778: Custody Depends on Testimony Against Old Friend | Feedback Friday

778: Custody Depends on Testimony Against Old Friend | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Peloton for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:00:08] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my comrade in kibitzing, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:41] If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of incredible people, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. And this week we had Dr. Kevin Dutton. He is a psychopath expert, and this is a two-part episode. We're talking about what makes a psychopath, the psychopath test, some elements of psychopathy that were pretty surprising, and how you can use magnets basically to turn yourself into a psychopath. An experiment I may run on myself, not that I need any more of that, but we'll see how it goes. Make sure you've had a listen to everything we created for you here this week.

[00:01:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Before we dive in today, Jordan, a little update. We got a letter, another letter from the crossdressing guy who wrote in a few weeks back.

[00:01:27] Jordan Harbinger: Did he tell us what he was wearing though? That's the important part of those emails.

[00:01:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sadly, he did not tell us what his wardrobe was when he wrote the book.

[00:01:35] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, what a cliffhanger.

[00:01:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. Such a disappointment. But anyway, for those of you who didn't catch this one, a guy wrote in with an absolutely wildlife story. So he's a crossdresser. He had an affair with another guy. He's married to a woman.

[00:01:49] Jordan Harbinger: And he's like 73 years old though.

[00:01:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, the guy, he had an affair with, ended up dying from COVID. He grieved this guy in private. His son had walked in on him crossdressing when he was young, and then they tragically lost that son to an overdose. And then, they found out later that the son was a crossdresser, and he and his wife were struggling to work through all of that. There was a lot going on in this letter. That was episode 753, by the way, if you want to give it a listen.

[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And his main question was, "What do I do with my collection of lingerie? Do I destroy my clothes before they destroy me?" It's like skipping over all the important stuff. But what do I do with my clothes?

[00:02:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. And also, "I can't wear my wife's clothes because they're so boring and plain." That was my favorite part of the letter.

[00:02:29] Jordan Harbinger: Well, they have different taste.

[00:02:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, and our response was basically, "My dude, the clothes are the least of your problems."

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:02:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: "You're sitting on all of these huge secrets. You might want to think about opening up about, you know, what you've been through." So after the episode aired, he wrote us again and he said—

[00:02:43] Thanks for highlighting my letter. Your comments were accurate and insightful. I did not realize that I am a locked box. That takes a lot of attention to keep each side separate. A useful analogy describing how my secrets are stressors in my life. I thought maybe my son seeing me crossdressing gave him the idea/permission that it was an okay thing to do. I don't really know why that guy and I had our affair. Neither one of us felt that we were gay or bi. We were only into each other. Go figure. By the way, after I wrote in, I asked my wife if it was okay to wear her old panties, and she said, "Okay. But no to bras." I like the selection of links in the show notes, but I did not get the audio at six minutes in. Signed, Content in the Closet.

[00:03:27] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Well, that pretty much fits with the original letter, doesn't it?

[00:03:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: It does sound like he's determined to stay a lockbox. Yeah.

[00:03:35] Jordan Harbinger: It's kind of a bummer. I was hoping he'd realize he's been hanging onto all this and decide to open up, but I know that it's a tall order at 70-something years old. It's probably very scary for him to fully come out at this point. There's just, it's too much at risk.

[00:03:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: On the plus side, though, he does get to wear his wife's underwear now, so I guess that's the win.

[00:03:53] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, that is a win. At least she's somewhat accepting of him now, except I'm puzzled by the, "you can wear my panties, but not my bras." Like, is it not weirder to wear your wife's panties than it is to wear her bras? I would've thought the other way around for sure.

[00:04:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not really clear on the logic there. Maybe because the bras are more visible. Is that what he means? Like if they go to the market together, no one would know that he is wearing her old thong but if he's wearing a bra, people are going to stare. I don't know.

[00:04:18] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, it could be. I mean, I suppose that part might make some sense. I'm not really clear on a lot of this guy's life, to be honest, but hey, it's his life, his marriage, at least he and his wife are talking about this. She's accepting him to some degree. The audio, by the way, that was six minutes in, that's Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. He does some sort of crossdressing in the movie, and he says, "It rubs the lotion on its skin." Oh, actually, he says, "It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again." And I—

[00:04:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:04:47] Jordan Harbinger: I think he's talking about—

[00:04:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're killing your impression right there.

[00:04:48] Jordan Harbinger: It's kind of, he does that weird, fake, low voice, and I think he's talking about—

[00:04:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, a fake, low voice, yeah.

[00:04:52] Jordan Harbinger: —the suit of skin that he creates from his murder victims, which is whatever. The sound bite was a dumb joke. Just having a little laugh here. We don't think that you're turning people into a lampshade or anything. It's just where my mind went when Gabe read the letter. Like I said during the episode, more of a me problem.

[00:05:09] Anyway, interesting update. Thank you for sharing it. I'm sure it was a lot to take in, but I really do hope that you find the support that you need, you and your wife. And again, I appreciate you being so vulnerable with us. I know that this cannot be easy. It just means a lot. And yet another thing that differentiates you from Buffalo Bill.

[00:05:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, good point. Not a very vulnerable serial killer.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: No, no, generally not. As always, we've got some fun ones, some doozies. Can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:05:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. A little over a year ago, my best friend of 10 years revealed that she's gay. She sought a divorce from her husband and moved into another home with a woman she had only known a few months. A year later, she was engaged to the new girlfriend.

[00:05:51] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:05:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I tried to maintain a close relationship with my friend, but I really didn't understand her decision to trust a person she barely knew with her money and her children. I walked the tightrope of being a good listener while not engaging or encouraging her in trashing her ex, the father of her children, whom I've always known as a pretty standup guy. During their marriage, he had to deal with finding her after several suicide attempts, rushing her to the ER, and taking a lot of responsibility for caring for their kids before she began her recovery. Recently, she made the decision to sue him for full custody and has filed a number of accusations against him. Many can be refuted with proof and some are moments where he wasn't his best self, but he admitted it, apologized for it, and worked to do better. When she decided to sue him for full custody, she understood my desire to remain neutral, but also told me she couldn't hang out with me anymore because she, quote, "Needed to be around people that were fully on my side," unquote. Her ex has now asked me to testify as a character witness at the custody trial. She's told me some stories about him that are concerning, but I don't know if I believe them. My observations have been that he's incredibly patient with her and that he takes good care of his kids, but I'm afraid I owe it to my friend not to testify because we had a friendship based on deep trust and candor where we shared things we wouldn't want exposed. And I'm afraid that testifying might violate that trust. On the other hand, I don't have any problem saying that her ex doesn't deserve to lose joint custody. I believe he should continue to have his parenting time with his kids. What should I do? Signed, Comply and Testify or Standby Tongue Tied While This Whole Trial Goes Awry.

[00:07:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow. Tongue tied, indeed, this is a sad story. It's a very tough situation to be in just as a friend.

[00:07:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:07:40] Jordan Harbinger: Caught between these two people not knowing how involved you should get in their affairs. So first of all, I just got to say this woman, she sounds like a real piece of work.

[00:07:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: I guess I have some compassion for her because she's obviously wrestling with some very intense mental health struggles. I'm glad she's finally working on those. That's great news. But you've painted a picture of somebody who frankly sounds quite unstable, sounds impulsive, sounds kind of reckless.

[00:08:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm.

[00:08:06] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm not even talking about her coming out and dating a woman. That's fine. Her orientation is honestly beside the point. But to move your kids into a new person's home after just a few months, and then you're engaged a year later, it does seem fast. And now, she's punishing her ex and suing for full custody for reasons that aren't totally clear and might even be all kind of fabricated. So, yeah, I feel for this guy, he might lose his kids to this woman, and he might not have even done the things that she said he did.

[00:08:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or look, maybe they're both out of their freaking tree and this whole marriage was just a hot mess for both of them. I mean, that's possible too, right?

[00:08:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, yeah, they could both be to blame here. Maybe they bring out the worst in each other. Although from what the letter writer shared, it really does sound like he's the more stable parent here, according to the letter writer.

[00:08:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:08:52] Jordan Harbinger: That's all we got, right?

[00:08:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: It does. Yeah.

[00:08:54] Jordan Harbinger: And he puts that — that puts you, in the position of having to decide whether to step up and vouch for this guy. So here's what I'm thinking.

[00:09:02] First of all, this bind you're in between wanting to help him and wanting to honor the terms of the friendship you had with your friend, I can appreciate that conflict. I'm not sure how much of a bind that really is because you're no longer really friends with this woman. That was her choice. When you decided to stay neutral, which I think was a fair decision, given the fact available to you, she cut you off. She couldn't tolerate a friend who wasn't a hundred percent behind her in a situation, which at a minimum, I think it's fair to say, somewhat ambiguous. And look, if that's what she needed to do, fine. That's her right. But that kind of "black and white, all or nothing" thinking that might be part of this woman's mental health stuff and just her general worldview.

[00:09:44] And that's part of the problem as well. Because here you are going, "Eh, hang on a minute. You both bear some responsibility here. Didn't work out. You both deserve to be in your kids' lives. I'm not sure. This is as clear cut as you think," and she's going, "Well, if you're not a hundred percent behind me, we can't even be friends. I need to be around people who are fully on my side." And I think that says a lot about her.

[00:10:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:06] Jordan Harbinger: So from where I'm sitting, this woman has changed the terms of your friendship. And I know it's tricky. That's sort of a lawyerly thing to say. I get it. But I know it's tricky because she shared things with you in confidence when you guys were still close and you want to honor that, which says a lot about you. But now her ex and her children might suffer in a huge way if you don't speak up. And I feel that that sort of trumps the tacit confidentiality of a questionable friendship that no longer even exists.

[00:10:36] Gabe, is that fair? Am I being too callous here?

[00:10:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. First of all, that JD really paying off in this question.

[00:10:42] Jordan Harbinger: Finally.

[00:10:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So lawyerly, okay. No, but—

[00:10:45] Jordan Harbinger: Good, $168,000 well spent. You're welcome.

[00:10:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Worth everybody.

[00:10:49] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:10:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're making a very fair point. Look, just being practical here, standing up for this guy in a terrible situation. I do think that trumps the, "We said things to each other in confidence and I can't violate that trust," thing so maybe a better way to think about this is if you didn't testify and this woman ended up getting full custody of the kids and her ex could barely see them, would you be happy you stayed out of it or would you wish you had agreed to testify?

[00:11:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, good little test there, Gabriel. And that's something only she can answer for herself, but I know if this was me, I'd be in the courtroom spilling all the dang tea, filling in some much-needed gaps. I just couldn't sleep at night knowing I saved this guy's relationship with his children. But I just, I don't know. I didn't have the guts to do it.

[00:11:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: The only wrinkle for me is how reliable these narrators are. Obviously, her ex-friend, not a reliable narrator. In fact, she seems, I mean, look, we're going off of her letter.

[00:11:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:11:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: But it sounds like she's blatantly making things up to get what she wants. But how reliable of a narrator her ex-husband is also a little unclear because he obviously has his agenda here. He's probably not telling her all this stuff he might have done in his worst moments. And our friend here, she wasn't with this family every second of every day. She might have seen him be patient with the ex and great with the kids, but who knows what happened behind closed doors? Nobody knows. And as we know, crazy people can easily keep up appearances to the outside world, and you would never.

[00:12:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, fair point. I'm actually a huge pain in the ass behind closed doors. So I tend to agree. You can just ask Jen.

[00:12:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Big monster. Famously a monster.

[00:12:26] Jordan Harbinger: Famously just a horrible person. Yeah. But, just to zoom way out here for a moment, even if this guy didn't always act as well as he should have, and again we don't know what that even means. We don't know if he snapped at his ex-wife a few times or if he pushed her or what. Obviously, if he was truly abusive, that changes the math here.

[00:12:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:12:45] Jordan Harbinger: But if this guy was just kind of a mess while his wife was in and out of the ER and struggling to get a grip on her life.

[00:12:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:12:51] Jordan Harbinger: It's somewhat understandable.

[00:12:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:12:52] Jordan Harbinger: And it doesn't change the fact that he's the more stable parent here and he still deserves to be in his kids' lives. And maybe because I'm a father and I can sort of imagine how utterly heartbreaking it would be to not see my kids very much if my ex took them away for literally no good reason, like actually no good reason. I think that's what matters most here.

[00:13:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Fair point.

[00:13:12] Jordan Harbinger: So, again, not knowing all the inside baseball in what this guy did or didn't do. That's our take. I think you have to step up here and testify. If I were this guy, I would really hope my friends would stand by me and speak up because this decision is really important and it's going to impact several people's lives in a huge way, including these vulnerable kids who did nothing to deserve whatever kind of crap they're going through right now. And just balance that with a healthy degree of skepticism, which you're already doing, so that you can testify with as many of the facts at your disposal as you can, and you can feel secure that you're testifying for the right side or at least the better side. But again, it really does sound like you are. I admire your thoughtfulness and your conviction. We're wishing you and this family, especially those kids, all the best.

[00:13:59] You know what you should definitely get sole custody of in a breakup? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:14:08] This episode is sponsored in part by Peloton. It's the time of year when people are making New Year's resolutions, and I wanted to share with you how I've been able to keep up with my goals in the past. I don't make resolutions. I actually just do stuff when it needs to get done, but I made a goal in early 2022 to get fit and be healthier. And I started the year at about 190 pounds and now I'm at my goal weight of 150. I have a six-pack for the first time in my entire life. Literally, I've never been this fit or this healthy. And I want to share a couple of things that helped work for me. Number one, protect your time. Like it's a business meeting. Do not think of it as something that's flexible. Do it first thing in the morning that works for me. You just bank it. The earlier in the day, the more willpower I have, the less other people's crap gets in the way, very rarely am I dealing with other people, putting stuff on my plate that early in the morning. Two, lower the friction, make those habits. I've talked about this earlier in the other segments of my Peloton as well. So if you're having to get up, pack a duffle bag, change, go to the gym sometimes in the winter. That's a lot of friction to get a workout in. That's one reason that I like Peloton. That thing is just, it's sitting there. I can get a workout in. If somebody cancels a call, I can shuffle things around. So protect your time when there's a workout. But low friction plays a large role on whether or not you're going to get something done, actually. And Peloton, they're famous for their bikes, but Peloton also makes a top-notch rowing machine. That store is upright. I went to the store and I tried it out. It's really a full body workout that's low impact, no jumping. There's very little damage to your joints when you're rowing if you're doing it correctly. And often people do their workouts with bad forms, speaking of which, when there's no trainer present or maybe when you're new to something. One of the things that I really liked about the Peloton Row is that it has sensors that track your movements and determine whether you're performing each stroke correctly, and it'll warn you if you're doing something wrong. Really, really good at determining whether or not your back is too hunched or too straight, or you're hunched too far forward, you're leaning too much, you're not leaning enough. There's a little guide, there's a little you right on the screen in the corner, and he or she will show you exactly how your form is and how it matches up to an ideal stroke. So you'll see that your back like I said, leaning too far forward, too far backward, your legs bent too early, you didn't bend your knees at the right time — all of these things can add up to repetitive strain injuries because you know over time, if you do the wrong thing over and over, yeah, it's obviously really bad for you. Peloton Row's Form Assist can help correct that and after each class it also scores your form so you're actually being competitive with yourself to see if your form is improving. It'll show you exactly what you need to do to improve your form. A great way to avoid getting super injured or tweaking something and not being able to work out, which of course stops a lot of people who are diving in for the first time or getting back into it after a long time. If you really want to correct your form, you can also go to any Peloton showroom where a trainer working there will set you straight. And I had a lot of fun doing that over at Peloton in the mall here.

[00:16:58] Jen Harbinger: Right now is the perfect time to get rowing With Peloton Row, we can promise you've never rowed like this before. Peloton Row offers a variety of classes for all levels and game-changing features that help you get rowing or advance what you can already do. Explore Peloton Row and their financing options at one peloton.com/row.

[00:17:18] Thank you for listening to and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here, all the links, all the deals, all the discount codes for the advertisers and the sponsors are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well, so please consider supporting those who support this show.

[00:17:38] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:17:41] All right, next up.

[00:17:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm an early 30s man looking for a serious relationship, but seven years ago I was diagnosed with an incurable, debilitating illness that restricts my life, something similar to long COVID. I'm fortunate that my case is mild enough that I'm able to remain gainfully employed for now. And from the outside, I lead a normal life. But behind the scenes, I struggle every moment of every day with this illness, constantly fighting, lethargy, malaise, and brain fog. I'm able to spend time with friends and go on dates, but the next day I am wiped out. It's already very difficult finding a partner, and I have very little doubt that being open about my diagnosis would make it effectively impossible. I know that at some point in a relationship I will inevitably have to divulge this information, but I'd rather wait as long as I can. Incidentally, I have zero interest in having children, which I'm upfront about with all of my prospective partners. So that's not a complicating factor here. Is it unfair or immoral to get into a serious relationship without disclosing my illness until it weighs down the road? How much should I reveal and when? Signed, Relay This Malaise or Delay This Phase and Kick It Down the Road Aways.

[00:18:59] Jordan Harbinger: Really good question. So yes, I do think it's unfair to get into a serious relationship with somebody without disclosing a chronic illness. I think that's somewhat manipulative actually. I think it'll only create more of a problem down the line when the gal in question realizes you've been hiding something significant from her for a while. But I also feel like your condition is pretty hard to hide, given that it takes such a toll on you. If you feel exhausted the day after a date, if you're constantly lethargic, you have brain fog, I mean, she's going to notice that, or she's going to at least start to wonder, especially as you guys spend more time together, and then you're going to have to work pretty damn hard to explain why you can only hang out every two or three days, or why you need to go home randomly after dinner to take a three-hour nap. The lies are just going to compound and it's only going to make things worse. So my question for you is, why do you feel the need to wait as long as possible? And I'm sure the obvious answer is that you don't want people to write you off too soon. I get it. Okay. I can definitely appreciate why having a chronic illness creates some anxiety in the dating arena. Maybe also some shame, but I find it interesting that you're very upfront with people about not wanting to have children, which is arguably even more of a deal breaker for many people.

[00:20:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. He's willing to risk disqualifying a lot of women for a preference that he's actively chosen, but not because of a condition that he didn't choose at all. I think that's actually very interesting.

[00:20:24] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. I mean, we have all heard those stories of guys that don't tell their significant other, they don't want kids until they're about to get married. Or maybe even after like, "Actually, I don't want kids." It's like, what?

[00:20:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: What?

[00:20:33] Jordan Harbinger: Right. This guy, meanwhile, was like, "No, I'm going to screen everyone hard, but God forbid I scare them off with this thing.

[00:20:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:20:38] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, what is it about talking about the illness that feels so dangerous? Which can, so to speak, are you really kicking down the road by delaying this conversation?

[00:20:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:49] Jordan Harbinger: What would come up for you if you brought this up to somebody on date two, date three, what would you risk? That's what I'd want to know.

[00:20:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great questions. I can definitely appreciate the anxiety he feels about this condition as well. Who knows? Maybe somebody did write him off for this in the past and he doesn't want that to happen again, and that is fair. I understand that. But there is a mitigating factor here, in my view, which is the way you talk about this illness, that will play such a huge role in how women respond to it. If you fully own it, if you're like, "So listen, I have this thing, it's kind of a bummer. I get really tired sometimes. Sometimes I get a little brain foggy. got to take a nap, or I'm not as like focused as I usually am, but I'm determined to not let it stop me from enjoying my life. I don't want it to stop me from having a relationship, it just means that I have to take it easy sometimes after I socialize. So there it is." If you say something like that, I think a lot of people will go, "Okay, fatigue, brain fog. I get it, especially after COVID, right, a lot of people get it."

[00:21:46] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: "That sucks. But I like you and I really like your attitude about this. I think I can live with that." That is easily how this could go. But if you hide this for weeks or even months and you're shifty about why you go MIA for three days, and then when you finally do tell the person, you're like staring into space and you're giving this whole, like, "please don't leave me because I'm not perfect" vibe, then yeah, that might make women think that this is a bigger deal than it is, and that might be what drives them away, not the condition itself.

[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Yeah. Gabe, I'm just realizing this is very similar to the question we took last week from the woman who had left the whole purity culture church world.

[00:22:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:25] Jordan Harbinger: And just wasn't sure how to talk about it with new guys.

[00:22:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, yes. It's exactly like that.

[00:22:30] Jordan Harbinger: She was trying to figure out how to tell people that she was in an evangelical church, that she left, and that's why she has basically no experience with dating.

[00:22:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:38] Jordan Harbinger: Obviously these stories are very different, but the thing that they have in common is that both of you guys have some anxiety and some shame around your stories. And that was episode 774, by the way. I would definitely give that a listen.

[00:22:51] So yeah, the more you can explore that shame, the more you can work through it. So you can get to a point where you say, "Hey, this is me. This is my condition. Just want you to know," the easier this is going to be.

[00:23:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And he doesn't even need to get to a point where he's completely free of the shame in order to talk about this. He could even say, "Listen, I'm kind of embarrassed by this. I wish I didn't have this condition, but hey, I like you. I'm excited to keep hanging out with you and yeah, I think it's only fair that you know this about me.," Even that would be a huge step forward for him.

[00:23:20] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. And you know what? Women might even respond even more strongly to that because that is real confidence, not pretending you're not ashamed about something.

[00:23:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:29] Jordan Harbinger: But being willing to acknowledge that maybe you kind of are.

[00:23:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And look, it doesn't have to be on his hinge profile, right?

[00:23:36] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:23:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: He doesn't—

[00:23:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:23:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: He doesn't even have to bring it up on the very first date or even the second date. But if the relationship could go somewhere, yeah, bringing it up early on, I do believe that's the right thing to do and the easier thing to do.

[00:23:47] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. And if he does that a few times, he finds that people don't go running for the hills. I think he's going to start to rewrite this fear of his.

[00:23:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely.

[00:23:55] Jordan Harbinger: So good luck out there, man. I love how open you are to looking at this in a new way. Take care of yourself. And we're crossing our fingers that you find a girl who hates kids and loves naps, which by the way, lot of people, lot of people love naps.

[00:24:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: A lot of people.

[00:24:08] Jordan Harbinger: And cuddling and watching Netflix, and that Venn diagram is a legit circle.

[00:24:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:14] Jordan Harbinger: You could reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through, a big decision you're wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. What to do when your friend turns into an unhinged bridezilla? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:24:41] All right. What's next?

[00:24:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my late 20s and work as a writer for a small marketing agency. The company has gone downhill fast this year. We've had major financial losses and our CEO has done little to address this. Plus, my workload just tripled after two people quit in the last month, and I hear rumors of more people leaving soon. I realized after this year that I actually want to switch careers and break into human resources after doing a bunch of HR-related work, which I found really rewarding. But there have been few job postings lately as it's the end of the year. I also don't have any formal education in HR that I feel I need for even entry-level roles. I do have emergency savings to last me about three months if I left, but I'm worried that still might not be enough depending on the job market. Also, my paycheck enables me to live fairly well. Do I quit now and save my mental health, work on my skills and hope to find a job soon? Or do I stick it out as long as I can while searching, despite the fact that it feels like I'm on a sinking ship? Signed, Take a Risk and Jump Ship Quick or Stick With the Script While I Stack These Bricks.

[00:25:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, very common scenario and a good question. I'm sorry that your company is struggling. I know it can really be demoralizing and stressful to be on a sinking ship. This is no fun, but I love that you've stumbled into something you really care about. That is very exciting.

[00:26:06] So look, if I were you, I would stay put, I would go into aggressive job-hunting mode, and I say that for a few reasons. First of all, it's generally easier to find a job when you have a job, partly because, yeah, you can keep that paycheck, you can use it to fund your job search, and you won't have to stress about money and finding a new job at the same time, which can get kind of intense. Sometimes it can even make you a little desperate. Like maybe you accept a job you don't love because you really need the money, and suddenly you're unhappy in a different way.

[00:26:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:26:38] Jordan Harbinger: Whereas if you stuck it out, you might have some more runway to find the job that you truly love. Second, yeah, the job market is weird right now. It might take three, four, five months to find a job, maybe longer even if you're highly qualified. So quitting now and living off savings, it's kind of a risk, not a totally crazy risk, but it is a risk. Also, yeah, things are stressful at your job. The rats are fleeing the ship. Your workload is tripled. I get it. But you sound like a levelheaded person. It sounds like you're managing the stress fairly well. So I wonder if you'd get more out of staying and being highly motivated to find another job than you would out of just leaving entirely.

[00:27:18] That said, if you are truly miserable, if this company is just a total sh*t show and you're a mess and all the work is leaving you zero time to reach out to people and book interviews and learn these new HR skills, that's a different story. Then maybe you do need to leave just for sanity's sake and to refocus. But then I would figure out how much time you truly need to learn those skills and position yourself as a qualified HR expert. There's probably a way to create that narrative and, I don't know, three months, and if you have a killer network, you might be able to slip into a new job pretty quickly, but realistically, between doing your homework and doing trainings and getting a cert or two and building your brand and meeting the right people, I think it's going to take longer than three months.

[00:28:04] So I would take a moment to get clear with yourself on whether you need a wide open ocean in front of you to make this transition, or if you can really do it during nights and weekends. And also whether doing it during nights and weekends might actually make your job more tolerable. Knowing there's light at the end of the tunnel, you kind of have the keys to the prison, so to speak.

[00:28:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:28:22] Jordan Harbinger: And my advice, start with the relationship-building piece. Talk to folks in the HR world if you're not doing that already. Get a sense of what opportunities are out there, what you need to do to position yourself for these HR jobs, what these employers need to see from you, all that stuff. They'll know the answers to all of these questions and that'll help you come up with a plan. And you need to be meeting these people anyway. So you're killing two birds with one stone.

[00:28:47] My only other idea, if you stick around for more than another two, three months, maybe ask your employer for a raise. I know that's dicey because things are rocky, but if multiple people are quitting, you might be able to go to your boss and say, "Listen, I know times are tough. I'm happy to pick up the slack, but I need a little more money if I'm going to be doing three times the work. It's only fair. That'll allow me to keep doing great work for you." And maybe they give you a third or half what one of those other employees was making, and you'll feel better about putting in so much work. And more money will mean you'll have more resources to invest in your rebrand, which again, that's a huge asset.

[00:29:23] So that's my take. Weigh the hit to your mental health against the upside to staying only you can answer that, but in general, unless you're being truly abused at work or you're absolutely freaking miserable. You can probably find a relationship to your current job that doesn't drag you down and use it to fund or give you runway for your next chapter. So good luck. I have a feeling there are some exciting things ahead and you'll end up somewhere great.

[00:29:50] You know what'll help you cope with the hostile work environment, Gabriel?

[00:29:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, the products and services—

[00:29:55] Jordan Harbinger: Let me just stop you right there. The products and services that support the show. We'll be right back.

[00:30:01] This episode is sponsored in part by Hyundai. Welcome to Hyundai's Essential Skills Series. As we enter the new year, it's a good time to check in and reflect how you want to prioritize your time. And of course, it helps to figure out what your purpose is. But let's back up because I actually kind of hate the whole idea of finding your purpose or having to have one in the first place. It's a lot of pressure. For a long time, I worried about not having a compelling purpose, and by purpose I don't mean a reason to get up in the morning or something I really enjoyed doing, or a major milestone I was working toward. I always had plenty of those. I mean purpose with a capital P. That simple, profound, awe-inspiring catch-all phrase that described what I was meant to do on earth. You know, this one sentence you bust out at dinner parties and conferences that captures the brilliant essence of what you do and makes other people go, "Wow, this guy's totally got life figured out, man." I did not have that and I didn't for a really long time.

[00:30:54] What I did have was a disparate collection of intense interests, social engineering, travel, foreign languages, psychology to name a few. I spent my adolescence and early adulthood going deep into those fields, but they didn't exactly lend themselves to a clever mission statement. If I couldn't articulate it, did I really have a purpose? And if I didn't have a purpose, was my work really meaningful? What was I missing? And one of the most common emails I received from you all is about finding purpose. And almost every one of those emails comes down to the same basic problem. "I don't know what my purpose is and it's making me unhappy. What am I lacking?" I rarely get emails that say, "I don't know what my purpose is, but hey, I'm having a lot of fun trying to figure it out," or, "I can't figure out my purpose, but I am still loving life."

[00:31:40] In almost every case, the quest for purpose goes hand in hand with anxiety, fear, depression, insecurity. So it really is no surprise that an entire industry has developed around this exact problem. Browse career websites. See a life coach, or check out the top self-help books, and you'll find no shortage of experts trying to help you check this huge task off your list. Finding your purpose, it's kind of having a moment right now. Social media and the personal branding movement only made this obligation, well, quite a bit worse by requiring us to essentially publicize our self-summaries to the world and penalizing us if we don't. You never notice that every teenager, every college student on Instagram has life totally figured out. And so we see other people busting out their purposes with ease and being rewarded for their vision while we quietly wonder if we are the only ones who haven't figured it out yet. And finding our purpose then becomes a real problem, and we start obsessing over our purpose from a place of obligation, a place of doubt in fear. We read books, we attend multi-day thousand dollars seminars. We poll our friends, we take online career quizzes. We fantasize about all the other things that we could be doing to make our lives more meaningful. Because if we don't, we worry that we're going to lose the game. We'll just be directionless meat puppets in a purpose-driven world, all because we don't have that one profound idea, let's capitalize each one of those, right? Underline it.

[00:33:10] One profound idea about ourselves and what we're here to do, and this is what I call the cult of purpose, the idea, this idea that we have to know why we're here in order to thrive. We should be able to talk about our purpose easily and confidently with other people at any given moment. And if we can't, well you're failing in life then. And if we don't, then we're never really going to be fulfilled because we're rudderless and aiming in the wrong direction. The cults of purpose is how the exciting journey to find out what we want to do with our lives instead becomes a desperate quest to satisfy an external idea of who we should be, who we think we're supposed to be, or who other people think we're supposed to be. And that's the mistake that I made when I was trying to figure out my purpose early on. I looked at all the varied topics I was interested in, articulated a purpose that tied them together in some pseudo-elegant way, and then reverse-engineered an identity that satisfied that purpose.

[00:34:10] But as I know from my own life, and as you know from yours, I'm sure, that approach just does not work, not really, and not for long anyway. Rather than generating true meaning in our lives, grasping at an external purpose and then fighting to fulfill it,. That's a really good recipe for imposterism/imposter syndrome and imposterism combined, now that I think about it. And we've talked about that a lot on Feedback Friday and on this show here. Okay, so why does that happen? Because instead of stepping into who we already are, we are creating an idea, a mental fiction, a very attractive mental fiction, but a fiction nonetheless. And then trying to become that, which of course, that is the very definition of being an imposter. Instead of being ourselves, we try to become an idea of ourselves. And even if we created that idea, it's still not authentic. It's still not who we are. And on the deepest level, we know that we are so much more than an idea, especially an idea that we just created as a result of external pressure.

[00:35:08] The truth is, purpose is not something that we just decide. It's something that we discover. And more than that, it's something we develop, which is why we need to rethink how we find it and for more on purpose, finding it, developing it for and with yourself, and dealing with the surrounding anxiety that comes with the cult of purpose, I highly suggest our deep dive on purpose and why you don't need to find it. That's actually episode 138, a little throwback here at the show. Again, episode 138. We'll link it in the show notes. It's our deep dive called Forget Finding Your Purpose, Do This instead.

[00:35:42] The Hyundai's Essential Skills Series is brought to you by Hyundai. For more information, go to www.hyundai.com. Hyundai, it's your journey.

[00:35:50] If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, take a moment and support our sponsors. All of our deals are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. All the codes, all the discounts, URLs, all that jazz, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. Thank you very much for supporting those who support us. It makes it possible for us to do these shows week after week.

[00:36:17] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:36:21] All right, what's next?

[00:36:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've recently been going through something of a therapeutic breakthrough in no small part, thanks to your show. I've been able to process most of my traumas, understand what's happening in my own mind, and build a healthier outlook on life. One unexpected side effect of this growth, however, has been a reintroduction of anger into my emotional life after a long time. Because of my past trauma, I learned to internalize blame for situations large and small, and often felt guilt rather than anger. This new anger is never unjustified. I've always had a strong sense of justice. Whether it's a coworker who makes an insensitive comment or a simple mistake that ends up doing real harm to somebody, I now find a seething white-hot rage, where before I felt nothing. My conscious mind knows to wait until I can think clearly, approach the person from a place of compassion and understanding, and try to reach a healthy and positive outcome. So what does a healthy relationship with anger look like for most people where you allow yourself to attribute blame to the appropriate parties without having a meltdown? And what's the best way to channel this disproportionate feeling of rage towards something positive? Signed, Calibrating My Mind and Staying Benign as This Feeling Comes Back Online.

[00:37:42] Jordan Harbinger: F*ck it, man. Let it fly. F*ck them. They're f*cking morons. But seriously, f*cking great question, but for real, first of all, congrats on all this amazing work you've done. I think that's really inspiring. I do love that the show has played a small part in that. That is awesome. You sound like a really curious and thoughtful person. I am sure that that's a big part of this breakthrough that you're having. So yeah, this is actually kind of fascinating.

[00:38:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:06] Jordan Harbinger: When you start working through your stuff, when you get in touch with parts of yourself that were punished or denied or somehow cut off, you often find yourself in touch with all sorts of feelings. For some people, it's fear. For some people, it's shame, and for a lot of people, it's anger, man.

[00:38:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. Yeah. Especially people who deal with depression.

[00:38:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's this whole depression is anger turned inward concept.

[00:38:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. Which fits with this thing he said about guilt. That's kind of classic inverted anger, right?

[00:38:35] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:38:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like you get mad, but you don't feel that that anger can legitimately go anywhere, so you don't express it, you keep it inside, you take it on yourself, which is basically what internalizing is. And then it often gets converted into guilt or shame or in a lot of cases, just this kind of blunted nothing.

[00:38:55] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Because it's like, "Oh, I couldn't tell my mom. I was mad at her for what she said. So I just secretly seethe and then I feel guilty for being so sensitive.

[00:39:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:03] Jordan Harbinger: Or for not being a better son or for not knowing how to speak up or whatever the case may be.

[00:39:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly. It could be a new number of things anyway. Look, we don't know if this guy was actually depressed, but that might be part of what he was dealing with before he started to get back in touch with all of these interesting feelings.

[00:39:19] Jordan Harbinger: I think it might be. Yeah. So getting back in touch with this anger. This is all very healthy. This is what is supposed to happen. And by the way, just one of the many reasons we're such big believers in therapy, the more you can be in touch with all these feelings, the more you can invite them in work through them, the less they'll dictate your life in the way they tend to when they're repressed. But it's such a good question. What does a healthy relationship with anger look like? Because we all know people who are very in touch with their anger, but they're maniacs, right? They're screaming at the valet guy, they're snapping at their kids, they're going ham on Twitter. That is not healthy either.

[00:39:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:56] Jordan Harbinger: So first of all, I think you're already on the right track here. The fact that you can even ask this question, it just tells me you're bringing a lot of awareness to these feelings. Unstable people, they are not asking this question. They're just reacting.

[00:40:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The ex-wife from question one isn't going, "What's a healthy relationship to my anger?

[00:40:14] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:40:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Like, "What's a healthy relationship to my sadness? Is it taking my kids away from my ex?" Like that's not part of her conversation.

[00:40:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She's completely out of touch with that stuff. For sure. She might be in touch with a lot of big feelings.

[00:40:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:25] Jordan Harbinger: But that woman, she is at the whim of those feelings.

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:40:29] Jordan Harbinger: They are jerking her around.

[00:40:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:31] Jordan Harbinger: And now, she's trying to control her kids because of that. That's not you, so that's great. Another important thing is being able to feel your anger, being able to express that anger when it's appropriate, but also being able to acknowledge your role in a situation.

[00:40:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:48] Jordan Harbinger: That's when you can look at your colleague who said that snarky thing in a meeting and think, "Okay, you know, that was kind of messed up. That didn't make me feel very good. I think I'm going to say something, but also maybe I need to figure out why that comment made me so angry. Is he right—?

[00:41:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:02] Jordan Harbinger: —on some level? Is he pushing a button? I didn't know was there? Am I reading some intent into what he said, whatever it is? The more you can straddle your anger in another person's position and also try to view things from kind of a neutral perspective, or maybe somebody pissed you off but they didn't intend to, or it doesn't mean what you think it means, the more you'll know whether your anger is really justified or whether it has to be like an eight when it could be maybe a three.

[00:41:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: And to your credit, you're already doing that. You like to wait, you try to approach the other person from a place of compassion, reach a positive outcome, you're doing great. As for the best way to channel this disproportionate feeling of rage towards something positive. I'm thinking about that question we took a while back from the guy who had severe eco anxiety. Jordan, do you remember that?

[00:41:49] Jordan Harbinger: I do remember that guy. Yeah. He was terrified of what was happening to the environment, but like way more than a he. It was interrupting him, being able to function in life.

[00:41:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, yes. He had this like overwhelming sense of dread.

[00:42:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:42:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: And our advice there was, find a project ideally, something very specific, very doable, and channel your anxiety into doing something good for the world because your anxiety thrives in the abstract. But once you say, "Okay, I am spinning out about, you know, the Great Barrier Reef—"

[00:42:19] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: "So I'm going to raise $500 for the ocean project, or I'm going to tell my friends to support this cause," whatever you decide to do, that anxiety is in service of something and it'll probably start to ratchet down. The anxiety is still there. You're not suppressing it. You're not denying it, but it's probably not as debilitating as it was. And now it has a function, which means it has meaning because you're using it to do something good.

[00:42:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right, right. So we could say the same thing about anger. Channel it.

[00:42:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:46] Jordan Harbinger: Don't just let it fester or consume you. Use it to act in some way. I feel like Obi-Wan Kenobi saying that, but you know what I mean.

[00:42:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly. So maybe that means you approach the other person and just talk about the problem openly. Like you can be angry and still want to work on the solution. That's great. Or maybe you use the anger to motivate you to, I don't know, change a certain policy at your work, or shift the relationship with that colleague who pissed you off. Or, hey, just keep exploring your anger and therapy. Or if the anger is so extreme and there's no way to fix it, find a new job where you don't have to deal with toxic colleagues anymore. These are all good options. Or again, maybe when you feel the anger rising up, you go, "Ah, okay. This is how I feel when people aren't very nice to me when they're not very thoughtful. This doesn't feel good. So, yeah. I'm going to make an effort to not make my other colleagues feel this way. That's always a great use of an unpleasant feeling when the situation can't change.

[00:43:41] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. The whole, this person made me feel a certain way, so I'm not going to make other people feel that way, that by itself is—

[00:43:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:48] Jordan Harbinger: —a pretty good use of anger. That goes a long way.

[00:43:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:50] Jordan Harbinger: So there you have it. And this is actually a great reminder for me, that feeling all the feels is half the battle, but knowing what to do with the feels is the other half.

[00:43:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:59] Jordan Harbinger: And that's where it really gets interesting.

[00:44:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:44:01] Jordan Harbinger: Because these feelings can lead you in so many different directions and choosing to channel them into productive directions, to use them to learn about yourself, build better relationships rather than, I don't know, dragging your beleaguered ex-husband into a courtroom to dominate your kids after you abandon them multiple times and rush into an impulsive engagement. That's a superpower. Enlightened rage, Gabe. What an interesting concept that would be.

[00:44:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well said.

[00:44:27] Jordan Harbinger: All right, what's next?

[00:44:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. About two years ago, a new tenant moved into my small safe apartment building. Since then, many of my packages have gone missing despite receiving messages from the sender, confirming delivery. We also have a shared storage area, and after her arrival, some of my belongings disappeared. When I noticed this pattern, I started having my packages delivered to my workplace and stopped storing items in the shared storage space. That worked fine until I couldn't have items shipped to an alternative address. Once again, items delivered to my apartment would go missing if she was home. Recently, I loudly vocalized my frustrations about all of this on the phone with a friend. The next morning I saw an empty box addressed to me on top of the trash receptacle outside. Even more frustrating is that my neighbor doesn't appear to steal from anyone but me. I would address this issue directly with her if she weren't so unstable. When I researched her on social media, I found several videos of her driving down the street shooting rounds into the air.

[00:45:30] Jordan Harbinger: What? This person is insane. Holy sh*t. Geez.

[00:45:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've also heard her engage in physical altercations with visitors during arguments. I spoke with my landlord and they're refusing to intervene without proof. I was recommended to purchase a ring doorbell to provide evidence of her theft, but since the doorbell would have to be installed in a common area, she would likely steal it, leaving me without any recourse. Do you have any other ideas on how I can catch this woman in the act and put an end to all of this? Signed, Sitting Here Reeling While My Neighbor is Stealing.

[00:46:05] Jordan Harbinger: This is so, I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty excited about this question.

[00:46:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: I had a feeling you would be, this is right up your alley.

[00:46:12] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, batsh*t, crazy neighbor, physical security, crime — this is just three of my favorite genres, mashed right together.

[00:46:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm excited. I love when physical security Jordan comes out. It's like a whole other Jordan. Let's do this.

[00:46:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, he's out. All right, let's talk about how to take this piece of work down. Freaking Kathleen, the crazy klepto. So, okay, obvious answer, get a UPS box, problem solved. But we're not going to do that, right? We're not going to do that. We're not letting her get away with this.

[00:46:39] First of all, My goodness. What an infuriating piece of crap neighbor to have.

[00:46:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:46:45] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sorry. You've been dealing with this maniac. She just sounds like an absolute — well, first of all, she is a criminal and should be imprisoned. Or just like who drives round shooting? What an absolute piece of crap.

[00:46:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's actually very dangerous, right? Like shooting into the air is not a good idea.

[00:46:58] Jordan Harbinger: Highly illegal. Also, you can't just drive around shooting guns into the air. This isn't like rural Lebanon, dude. Stealing sh*t from your neighbors—

[00:47:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's actually a crime though, isn't it? Shooting is a crime in most states.

[00:47:12] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. You have to be on your own land. There's all kinds of guidelines around this. You don't just drive around. I think shooting from a vehicle period is illegal in pretty much every circumstance other than you have some sort of designated training range for Navy SEALs or something. Come on. Stealing stuff from your neighbors, just unforgivable. This actually happened to me when we lived at our last house. It was infuriating. I've got a story about that that I think I told on the show that ended up on TV. The fact that this woman is so unstable, that definitely makes things trickier. I mean, Kathleen really be out there firing live rounds out of her Toyota Corolla and posting it on Instagram. She's putting her house guests into chokeholds. This woman is kind of scary. of course, only somebody unhinged like this would steal packages from her neighbor and then just think I can get away with it and I can do whatever I want.

[00:48:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, so true. I'm also pretty annoyed with this landlord though.

[00:48:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, same. They should have asked Kathleen if anything has been going on, put her on notice a little bit.

[00:48:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or at least offer to set up cameras or something. I mean, they have an interest in keeping the building safe too.

[00:48:16] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. And yeah, that's not cool. But I also understand their position to some degree. Eh, they're probably cheap, like many landlords are. They can't do anything meaningful without proof. They're expecting her to do that, so fine.

[00:48:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:29] Jordan Harbinger: That's just how it is. They don't live there, obviously, because if they did, they would care because they would live there.

[00:48:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:33] Jordan Harbinger: So I have two strategies to nab Kathleen and I would do them in this order. First, I would buy a few AirTags. If you don't know, AirTags are like tiny trackers. They're sort of like Bluetooth trackers. They don't use Bluetooth as far as I understand, but they allow you to keep tabs on stuff. They're like 30 bucks each. There's I think a hundred bucks for a pack of four. I would buy a couple of relatively cheap items. I'm talking something Kathleen's going to keep like a DVD player or a pair of headphones or a jewelry box with a false bottom, something like that. Stick the AirTags inside them and ship the items to yourself. You should probably do two, three, even four of these packages separately to make sure that she keeps at least one of them, and hopefully establish a real pattern. Because if she gets one, she's going to go, "Oh, I took it in with the rest of my mail. I didn't even see it," you know? But if she's got one, one week, one the next week, one the next week, and one the next week, she's stealing your mail and it's hard for her to be like, "Oh, oops."

[00:49:31] Then I would leave the packages in the mail room or on your front door for a while. Let her steal them. And then, you open up the app on your phone. You watch those AirTags go from your apartment to the shipping center, back to your building and end up in Kathleen's apartment or in the trash, probably in her apartment in the item. You can literally see it happening right there in real time. You screenshot the locations of the AirTag on your phone, document everything. Boom. That is the proof you need because that now Apple is vouching for the item being in this person's apartment. No one has to take your word for it. It's in there.

[00:50:06] The second thing I would do, I would purchase a ring camera or even two. Any type of camera will do. You'll probably have to get your landlord's permission to set them up in common areas, but they should be on board with that. You might need a sign or something. Point them at the mail area and the storage room. These are not too expensive. You can get basic ones for 60 to a hundred bucks right now. And now, yes, Kathleen might immediately see them and tear them down, but hey, this is actually fine because ring cameras, store their data in the cloud. They are on secure Amazon AWS servers. So you can actually view the footage from your computer and you will see this dumb ass stealing the camera and possibly throwing it away, which is kind of, or the packages and throwing them away. It's kind of amazing. She's going to be playing herself. And if you want to go even further, you could also put up a tiny camera that's super inconspicuous. Again, I'm pretty sure your landlord can approve this. They should actually want this. And then, you'll catch her red-handed without her knowing.

[00:51:03] And between those three things, you should have more than enough evidence to take this woman down. And man, that's going to be a great day just seeing this brazen thief who's just frankly an a-hole watch camera footage of herself stealing your fake broken, used Vitamix from the mail room. Now, it's up to you to decide whether to share this with the landlord or to report it to the police as well. I would do both. My concern is the landlord just gives her a warning. Maybe they just want the stealing to stop without having to create waves and replace a tenant, which is total BS in my opinion. And if you have video and GPS evidence, you probably have a pretty strong case to take to law enforcement. And I think that that's absolutely warranted.

[00:51:42] By the way, mail theft is also a federal crime, and I'm pretty sure it's a crime in most, if not all states, certainly in California. If the mail was delivered also by the US Postal Service, so not UPS, not FedEx, if it's delivered by the US Postal Service, you can report it to them and apparently they will investigate this. I've heard this before, the US PS postal inspector, they're kind of like the FBI, they are federal agents. They absolutely take this type of thing seriously. I would imagine they'll take them a while because they're probably backed up with reports like this. If the packages were sent by private carriers, you can still report it to the police. It's still a crime. It's still prosecutable and you know, they might pick her to go after her, given the fact that she also seems to be completely nuts and shooting rounds from her car. They might not go after her for that, but they're going to see that this woman is a menace and this is not some harmless little prank that someone's playing on you.

[00:52:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was going to say, when she takes all of this evidence to the police, she should also just slide her phone across the table, open to this woman's Instagram account and just show them the live rounds out of the Corolla. Like this is the person we're dealing with.

[00:52:44] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: That could also be evidence, I think. I don't know for sure how that works, but I think the police would be very interested to know that this is the kind of thing this woman is doing. There's one other option here, which is you show the landlord the evidence, you tell them that you're going to contact the police, but that this woman is a danger and a nuisance and she needs to go. And then the landlord can do what apparently many landlords do, which is go to Kathleen directly and say, "Look here, Kath-Kath, we have evidence of you stealing packages. That's a crime. We're giving you a month to move out, or we're going to take this to the police and pursue criminal charges." And she might be so freaked out that she just bounces.

[00:53:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I love that idea. I'm sure that works, sometimes. I do wonder if that's a hundred percent legal. That would be a great question to ask a landlord-tenant attorney. If anyone listening right now knows the answer to that question, drop us an email. I just worry that that could be construed as unlawful coercion to move out or something like that, like an underhanded eviction without going through proper channels. I don't know. I'm just imagining. Also what you should do is you should go and save that post of hers, of her shooting—

[00:53:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:45] Jordan Harbinger: —using a screen recorder because she might delete that.

[00:53:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ooh, good call.

[00:53:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So go in and record that on your own computer—

[00:53:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:53:51] Jordan Harbinger: —using the web version of Instagram and like, you know, QuickTime screen recording or something on your computer because she might clean up her act or she ends up in court because her lawyer will advise her to delete that stuff. And you might be like, "Not so fast, Kathleen. I got it right here. Don't worry."

[00:54:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, I'm worried about what this woman might do to our friend here when she gets busted.

[00:54:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:54:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: However she ends up getting busted. I mean, like you said, she has a gun, she's physically abusive. It sounds like she has poor impulse control. She doesn't seem to care what people think of her.

[00:54:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is some bipolar disorder-type criminal behavior.

[00:54:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:54:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:54:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm kind of worried for this person.

[00:54:25] Jordan Harbinger: I totally get it. And by the way, not all BPD is criminal. There's a lot of people who have it, in fact, one of my best friends has it. He's not a criminal that shoots people or puts people in chokehold.

[00:54:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:35] Jordan Harbinger: But we were talking with Dr. Shaham Dass and he said that a lot of criminals who have super poor impulse control, they're also BPD. This woman is sort of—

[00:54:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:54:42] Jordan Harbinger: —checking those boxes, but I totally get it. I don't really know what to do about that, but something has to change. This freaking maniac can't just keep stealing this woman's packages and getting away with it. She's going to have to weigh her personal safety against protecting her stuff. I just don't see a way out of this without incurring some personal risk, but I know it's scary.

[00:55:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: But even if this woman gets charged, mail theft is a misdemeanor in most states, right?

[00:55:09] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: She might just get slapped with a fine and sent right back to her apartment, but now she's even more pissed and she has it even more out for this woman in particular.

[00:55:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's possible. So maybe your thuggish approach is the right one. Just get this woman out. Although she could still come back, which is terrifying.

[00:55:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:55:25] Jordan Harbinger: I want to say that she could turn to the police for this, but realistically, they're not going to protect her.

[00:55:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:55:29] Jordan Harbinger: They can't camp out outside her door for six weeks after they bust this neighbor. If something happens, they're not going to be there. And that is worrisome. What's that phrase that people who are big on Second Amendment law? They're like, your seconds count, but the police are just minutes away, something like that. It's basically the cops will arrive right after you're dead is the sentiment here.

[00:55:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's why I think the cameras are the best way to go. I would lean on your landlord to set up a bunch of them in the common areas and let the woman know that everyone in the building is now being surveilled.

[00:55:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:59] Jordan Harbinger: Hopefully, that will keep her in check.

[00:56:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although again, let's remember this is the woman who is firing her Smith & Wesson through her sunroof on Facebook. So who knows if a couple of cameras are really going to stop her?

[00:56:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's a real problem. I mean, geez man, this woman is really a tough case, but if she knows the cops might get involved, eh, that could keep her in check. Maybe there's drug abuse going on here. She sounds like a mess. Maybe she thinks she's untouchable.

[00:56:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that gives me one last idea, which is maybe you gather this evidence and you go to Kathleen directly and you say, "Look, I know what you're doing. I have proof. Here it is. I'm giving you one chance to stop stealing my stuff, and if you don't, I'm going to share this with the police." If you say that in a fairly non-threatening way, just very matter of fact, it might send just the right message and then yeah, if it continues, then you can escalate from there if you really need to.

[00:56:48] Jordan Harbinger: I kind of like that approach. It's a little scary, but I think it strikes a good balance between being tough and diplomatic. Whatever you do, please be safe. Take care of yourself, document everything and enjoy that Vitamix.

[00:57:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: The Ferrari of blenders, truly.

[00:57:04] Jordan Harbinger: That's what I hear. Every vegan needs one, right? So your food tastes less sad.

[00:57:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's right. I think that's actually in the marketing materials. So your food tastes less sad, Vitamix.

[00:57:15] Jordan Harbinger: Those babies aren't cheap, man. They are not cheap.

[00:57:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, they are not. The motor has, I believe, 2.2 horsepower, but they're worth every penny.

[00:57:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Kathleen can't be enjoying that 2.2 horsepower blender. That is your 2.2—

[00:57:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

[00:57:27] Jordan Harbinger: —horsepower blender.

[00:57:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right.

[00:57:29] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, I hate this woman so much.

[00:57:31] All right. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Dr. Kevin Dutton if you haven't yet.

[00:57:40] All these people, all these guests, I book for the show are in my network, and I'm teaching you how to build your network using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use every single day. Check out our Six-Minute Networking course. The course is free over on the Thinkific platform, jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Don't try to make them afterwards. You'll be way too late. That's cringe. It's a "tail between the legs" moment. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. It's been crucial for my business, my personal life. Again, all free, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:58:16] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi, or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:58:36] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:59:09] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for Fyre Fest's Billy McFarland from inside federal prison, where he's serving six years for fraud and on the hook for 26 million in restitution. Here's a quick bite.

[00:59:24] Female Operator: You will not be charged for this call. This call is from—

[00:59:28] Billy McFarland: William McFarland.

[00:59:30] Female Operator: An inmate at a federal prison. Hang up to decline the call or to accept dial five now.

[00:59:37] Jordan Harbinger: When I asked before on our first call, if you were a conman, we had 10 seconds of silence. Is this the new Billy that we're hearing or are you the same Billy that tried to pull off the Fyre Festival?

[00:59:50] Billy McFarland: When I think about the mistakes that were made and what happened, there's no way I can just describe it other than what was I thinking I was wrong, and I hope now that I can in some small way make a positive impact.

[01:00:02] Jordan Harbinger: Once you knew that the festival wasn't going to go as planned, why didn't you call it off?

[01:00:08] Billy McFarland: So a lot of people don't know, but the decision to cancel the festival was made when I was told that three people had died at the event. Thankfully, no one was actually physically hurt in any way, but up until the last second, I believed incorrectly, we could pull it off and obviously, I was wrong. We had something called the Urgent Daily Payments document, and basically, it was just Google Excel sheet. Essentially, it was a list of payments that we had to make that day, or else the festival couldn't proceed. In the couple of months leading up to the event, it went from a couple of thousand dollars a day to a few million dollars a day where had to wake up at nine in the morning, find three million by noon, and then make the payments by four.

[01:00:44] Jordan Harbinger: How was solitary confinement essentially being locked in a box? Like that sounds terrible.

[01:00:49] Billy McFarland: It really makes you think, and I think the biggest takeaway was — you know, there was one guy who was serving a 30-year sentence and he was already locked in the same room for over three and a half years when I was there.

[01:01:00] Jordan Harbinger: You had a big vision. I mean, it was huge and you got so close to something great that everyone wanted to be a part of, and people still want to be a part of it. I have to wonder if there's going to be a Fyre Fest version two. I assume you wouldn't call it that, but are you thinking of doing something similar?

[01:01:14] Billy McFarland: If there's anything that makes you want to create and build and do, it's being locked in a cage for months or years. Are you good to come?

[01:01:22] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Billy McFarland, including lessons learned on the inside, the value of trust, and Billy's plans for the future once he's served the time he agrees he rightly deserves, check out episode 422 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:01:37] Once again, special thanks to Peloton for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. We really appreciate your support.