670: Vanessa Van Edwards | The Science of Succeeding with People

670: Vanessa Van Edwards | The Science of Succeeding with People

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Nissan. Why wait for tomorrow? Today is made for thrill.

[00:00:05] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:00:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: Men get such a bad rap for wanting to see women with skin. Actually, the hottest women did not show skin, but the hottest men did. I asked my researcher, I was like, "No, this cannot be right. Like we got to go back." So the men who had their shirts off, who had low-cut shirts, who were like in a towel, those were the hottest men by far, but the women who showed a lot of cleavage, showed a lot of leg, nope, they did not. So the hottest women did not show a lot of skin.

[00:00:34] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with scientists and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional Emmy-nominated comedian, mafia enforcer, Russian spy, or hostage negotiator. And each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better thinker.

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[00:01:28] Today, one from the vault, with my good friend, Vanessa Van Edwards. She's a behavioral investigator, body language expert, and author, and of course, friend of the show. We're going to talk about the science of popularity, different types of attraction in both the personal and professional realm, nonverbal signals using blind date research, and what we can learn about people from their photographs, especially on dating sites. There's a whole lot more in this one. So enjoy this throwback episode with Vanessa Van Edwards. 

[00:01:56] So you're a behavioral scientist. Is that fair? 

[00:01:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Investigator, researcher. 

[00:02:01] Jordan Harbinger: Got it, got it. 

[00:02:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: Creepy people watcher.

[00:02:02] Jordan Harbinger: Creepy people watcher — yeah, sign me up for that club. 

[00:02:06] Tell me about some of the studies that you've been doing recently, because, well, what I like about what you do is you don't just go, "Hmm, this sounds like a cool thing that I should pretend is true. And then write a book about it." You actually test some of what you're doing here. 

[00:02:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So what I try to do mostly is look for puzzles, especially puzzles, where we have this idea that something could work, but we're not sure how or what's the action steps. So like for example, we hear all the time about first impressions. Oh my goodness, there's so many articles about it. We talk about it. I thought, "Okay. We talk about real-life first impressions. We talk about digital first impressions, but how about the phone," right? 

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah, sure. 

[00:02:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: I'm on the phone all day long. You do podcasts. Like my first impression was that stupid comment I made a few seconds ago, right? I'm like, how about just audio? 

[00:02:49] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:02:49] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I was like, okay, there's very little studies on this, but that is a very practical thing for people who spend all day on the phone. What if we took the first impression on the phone, which is just, "Hello."

[00:02:59] Jordan Harbinger: Hello. Yeah. 

[00:03:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right, right, hey, whatever— 

[00:03:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:03:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: You took that and you tried different variables with it. So for example, if someone power posed, they stood on their hands on their hips and real broad. So right now I'm real broad— 

[00:03:10] Jordan Harbinger: Or hands-free. 

[00:03:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: Hands-free. 

[00:03:12] Jordan Harbinger: Like this. 

[00:03:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: Superman, starfish, whatever. And you're like, "Hello." Does that change if you then go into defeated posing? So you cross your arms over your chest. You're like, "Hello, right? So like, for example, for people who are listening, I'm going to do a hello with a couple of different microexpressions. And I want you to see if I sound different to you. 

[00:03:27] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:03:27] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So this is my broad happiness microexpression, "Hello." Now I'm going to do a sadness microexpression. This is the most depressing face I can make, "Hello." 

[00:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: It's different. 

[00:03:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's a little bit different. 

[00:03:38] Jordan Harbinger: It's different. Yeah. 

[00:03:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So we recorded the same people doing different forms of hello, body language, and microexpressions — and then we asked random participants and thank goodness we have lovely people who play in our lab, to rate these people on charisma, intelligence, and likability. 

[00:03:54] Jordan Harbinger: So hard without seeing them. Can people tell when they're not looking is the question. 

[00:03:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: You'd think it's hard, but people are like, "Oh yeah, this person sucks. They suck." Like people have no problem, like just snap judging. 

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: So their confidently making that judgment. 

[00:04:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: Confidently. And what we do is we have it split up so that you don't obviously know you're listening to the same person. 

[00:04:11] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:04:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: We sort of have like sort of blind trial. And so we just asked someone, "Listen to this person answer the phone. How likable are they on a scale of one to 10?" People rate them. After multiple trials, we have to do multiple trials with it. We found that there are distinct differences between the microexpressions and body language you make and the impressions that people have of you. So, for example, one of the big ones was anger, specifically, the anger microexpression. So anger, do we talk— 

[00:04:36] Jordan Harbinger: I'm good at that one. 

[00:04:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's a natural state for you? 

[00:04:39] Jordan Harbinger: It's a macro expression actually. 

[00:04:40] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. Like if you tighten your eyebrows and you harden your lips, it changes the flow of oxygen. So if you say, "Hello," like that's a very harsh— 

[00:04:49] Jordan Harbinger: Because you're getting a physical manifestation of that. It's not just your mindset, it's the tension in your vocal cords and all that stuff shows up.

[00:04:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. And that came across as lower in likeability because we don't want to be friends with someone who's very— 

[00:05:02] Jordan Harbinger: Story of my life. 

[00:05:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right? But higher in confidence. 

[00:05:06] Jordan Harbinger: Really? 

[00:05:06] Vanessa Van Edwards: And that's an interesting one. 

[00:05:08] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's, I think why a lot of guys start off with the scowl and you look at magazines like Maxim — basically for kids. And if you're reading that, get rid of that crap. Those guys are all scowling and looking mean because it looks masculine or cool or confident, but it's a more basic interpretation of that emotion. 

[00:05:24] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I think it's what we think of as masculine. 

[00:05:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:05:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right, so like, I'm very interested in like how we perceive masculinity or femininity. And so if you think about anger specifically, a man who is angry, it means that he feels confident in whatever his opinion is. So in a way, anger is sort of a symptom of confidence. And that's why I think, and I don't know why people in our study perceived the angry hello as being very confident. 

[00:05:49] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. 

[00:05:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: So these are the kinds of studies that I like to do because I find them very practical in the sense of like, if you're in a bad mood, should you pick up the phone? Right? If you are feeling like at the top of your game and you're really happy, is that going to help you make a sales call? So I think if you just think about— 

[00:06:05] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, my gut says, yes. 

[00:06:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: My gut says yes too, and that was my hypothesis. 

[00:06:09] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:06:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: So we're still running when the last trial of the experiment. 

[00:06:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, good. 

[00:06:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: So we're still running it because I want to see. So we do kind of crazy experiments like that.

[00:06:16] Jordan Harbinger: Let me know if you need more angry guys, I'll volunteer— 

[00:06:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: People will know it's you. People will know. If I have a Jordan, if I have you doing all the facial expressions, people will be like, "This is f*cking Jordan Harbinger." 

[00:06:25] Jordan Harbinger: This is the a-hole microexpression. I recognize that voice. 

[00:06:29] What about power posing? You mentioned that. 

[00:06:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it. 

[00:06:32] Jordan Harbinger: We interviewed Amy Cuddy. She's got one of the most popular TED Talks of all time. However, what we've now read in Scientific American Mind and other reputable places is that, "Hey, nobody's been able to reproduce these results that supposedly came about in this study." I'm not saying Amy Cuddy did this on purpose or anything like that. I'm just saying, I think there's some flaw in the theory here.

[00:06:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So we had the exact same problem. This is very sad. And I really like Amy Cuddy's — she has many other studies. Like this is not the only one. 

[00:06:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:06:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: We were teaching it, we would do all kinds of exercises with it. It was originally in my book. 

[00:07:04] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: And when all this came out, we decided to remove the slides. We decided to remove it from my book. And so when I dug into the research on this to see, is there any truth other than this one study, that's not replicated? What I realized is I think that people are not seeing what she was trying to say, which is that there is a universal gesture of pride. So for example, separate research from the University of British Columbia found that athletes across cultures make the same body language when they win or lose a race.

[00:07:31] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, right. The whole blind— 

[00:07:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:07:33] Jordan Harbinger: —Olympian runner— 

[00:07:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:07:34] Jordan Harbinger: —doing the same thing. 

[00:07:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. So I say to myself, "Okay. Maybe it doesn't change your testosterone levels. Okay." But we do know that universally when you feel pride, you take up space, you expose your torso. And when you feel defeated, you crumble in. That is a very helpful nugget, no matter if it increases your testosterone levels or not. 

[00:07:54] Jordan Harbinger: Sure, right. 

[00:07:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: We decided to — we do not teach power posing at all. What we do is we've taken out the hormone references and I think it is important to understand how much space you take up in the world indicates to others and yourself, how confident you feel. 

[00:08:07] Jordan Harbinger: Sure, the whole taking up space, nonverbal communication— 

[00:08:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[00:08:10] Jordan Harbinger: —masculine and feminine body language and things like that, definitely still holds up. 

[00:08:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: And the hard part is, is that we — and we don't have to get too much into the science of academia, but this is why I think that it's so hard to do real good research. I had a choice in my career and I graduated from college and it was like, "Okay, do I go get a Master's and a PhD and run a real research science—" 

[00:08:31] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:08:31] Vanessa Van Edwards: "With grants and I get academically, you know, published or do I open up shop right now? And instead of having 36 seniors in college who take an experiment, have 22,000 people around the world take it." And so I've decided to — they're known in academia because the pressure there to falsify results or change your hypothesis or— 

[00:08:53] Jordan Harbinger: Publish or perish is the thing they say there? 

[00:08:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, publish or perish. 

[00:08:55] Jordan Harbinger: I don't want to do either of those things.

[00:08:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: No. So that I think is one of the things where I think that there's a new — I'm hoping that we can usher in a new area of citizen science research with big data, right? Like 20,000 people, lots of different demos, right? Like not all one age group. I mean— 

[00:09:11] Jordan Harbinger: True, yeah. 

[00:09:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: —we know so much about college seniors. And I think that, you know, psychology— 

[00:09:15] Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. 

[00:09:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: —specifically people who need extra credit in psychology classes. I guess, we know that— 

[00:09:21] Jordan Harbinger: Those genotypes are completely maps. 

[00:09:23] Vanessa Van Edwards: We know that so well, but like the results are different if you ask a 45-year-old woman. I mean, they're going to be different. 

[00:09:29] Jordan Harbinger: True. 

[00:09:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: The problem is we have to try to find research where they're actually testing a real percent of the population. 

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's really hard to do. Well, here has to be— 

[00:09:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Extremely hard to do. 

[00:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: There has to be capitalists' motivations— 

[00:09:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:09:39] Jordan Harbinger: —in there where— 

[00:09:40] Vanessa Van Edwards: Maybe Elon Musk will change that. 

[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, Elon, get on it, man. 

[00:09:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: Come on. 

[00:09:42] Jordan Harbinger: Fund some research. 

[00:09:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: Come on. Catch up.

[00:09:44] Jordan Harbinger: One of the reasons I love your work so much is because you hate the words or the advice, "Be yourself, find your passion, be more authentic." 

[00:09:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So I was one of those kids in school. So I hated camp, I hated recess, like all the things that other kids loved— 

[00:09:58] Jordan Harbinger: Who hates recess? 

[00:09:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: —like were just like torture, oh my god—

[00:10:02] Jordan Harbinger: And kittens. 

[00:10:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: I hated it because I just like did not get along with other kids or I was just like really shy. And so my parents, being very — trying to be as supportive as they could, they would say like, "Be yourself." 

[00:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Thanks, mom. 

[00:10:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Just be nice to the other kids. 

[00:10:17] Jordan Harbinger: Tried that and got beat up. 

[00:10:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And then, once you got into the dating world, it was— 

[00:10:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Vanessa Van Edwards: "Be authentic and someone will love you for you." And I would look at this advice and just be like, "This is impossible and it means nothing." 

[00:10:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:10:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: And so I like to dig into like, what does that actually mean from a scientific perspective? And for me, that means breaking down authenticity or passion or being nice into actual action steps in science. 

[00:10:41] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. I would love to hear about that because, of course, when I hear and what I translate, 'be yourself' to mean is, "Be as comfortable around this perfect stranger and have the same sort of emotional triggers that you have on your friends and family who've known you for years, except somehow magically do that in the first three minutes of you meeting this other person." 

[00:11:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes exactly. 

[00:11:00] Jordan Harbinger: Which is literally— 

[00:11:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: Magic. 

[00:11:01] Jordan Harbinger: —impossible. It's actually impossible to do. 

[00:11:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: I totally agree. So I think this is the perfect time to talk about the science of popularity. 

[00:11:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. 

[00:11:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: I was always kind of fascinated by the cool kids in school.

[00:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: Who wasn't? That was what made them cool. 

[00:11:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: I know. 

[00:11:12] Jordan Harbinger: They had nothing else going on with them. 

[00:11:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: They have like this cloud of amazingness, right? 

[00:11:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:11:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: They would just like walk around and everyone be them. 

[00:11:19] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:11:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: I swear to you, they would wear like whatever, overalls, slap bracelets — and like everyone, the next day was wearing it. 

[00:11:24] Jordan Harbinger: You clearly grew up in the same time as me.

[00:11:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying. 

[00:11:28] Jordan Harbinger: What is it? DayGlow. Was that—? 

[00:11:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, DayGlow. 

[00:11:30] Jordan Harbinger: DayGlow. 

[00:11:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: And like, I wore so much glitter for a couple of years. Like, I still have it in like sheets and suitcases. 

[00:11:37] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. There's so many inappropriate comments in there. 

[00:11:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: Didn't you have that problem? 

[00:11:41] Jordan Harbinger: Not with the glitter. 

[00:11:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: Really? 

[00:11:43] Jordan Harbinger: No. Glitter? No. 

[00:11:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: Come on. They had like the roll-on glitter sticks you that probably — no? 

[00:11:47] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[00:11:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: You're like shaking your head. 

[00:11:49] Jordan Harbinger: I got beat up enough in middle school. I didn't need to put on glitter. 

[00:11:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: No roll-on glitter for you? 

[00:11:52] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[00:11:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I actually found like an old tube of it in my childhood home. And I was like, "I'm going to wear this." And my mom was like, "It's probably toxic by now." 

[00:12:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:12:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: This was like 20 years ago. 

[00:12:02] Jordan Harbinger: Or was always toxic.

[00:12:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Anyway, I was always kind of interested with the mysteriousness of the cool kids. And so I finally found this study that looked at the science of popularity. What they did is they went to high schools and they surveyed kids for their popularity rankings, why certain kids were popular. They followed them — that's kind of creepy.

[00:12:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:12:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: It sounds like terrible when I said that out loud. They observed the children in their natural habitat. 

[00:12:27] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. 

[00:12:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: So they found — can you guess what was the distinguishing factor that made the popular kids popular? 

[00:12:34] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, there's probably a lot, but the distinguishing factor? 

[00:12:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, there was a couple of your right, but like one of the big ones.

[00:12:40] Jordan Harbinger: No, I don't know. I don't know. 

[00:12:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: So they found, the first one they found, I dug into it more, was that the most popular kids smiled the most during the day. 

[00:12:48] Jordan Harbinger: Actually that surprises me. 

[00:12:49] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. Wait, wait, wait. I was kind of bummed by that actually. 

[00:12:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:12:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like when I first read it, I was like, "Wah, wah," okay, I don't want to like smile at everyone on the street. Like I knew that. Okay. Like it kind of bummed me out. I thought I was boring. 

[00:13:01] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:13:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: What they researched second, was that the distinguishing factor between what makes a kid popular is that they like the most other students.

[00:13:09] Jordan Harbinger: That also surprises me. 

[00:13:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: That one surprised me. So it wasn't actually that they were most liked, although they were, the popular kids themselves actually liked the most of their other classmates.

[00:13:20] Jordan Harbinger: It's like Dale Carnegie's be interested in other people to get them interested in you. 

[00:13:24] Vanessa Van Edwards: It was sort of like finally the science version of this. And for me, it was the first time where I got a practical — like even Dale Carnegie, and I love his work, "Be interested to be interesting." Okay. 

[00:13:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:13:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. I like it. 

[00:13:36] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds more clever maybe than it is.

[00:13:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And it still sounds a little fuzzy to me. But, "Like more people," now that's something that I can work with. Because specifically growing up, I was afraid of everyone. I was afraid of everyone. I was very pessimistic. I always sort of would assume the bad. I would assume that people didn't like me. I would assume that they would hurt me. I would assume that they would reject me. And so thinking about, "Wait a minute, like this isn't actually trying to get them to like me. It's actually, how can I find a way to like them." That was something that was very specific. So now in the last few years, a lot of what I do when I talk about likeability is finding ways that you yourself can actually find something attractive about someone else.

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: This is interesting because when I was in middle school — not the greatest years of, well, anyone's life, probably. Even the cool kids in middle school are like, "Oh, that was so awful." But when I went to high school— 

[00:14:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:14:26] Jordan Harbinger: I had started lifting weights in middle school and it started to become a really good athlete in high school. And then, you know how you get to reinvent yourself in high school? 

[00:14:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh, yeah. 

[00:14:33] Jordan Harbinger: I kind of pulled the trigger on, not only am I going to be a good athlete, but I'm also going to be like one of those smart geeky kids. And so I managed to straddle the fence between those worlds, which in high school works for the first time in your entire life. 

[00:14:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes.

[00:14:48] Jordan Harbinger: And it was an accident. It wasn't some grand plan. But it does make sense that you have to like the most amount of people because I decided it's cool to like the nerdy, geeky— 

[00:14:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[00:14:56] Jordan Harbinger: —people now, because I'm in that world. But also I have to like my teammates— 

[00:15:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[00:15:00] Jordan Harbinger: —and all my teammates' friends and all the other people on the sports teams, because I'm on the team too. I'm not just going to dislike all these other folks. So I ended up with this great number of people that I liked and that turned out — I still had the self-worth issues where I was like, "They're going to figure out—" 

[00:15:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: For sure. 

[00:15:15] Jordan Harbinger: "—I'm not one of the cool kids." 

[00:15:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:15:16] Jordan Harbinger: Like the imposter syndrome. But later on towards the end of high school, you know, when you do the yearbook thing— 

[00:15:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:15:21] Jordan Harbinger: —and all that stuff,, I found out like, "Wow, a lot of people really like me that I'm surprised even knew who I was."

[00:15:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. And so, in a way, when you hit high school and you have these two interests that emerged, your amount of people that you liked doubled. 

[00:15:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah. Sure, easily. 

[00:15:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Easily, or at least. And so all of a sudden you're liking all these people because it's okay for you to like them, right? It's okay to like the nerds or whatever. 

[00:15:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's okay. Like the jocks that also made it then okay for them to like you. And so what they found was is the smile and nod in the hallway was actually a very important indicator of popularity. So the smiles, the recognition smiles, they were not suck-up smiles. They were not, "I'm happy all the time" smiles. They were specifically like, "Hey, how are you?" 

[00:16:02] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: That was what indicated popularity. And that to me, I was like, "Okay, like now we're talking." What's interesting about that also is it matched our Shark Tank research. 

[00:16:11] Jordan Harbinger: Shark Tank research? 

[00:16:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. I don't know if you have a lot of entrepreneurial listeners— 

[00:16:16] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:16:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: —but I love Shark Tank. 

[00:16:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:16:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I was like, "What are the body language patterns in Shark Tank? You know, what can we look at?" So I had one of my researchers, Jose Pena, looked at 497, all of the pitches on Shark Tank. 

[00:16:28] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. 

[00:16:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: We watched a lot of Shark Tank. He watched a lot of Shark Tank. So he analyzed all of the pitches, 495 or 497 of them and looked for body language patterns. And what we found was that successful entrepreneurs typically walk down that hallway, the doors open, and they would take their place on the carpet. And usually, they would smile and nod at one or two of the sharks. And we found that, that somehow it indicates a kind of congeniality. It hooks that shark in, not every time but inevitably, usually, those were one of the last — they were one of the sharks to make an offer or one of the last sharks to go out. And I was like, this is the same thing as a science popularity article. In a way, if I were to see you and be like, "Hey," right? and smile and nod at you. I'm saying like, "I see you. I hear you. You're my friend." It happens in Shark Tank. It happens in high school. It's a very kind of easy thing to think about, I think. 

[00:17:18] Jordan Harbinger: So then, there's a little takeoff from that, a little segue from that, I feel like you would be well-served if you're trying to persuade a group of people to look for the person who's going to be most receptive to also liking you back. For example, on Shark Tank, Cuban will still be like, "Oh, I liked you for a second. I'm still out. Your idea sucks and you're a fraudster and I hate everything about you." 

[00:17:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. I love when he does that. 

[00:17:38] Jordan Harbinger: Same with Mr. Wonderful, for example, but you could probably really get away with doing that with Robert Herjavec because he just feels bad, even if he hates your product— 

[00:17:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:17:48] Jordan Harbinger: —and then invest in stuff that he totally— 

[00:17:49] Vanessa Van Edwards: And he will give his money to you. 

[00:17:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. He'll be like, "Here's the 300 grand because I don't want you to feel bad about yourself. 

[00:17:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: A hundred percent. So I think of it a little differently. Maybe a little bit more of a positive way, that's like a terrible way to say it. 

[00:17:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:17:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: But I think of it like who is the person in this group or in this room who's most likely to go grab a coffee with me. 

[00:18:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sure. 

[00:18:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like, so I have gotten in the habit, like at conferences or at parties, I would go and sort of be like, "Oh, what's my opening line? Like what do I say? Where do I stand?" 

[00:18:12] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:18:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: And what I found is that if I could find someone who I felt comfortable saying, "Hey, you want to go eat something or grab something from the bar?" that was actually the best way for me to show liking. So now I'm the person that every conference, who's like, "Hey, come sit with me. Hey, do you want to sit here?" Like I used to be — you know, like when you're getting a meal at a conference, people are like wandering around the tables, like looking for someone to sit. It is the same thing in the cafeteria. So I now will say, "Hey, are you looking for a seat? Come sit with me. Come join us. 

[00:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: Make eye contact with people who look lost.

[00:18:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:18:42] Jordan Harbinger: That's an easy one. 

[00:18:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: I have made that my mission, I have made more friends that way, more contacts that way in just trying to cold approach someone. 

[00:18:50] Jordan Harbinger: I agree with that. The more people you can rescue at a mixer or a conference, the more you're going to have essentially your little tribe. 

[00:18:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:18:58] Jordan Harbinger: Because if you meet people at a conference, it's their first year there and you say, "Hey, we're doing dinner tonight. Do you want to come?" You can have dinner with 35— 

[00:19:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's right. 

[00:19:06] Jordan Harbinger: —freaking people and you're the leader of that group. And it stays that way for years and years. 

[00:19:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:19:10] Jordan Harbinger: Same thing with speakers at events. If they're like, "I'm in Malibu at this event, and I've never been here," and you go, "Look, me and some of the other speakers are going to go grab something, or me and some of the — do you want to come with us? They'd love to meet you." They're just like, "Good. I don't have to go back to my hotel and watch CNN for three extra hours." 

[00:19:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. And so there's also some practical tools here is one thing you should always know, always when you go to events is you should always know the best coffee in the area. 

[00:19:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There you go. 

[00:19:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: If you say to someone, "Hey, like there's a really good coffee place. It's like three blocks away. It's better than the Starbucks in this joint. Like, do you want to go get some?" Almost always, they'll be like, "Oh really?" And you're like, "Yeah, it's really good." So know the best coffee place in the area. 

[00:19:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yelp can help with that, by the way. You don't have to be there before and fake it. 

[00:19:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Or you could say, Jordan, "I saw that on Yelp. This place got high ratings." 

[00:19:55] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Yeah. You could do that. 

[00:19:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. You could do that. 

[00:19:57] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's a little bit more— 

[00:19:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh my god. 

[00:19:59] Jordan Harbinger: Back to the original theme of authenticity. 

[00:20:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank you. 

[00:20:02] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. 

[00:20:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: You're like, "Just lie about it." 

[00:20:04] Jordan Harbinger: I'm learning so much right now. 

[00:20:06] Vanessa Van Edwards: I do human lie detection, Jordan, so I try not to encourage people to just like totally fake it. 

[00:20:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, by I fake it, I just mean you can go somewhere with it that you haven't been before.

[00:20:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: Sure. 

[00:20:13] Jordan Harbinger: I think a lot of people when they're networking or doing any kind of relationship development, they feel the sense of imposter syndrome when they first start which is going up to your last example of meeting somebody or looking someone in the eye and inviting them to sit with you. A lot of people are afraid to be the person who says, "Why don't we all go get lunch right now?

[00:20:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:20:30] Jordan Harbinger: Because they don't want them to go, "Well, we already ate." And then it's like, "Damn it. I knew I shouldn't have said that," and you pull the Chris Farley— 

[00:20:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Totally. 

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: —facepalm type thing. 

[00:20:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I agree with you. And actually, it's happened to me multiple times where I'll say, "Hey, do you want a coffee?" and they're like, "Oh, I already got coffee."

[00:20:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:20:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: But, and almost always, we like to be liked, right? We like to be invited to places. Remember that that is actually a gift just asking someone that. 

[00:20:52] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:20:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: And so oftentimes they might say no, but like you've just gained an ally. 

[00:20:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there's reciprocity there still. 

[00:20:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, for sure. So know the best coffee places. Know the hidden lunch spots. And also I think that personality-wise, I don't know if you want to talk about the science personality, but I love the science personality and openness is like— 

[00:21:07] Jordan Harbinger: Science of personality? 

[00:21:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: Science personality. 

[00:21:09] Jordan Harbinger: All right, okay. 

[00:21:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So like openness is one of the five personality traits and I'm a very high open person. I like trying new things. I like the adventure. I like people who are also high open. So my best friends, my husband, like people who are close to me are high open. So I try to attract that— 

[00:21:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:21:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: —by also appealing to that part of their personality. So I will say, "Hey, look, I read, there's a secret taco spot about a mile away. I have no idea if it's even going to be good. Do you have any desire to like an adventure with me over lunch?" The right people will say yes. 

[00:21:42] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: But people who are like, "Oh, I don't know. 

[00:21:45] Jordan Harbinger: Secret tacos? 

[00:21:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: Uber. 

[00:21:46] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds dangerous. 

[00:21:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know, people do say no to that. 

[00:21:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:21:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I'm okay with that because the people who are like, "Oh, what? Secret tacos?" I'm like, "You're my person," right? 

[00:21:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:21:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like, you're my person. We're going to have better conversation. We're going to get along the way better. So I actually use it as a measure of how I'm going to get along with someone. I think that really helps. 

[00:22:05] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Vanessa Van Edwards. We'll be right back.

[00:22:12] This episode is sponsored in part by MUD\WTR. MUD\WTR is a coffee alternative with four adaptogenic mushrooms — very fancy — and ayurvedic herbs. You know how I ended at Woo? I am, y'all. It really does the trick. It's got lion's mane, chaga, cordyceps, which offer a huge range of benefits. It's got one-seventh of the caffeine of a premium cup of coffee. That's what I'm here for. You get the energy and focus without the crash or the anxiety. I am super caffeine sensitive. So I take MUD\WTR in the afternoon when I'm craving a coffee, but I don't want the jitters that come with it. It comes in powder form, smells really good. It's like a mix of hot cocoa and chai. The way I like to prepare it is I mix a scoop of MUD\WTR steamed with vanilla oat milk because I be fancy like that, and it is just delicious. And I love that it's not pre-sweetened. Why do people sweeten everything so dang much? On the days where I am feeling a sweet tooth, I had a drop of liquid vanilla Stevia to it. Nothing too extreme. 

[00:23:03] Jen Harbinger: Good to mudwtr.com/jordan and use code JORDAN to get 15 percent off your first purchase. That's M-U-D-W-T-R.com/jordan and use code JORDAN for 15 percent off. All orders ship within US and Canada. 

[00:23:17] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by IPVanish. It's a common misconception that using an incognito mode protects your online privacy. While incognito mode might hide other users of your device, VPNs hide your web traffic from everyone in the world. That's a huge difference. Without added security, you may as well give all your data away to hackers, advertisers, your ISP in other prying eyes. Use IPVanish VPN to stay truly private and secure by encrypting a hundred percent of your data. Private details, passwords, communications, browsing history, and more will be completely shielded from falling into the wrong hands. IPVanish makes you virtually invisible online. I kind of need to use this because of the stuff I'm doing with Russia, China — you know, those guys like to keep tabs on pretty much every critic. So I'm using it everywhere. Coffee shops, airports, even at home, I'm using IPVanish VPN. IPVanish is really easy to use. You tap a button, you're instantly protected. You won't even know that it's on.

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[00:24:33] Jordan Harbinger: If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it's because of my network. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. This course is about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring others to develop personal and professional relationships with you. It'll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker. That's jordanharbinger.com/course. And by the way, most of the guests you hear on our show already subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. 

[00:25:06] Now back to Vanessa Van Edwards.

[00:25:09] You know what escape rooms are? 

[00:25:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, I love escape rooms. 

[00:25:12] Jordan Harbinger: So we love — high open people. 

[00:25:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: Come on. Yes. 

[00:25:14] Jordan Harbinger: This is escape room. 

[00:25:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:25:15] Jordan Harbinger: So Jennie and I are obsessed with this. Jennie is my wife. We've done almost a hundred of these things. We'll go to a conference at another city and we — she always wants to try the new games. And so what we do instead of going, "Does everybody want to go to dinner?" and then sit awkwardly at opposite ends of a 13-foot table— 

[00:25:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes.

[00:25:30] Jordan Harbinger: —and not talk? We just go, "Look, let's go get some food and then go to this escape room." And some people go, "Nah, I'm good. I'll be at the bar," and you go, "Fine." 

[00:25:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's not your person. 

[00:25:40] Jordan Harbinger: That's not your person. Or it's the person that's— 

[00:25:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: You don't want them anyway. 

[00:25:42] Jordan Harbinger: —not going to be right in the mix. 

[00:25:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: They shouldn't be at your dinner anyway. 

[00:25:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:25:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So I think that having those kinds of things in your back pocket, and I do this in new cities, I do this in my city. Like I try to have that because I think that it's also, you attract your people. And I think works really well with dating as well. So like with dating, I know that you want to be open, but there's personality traits that go better together. So like, high open people tend to do better with high open people. The reason for that is because if you're high open and you marry or are with a low open person, you constantly feel held back. 

[00:26:10] Jordan Harbinger: You're always stuck in their routine, which is inside their comfort zone. 

[00:26:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: Correct. 

[00:26:14] Jordan Harbinger: Driving you crazy. 

[00:26:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: And if you're a low open person, who's with a high open person, you constantly feel like you're not good enough. And so that is a very hard personality trait— 

[00:26:22] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:26:22] Vanessa Van Edwards: —in opposites. Another one that's hard for opposites is conscientiousness. So conscientiousness is attention to detail, routine scheduling. Like I'm very high in conscientiousness. Like alphabetizing gives me an adrenaline rush. Like to-do lists, it's like a hobby that I like lists.

[00:26:37] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:26:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: And so I'm high in conscientiousness. I do really well with other people who are high in conscientiousness. Like when I send proposals out, I make them very detail oriented. I have lots of lists and bullets. 

[00:26:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Your show prep is a work of art right here. It's so formatted perfectly. 

[00:26:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I also love gold stars. So like, I love that. 

[00:26:56] Jordan Harbinger: Accolades.

[00:26:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Like I did like my research for you. Like I made a little note list. I know that that will appeal to someone who appreciates that. And so I'm able to work with people who — and that helps us build a faster relationship. So I think that those are ones that like, you always kind of want to look for someone who's kind of your match. Can I give an opposite one? 

[00:27:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I was going to say what happens if we find ourselves stuck in a mismatch, but go over the opposite first of all.

[00:27:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. A good question. So we will talk about that. The opposite one is neuroticism. So neuroticism is one of the five personality traits and — gosh, it's like a dirty word whenever I ask you, like— 

[00:27:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:27:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Are you high neurotic?

[00:27:30] Jordan Harbinger: Probably. 

[00:27:31] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like people are always, like, "I don't want to tell you." 

[00:27:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:27:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like you get like really awkward about it. So neuroticism— 

[00:27:36] Jordan Harbinger: They're neurotic, that's why. 

[00:27:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. That's how I know. 

[00:27:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That's how you know. 

[00:27:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's how I know. So neuroticism is not a bad trait. It is our emotional stability. It's how reactive we are to external circumstances. And what's interesting about neuroticism is high neurotics. Most of them carry a long form of a certain gene, and this is the serotonin transport gene. So not to get too technical, but serotonin is the chemical that makes us feel calm. So it calms us down. It makes us feel okay in the world. 

[00:28:04] If we get into a car accident, someone almost hits us, we get adrenaline, we get cortisol. And then what — when we calm, "Oh, we're fine. Phew, we're okay." That's actually serotonin trying to get us back to normal. Neurotics produce less serotonin and transport it most more slowly. So when they almost get into a car accident, it actually takes them longer to calm down because chemically, physically, they did not have all the resources they need to calm down. 

[00:28:31] So what happens in a marriage or in a partnership or in a friendship is the high neurotic is like, "Oh my god, that was horrible," and the low neurotic is like, "It's all good. We're fine." Never say calm down. Never say calm down. Never tell high neurotic it'll all be okay. 

[00:28:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm trying to calm down but the transport of my serotonin is taking longer than I expected.

[00:28:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: This is exactly what I say. This is exactly what I say, because I'm also a high neurotic. I share this because for those of you who are low neurotics, you need to understand that we're actually talking about a chemical difference in our reactions. 

[00:29:02] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:29:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: So in that case, sometimes it's actually better to be opposite. The reason for this is a high neurotic is very, very good at what-if scenarios. They're very good at preventing problems from happening. They think through all potential. They worry a lot. 

[00:29:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right, sure. 

[00:29:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right, like I think of every backup plan to a backup plan, to a backup plan, which means that I very rarely have huge crises or problems, but a low erotic is great in a crisis. So they're the ones who are the nice level-headed people. They're the rock. They're calm. So it's actually really helpful. You have really nice relationships business as well as romantic when you can have both. Because if you have someone who's preventing the crisis, someone who's good in a crisis, you're covered.

[00:29:42] Jordan Harbinger: Perfect, right. Somebody will have their head on— 

[00:29:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:29:44] Jordan Harbinger: —straight, both before, during and after— 

[00:29:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. If you're both— 

[00:29:46] Jordan Harbinger: —in a crisis. 

[00:29:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: —low neurotic and research has found the two low neurotics in a relationship are more likely to be in financial debt. 

[00:29:51] Jordan Harbinger: That makes perfect sense. 

[00:29:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[00:29:53] Jordan Harbinger: Because nobody's thinking, "What if this doesn't work out the way we expect," right? 

[00:29:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. They'll be like, "Oh, we don't need to save for that. It'll all be fine." and me as a high neurotic is like, "Are you crazy?" 

[00:30:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:30:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: "We got to have a college fund for our kid that doesn't exist," right? 

[00:30:04] Jordan Harbinger: In case, they go to college in 20 years. 

[00:30:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: In case I have a child, right? 

[00:30:09] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:30:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like it's like that. So I think that that's an opposite one. You don't always have to be the same. In fact, there is a lot of beauty in differences, but you have to pick your trait, I think carefully. 

[00:30:17] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. I think that one could cause a lot of friction in a relationship for a long time. 

[00:30:22] Vanessa Van Edwards: If you don't understand the mechanics of it. So like my husband's a low neurotic. I leveraged that for the strengths it provides. I know he is my rock. I know that if I'm feeling really worried or nervous, I can talk through it because he's so calm, right? He won't get upset with me. Whereas like my high neurotic friends, I know that I cannot call them when I'm worried. They will make me more worried. 

[00:30:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:30:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: They will hype me up even more.

[00:30:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:30:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: So like, I think that it can be very detrimental for a relationship if you don't know how to make it work. It's the same thing. And this answering your other question is, okay. So let's say that you wish that you had the same level of conscientiousness but you're just not. Having the same battle over and over again, about whose going to do the dry cleaning or who is going to do the laundry or the routine that is being messed up, you're going to have that fight for the rest of your life. You cannot change someone's personality orientation. You just can't. Our personality is 35 to 55 percent genetic. And the rest of it is formed usually in our childhood. It's very rare that it changes. The only personality trait that changes with age is that women tend to get more extroverted and men tend to get more open. That's with age over a lifetime. So who you married or who you're with if that's their personality trait and you keep trying to change it— 

[00:31:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, don't bother waiting it out. Never going to happen. 

[00:31:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. It's like banging your head against the wall. What you're more likely better to do is to say, Okay, this is their orientation. How can I work around this or with this?" And I really believe in relationships and outsourcing. So like, I know that I'm much better at certain things than my husband. He is way better than me. Like, for example, he's really good at travel booking. He's not high in conscientiousness. 

[00:31:55] Jordan Harbinger: Jen books all my stuff because I can't — I'm like, "Oh, I bought the flight for the wrong day. 

[00:31:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's me. That is totally me. So like, even though he has lower conscientiousness than me, he is so much better at that than me. Whereas like I'm pretty good at like house stuff. Making sure like the garden is taken care of. Making sure there's food in the fridge. Like that is like cake to me. Whereas booking flights, bill paying, that is not my thing. So we've outsourced to where our conscientiousness' natural strengths are. So it's totally okay if you're different, but like don't play against the strengths, play with them. 

[00:32:26] Jordan Harbinger: What does he do for work? 

[00:32:27] Vanessa Van Edwards: He's in finance. 

[00:32:28] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. 

[00:32:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Financial marketing, he does marketing for a bank.

[00:32:30] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. I was just wondering if he was also studying human behavior or just hearing a lot about it. 

[00:32:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: He kind of has to. 

[00:32:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:32:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Also, I have the kind of household — I felt bad for him sometimes. Like I always have experiments running, like including on him. So he just never knows what he's coming home to. We're very high open. So it's always an adventure in our house. He never knows what I'm going to be trying when he gets home. 

[00:32:49] Jordan Harbinger: So he'll just walk in and you're like, "I knew you were going to go to the refrigerator." 

[00:32:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes.

[00:32:52] Jordan Harbinger: "I knew you were going to get a banana, instead of an apple." 

[00:32:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: Sometimes I try to predict his food habits to see if I can predict them before he knows them. It's pretty great. 

[00:32:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Marginally useful to the public. 

[00:33:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's useful. Get to know my husband's food tastes. Yes. 

[00:33:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. Or anyone's for that matter. Although, hey look, if you can get the science behind what people want to eat before they know it— 

[00:33:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: Hey that would be a good app. 

[00:33:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If there's an app for that — there will be an app for that. We talked at pre-show about indicators of interest— 

[00:33:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:33:18] Jordan Harbinger: —and looking to see if people were going to be interested in you and things like that. And it's like, how do you know if somebody wants to start a conversation with you? Those people are naturally more receptive to you starting a conversation with them. 

[00:33:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:33:29] Jordan Harbinger: And indicators of interest for me, the first thing that comes to mind is proximity. Is somebody close to you breaking psychological space for a reason that maybe doesn't quite make sense on its face? Like, "You dropped your pen," but it went four feet in my direction. That's weird. How did that happen? Indicator of interest, yes.

[00:33:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's funny. That is right. I think that those are indicators of interests. What I was thinking when I was — the way I use that term is I think — and I learned this from my business first and I realized it was actually very helpful in the dating world and in friendship as well. So when I first started writing for my blog, I was writing to appeal to everyone, right? Like I was taking a very science journalist's perspective. I tried to make it like, really just like everyone would like it wouldn't offend anyone. It'd be interesting for everyone. 

[00:34:12] Jordan Harbinger: Boo. 

[00:34:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: The problem is — exactly, exactly. No one liked it, right? But I had a lot of ambivalent readers, like people who would read it, but like not signed up to a newsletter and not comment, not take any action, very like few avid readers. And so when I started to put indicators of interest into my content, like, this is either for you, or this is not for you. 

[00:34:31] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I got it. I totally missed the mark. 

[00:34:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: No, but like the body language is also indicators of interest. I actually was thinking of it in terms of like verbal indicators. So for example, on a dating profile, you are better off, I think, instead of trying to appeal to every fish in the sea, I think you're better off actually turning off 90 percent of the fishes to get like the 10 percent of amazing one.

[00:34:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right. We've talked about this in the past on the show. And a lot of people have different ways of doing this. 

[00:34:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: Ah. 

[00:34:54] Jordan Harbinger: In some ways that are awful in my opinion. 

[00:34:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. 

[00:34:57] Jordan Harbinger: But I totally agree with this, right? Because if you're trying to cast a wide net, it makes you a little bit vanilla. 

[00:35:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And I also think energy is limited. Our mental space, it's not infinite. And so if you are going on two or three dates a week and they're all kind of ambivalent, right? Like you're like, yeah, like the enemy in dating is not going on bad dates. It's going on ambivalent ones. If you go on ambivalent date where you're like, "This could work." 

[00:35:21] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm. 

[00:35:22] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like, "I could see it." Those are the most dangerous kind of relationships because they're the ones that drag on for weeks and months. And you're like, "I don't know." 

[00:35:31] Jordan Harbinger: Well, these are the ones that you hear about where it's like, "You were engaged and now you're not engaged? What happened?" 

[00:35:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Yes. 

[00:35:36] Jordan Harbinger: And it's because somebody finally went, "I just can't do this." 

[00:35:40] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. So that is, I think, what I'm talking about here is if you do not have indicators of interest, like polarizing ones, like flat out almost offensive ones, like you should be offending some people. Those are the kind of indicators of interest I'm talking about. 

[00:35:52] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:35:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: Then you are more likely to waste your time on ambivalent relationships that will suck up the energy before you can find the right one. So for example, like if you have deal breakers, I think you should say them. I think that you should, like in a nice way— 

[00:36:05] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:36:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like why would you be hiding a deal breaker if you know that it's there.

[00:36:08] Jordan Harbinger: That's true. I guess I'm imagining what some people that I think are a little bit, maybe more juvenile are doing to screen people out with things like, "No redheads." And it's like— 

[00:36:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: Well? 

[00:36:18] Jordan Harbinger: What are you doing, man. 

[00:36:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know what though? 

[00:36:20] Jordan Harbinger: It's such a superficial disqualifier. 

[00:36:22] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's such a superficial disqualifier. But if you know that, like you can't get it up when there's a redhead there, like why wouldn't you say that? 

[00:36:28] Jordan Harbinger: That's the problem. I feel like there's another issue involved. 

[00:36:31] Vanessa Van Edwards: Well, yeah, maybe.

[00:36:33] Jordan Harbinger: But by all means, broadcast that in your profile to the rest of the world. 

[00:36:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: And I love redheads. I love redheads. 

[00:36:38] Jordan Harbinger: Just for the record. 

[00:36:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: Just for the record. Like, okay here's an example of one. Vegan, okay? 

[00:36:42] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. That's important. 

[00:36:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. That's one where I think if you are vegan, you're like, "Do I say this upfront? Or do I wait?" No. Say it like, are you crazy? Or if you do not want a date a vegan because you are a meat lover, say that, right? Like, say like, "I am a huge bacon fan. Like if you don't like bacon with me every single morning—" 

[00:37:01] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:37:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: "—don't even bother contacting me." 

[00:37:03] Jordan Harbinger: If eating bacon in the morning is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[00:37:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. I think we should be more forthright with those because otherwise you get on date three and all of a sudden, you realize, "Oh wow. She really is not going to ever eat steak with me." And that's important to you — now, hopefully that is not the most important thing for you, but if that is something it's important to you, like that should be on there.

[00:37:23] Jordan Harbinger: I think that dietary stuff is super important. 

[00:37:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: So much. 

[00:37:25] Jordan Harbinger: Because it's not just, "Oh, well, you know, when I eat dairy, I don't process it well." You know, raise your hand if you're one of those lactose-intolerant people. There's a million 

[00:37:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:37:35] Jordan Harbinger: But if it's, "I'm vegan because I'm super sensitive about the way animals are treated. And I think about the environment a lot," and the other person that you're dating is like, "I don't care. I'm just wanting to make money because I work at investment bank," or something like that, you're going to run into issues elsewhere, not just at restaurants. 

[00:37:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes.

[00:37:51] Jordan Harbinger: Like this is going to be friction. 

[00:37:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Here are a couple of things that I think are like very small, but actually matter long term, like for long-term happiness — so dietary, yeah, like what you eat, how you eat. Morning or night person, in a relationship it can be really hard if you have someone who's the opposite as you because you're constantly fighting a bedtime wake-up time constantly. And that will never change, right? Usually, if your morning or night doesn't change out over a lifetime. Another one is what you did to relax. I don't mean like what do you do to have fun. That's a different question. 

[00:38:17] Jordan Harbinger: You mean introvert versus extroverted personalities in relaxation? 

[00:38:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. But also even like you have the night and you want to recover from a really hard week, what do you do? 

[00:38:25] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:38:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: That piece, like some people are like order in, watch a movie, hang out on the couch. Like that's the ideal thing. Other people are like, "Go out and party." 

[00:38:32] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:38:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like, forget about my problems. Well, you're going to have a problem, my friends. 

[00:38:36] Jordan Harbinger: This is exactly what I meant by introverted versus extroverted. 

[00:38:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: Ah, perfect. 

[00:38:39] Jordan Harbinger: So introverted people, it doesn't mean you have a medical excuse not to be social. It just means that your me-time is how you recharge versus somebody who's naturally extroverted says, "I need to get out of the house and go do something and be around friends and people," because that's how they recharge. 

[00:38:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:38:53] Jordan Harbinger: If you don't want to hang out with each other during your downtime, because their idea of relaxing to you is completely exhausting.

[00:38:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I'm an ambivert. So like I flip between the two and most people from our studies are ambiverts. There's also this aspect of like, okay, maybe you're both ambiverts, where do you recharge? Like certain ambiverts like, for example, loud concerts, loud bars, nightclubs. Ugh, they drain me so fast. However, I love like dinner parties. I love going to barbecues. So like my thrive locations are different. That also makes a difference of like, maybe it's a couple of people, but like I said, a couple of people in a loud nightclub or is it like going to concerts every weekend? And those are really good, early questions. Like I think I'd get those out of the way real early. Don't wait until you live together to find that out. 

[00:39:32] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And if you live together and you find that out, then definitely don't get hitched thinking, "I'm going to work on it." 

[00:39:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:39:37] Jordan Harbinger: It's going to be fine. 

[00:39:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: She'll change. Like it will not. 

[00:39:40] Jordan Harbinger: Good luck with that. No, that's every email in my inbox that has a divorce in it starts with, "I should've seen it coming but," dot, dot, dot three paragraphs later. 

[00:39:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: You get those emails? 

[00:39:50] Jordan Harbinger: All the time. All the time. 

[00:39:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: Wow. 

[00:39:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, all the time. A lot of people write — and I'm not laughing at it at all. It's tragic. 

[00:39:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: No, it's horrible. 

[00:39:57] Jordan Harbinger: Because the reason this person is not just going, "We had a good run. It was great. I'm moving on." It's usually, "Damn it. I knew it and I didn't listen to it and I didn't do anything about it." Or of course, there's other reasons, like, "I knew it, but I didn't think I could get somebody else that was equally X, Y, Z and certain factors." 

[00:40:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: And that is ambivalence. Being in a relationship where you're like, "Yeah, it's pretty good. Could I do better? I don't know." 

[00:40:20] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. 

[00:40:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: If you're asking yourself, "Could I do better?" you have a problem. Right, like same thing with the job too, by the way, I think like, if you're constantly thinking that, time to start— 

[00:40:29] Jordan Harbinger: It is. However though, I want to qualify this, I think a lot of people conflate or confuse, "Can I do better," with, "Is what I thought important to me is still important to me?" So for example — and I want to clarify this because for guys — I'm getting married soon, right? So I'm thinking about all this stuff a lot. A lot of times guys go, "So did you always date Asian women?" And I'm like, "No, I've never done that before." And they're like, "Well, are you sure that's, you know, going to be compatible with you?" And I thought, "I just don't care about that." Like all of the, yeah, I like tall women that are blonde. Like all those things I thought were mildly or super important, not that I thought being a tall blonde was important, but a lot of the things I thought about— 

[00:41:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: On your list. 

[00:41:08] Jordan Harbinger: —cultural need to be somebody who's also in this culture or born in this place, or — none of that mattered. I found other things I didn't even know existed that mattered more. So your values do restructure over time. 

[00:41:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:41:20] Jordan Harbinger: You just have to be really careful not to go, "Oh, my value is restructured because I can't get what I want," or, "My values restructured because this is what I find myself dealing with right now." It has to be restructured because you've thought good and hard about it. And you realize this is less important to you, and this is more important to you. Because I don't want guys to go, "Crap. I'm always thinking about, can I do better when I'm dating?"

[00:41:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: You're right. 

[00:41:41] Jordan Harbinger: Because men will never not probably think that for— 

[00:41:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:41:45] Jordan Harbinger: —at least a minute. 

[00:41:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:41:47] Jordan Harbinger: And I don't want guys being like, "I need to break up with my fiancée now because I had a dream last night that I dated somebody from a different—"

[00:41:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: Love it. That is a very, very good distinction. And remember that people look really different from their checklists. 

[00:41:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And the checklists, the deal-breaker checklists we've probably talked about on other shows as well. 

[00:42:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:42:04] Jordan Harbinger: But people do always look very different than their checklist and the checklist should be open to interpretation except in the areas of your core values, which we can go down that road.

[00:42:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I think that like looking at those and having indicators of the places where you really feel really strong about, we should be stating those upfronts as much as possible. That is going to, I think, get rid of the fluff of those ambivalent. 

[00:42:22] Jordan Harbinger: So I guess than these you call indicators of interest is more like qualifiers and disqualifiers, but I think they're just semantically— 

[00:42:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, polarizers? 

[00:42:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:42:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: Women can't do that. 

[00:42:33] Jordan Harbinger: No. Well, you could, it would just be a messier endeavor. 

[00:42:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: You just gave me a look like, "Really? Like you really did not go there?" 

[00:42:42] Jordan Harbinger: Have you not tried urinating into the wind? 

[00:42:46] What about the science of romantic attraction and social attraction as differentiated in your work?

[00:42:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, so there's very little difference. And so I talk constantly about business crushes, social crushes, romantic crushes. And I think that we need to start thinking about attraction in professional settings. We try to separate that out. I don't mean like physical attraction. I mean like a magnetic desire to be with someone, a magnetic desire to incorporate an idea. I think that the more we can think about that in social relationships and business relationships that I think brings a lot of spice to life. What I wanted to make a point here is that there's very little difference between attraction for professional versus social or romantic relationships. 

[00:43:25] Jordan Harbinger: There's not very much of a difference? 

[00:43:27] Vanessa Van Edwards: No.

[00:43:27] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So explain the minor differences that exist, or maybe explain how they're all the same. 

[00:43:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: Sure. So chemically, we're talking about connection. We're talking about oxytocin, which I think you talked about a lot. So I wear oxytocin necklace. I don't know if you can — that's oxytocin.

[00:43:39] Jordan Harbinger: I wonder what that was, but I was like, that's definitely a molecule.

[00:43:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's a molecule. 

[00:43:44] Jordan Harbinger: I guess I can't identify oxytocin without a label. 

[00:43:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: What? You can't? 

[00:43:48] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[00:43:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: So my husband was like, "Do you want a heart necklace?" I was like, "I don't want a heart. I want the real deal." So we got to get an oxytocin one. So oxytocin is the basis of all relationships. And that is how we feel the safety of this belonging. And so we often talk about it in romantic sense, right? Like touch and cuddling and hugging like that, all pretty oxytocin, but actually oxytocin is incredibly important in business — why are you laughing? Why are you laughing at me? 

[00:44:12] Jordan Harbinger: I was thinking well, one, because I can't keep a train of thought for more than a few seconds— 

[00:44:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. 

[00:44:17] Jordan Harbinger: —which is why I'm in this job instead of writing things, but — oh god, I might as well just say now, if I had that same necklace or rather, if I were going to get a necklace, I would have to get the gland that secretes oxytocin. And then I thought, what would that look like? And then I just lost track of everything that you were saying before. 

[00:44:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's where your head went? 

[00:44:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's where my head went.

[00:44:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: What is the gland that secretes oxytocin? 

[00:44:37] Jordan Harbinger: I was thinking about that. I couldn't come up with the answer and I thought, "Dude, can I weasel that question into this thread of conversation?" And then we just said— 

[00:44:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: Is it the pituitary? What does that look like? 

[00:44:45] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. It probably looks like a little testicle. I've mentioned all glands looked like that.

[00:44:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: So could you imagine where you're got the walnut around—? Someone's like, "Oh, what's your necklace?" And you're like, "Oh, it's a gland." 

[00:44:59] Jordan Harbinger: "Yeah, it's a gland that secretes oxytocin." "Get away from my kid." Oh god. 

[00:45:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: We can move on to the next question. Let's move on to the next question. 

[00:45:11] Jordan Harbinger: This is completely my fault for the record. I will take the blame on this tangent entirely. All right. Fair enough. What about the blind date research that you've done recently? 

[00:45:24] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Okay, so one of the research experiments we did is I was looking — I mean, blind date classic, like especially the '80s, the '90s version was so good. And I was like, "I wonder if there's like a way to predict success of a blind date just by the first few minutes." Again, we talk about fresh depression all the time. So I had one of my researchers, Robbie Smith analyze a hundred, like a random sampling of a hundred Blind Date episodes. 

[00:45:45] Jordan Harbinger: The TV show? 

[00:45:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: The TV show. 

[00:45:46] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:45:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:45:48] Jordan Harbinger: For lack of a better sample of data.

[00:45:49] Vanessa Van Edwards: Why not, right? I was like, "Well, let's just see." Let's just see what these are people who have liked — for some way they've been vetted to be together, like either for awful reasons or terrible or good reasons. 

[00:45:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:45:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like is there any prediction here of what's going to predict a successful date or not, right? So I think it's similar to being set up. And that's what we — it happens all the time. So he analyzed a hundred different dates and there was a couple of different interesting patterns. So one was that the more touch there was in the first two minutes seemed to break the physical barrier much faster. 

[00:46:20] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:46:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: It seemed to have a more successful date, which is oxytocin. Okay, that would make sense. 

[00:46:24] Jordan Harbinger: Physical escalation, standard operating procedures. 

[00:46:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: I know that you guys talk about this, but there's something about that friend versus foe question that happens. So for women, especially, we're constantly trying to figure out, "Are we safe with this person?" And we don't necessarily consciously realize that, but that's what we're trying to assess at all times. So if there is no touch within the first few minutes, the friend or foe question just lingers for us. Like it isn't answered for a really long time. So that initial touch is, those first two minutes, that's the only opportunity you have to make an initial first touch until the very end of the date. 

[00:46:57] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And then you've got that whole pressure — and the decision, of course, has already been made in her mind. Like, "I'm not letting this person— 

[00:47:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: Already been made — and I was actually talking to a friend about this who's dating right now. And I was saying, "Women can usually guess if a guy is going to be a good kisser or a bad in bed." He was like, "How?" And I was like, "Their walk." 

[00:47:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the walk. That's so funny. I was going to say the walk, exactly. 

[00:47:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's the walk. And like— 

[00:47:16] Jordan Harbinger: It's the walk. 

[00:47:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: And he made me show him examples of men on YouTube walking in a good way and a bad way. And I think that— 

[00:47:23] Jordan Harbinger: Hip tension and things like that. 

[00:47:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: Stiffness, hip tension, not enough variability of movement. I think that's what we're talking about. It's like, oh, could there be movement. And it's the same thing with touch. It's like if you reach out and touch like the forearm or put the hand on a lower back, there is a variability of touch there of like, "Oh, like we're okay." And then you get that nice chemical oxytocin burst. And it's good. 

[00:47:41] Jordan Harbinger: We've seen this — and this is anecdotal because we don't have a lab, but we've seen differences in touch from fingertips, palm of the hand, full arm, like basically the more contact— 

[00:47:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:47:51] Jordan Harbinger: In the more kind of — and I'm very careful with this because I don't want guys to be like, assaulting people— 

[00:47:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: No. 

[00:47:57] Jordan Harbinger: —right on the street. 

[00:47:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: Please don't, please don't. 

[00:47:59] Jordan Harbinger: But it has to do with the amount of contact. It doesn't even have to be skin on skin. It can be just clothing— 

[00:48:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:48:03] Jordan Harbinger: —everything. It has to do with the way that you guide someone else's body, how confident you are when you do that, which is one of the reasons dancing— 

[00:48:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:48:09] Jordan Harbinger: —is such a precursor to—

[00:48:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. The addition that I will add here is your touch is only part one of what's important. Part two is her reaction to it. So let's say that you make a touch and it doesn't go well, that actually tells you a lot about the person, because if — for example, so she pulls her arm away. She makes a grimace or a contempt microexpression if she doesn't like to lean into the touch, right? 

[00:48:34] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:48:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. Like that actually, it's a very different kind of date. The questions that you're going to try to do are going to be more safety, security, comfort-based questions, right? It's you're going to try to assure her that you are someone who is a good match for her, that you want to have a good time that she's comfortable. If she leans into the touch, okay, we're talking more adventurous now, right? Then you can go into like ideal trips and vacations and— 

[00:48:55] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:48:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: —more exotic things. So that actually tells you a lot about how the date can go. It's never a deal breaker. It just gives you an idea of where you need to go with the conversation.

[00:49:07] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Vanessa Van Edwards. We'll be right back. 

[00:49:12] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. Life can be overwhelming and many people are burned out without even knowing it. I've certainly been there. Getting therapy can help if you're feeling a lack of motivation, helplessness, fatigue, and more. Better Help is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, even live chat sessions with your therapist — if you're feeling particularly antisocial and I see you. So you don't have to see anyone else on camera if you don't want to. You don't have to leave the house. You don't have to drive. You don't have to park. You don't have to sit on someone else's couch. And you're able to message your therapist at any time as well. The Better Help app is amazing. You can see by all the five-star reviews. I've given some Better Help therapy away to some of you and it has been life-changing. And I'm so happy to see that and hear that. It's also just a hell of a lot more affordable than in-person therapy, and you can get matched in under 48 hours, which is basically impossible with a local therapist, most of the time. You can even match with a therapist in a different city, but with the specialty that you need. You know we all got our particular problems. I love that you can request a new therapist if you're not really feeling the current one. No additional charge for that either. Don't wait to get mental health care. You're worth it. 

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[00:50:23] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Nissan. The future will be great, but today is just as incredible. Meet Nissan's most advanced lineup. If he can't get enough adrenaline, there's the all-new 400 HP Nissan Z, or for your off-road adventures, check out the all-terrain Nissan Frontier. If you're more of a spontaneous road trip type of person hop in the Nissan Pathfinder. So let's enjoy the ride. 

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[00:51:17] Now for the rest of my conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards.

[00:51:25] A lot of this stuff has to do with expectations as well. One of the ways which you can make somebody feel safe, especially in dating scenarios to talk about how your logistics prevent something potentially high pressure from happening at the end of the date. So when I use the sense that when I was dating, if I sense any issue with physical escalation in the beginning, I would say something like, "I just want to keep an eye on the time because at nine I have to go to my friend's house and handle something." That way they're like, "Oh good. Okay. He's going to his friend's house. I'm not going to get like set up to go up to his apartment or something like that." 

[00:51:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: Love it. 

[00:51:53] Jordan Harbinger: And then they just kind of go, "Oh good. This has a final stopping time." Of course, saying you have to go to your friend's house, just kind of says— 

[00:51:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Social proof, I have friends. 

[00:52:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. "I'm not a serial killer who lives with his mom in the basement. 

[00:52:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: So that would be the perfect thing to bring up if a touch and go well. 

[00:52:06] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:52:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. So like touch is never going to be a deal breaker, especially if you're saying like in the hand to arm region. I would bring that up real quick.

[00:52:14] Jordan Harbinger: You can do it even before the touch if you need to.

[00:52:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: Hundred percent. 

[00:52:17] Jordan Harbinger: It can be the first thing you say. 

[00:52:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:52:18] Jordan Harbinger: Because worst-case scenario, it's like, "Do you have to go to your friend's house later?" Right?

[00:52:23] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. 

[00:52:23] Jordan Harbinger: Like if everything does go on, then you go, "Just kidding. I don't have any friends. I live in the basement." 

[00:52:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Screw them. I don't have to see those people.

[00:52:31] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So you can handle it logistically. I'm very careful again with this stuff because the last thing we want to do is give a how-to manual for— 

[00:52:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: No. 

[00:52:40] Jordan Harbinger: —people who are going to take advantage of this stuff. 

[00:52:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Also, it's a way of taking down your anxiety and her anxiety. So I actually don't see it as a trick or a manipulation thing. I actually see it as a way of like testing the waters so that you can have a better relationship. Like if the touch doesn't go well, okay. Like you learn something, maybe the first impression goes great and you're trying to make her comfortable. And it's not working, great. You have a shorter date. You know that isn't for you and you end it. So I actually think it's just a way of speeding up an interaction to see if this really going to work or not. That's how I look at it. 

[00:53:11] Jordan Harbinger: It's always good to get it done a little bit early and get it done. 

[00:53:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: Always. 

[00:53:13] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, by qualify or disqualify somebody. 

[00:53:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:53:16] Jordan Harbinger: Because the worst thing is when you're going out with somebody and you're on date number five and you're like," I just hate every minute of this. Why am I still here?" 

[00:53:22] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. And the last one for the blind date thing that I wanted to mention was I noticed that the biggest predicted success was when the men showed up and acted like they were greeting an old friend. 

[00:53:31] Jordan Harbinger: So warmth. Is that what we're looking at? 

[00:53:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And like, there wasn't anything, like super specific that I could point to, but there was this feeling of like, "Oh, they must've already met." Now, I don't know if they actually did already meet. I don't think so. But if you greet someone — I think this is for both men and women. If you greet someone like they're an old friend, even if you've met them for the first time, having that in your mind sets up the expectation that you want to be old friends. Like it's the Pygmalion effect. It has been proven in science. 

[00:53:56] Jordan Harbinger: You did that outside. 

[00:53:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:53:57] Jordan Harbinger: Tricky little— 

[00:53:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: I do think we're old friends. 

[00:54:00] Jordan Harbinger: We are, we are. 

[00:54:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: We are old friends. 

[00:54:01] Jordan Harbinger: It counts. 

[00:54:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: It counts because I think that sets up the Pygmalion effect. The science is quite clear that when you expect someone to be a good friend, they often end up being good friends. 

[00:54:09] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:54:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: So physically it all sets that up too. 

[00:54:11] Jordan Harbinger: I run an experiment with this very thing, except without nonverbal communication— 

[00:54:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:54:15] Jordan Harbinger: —necessarily being the focus. I actually tried — and this was years ago and it sounds so dorky now, but I tried years ago just saying, "You know, I really click with you. I feel like we've known each other for a really long time." And then even if they're like, "Well, I'm on the fence about that." They still might say something like, just to be polite they'll often go, "Yeah. Yeah, it's cool." And then they start to look for reasons to rationalize it. 

[00:54:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[00:54:36] Jordan Harbinger: And then a disproportionate number of those people did actually become really close friends. And I remember years later having conversations with many of them and going, "Yeah. You know, remember when we first hung out?" And they're like, "Yeah. And you said we were like old friends." And I was like, "Did you really believe that?" And they're like, "No, but I'm glad we're friends now." And I'm like, "I didn't either. I was just testing." And they're like, "You son of a b*tch." But it makes perfect sense because you act as if.

[00:54:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And that's liking. That original principle we talked about, about liking more people. That is what that is. When you say that you're saying like, "I like you, I like you a lot." That's exactly using the science of personality. 

[00:55:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's an interesting, and also clunky way to do it, which is probably why I haven't talked about it much in the last decade but it works. 

[00:55:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: But it's an interesting concept to think about. And also you don't have to say it, you can just act it. 

[00:55:17] Jordan Harbinger: You can act it, yeah. 

[00:55:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. And like greet people that way and talk to them as if they're an old friend, instead of being like on a weird first date interview, which is like awful. 

[00:55:25] Jordan Harbinger: The only hiccup with this is that it requires vulnerability. 

[00:55:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Very much. 

[00:55:28] Jordan Harbinger: Because if you're not going to act as if, and be vulnerable and be open, like you would with an old friend, you're kind of just going through the awkward, fake motions of pretending you have.

[00:55:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Agree. And if you feel like you can't go out and even like, attempt that I don't think it's worth doing. 

[00:55:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You'd have to have an element of warmth that you're either able to turn on convincingly so that you don't look like a used car salesman. 

[00:55:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:55:47] Jordan Harbinger: Or actually be a person who's really good at being open, kind of at the drop of a hat. 

[00:55:51] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[00:55:51] Jordan Harbinger: Which for me personally is actually kind of tricky.

[00:55:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Usually, the positive reinforcement you get from even a little bit of vulnerability is worth it. 

[00:55:59] Jordan Harbinger: It is worth it. 

[00:56:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: For feedback. 

[00:56:00] Jordan Harbinger: But it's a lesson that at least for me, I have to keep learning. 

[00:56:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: I hear you. 

[00:56:04] Jordan Harbinger: Because I'm not naturally a very warm— 

[00:56:06] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:56:07] Jordan Harbinger: —at least very upfront warm person, and that just comes from only child-isms or whatever. 

[00:56:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[00:56:13] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. Tell me about the— 

[00:56:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh, last one. 

[00:56:16] Jordan Harbinger: Hot or not stuff going on here. 

[00:56:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So this white paper is not out yet. I just bought this. 

[00:56:20] Jordan Harbinger: This is a warm notepad.

[00:56:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: This is a warm notepad. It's been under my butt. I've been sitting on it because there was nowhere to put it. Okay, so this white paper is not done yet. We just finished it. What we did was I wanted— 

[00:56:28] Jordan Harbinger: This particular white paper? This white kitchen refrigerator notepad. 

[00:56:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: This white paper that we have published. It's going to be a big white paper. 

[00:56:35] Jordan Harbinger: Pocket-sized. 

[00:56:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, pocket-sized white paper. So we did a study on Hot or Not, and literally the Hot or Not photos or hotornot.com. We took a random sampling. I think we had over 400 photos and we looked at patterns compared to their scores. 

[00:56:47] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:56:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I wanted to know what was it about the hottest women, the women who got, I think on Hot or Not, it's one to five ranking. So what are the women who are in the four range versus the men who were in the four range versus the women who are in the low range? So we found seven patterns — I thought we could play a game to see if you can guess— 

[00:57:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:57:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: —what the patterns are. 

[00:57:03] Jordan Harbinger: We can. 

[00:57:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. 

[00:57:04] Jordan Harbinger: I'm just trying to — I think I used websites— 

[00:57:06] Vanessa Van Edwards: You don't look excited about that. 

[00:57:07] Jordan Harbinger: —in the '90s and I'm just wondering if my photos— 

[00:57:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: It was. 

[00:57:09] Jordan Harbinger: —still on there floating around. 

[00:57:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: No, no, I'm just kidding. 

[00:57:11] Jordan Harbinger: It was? Yeah, looking much younger and much more in shape I would imagine. 

[00:57:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: I think I used it. I think everyone put it up in like 10th grade. I don't know. Like it was like the cool website— 

[00:57:19] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:57:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: —and you had to put it up and you'd be like, tell your friends, "Vote for me, really hot." 

[00:57:22] Jordan Harbinger: Vote me up. Otherwise, yeah, my self-esteem is going to take a hit for 20 years, maybe. 

[00:57:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly.

[00:57:28] Jordan Harbinger: Continue. 

[00:57:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So seven patterns — I hope at home you can play with us and Jordan is going to be — you have to be the one who guesses. Okay ready? 

[00:57:34] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:57:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Skin or no skin? 

[00:57:37] Jordan Harbinger: And so I'm guessing whether or not this person got up voted for more skin or less skin. 

[00:57:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: You are guessing if the hottest men and women showed more skin or showed less skin. 

[00:57:46] Jordan Harbinger: More skin for women, especially.

[00:57:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So you are actually incorrect. 

[00:57:50] Jordan Harbinger: What? 

[00:57:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: I know. 

[00:57:52] Jordan Harbinger: Really? 

[00:57:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: We're shocked. So get this, men get such a bad rap for wanting to see women with skin. Actually, the hottest women did not show skin, but the hottest men did. 

[00:58:00] Jordan Harbinger: That is totally shocking. 

[00:58:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: It is. I asked my researcher, I was like, "No, like this cannot be right. Like we got to go back and try to look at this. So the men who had their shirts off who had low cut shirts, who were like in a towel, those were the hottest men by far. But the women who showed a lot of cleavage, showed a lot of leg, nope, they did not get the hottest. So the hottest women did not show a lot of skin. 

[00:58:18] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose it maybe makes sense in the way that a lot of women who are trying to show extra skin or maybe making up for a deficiency in other areas.

[00:58:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: I think that is exactly what's happening. 

[00:58:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:58:27] Vanessa Van Edwards: I think that also looking at some of the actual photos along the women who were showing a lot of skin were showing less face. 

[00:58:34] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. That's a problem. 

[00:58:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Or like just their mouth. 

[00:58:36] Jordan Harbinger: Because we get when you do that. Like, "Hey, this is the left side of my face." What's happening right now? 

[00:58:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: What's happening on the right side?

[00:58:42] Jordan Harbinger: Where is your eye patch? 

[00:58:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's exactly. So do not worry for women listening. And for men, a little skin might not be a bad idea. 

[00:58:50] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:58:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: All right. Next one. So looking at pictures of both men and women, what was the biggest buzz killed prop? There was one item that when people had it in their photos, that's it. Like it ruined their — like no hot people have this prop in their photos.

[00:59:05] Jordan Harbinger: Money? 

[00:59:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: Nope. 

[00:59:06] Jordan Harbinger: Can I try again? 

[00:59:06] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, try again. 

[00:59:07] Jordan Harbinger: And it's definitely not an animal. I feel like— 

[00:59:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's not animal. 

[00:59:09] Jordan Harbinger: —animals would be— 

[00:59:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: There were dogs in it. No. Dogs went well. 

[00:59:11] Jordan Harbinger: Dogs went well, right? Those tests well. Buzzkill prop? I mean, I don't — a phone? 

[00:59:17] Vanessa Van Edwards: So headphones didn't make a difference. 

[00:59:18] Jordan Harbinger: Headphones did not. 

[00:59:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: Headphones did not. So if you looked at actual pictures that had headphones, those did not afford the scores. 

[00:59:23] Jordan Harbinger: What about the actual phone? Like selfie-style bathroom mirror crap. 

[00:59:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: Most people were — bathroom was a terrible context. That was a context killer. The prop that actually affected the score the most was sunglasses. 

[00:59:32] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that makes total sense. 

[00:59:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. And what's interesting about this, that makes logical sense, but so many people had it in their picture because you're out, you're at the beach. 

[00:59:40] Jordan Harbinger: When you feel like you look cool, but the problem is we're not trying to look impenetrable. We're trying to look open and inviting. 

[00:59:46] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. 

[00:59:47] Jordan Harbinger: No eye contact. 

[00:59:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: We get oxytocin from even looking at video eye contact— 

[00:59:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sure 

[00:59:50] Vanessa Van Edwards: —photo eye contact. So sunglasses are killer. Make sure you do not have sunglasses in your profile pictures. And headphones are okay. You can totally be— 

[00:59:56] Jordan Harbinger: So headphones, towel with no shirt. 

[00:59:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Good. 

[00:59:59] Jordan Harbinger: No sunglasses. 

[01:00:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, they love it. 

[01:00:01] Jordan Harbinger: Continue. 

[01:00:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. All right. Which angle was best? There was one angle that did not work and there was an angle that worked. Like, is it like above? Is it below? Is it to the side as a profile picture?

[01:00:12] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. I mean, straight on would be a good angle— 

[01:00:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: You're right. 

[01:00:15] Jordan Harbinger: —for being open and inviting. 

[01:00:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's right. 

[01:00:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:00:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: So that's fronting, right? 

[01:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: Fronting. 

[01:00:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: So we talk about fronting. We love to see someone straight on. And also, researchers at the University of Brussels found that the angle of your photo affects people's perceptions of you. So for example, when we look at someone up so that we hold the camera down, they look more charismatic— 

[01:00:32] Jordan Harbinger: The double chin angle. 

[01:00:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: And if you can pull off it without the double chin, it actually works really well. Because we, as children, looked up at adults that we admired. We like to look up at people. You'll notice a lot of celebrities in their IMDB photos, they have the angle up at them, because it makes them look really tall, really charismatic. Looking down, it makes you look vulnerable, makes you look a little bit weak. It can be a submissive way of doing a photo. So those are not bad or worse— 

[01:00:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:00:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: —but they send off very, very different signals. 

[01:00:59] Jordan Harbinger: When I was helping a couple of athletic female friends of mine do profile photos, we had them do the top-down angle because they were like 6'1".

[01:01:08] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's the perfect example because they wanted to sort of tone it down, right? They have an alpha. It isn't about them. That they don't want that to be the first and foremost thing.

[01:01:14] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[01:01:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. Front on is best. And then the angle of the camera is depending on your brand, what signals you want to send off. The next one — what was the best context? So I gave away already that bathroom was— 

[01:01:25] Jordan Harbinger: Not bathroom. 

[01:01:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know that one. 

[01:01:26] Jordan Harbinger: Huh? Outdoors or something? 

[01:01:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, you got it. 

[01:01:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:01:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: So by far, any kind of outside context was best. There were so many bathroom photos. It was insane.

[01:01:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's just weird to me. 

[01:01:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh my god, insane. 

[01:01:37] Jordan Harbinger: We've all seen the one where there's like a turd in the background. 

[01:01:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: I knew you were going to say that.

[01:01:43] Jordan Harbinger: I had to. 

[01:01:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: You had to.

[01:01:44] Jordan Harbinger: Because they were thinking it. 

[01:01:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, not that one. Right. So outdoors is really good but without sunglasses. This is a caveat. If you're going to be outdoors and take off your sunglasses. 

[01:01:53] Jordan Harbinger: Just be all squinty. 

[01:01:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: No, just smize. 

[01:01:55] Jordan Harbinger: In your towel and headphones. 

[01:01:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: Just smize. 

[01:01:57] Jordan Harbinger: Smize, yes. 

[01:01:57] Vanessa Van Edwards: You're like take off your shirt, smize— 

[01:02:00] Jordan Harbinger: Throw on— 

[01:02:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: No sunglasses. 

[01:02:01] Jordan Harbinger: Throw on some headphones. And you're good. 

[01:02:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oil yourself up a little bit. That's going to be good for you. Okay. 

[01:02:05] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. 

[01:02:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: All right. Here's the big one to get. Smile or not smiling?

[01:02:09] Jordan Harbinger: Smiling. 

[01:02:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: So actually a closed-mouth smile was the worst thing you could do. 

[01:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: The serial killer smile? 

[01:02:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: The serial killer smile or like, "I'm being casual. So I'm just smiling small." 

[01:02:19] Jordan Harbinger: The smug one? 

[01:02:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: The smug one. 

[01:02:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:02:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: For men, the best picture was actually a neutral face. So a neutral face actually did better for men than like full-on smiling and they did way better than closed mouth smiling. So neutral or big smile, don't go in between. Right so— 

[01:02:33] Jordan Harbinger: Neutral or big smile? 

[01:02:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. So like— 

[01:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: As a man? 

[01:02:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: As a man. Yes, exactly. So if you're going to do it, do it, right? Like don't give like the little, like, "I'm cool," casual smile. Like, "What's up?" 

[01:02:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the guns? 

[01:02:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: None of that. Right, so either like smile, go home or— 

[01:02:46] Jordan Harbinger: Go big or go home. 

[01:02:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: Go big or go home, that's the perfect one.

[01:02:50] Jordan Harbinger: What about females? What about women and smiling? 

[01:02:52] Vanessa Van Edwards: So neutral face was not as good for women. 

[01:02:54] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[01:02:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: So for them, it's only the big smile. 

[01:02:56] Jordan Harbinger: We, as possibly a society, definitely American male perspective tends to be — and you've heard this. If a woman has a neutral face, we call it, a resting b*tch face.

[01:03:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. 

[01:03:07] Jordan Harbinger: Whereas if a guy has a neutral face, there's no comment made about it whatsoever.

[01:03:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[01:03:11] Jordan Harbinger: Generally. 

[01:03:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. So there's actually some science behind resting b*tch face. It's oftentimes associated with women who have their facial features angled down. So if my mouth at rest goes down, so by — you see the corners of my mouth are angled slightly down. 

[01:03:24] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Yeah, look at you, just all resting— 

[01:03:27] Vanessa Van Edwards: Just resting— 

[01:03:27] Jordan Harbinger: RBF. 

[01:03:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: Awful. So that is a partial sadness microexpression even though I'm at rest. My eyes, you'll notice that I actually use a liner to make them go up. You see that? 

[01:03:35] Jordan Harbinger: I did. I did see that when you were sitting here.

[01:03:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. So the reason I do that is because if I don't do that, I look more tired because my eyes angle down. 

[01:03:42] Jordan Harbinger: Well, right, our tribe's people tend to have that characteristic.

[01:03:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So that is what you're seeing. So women who don't have RBF it's because their mouth is usually set slightly up and their eyes are set up. That is what the science is behind resting b*tch face. 

[01:04:00] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. 

[01:04:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: So for a woman do not go neutral. Really the big smile is better. If you're going to go neutral, make sure that you don't have downward-facing features.

[01:04:07] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. All right. 

[01:04:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[01:04:08] Jordan Harbinger: And you'll know that by whether or not people accuse you of having resting b*tch face. 

[01:04:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: You"ll know. If you have RBF, you know. You hear about it all the time. 

[01:04:14] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. 

[01:04:14] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh my god, I want to punch people in the face when they tell me to smile.

[01:04:17] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. That's a thing that I didn't realize was not okay until maybe seven years ago. 

[01:04:24] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[01:04:24] Jordan Harbinger: Because I was always like, "Oh, I'm going to be that guy who always encourages people to smile." The way to encourage people to smile is to smile first— 

[01:04:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's right. 

[01:04:30] Jordan Harbinger: —not to tell them to smile. 

[01:04:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank God we said that. Okay— 

[01:04:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:04:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: So two things you should never tell. I think anyone, but especially a woman, one is to smile. "Smile looks so good on you. Smile before me, baby." No. 

[01:04:40] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[01:04:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: "Second is you're so much more short or tall than I thought." You never want to comment on someone's height. Like I have seen this over and over again. For a man or a woman, if you tell someone you're so much -er than I thought," it really messes with people like they're like, "Well, is that a bad thing? Like, is that a good thing? Like I'm taller. I'm shorter." I have gotten both. I've had— 

[01:05:00] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[01:05:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: People say to me, "You're taller than I thought, you're shorter than I thought." 

[01:05:02] Jordan Harbinger: You're exactly the height I assumed you were.

[01:05:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thanks.

[01:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: You're welcome. 

[01:05:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thanks, Jordan. 

[01:05:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it works every time. 

[01:05:07] Vanessa Van Edwards: Nailed it. 

[01:05:08] Jordan Harbinger: That makes — that's a good point, right? Because— 

[01:05:10] Vanessa Van Edwards: Never say it. 

[01:05:11] Jordan Harbinger: —we have so much self-worth and identity connected to whether or not you're a big, strong person, and that's a good thing if you're a guy, maybe not so good if you're an athletic female, who's a little self-conscious about that sometimes. And if you're a guy you don't want to be smaller than people thought because it makes you seem weaker. And if you're a woman — there's so many different— 

[01:05:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: It's very confusing. 

[01:05:29] Jordan Harbinger: Right, always. 

[01:05:29] Vanessa Van Edwards: I get offended by both. I have been offended when people tell me that I'm shorter than I thought, when people tell you I'm taller that I thought. I'm offended by both. That's crazy. 

[01:05:35] Jordan Harbinger: You really can't go right with that, right? 

[01:05:36] Vanessa Van Edwards: Nope. 

[01:05:37] Jordan Harbinger: Because you're like, "Wow, you're even prettier than I thought," it's like, well, F you then. 

[01:05:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: Boo. Boo. Agreed. 

[01:05:42] Jordan Harbinger: So what you're saying is I look terrible in all of my photos that you've seen. 

[01:05:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: That is exactly right. And I've had people actually say like, "Oh, this picture of you is like really not good. You're so much better looking in person." I'm like, "Why would you say that to me?" That is such a — I've also had people say, "You're so much nicer than you look." 

[01:05:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm. It's the RBF you got. 

[01:05:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Is that supposed to make me feel good? So okay — so yes, good. 

[01:06:02] Jordan Harbinger: I get that one all the time, but it's true because I think in this format I'm a lot harsher than I am in real life. I don't go around in real life telling people what I tell people on the show, at least not all the time. 

[01:06:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thanks? 

[01:06:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, no. I mean, I think for me— 

[01:06:16] Vanessa Van Edwards: Oh, the people think you're offline— 

[01:06:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they assume I'm going to be harsher and less friendly— 

[01:06:20] Vanessa Van Edwards: I get it. 

[01:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: —in the person.

[01:06:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: But you have to be in an interview, right? Like you're trying to like get info. 

[01:06:24] Jordan Harbinger: Well, because I'm not trying to get the — I think a lot of hosts and I won't harp on this for too long, but I think a lot of hosts are really obsessed with getting guests to like them and they want to be friends— 

[01:06:32] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[01:06:32] Jordan Harbinger: And they want to hang out and all this stuff— 

[01:06:33] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's the worst interview. 

[01:06:34] Jordan Harbinger: And it's a terrible idea. 

[01:06:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. 

[01:06:35] Jordan Harbinger: Because then they're afraid to challenge you. And so you did this and it doesn't make any sense. 

[01:06:38] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay. I promise I won't harp on this for too long, but I've done like hundreds of podcast interviews. I'm sure you have too. And the reason why you're such a good interviewer is because you listen to what I'm saying and you don't try to validate it. Like if you don't agree with it, you'll say that. The worst interviewers are the ones who are, "Amazing," after every answer.

[01:06:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:06:56] Vanessa Van Edwards: "Great advice," after every answer, and then there's no feedback or pushback. I feel like sometimes I can say anything— 

[01:07:01] Jordan Harbinger: You could, you can absolutely could. 

[01:07:02] Vanessa Van Edwards: —and they may be like, "Amazing advice, Vanessa Van Edwards." And you're like, "That didn't even like — that's not even a conversation." So then it could be a blog post. 

[01:07:09] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. There's no reason for the host to be there if they're just going to do that. 

[01:07:11] Vanessa Van Edwards: I don't have a podcast. I don't have like a blog. So the only time that I can actually talk to someone and think through ideas is as a guest on podcasts. Yes, I liked that we actually discussed things and you're hard hitting. 

[01:07:22] Jordan Harbinger: Good. I appreciate you appreciating that. 

[01:07:24] Vanessa Van Edwards: That sounded terrible that I stopped it there — but okay, number six is— 

[01:07:28] Jordan Harbinger: I didn't even think about it until—

[01:07:30] Vanessa Van Edwards: I paused and I was like, why did I pause there? And hopefully, people are like, "What?"

[01:07:33] Jordan Harbinger: Cutting tension with a knife. 

[01:07:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: A butter knife, yeah. 

[01:07:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. 

[01:07:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay, six, hands or no hands? 

[01:07:40] Jordan Harbinger: In the picture. 

[01:07:41] Vanessa Van Edwards: In the picture. 

[01:07:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. Hands in the picture. 

[01:07:43] Vanessa Van Edwards: Hands in the picture. 

[01:07:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:07:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: That is because they are trust indicators. 

[01:07:46] Jordan Harbinger: Threat Detection type stuff going on here. 

[01:07:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. And actually, for women, this had more of a statistical significance than men. So we saw a lot of women who would do like — I don't know how people are watching — like the hand on face, hand on chin, hand like taunting the hair. 

[01:08:00] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[01:08:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: So I think for women, it's actually less about the trust and it's more about the sexy self-touch. So when a woman self-touches, it makes you think, what would it be like to touch her. And so in a way, it foreshadows a nice level of touch. I think that's why for women, for hot women, that was seen more often than with men. 

[01:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: Huh, okay. And men's hands in the picture are still something? 

[01:08:21] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, but not nearly statistically significant. So I wouldn't — don't bother yourself with that one. 

[01:08:26] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. 

[01:08:26] Vanessa Van Edwards: Like it wasn't enough for a show. 

[01:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: So all high school yearbook photos, where they make you do this steepling and I'm leaning on a ladder right now because there's a ladder here. 

[01:08:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: Let's do the prom pose. Like the prom pose— 

[01:08:36] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[01:08:37] Vanessa Van Edwards: Right. Like that's exactly how it is. Or like you like hold hands, like awkwardly up at your chest level, which like no one ever does. 

[01:08:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Can we put some lasers in the background, please? 

[01:08:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[01:08:44] Jordan Harbinger: I need some lasers. 

[01:08:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: Some clouds and like when they have like spatter paint on the back of the things.

[01:08:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[01:08:49] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Okay. Last one— 

[01:08:50] Jordan Harbinger: Shout out to Lifetouch photos. 

[01:08:54] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay, the mark of a hot woman. So we found that of all the hot women, there was a consistent thing that we found over and over again. 

[01:09:03] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. Longer hair? 

[01:09:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: Nope. Actually, we saw a lot of women with shorter, like chin-length hair. 

[01:09:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that short hair. Not that it has any bearing on this particular discussion. I don't know what, what was the universal trait? 

[01:09:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: It was the Monroe gaze. So the Monroe gaze is a universal body language trait where Marilyn wrote it. That's why it's named after her. So she tilts her head back. She like makes that kind of look, so she looks— 

[01:09:26] Jordan Harbinger: Really? That's so cheesy.

[01:09:28] Vanessa Van Edwards: I know, so I think that this makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because if a man is looking at a woman and he sees like neck, where the pheromones come out, he sees the softness of her chin, which indicates high estrogen. So, you know, men are looking for high estrogen rates, so symmetrical face— 

[01:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Signs of youth and fertility, yeah. 

[01:09:42] Vanessa Van Edwards: Exactly. And so if you're tilting your head back and exposing the chin and neck, which can show high levels of estrogen and then looking at someone underneath the lashes, A, it mirrors an orgasm face. 

[01:09:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I was going to say that, then I thought better of it, okay. 

[01:09:55] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, I think I saw that on your face. 

[01:09:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you saw it go from across the eyes. 

[01:09:58] Vanessa Van Edwards: I saw it go across your eyes. 

[01:09:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:09:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: And good job. 

[01:10:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. You're welcome. 

[01:10:01] Vanessa Van Edwards: Good job, I had to say. Yeah, so that is also the orgasm face, right? And so it reminds men of that and that's why it's called the Monroe gaze. That's why Marilyn Monroe did it. The other kind, the same thing we found was like Lola Bunny. Do you remember? 

[01:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[01:10:15] Vanessa Van Edwards: Okay, so you can Google her or whatever. So Lola Bunny would also like look up through her lashes, so she would expose her neck, but looking up through her lashes. It seemed like that kind of sultry look — we have to look up real extreme or the look down with the neck exposed was the mark of a hot woman. 

[01:10:31] Jordan Harbinger: It's like Paris Hilton just got out of jail walk type of thing. 

[01:10:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's right. 

[01:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: Gotcha. 

[01:10:34] Vanessa Van Edwards: That's right. And so I don't like to advise that to women because I think unless you pull can really pull it off, it looks inauthentic. 

[01:10:42] Jordan Harbinger: It's also just such a cheesy, like really— 

[01:10:45] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know, I don't think you'd think so if you saw it.

[01:10:47] Jordan Harbinger: I'd probably not.

[01:10:48] Vanessa Van Edwards: You say that now because I'm terrible at it. 

[01:10:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Maybe that's why maybe it's just the failure of example here. 

[01:10:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: No, I'm terrible at it, especially like in a podcast environment where I'm like — you know, it's like when I flashed my neck at you, Jordan, isn't that so sexy? 

[01:11:00] Jordan Harbinger: Look at that Adam's apple. 

[01:11:00] Vanessa Van Edwards: Look at that. Look at that neck. 

[01:11:01] Jordan Harbinger: Cram it out there. 

[01:11:03] Vanessa Van Edwards: So like, yeah, I'm doing a bad example of it. 

[01:11:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:11:05] Vanessa Van Edwards: But it needs pictures, if I showed you the pictures of these women, you'd be like, "Oh." 

[01:11:08] Jordan Harbinger: Dang. Yeah. 

[01:11:09] Vanessa Van Edwards: "I get it." I say that with caution— 

[01:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: I believe you. 

[01:11:12] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. 

[01:11:12] Jordan Harbinger: I believe the data. 

[01:11:13] Vanessa Van Edwards: The data speaks for itself, but proceed with caution only do it if that feels natural to you. 

[01:11:17] Jordan Harbinger: You got a book coming out. 

[01:11:18] Vanessa Van Edwards: I do. 

[01:11:18] Jordan Harbinger: Tell us about that. 

[01:11:19] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah. Captivate. It is my personal handbook on the science of succeeding with people. 

[01:11:24] Jordan Harbinger: And it's coming out? 

[01:11:25] Vanessa Van Edwards: April 25th and it's all of my favorite human behavior hacks. So there's 14 of them. They're all based in science. And we share a bunch of my original research in there as well. 

[01:11:34] Jordan Harbinger: Nice. 

[01:11:35] Vanessa Van Edwards: I'm very excited for it to come out. I hope people like it.

[01:11:37] Jordan Harbinger: Including your husband's food habits. I'm sure those are in there. 

[01:11:39] Vanessa Van Edwards: You know what? I don't think that one's in there, but I'll have some other pretty embarrassing stories too.

[01:11:42] Jordan Harbinger: In the sequel, It's in the sequel. 

[01:11:44] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yeah, Captivate 2. 

[01:11:45] Jordan Harbinger: That's good. All right. And that'll be linked up in the show notes. 

[01:11:47] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, please. Next time — I'm going to get you a pituitary gland necklace. 

[01:11:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's just going to be like a golden ball. 

[01:11:53] Vanessa Van Edwards: A giant one, just one ball. And then when people see it, they're going to be like, "Oh, I guess I know a lot about him. 

[01:11:57] Jordan Harbinger: He's got a cat testicle on his necklace. 

[01:11:59] Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes. And it got veins and everything.

[01:12:02] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you very much for that. 

[01:12:04] Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank you. 

[01:12:05] Jordan Harbinger: Now I've got some thoughts in this episode, but before we get into that, here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[01:12:12] Chris Voss: Chase Manhattan Bank robbery, I'm a second negotiator on the phone. Hugh McGowan is the commander of the NYPD team. He puts me on the phone. He takes this guy off. He says, "You're up. You're next. This is what I want you to do. You're just going to take over the phone and say, 'You're talking to me now,' and we're going to do it really abruptly." My point is to get a hostage out, which is what the hostage negotiator is supposed to do. And somebody hands me a note and says, "Ask him if he wants to come out." That was somebody that was listening, my friend, Jamie, Jamie Sedano. Jamie is sitting there and something in Jamie's instinct is telling him at this guy wants to come out, more than anything else. He just hears it and he writes, "Ask him if he wants to come out." I see no popping in front of my face. 

[01:12:53] So I go, "Do you want to come out?" and there's a little silence on the other end of the line. And the guy says, "Oh, I don't know how to do that," which is a great big giant yes. 

[01:13:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[01:13:05] Chris Voss: Everybody goes like, "Holy cow. Okay, get him out of there." I'm talking, I'm talking, I'm talking again probably about, I don't know, maybe half an hour later, another note comes to my hand. I don't know where it's from, as it turns out is from Jamie again. And the note says, "Tell me you'll meet him outside." and I say to him, "How about this? I'm going to meet you at the front of the bank." And he goes, "Yeah, I'm ready to end this sh*t." I get out there, get on the PA and start talking to him. So I said, "Hi, it's Chris. I'm out here." 

[01:13:36] Standard operating procedure is to barricade the exit from the outside. So the bad guy suddenly doesn't run away. So SWAT has barricaded the bank from the outside, which everyone has forgotten. So I'm trying to talk this guy out the door. We don't know how many bad guys are inside. We don't know how they're going to react, we don't know if they're going to start shooting. We don't know what the hell's going to happen. He comes to the door and chickens out.

[01:14:04] Jordan Harbinger: Oh god. 

[01:14:05] Chris Voss: He rattles that door. It was like, ah. 

[01:14:07] Jordan Harbinger: He's nervous, right? I mean, "Oh, crap. I'm trapped in here now." 

[01:14:10] Chris Voss: On the opposite, we go, "Now what do we do, we forgot to unlock the door."

[01:14:16] And our bad guy is kind of like, "Oh, you want to play games with me, huh?" 

[01:14:23] Jordan Harbinger: For more from FBI hostage, negotiator, Chris Voss, including negotiation and persuasion tips along with a few crazy stories, check out episode 165 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[01:14:36] Big thank you to Vanessa Van Edwards. Links to all things Vanessa, including all her books and courses will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Please use our website links if you buy books from any guest on the show, it helps support this show. Transcripts are in the show notes. Videos are on YouTube. Advertisers, deals, and discount codes, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. 

[01:15:04] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems, software, tiny habits, the same stuff I do every single day, that's our six-minute networking course. That course is free, always will be. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you get thirsty folks, build those relationships before you need them. Most of the guests you hear on the show actually subscribe and contribute to that same course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company. 

[01:15:29] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's really into body language and all this nonverbal communication stuff that enthralled me for so many years, definitely share this episode with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.