don't lose that. Just marry it with a little more courage to have some occasionally tough conversations. It's not easy, this situation, it sucks, but it is necessary sometimes so you guys can play Battleship or Uno or Settlers of Catan or whatever it is without a side of regressive misogyny and nerd flexing. Good luck.

[00:36:05] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or your borderline wife got pregnant with another dude and made your life a living hell, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.Com. We're here to help. And we keep every email anonymous.

[00:36:26] Okay, next up.

[00:36:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 28-year-old woman, and I recently got my heart broken by a man who's 11 years older than me. Our relationship only lasted a month, but within that short time we formed what appeared to be a sincere bond. We lived 90 miles apart, but the distance didn't bother us. We clicked well emotionally and intellectually, and we were looking for the same qualities in a partner. When we weren't together on the weekends, we were texting, emailing, or Facetiming every day. We even made personal Spotify playlists for each other. I can say with complete confidence that I had never met anyone like him before, and we were both excited to see how our relationship would progress. A few weeks ago, I spent the night at his place, and that was also the first time we had been intimate. He was very respectful, and it was obvious that we enjoyed each other's company. Two days later, we had been corresponding intermittently, yet something felt off. He finally emailed me, canceling our plans for the following weekend, and ultimately broke it off, admitting that our age difference was starting to become an issue for him. He said that he didn't want to lead me on, and that he couldn't see himself falling in love with me. I was completely blindsided and shocked by the whole thing. I told him how devastated and angry I was that he came to that conclusion without trying to talk it out, especially because we had seen each other just a few days before. He insisted that it wasn't about sex, but it still left me feeling taken advantage of. I might sound melodramatic, but I keep replaying our last interaction and wondering if there was something that I might have said or done wrong. I put so much trust in this person and it stings because I finally felt seen by a romantic partner and that's an incredibly rare feeling for me. Am I overanalyzing this entire relationship? Am I justified in feeling this hurt? How do I get over a betrayal by someone that I thought would never hurt me? Signed, Stuck in Grief and Disbelief at the Fact That This Love Was All Too Brief.

[00:38:25] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, I'm sorry things played out this way. This is obviously a very painful experience. To find somebody you connect with on several important levels, to then go be intimate with them, trust them, start getting excited about a future with them, and then find out that they suddenly feel differently, and then bam, it's over. That is very difficult. There's no way around it. So I know how distressing that must be. And I'm very sorry that you're hurting.

[00:38:49] This is interesting, though, because there's no way for you to know and no way we can know exactly what's in this guy's head and heart. All you're left with is what he told you. That the age thing was an issue, that he didn't see a future together, that he didn't want to lead you on, which, let's just appreciate, that is maddening. Not just that he feels differently but that you don't have access to more information about why he feels differently, which is absolutely his choice. And who knows, maybe there's ultimately not much to talk about, but it does deprive you of the information and the closure that you would have liked, and that sucks.

[00:39:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, what's so interesting to me about her letter is this is how so many breakups work, right?

[00:39:29] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Yeah, most of them I'd say. I think this is a pretty classic case of that ambiguous loss concept We've talked about on the show from time to time.

[00:39:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sometimes the two parties just don't feel the same things or want the same things or they do want the same things but they don't have the capacity to explore them right now anyway. You know, sometimes one person knows that the other is right from the get-go and it takes the other party a little bit longer to decide. And then, sometimes there's another variable like age or sex or distance. These things might not seem like a factor at first and then all of a sudden they can become one. So, I wonder if what you're angriest at is just this one difficult fact, which is you can't change other people. And you can't make them feel what they don't feel and you can't force them to talk to you if they don't want to. And you can't have, to Jordan's point, all the access to them that you wish you could have to make sense of things or feel better.

[00:40:21] Jordan Harbinger: In my experience, that is the hardest part about a breakup. And the really annoying thing is it's absolutely non-negotiable. When things break down—

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:29] Jordan Harbinger: —whether you get dumped or you lose a job or someone dies or an offer falls through, whatever the loss is you kind of bump up against the hard reality of the world.

[00:40:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:40:39] Jordan Harbinger: And you realize how little power you really have.

[00:40:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or you realize that the only power you have is in how you respond to the laws and what you choose to take away from it.

[00:40:47] Jordan Harbinger: Right, which is actually a considerable power, but it's not the power most of us wish we had when somebody goes away.

[00:40:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:54] Jordan Harbinger: The power we want is, love me, stay, tell me why!

[00:40:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:57] Jordan Harbinger: But that's not on the menu here.

[00:40:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:59] Jordan Harbinger: So, are you overanalyzing this entire relationship? Probably not. I think it's pretty normal to dissect a relationship after it ends and replay certain moments. You're trying to understand what happened. You're wondering what role you played in this, what role he played. That seems appropriate. What I would keep an eye on is what you're trying to get out of that analysis. It's one thing to be curious about why a relationship ended. It's another to torture yourself. Or to try to give yourself a sense of control by reliving certain moments over and over. Or to obsess for months and months without coming to any new insights. That's a different thing.

[00:41:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:41:37] Jordan Harbinger: But again, this is part of the powerlessness. You just can't know whether something you did or said played a role here. I think it's equally possible that this guy had his own reasons for ending the relationship and that nothing you could have said or done would have changed the outcome here. But after a breakup, I think we often fixate on the most painful interpretation.

[00:41:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:41:58] Jordan Harbinger: We assume we did something wrong as opposed—

[00:41:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:42:00] Jordan Harbinger: —to appreciating that the other person might have responded to us in a certain way or that it just wasn't the right fit.

[00:42:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, ruminating on the relationship might also be a way to cope with that powerlessness because she can't make him talk to her or give it another shot, but she can replace certain moments and imagine ways she could have controlled the outcome better if only in her mind.

[00:42:19] Jordan Harbinger: For sure, but again, she just doesn't know. And one of her projects right now, it seems to me, is learning to make peace with that.

[00:42:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:42:27] Jordan Harbinger: So, are you justified in feeling this hurt? Eh. I'd say it's normal to feel hurt and confused when somebody leaves you at a particularly vulnerable moment, especially when a connection like this is very rare for you. But with a little more time and distance, maybe you can hold that hurt alongside some other feelings. Like, for example, that this guy let you know clearly and early on that things weren't going to work out, which is still very painful, but it was the right thing to do, rather than dragging things out and leading you on. Or the fact that maybe you got a little ahead of yourself, maybe you got caught up in this idea of a future with this guy before you had enough data that he was on the same page too. Everyone does that in love to some degree, so please don't beat yourself up for this. Just appreciating that that might have played a role in how devastating this felt.

[00:43:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great point, Jordan. It's so hard to stay grounded and present in a new relationship, isn't it?

[00:43:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Like, there's so much, there's a lot of fantasy at work in the early stages of a romantic relationship. And that's when a lot of these stories get created. They almost want to create themselves in your mind.

[00:43:27] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's kind of wild. So, to answer your last question, how do I get over a betrayal by somebody I thought would never hurt me? Well, I actually think there are a couple of assumptions buried in that question that are very interesting and they might be worth looking at. And the first one is that this was a betrayal. You know, I absolutely appreciate why it feels like one, but I think what you'll find in time is that this guy made the decision that was right for him for reasons you might not ever fully know and that letting you know at this point was probably the best outcome.

[00:43:58] Ultimately, you and this guy were not compatible, full stop. It doesn't mean it wasn't a meaningful relationship while it lasted. It doesn't mean you guys didn't really connect in some way. None of this makes it less painful right now, but it's important to remember that if you guys were truly compatible, you almost certainly wouldn't find yourself in this situation. So it's worth reflecting on whether this is truly a betrayal or just a massive disappointment. I think the devastation you feel is very normal and very real, but the meaning you attach to it will help determine just how painful it is and also how you're going to cope with all of this.

[00:44:33] Jordan Harbinger: It's really an interesting question, Gabe, because what makes something a betrayal exactly? Betrayal implies disloyalty, right? But was this guy really being disloyal or was he being loyal to himself by being honest about what he wanted? And in a weird way, actually kind of loyal to her by being upfront.

[00:44:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:44:49] Jordan Harbinger: And I don't mean to minimize the pain she's in whatsoever. But you're right, there's a story in that concept of he betrayed me and that story is probably meaningful too. It's almost like there was a promise that wasn't explicit or wasn't made at all that existed only in her. It's a covert contract. Remember that term where one side has the idea and their head on the other side is completely unaware of it?

[00:45:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And that might even hold the key to how she interpreted a lot of things in this relationship. The other assumption I would look at is the idea that this was somebody who would never hurt you. I get that you didn't expect him to hurt you. Of course, I get that, but I wonder if there's a part of you that didn't want to believe that things could go differently or that you wouldn't be as vulnerable as you were. The reality is that anybody we care about in any situation we chase has the potential to devastate us and to put us in touch with some very difficult feelings, right? Like, them's the rules. Side note, I think that's how you know something is truly valuable to you. You know, if you don't feel vulnerable, if some part of you is not on the line in some sense, then you're either chasing the wrong thing or maybe you're self-protecting.

[00:45:52] So again, I don't mean to minimize your anger here either. It's totally valid, but I'm just inviting you to consider whether part of the anger you feel Is realizing that anyone, including somebody you really connected with, kind of has the potential to break your heart.

[00:46:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's another hard reality we come up against in a breakup. That the other person doesn't necessarily owe it to you to spare you any specific feelings. It's brutal, but it is so important. So I hope this gives you some new lenses on this breakup. I'm so sorry you're going through it right now. As you can tell, we know how hard it is. I promise this will get better with time, even if it doesn't feel that way now, it always does. But in the meantime, one of the best things you can do is try not to have too many judgments about this guy or yourself, and just try to appreciate these new feelings. What they've revealed about you, how you operate in a relationship, what you want. The great news is that you were willing to have a deep experience with another person. And when the right guy comes along, this'll all be pretty wonderful. Mostly wonderful. Love always sucks sometimes, right? I guess you clearly have a big heart and that is such a gift. So take care of it.

[00:47:02] You know what else will blindside you, Gabriel? The crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:47:12] This episode is sponsored in part by Momentous. Live Momentous is widely trusted. It's quite, quite dramatic. Widely trusted by professionals, their products are the go-to in most pro and collegiate locker rooms. They're trusted by Olympians, professional athletes, top teams alike, all who vouch for their quality and efficacy. That's how they came to my attention in the first place. All products are NSF certified, which basically means what you see on the label is what you get. There's not weird fillers in there. There's no misleading claims. You know, they're always saying like, beware of binders, careful of the binders. Apparently, there's not so many of those in here. The Live Momentous Sleep Pack is more than just a sleep aid. My sleep coach recommended this. Andrew Huberman, who everyone's obsessed with now, he loves this thing. This is a scientifically backed formulation that helps you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer, ensures that the sleep you get is of the highest quality possible. Convenient single-serve pouches, make it easy for you to get your daily dose of sleep-enhancing nutrients. Look, it's vitamins and minerals, but the quality, as you know, varies on a lot of this stuff. This is high-quality stuff. Again, my sleep coach recommended it. I've been taking it for a while. I can see the sleep score difference from my Oura ring. So you wake up rejuvenated, filled with energy, ready to conquer the day. It's like the refreshing sleep you get on vacation, but now can be part of your everyday routine.

[00:48:23] Jen Harbinger: Designed by the world's best experts, used by the world's best teams and athletes, and made for all of us. Go to livemomentous.com and use code JORDAN20 for 20 percent off your first order. That's livemomentous.com code JORDAN20.

[00:48:37] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. Whenever we travel, we enjoy staying at Airbnbs. I love that many properties come with amenities like a kitchen, laundry machines, free parking. That's not fricking 60 bucks a night. Having a backyard is nice, especially when we bring the kids around. We've stayed at an Airbnb in Kauai that had like an outdoor shower. So we built one at our own house as well. And we find that Airbnb hosts often go the extra mile to make our stay special. They provide local tips, personalized recommendations, sometimes a welcome basket. I know you guys are sick of my banana bread story, so I'll spare you on this one. There are a lot of benefits to hosting as well. You might have set up a home office. Now, you're back in the real office. You could Airbnb it, make some extra money on the side. Maybe your kid's heading off to college in the fall. You're going to have that empty bedroom. You could Airbnb it. Make a little cash while they're away. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills, or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

[00:49:34] This episode is also sponsored in part by GiveDirectly. This cause tugs at my heartstrings and I can't help but share it with you all. I'm talking about GiveDirectly. It's a really awe-inspiring charity, steered by the visionary Rory Stewart, who was our insightful guest on episode 867. If you haven't checked that out yet, please do. I learned a hell of a lot from it, and he walked across Afghanistan and Iran, which is just fascinating. We successfully raised our initial goal of 20k, which became 40k thanks to our generous listeners. We have upped the ante, folks. Our mission is now to pull another village, this time Kapkun in Kenya, out of the clutches of extreme poverty. Our method is direct cash donations without strings attached. Rory shares a compelling argument for why cash donations are a game changer, why the traditional aid model often falls short, how direct cash essentially skips the middleman, lower corruption, people start businesses with it, they send their kids to school. We talked about what extreme poverty looks like. He also tackles a critical question. With poverty rampant in the Us, why not focus our efforts domestically? Trust me, you're going to want to hear his enlightening perspective. Tune in to episode 867. I love the insights I got from this. And we've had some amazing and inspiring donors. As well, we've had kids donate because they think that every kid should have the ability to go to school. I found that very inspiring that a child donated their savings of $50. It was really something. So go to givedirectly.com/jordan to donate. Donations are 100 percent tax deductible in the US. For listeners not in the US, here's your chance to support the show. A lot of employers have been matching. So if you have a company that does a company match, we're all about it. Email me if you need help with it jordan@jordanharbinger.com. We want to hit our goal here. Givedirectly.com/jordan.

[00:51:14] If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for our sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. You can email me jordan@jordanharbinger.com and somebody will throw the promo code right into your inbox. Peek lazy, I get it. Whatever we got to do to keep the lights on around here. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show.

[00:51:42] It does keep us going and it makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week.

[00:51:46] All right, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:51:48] All right, Gabe, what's next?

[00:51:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, I'm a freshman in high school and a few months ago I found out that my best friend is going to move to Utah. He's from there, so I'm happy that I'll get to be with his family, but it was crushing to find out. He's been my best friend since I moved and has consistently been a source of joy and happiness in my life. I have a small group of close friends, but with the knowledge that my best friend is moving, I've become worried that I won't have many friends and will be lonely without him. How do I find and connect with new people? How do I figure out who will be my new best friend? And how do I create long-lasting relationships? Signed, Wondering What To Do Without My Number Two.

[00:52:29] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah, a bro breakup.

[00:52:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:52:32] Jordan Harbinger: Very different from the romantic ones we've been talking about, but just as tough sometimes, especially at certain points in your life, like the start of high school. So, first of all. I'm sorry. Hey, man, I'm sorry your friend is moving back to Utah. I can hear how much this guy means to you, and I got to say, I'm very touched by your friendship with him, and the fact that you can be happy for him, even while you're obviously bummed that he's leaving. That says a lot about you. It's a great lens to have on life, and a pretty mature lens to have at that.

[00:52:57] So the first thing I want to say is, yes, this is a loss, but I think what you're going to find is that it's totally survivable, but it's also a great opportunity. Whenever people move away, they open up a space for other awesome things to enter, new relationships, experiences, goals, even some solitude, which could be great. It's never just the loss, it's also the space that the loss creates, which we can fill in, in all kinds of meaningful ways. And you're already onto that because you're asking how to connect with new people. I don't have brilliant advice there other than to stay open to people in unexpected places.

[00:53:32] You know, talk to that kid on the track team you don't usually hang out with, have lunch with somebody new, start a club at school, make time to chat with a teacher after class, whatever it is. It's interesting, I've actually found that when I've lost somebody or something, I'm actually the most open to other people. The vulnerability is powerful, so that's a plus. Honestly, I wouldn't overthink this too much. Just share parts of yourself with other people and see who responds. The people who excite you, who inspire you, who make you laugh, who elevate you and who you do that for in return, those are your people.

[00:54:06] And you don't need to know who will be your new best friend, although that's a damn cute question to ask, man. I mean, don't worry about that. That'll sort itself out. Just get curious about the people around you, invest in them, care about them, and you'll know who takes priority.

[00:54:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, dude, go find yourself a Richard, man, you know? Just don't shag his girlfriend.

[00:54:24] Jordan Harbinger: Good call. Yeah, take a lesson from our friend in question one. How do I find a new best friend? And then torpedo the relationship because I can't keep my wee-wee in my pants.

[00:54:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: But hey, if you're asking about long-lasting relationships because you don't want to go through what you just went through with your friend, I might shift your lens there, too, a little bit. The truth is, your relationships will change. People will move away. And this is life. This is what happens. It all changes. The goal isn't to find people who will never move to another town or go off to college or take a job in another country. It's to form connections that survive those transitions and in many ways benefit from them.

[00:54:59] Jordan Harbinger: Here's where I can give you some perspective as an older guy. Pretty soon, you're going to love it when your friends move away because then you can go visit them. You can have adventures together in other cities. And when you're really tight with somebody and they move away, sometimes the friendship doesn't get harder, it actually just gets bigger.

[00:55:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:14] Jordan Harbinger: There's a lot more space for that stuff as you get older. I love your attitude, man. I'm sorry about your boy moving away, but you can stay close with him, you can go visit, he can visit you, whatever. And in the meantime, you have more room in your life and in your heart for some new friends, which is the hidden gift of this bro breakup. So enjoy that and just reframe this as an exciting time to open yourself back up to new people and new opportunities. You'll be fine, man.

[00:55:36] All right, so on this last one, it's a little different. I got a crazy story from a member of my own team who's been with us for a long time. It's stuff I never knew, never heard, and thought it was pretty incredible.

[00:55:48] Gabe, take it away.

[00:55:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. When I was about 23, I was at the height of my epilepsy seizures. I was on the maximum dose of medication. I was a complete zombie. Some days I would have 10 fits a day. Then I lost my job and was at a real low point. But I felt secure that I was in a loving relationship. Then, one day, she ended it out of the blue and disappeared. As you talked about on the show recently, it was a classic case of ambiguous loss, which I suffered from for years. While all of this was happening, the guy I thought was my best friend also seemed to go cold and disappear, which triggered some abandonment issues I had been wrestling with since I was a kid. A few years later, I found out that he and my girlfriend had been sleeping together behind my back while we were together at the height of my illness. For nearly 10 years, I was completely broken. Really struggled with anything to do with girls. My self-esteem and self-worth were zero. I went from being a social person to struggling to communicate with anyone. During that time, the epilepsy was being controlled but I was left with trauma seizures that resembled epileptic ones but had more to do with the rejection that I was experiencing. My terrible communication skills led to more rejection. I fell into several friend zones with every girl I met. It seemed like an endless cycle. So, I finally decided to end it all, and planned to commit suicide. Ultimately though, I didn't go through with it. I decided instead that I needed to get therapy, and it was the best decision I ever made. The second best thing was accidentally stumbling across your old show. Long story short, that led to me working for Jordan at a time when audio engineering on podcasts wasn't really a thing, which I've been doing for 11 years now.

[00:57:38] Jordan Harbinger: And by the way, just to clarify, I know I mentioned this as a member of the team, this is producer Jase, not to be confused with my previous producer, also named Jason, who left a few years back. This producer/engineer Jase has actually been with us even longer since almost the start of my podcasting career. Is it only 11 years? I think it's even been longer than that. I could be wrong. Jase is the guy responsible for making everything sound so good around here, is an extremely talented person, a freaking gem of a guy. And has one of the most confusing English accents that I've ever heard which adds to the fun we have on team meetings, but really Jase just sort of popped up and made the show way better. In fact, I didn't even want him to edit it at first because he offered to do it for free and I was like, I'll do it, and then, he just kept listening and he's like, "No, no, no, really dude, let me do it," because I was you know doing a crap job.

[00:58:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:58:25] Jordan Harbinger: But this is so interesting because I never, I never knew any of this. This wasn't on the non-existent job application.

[00:58:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, yeah, you wouldn't have volunteered this when you guys started working together. No, generally not. I also adore Jason. I wish I could have read this letter in his dialect, but it's way too hard to do, but it's a great one. It sounds amazing. So he goes on.

[00:58:42] I worked intensively through my rejection issues, and the trauma seizures went away. I'm no longer on medication for epilepsy either, although I have the occasional fit that I can cope with. As cheesy as it sounds, I've also found forgiveness for my ex and my old friend. I can't have been the best person to be around back then, and I don't blame them anymore. Jordan's travel stories also inspired me to travel, so I did a lot of dating all across Europe, and eventually found Edith, my wife, who's the best person I've ever met. One huge takeaway from all of this was not only knowing what I want in a partner, but what I want for myself. Also not settling for life just happening to me, being able to take control. The amount of awesome stuff that I've experienced in the last 10 years was worth every bit of pain that I went through. I'm now 41, and all of this has stayed with me. If I find myself eating poorly, or skipping too many days at the gym, or procrastinating on important work, I always catch myself and steer myself back on track, knowing what's possible if I put in the work. I also understand how important it is to reach out for help when I need it. It's rare that I feel real stress or panic now because of this work that I've done. I'm just so grateful that Jordan and the show have been like a guiding beacon throughout all of this, mentoring me from afar. Love you guys, love the whole team, more than words can express. Signed, An Audio Engineer Named Jase, Who Did a Total About-Face and Found His Place After Being in a Pretty Rough Headspace.

[01:00:09] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man.

[01:00:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jase, what a letter, man, that's awesome. I love this letter. Jordan, that's crazy that you didn't know all this. I had not heard any of this. I've worked with Jase for like three years now, but this was all news to me. What an incredible story.

[01:00:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you know, I had bits and pieces of this, but when it's all laid out, it's always a completely different thing. This is quite a journey. I don't know if I have a ton to add here. We mostly just wanted to share this with you guys, because to me, this is an amazing case study in what happens when you do everything that we've been talking about on this show today. Embrace a breakdown, figure out what it's trying to teach you, put in the work, invest in yourself, have new experiences grow. I mean, he did all of those things, seemingly just knocked it right out of the park. And not everyone's going to find themselves in a crisis as intense as this, obviously, but we all get a little dose of this here and there. And I feel that Jase is a brilliant model for how to take care of yourself and evolve when things are obviously not working.

[01:01:03] The health stuff, you know, that's not on him, but there was a lot of other things that contributed to this. And instead of just blaming everyone else, he went, "Okay, how do I figure this out?" And I love the forgiveness that he had as an element there because he realized it was just imperfect people making mistakes.

[01:01:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:01:18] Jordan Harbinger: And another thing that I love about this story is that he's struggled and suffered for such a long time to the point of wanting to commit suicide, which breaks my heart is so intense, but then he makes this choice, which is, "Nah, this is fixable, I'm going to go to therapy instead." Huge, huge life changing decision. And then, instead of just going through the motions, he puts in the work in a very real way, finds resources, including our old show, which is amazing. Uh, I think we both got really lucky there. He travels, he meets people, he dates, he works through all this old abandonment issues, carves out roles for himself to do the work he wants to do. And look where it got him. He works from home on this very program.

[01:01:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's extraordinary.

[01:01:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:01:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just extraordinary.

[01:01:58] Jordan Harbinger: No, but for real, it is extraordinary. It's also what can happen for anyone who's ready to step up and ask for help and then put in time to get better. It's not really that easy. And I would imagine. A lot of times it's not fun, maybe a really tough climb, but it's totally doable. Then, it all culminates in meeting Edit is how you pronounce that, but whatever Edith.

[01:02:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sorry.

[01:02:17] Jordan Harbinger: It doesn't matter. She's going to hear this and then never really take it liking to you, Gabriel. That's fine. She's an amazing person.

[01:02:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sorry, Edit.

[01:02:23] Jordan Harbinger: I really—

[01:02:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I should've edited myself.

[01:02:25] Jordan Harbinger: No too late now. Well, you can't, it's Jase is going to do the edit. So it's up to him. I will say she's amazing. You know, I feel bad now because early on when he met her, you know when your friend meets a great girl and you go, "Oh man, she's out of your league because you're ribbing your friend." We did that a bunch and he's like, "Yo, are you guys serious about that?" Because we really hit that tender spot.

[01:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Aww.

[01:02:43] Jordan Harbinger: We're like, "No, we're not serious about that. We're just happy for you." And he's like, "Oh man, a lot of people have said that. Are you sure there's nothing to that?" And I was just like, "Oh crap. We're like giving him a complex about this." I was like, "No, it's just something we say in the United States. We basically say like, you know, you don't deserve that, which is not true at all. It's just something you say when your friend meets a great girl." You know what I'm talking about, right, Gabriel?

[01:03:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Yeah. No, I've heard that a hundred times.

[01:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I feel like you always have to say about your friend when he meets a great girl that somehow she doesn't, you know?

[01:03:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: That you don't deserve her.

[01:03:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but you don't deserve her. It's like, that's the thing. It's just a trope. It is mean, though, when you when you really lay it out like that. I'm very happy they found each other. That's what I'm trying to say here.

[01:03:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: The place Jase arrived at where he's weirdly grateful for the pain he went through because it led him to all of this amazing stuff, I think that is also very profound.

[01:03:28] Jordan Harbinger: I think so. It also totally fits in with the forgiveness I mentioned before, right? He forgives his ex, he forgives his old friend, and that stuff often comes in time. He's able to see the part that he played in all that, right, although not his fault. And they sort of put him on the path in the sort of messed up way that they did. So, in a way, how can you not be grateful for the adversity when you're on the other side of that adversity? I can relate to that, having been through the whole show crisis and the reset a few years back. I get it.

[01:03:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, it's kind of like what we were saying to the woman who got her heart broken by that older guy, right? Like, that guy seems to be an a-h*le right now. Like, a selfish guy who pulled the rug out from under her. But in the long run, I think she's going to see that the situation just wasn't right and his ending it as hard as it was was ultimately a good thing and that what they did get to enjoy in the relationship was still meaningful, right? That's a gift. It had to happen that way.

[01:04:20] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. I guess what we're talking about is when you zoom out enough and you're not committed to a narrow meaning of an event, it's all working for you if and it's a crucial if you use these experiences to learn and grow and you put in the work. And sometimes, like in Jase's case here, it seems impossible. It seems too daunting. The hill climb is too high. It's too painful. We don't have the resources We don't have the physical, mental health to make it through whatever it is but then look what can happen if you just make a couple of good choices, one good choice, a couple of tiny adjustments, a handful of baby steps.

[01:04:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:04:53] Jordan Harbinger: They just all stack up and they literally changed the course of your life. So we could talk about your letter for hours here, Jase, but just to say, you're a very special and talented guy. You're a real one. You're an inspiration. We're so glad that you're here and part of the team. And I guess I should thank that dumpster fire of a girl that you dated for bringing you into my life. There's a true betrayal, man. You know, Gabe, we should buy her flowers or some, a bouquet of morning-after pills, something.

[01:05:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Gift certificate for Better Help.

[01:05:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's more like that's a more PC version of what we could do here. Hey, Jase is over in Prague editing this episode going, "Nah, she'd never use that. Next."

[01:05:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure.

[01:05:32] Jordan Harbinger: I can hear you chuckling into your headphones already, Jase. Really honored that somebody would share that, knowing that we know them, right? I feel, Gabe, like we get a lot of letters from folks and often they want to remain anonymous, but they also know maybe they're never going to meet you. Or if I do, you won't remember this. Or if I do, you won't know, which is me. Jase has to, you know, look us in the eye at some points and he still shared all this, which I think is more brave in a way.

[01:05:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree.

[01:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:05:58] Hope y'all enjoyed the show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Kevin Dutton and Ian Bremmer if you haven't done so yet.

[01:06:06] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, as evidenced by the previous letter. The circle of people I know, like, and trust. I want to teach you how to reach out and make connections and become a better — I hate the word networker — a better partner, a better friend. Six-Minute Networking is the course. It's free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you're thirsty, folks.

[01:06:29] Also, if you haven't signed up yet, our recently relaunched newsletter for the show, Wee Bit Wiser. Takes bites from older episodes, summarizes them, gives you something to think about from the 800-plus episode catalog and apply to your life, jordanharbinger.com/news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com/deals. AI chatbot on the website if you're too lazy to run a regular ol Google search. And also it says funny stuff. Uh, so far so good. We're really improving on that. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:07:10] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:07:41] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Bill Browder, who uncovered a massive fraud inside the Russian government and took on one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin.

[01:07:52] Bill Browder: Making 10 times your money is the financial equivalent of smoking crack cocaine. And once you do it once, you just want to repeat it over and over and over and over again. It was completely, absolutely Wild West chaos, gold rush type of situation. The companies were run by these oligarchs and these oligarchs said, well, we might as well just cheat everybody on everything.

[01:08:13] And so while I was sitting there down 90 percent, they were going to steal my last 10 cents on the dollar. I took a decision which nobody had ever taken before, which was to take on one of the oligarchs. I did. I fought back, big time. And I ended up with 15 bodyguards. There was a lead car, a lag car, a side car, three armed guys in my car. When we got close to the home, they would go and scout the rooftops for snipers. They look for bombs under the cars and secure the stairwells and then escort me into the apartment. And then, I had two guys with automatic weapons sitting in my living room. It was very, very intense, very scary.

[01:08:51] And after that, I hired a young lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky to help me investigate it. Sergei and I exposed the crime. The same people who Sergei testified against arrested him and then tortured him to try to get him to withdraw his testimony. And they thought, you know, here's a guy, he buys a Starbucks in the morning, he wears a blue suit and a white shirt and a red tie, and he works in the tax practice of an American law firm, he'll buckle in a week. And it turns out that they got him wrong completely. He's the most principled guy in the world. He was really a man of steel.

[01:09:23] On the morning of November 17th at 7:45 a.m., I got the call from Sergei's lawyer, and it was the most horrifying, life-changing, soul-destroying news that I could have ever gotten.

[01:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: For more on how Bill Browder continues to fight for change while being a thorn in the side of Vladimir Putin, check out episode 3, which is one of the most popular episodes of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:09:48] This episode is also sponsored by the $100 MBA podcast run by my homie Omar Zenhom. Ready to turn your entrepreneurial dreams into reality? Maybe you've already dipped your toes into starting a small business or perhaps you have a business idea but you don't know where to begin. No matter where you stand on your entrepreneurial journey, the $100 MBA show offers guidance that can propel you forward. The charismatic host is, again, my buddy Omar Z, a rebel who tossed aside his MBA to sail on the entrepreneurial sea. He's also been a teacher so he's really good at explaining things, and he's been successful so far. I often joke that I'm eagerly waiting for my invitation to his yacht once he strikes gold selling his software company. So he's really doing the entrepreneur thing. He's not just like talking about it on a podcast and pretending to know a lot about it. He's doing it right now and doing it really well at a high level. On $100 MBA, he bestows practical, real-world advice on kickstarting, developing, scaling your own venture into digestible lessons, which, by the way, they have thousands of episodes. They release three new episodes a week. So there's tons of content for you to go through. Subscribe to the $100 MBA show on your favorite podcast app. That's the $100 MBA show on your podcast app or 100mba.net.