865: Can Relationship Live on If China Takes Taiwan? | Feedback Friday

865: Can Relationship Live on If China Takes Taiwan? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Airbnb for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe you've stayed at an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Yeah, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb." It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. Find out how much your place is worth at airbnb.com/host.

[00:00:21] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my crony in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

[00:00:45] During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of incredible people from organized crime figures to investigative journalists to music moguls. And this week, we had Juan Zarate, this guy's a certified genius, talking about how the United States uses financial policy and the treasury to wage war against terrorism and enemies of the United States. It sounds boring when I phrase it like that. I agree. It's not boring. It's really interesting. It's not just interest rates and dollars and cents and reserve currency. There's more. So you're going to have to take my word for it. There's no way for me to sort of short-pitch this and make it sound as interesting as it actually was. We also had Caroline Rose on Captagon. This is a drug that I had never heard of that is apparently taking over huge swathes of the Middle East. Billions of dollars worth of this stuff are smuggled across the Middle East and the Levant and funds the civil war and the regime in Syria. I had no idea that that was even going on. And we had a Skeptical Sunday on targeted ads, you know, those ads that follow you around when you're talking in your kitchen, and then suddenly you see an advertisement for something. That is only going to get worse, and we cracked that wide open on Skeptical Sunday. So have a listen to everything that we created for you here this week.

[00:01:56] By the way, if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this show, they are getting rid of that app. August 29th. It will no longer be useful. So switch to a different app if you use the Stitcher app to listen to this podcast. If you're on Android, I suggest Podcast Addict. It might not be as pretty, but it works really well. If you're on iOS, Apple. You should use Overcast in my humble opinion or Apple Podcasts, but definitely no longer Stitcher. It will not update anymore in the next couple of months. So if you're using the Stitcher app, now is a good time to switch to a new podcast app. And if you have any problems with this, you're kind of Boomer in terms of your tech, you don't know what to do, you can always email me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will try to point you in the right direction, but the Stitcher app will no longer work for this show.

[00:02:39] On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play annoying soundbites, and mercilessly roast Gabriel for his appearance/life choices.

[00:02:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which I'm making extremely easy today by wearing another tank top, that's a spiritual gangster, so I really should have thought about this in advance.

[00:02:55] Jordan Harbinger: When you say another, are you just wearing the same one, or do you have, like, 18 spiritual gangster tanks?

[00:03:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I appreciate you teeing me up for this. I think we already established that I have four or five, and I am wearing one of them, but it's not the same one as last time.

[00:03:09] Jordan Harbinger: Right, and it's a slightly different font or whatever. Yep, of course.

[00:03:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, speaking of questionable life choices.

[00:03:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:03:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: You remember that story you told me the other day about the time you ended up in Kosovo?

[00:03:20] Jordan Harbinger: I do. That was kind of a weird one.

[00:03:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like you got to share that with everyone. I keep thinking about it. It's so interesting.

[00:03:26] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. So I'll keep this relatively short, but Kosovo, it was a crazy place 20 years ago. This is like 2003. I'm sure it's quite wild now, but I went to Bosnia for what I thought was going to be two days when I was living in Serbia and I brought one outfit. It was a tracksuit because, you know, Yugoslavia. And I went all over Bosnia. My friends had to leave and I was like, I'm just going to stick around and go around a little bit by myself. And that's where I met Sailor Joe. I met him at a coffee shop in Montenegro on that same trip. So I left for Bosnia, went to Montenegro, met Sailor Joe, hung out with him, met this other dude there who was like living in Germany, an American guy.

[00:04:04] And we were like, let's go to Kosovo. So we went to Albania, all by car, sort of hitchhiking/taking taxis. And in one of the cities in Kosovo, we had an Albanian cab driver and he only spoke German, but his German wasn't that good. And so, before taking our bus, we said, we want to get t-shirts from the Kosovo Liberation Army, which is like an insurgent group fighting the Serbs slash doing probably some bad ish too, but we didn't know. We wanted to get t-shirts. So we told him we wanted to get t-shirts or memorabilia from the war. And he was like, "Okay, I know just the place." We thought we're going to like a t-shirt stand or something. He drives us to a KLA camp, like a military base.

[00:04:46] And they're like, "What are you doing?" And we said, "We just told our taxi driver, we wanted some t-shirts." And they're like, "So you don't want to tour the camp?" And I was like, "Well, we kind of do." And he's like, "Give me your passport." So we gave him the passports. They took them, led us inside the camp. And they're like, "What do you guys want to see?" So they're showing us pictures and explaining stuff to us and showing of friends that got killed and all these photos. And they're like, "Do you want to shoot with us?" And we're like, "Absolutely." So we start shooting targets, and we're about to miss our bus. And me and Joe are like, "We're just missing this bus, right? This is one of those experiences where you don't leave early to go catch a bus." So we hung out there.

[00:05:21] Then, we had to kill the rest of the evening. So we're like, "Well, let's go walk through the city." So we were going out to eat and stuff, but we're like, "Let's take a little nighttime tour." So we're walking through destroyed churches, destroyed mosques, you know, that were destroyed in the civil conflict that was there. And we run into this German patrol because we're hiking in church ruins in this area where nobody lives anymore. And they were like, "What are you—?" They're like, "Hold up, don't move." And I'm like, "I'm not stealing the sign," because I was touching the sign that was dangling off of a church. It was like a sign that said UN restricted area, something, something, something. And they're like, "Wait, where are you from?" And we're like, "United States." I'm like, "You guys are Germany?" So I started speaking German with him. But they're all like 19 years old, right?

[00:06:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: And they're just on their year abroad in the army. And they were like, "What the actual hell are you guys doing here?" Not even just in this part of the world, but like, especially in Kosovo in the evening in this destroyed church. And we're like, "Yeah, we're just exploring." And they're like, "We've never seen backpackers here at this time. This is absolutely nuts."

[00:06:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm still confused, though, like why was there a German patrol in Kosovo?

[00:06:27] Jordan Harbinger: So the UN had stepped in after the Serbs had tried to push out the Albanians and the Albanians were fighting back and they were trying to get Kosovo independent of Serbia. Kosovo is an old part of Yugoslavia and has a lot of significance for Serbs. My history is not exactly great in this area, but there's historical significance for everybody there. And the Albanians were being pushed out by the Serbs who got bombed by the United States/NATO. Then the Albanians were like, "Screw it. We're going to move in even stronger and dig in here even more." And so they are destroying churches while the Serbs militias were destroying mosques. A lot of pretty bad stuff went down in the late '90s, just like Bosnia.

[00:07:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: So these were UN trips then.

[00:07:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so these are UN basically like peacekeepers in the area.

[00:07:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Got it. Okay. Now that makes sense.

[00:07:12] Jordan Harbinger: With like full armament walking around basically making sure people aren't looting or about to blow stuff up. So they saw us and they were like, "What are you doing?" I mean, it was like safeties off the guns, I would imagine at that point until we were like, "Hey, hey, we're just backpacking and hanging out," because they don't know who we are. And we're in this area that's been destroyed and looted and says restricted area. We didn't climb a fence, but nobody's there.

[00:07:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:07:34] Jordan Harbinger: It's a part of town where like, you don't need to go there. We saw a lot of crazy sad stuff in those areas, man. There were a lot of kids that had no parents. There were a lot of destroyed churches that were absolutely enormous cathedral-sized churches that were now just big piles of rocks because they were blown up, right? They weren't just dismantled or lit on fire. I mean, they were blown to smithereens and it was extremely sad. And we even met one guy who wanted to be our tour guide. And I remember being like, "Huh, do you mind me asking, why you're so dark? You don't look Serbian. You don't even look Albanian." He's like, "Oh, I'm Italian, but my parents came here on vacation in the '80s and they left me here." Can you imagine?

[00:08:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man. I did not hear this part of the story.

[00:08:17] Jordan Harbinger: No.

[00:08:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's sad.

[00:08:18] Jordan Harbinger: It's so sad. It's so sad. So this guy, he was probably like eight. His parents came there from Italy on vacation, and they left without him, and the local villagers were like, "Okay?" And it was Yugoslavia, and so they were like, okay, you're in the system now, so you just grew up, I guess, kind of like, I don't know, fostered by—

[00:08:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Locals? Weird.

[00:08:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, very odd, and a really unimaginable thing to do to your kids. I don't have any idea what would be going through their heads doing something like that.

[00:08:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Something going on there, but yeah, to like leave your kid when you're from Italy and to leave them in Kosovo? That's uh—

[00:08:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:08:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a world.

[00:08:55] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, did people go to vacation in Kosovo from Italy and—

[00:08:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know, that's also weird, like what were they doing there in the first place?

[00:09:00] Jordan Harbinger: The whole thing made zero sense to me, frankly.

[00:09:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sounds like a villain origin story or something.

[00:09:05] Jordan Harbinger: It does, and he had mental issues, man. He was like super angry and just not all there.

[00:09:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: That tracks.

[00:09:12] Jordan Harbinger: There's a lot more to that story, but I know this is Feedback Friday, and a lot of people are like, okay, get on with it. Before we jump in, we have our newsletter. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from years ago, potentially, that I go through, reanalyze, deliver to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 800-plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news.

[00:09:37] All right, Gabe, I know we got some weird ones. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:09:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. A couple of years back, I met a wonderful girl from Taiwan with whom I connected deeply. I'm not Taiwanese or even ethnically Asian, but we ended up moving to Taiwan as I wanted to improve my Mandarin and she wanted to be closer to her family and I've managed to integrate into life here quite easily. Recently, we started talking about what we would do if China ever attempted to forcefully unify Taiwan. She loves her country very much and is a semi-prominent figure aligned with pro-independence politicians. So she's adamant that she'd like to stay in Taiwan, be with her family who might be unable to leave, and try and help defend Taiwan. While I love this country, I realize that this might not be my fight to fight. And even if I volunteered, it would cause significant suffering to my family back in my home country. She agrees with me on this point, and would like me to leave if something ever did happen. But given my girlfriend's political affiliation, I'm afraid of the potential for political persecution, incarceration, rape, torture, and worse. And the chilling videos emerging out of Ukraine make this fear more ingrained. I know that if war broke out, I wouldn't be able to leave her behind. And if I did, it would haunt me for the rest of my life. Is it my place to insist that I would want her out of harm's way? If so, how should I navigate this sensitive issue without offloading my dilemma onto her? Signed, Planning for Strife with My Politically Connected Wife.

[00:11:09] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, great question. Super fascinating. So I got to say I definitely understand your fear. If China ever did annex Taiwan, which is not completely out of the question or realm of possibility, that would be a huge deal. Based on what I've read and just what I know of authoritarian regimes in general, I don't mean to alarm you, but you already know this, your girlfriend would probably either be murdered or disappeared into the Chinese prison system and never heard from again. Or, the government would just make her life a living hell, along with her family and other party members. You'd get visits from the police constantly, you know, you wouldn't be able to get jobs. I'm pretty sure you'd be in danger as her partner, too. You'd have an exit ban, or you'd get arrested here and there, or you'd get kicked out.

[00:11:52] Obviously, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not, and I think it's wise to assume the worst in a situation like this. I also understand your conflict, that this isn't your fight to fight. Not just because you're not Taiwanese, but because, I mean, what are you going to do? Sure, you could stay and fight, but you're just one person with very little influence. If there's a conflict, that stuff's going to be determined at the highest levels. That's going to be a US Navy versus China blockade of Taiwan. Not like house-to-house fighting, which also you're not trained for. I don't know if you are or not, but I'm guessing you're not.

[00:12:24] In my view, the rational choice is to leave. But that's a lot easier for you to do than for her. She has a lot on the line, philosophically, in virtue of her nationality, her career, and hey, maybe she needs to stay for her job, maybe leaving would be abdicating some huge responsibility, which makes this decision really, really tough. Ultimately, you guys will have to decide what's more important in your relationship. Your ideals and your responsibilities, or your safety and your closeness. That's something that only you can answer through a lot of conversation.

[00:12:55] And in that conversation, yes, I think you get to a place where you say, "Look, I don't mean to be presumptuous. I know it's easier for me to say, but if we were ever attacked, I would want you out of harm's way." Just see how she responds. Help her understand the position that you are into. There's a way to approach both of your positions without offloading your entire dilemma over to her. This is ultimately going to be a negotiation between your needs and values. But look, if it's me and the worst-case scenario ever did come to pass, I'm pretty sure I would try to convince my partner and friends and family to leave with me for the United States or Canada, wherever you live. But I'm more practical. Other people aren't. And it's easy for an American to say this from the outside. Maybe if I was from Taiwan or Ukraine or any country with a legitimate right to exist being attacked by a foreign country, maybe I'd be more romantic about this stuff too. I get it. To some degree, I actually admire it.

[00:13:51] But here's the thing, you can do more when you're alive and in exile than you can if you stay and die or you get locked up forever in some crap hole prison. Better to be a Taiwan activist in exile than an Alexei Navalny who's probably going to die tragically in a Russian prison, unfortunately.

[00:14:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. But if you were Alexei Navalny, there's no way you would leave. Because your whole life would be dedicated to this idea. Right? Like leaving would be just a total abandonment of the cause.

[00:14:19] Jordan Harbinger: Clearly, Alexei Navalny sees it that way. And that's what I'm not totally clear about on the girlfriend. She's a semi-prominent figure. I don't really know what that means.

[00:14:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:14:28] Jordan Harbinger: She's aligned with pro independence politicians, okay. Maybe in her heart, she's like, "I just can't leave this place. You know, I am Taiwan," which fine, but you got to draw the line somewhere. Where are you most useful? Is it just a symbol to stay? Because if so, maybe you're—

[00:14:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:14:42] Jordan Harbinger: You should not do that.

[00:14:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's such an interesting question, what role ideas and ideals should play in a relationship? You know, these concepts of patriotism, loyalty, duty, they're significant. They're real to these people who are involved in a situation like this. And I especially get them in the context of Taiwan or Ukraine, but are they more important than love, than safety, literally being alive? I don't know. I tend to lean toward not, but I've never been in this situation. So yeah, it's really hard to speak for them. It's so dramatic, though.

[00:15:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, this very special relationship that they have is being challenged by geopolitics and competing values.

[00:15:25] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just kind of hard to even wrap your head around stuff that big.

[00:15:27] Jordan Harbinger: It kind of sounds like a movie in there somewhere, but also maybe—

[00:15:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, right.

[00:15:30] Jordan Harbinger: —like a North Korean movie where it's like, "I want to go with my love, but I'm torn for love of the revolution."

[00:15:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:15:36] Jordan Harbinger: And instead, I have to stay here and fight the evil Japanese slash American slash whatever.

[00:15:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Lovers torn asunder by war and love of country, or whatever.

[00:15:44] Jordan Harbinger: I'm streaming that sh*t on Hulu.

[00:15:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, same. I'm signing up for the streaming service to watch that one.

[00:15:49] Jordan Harbinger: As I also annoyingly critique the Mandarin subtitle translation. But, look, there's one big piece of good news here, which is I don't think it's likely that China will invade Taiwan anytime soon. And of course, someone's going to listen to this in a decade and be like, "Ah, that aged like milk." Hopefully, not but China would be blockaded and sanctioned by the international community. And their economy is on thin ice right now. A lot of people don't think that would happen. I think it would definitely happen. Dictators like Xi gain legitimacy from prosperity and strength where they can. So strength says, yeah, let's talk a lot of smack about invading Taiwan. Prosperity says don't actually do it because that will tank the economy. So he has to talk a big game about Taiwan. He's got to shoot missiles and rockets into the ocean in huge numbers and kill a bunch of fish to show that he's a tough guy. While really doing absolutely nothing to upset the delicate global balance of trade that is almost entirely secured by the US Navy. And the Chinese Navy is not able to do this.

[00:16:49] So Peter Zeihan actually talked about that in our interview together, fascinating conversation. That was episode 781. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. You might find that interesting if you haven't heard it yet. Also, your girlfriend and her family, they might be able to escape to your home country if they have a credible fear of being rounded up by the CCP, by the Chinese Communist Party. And that's something to look into. I know there are practical challenges around that, and it's hard to bank on that in advance. So if you're really worried about it, maybe you marry her and get her a blue passport, dude. Also, if you want to make a difference, I would lobby your home country's politicians to stand with Taiwan. Because again, that's what matters more here. Not whether one or two people stay.

[00:17:30] So, phew, really tough situation. I feel for you both, I really do. Your only real option is to have some very honest conversations about this, but while you do, I would also try to stay present and not get too caught up in the what-ifs that might never come to pass. Stay vigilant, try and read the tea leaves, look for signals, but do your best not to suffer in advance. We're wishing you, your girlfriend, and the people of Taiwan all of our best.

[00:18:00] You know what you're definitely going to want to bring with you when you hightail it out of a war zone, Gabriel? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:18:11] This episode is also sponsored by Bradley Smoker. So yes, this is a meat smoker, and I know this is such a random sponsor for the podcast, but I've always kind of liked smoky flavored meat, think Texas style pull apart brisket, but I never in a million years thought that I would do it. First of all, I don't even cook friggin instant oatmeal over here. So, somebody who's going to smoke their own meat just sounds like a seasoned pit master who kills their own animals with a knife or something like that, that they carry between their teeth and pounce. I'm not that guy. Further, I'd imagine hours of monitoring, measuring the temperature, calculating how much wood you add. Well, enter the Bradley Smoker, founded by a friend of a friend. This thing is a game changer. I never knew I needed this. We got the P10 Smoker. It's amazing. So instead of hiring caterers now for big parties, Chinese New Year, whatever, we use our Bradley Smoker to feed a party of over 40 people, and people were blown away that we cooked this 20-pound brisket for over 20 hours. Ribs, we sous vide them and then smoke them. People were hoovering these things up. People has to take food home from a party in my house And that's they were just like, "I'm not even worried about how tacky this looks I want a Tupperware container to take your food home with me." A key differentiator between how Bradley Smokers smoke food versus pellet grill is Bradley's got this proprietary technology that heats up these wood biscuits that release the smoke, but then it extinguishes the biscuit in a bowl of water below before they turn into ash. So you don't get that ashtray taste, you get the good stuff, and you don't get that really kind of unhealthy, gnarly, bad flavor from smoking the food. And the whole thing is automated. It's got the feeder system that takes the guesswork on how much wood you need and all that stuff. I highly recommend this. You know we'll be smoking up a feast for Thanksgiving and Christmas this year. Use coupon code JORDAN and get 15 percent off any of the smokers.

[00:20:02] Jen Harbinger: Again, use coupon code JORDAN and get 15 percent off any Bradley Smokers. Go to bradleysmoker.com.

[00:20:09] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Many of us are stuck in the role of the selfless provider. You're like a candle burning at both ends, steadily providing light to others, yet being consumed bit by bit until you become a smoldering wick. Sound like you? Well, therapy can help equip you with the strategies and insights to find balance, helping you learn how to lend a helping hand without letting go of your own lifeline, so you can care for others without the expense of neglecting yourself. You've heard us talk about this on Feedback Friday before. Setting boundaries, protecting yourself, having those difficult conversations that go along with it. BetterHelp Therapists can help with all of that and Better Help is a wonderful platform to give you access to a licensed professional therapist. Not a friend that's probably sick of hearing about your problems right at your fingertips. It's all online so there's no need to travel and find parking and make an appointment with somebody who's not taking new patients and yada, yada. And if you live in a remote area, you're overseas, you're trying to find somebody in your language, you got a busy schedule, you know who you are. Better Help can help you work around all of those challenges.

[00:21:04] Jen Harbinger: Find more balance with Better Help. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:21:13] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support us are on the deals page, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for sponsors using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:21:32] Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

[00:21:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 26-year-old female who's very career driven and just started a graduate program to become a child and adolescent therapist. I've also recently reconnected with a past romantic interest and everything was going great. Until I found out that he's part of an MLM.

[00:22:02] And by the way, the listener actually wrote the dun, dun, dun.

[00:22:05] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, she did? She's amazing.

[00:22:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:22:06] Jordan Harbinger: Like please cue Into the tacky soundbite that you play.

[00:22:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: You would know the MLM. It's one of the huge ones.

[00:22:14] Jordan Harbinger: Got it.

[00:22:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is in the letter. I'm reading the letter again. She's saying this. You would know it.

[00:22:18] Jordan Harbinger: There's only a few really big ones, so yeah.

[00:22:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

[00:22:21] I know how you feel about these things, and I feel similarly. I tried to hear him out and ask the right questions to lead him into seeing that this is a scam, but he's convinced that his mentor, quote-unquote, "saved his life."

[00:22:33] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:22:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: This comment, plus an overwhelming amount of defensiveness on his part, only leads me to feel more resistant towards this business opportunity. He admits that the company is an MLM, but says they aren't scamming people. I'm not ready to let this connection go just yet, given that we're actually quite compatible, and I could see a future with this person. Am I overreacting, or missing something? Should I let him make his own mistakes, and hope that the inevitable blowback only impacts me minimally? Or do I keep asking questions? And hope that he eventually comes around. Signed, Call My Boyfriend Tutankhamen Because He'd Be Stuck in This Pyramid.

[00:23:11] Jordan Harbinger: You know, I'm not totally sold on the pronunciation of Tutankhamen. That sounds very Americanized. That can't be it.

[00:23:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't that how you learned it in school? Like in elementary school?

[00:23:21] Jordan Harbinger: It is, but I just think it's Tutankhaman or Tutankhamun or something like that. There's just no way. It just happens to match how my parents talk about everything.

[00:23:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's Google that later.

[00:23:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we'll have to check that out later on.

[00:23:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's carry on. Yeah.

[00:23:33] Jordan Harbinger: We should ask the Egyptologist that was on the show, but we don't have that kind of time.

[00:23:37] All right. I don't know about this, not the pronunciation of Tutankhamen.

[00:23:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:23:43] Jordan Harbinger: But I'm talking about the MLM situation here. This guy is very committed from the sound of it, which is actually how most MLM members are. It's tribal. It's culty. It's very rah, rah, especially the people who have experienced some, quote-unquote, "success" with the program or even some real success monetarily. That's how the MLM wants it. It's very tricky. It creates an us-versus-them mentality, which explains your boyfriend's defensiveness for him to admit that he's part of a shady organization or even just to engage with your questions. Yeah, that's probably very threatening, but he's not a bad guy. You guys are compatible. You could see a future with him. Given what you shared with us. He must be a decent guy, and that just puts you in a tough spot.

[00:24:29] So, look, before I say anything else, let's be crystal fricking clear about something. MLMs are always scams, always underline, bold, highlight, whatever, even for the tiny percentage of people near the top who actually make money. And most don't, they just can't calculate their profit and loss correctly because it's hidden by design. Just because somebody is benefiting temporarily or otherwise from a scam, that doesn't make the scam less scammy. If they're making a million dollars a year, but it's a scam, they're still involved in a scam. They're just not as much of a victim as the people at the bottom. They're either helping people perpetuate the scam on other people. So they're creating victims or there are layers above them that make them victims to financially successful victims, perhaps, but victims, nonetheless.

[00:25:17] Companies with good products. They don't want to use the MLM business model. It's bad business. Think about it. If you had a store that sells protein shakes, would you want five more of them to open up in the same fricking floor of the apartment building as you live on? No, obviously not. But MLMs encourage that among other ridiculous business practices that no actual business would ever use because the customer is the seller. And there are virtually no other customers who are not also selling the same overpriced goods. In other words, the model requires people to dupe their friends and family into buying something that is overpriced and super high margin on a regular basis to support the pyramid. There is no such thing as an MLM that is not bad for society and everybody who was part of that MLM, period. And I'm sure MLMs have a clever response to all that, but at the end of the day, that's what it is.

[00:26:14] So no, you're not overreacting, not at all. I would be concerned about what this said about a friend or family member or a partner as well. Oh, and when recruiting slows down, or the down lines aren't performing, guess who your boy is going to try to sell to? Yes, your friends and your family. So now, your partner is victimizing those in your own social and family circle. Not really what I would want out of a relationship, personally.

[00:26:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't want to speculate too much, but in our experience, generally speaking, people who get very into MLMs are usually vulnerable in some way.

[00:26:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:26:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Either vulnerable or desperate. And those usually are the two main characteristics, and they often amount to the same thing. The MLM offers them something that they need very badly, and that's why they're drawn to it.

[00:27:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yep, a hundred percent. Stability, money, community, purpose, a sense of agency, whether that's real or imagined.

[00:27:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: None of those things are inherently bad. Of course, we all want those things. But when they're packaged and sold to people as a sales pitch to join this predatory organization, that's when it becomes problematic. So where my mind goes is, what might have drawn your boyfriend to this MLM, and is that a possible window into all of this?

[00:27:29] Jordan Harbinger: Well, we have one big clue, which is that he's convinced that his mentor saved his life. Fricking weird thing to say, man.

[00:27:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Quite a loaded phrase.

[00:27:38] Jordan Harbinger: Also, by the way, a classic MLM story, too.

[00:27:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:27:41] Jordan Harbinger: Because a lot of these pyramids, they encourage basically some bullsh*t form of mentorship. It sounds nice, I guess, but in the context of that world, it's something totally different. I mean, how did a person in a company that sells, I don't know, hair products or sticky nails or whatever save his life? That makes me worried that he's somewhat brainwashed that this product, whatever it is, because some of the products make medical claims. Maybe he thinks the product does something for people that it doesn't actually do medically. Or that he has other challenges that he's not addressing in a meaningful way by building a career in a legitimate industry or, say, working with a therapist. So he's just turning to some random mentor to solve whatever issue it is, who's literally, really is just some guy in the MLM pretending to fricking be his friend while selling him overpriced products as part of his downline.

[00:28:35] Sorry, I feel like I'm being a little bit mean. I'm not trying to be. I'm just worried about what that means, what it says about this guy.

[00:28:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know what you mean. I also wonder if this guy was at a point of real despair before he got involved, and somebody in the organization helped him. And look, maybe there's something pure and meaningful about that person's help. I mean, clearly, this mentor did something important for him. Unclear how much it has to do with the product they sell or if they were actually, you know, friends and this guy gave him a lifeline or gave him some revenue or, you know, like another chance in his career. We don't know exactly. But that is also what is so tricky about all this and why he's so defensive because his experience of being, quote-unquote, "saved" wrapped up in the questionable work that they do. So to poke around the whole MLM is to question the validity of that relationship that he feels is so precious, and maybe the security of it. Because If he confronts that the MLM is problematic, he might lose this person who's significant to him. And as shady as all of this stuff is, I actually do understand that.

[00:29:35] Jordan Harbinger: That's fair, and I guess I do feel for him there because it can be hard to separate those two things out. Also, not being able to separate those two things out, that is exactly the kind of thinking—

[00:29:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:29:46] Jordan Harbinger: —that predatory organizations encourage. I can't tell you how many times I've been in an Uber where somebody's all excited about the new MLN that they're in and the stuff that their so-called mentor is doing. It's like, "Yeah, we went to the grocery store and he paid for all my groceries and I was like thank God because I can't afford to feed my grandma and I gave her the products and she said it made her knee feel better and she's had a bad knee for 20 years." And I'm like, this guy is forcing you to give questionable stuff to your grandma who's going to, of course, tell you what you want to hear in exchange for groceries because you're poor. This is disgusting.

[00:30:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:30:19] Jordan Harbinger: And you know, it's gross.

[00:30:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: And not being able to separate those two things out is also another quality of people who tend to get pulled into scams like this.

[00:30:28] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. MLMs thrive on the idea that when you quit, you're kicked out of any social circle you may have gotten in via the group as well. And they do that because they say, "Oh, you're not on upward trajectory. You're not a winner anymore. You're a hater now, whatever it is." And if any of that sounds familiar, it's because fricking cults do that too. In fact, it's basically the only other type of organization I know that does this. Super strict fundamentalist religions, aka cults, generally, and multilevel marketing scams. That's it. And you can hear the cult thinking here, too. Look, if somebody says, "I don't like yoga or Diet Coke or Apple computers." I'm not going to get defensive about that. I don't care.

[00:31:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:09] Jordan Harbinger: I don't have an emotional attachment to my purchase decisions. I don't do yoga, but I was throwing that out there for you, Gabe. Just in case you didn't pick up on that.

[00:31:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: I appreciate that. Yeah, I do get very defensive about it. So apparently, I'm in a cult but go on. Yeah, carry on.

[00:31:20] Jordan Harbinger: When somebody does get defensive that level of brand loyalty doesn't make a lot of sense.

[00:31:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:31:27] Jordan Harbinger: You know, if somebody says something that's not factual, like yoga is actually bad for you, alright. But if somebody says you shouldn't do it because you're not Hindu or whatever, you're going to be like, that's dumb. I'm not going to engage with that. But when somebody says that about an MLM, they will not have a normal non-emotional reaction to that kind of thing.

[00:31:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:31:42] Jordan Harbinger: This is what a cult does when it sells a product. MLMs encourage this defensiveness because it enforces brand loyalty. And because they need to sell a case of 97-fricking-cent shampoo for $35, 12 times a year to keep the pyramid afloat. And that's why you see people with a bunch of sh*t in their garage after they get out. So my guess is, if she tries to poke holes in the model, show him debunk videos, send him, I don't know, whatever, white papers, whatever, all that articles, he's going to resist. Because this is a business cult reinforced by relationships like the one that he described.

[00:32:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Her best bet is to get around that stuff and to start by talking about the role this organization is playing for him. Like, put the dodgy economics aside, put the propaganda aside, and just talk about why he's so loyal to this organization, to this mentor, what drew him to them, what they're doing for him now, and see if you can slowly, very slowly, help him explore that but you're going to have to be real cool about it. Like make it a peaceful, innocent, open-ended conversation. You just trying to really understand him rather than you trying to steer him to the conclusion you already know is true.

[00:32:51] Jordan Harbinger: Well, she's training to be a therapist, so she's probably pretty well equipped to do that, I would imagine. It's going to be good practice, I guess, if not. The hard part for me would be resisting the urge to go, "I'm 10 times smarter than you because I'm a therapist. Wake up, get the hell out of this stupid predatory cult. Go work for a company that's one a real company in a real business. And that actually cares about its employees and its customers," while shaking him violently.

[00:33:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so tempting to do, but I think you got to try to talk to him about this and gently guide him to this conclusion over time. Or at least guide him to seeing another angle, potentially, on this. Because, yeah, you can let him do his thing and make his own mistakes, and maybe that is what has to happen for him to get to a place where he can really hear you. By the way, very common for people who are caught up in MLM. Sometimes it does have to get really bad.

[00:33:36] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sometimes they have to go three years without making the money they were promised or burning all their relationships in the pursuit of profit from this stuff that doesn't really make sense before they are willing to hear somebody go, "Take a step back. Does any of this seem like it's working?" And only then can they say, "Oh, okay, now I see." But who knows how long that could take if it ever happens. And if you guys ever do make big purchases together or merge your finances—

[00:34:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. Don't do that.

[00:34:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: —or get married. If you get married, the blowback from this will be significantly bigger. And yeah, that is a huge risk to you.

[00:34:09] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. Imagine putting off buying a house because your partner had to spend 15 grand last year on shampoo that is leaking through boxes in your garage. Plenty of examples like this online, by the way, with people standing in their basement with 30,000 worth of moldy ass, rainbow fricking cheetah print leggings with holes in them.

[00:34:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: I knew you were going to bring up the leggings too, I knew it. That's your favorite one.

[00:34:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It is my favorite one.

[00:34:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's your favorite MLM scam.

[00:34:34] Jordan Harbinger: There's also these crappy press on nails from Color Street, I think it's called. They're just so ugly and tacky.

[00:34:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've heard about this.

[00:34:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and it's, ugh.

[00:34:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also to say nothing of what all of this says about your different values and your approaches to this topic, to any conflict where you guys are on opposite sides.

[00:34:49] Jordan Harbinger: Correct. That's what really worries me the most. The money is one thing. It's a huge factor, of course, but she's a therapist in training who sees through this bullsh*t. He's a vulnerable guy who's caught up in an MLM, which is a scam/cult. And I just got to wonder if they're truly compatible if he can't at least acknowledge that she has some good points about MLMs.

[00:35:10] So look, if you really love this guy, fine, work through it. He deserves a real shot for me. I would just never spend the time life's too short to work this hard to get somebody you just remet out of a cult. And if he's this committed to it, it just raises many more fundamental red flags. So I hope your boyfriend can hear you and open up his thinking. I really do. People can change, and your boyfriend is lucky to have you looking out for him. But I would pay very close attention to your boyfriend's signals about how open he is. And be very thoughtful about how you proceed. And look, even if you guys do end up going the distance, and he's decided to be cool about some boundaries with the MLM, like he's not going to solicit friends and family, which I don't think he can keep that promise, but whatever. Do not merge your bank account. Do not even marry him because you will end up taking on debt that he incurs. And just don't. Don't sign on to that. You will regret it. And good luck.

[00:36:06] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes or you're 35 and you still haven't lost your virginity, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:36:27] We also have our Wee Bit Wiser newsletter. It's a bite-sized newsletter with a gem or two from a past episode. I do that every week, right in your inbox. If you want to stay connected to our huge library of past guests and ideas, come and check that out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. It's short, it's punchy, and you can reply to me right from the newsletter with your constructive criticism and/or passive-aggressive nonsense.

[00:36:50] All right, what's next?

[00:36:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I became our mom's caregiver at 14 years old as her MS progressed to a point where she was entirely bedridden. I took care of her as a young teen through several illnesses without any training or support while my younger brother lived with our grandmother. I postponed my university plans to help my brother finish his exams without having to care for our mom. He didn't finish school and left at 17. I eventually finished university and secured a good job, which led to me relocating to Hong Kong where I continued to support my mom and brother. I paid my brother an hourly rate to get a volunteer job to incentivize him to gain work experience, but after paying him for a year, I found out he only went for a few weeks but kept taking my money. I even tried to involve him in my side business, but he let me down so badly I lost a client.

[00:37:42] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.

[00:37:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also tried to help him get healthy, as he said he wanted to drop weight. He's over 200 kilograms, which is 440 pounds. But he didn't follow through. My brother has been my mom's paid caregiver since he was 18 years old, supported by government financing, as well as external daily nurses and outside care support. In my opinion, he spent most of his time playing video games and definitely was not providing the level of care she needed. When he decided he didn't want to be her caregiver anymore, I supported his decision, offering help with finding a job or getting an education, but he didn't take any action. He struggles with severe depression, anxiety, and self-harm. I was so concerned for his well-being, I paid for extensive private mental health support, but progress is worryingly slow. I feel for him as I've had depression to the point of a suicide attempt in the past. Two years ago, I had to stop supporting them financially due to personal challenges, including being diagnosed with MS myself, leaving an abusive relationship, and being made redundant twice. I have, however, continued to cover his psychologist. Then, earlier this year, our mom passed away unexpectedly. I've had to take charge of everything while my brother has shut down. I found out that our mom had debt against the house and I've had to spend most of my savings on that, funeral expenses and house repairs. I've offered to rent out the house and let my brother keep the proceeds for a year to visit his girlfriend in the US for a few months to figure out his life, but he doesn't want to rent it because he's attached to the house. Also, selling the house would cause him to lose government support and mental health aid. His share of the money wouldn't last long. And he wouldn't have a place to live. I don't want to leave him homeless, but I can't support him. I only have about four to five months of savings left myself. I want my brother to step up and take responsibility for his life, but I don't know how to make him understand. My friend suggests letting him figure it out on his own, but I worry about adding to his abandonment issues. I genuinely want the best for my brother, but I'm struggling to find a solution that works for both of us. Please help me. I'm at a total loss. Signed, A Burned Out Caretaker and Driven Moneymaker Trying to Play Peacemaker With This Lifelong Handout Taker.

[00:40:02] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man, damn, I just really want to give you a hug right now. This is just making my heart absolutely ache for you.

[00:40:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Same here.

[00:40:09] Jordan Harbinger: So terrible. First of all, I am so sorry to hear about this childhood you had. This is really tragic stuff. Your mom's MS, the fact that you became her caretaker at 14. I mean, 14! While your brother generally had it on easy street from the sound of it. I mean, he's got his own mental health issues, but generally, he wasn't put in any position to take responsibility. You then postponed your life to make things easier on him. The emotional and financial burden you've taken on for years now to help him as an adult. Then, you end up with your own MS diagnosis which must be incredibly intense. MS is no joke. I've got friends with it who manage it and they seem to be doing well, but a degenerative disease is no picnic any way you slice it. You've really painted a picture here of a person who has sacrificed a lot for her family—

[00:40:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] Jordan Harbinger: —who's assumed the role of caretaker in almost every conceivable way and whose chief purpose seems to be to prioritize other people's needs, especially your brother's, above her own.

[00:41:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:41:09] Jordan Harbinger: You have a huge heart, you have a hell of a lot of stamina, that is obvious. But I'm also hearing a lot of stress and anxiety and sadness in your letter. And they tell me that all of these well-intentioned strategies to save your brother, they've actually come at a huge cost to you.

[00:41:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:26] Jordan Harbinger: So I'm going to be very direct with you. You need to really look at this dynamic with your brother, and you need to find a better way of taking care of him and yourself. You've been protecting him since you were a child. I'm assuming that somewhere along the way, you got the message that you had to do that, maybe from mom, maybe from your family, maybe from your environment. But either way, you walk around with an emotional mandate that says, put brother first. Save brother because he can't or won't save himself. Never give up on him. I got to pause to acknowledge. Your brother has not acted responsibly. Nor fairly here, at all.

[00:42:04] You postponed your university plans to take care of your mom so he could do well in school. He dropped out. You paid him to get a volunteer job, essentially became his patron. He quits after a few weeks and pockets the money for a year. Lies and stole from you. You brought him into your business to give him a pity job. He damages the business. You try to get him healthy. He doesn't want to, or at least he makes no effort to do so. And now, you really need him after your mom has passed away, he shuts down while also insisting that you keep him in the house so he doesn't lose his welfare check because he likes living where he is and doesn't want change, while you're on the brink of going broke?

[00:42:46] Now, I feel for him because I'm just guessing that he's in a lot of pain and confusion. He doesn't have a lot of inner resources to take care of himself. But hearing me say those facts back to you, what about your brother suggests that he deserves more of your financial support, more of your encouragement, and more of your sacrifice?

[00:43:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:43:08] Jordan Harbinger: What has your brother done to show you that he even values your investments in him at all? That he's honored your help by using it to improve his life, or that he will do so in the future. What is this impulse to continue protecting him all about? And what would happen to you if you didn't protect him? These are the questions you need to be asking yourself, and I would really sit with them and answer them honestly. Your relationship with your brother, I'm just going to say it, this is dysfunctional, it's unfair, and now it's unsustainable. If you don't make a change here, I think you're going to be setting yourself up for serious problems down the road, financially, of course, but also emotionally, physically. You've got a disease of yourself you've got to take care of. These stakes, they're just very high.

[00:43:53] Gabe, am I being cruel here, or is this brother just a complete sponge, regardless of his reasons for being a sponge?

[00:44:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am with you all the way, your brother has a lot of work to do, a lot of work. But, you know, so do you, and a lot of your work revolves around rewriting this old script that has made you responsible for him in ways that are profoundly unfair to you and ultimately unhelpful to him. You want your brother to step up and take responsibility for his life. You want him to understand, and he should. But if that's true for him, it's also true for you. You need to step up and take responsibility for your life, which in many ways you've not been doing despite all of your hard work and your objective success because you've been working so hard to take care of him, which has compromised you pretty significantly. And which, ironically, has made it much, much harder for him to step up and take responsibility, which is precisely what you want.

[00:44:52] So, the two of you have very cleverly created a situation where the very thing you say you want is kind of impossible. And I imagine that you both benefit from that outcome in different ways. He gets to kick back and not do a ton from the sound of it, and you get to be the sister who's more successful, who's the good sibling, who maybe has a reason to avoid looking at some difficult stuff of her own, including how you're going to take care of yourself, especially with this new MS diagnosis. Because look, over here is this brother who, you know, really needs me. So I'm going to focus on that and I'm not going to focus on all this other stuff that's more important right now for me.

[00:45:30] I'm also guessing that giving up on helping your brother would feel very painful, aside from what it would do to him. You have a lot invested in him getting better. Maybe pulling back would feel like failure or abandonment, like you said, and you would have to confront a lot of feelings that you've avoided by continuing to prop him up. And this is a theme, by the way, we hear on the show all the time, people who write in about wanting to save siblings or spouses or friends, and it's like, "I've tried for 10, 15 years to get them to do this, to get healthy, to start a new relationship, to cut ties with this terrible person, and if I gave up, I don't know what I would do," and it's like, yeah, you'd confront that you failed, and you'd have to confront that you're ultimately helpless, and those are very difficult feelings, and sometimes they're worse, actually, than watching the person struggle on their own.

[00:46:18] And so, I think your friends are right. You have to let him figure this out on his own. You might add to whatever abandonment issues he has, but those are his abandonment issues, and you cramping around them, even now, that's just one more form of caretaking that I do think you need to look at. Because like Jordan said, the cost now is just way too high.

[00:46:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you put that pretty well. I'm also specifically angry that this guy who refuses to take care of himself gets to go to therapy every week because of her and government assistance while she has to struggle through all of this without support because she's funneling money to his sorry ass. It's just the entitlement drives me insane. I know he's depressed, he's got his own issues, but—

[00:47:03] Soundbite: Come on, man! [Joe Biden]

[00:47:04] Jordan Harbinger: But to your point, Gabe, that's a situation that they co-authored. So, look, what we're talking about here goes back a long time, it's very complex, and I know it's very difficult to rewrite these templates, but it's time. Your brother has shown you who he is and who he wants to be from here out, at least for the foreseeable future. You have a very real responsibility to take care of yourself now. You don't need to be cruel. You don't have to take pleasure in selling the house or forcing him to get a job or figure his life out. And I don't think you will. But you don't have to save him at every turn either. You can't. You don't have that luxury anymore.

[00:47:39] So, have some tough conversations. Do what you need to do to make sure you're showing up for yourself. Continue supporting your brother appropriately from afar, probably not financially or anything like that, and trust that all of this is more than okay. That's how it should be. I know how hard this is going to be, but you can do it, and I wish you good luck.

[00:48:00] And Gabe, I think we also need to warn her, he's going to push back hard.

[00:48:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:48:04] Jordan Harbinger: I won't say he's had a cushy life, because he's obviously suffering as well. You're pulling the rug out from under him. At least, that's how he's going to feel.

[00:48:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course.

[00:48:11] Jordan Harbinger: So he's going to pull out every survival trick to get you to keep supporting him, to keep the house, to keep him living where he is. I mean, this is a guy who's afraid and has sounds like nothing going for him.

[00:48:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yup.

[00:48:22] Jordan Harbinger: So he's not going to make it easy for you.

[00:48:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's going to have to bear his anger and his fear and whatever tactics he pulls to keep things as they were. And that is maybe going to be the hardest part. So, yeah, be ready for that. And if you need some help from other people, friends to stay strong through that, please look for that because that's what would trip most people up.

[00:48:40] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. He's going to push every button that he knows is there, right? You're being selfish. You something, something with mom and you know, he's going to pull everything because he knows you really well. So he's going to push all those buttons and just know that that is his survival strategy and has virtually nothing to do with reality. He's just trying to stay where he is comfortable, which is in this miserable place that he's in right now.

[00:49:02] All right. You know, what's a far better investment than a deadbeat sibling, Gabriel? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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[00:50:17] This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. So we used to travel a lot for podcast interviews and conferences, and we love staying in Airbnbs because we often meet interesting people and the stays are just more unique and fun. One of our favorite places to stay at in LA. It's with a sweet, older couple whose kids have moved out. They have a granny flat in their backyard. We used to stay there all the time. We were regulars, always booking their Airbnb when we flew down for interviews. And we loved it because they'd leave a basket of snacks, sometimes a bottle of wine, even a little note for us. And they would leave us freshly baked banana bread because they knew that I liked it. And they even became listeners of this podcast, which is how they knew about the banana bread. So after our house was built, we decided to become hosts ourselves, turning one of our spare bedrooms into an Airbnb. Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, "Hey, this seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb." It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place while you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Perhaps you get a fantastic vacation plan for the balmy days of summer. As you're out there soaking up the sun and making memories, your house doesn't need to sit idle. Turn it into an Airbnb. Let it be a vacation home for somebody else. And picture this, your little one isn't so little anymore. They're headed off to college this fall. The echo in their now empty bedroom might be a little too much to bear. So, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

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[00:52:17] Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:52:21] All right, next up.

[00:52:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My fiancée and I have been together for four years and our wedding will be next year. She's always struggled with her self-worth and doesn't see herself as the extremely smart, beautiful, kind, and overall amazing person that she is. As we get closer to our wedding, this has been getting worse. She keeps asking if we can hire an actress so she doesn't have to be there and take photos.

[00:52:47] Jordan Harbinger: Wait, wait, wait. For her own wedding?

[00:52:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: For her own wedding.

[00:52:51] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I wasn't sure I understood because I've never heard of that before.

[00:52:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's also asked how much it would take for her to just not be there because, and I quote, "Everyone has their price, so what's yours?"

[00:53:04] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, okay, this is pathologically insecure. I can't tell if she's kidding about the not being at her own wedding thing, but it sounds like she means it.

[00:53:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: On some level. Right?

[00:53:14] Jordan Harbinger: Carry on, I guess? Wow, this is very bizarre.

[00:53:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know, it is a bit weird. Okay, so the letter goes on.

[00:53:19] We're going to her best friend's wedding soon, which she's a bridesmaid in, and she doesn't want to go anymore because if she's there, she will quote, "Ruin all the photos, and she doesn't want to do that to them," unquote. I said her friend would be heartbroken if she didn't go, but she doesn't believe me. I love my fiancée with all my heart. I always try to comfort her and tell her how beautiful she is every day. All I want is for her to see herself as I see her. What would you do in this situation? How can I help her more? Signed, A Worried Groom, Helping His Doom and Gloom Bride Rebloom.

[00:53:54] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is pretty heavy, man. I feel really sad for your fiancée. She obviously has some severe self-esteem issues and probably some intense anxiety, and they're just causing her to pull away from life and hide and miss these precious moments. And I'm also a little sad for you. You really love her, you're working very hard to prop her up and help her see herself more clearly, and she can't take that in, which puts you in a really tough place. Gabe, I'm a little unclear about what's so distressing to his fiancée. It sounds like she's anxious, okay, about the two weddings, specifically about the photos.

[00:54:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm hmm.

[00:54:30] Jordan Harbinger: But, is that just superficial insecurity, like she doesn't like how she looks, or is this something more fundamental, like, "I'm unworthy of being in someone's photos, and nobody really wants me there anyway, and I'm just going to ruin the day anyway, so I'm just going to stay home and cry in my pajamas instead"?

[00:54:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, unclear. Obviously, the photos are especially fraught for her. For some reason, maybe she is extremely self-conscious or she has like a wildly miscalibrated opinion about how she appears. But I get the sense that this goes beyond how she's going to look in the wedding album.

[00:55:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:55:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm very interested in this detail. He shared that when he told her, "Hey, your best friend would be heartbroken if you didn't go to her wedding and you're a bridesmaid in it." She didn't believe him.

[00:55:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that stood out to me too. Like, you don't realize that your best friend is going to be bummed that you refused to attend her wedding? That you're a bridesmaid in?

[00:55:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:55:21] Jordan Harbinger: What is ha — what?

[00:55:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what makes me think that this goes deeper. It sounds like it's very hard for her to believe that other people love and care about her genuinely, that people want her and need her in their big moments, and that's true both of her best friend and her fiance.

[00:55:37] Jordan Harbinger: You know, now, I'm wondering if maybe she's wrestling with something more profound here. Some real hopelessness and despair and just a general, "I don't want to, and it doesn't matter, and who cares." Something more in the territory of depression than anxiety.

[00:55:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I know what you're saying. And our friend here might not even understand exactly what's going on here or how severe it is because we're talking about a woman whose impulse right now is to hide.

[00:56:00] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: To pull away.

[00:56:02] Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah, she's dealing with a lot and it sounds like she's not really leaning into it.

[00:56:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Leaning into it or inviting somebody else into it to help her understand it. And she doesn't want to be photographed. She doesn't want to be seen. It's a great metaphor.

[00:56:14] Jordan Harbinger: I've wondered if you're going to pick up on that. I'm like, this is so Gabe's like screenwriting stuff coming in here. And that makes it even harder to reach her. So your fiancée has some very fundamental things to explore here. And I think the wedding is an excellent reason to start. Obviously, the best place to do that, probably the only place, is, surprise surprise, therapy. If I were you, I would start encouraging her to explore all of this with a professional ASAP. Self-worth issues this extreme, plus anxiety, plus depression, plus the identity stuff, this all goes back a long way. This is not a new development, they take time to unpack and time to heal, so she's got to start now.

[00:56:51] If I were her, I would literally walk into my first session like, "I'm freaking out about these weddings, I hate being photographed, it all makes me want to drop out and avoid life, I need to understand why." And not hide the ball, don't bury the lead, follow that thread wherever it leads. Selfishly, if I'm in your shoes, I would want my partner to be working on this stuff before we got married. Not just because, you know, it might be nice to have my wife in our wedding photos.

[00:57:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's always a plus I hear when you're having a wedding.

[00:57:18] Jordan Harbinger: Call me crazy, but it would be nice to have both people at the wedding. Can you even imagine explaining why the groom is on the altar and the bride is FaceTiming in from the couch with the curtains drawn, mumbling I do while she hides her face from the officiant, or why the bride is an actress and not actually your wife? That is just a bizarre scenario. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but holy smokes, this is such a weird thing to even think about.

[00:57:44] The other reason, of course, that you need to get this handled is all of this is going to be a recurring theme in your relationship. It's not like after the wedding, she's going to be like, "Oh, good. I was really nervous about that, but now everything is totally fine and this is never going to happen again."

[00:57:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:57:57] Jordan Harbinger: I think you want to know now that your fiancée is going to be healthy and happy and present. In your marriage.

[00:58:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also that she's the kind of person who would want to work on herself. If that's important to you, too.

[00:58:09] Jordan Harbinger: Right, look, I think it's great that you build her up so much. That's very sweet. She's lucky to have you. But she doesn't believe you because if she did, well, she would believe you and act accordingly. But the real work here, she's got to do this on her own. By the way, side note here, if you're going to have kids, do you want their mother to teach them through example that they are not good enough to show up in their own lives?

[00:58:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:58:31] Jordan Harbinger: Because that is what she is going to teach them until she gets this handled.

[00:58:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:58:35] Jordan Harbinger: So that's something to think about. And we're wishing you the best. I hope your wedding goes great and that, you know, you're both present and accounted for on the happy day. And I hope your fiancée is in a very different place by then. In fact, I would maybe make sure that the wedding doesn't happen until she is. By different place, I mean the place next to you when you guys take photos and cut the cake and dance and all that. But also that inner place.

[00:58:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: The inner place too. Yeah.

[00:58:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. So we're sending both of you a very big hug.

[00:58:59] All right, what's next?

[00:59:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in high school, and I've been wanting to study abroad for a while now. I understand that it would be hard to send your kid off to another country for a semester, and I can see why my parents would be reluctant to let me go, but this has been my dream for a long time. I love to learn about different cultures, people, and ancient history, and there isn't much of that here in the States. I also love to learn French, and being around the language would help me become better with my language studies. I'm willing to work hard to make this happen. I thought that raising the money would be the hardest part, but now I don't know if my dad will give me permission to go. I find it very difficult to talk to my parents, even though they're amazing parents who love and support me. They've never done anything to make me afraid of talking to them. I'm just terrified of being rejected and not being able to fulfill my dream. I've done all the research I can about this. I know it's safe and doable, but I don't know how to bring this up with my dad and convince him. Do you have any advice for having this conversation? How do I work up the courage? And how do I deal with the fact that I might not be able to do this? Signed, A Not-So Squeaky Wheel, Still Hoping to Get The Grease.

[01:00:12] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, before I dive in, I'm a little disappointed you didn't make a pun about France in the sign-off or French food. That's not really what I wanted to say before I dive in. Before I dive in, I just want to say this is a great question because I think it's something that all of us wrestle with at every age, including me, summoning the courage to take a risk and ask for what we want, whether it's an opportunity or a favor or an experience. And knowing how to respond, whether the news is good or bad. You're a high school student who wants to study abroad, but I want to share some ideas that apply just as much to an adult who's struggling to put themselves out there for something they really care about.

[01:00:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:00:49] Jordan Harbinger: So, first of all, I love this dream of yours. You're exactly the kind of person who's going to get a ton out of a study-abroad experience like this. You're smart. You're curious, you're thoughtful, you're mature, you sound like a great person, I want you to do everything you can to make that happen. As you probably know, I did this in high school when I studied abroad in the former East Germany. It changed the course of my life in many ways, so I'm extra pumped about this for you. And the great news is, you already kind of have the script for this conversation pretty much down. The way you framed this for us, that you understand it would be hard to send your kid off to another country for a semester, but that this is your dream for all these brilliant reasons that you're willing to work hard to make it happen, I really can't think of a better way to tee that conversation up. If my child said this to me, I would have to take it seriously.

[01:01:42] What you need to do to really make it land is a few things. First, you got to be passionate. Don't hold back on your excitement. Your excitement is the pitch. I wouldn't play that down to protect yourself. I would lean into it and help your parents see how much this means to you, how you're going to make the most of this gift that they're offering you. Second, you've got to present your case in a way that puts them at ease. I would anticipate their questions, their objections, their concerns, and get out in front of those with all the great research that you've done, which it sounds like you're already doing this.

[01:02:13] Gabe, I think if this person can get school credit for language and other stuff like that while abroad, I think that's going to help because it sort of says, hey, this is going to pay for itself and get me closer to a goal. I'm sure your parents are behind you graduating. And I know people can also work while abroad at hotels or hostels or restaurants. That'll help pay for the experience. So it might not just be a money issue. It might be more of a scared parents issue, but this will then at least narrow down to that objection because you'll say, "I'll work beforehand, get a bunch of money, continue working there, get a bunch of money." Maybe you get a loan from your parents. Maybe you don't even need one. And the last thing I would approach your parents more as collaborators in this dream rather than, well, what they are kind of are, which is gatekeepers. I mean, yes, it's their money possibly, but I would also approach them more like, "This experience would mean the world to me and I want to figure out how to make it work together," rather than, "This experience would mean the world to me, please let me do it." That's going to change the whole tone of this conversation.

[01:03:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:03:14] Jordan Harbinger: But what I'm most interested in here and Gabe, tell me if you're with me on this, what seems to be the biggest obstacle is the fear that she has around talking to her parents that really came through.

[01:03:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's really the big theme of this letter. Like you said, you're terrified of being rejected, of not being able to fulfill your dream. So, yeah, let's talk about that because what happens when you want something really badly is that longing comes with a fellow traveler, which is fear, right? Like the desire and the fear are kind of two sides of the same coin. Your desire to have this adventure, the study-abroad experience, is enlivening and inspiring. It's obviously very meaningful to you. And the thought of not being able to have it fills you with fear and dread and some premature sadness, which makes a lot of sense. So you avoid bringing this up with your parents because as soon as you do, you risk getting back a response that you're going to be disappointed by. And that can be very painful, especially for someone as passionate as you.

[01:04:12] Also, by the way, someone who loves French. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say you're probably a very sensitive, romantic person. You want to, like, study in Paris or Lyon or whatever and you wear cool clothes and read good books in the park and all that glamorous French ish. I totally get it. But that's how it works, right? We don't get one without the other. There is no success without the risk of disappointment. And there's no joy without the risk of being hurt. It's just like, them's the rules. I got to tell you, a lot of people, maybe most people, live their whole lives not chasing what they want because that pain that you're confronting now is just too great. It's easier for them to be angry or bored or like dead inside. to not have the thing they truly want than to put themselves in a position to risk being disappointed. You know, self-protection is the most natural thing in the world, but it's also one of the most dangerous games that a human being can play.

[01:05:05] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. I want that tattooed on my forearm. But that risk, there's no way around it.

[01:05:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:05:11] Jordan Harbinger: It's table stakes for living the life that you want. And as cheesy as this sounds, it's the only way to really be alive. And I kind of hate that I just said that, but it's true.

[01:05:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree with you.

[01:05:21] Jordan Harbinger: I'm going to be unusually prescriptive here and tell you to bring this beautiful dream of yours to your parents. Ask them what it'll take to make it happen, and it's okay if you're nervous, it's okay if your pitch isn't perfect. What matters is that you speak really from the heart here. Tell them why this experience is going to mean so much to you and what you really want to do with it. I have a strong feeling they're going to say yes.

[01:05:43] My parents did not want to let me go abroad either, but I really like didn't let it go. I was respectful about it, told them all the benefits. I even called the exchange company. It was like, how do I sell this to my parents? And they gave me ideas too, because they got skin in the game as well, right? They're taking a few grand off the top of that fee, I'm sure.

[01:06:00] But the bigger reason I want you to do this. is that I want you to teach yourself how to ask for what you want, starting now. This could be the first request that puts you on a path to a big, exciting, and fulfilling life, where you'll have to have versions of this same conversation many, many times. And I don't want you to have to work up to that. I want you to learn how to do this right now. So good luck, I hope your parents hear you, and if they can't or they say no, write us in again. We'll brainstorm some new ideas to have experiences similar to this. We don't have to give up. But also, just have a little bit of faith that your parents are going to respond to you in the way that you hope. Not to go all like, this is Gabriel's department, the yoga manifestation stuff here, right? But sometimes, just assuming people are going to say no is the best way to ensure that they actually say no.

[01:06:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:06:49] Jordan Harbinger: And by the way, for anybody listening right now facing a similar situation, whether it's asking for more responsibility at work, or telling a friend you need some help, or taking a chance and telling somebody how you really feel, whatever you are going through, everything I've shared with this young person, that makes me feel old saying that, applies to you too. And I'm actually speaking to myself right now because I need this reminder from time to time as well. No risk, no reward, and the courage to have these conversations, it's less a matter of bravery and more a matter of vulnerability, which as the old wisdom goes, is the real courage, not the absence of fear, but the willingness to act in spite of it.

[01:07:29] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to go and check out the episodes from this week. Juan Zarate on the US financial system and how we use it against terrorists and rogue states, Caroline Rose on Captagon, the drug taking over the Middle East, and a Skeptical Sunday on targeted advertising.

[01:07:47] Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023. So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, Podcast Addict is a good one, Castbox. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts. The Stitcher app is going away, folks.

[01:08:06] The best things that have happened to me in my life and business have come through my network and circle of those. I know, like, and trust all around me. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our Six-Minute Networking course. It's a free course. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig the well before you're thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Again, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[01:08:30] Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show are all at jordanharbinger.com/deals or ask our AI chatbot at jordanharbinger.com/ai. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me up on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:08:53] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:09:26] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with the investigator who solved a serial killer case that had gone cold for decades.

[01:09:34] Paul Holes: There was a definite spike in serial predator crime in the 1970s. Part of it was the ready victim pools that don't exist today. Houses generally didn't have alarm systems. We don't see women hitchhiking much today. Joe D'Angelo was a full-time law enforcement officer. He's breaking into houses in the middle of the night, raping women or girls that are home alone that he's binding up and sexually assaulting. He ended up committing 50 of these attacks in Northern California between 1976 and 1979 and just disappeared. I started working that case in 1994.

[01:10:14] As a cold case investigator, even though the case is 30 years old, it's like, no, you know, this is still a public safety issue. We need to remove this offender from society. And in 2001, 10 people had been killed across six cases. I'm seeing this woman's body laying inside her house and the photos of her alive on the shelf above her body. She battled for her life, and I could see this combat go throughout that entire room.

[01:10:44] Jordan Harbinger: After the Golden State Killer raped some of his victims, he would crouch in the corner and cry.

[01:10:49] Paul Holes: They said he was sobbing, you know, it was like genuine. In fact, one victim, he was sobbing while he was raping her. The last thing I did in my career before I retired was I drove up and parked in front of his house. I debated, should I just go knock on his door? I didn't know he was the Golden State Killer, but this was such a brazen, brutal predator, he absolutely had to be caught.

[01:11:15] Jordan Harbinger: To learn more about how Paul Holes puts himself inside the minds of serial killers, check out episode 725 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.