686: An Abuser’s Dead: Get Him Out of Your Head | Feedback Friday

686: An Abuser’s Dead: Get Him Out of Your Head | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my compadre in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. And turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:37] If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of incredible people from spies to CEOs, athletes authors, and performers. This week we had Desmond Shum. This guy, he's basically a Chinese oligarch, or he was, he gave us a peek into a world of corruption and graft at the absolute highest levels of Chinese society and business — wild stories from this guy. And obviously, he can't even fly over China ever again. Also, one from the vault crazy private investigator, Steve Rambam, this guy's a trip. He's one of those investigators who chases Nazis, finds missing people, and does all of it with this sort of zany attitude that makes me just shocked that he doesn't have his own reality TV show yet. In fact, he might, what do I know. So make sure you've had to listen to everything that we created for you here this week.

[00:01:31] As always, we've got some fun ones and some doozies and I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:01:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm a woman. And I was molested at a very young age, by an uncle with Down syndrome. He was in my life growing up relatively frequently since he lived close by. Finally, as an adult, I told my parents and family what happened. I went to therapy, but I still struggle with my feelings. My siblings and mother unconditionally believed me about the abuse. But with other relatives, I've just accepted that they might not. The thing is my family still sees my uncle regularly. I myself avoid seeing him as much as possible. I still attend big family events because I love my extended family. I just try to avoid him. He's getting old. And with Down syndrome, his life expectancy is shorter. I made the decision a long time ago that I will not go to his funeral because it would be too hard emotionally to celebrate the life of someone who hurt me. But that's a hard decision to embrace because I was always taught to just take the pain. So, how do I tell my family not to expect me to attend his funeral? Signed, Not a Pallbearer, Not a Black Wearer, But Still Living in Terror of Making an Error.

[00:02:41] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I can only imagine how painful all of this must be. I can definitely understand why you still struggle with your feelings about it as well. I mean, who wouldn't? But I'm so glad to hear that your mother and your siblings believed you and that you found the support you need to work through this. I think that's wonderful. In fact, I almost expected to hear that go the other way, just given what we see on Feedback Friday, all the time, right? Those other relatives though. That's tough, but sadly, that's how it often goes in many families, especially when the expectation is that you're supposed to feel sorry for, or excuse the behavior of the abuser for other reasons.

[00:03:18] And Gabe, I don't know about you — well, you're a better person than me, but for me, I almost understand why family members might be tempted to say, "Oh, he didn't really know what he was doing. He's disabled. He is Down syndrome. He doesn't really understand what's going on." And, maybe there is some element of truth to that. But I think what people forget when they say and think things like that is, "Yeah. But that doesn't limit the pain that the other person felt as a result of this person's actions, whether they were cognizant of it or not," right?

[00:03:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, totally. Yeah.

[00:03:43] Jordan Harbinger: It's almost like — and I know I might get canceled for this, but it's almost like doing something when you're drunk and then not remembering it. You're like, "Well, I don't know. You know, I had 17 whiskeys. Sorry about that." And it's like, "Well, yeah, but I still got hit by your car when I was walking across the street. So it doesn't make me feel better."

[00:03:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Complicates it, but doesn't forgive it at all.

[00:03:58] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So, I think your decision to not go to the funeral is perfectly valid and appropriate. And if that's what you need to take care of yourself, then yeah, by all means, stay home. I'm guessing the conflict comes from the way that you were raised. As you put it, you were always taught to just take the pain. You putting your foot down here saying, "Yeah, I'm not going to the funeral of the guy who hurt me. Thanks, anyway," that's not just you standing up to your relatives. That's you finding a very different relationship with yourself, with your experience. And that is a big deal. That's intense, but it's incredibly important. And I think that signals a ton of growth on your part.

[00:04:37] So how do you tell your family not to expect you at the funeral? Well, I think you basically say, "Listen, guys, I've already told you about what uncle so-and-so did to me. It was incredibly painful, both to go through and to own it all these years later. And after a lot of reflection, I've decided that I cannot attend his funeral. It would feel gross. It would feel inauthentic. It would bring up some very difficult stuff for me. And I don't think I owe it to anyone to attend the funeral of somebody who abused me," full stop. I really think it can be that simple.

[00:05:11] If your family leans on you to reconsider, then I would consider how you'd respond to that. Given what you've been through, I think it's fair for you to say, "I hear that you'd rather I be there, but I'm not going to negotiate about this. I'm not going. Sorry if that upsets you, but that's my decision." Now, I'm guessing that'll be easier to say to your mom and siblings than to some of these other relatives who already kind of don't believe you or have stated that they don't believe you. One way to explain this to them would be, "Look, I know it's hard for you to believe what I've been through and I've come to accept that as painful as that is, but this is my life. This is what happened to me. And I'm sorry, but I just can't attend this funeral."

[00:05:51] Again, my opinion, my two cents, you really don't need to overexplain this. No one can force you to pay your respects to somebody who victimized you. They just can't. And if they're going to act like this is a huge deal and you're offending them well, screw them. They don't believe that you were abused. I mean, how much do you owe these people? In my opinion, again, just my opinion.

[00:06:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not very much.

[00:06:12] I agree with you 100 percent, Jordan. It's fascinating how concerned she is about how to communicate this decision to her family when she's well within her right—

[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:06:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: —to simply not go, but again, that probably speaks to the whole stuffed-it-down mindset that she was raised with—

[00:06:25] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: —where it's probably very hard to speak up when she's upset or when she's in pain and where she's probably compromised on her needs quite a bit to go with the flow and keep the family happy.

[00:06:36] But, you know, Jordan, to your point at the very top of this, I do wonder if the fact that her uncle had Down syndrome is part of, what's so tricky about this, because like you said, being abused by somebody with an intellectual disability, that must be very confusing, especially for a child. And maybe also confusing for some of these relatives who don't believe her. Like how much does this uncle even understand what he did? The cognitive impairment that sometimes comes with Down syndrome, it can include poor judgment, impulsive behavior, reduced self-control. So I do wonder if that makes it more difficult to embrace your anger and even to know like whom to get angry at and own your experience. Much harder than if your abuser were someone who was fully aware of what they were doing, even though in some ways that might be more malicious.

[00:07:21] None of that makes it okay or less painful, of course, but I would understand if that makes it a little harder for her to put her foot down about the funeral.

[00:07:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think, it was hard for me to put my finger on this before, but the people who are like, "Oh, why don't you come? It's my—" you know, the people who are going to be the most angry about this, let's say this uncle's mother, right? Your grandma.

[00:07:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:07:39] Jordan Harbinger: Well, maybe she should have paid more freaking — like these people themselves have some level potentially of culpability involved here. Again, potentially, like were they around at the time and they just didn't do anything, or this guy has done this to other people? You know, just why do you have to tiptoe around everybody else's stuff when possibly this is partly an issue that they could have helped avoid?

[00:07:59] Again, we don't know all the facts here, but I do think that's all very interesting here and relevant, Gabe. Like you said, that doesn't invalidate what she's been through whatsoever, but when it comes to these relatives, maybe they look at this uncle and they go, "Oh, that — he just doesn't know. He's disabled. He doesn't know what he's doing," like I mentioned before. And it's like, "Okay, fine. It's sad. But he still did something terrible to me and I'm allowed to not go, end of story." So that's our take.

[00:08:22] And if you need to communicate this to your family, I think keep it simple, keep it concise. Don't overthink it. This is your life. This is your decision. And if they have a problem with it, this is 100 percent a them problem. This is their business.

[00:08:36] Again, I'm so sorry, your uncle did this to you, but it does sound like you've come a very long way, not just in how you're processing this chapter, but in how you're processing your own feelings in general and learning to assert your needs with your family. That actually is the big win here. And I'm proud of you for that. So hang in there. Take care of yourself and we're sending you good thoughts.

[00:08:57] Gabe, you know what this reminds me of? That question we took a while back from the woman who was abused by, I think, it was her brother when they were young.

[00:09:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, yeah.

[00:09:05] Jordan Harbinger: And then they were like, "Why don't you give a toast at his wedding?" And she's like, "Because he assaulted me," and they're like, "Ugh, come on. That was years ago." Or like maybe it didn't happen. I can't remember if they didn't—

[00:09:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually—

[00:09:15] Jordan Harbinger: —believe her.

[00:09:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was worse than that. It was the brother who was making her give the toast and he was the one who abused her.

[00:09:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that is worse. Yeah, I remembered it somehow even less worse than it actually was. Yeah, that's right. He was kind of like, "Why are you so uptight? Just because I sexually assaulted you back in the day, sis."

[00:09:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:31] Jordan Harbinger: That was peak disgusting.

[00:09:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, he was also doing that — wasn't he like crying at her or something when she was — remember he would like cawed her and he called her, whatever. It was a whole weird thing.

[00:09:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It was something like, he was like whistling at her. I mean, it was so [ba-na-na-ning-ning-ning] and also raping. Yeah, it was so, so weird.

[00:09:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Was that the deliverance song that you were just doing?

[00:09:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was at my attempt at banjo with no banjo.

[00:09:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:09:53] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh.

[00:09:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that was a very similar situation. In both cases, the families were sort of like leaning on her to do what they wanted in some case. But actually, there was a happy outcome there from what I remember, Jordan. After the episode aired, the woman told her siblings what happen to her when she was young and they backed her up and they even stood up to the brother when he started making fun of her at the wedding. So that was actually quite a story, but also a great reminder that good people really do often rally around you when you speak up and tell the truth. So that might be an interesting model for how this could go for this woman. And by the way, that was episode 538 if you want to check it out. I would definitely give that a listen.

[00:10:30] Jordan Harbinger: You know who better show up to my funeral though, Gabe? The sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:10:37] This episode is sponsored in part by HubSpot. Good news, you reached your Q1 benchmarks. Now you've still got three more queues. When you look out into the sea of CRMs, it can look extremely blue. HubSpot is here to give your company a more human approach. It's a CRM platform. That's easy to use, aligns all your teams and delivers a better experience for your customers. So your business is like a friendly neighbor and not some forceful sales company who will stop at nothing to close a deal. Where other CRM platforms are cobbled together through acquisition, HubSpot is carefully crafted in house using a collection of proven tools, components, and systems that seamlessly work together. So your team can focus on what really matters — your customers. Learn how to grow better by connecting your people, your customers, and your business at hubspot.com.

[00:11:18] This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Safety always comes first for us. Really, that should be the case for every one of you out there as well. We use SimpliSafe, which is an advanced whole home security system. And we love it for so many reasons. It was really easy to set up. It's got built-in wifi and cellular in case your wifi goes down. It's got a backup battery in case the power goes out. It's also got a ton of gadgets, like a glass break sensor, a panic button, motion sensor, key fob, smoke detector, temperature sensor, water sensor, HD indoor and wireless outdoor cameras and more. It's comforting knowing that SimpliSafe's professional monitoring has our back 24/7 ready to dispatch police or first responders in an emergency, especially while we're on vacation or sleeping at home at night. Monitoring plans are affordable at a dollar a day. There's no long-term contract, no hidden fees. SimpliSafe's named Best Home Security of 2022 by US News and World Report, third year in a row by the way.

[00:12:09] Jen Harbinger: You can customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes at simplisafe.com/jordan. Go today and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20 percent off with interactive monitoring. Again, that's simplisafe.com/jordan.

[00:12:24] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show that is very much appreciated. We love creating it for you. All the sponsors and discount codes and everything is all in one page at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for the sponsors using the search box right there on the website as well, jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show.

[00:12:44] And now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:12:47] All right, what's next?

[00:12:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm the general manager of a flying trapeze school. And I now have to decide what to do about one of my employees, a high-level coach in his mid-30s, who has been accused of being a sexual predator, which I believe. This guy is also best friends with two of my dearest friends, but because he's so nice to them, they validate his toxic behavior. I was told that he slept with a minor and now he's messing around with a 24-year-old. He has always been super toxic, but no one can call him out because there's no evidence and no one is stepping forward. But I have serious issues with him, both personally and professionally, he helped our business survive through COVID, but he's never once shown me, his manager, any respect. He's a highly valued coach and he's very good at his job, but his reputation precedes him. Circus is very intimate. He's been coaching young women for many years, and he's been able to prey on young women because of his powerful position. The problem is I don't have enough proof to justify letting him go. And we're a small business, so we don't have an HR department or any formal processes for this kind of thing. So how do I let this employee go in the most respectful way without making enemies in the process? Signed, Grabbing The Catch Trap.

[00:13:59] Jordan Harbinger: Jesus. Okay. Look, if this guy did the things you're saying he did, then he absolutely needs to go. It's that simple. It doesn't matter if he's the most amazing coach in the world. That's the same toxic BS that keeps dangerous people in positions of power for way too long. As the manager of this school, you have a responsibility to keep it safe for your students and your employees. So there's no gray area for me here. This dude needs to be called out and removed stat.

[00:14:30] But given the nuances here, we wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to Baruch Kreiman, employment attorney and friend of the show. And the first thing Baruch said was in an at-will work state, which is the majority of states in the United States, termination is legal unless it's motivated by discrimination or retaliation against the employee. In your letter, you said, "That this guy has never once shown me, his manager, any respect," now in Baruch's view that assertion, if you sincerely hold it and it's not pretextual, that's an affirmative defense against most wrongful termination actions, even if you happen to be wrong about that particular assertion.

[00:15:08] So in other words, you don't need to prove that this guy is a sexual predator to justify termination, unless your state or the employment contract requires all terminations to be for cause. Insubordination or not respecting your manager, that is 100 percent a protected reason for termination. In other words, valid and you can let him go. So if the whole goal is to get this employee out, then there's no need to focus on the sexual harassment aspect at all. But since you don't have a formal legal or HR department, Baruch recommends starting with professional emails and maybe some coaching about the respect issue. In his view, a paper trail of two or three coaching sessions or warnings will be a great defense against a potential wrongful termination lawsuit.

[00:15:54] Also, if this employee is seeing the writing on the wall about his job, maybe at the final warning session, you can discuss a severance to allow for a graceful resignation. In that package, you could include a signed waiver of any rights to sue your school that might require an attorney to draw up, but it's possible you could find that document on an online legal service, like LegalZoom that said anyone can sue for anything. So it's never a bad idea to have insurance for business practices.

[00:16:21] So those are a few options for getting rid of this guy strategies that don't require you to be a professional sexual harassment investigator.

[00:16:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. He doesn't even need to go near that part of the problem if he doesn't want to, but we thought you might want a little more detail on how to actually have that tough conversation. So we also reached out to Julie Waters. She's an HR expert. She's also the author of the book, HR Explained: A Practical Guide to Human Resources for Small Businesses.

[00:16:47] Julie took an even harder stance here, her advice, and I'm quoting her here was to, "Run, run, run, to find this dirtbag and terminate him right now," because to use Julie's words, any minute now, a woman or worse a young girl can come forward and accuse him of inappropriate behavior. And as his employer, that accusation could also land all over you. Get him out of your life, ASAP. Julie pointed out that in employment law, there was a concept called negligent hiring and negligent retention. If you know, or should have known that this guy is a creep and you don't do anything to protect your students or your employees, you could be held responsible for his wrongdoing.

[00:17:28] And Julie confirmed exactly what Baruch said, which is that as this guy's employer, you do not have to prove any sexual wrongdoing. You can terminate him just for the lack of respect that he's shown for your leadership. That's enough. Now, Julie did point out that if you live in a right-to-work state, you might have to gather some dates and make some notes about his disrespectful behavior leading up to the termination. Just keep that to yourself in a file you can call discipline or whatever. Although I would suggest doing that no matter what state you live in, because documentation, as we all know, that's always a smart move, especially if this guy tries to push back on the termination. Or maybe claps back with a lawsuit down the road.

[00:18:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Document, document, document — my three favorite words.

[00:18:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. As far as actually having this conversation, Julie said your script could really be as simple as this, "While you're highly skilled at the technical aspects of the job, I will not tolerate a member of my team showing me disrespect the way you have. I want you to gather up your gear. I want you to leave right now. Your employment is terminated." After you say that, her advice is stop talking. This isn't a discussion. You're just informing him of your decision. You're telling him that this is what's happening.

[00:18:35] And if he asks you why, you can answer that you just told him why. Julie said that he's probably going to be angry. He might yell. He might make a scene. Your job is to stay quiet, to stay calm, and to be very non-reactive. And if he asks you to reconsider something like that, just tell him the decision is made. And then again, stop talking. This guy could surprise you and say, you know, okay and walk out because he knows that you know exactly what's going on and he doesn't want to make more of a scene.

[00:19:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The jig is up.

[00:19:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: The jig is up. Keep everything short, keep it professional. Treat him with respect as another human being. But you don't have to be nice. Most importantly in Julie's view, do not say that you are sorry. Julie also said that you'll probably be pretty nervous about this conversation leading up to it. That's totally normal. You probably won't sleep too well the night before, but in her experience, you'll feel so much relief when it's done.

[00:19:26] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely. I'm sure the weight of this decision is worse than actually doing it. Also a few of the things Julie said to keep in mind, if you need to pay this guy for a couple of weeks, or if you pay out vacation time, have that check ready for him right there. If he asks you for a reference, you can say, "Your reputation regarding your skills should serve as enough of a referral in the trapeze world." And if he throws you a curve ball question, tell him, you'll think about that. And you'll email him with an answer.

[00:19:54] In fact, all of, 100 percent of your future communication with this guy should be via email. So you have documentation. He can't twist your words around in a weird way, or come up with a different version of how things went down. In Julie's view, the only potential risk in this termination is if you had a similar situation in the past and you treated that employee differently from how you're treating this guy, then you might be seen as discriminating against him. But Julie said, she firmly believes that the risk to you regarding negligent retention is much, much higher than any risk of different treatment.

[00:20:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: That makes a lot of sense. And as for communicating all of this to your other employees, Julie's advice is just to say that there was a lack of respect, and this is not the way you run your business. You won't tolerate it from any of your staff. You won't put up with it in any form. If a couple of employees don't understand your decision or don't like it, that's fine. Your employees who share your values, which by the way, are super reasonable values — it's basically protecting your students and protecting your staff — they're going to be happy with the decision or they'll come to understand it. Because keeping somebody like this around, that's terrible for morale, it makes people feel unsafe. It might even make them respect you less. So net net, I think this is going to be a huge positive.

[00:21:09] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed, completely, Gabe. Now getting rid of this guy from your school, that's a separate question from how to prevent him from doing the same thing somewhere else. Sadly, this is what happens in a lot of cases, a toxic employee gets fired. Then he gets hired somewhere else because they don't know how bad they are. There's a term for this. It's called passing the trash. It happens a lot with teachers specifically. Gabe, now in the news, you hear about it happened with police as well. Like, "How did this guy get hired? He'd shot two teenagers—"

[00:21:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:21:36] Jordan Harbinger: "—in a department, one state away," and it's like, yeah, they let him retire and then he went down the road and worked somewhere else and they sort of knew about it, but sort of didn't care because they needed to hire people.

[00:21:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:21:47] Jordan Harbinger: And then he shot another teenager. It's like this happens all the time in different industries. So you actually have a couple of options to help prevent this from happening, passing the trash that is. One of them is to report any suspected criminal behavior to law enforcement and any appropriate agencies like the Department of Children and Families, or the licensing body for your industry if there is one. I mean, it's the circus. So maybe there's something.

[00:22:11] The other option is to disclose what happened to any prospective employers who call you for a reference. Or you can even proactively reach out to them. If I were an employer, I would want to know about this stuff too. And if it prevents more young women from being targeted or young men for that matter, then I do think that that's your responsibility as a human.

[00:22:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: So do I. There's just one big caveat here, which is, it sounds like the guy writing in has very little evidence to back up these claims. And so I do think he should be careful about how he proceeds, because look, he was told that this employee slept with a minor, which could very well be true. But that is at the end of the day, hearsay.

[00:22:48] And there's also a world where it isn't true or it's kind of true, but the facts were distorted or it was like, I don't know, sort of an ambiguous case like the person was 18. I don't know. Also, now he's messing around with a 24-year-old, I think it was okay.

[00:23:01] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not a great look, definitely fits a pattern, but also not illegal on its own. Now, if that 24-year-old is a student of your school, then that clearly crosses a line. But then the issue is that she's his student, not that she's 24, whatever qualms you might have about the age gap. So I would just be as rigorous as possible in gathering proof before you report this guy to anyone else. I don't have a lot of sympathy for this guy, personally.

[00:23:26] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's violating all kinds of boundaries, possibly violating laws as well. And he's clearly not somebody you would want as your trapeze coach, but I think you also have to balance that with a basic respect for the facts and having as much ammunition as possible. That's only going to make you more effective at stopping this potential predator.

[00:23:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a fair point. Gabe, not to defend somebody who might be a total creeper, but you are right. Hearsay, the rumor mill, they don't always create the best outcomes in these situations, but that's, what's so hard about being an employer in a situation like this. You don't want to pass the trash, but you don't always have all of the evidence you need to feel totally secure in taking out the trash.

[00:24:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:24:05] Jordan Harbinger: And how do you balance people's safety? With that person's right to a fair trial, so to speak, it's tricky. It really is. I mean, what if one of his friends is like, "Oh yeah, he likes the young ones," and it's like, okay. They're in their 20s.

[00:24:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:24:18] Jordan Harbinger: And it somehow through the game of telephone that became, he's a kid toucher. It's not entirely fair.

[00:24:24] Anyway, we're going to link to a great article that we found about handling pass-the-trash issues in the show notes. It lays out all the avenues you have, and it is a great read.

[00:24:32] Regardless, I hope this guy gets gone soon and that he isn't in a position to do this to anyone again. Good luck.

[00:24:39] Gabe, likely said the real danger here is him doing this to more people if his behavior goes unchecked. It reminds me of the Larry Nassar scandal. You know, the USA gymnastics doctor who abused, I think it was like hundreds of female athletes over the years.

[00:24:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:24:54] Jordan Harbinger: Over like decades.

[00:24:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:24:56] Jordan Harbinger: The craziest thing about that story was just how long he was able to get away with it when so many people knew. Other coaches and other people in the industry. We actually did an episode a long time ago with Rachel Denhollander, the first woman, or one of the first women to speak out publicly against Nassar. That was episode 332, a fascinating interview. That guy's in prison for life now, but he victimized so many people before somebody put their foot down, before Rachel put her foot down, actually.

[00:25:24] So many thanks to Baruch Kreiman and Julie Waters for their sage advice in this one. If you'd like to check out Julie's book, you can find it on Amazon, a terrific resource if I do say so. You can also find her on LinkedIn. We'll link to all of those in the show notes.

[00:25:36] And remember, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on stuff like — life, love, work. What you do if you're unstable son is tearing apart your family? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up at friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:25:57] All right, what's next?

[00:25:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe. I'm 20 years old and I've been in a relatively happy relationship with my boyfriend of three years. I love him and I actually see a future with him, but I can't stop fantasizing about sleeping with other men. My boyfriend is the only person I've ever been with. And I can't stand the thought of never experiencing sex with anyone else. I felt this way for over a year and a half now. And although I never acted on any of these impulses, it's only getting harder for me to ignore them. I regularly have dreams about other guys and I've had a handful of crushes throughout our relationship. At this point, the only way I can really enjoy having sex with him is if I imagine it's with someone else. I'd like to think I'd never cheat on him, but realistically, I know anyone is capable of cheating under certain circumstances. So what should I do? Is there a way to satisfy these urges without ruining my relationship? Should I even be in a relationship if I'm so easily attracted to other men? Signed, Crushing on Other Men Without Crushing the One I Love.

[00:26:56] Jordan Harbinger: Well, first of all, I understand your dilemma and I appreciate how open you're being about all of this. I actually think you're handling these impulses in a very healthy way. You're not just going out and smashing so that you can figure out how you feel. You're acknowledging these thoughts and feelings, and you're trying to figure out what they mean. You're reaching out for help in processing them. You sound like a thoughtful person, and I know that will lead you to the right decision here.

[00:27:20] So a few thoughts. First of all, you're 20 years old. You've been with your boyfriend since you were 17, you were so young when you got together and you're still so very young. So it makes perfect sense that you find yourself wanting to explore, have experiences with other people. I don't think that is weird at all. And yes, I think it's compatible with loving your boyfriend and even seeing a future with him. So that's the first thing. In my view, none of this is crazy or wildly inappropriate or makes you a bad person. I think you only get into dicey territory when you start acting on these desires in a way that is unfair to your partner.

[00:27:58] So my next thought is if it's important to you to date other people, I do think it's worth exploring that idea. Because when you, and I'm quoting you here, "Can't stop fantasizing about other men," if you can't stand the thought of never experiencing sex with anyone else, if you're developing crushes on other people and having dreams about other guys, and you can't enjoy sleeping with your boyfriend without imagining it's with somebody else. And you've felt that way for a year and a half — yeah, that's a signal worth paying attention to. That's not, "You know, oh, I'm swooning over a guy in line at Trader Joe's for 10 minutes," or, "Eh, sometimes I wonder what it would be like to go on a few dates with somebody else." This sounds to me like a much more profound need to be independent, to have romantic experiences with other people to learn more about yourself and to develop your identity a little bit more, which by the way, is exactly what you are supposed to do in your early '20s.

[00:28:51] That is what this life stage is all about — I wish I'd done more of it, and well, I think every guy does, right? Everybody probably. And what I'm hearing from your letter is that these needs of yours are starting to create a kind of, it's a secret and you have this secret inner world. Your boyfriend has no idea, and that's probably putting a lot of emotional distance between you. It probably makes you feel bad and it feels inauthentic and maybe even feel trapped. And that is no good for a relationship either.

[00:29:20] So, I'm not saying you have to break up with your boyfriend or that you have to go get it in with every dude on hinge within a half-mile radius. That sounds like a short radius, but you know, I'm looking out from the other perspective. That is your call, but at this point — depends on population density, right?

[00:29:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:29:36] Jordan Harbinger: But at this point, it's fair to say, I think it's fair to say that these needs are real. They're legitimate. And if your current relationship isn't meeting them even if it's a great relationship overall, then something has to shift.

[00:29:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree, Jordan. Something does have to shift. Either the terms of the relationship would have to open up to meet those needs, which is a big step for any relationship. Obviously, very complicated. I think that's a whole other episode. Or she just needs to be on her own for a little while and that's okay.

[00:30:04] My only caveat to that is to really make sure you understand what these new feelings are trying to tell you, because sure, fantasizing about other men that could just be a normal desire to be on your own, date other people. But if there's an aspect of this, that's like, you know, I'm avoiding intimacy with my partner by imagining someone else, or there's a problem in the relationship that's making you want to escape or something like that. Then that's important for you to know. So you're not just blindly following these impulses without having a good handle on them.

[00:30:33] And the best place to do that — surprise, surprise. That would be in therapy. That's always a great place to be when you're growing through a major life transition. But honestly, Jordan, I don't get the sense that these thoughts are a way to escape or to avoid something. I mean, they were together for three years. She sees a future with this guy. Although she also did say that the relationship, what was, it was like mostly good. So that does make me wonder, is the relationship as good as it seems? I don't know, but if there were truly deeper issues, they probably would've surfaced much sooner.

[00:31:01] So I'm with, Jordan, I say, be honest and explore these feelings, especially at your age. I know it's very painful to think about breaking up with your boyfriend to do that. And I get it, it's a very intense transit. But if you truly think that staying together might lead you to cheat one day, I mean, if you're even having that thought in the first place, then breaking up is definitely the kinder choice.

[00:31:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, for sure. Like, I said, she's done nothing wrong. These are just thoughts, but once she's regularly crushing on other people or lowkey flirting with guys when she's out or even putting herself in a situation where she could cheat, that's when this whole thing becomes problematic and she might already be dabbling in that territory a little bit already.

[00:31:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: A little bit, yeah.

[00:31:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I would also go back and listen to a couple of Feedback Fridays, where we took questions similar to yours, episodes 663 and 675. I think it'll be helpful to hear those stories right now, too. I'm going to link to both of those in the show notes for you.

[00:31:55] So figure out what these impulses are telling you, and then make a decision that honors your needs and does right by your partner, whatever that ultimately means to you. When you're ready to settle down one day, maybe even with your current boyfriend, you'll probably be pretty happy that you sewed your wild oats when you did. This is all a part of the journey of growing up, learning about yourself, and figuring out the kind of relationship and the kind of partner that you really need. So good luck.

[00:32:22] You know who won't pretend you're the cashier from Trader Joe's during sexy time? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:32:32] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. Life can be overwhelming with curve balls coming left and right, as you know, from the Feedback Friday episodes that come in that is definitely the case. Talking with somebody really helps find insights that I'm not aware of. If you're thinking, "Ah, I can talk to a friend." Let me tell you friends are great support, but friends don't replace talking to a licensed professional therapist. And besides, you're going to annoy your friends after a while. For a therapist, it's their job. Better Help is great. You can do weekly video chat, you can text, you can do phone calls. You don't have to drive anywhere. No parking. The convenience factor is huge because look, I can't make it a priority to go to a weekly in-person session for pretty much anything, especially if it's not something that's dominating my life, but when it's online, I've always got something to talk about for an hour. I always feel better just having expressed myself as well. Maybe get some ideas I hadn't thought of. Better Help has let me stick with therapy the longest, flat out. Plus it's more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours.

[00:33:28] Jen Harbinger: And our listeners get 10 percent off your first month at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:33:37] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by apartments.com. Pets can wiggle their way into the center of your life. They command your heart and your snacks. And at some point you find yourself making decisions that revolve around them, like looking for a pet-friendly place. apartments.com has helped millions of renters find their perfect place to live and has the most pet-friendly listings on the internet. So, you can find a rental with roll-worthy carpet for getting tummy rubs, a place near a park for walks, or that perfectly sunlit window sill for cozy afternoon naps. There might even be a room or two in there for you, pet person. Visit apartments.com, the place to find a pet-friendly place.

[00:34:09] Remember all sponsors and discount codes are all in one place. jordanharbinger.com/deals is where you can find it. And of course, you can search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support us.

[00:34:23] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:34:26] Alright, what's next?

[00:34:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My sister is 58, beautiful and tall, and looks amazing for her age. She had a wonderful marriage, traveled the world with her family and owned a successful business in Mexico. Then one day, everything started to deteriorate and she ended up leaving her family for her trainer after 20 years of marriage. Fast forward to today, she's now divorced and has true grown-up kids. She has a very good relationship with her ex-husband who's an amazing person whom everybody loves. They've been divorced for over 10 years. And since then she's dated the nastiest men you can imagine. Losers who have taken advantage of her people with no education or basic values, scammers and horrible men, including ex-cons. People I would've never imagined my sister dating. On top of all that, her health is also declining. She was born with cystic kidneys and she's going through renal insufficiency, which will keep worsening as time goes on. Organ transplants are very expensive in Mexico and that's only if you can get a kidney. I will probably hopefully end up donating what a mine to her. She's now dating another horrible guy whom we all can't stand. They fight every week, they break up for a few days, then he begs her for forgiveness and she goes back. She only gets in touch with me or comes over when she's not with him because I've made it very clear that I can't be around an abusive man who treats my sister so poorly. All he does is smoke weed, talk about conspiracies, and tell idiotic jokes. I can see clearly that she is completely unable to be alone, not even for a day. The thing is, I feel so bad for my sister living on this roller coaster, wasting probably the last years of her life, giving so much energy and attention to this imbecile who for sure will not be by her side in the difficult times to come. I just wish she would focus on our health and plan for the future. I've suggested to her that she seek therapy. She agrees that she needs help, but claims that it won't help because she knows how to fool the therapist. So how can I help my big sister? Signed, Saving my Sis From These Dire Straits.

[00:36:26] Jordan Harbinger: You know, it always makes me cringe chuckle when people say, "Oh, I can fool the therapist." Like, okay, maybe try not doing that then.

[00:36:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:36:32] Jordan Harbinger: How's that?

[00:36:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Try not doing that/find a therapist who won't let you do that.

[00:36:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. I mean, they also know that you're fooling, that you're BS-ing them and if they don't then find one who does, because the whole point — tell your therapist that you're going to you do that—

[00:36:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:36:43] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, ugh, I understand though — just, it's a nonsense excuse.

[00:36:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:36:47] Jordan Harbinger: It's like, "I'm already so good at that. I'm so smooth and smart." "Oh, really? Well, then why is your life a mess?" Anyway, and this is such a sad story. It must be so hard to watch your sister get caught up in these relationships to feel like she's kind of disappearing here.

[00:37:01] Gabe is so strange to me that this woman was this successful thriving person. And then one day she just falls apart.

[00:37:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:37:08] Jordan Harbinger: She leaves her amazing husband starts dating awful men, compromises her health. There's got to be more to it than that. I'm always so curious. I got to know exactly when the switch flipped. There's got to be more going on behind the scenes. Right?

[00:37:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, the only thing I can think of is that she's had these health problems, probably her entire life.

[00:37:25] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:37:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: So is it possible that she maybe had some thoughts about her mortality or something. As she got older, maybe that kicked off this crisis.

[00:37:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that could be. That would explain some of this sort of like YOLO recklessness, I guess, you'd call it.

[00:37:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:37:37] Jordan Harbinger: But I don't know those same thoughts about mortality. They could also lead you to cherish the life that you do have. So why go one way and not the other?

[00:37:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. There must have been something in her already that was activated by that crisis. And she would still have to be the kind of person who would put up with these awful men.

[00:37:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or something in her that wants to be treated the way she's being treated. Maybe a need for love and attention even if it's from these questionable sources. Maybe a little self-hatred from blowing up this really good relationship. I don't know. But then she was married to this awesome guy for 20 years. So she already did have a lot of this already. It's just so very confusing. Your sister, she's quite a mystery.

[00:38:15] So I'm actually at a bit of a loss here because it is not clear to me how the woman writing in is supposed to fundamentally change someone else, her sister.

[00:38:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Because to me, this is very similar to watching an Addict spin out, except in this case, the sister is addicted to problematic guys and addicted to not being alone, and in a way, addicted to not getting the help she needs.

[00:38:39] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And the conclusion we usually come to is you can't control the addict. Your best bet is to support them appropriately, draw clear boundaries, and take care of yourself. Because you can't make anyone do anything that they are not ready to do. And I know that is very hard to accept because you remember your sister when she was a very different person. But if she's determined to be with these awful men and ignore her health on some level, she is choosing that. And if she refuses to go to therapy and work on this, then I'm afraid it's going to be hard for you to make her wake up on your own.

[00:39:13] But you can give it one more shot. Maybe you get her ex her kids, any other close friends and family, and you guys stage a sort of intervention. You invite her over one day or you hop on Zoom or whatever, and bam — there's everyone who cares about her, telling her, "Listen, we have known you forever. We love you more than anything. We are here to give you a reality check." And you guys can even follow the same script they use in interventions with addicts. "You know, your behavior has affected me negatively in the following ways. We've found the support you need. You have to make a choice. Wake up and start taking care of yourself or waste the last few years that you have." Give everyone a chance to tell your sister how they see her, make her confront her dysfunction, and call her out when she wiggles out of a question or tries to justify her behavior.

[00:40:03] Like you said your sister knows how to fool a therapist. It almost sounds like she's kind of proud of that. So I would be prepared for her to try to do the same thing with you, but that can't happen. You have one shot here and you have to make it impossible for her to not listen.

[00:40:20] Also, I would've a couple of concrete goals for this conversation. Get her into therapy, ditch the creepy new guy, see her doctors and make sure that she's taking care of her health. Have some next steps ready to go and help her follow through on them immediately. Not next week, not in a month from now — today. And hopefully, that'll jolt your sister into waking up.

[00:40:42] But Gabe where my mind goes — and it's an uncomfortable question, but I got to ask. Do you give a sister like this, your own kidney?

[00:40:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ooh, that is a tough one. I see where you're getting at. She would be donating a kidney to a woman who let's be honest isn't really showing that she would make the best use of those extra years.

[00:41:00] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

[00:41:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't want to say she doesn't deserve it.

[00:41:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:41:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think anyone in this position deserves a chance to turn the ship around. It would be different if she were like an alcoholic or something who refused to get sober. And then it's a lot harder to literally give an organ to somebody who's going to abuse it. But yeah, it must be tricky to think about giving an organ to somebody who maybe isn't going to fully honor the amazing life she has.

[00:41:22] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I feel a little weird saying this, but I feel like that's a leverage point in this intervention. Maybe she says to her sister, "Listen, you're in trouble. You can't get a kidney in Mexico. I will donate one of mine because that's how much I love you. But you have to turn over a new leaf here. You have to drop the shady dude. You have to start going to therapy. You have to take your health seriously. Do we have a deal?"

[00:41:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's an interesting idea. Like, "I'm giving you another 20, 30 years here. You have to promise to live up to that gift," kind of thing.

[00:41:54] Jordan Harbinger: Right. To be honest, I am a little on the fence about using a kidney as leverage. I know it feels a bit sleazy in a way.

[00:42:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right, yeah.

[00:42:01] Jordan Harbinger: But maybe it's just the only Trump card in the deck right now. Maybe that's a little unethical. Maybe it's a little manipulative. I'm not really sure. I haven't maybe sat with this for long enough, but whether you pulled the kidney card or not, I would be prepared for any number of responses from your sister. You know, if she resists your help, I'd think about how you're going to respond. What role are you going to play in her life? The extent to which you're going to let her behavior affect you? Whether you can live with having given an organ to somebody who just continues to act irresponsibly, no matter what? That's all work that you have to do on your side of the equation.

[00:42:35] Those are tough questions, but they're essential ones when you're dealing with a difficult sibling like this. But I do hope you get through to her. I really do. She could course-correct here and reclaim some of the amazing life that she once had. And we're wishing you and your sister and all four of your kidneys, all the best, no matter whose body they're in.

[00:42:54] All right, next up.

[00:42:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe. I'm from the Philippines. And as you know, Fredinand Marcos Jr. has just been elected president here. Many of his supporters are victims of decades of disinformation that has only gotten worse in recent years. Some of these supporters are my immediate family and I'm seriously considering breaking contact with them. I don't want to hear about how great the Marcos family is and how I'm brainwashed. I don't believe that they were misled or just too good natured to be skeptical about everything they see on the Internet. Not anymore. The correct information was always available to them, but they still choose to believe the poorly made YouTube videos, the spliced clips on TikTok, the sketchy news articles and the vitriolic rants of some random verified Facebook account. I've heard you and some of the guests on your show tell us to still be open to people like this, to engage them with curiosity, not to demonize them, that isolating them, just radicalizes them even more. But why are we the ones who always have to adjust to them? Why can't they just stop being stupid? Signed, The Dismal Diplomat.

[00:43:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's a fair question. And I appreciate your honesty about these tons of people in the states on both sides of the aisle, feel the same way about their friends and family. This is a universal thing, unfortunately, and it is a valid point. In a world of disinformation, often poorly executed disinformation aimed at people who should, quote-unquote, "know better." Why is the onus on critical thinkers to keep the door open, rather than on people who fall for dumb ass, 8chan propaganda and half-baked Facebook conspiracies? When you said you've heard guests on the show say to stay open to folks like this, you were probably referring to Dr. Steven Hassan.

[00:44:34] Dr. Hassan as many of you know is a mental health counselor, who's been writing and talking about undue influence for over 40 years. He's the author of Freedom of Mind and Combating Cult Mind Control, both great books. And he's also been on the show a bunch of times. So we reached out to him to ask what he makes of all of this.

[00:44:51] And Dr. Hassan's response was, bottom line, he thinks about mind control as a mental illness. It's a man-made mental illness in his view. We're not born with having a sort of dissociative identity when it comes to this stuff. That's been programmed online through the kinds of sources your family has bought, hook, line, and sinker. So Dr. Hassan believes that if you are in a controlled state of mind, where you're thinking is black and white, all or nothing, good versus evil, us versus them, and you are programmed with phobias against any doubt or criticism, programmed to distrust any other media, his position is that people who are free that's you, in this case, have the moral responsibility to exert flexibility.

[00:45:35] And I'll say that again because I find that argument quite fascinating. People who are free have the moral responsibility to exert flexibility. In other words, to adapt to the person who has this sort of mental illness, this informational dissociative identity disorder, if you will. Because Dr. Hassan believes that that mindset, it's fixable.

[00:45:58] Now you might not agree with that. And that's okay. I personally think it's fair to have different approaches to people like this different tolerances for people's ignorance or bias. That's totally up to you. I also think, and I'm sure Dr. Hassan would agree that the relationship you have with these people and the kind of people they are apart from their beliefs, those matter a lot too.

[00:46:18] It's more fair to write off some a-hole in your office who gets his news from freaking, 4chan than it is to write off a decent and loving sibling, who's just confused about the truth, but I do think Dr. Hassan is making a powerful point here, which is that the person who's free, they have a huge advantage. They have some responsibility to use that freedom as well as they can. And that means extending some patients and grace, to people who don't have the same freedom.

[00:46:46] In Dr. Hassan's opinion, the worst thing you can do with a relative or friend is, you know, call them names and cut them off because it's too annoying or upsetting for you to interact. Instead, he prefers to ask people hypothetical questions to gently get them to open up. Like, what if the situation were reversed? Would you want anybody to make an effort to point out to you that the things you're believing don't make any sense? You know, stuff like that.

[00:47:09] So from Dr. Hassan's perspective, we are ethically bound to help others. He compared it to walking on the beach and seeing someone caught in a riptide. Now, you can look at that person and go, "Man, how can that person be such an idiot? There's obviously a dangerous current. There's a sign right there." Or you could go, "Wow. That person clearly did not know there was a dangerous current, I better call for help."

[00:47:30] Now, you don't necessarily have to dive into the riptide or make it your full-time job to save people from drowning, but you can get professionals on the scene. You can find the right sources of support. And to continue this weird metaphor for a second, if you ever see somebody walking out into the water and there's a shark warning, you can say, "Hey careful, there's a shark warning." In other words, keep the line of communication open, do your part to help open up their worldview, and use that ethical influence to gently pull people back into the world of facts and critical thinking.

[00:48:00] So there you have it right from the horse's mouth and if you feel differently again, that's okay. It's your right to decide how to handle these family members. I also don't think you need to babysit these people 24/7 or give them carte blanche to do or say awful things. But I do think it's worth tapping into some empathy for these folks because you're more equipped to do that than they are right now.

[00:48:22] And if they ever do express some willingness to look at things from a new angle, you'll probably be glad to have that door open. We're also going to link to Dr. Hassan's list of the 10 errors that people make to justify not doing anything, to help people who are caught up in mind control. That's from his book, Freedom of Mind. We'll link to both of those in the show notes for you. Those will be great reads for you right now. Good luck with this.

[00:48:44] Gabe, I can't believe — when I see that Ferdinand Marcos Jr. was elected. I'm like, "Are you kidding me? Pop a history book, like just one."

[00:48:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:48:52] Jordan Harbinger: It's unbelievable. This would be like — ugh, I don't even want to use a Hitler example, but it would really be like people reelecting an obvious tyrant who ruined the whole country. There are cliches about his father going back to decades and people are what, "Oh, I changed my mind on this guy because of revisionist history that I got from social media." It's both pathetic and terrifying at the same time. I really feel bad for people who are not sucked into this and have to live in it.

[00:49:16] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week. And of course, everybody who listened, thank you so much. Go back and check out Desmond Shum and Steve Rambam if you haven't yet.

[00:49:25] If you want to know how I managed to book all these incredible folks for the show, it's about software, systems, and tiny habits in managing my network. I'm teaching you how to do that same thing. Check out our Six-Minute Networking course. The course is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty and how to use all of those systems to make it not feel like any work. The drills take just a few minutes a day. Really, ignore this stuff at your own peril. I wish I knew it 10, 20 years ago now. It's been absolutely invaluable, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:49:58] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found@jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.

[00:50:13] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Baruch Kreiman and Julie Waters and Dr. Hassan. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:50:49] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, we've got a trailer of our interview with Cesar Milan, the dog whisperer. Cesar tells us how he went from impoverished Sinoloan kid to homeless immigrant to world-famous dog training guru. We'll also learn how to communicate better with animals, by understanding the priority of their senses compared to our own.

[00:51:09] Cesar Millan: When I was 10 years old, I told my mom, "Mom, when I grow old, I'm going to be a drug dealer," and she— [swooshed]

[00:51:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow.

[00:51:16] Cesar Millan: You know—

[00:51:16] Jordan Harbinger: Slapped you across your face.

[00:51:17] Cesar Millan: Slapped me across the face and say, "If you want to kill me, that's what you do." And when I was 13 years old, I told my mom, "Mom, do you think I can be the best dog trainer in the world." She turned around, she said, "You can be whatever you want."

[00:51:29] So I spent Christmas and new year's at the border trying to jump it.

[00:51:32] Jordan Harbinger: You get this reputation as the guy who could walk 30 dogs.

[00:51:36] Cesar Millan: That's when I came, so that was in San Diego.

[00:51:39] Jordan Harbinger: You were kind of this underground guy for a while that could walk all these dogs.

[00:51:43] Cesar Millan: Yeah, in LA.

[00:51:43] Jordan Harbinger: In LA.

[00:51:44] Cesar Millan: Yeah.

[00:51:44] Jordan Harbinger: With no leash and the gang bangers are hanging out and like, there goes the crazy guy with all the dogs.

[00:51:49] Cesar Millan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:49] Jordan Harbinger: Don't mess with the guy with the dogs.

[00:51:51] Cesar Millan: My customers were NBA players, you know, NFL players.

[00:51:56] Jordan Harbinger: So you're worried—

[00:51:56] Cesar Millan: Nicolas Cage—

[00:51:57] Jordan Harbinger: —at this point.

[00:51:57] Cesar Millan: Yeah.

[00:51:58] Jordan Harbinger: Nicolas Cage?

[00:51:59] Cesar Millan: Nicolas Cage.

[00:52:00] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:52:00] Cesar Millan: Vin Diesel.

[00:52:01] Jordan Harbinger: How did they hear about you?

[00:52:02] Cesar Millan: You know, the Mexican guy in the street.

[00:52:05] Jordan Harbinger: You're washing limos and you're like, "Yeah, I want to be on TV."

[00:52:07] Cesar Millan: Yeah.

[00:52:08] Jordan Harbinger: People must have been like, "Okay buddy."

[00:52:10] Cesar Millan: Most of them, I was first interviewed by the LA Times. At the end of the conversation, the lady says, "So what would you like to do next?" I said, "Well, I would like to have a TV show. So I manifested the TV show way before producers came and I had no idea. I didn't know that dishonesty part in Hollywood, you better have a good pack of lawyers.

[00:52:30] Jordan Harbinger: For more from Cesar Milan, including how animal behavior is reflective of their human owners, check out episode 162 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.