869: Living in Strife Since Ending a Life | Feedback Friday

869: Living in Strife Since Ending a Life | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: And special thanks to Airbnb for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe you've stayed at an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Yeah, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb." It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. Find out how much your place is worth at airbnb.com/host.

[00:00:21] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the capers and the hollandaise on this eggs benedict of life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. So, like, salty? Is that what you're getting at?

[00:00:36] Jordan Harbinger: Smooth and salty. Salty AF, bro. Now, you got to live up to that nickname today. No dulcet tones Gabe today. I need petty, aggro Gabe only, please.

[00:00:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm bringing the salt. Okay. I will do my best.

[00:00:48] Jordan Harbinger: On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of incredible people like former jihadis, drug traffickers, astronauts, four-star generals, rocket scientists.

[00:01:11] This week, we had a Skeptical Sunday episode on astrology, debunking astrology. A lot of you reacting to that one. Not a big surprise there. Really good episode if I do say so myself. We also had Rory Stewart, really incredible guy. This guy walked across Afghanistan and Iran alone, essentially with a dog. And well, he didn't die, which I thought, you know, would probably happen. And we also announced our fundraiser in that for GiveDirectly, where we are going to help lift an entire village in Kenya out of poverty with your help. So definitely check out that episode. Really sharp, dude. I mean, that's an understatement. We also had my friend Remi Adeleke. He is in Transformers. He's a former Navy SEAL, really incredible story, incredible guy. Lots of good stuff this week.

[00:01:52] On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, mercilessly roast Gabe for his appearance, and/or seemingly endless selection of off-gray spiritual gangster tank tops.

[00:02:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:06] Jordan Harbinger: There's not a single non-V-neck in that house, is there?

[00:02:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, that's so true. I do prefer a V-neck, but I have a few crew necks and I can wear them if you'd like.

[00:02:15] Jordan Harbinger: You know, this reminds me, I took a class called blood feuds in law school and it was about Viking blood feuds.

[00:02:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:02:21] Jordan Harbinger: Really cool class. Just one of the coolest classes, of course, that you could take in law school. And we learned all about Viking law and how they settled disputes back in the day. And one of the ways in which you were allowed to get a divorce is, I might butcher this a little bit, but it's If a man wears a shirt with the neck collar so low that his nipples are exposed, a woman can divorce him. So there was a time in one of these sagas or whatever, where the wife sews her husband a shirt and it's deliberately super low cut so that his nipple is exposed and then she divorces him. And it's like, why would that be a thing? And the prevailing theory was you don't want to date a guy or be married to a guy who's wearing V-necks that are so deep that his nipples are exposed. So just word to the wise.

[00:03:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: What are you trying to say? That you want to break up as co-hosts?

[00:03:09] Jordan Harbinger: No, this is completely unrelated, Gabe.

[00:03:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just for the record, because I don't know what people are thinking just listening to this, but my V necks don't go that far down.

[00:03:17] Jordan Harbinger: No, but you are playing with fire. You are playing with fire.

[00:03:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like normal V necks, dude.

[00:03:22] Jordan Harbinger: Normal? If I wore that, my belly button would be dangling out through the neck hole. Come on.

[00:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like conventional V-neck, dude. You're making it sound like I'm one of those guys. You remember like in the early 2000s, men would wear those V-necks that went like all the way down to their sternum.

[00:03:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:03:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Kind of like the belly button and back up.

[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah.

[00:03:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is not one of those V-necks. This is a normal, normal V neck, but—

[00:03:41] Jordan Harbinger: Fair. All right, whatever. I don't know if I believe that.

[00:03:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't like the direction we're heading. It's making me very uncomfortable.

[00:03:47] Jordan Harbinger: You don't like the direction this is going? No, that's fair. All right, before we jump in, and now that we've gotten that V-neck thing out of the way, we have relaunched our newsletter for the show. It's been on hiatus, if you could even call it that, for half a decade or more. It's called Wee Bit Wiser and it's a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you delivered to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 800-plus episodes and apply it to your life. We dig into the back catalog, reanalyze the stuff. It's really interesting so far, a lot of good feedback. jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can sign up. Let me know if there's any issues with that because it is new. I want to make sure the squeeze works and you're getting delivery and it's not in your spam folder, all that stuff.

[00:04:27] A few weeks ago, in the Bradley Sherman episode about demographic collapse, I said something about legal versus illegal immigration along the lines of a lot of white people don't like illegal immigration because it's brown people immigrating. Now, while that's true for some people who are racist, not everybody who doesn't like illegal immigration holds that opinion because they are racist. Of course, for me and many others, legal immigration is about showing respect to the system that you want to join. I also understand that desperation also makes good people do things they otherwise would not. So, I just didn't want to paint with too broad a brush. I did get some emails about that, and I'm very thankful for people who engage with the content like that. It's a lot better to get an email from somebody who says, "Hey, I think you misspoke," or, "Hey, do you really think this way," or, "Hey, there's a different reason for this," versus just having somebody explode in a review or in my inbox in a completely unhinged way. I got those two, of course, as I always do, but I appreciate everybody who engaged on that and the opportunity to, one, clarify, and two, clarify my own thinking. Always a great benefit here of the show and the show's fans, which is you. So thanks to everybody who wrote in with compliments and/or actual real constructive criticism that wasn't totally unhinged.

[00:05:42] By the way, if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this show, they are getting rid of that app. August 29th, it will no longer be useful. So switch to a different app if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this podcast. If you're on Android, I suggest Podcast Addict. It might not be as pretty, but it works really well. If you're on iOS, Apple, you should use Overcast, in my humble opinion, or Apple Podcasts, but definitely no longer Stitcher. It will not update anymore in the next couple of months. So if you're using the Stitcher app, now's a good time to switch to a new podcast app. And if you have any problems with this, you're kind of Boomer in terms of your tech, you don't know what to do, you can always email me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will try to point you in the right direction, but the Stitcher app will no longer work for this show.

[00:06:26] All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:06:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About two months ago, my boyfriend and I were going to spend a night together at my home. When he arrived, he realized he forgot his laptop for school and went back home to pick it up. He went totally dark for the rest of the night and never came back. The next afternoon, he called me and explained what happened. When he got home, he heard some weird noises from his mother's room. He peeked through the door and saw her sitting on the ground, bleeding. He barged in to find a shirtless man with a belt towering over her. This man was his mother's date, and turned out to be an abuser. My boyfriend jumped the man and knocked him unconscious. He broke four fingers on one hand, and the man was put into a coma because of the severe head trauma my boyfriend inflicted on him. Now, my boyfriend has never been a violent person. He never even raised his voice to me, and I've never seen him take any violent action outside of Muay Thai, which he's been doing for four years. He's not a giant, muscular, intimidating guy. Overall, he's a pretty chill dude. The next few days were hell. The abuser's family got involved, and this whole thing turned into a legal case. I went to see him the following weekend, and he seemed so apathetic. He hadn't gone to university or done any sports that week, and I felt he barely noticed I was there. The following week, the abuser died due to the traumas.

[00:07:50] Jordan Harbinger: So, man, this got very real. So this otherwise nice, normal guy inadvertently killed the guy trying to protect his mom.

[00:07:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:07:59] Jordan Harbinger: And I feel really bad for this dude. And I know I should feel bad for the dead guy, but I don't. Because he was an abuser, and I kind of feel like this guy had it coming.

[00:08:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Jordan Harbinger: But, you know, whatever. I'm sure we'll get to that. Carry on.

[00:08:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, he barely leaves his home, doesn't talk to most of his friends, and doesn't feel like the same person. He started blocking people who ask too many details or call him a murderer. He's calmly told me that he understands these people, and that, quote, "most people won't feel comfortable next to a killer," unquote. But he also told me he doesn't regret doing it, and that that man probably deserved worse.

[00:08:35] Jordan Harbinger: Bingo.

[00:08:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's been two months now. We don't talk about the event anymore. He's gone on academic leave. He's a bit more accessible now and has been working out a lot at home as his fight academy asked him not to come back until everything was sorted out. He doesn't want to talk about the legal case but said he's not worried about it anymore as it was self-defense and we have a good lawyer, in his words. His friends, too, say hanging out with him is weird, like they felt he wasn't there. I want to help him, but this person I was once so close to now feels like a stranger to me to the point where I get a bit scared around him. I tried everything to make him better, but I feel like I've exhausted my options. And at this point, I'm not sure he even really appreciates my company anymore. What should I do? Should I keep being treated like a nobody while helping him recover from this? Or should I just accept that he's been permanently changed by this event? Signed, Stuck in a Thriller with this Unnatural Born Killer.

[00:09:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, what an insane story.

[00:09:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Phew.

[00:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, your boyfriend, he's been through something truly extraordinary. I mean, this is—

[00:09:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: It's like something from a movie. It's one of those insane life-defining events that just completely changed the way you view the world and the way that you view yourself. And part of me is really sorry that he went back home that night to get his laptop, but of course, the other part of me is so glad that he did so he could save his mother from this monster. It sounds like, Gabe, the guy was whipping mom with the belt.

[00:10:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds like it. Unclear if that was like part of the ritual or if he was just like a monster, it was just like beating her. I don't know, I'm a little confused about that, actually.

[00:10:11] Jordan Harbinger: Because he's his shirt was off, which is weird, and then he has the belt.

[00:10:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: So it's like, maybe they were hooking up but then he's like, beating her up. I'm so confused by that. I thought that letter was going somewhere else. I thought, how do I unsee this?

[00:10:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Either way, it sounds like it crossed a line.

[00:10:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I doubt he walked in there and was like, I'm going to kill this guy for no reason. Like, he probably saw more than that and just we're not getting all the details. I'm sure the mother's story corroborated that or he'd be super worried about going to jail slash already be there.

[00:10:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:10:37] Jordan Harbinger: So the fallout from that evening is obviously huge and even if he's not being prosecuted criminally which I hope he isn't if it really was self-defense. It's unclear from your letter if he is or if the guy's family getting involved means it's a civil case. It sounds like maybe this isn't even in the United States. So I have no legal experience here to offer either way. But, he has to live with this very heavy burden of having killed someone, even if it was accidental and for what sounds like a damn good reason. And that is, well, I don't know if I have the words for the psychological toll of that. I can't even imagine how I would be coping with something like this. I'd like to think I'd be strong and feel secure that I did the right thing, but if I'm being honest, the whole experience would probably rock me as well.

[00:11:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, sure.

[00:11:25] Jordan Harbinger: Your boyfriend's not a violent guy, like you said, quite the opposite. Although it sounds like the Muay Thai, the kickboxing made him really powerful. And taking someone's life like this, it might just eat away at a normal, gentle person. And I'm sorry that he's going through that, really. That's what it comes down to, and that it's affected you and your relationship too. It's very sad and your feelings make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I don't know how much you can do to change things in the short term. I can hear how badly you want to help your boyfriend. how painful it is to feel like he's a stranger or estranged from you and it speaks to how much you care for him, how badly he probably needs your support. But right now, I think you need to listen to what your boyfriend is communicating to you and accept him for where he is right now, even if that is massively hurtful and disappointing to you.

[00:12:15] Now, I'm not saying you should leave him or stop talking, you know, don't block him on social media or whatever that kind of stuff is. We don't know what's going through your boyfriend's head. It sounds like you don't either, and that's also making all of this a little more muddy and difficult. And I wish, of course, that he could be a little more open with you about what he's feeling and what he wants from you right now. But he might not be that guy, and he might not even know.

[00:12:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: And part of this whole crisis might be discovering that he's not that guy, which is another interesting layer to all this.

[00:12:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. This might be new information she didn't know, and maybe he was always kind of guarded or shut down. She just didn't know how much that was the case—

[00:12:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:51] Jordan Harbinger: —until there was this huge experience that he couldn't let her in on. But look, for all we know, he might appreciate that you're sticking around and continuing to try to support him, and he just can't express that very well either. So what I am saying is, your task right now is to make peace with the fact that your boyfriend is working his way through an objective trauma, and that his method and timeline, it's not necessarily going to align with yours. And that what he's going through right now says a lot more about him than it does about you. It's not like you're not doing enough or whatever.

[00:13:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, like he said, even though he thinks the guy deserved it, he also thinks of himself as a killer. I mean, just imagine what that would do to a person, especially somebody who's not violent.

[00:13:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I kind of disagree with it. A killer to me is somebody who breaks into somebody else's house and kills them.

[00:13:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:13:39] Jordan Harbinger: Not somebody who goes in and finds his mom getting beaten by some guy and then kicks the guy and he happens to die.

[00:13:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that tells you how he's thinking about this evening.

[00:13:47] Jordan Harbinger: It does. Yeah, the label, of course, is going to come with a lot of pain.

[00:13:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:13:51] Jordan Harbinger: He is going through it right now. And also people's ability to handle stuff like this. It often comes with age. I vaguely remember reading that younger veterans suffer from PTSD at far higher rates than older ones. And if I recall correctly—

[00:14:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow.

[00:14:07] Jordan Harbinger: —it's because they have some preexisting vulnerability. Because I think the idea is when they're younger, you generally have fewer inner resources to cope with difficult life events. Your identity really as a human is still kind of being formed, right? Whereas right now, if I kill someone, I'm not like, "I'm that person. I have 43 years of not being that person." If you're 23, you're like, "I just became an adult and this is this thing that I did and this is the biggest thing I've done as an adult and oh my God, this is who I am as an adult. This is me as a person."

[00:14:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:14:36] Jordan Harbinger: So maybe that explains some of his response.

[00:14:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be, and I think he's even younger than that because she said he's in university. So this guy could be 19, he could be 20 years old. Yeah, it's a defining event.

[00:14:47] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:14:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, I don't know how much you guys have explicitly talked about what he needs from you right now, where you guys stand. I'm getting the sense that you haven't maybe done that because you're kind of in the dark here, and you're trying to guess how he really feels. So, it might be a good idea to approach this more directly with him. It has been two months, you guys are still talking. When the moment feels right, I think it's perfectly okay to say, "Listen, you know I love you. My heart goes out to you right now. I'm so sorry that you're going through this. And look, I'm honestly happy to make it all about you right now, but I just have to say all of this has left me pretty confused about how I can be most helpful to you and what you want from me, whether you want me in your life. You know, none of this is your fault, but I feel like you're a bit of a stranger these days. That makes me a little scared sometimes. And it would mean a lot to me if you could tell me where you are right now and what you want so I can know how to show up for you, you know? So do you want me close? Do you want me around? Do you want a little space? Like what do you feel you need from me right now? Just talk to me about this." My hope is that your boyfriend can take you up on that invitation to talk rather than just shutting down. And then, hopefully, based on what he says, you can take that data and make a decision that feels fair to both of you.

[00:15:55] Jordan Harbinger: And if he says, "Hey, honestly, I just think I need some time alone."

[00:15:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then, I would take him at his word.

[00:16:01] Jordan Harbinger: Even if he actually needs her support right now and doesn't realize it, you know, he might push her away and be like, "Damn, that was my only place I was getting support." I don't know. This is tough.

[00:16:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: This might be a dance between respecting his wishes and gently pushing to give him what she feels he needs but can't really ask for.

[00:16:15] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: But ultimately, yes, if he says, "Look, I cannot be close right now, and I need some space to work through this in my own way, I think she does need to accept that.

[00:16:23] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know, Gabe. Maybe she just needs to sit him down and burst out crying about how she doesn't even know him anymore. Just make it all about her.

[00:16:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: There you go. Perfect. I don't see how that could backfire.

[00:16:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. At a certain point, she just needs to accept her boyfriend for wherever he is.

[00:16:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so, yes.

[00:16:38] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, and that could be really hard because deep down, she's like, "You killed a guy. You need someone like me looking out for you, I still love you." And he's like, "Nah, I'm just going to like zone out."

[00:16:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, it's like we talk about a lot. Acceptance often feels like failing. It feels like giving up. And that's painful. And in her case, it might mean giving up the idea that she can save him, or that she occupies a certain position in his life, or that their love is more powerful than this terrible thing that he just went through, or that he's going to come back and be the guy he was before all of this, which it might not be at this moment in time any way possible. So, she keeps trying, and pushing, and showing up, because the pain of trying feels easier than the pain of accepting him where he is and letting him go.

[00:17:23] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so she's confronting the limit of her power in an extreme situation, and that's—

[00:17:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:17:28] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it's brutal for anybody to go through that and do that, to have that level of introspection.

[00:17:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: So do you keep being treated like a nobody, as you put it, while you help your boyfriend recover? I would say if you feel like a nobody, that's something I would pay attention to and I know things are kind of all about him right now, but there are two of you in this relationship, so either he acknowledges how his response to all of this is affecting you, or if he can't really do that right now or he doesn't want to change to accommodate you, then you get to decide whether you want to stay in a situation that leaves you feeling like a nobody.

[00:18:01] Jordan Harbinger: And the answer to that might very well be, "No, I do not."

[00:18:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: It might be, and who knows, maybe they're meant to part ways here for reasons that are being laid bare by this event, or maybe they find their way back to each other in a few months or in a year or whatever when he's worked through some of this some more.

[00:18:17] Jordan Harbinger: With a therapist, I would hope, I just want to get that in there, or—

[00:18:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Same.

[00:18:20] Jordan Harbinger: —somebody else who's gone through this experience and is willing to open up about it and share their process. There might be a lot of value if he talks to somebody who killed somebody by accident in self-defense.

[00:18:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:18:30] Jordan Harbinger: And they're like, "Hey, it gets better. My life isn't ruined because of this. And the idea that you're a killer is not true." I mean, that hearing that from a credible source might do something for him. I just, I don't think he's going to ultimately process all of this that well without some help, especially if he's young. Again, it's his work to do. She can't do that for him, but it might be something else she can encourage him to do.

[00:18:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely agree. And should you just accept that he's been permanently changed by this event? Uh, well, you don't know if he's been permanently changed. My guess is that this tragedy will probably stick with him. It'll definitely shape who he is, but he has a lot of control in the long term over the meaning that he makes out of this event, but that takes time. So I would encourage you to just accept that your boyfriend is different right now. You don't know what the future him will look like, and that's not really under your control, not entirely your business. Your business is deciding what kind of relationship you're willing to be in with him at this very confusing, difficult point in time now.

[00:19:30] Jordan Harbinger: I agree with that. I think it's just one more thing she has to admit she's powerless over.

[00:19:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:19:35] Jordan Harbinger: Which is knowing how he is going to turn out as a result of this.

[00:19:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is so painful—

[00:19:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:19:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: —and so maddening.

[00:19:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. In the meantime, I hope you and your boyfriend find a way to help each other understand how you're both dealing with this so you can make a decision together. And we're sending you a big hug, wishing your boyfriend the best with this legal case, of course. That's the last thing he needs to deal with right now is wondering if he's going to go to jail.

[00:19:57] Personally, the dude saved his mom, he took out an abuser, and while I'm all like, let's have empathy for everybody, if somebody's beating your mom up with a belt, like, put them underground. Look, I've got to believe in a world where he doesn't get punished for doing that. But what a world this is, where something like that can happen to a kind and normal person. But thankfully, he was there. Who knows what would have happened to his mother? And then, does he blame himself for not going back to get his laptop? Because if I had been home, she wouldn't have, you know, this could have been so much worse than—

[00:20:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:20:28] Jordan Harbinger: —an abuser. getting taken out of the ecosystem. I'm trying to put this politely without being gross, but folks, God forbid you ever have to act in self-defense. But if you do, then, yes, they hit you first and you never hit them after they went onto the ground. Not legal advice. I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. But I just happen to notice that people who get hit first and don't hit somebody after they are on the ground tend to fare better in court. So there's that.

[00:20:56] You know who won't try to mask his crass capitalistic impulses after a story like that? All right, yeah, we'll be right back.

[00:21:05] This episode is sponsored in part by Grammarly. Ever find yourself with a writer's block? Even those who might be, ahem, rather good at this whole writing thing, sometimes we need a helping hand. Enter Grammarly Go with its new AI-powered wizardry, because of course. Recently, we were on a mission to rent the house across the street from my parents, and lo and behold, there were heaps of interested parties. To edge ahead of the competition, we chose to include a personalized letter to the landlord, and with the aid of Grammarly Go, we were able to craft a letter that truly set us apart from a sea of other applicants. And guess what? Victory was ours. We secured the rental. Stumped on a catchy headline for your blog post or you need help with a job application cover letter? Take Grammarly Go for a spin. Let this AI gem be your faithful companion, enabling you to slay the dragons of written communication like never before. But for real, let AI do the heavy lifting, y'all. Give Grammarly Go a try.

[00:21:55] Jen Harbinger: You'll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly Go. Go to grammarly.com/go to download and learn more about Grammarly Go. That's G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y.com/go.

[00:22:08] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. In the hustle and bustle of life, we get lost often in meeting the demands of others. Most of us, in fact, myself included, often just never pause to think about our own needs. If you're always giving, it can lead to burnout. Don't I know firsthand, man, no bueno for the mental health. Therapy can empower you to continue supporting others while ensuring you don't lose sight of your own well being or your therapist could tell you that you're supporting others who don't deserve to be supported, but that's a different conversation. Better Help is a great first step. Better Help is entirely online, which is great. Some days, maybe you don't feel like driving, going to therapy, parking. Maybe you got to do this on a break at work, maybe you got to do it in the garage, in your car. What's great with Better Help is their network of thousands of licensed professional therapists. You answer some questions, they match you with a therapist that suits your needs. I've mentioned in the past, Jen wanted a therapist who was a mother and that had first-hand experience to understand what she was going through. She got matched in something like 20 minutes. And hey, if it doesn't work out, switch therapists at any point. No additional cost. Try doing that with your actual therapist. It's going to take you months to find somebody new. With Better Help, it literally takes minutes.

[00:23:15] Jen Harbinger: Find more balance with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's Better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:23:24] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Or ask the AI chatbot on the website for any promo code anywhere on the show. Please consider supporting those who support us.

[00:23:42] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:23:46] Okay, what's next?

[00:23:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, a while back I started dating somebody who wanted a kid. I don't want kids, so we were just enjoying each other's company. She planned to pay for a sperm donor in the near future, at which point our relationship would end. And we would move forward as friends. She also told me that if she ever got pregnant, she would keep the child, but wouldn't require anything from me. Because of the bad relationship she had with her father, she believes that if a woman can have an abortion, a man should be able to opt-out and not be forced to be a father. Still, I was excited to play an uncle role to her child someday. Unfortunately, birth control failed, and now she's pregnant. I'm positive that it wasn't intentional. She maintains the opinion that I have a choice about being involved. She wants me to be there and figure it out later, but I can't shake the feeling that it'll ruin the child someday. But then, my heart breaks when I think about not seeing her anymore. My girlfriend proposed one other arrangement, which is, if my parents respected our decision, they could have a relationship with the child. But then, I worry that the child will wonder where the father is. My mom is not happy with the decision and says I need to be there to take responsibility for the child, despite my girlfriend's wishes. Do I maintain an uncle relationship with this kid, knowing the child will inevitably realize who I am, and potentially feel abandoned and wonder why we never told them? Or do I cut ties when the child is born and let my girlfriend tell the story that she used a sperm donor? And is it possible to have legal documents created that would allow us to treat this as a sperm donation? Signed, Looking for an Exception After this Ill-Fated Conception.

[00:25:29] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, yeah, this is messy. I don't know if there's an easy answer to this question, frankly. This is one of those situations that are just kind of inherently problematic and there's no way around it. I mean, either you stick around and remain a father to a child that you don't, or I should say didn't want, or you abandon a child that you helped create, or you play uncle to this kid and create a huge secret, which is, I'm stressed out just even thinking about that. You're going to pay a price in any of these scenarios. And the question is, which things are you willing to give up? In what ways are you willing to pay the price? The reality is, the best answer here, for everyone except you, is to come around to the idea of being a father. And I'm putting a little asterisk next to that because I got something to say about that later.

[00:26:19] But I know this is not what you wanted. I respect that. Here's where the asterisk comes in. I'm going to take my one shot. And say that becoming a father is the absolute best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life, bar none. When I think about how much I love my kids, my heart opens up, it melts. I'm a totally different person in all ways that I think are good. Although the vulnerability is a little scary, I'll give you that. So while you seem to have made your decision, I implore you to just think about it some more. Don't convince yourself if you don't want to, right? But if you can stand the thought, just maybe see if you would reconsider. I'm going to get off my soapbox and straight onto another soapbox.

[00:27:00] Gabe, I got to say, I am very frustrated with her for saying she would keep a child if she ever got pregnant with him, which is exactly what happened, knowing that he didn't want children. I know he says it's unintentional, but I'm also like, you know, hand on chin emoji over here with that one.

[00:27:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, especially because she had a bad relationship with her father, right? I mean, she's taking this stance that she believes is kind of evolved, which is, well, if a woman can terminate a pregnancy, a man should be able to leave. Fair is fair. But then it's like, isn't having a child with a guy who explicitly said he doesn't want children also setting up that kid to have a complicated relationship with their father? So, she's helping create a situation that is, I don't know, similarly if not equally problematic. Just because she really wanted to have a baby.

[00:27:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're right. Or because she doesn't believe in abortion, which, you know, totally her choice but, well, her and his choice, theoretically, or at least mostly her choice, whatever, I don't want to go down that road. But I'm a little worked up, mostly on the baby's behalf.

[00:28:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:28:02] Jordan Harbinger: Because the baby has zero say in any of this.

[00:28:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:28:05] Jordan Harbinger: And now that kid's going to have to inherit a conflicted father, well, maybe, and a potentially kind of weird story. So I think you need to decide one way or the other if you're going to be involved in this child's life. And I'm not sure that pretending you're an uncle is the way to go. Either you guys need to separate, and you need to not be involved at all, and make a clean break, keep things neat, let your girlfriend pretend it was a sperm donor, which, of course, would deprive your child of a father, and probably eat away at you for the rest of your life. And I'm not trying to guilt trip you into doing what I suggested. I'm just saying what I think might happen. Or you need to stay involved in your child's life, and maybe you're not married or parenting full time, you're co-parenting in some way, but you're around. The child knows who their father is, and yes, it's unconventional. But your present, the kid doesn't feel unwanted, man. I just think that's the correct thing to do. And it sucks because it's like not what you wanted, but we got to think about the kid here.

[00:29:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:29:03] Jordan Harbinger: And not like the fact that Jordan would love to go to Spain. Because I'm with you, man. Like trust me, I'm ashamed to admit this, but I shouldn't be. There's not a week that goes by where I'm not like, "Oh man, if I hadn't had kids, I'd be able to do this other thing," but then I love my kids and I don't regret it. So it's just a really tough choice.

[00:29:22] I wonder how old this guy is, Gabriel. Because if you're in your 20s or early 30s, man, you just saw all your fun travel plans and living abroad kind of go down the drain.

[00:29:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:29:31] Jordan Harbinger: Not necessarily. It can be done, but this is a torpedo in the hall of all your life plans at any age. The uncle option seems very risky as well. We talked about this on the show a few months back. These secrets, they got a way of coming to light eventually. First of all, DNA testing aside, who knows what everyone might do at some point, kids often sense that the guy who always hangs around and looks a lot like them is maybe their dad. My friend's going through this right now. He looks exactly like his uncle, who happened to live with them while he was born and before that.

[00:30:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:30:04] Jordan Harbinger: He's asked his parents and they never go, "What are you talking about? That's ridiculous." They just explode in rage and refuse to talk about the situation.

[00:30:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:30:12] Jordan Harbinger: So he's like, "Yeah, my uncle's my dad," and also he's got a cousin who really looks a hell of a lot like somebody who would be his sister. I mean, it's basically a female version of him.

[00:30:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:30:23] Jordan Harbinger: Now granted, if it's his cousin, that's totally possible, but it's also very possible that she is his sister. Yeah, it's been a whole messy thing, and now he doesn't talk to his parents, and it's like just one of many things that went wrong. So this gets messy, and it gets messy in a whole other way that is avoidable.

[00:30:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, then you're stacking lies on lies at that point.

[00:30:42] Jordan Harbinger: And you're creating confusing relationships. I think that's going to take a toll on you and the child. You're looking at this kid that you can't acknowledge for years. And then what if you change your mind as you get older and you're like, "Hey, we should tell Timmy that I'm his dad." And she's like, "No, he's going to hate me." And it's like, "Well, okay, great. How do we undo that knot?"

[00:30:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:31:00] Jordan Harbinger: It's going to take a toll on the kid feeling close to this uncle, not knowing that the dad they probably wish for every night before they go to sleep and cry about is living—

[00:31:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right there.

[00:31:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And is already in your life. You just can't acknowledge it. I mean, that's so screwed up somehow.

[00:31:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then when it all does come out eventually, which it probably will, then it's like, "Well, why did you lie? Why did you hide this from me? Do you really love me?" I mean, it's so much more painful.

[00:31:23] Jordan Harbinger: It is. And I just don't see that going well at all. As for whether it's possible to have legal documents created that would make this a sperm donation. And by the way, secret's going to come out, right? Because those are going to end up somewhere while they're cleaning the basement. We're not experts in this field by any means, but we did some homework. It turns out that these sperm donor contracts, they're very important. And they're also surprisingly complex. California makes it a little easier. I don't know where this guy is because we have so many same-sex couples that it's often like, "Okay, this is my brother's baby with the sperm, but it's our kid because we're two lesbians or whatever." It's way easier here, but other states, not so much.

[00:32:02] Basically, if you guys drew up paperwork that classifies you as a sperm donor, you'd also be establishing other crucial things. Clarifying the legal rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved, creating a basis for legal parentage. Providing evidence of the party's intent in the event of a legal dispute. Stuff like that. These agreements, they define child support, visitation rights, how future contact between you and the child will be handled. All of which can and probably will get very messy down the line if you and/or your girlfriend ever change your minds about what you want this relationship or arrangement to look like. Like if she ever wants to move to another state or she changes her mind, and she's like, "Actually, I could use some child support," or you're like, "Actually, I kind of like this. This is great maybe I should spend more time with this child even if I'm lying about being an uncle," or, "You know what? Let's do the dad thing." And she's like great, "I want 20 years of back child support now," and you're like, "Whoa, oh crap. I can't do that." "Cool, I'm going to hold this against you." "You don't know how things are going to change and progress in the next decade or two. And that's dangerous in my opinion.

[00:33:07] Now, what we couldn't figure out from our research is whether you can draw up one of these contracts after conception at that point, this might just be an unplanned pregnancy, which makes you a parent, not a sperm donor, but we can't be sure if any lawyers listening right now know the answer to that. It's very specific and maybe easier than we thought. Please write us. We can pass that information along to our friend here. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's state-dependent, like literally everything that has to do with stuff like this. So your best bet is to contact an attorney in your state, a family lawyer, or somebody who specializes in assisted reproduction law and do that yesterday because I don't know how far along your girlfriend is, but things might change dramatically after the actual birth of the child, especially because these laws, they always change state to state. We're going to link to a few good websites we found in the show notes. Those might help. But again, If you find a way to be classified as a donor, be aware that you are probably also narrowly defining your rights, which might suit you just fine for now, but be prepared for that.

[00:34:13] This is incredibly tricky stuff. I'm actually sorry this happened. I'm not going to lie, I'm a little frustrated. I find this whole situation very avoidable and sad. But here we are. Time to adapt, man. Big boy pants. Big everybody pants. And look, maybe you'll learn to be a great dad, and you'll have a blast being in the kid's life. I personally sincerely hope that's the case, because that's the best outcome for everybody, is if you enjoy it, and the kid loves having you as his dad, and there's not all this drama after he's born. And who knows? Maybe you even get married to this woman, and it's a happily ever after situation, but regardless of how you feel, I'm afraid you really do owe it to the child to be as present and frankly as honest as you possibly can. So good luck.

[00:34:55] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines, that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nude photos, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're trying to decide whether to flee your partner's homeland in the event that a war breaks out, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:35:20] And, by the way, we've relaunched the newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser, a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week. All the great takeaways, re-analysis of episodes that you may have missed or haven't heard for a long, long time. And if you want to stay connected to our library of past guests and ideas, come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news.

[00:35:41] Okay. Next up.

[00:35:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife takes a prescription sleep medication. When it starts to take effect, there are about 10 minutes before she falls asleep where she gets really talkative and has no filter. She has zero memory of what she says, but will agree that it's true if asked about it later. Good news is, she's apparently still in love with me after 25 years and has never said anything hurtful. Frequently, though, she'll talk about sex. Let's just say, kind and gentle isn't how she wants me to act. These requests are not completely out of character for her, but dialed up to 10. If I try to talk to her about it, I can tell she's initially eager, but then she gets nervous to the point where it affects her mood before anything can happen. I'm usually the one less comfortable talking about sex, so this is not what I'm used to. How can I discuss what I should or shouldn't do while making her feel more at ease talking about it? Signed, Getting Blocked When My Wife Balks At this Edgy Pillow Talk.

[00:36:42] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, this reminds me of that song from the '80s by The Romantics, you know? I hear the secrets that you keep.

[00:36:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm, I don't know this song.

[00:36:50] Jordan Harbinger: When you're talking in your sleep. It's a very, very '80s track. 1983, man.

[00:36:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:36:56] Jordan Harbinger: The album is called In Heat. So gross.

[00:36:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great.

[00:36:59] Jordan Harbinger: By The Romantics. But yeah, man, wow, interesting. So, when your wife is disinhibited by the medication when she's all drugged up, she's honest about what she wants in bed, but when you talk to her when she's not impaired, she gets embarrassed, she shuts down, which, I mean, look, this totally makes sense. In a way, it's very sweet. She's still in love with you after 25 years. She still wants you, that's awesome. But I can see how this puts you at a tough spot, right? I mean, she probably grew up not raised to talk about this kind of stuff at all or even think about it. And also, kudos to you for finding a freak in the sheets. I mean, that sounds fun or potentially fun. So, this, again, is interesting.

[00:37:36] My impulse is to say, you guys need to talk openly about this, work through her conflict around the type of sex she wants to have, and just start, just go for it, start exploring. But talking openly about what your wife wants in bed, that's what triggers her nerves and tanks her mood, and that's the obstacle. So I think you have two angles here. Both are compatible. Option one, a sh*tload of booze, uh, no, I'm kidding. The real option one is you take charge a little more. You don't talk as directly about these fantasies. You just start experimenting. Try out some of the things she wants. See how she responds. Be respectful. Move slowly but take a chance. You guys have been married for two and a half decades. There's a lot of love and trust here. So I think you have a strong foundation to work with. I think there's a good chance your wife doesn't actually want to talk about this. She just wants to do it. And I understand that. And part of the fantasy might be you doing it without fricking turning it into a clinical case study in the psychodynamics of BDSM or whatever. This is not a discussion session led by a TA in a medical school.

[00:38:41] To be clear, I'm not saying do anything without her consent, even if that is part of the fantasy. I know that stuff gets complicated. You can check in with her a bunch to make sure it's all welcome. I just mean, maybe the better approach isn't to intellectualize this, but explore it in action. Maybe just experiencing it will be the thing that removes the self-consciousness, not the over-planning.

[00:39:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:39:04] Jordan Harbinger: And then you ease into this more and more and more and probably have a lot of fun. Like, I don't think you need to be like, "What kind of plastic sheeting do we need to lay down on the floor before?" And that's not romantic.

[00:39:14] Option two, your wife does some work on her own to work through what sounds like shame attached to some of this. If she has her own conflicts around what she likes, which is very common, she might have to resolve that first. I assume you can do that on a Zoom session with a therapist who probably does this stuff specifically. My hope is that she can learn to resolve that with you, either in the talking or in the doing, but you might have to be patient while she comes to terms with some stuff on her own.

[00:39:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also keep inviting her to explore this when she wants to and to make it as safe as possible for her to open up about because I could imagine a situation where — you know, Jordan, I'm just picturing like she says this thing, he gets intrigued, she gets kind of excited when they talk about it the next day, but then she hits this wall and she shuts down and then maybe he retreats and doesn't want to go near any of that because it seems kind of overwhelming or off-putting or just like confusing. And then, they don't talk about it anymore until the next time she pops a Lunesta or whatever. And then, that might be reinforcing the cycle of "I want to talk about it, I can't talk about it. Where are we?"

[00:40:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, Lunesta. Mmm, I might need some of those myself. Jen has a lot of trouble sleeping these days, you know what I'm saying?

[00:40:24] Anyway, if you guys can stay connected even when she has this response—

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:29] Jordan Harbinger: That might be the bridge that gets you across the gap. And I think the gap widens every time you try and fail and then you each retreat. Does that make sense, Gabe?

[00:40:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's exactly what I meant. Yes.

[00:40:40] Jordan Harbinger: And then, all that said, I would also listen to any potential signals that your wife doesn't actually want this. Who knows? Maybe she's got Lunesta brain. Maybe she's saying stuff she maybe kind of wants, but when it comes down to it, it's just like, it's a little bit turn off. It only exists in her mind. She doesn't really want it. Again, stuff can get complicated.

[00:40:57] Didn't Roseanne Barr pop an Ambien and then just go full KKK on Twitter? It's hard to know when the sleep medication brings out a false you and when it brings out the true you. But I think she also did something else that was super racist recently.

[00:41:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, a bit dicey with Roseanne Barr, as in the case study, but I take your point.

[00:41:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, she might be a bad case study. She might just be somebody who is actually racist and doesn't need the medication, just uses it as an excuse.

[00:41:21] So I know I'm contradicting myself a little bit here. But talking is still important, just to check in and help your wife get clear on whether she does or does not want this type of intimacy. But again, you guys won't really know until you try. And look, this isn't like some random girl you're going on five dates with, it's your wife of 25 years, so I feel like you can roll the dice a little bit, and she's not going to be like, "I feel violated because of you and I'm not comfortable saying anything," I mean, it's your wife of decades. So give it a shot as long as everybody's sort of kosher with it. I have a feeling it's going to go well and good luck. And you know, keep a tube of icy hot by the bedside. Make sure to stretch and warm up, man. You don't want to pull a hammy while you're getting your Discovery channel going.

[00:42:03] You know what you won't need highly potent prescription drugs to confess your desire for? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:42:14] This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. Alright, what platforms do millions of people trust to sell their products all around the world? Hint, it's responsible for nearly half a trillion dollars in global sales. And if you're a listener of the show, you already know the answer. It's Shopify. Shopify is the driving force behind huge brands like Allbirds, Rothy's, Brooklyn, and whether you're hustling from your home garage or your IPO ready, Shopify is the all-in-one e-commerce platform to kickstart, operate, and elevate your business. With Shopify, you can manage inventory, secure payments, use seamless shipping integrations, and customer relationship management all in one place. And if you're not a tech wizard, it doesn't matter. Shopify's intuitive interface makes setting up your online store a breeze. You get global reach with easy-to-integrate multi-language and multi-currency features, powerful marketing tools, and 24/7 support. Shopify's got five-star reviews on Product Hunt as well. You've used this before. This is the thing you use every time you buy anything online now, pretty much anywhere. So go and get it for your own business already.

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[00:43:27] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. So we used to travel a lot for podcast interviews and conferences and we love staying in Airbnbs because we often meet interesting people and the stays are just more unique and fun. One of our favorite places to stay at in LA is with a sweet older couple whose kids have moved out. They have a granny flat in their backyard. We used to stay there all the time. We were regulars, always booking their Airbnb when we flew down for interviews. And we loved it because they'd leave a basket of snacks, sometimes a bottle of wine, even a little note for us. And they would leave us freshly baked banana bread because they knew that I liked it. And they even became listeners of this podcast, which is how they knew about the banana bread. So after our house was built, we decided to become hosts ourselves, turning one of our spare bedrooms into an Airbnb. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Hey, this seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb." It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Perhaps you get a fantastic vacation plan for the balmy days of summer. As you're out there soaking up the sun and making memories, your house doesn't need to sit idle. Turn it into an Airbnb. Let it be a vacation home for somebody else. And picture this, your little one isn't so little anymore. They're headed off to college this fall. The echo in their now empty bedroom might be a little too much to bear. So, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

[00:44:50] This episode is also sponsored in part by Athletic Greens. It's obviously important to consume all the right nutrients, but achieving a perfectly balanced diet daily, not easy. This is where AG1 by Athletic Greens can help. AG1 is an all-encompassing daily nutritional supplement that incorporates 75 vitamins, minerals, ingredients derived from whole foods into one handy scoop. It's a blend of greens, probiotics, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens that actively support your energy levels, gut health, and immune response. I don't know why Jen loves it so much. She loves this stuff. She would feed this to me for dinner if I would let her. One aspect of AG1 that resonates with me. Frankly, I am a fan of how easy it is. I won't say I'm lazy, but I will say I hate complexity. Every morning, we toss a scoop in with water. You can mix it with milk. You can mix it into a smoothie and you're all set. I don't want different vitamins and pills and bottles of stuff. AG1 is a comprehensive solution. And furthermore, taste is decent, right? Slight green, just enough to know that it works. Mild green flavor, almost imperceptible when blended into a smoothie.

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[00:46:37] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:46:41] Okay, what's next?

[00:46:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 37 years old, I live in Central Mexico, and I work for a Japanese supplier in the automotive industry. I'm a salesman, a customer service person, and a project developer. My work is to get new business, make things happen, and get yelled at when everything goes wrong. I always go the extra mile. I'm the kind of guy who stays one or two hours extra in the office, comes in on weekends, solves all kinds of problems, and worries way too much about things that are not my job. I get lemons and make lemonade. In the past, this has awarded me promotions and the respect of my peers. But lately, I've realized that this model doesn't work anymore. I've been promised a promotion for three years by two different bosses. The last one, before returning to Japan, told me he was going to promote me to sub-manager, but it never happened. He went back to Japan months ago and left me with a ton of work undone. Now, I have the work of an acting manager without any of the compensation. I know I'm not getting the promotion. I already asked, and I just got silence. So, I'm rejecting all the new work and setting boundaries with my bosses. If I'm not a manager, I shouldn't do manager's work, but that's not a solution. I know my time here is over and it's time for a new job. I just want to learn something from this experience. How do you balance going the extra mile with protecting and valuing your time? How much is too much? Signed, El Que Se Alquila En La Maquina.

[00:48:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh snap, so we're doing sign-offs in different languages now?

[00:48:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: That was actually from the guy who wrote in, and kudos to you for that one, hermano. I like that one.

[00:48:22] Jordan Harbinger: That reminds me of Arrested Development — hermano.

[00:48:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hermano.

[00:48:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:48:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, uh, I think that means the guy who rents himself out in a foreign-owned factory in Mexico.

[00:48:33] Jordan Harbinger: It's nice. I mean, that is a good one.

[00:48:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a great one.

[00:48:36] Jordan Harbinger: Very good, well done in Spanish as well. Although is it easier to rhyme in Spanish? It seems like it might be.

[00:48:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: I actually think it is a little bit sometimes. Maybe we should outsource the sign-offs to this guy.

[00:48:46] Jordan Harbinger: There you go.

[00:48:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Kind of like how this Japanese company is outsourcing automotive parts to his factory. He clearly does not have enough work to do.

[00:48:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right, you're only doing one or two unpaid jobs. Let's give him another one. He needs more lemons to make uncompensated lemonade out of.

[00:49:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

[00:49:00] Jordan Harbinger: Let's dive into this because he's actually asking a really good question.

[00:49:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:49:04] Jordan Harbinger: So, if you listen to the show regularly, you know Gabe and I are big fans of going the extra mile. Whatever people write to us saying like, "Hey, I want to get promoted, I want a better title, I want more responsibility." Our response is always, great, stop waiting for permission. Show your bosses what you can do just by doing it. And act as if you already have that promotion. You know, not doing other people's work, but going the extra mile. Do that for three, four, six months, however long it takes to generate real results that you can then go to your company and say, "Hey, look, this is what I've accomplished. This is how much I care. I'd love to be compensated for this value that I'm creating for you." And that conversation usually goes very differently from the typical, you know, "Hey, I want to rise up. Please give me a chance." It's a totally different paradigm for rising up.

[00:49:54] I remember a long time ago I hired a guy, he wasn't really performing well and he said something like, "Well, if you guys make me a partner, an equity partner in the business, I'll do more work." And we were like, "When can we fire this kid because he does not get it."

[00:50:07] Now, I've seen firsthand how this works, but it doesn't always work because sometimes a company just can't or will not reward you, and that sucks, obviously. So that's where you need to make a call about the limit in terms of going above and beyond. Every company's different. Sometimes it takes a few months to know whether you're going to get what you want. Sometimes it takes a year or more, but he said it's been three years of this now.

[00:50:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:50:32] Jordan Harbinger: That is more than enough time to know that these people are not valuing you correctly. And maybe I'm talking out of school here, but I feel like I've heard this about Japanese companies before. It's like, "Oh, you're not Japanese. You are not going to ever get into a leadership role because that's not how we roll. Period."

[00:50:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting.

[00:50:50] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know if that's the case here. I mean, they are in Mexico. Maybe there's other Mexican managers at the level he wants to get to, but I mean, how much of a beating do you need to take at this point? Since you know this promotion ain't coming, my advice is you start looking for another job, and you use this awesome experience you've carved out for yourself to tell a great story. And by the way, this is why you can't lose, by going the extra mile before you get promoted. People ask us that a lot too. "So I'm just supposed to do more work for the same pay? Won't I be undervaluing myself? Won't I be taken advantage of?" And the answer is, yeah, at a certain point maybe, but it's never a total loss because if your company refuses to reward your hard work, you now have a ton of experience to speak to in interviews. And that is an amazing pitch to a prospective hiring manager. "Yeah, I was a salesman and project developer. My job was to drum up new business, but I actually did the work of a sub-manager without anyone asking me. I handled this and this and that, and I managed a team of N people. I constantly look for problems to solve. That's the experience that I want to bring to your company." Now, your boss might not have formalized the promotion and the pay, but it doesn't matter because you gave that promotion to yourself. And now you're taking all of those accomplishments into your interviews for the next position.

[00:52:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Could not agree more. And that's what you're learning from this experience, that you did so much right. You just probably did it for longer than you should have, which is totally fine and honestly speaks to your great character. So next time, this happens, if it happens, I hope it doesn't, but if it does, you'll know sooner whether a company is willing to reward you and you'll make a move a lot sooner if you have to.

[00:52:34] The way to balance going the extra mile with still valuing your effort is, I think, to do great work while also paying attention to the signals that you're receiving. You know, the way your colleagues treat you, the feedback you get, the degree of responsibility you have, of the influence you have, yes, of course, the money you make, the title, the quality of your relationships with everybody else in the office — that'll tell you what you need to know. You know, we can't sit here and tell you something like, you know, only work hard for five and a half months and not a day longer or whatever.

[00:53:04] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or, you know, just stay until 6:45, after that, you're a sucker. It doesn't really work like that. Every situation is different, but you know in your bones, when people take you seriously and when they value you. And after a while, you kind of know when they're going to reward you with the external stuff. So, generally speaking, I would say, what, Jordan, after nine months, maybe a year of chasing a promotion, if you're not getting any closer to what you want, then it's probably time to reevaluate. But I wouldn't let this negative experience here with this promotion kill this incredible mindset of yours because you have so much to offer, dude. And you're a real leader and employees like that are a gift.

[00:53:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I would say one caveat is if your bosses are telling you you're biting off more than you can chew and you should focus on your own job—

[00:53:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:53:52] Jordan Harbinger: —then it's a problem. Because what they're saying is, you're not getting your own job done, stop trying to do other people's jobs.

[00:53:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:53:58] Jordan Harbinger: But if that's not happening, and they're like, "Yeah, you're doing a great job, we love all the extra work you're doing." "Can I have a potion?' "Uh, well, I don't know." Then they're taking advantage of you. So, don't give up on being generous, don't stop looking for ways to be useful. Just be a little savvier and more responsive to these signals. And now, that you're here, go find a company that values you. When you find it, this whole chapter is going to make a lot more sense, and you're going to feel so much better about your killer work. And good luck, man.

[00:54:27] Gabe, what's interesting is now he has three years of experience, but he's going to go into this position new, and they're going to be like, "Man, this guy is really cut out for management. Look at him. He's just sailing." Because you've already done the work—

[00:54:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:54:37] Jordan Harbinger: —that job for three years, which is long. You probably should already be promoted to the next level already.

[00:54:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus, this guy really knows how to rhyme.

[00:54:44] Jordan Harbinger: So yeah, that's true.

[00:54:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: You get them all over the office puns, this guy's stat.

[00:54:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's true. Now, whether the Japanese people will appreciate his Spanish pun game is up in the air also.

[00:54:54] Before we wrap up here. We got a really fascinating letter from a listener who managed to escape not one, but two multilevel marketing organizations after going through some pretty wild experiences. Gabe, you want to read that for us?

[00:55:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure thing. So the letter goes—

[00:55:09] Hi, guys. For many years, I was involved in a multilevel marketing company called MONAT and was also part of an MLM coaching group called Rank Makers. Long story short, I was caught up in this for five years. Through the coaching group, I kept purchasing additional coaching and eventually purchased the 100k Inner Circle Coaching, which involved being part of yet another Facebook group, watching more videos with the promise that I would achieve the holy grail of the six-figure income through my, quote-unquote, "network marketing business." Many of us involved in MLMs get sucked into purchasing additional coaching because our, quote-unquote, "businesses don't grow." We believe there's something wrong with our mindset, that we have limiting beliefs, that we're sabotaging ourselves. I was a very good cult member and did at least one Facebook Live every single day for three and a half years. I would do these videos on all kinds of content that often had nothing to do with MONAT and used them as a lure for people to comment on. I would then send them a DM and strike up a conversation to see if they'd be open to taking a look at a video for making passive income. Then, one day, I was out hiking and this guy partway up the trail flashed me. Dude was full on buck naked. My—

[00:56:24] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry.

[00:56:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: My instinct is to run kicked in, but simultaneously I was scolding myself. "Don't be rude. Don't make him feel bad by taking off." I had two voices raging inside of me, and as I took off running, I became angrier and angrier at myself that I fought against my instincts in this disturbing, toxic positivity kind of way. But still, like a good cult member, I made a Facebook Live at the top of the mountain about this douchebag guy. Because of that video, one of my non-MLM friends sent me a link to your Gavin de Becker interview on The Gift of Fear. I felt so validated listening to that conversation. I don't know how much you know about being in an MLM, but for me, my brain could not process anything that was against the MLM. It was like a brick wall would come down and all I could perceive was hate. In these groups I was a part of, fear was always described as false evidence appearing real. Listening to the interview, I was like, "No, fear can also be our instinct."

[00:57:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, nothing false about that dick on the trail.

[00:57:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Can't argue with that.

[00:57:27] Slowly, I began waking up more and more. When I watched LulaRich, the documentary about the famous MLM, I remember not being able to hear Robert FitzPatrick, the guy who wrote Ponzinomics, talk about how pyramid schemes work. It scared me. But I wanted to hear, and that brick wall in my brain just came down. Finally, a year and a half ago, I left the MLM and the group, and began speaking out against them on social media. I got into therapy with a psychologist who had experience working with people involved in cults, and was also against multilevel marketing. I had one goal, to see my MLM coach get out, and she did. She's joined me in whistleblowing against the coaching group. I continue to speak out and have helped others exit their MLMs and Rank Makers too. A number of things stand out to me as I heal and move on from the sh*t show I was a part of, your interview with Gavin de Becker, and that Facebook post you wrote about MLMs both encouraged me to begin thinking critically when people within the MLM told me to avoid people like you. I eventually sent you a message thanking you, and you were kind to me. Even though I knew you were against multilevel marketing. Thanks again for the content you create and the people you're helping by created. This time, the thanks is coming from me being free. Signed, Julie.

[00:58:42] Jordan Harbinger: So, of course, I loved this email. It's one of the more fascinating ones we've gotten from folks in the MLM world, or who get out of the MLM world. We get a decent amount. As you guys know, I am kind of on a mission to expose multilevel marketing scams wherever I can. I just find them to be one of the most absurd, destructive models out there. But it's really what they do to people's lives. Their worldviews, their relationships, their sense of self that gets me fired up. The way they operate like cults in a lot of ways. How they make it very difficult, if not impossible, to see outside of the oppressive bubble that they create.

[00:59:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:59:20] Jordan Harbinger: So what moved me about this letter? Well, so many things, right? But what really stands out to me is the courage it must have taken our friend here to step outside of this programming and start questioning what she was being sold.

[00:59:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:59:35] Jordan Harbinger: This is one of the hardest things to do in life. This very basic form of independent critical thinking. Because it means having to potentially give up many sources of support, right? The prosperity, connection, safety, financial, as well as emotional and intellectual support. I'm not just talking about Facebook Groups, but a lot of times your only friends are people from these MLMs. They'll cut you off. It's like being in a real cult. Really, it's like being in a culty church where you get excommunicated, right? You're a hater now. And a person who can do what Julie just did and listen, not even agree with everything she hears, but just listen, that is brilliant. But to me, this is about being willing to be in contact with reality. To reassert your own needs over the control of organizations that only want to profit from their members' extreme vulnerability. That's all this is.

[01:00:27] One of the themes we hear again and again on this show is the mental prisons that people construct around themselves. And we all do this to some degree, whether it's with our beliefs or our conditioning or our stories. It could be political, could not be. I know how hard it is to walk out of those prisons, especially after years of being inside. So when Julie talked about being scared during LulaRich, but still wanting to hear some difficult truths and also being ready to hear them, I mean, that's an important factor too. And that brick wall in her brain came down, I mean, standing ovation. Because that willingness to tolerate the discomfort, that healthy tension of being confused and uncertain, which the human brain hates, by the way, that is so important.

[01:01:11] It's table stakes for finding the people and ideas you need to help you, enrich you, make you better. But again, it takes genuine courage and humility. And for some people, including a lot of people caught up in predatory organizations, it's just too threatening, but you did that, and look where it got you. I'm insanely proud of you, really, I am, and I'm very happy that you got out.

[01:01:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Man, I am too. It's an extraordinary story. I'm also fascinated by that story about the hike. I mean, this guy who flashed her and inadvertently led her out of an MLM. She was questioning her reaction to him. It's interesting that it took something so bizarre and I don't know, like, dangerous and primal, I guess is the word that I'm looking for, to shock her back into her natural instincts.

[01:01:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, the whole false evidence appearing real, it's like, well, okay, how do I square this?

[01:01:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's pretty real.

[01:01:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was real AF. And it actually makes sense, right? A lot of times, people caught up in coercive organizations or dangerous relationships, they need an experience like that to come back to themselves.

[01:02:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:02:12] Jordan Harbinger: Because when you're threatened in a more primal way, it kind of cuts through the BS and right to the core of who you are. You know, you're back in touch with your organic responses, your healthy fear, your protective anger, whatever it is. And then when you're like, so-and-so guru would say, "This is false evidence appearing real." Your amygdala is like, "I don't care what Karen said at the last circle-up meeting on Facebook, whatever." There's a wiener in your face, man. You know, you're hiking for God's sake. So you're like, okay, a creep frigging flashed me in public, and I'm here worried about his feelings. What the hell is wrong with me?

[01:02:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: It really just, it brings the programming into stark relief.

[01:02:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good term. So, see how this conditioning and propaganda in her case, it's this toxic positivity, how that stuff sits on top of your very intelligent, indwelling instincts. And that's a moment where you go, "Okay, crap, I can't even trust my legitimate need to be physically safe. Where did that message come from?"

[01:03:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: This also reminds me of our episode with Sarah Nippy about NXIVM. You know, there were a few of those, oh sh*t moments, like the brick wall is slowly coming down moments and they had to stack up before they finally decided to leave and blow the whistle because the branding they did in that cult. I mean, much more dramatic and very weird, but it's kind of a similar thing, right? It's like, "Wait, I'm letting them physically hurt me now? Like, I'm letting people frigging mark me? Something isn't right."

[01:03:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She got branded on her vajayjay, if you haven't heard that episode yet. That was a wake up call. And also very primal, right? The pain involved with that. That's another primal experience that can shock you into taking a huge step back and questioning what you are a part of. And it's crazy that it takes something that enormous to do it. But that just speaks to how powerful these structures in your mind can be.

[01:03:57] That was episode 770 and 771. By the way, if you want to hear what it's like to be inside a sex cult, one of many sex cult episodes we've done, I guess.

[01:04:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's funny. This also reminds me, I mean, it's not funny at all, but it's interesting.

[01:04:08] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[01:04:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: This also reminds me of the letter we took a couple of months back from the woman who, do you remember the woman who grew up in that religious cult and then she got a traumatic brain injury and a car accident and—

[01:04:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Amanda Catarzi, yeah.

[01:04:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, Amanda, but I was actually talking about the woman who wrote into Feedback Friday.

[01:04:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, oh, oh.

[01:04:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was similar to Amanda.

[01:04:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, good point.

[01:04:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: This was like, six weeks ago or two months ago, and suddenly, her brain was different, her personality was different, her needs were different, and suddenly she saw how toxic the community she grew up in was because nobody took her seriously and nobody really wanted to help her after she had helped them for decades.

[01:04:38] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[01:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: In a very different way, she also had to come back to her basic needs, too, through this serious accident, which ultimately led her to wake up. And that was fascinating. That was episode 842, by the way.

[01:04:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Also, Amanda Catarzi also grew up in a cult and was being trafficked and she got in an accident. And that was her wake-up call. There's really a theme going here.

[01:04:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[01:04:57] Jordan Harbinger: So there it is again, man. This is so fascinating. All these stories have this element of physical danger or physical vulnerability. It's just, that's not a coincidence, I think. But here's the good news. We don't need to get branded or flashed on a hike or hit by a car. Before we can start thinking critically. We can start now by keeping an eye on our biases, staying connected to our healthy skepticism, choosing to remain open to the facts. But it's good to know that life has a weird way of serving up the experiences we need to wake up sometimes anyway.

[01:05:30] So Julie, it's hard to express how much this email means to us. We're thrilled our show could play even a small role in you waking up, so to speak. I thank you for sharing your story with us and using your real name, which you actually encouraged us to do because you said the best way to deal with the shame that these groups created is to own your story. And I really admire that. You're an amazing model for tons of people caught up in questionable groups. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're a frigging champ and a hero and I wish only good things for you from here on out. And deviant free hikes too because you deserve at least that.

[01:06:05] Imagine Gabe, all it took was one hairy swinging schlong to break the paradigm and turn things around. And Julie, that man on your path, that was me. You're welcome.

[01:06:17] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened thank you so much. Go back and check out the episodes with Rory Stewart including our fundraiser with GiveDirectly to help lift a village in Kenya out of poverty. Givedirectly.com/jordan is where you can find it. Remi Adeleke and our Skeptical Sunday on astrology. Make sure to check out those episodes if you haven't done so yet. And once again, the fundraiser is givedirectly.com/jordan.

[01:06:42] Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023. So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, Podcast Addict is a good one, Castbox. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts. The Stitcher app is going away, folks.

[01:07:00] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our Six-Minute Networking course. It's free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not culty and it's totally schlong free and you can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you thirsty, build relationships before you nee d them. Again, at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[01:07:25] Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals or ask our AI chatbot right there on the website. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:07:47] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:08:19] Now I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before we get into that, here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:08:25] Jon Taffer: If you're not honest with yourself, then how do you ever move your life in a positive direction? Because you're starting from a point of fantasy. Nobody can succeed if they're not honest with themselves.

[01:08:37] Revenue cures all. You know, when I talk to people in business seminars, and they say, "You know, Jon, my labor cost is high, my marketing cost is high, my promotion cost is high, my tech cost is high." But if I could raise your revenue by 30 percent, you wouldn't have tech cost problems anymore. You wouldn't have labor cost problems. So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives.

[01:08:59] If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in the morning and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now? How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then, I can deal with all of the other things that I have to, but there's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. And if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first thing, probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur.

[01:09:23] And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender, people say, "He's been a bartender for 10 years. He should be the manager." No. If he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be the manager. Some people are comfortable where they are and you promote them right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave him alone.

[01:09:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:09:48] Jon Taffer: The person who's not comfortable, who's bubbling up on their own, that's the one who should be promoted. Even if they've only been a couple of months.

[01:09:54] I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader. I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed him off a cliff. Leadership is born, it's not given.

[01:10:06] Jordan Harbinger: For more no-nonsense business advice with Bar Rescue star Jon Taffer, check out episode 142 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:10:16] Paula Barros: Hi, Cold Case Files fans, we have some exciting news for you. Brand new episodes of Cold Case Files are dropping in your feed, and I'm your new host, Paula Barros. I'm a Cold Case Files superfan, true crime aficionado, and I love telling stories with unbelievable twists and turns. And this season of Cold Case Files has all of that and more.

[01:10:37] Her cause of death was strangulation.

[01:10:40] Male 1: Lying face down on the bed.

[01:10:41] Male 2: She was in a pretty advanced state of decomposition.

[01:10:44] Male 3: He panicked and decided he was getting rid of the body.

[01:10:46] Female: I saw danger in everything.

[01:10:48] Paula Barros: So get ready. You don't want to miss what this season has in store. New episodes of Cold Case Files drop every Tuesday. Subscribe to Cold Case Files wherever you listen to podcasts.