639: Dealing with Your Darling’s DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) | Feedback Friday

639: Dealing with Your Darling’s DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always. I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Xi Jinping to my Vladimir Putin, Gabriel Mizrahi. It's relevant. Give me that one. At least, it's relevant. 

[00:00:16] On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So we want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.

[00:00:41] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of incredible folks from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors. This week, we had Bill von Hippel talking about why we evolved the ability to be social along with other evolutionary psychology, such an interesting episode. I'm a sucker for this topic. Bill really crushed it. You're really going to love this. If you love, why humans are the way they are. All of our weird quirks from why we're afraid of the dark to why we're able to throw things accurately. And of course, we had Yuriy, a soldier on the front lines there in Kyiv in Ukraine, just an amazing perspective. One, I haven't seen told on television or on the radio pretty much anywhere. And Yuriy really was a fascinating character. If you're interested in this conflict in Ukraine, you're following the war, this is a must-listen episode. He was really something special. So make sure you have a listen to everything we created for you here this week. 

[00:01:40] All right. This segment is sponsored by Better Help. Now, Better Help wants me to give you the following trigger warning. Abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, self-harm, and suicide are discussed in this segment. 

[00:01:50] Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:01:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my girlfriend has dissociative identity disorder, previously known as multiple personality disorder. This was probably caused by a past trauma in her life. She grew up with two abusive parents, one of whom sexually abused her, starting at the age of 11 until we started dating in high school. She's now in college and working at a restaurant while I work an intense office job. We're both extremely busy and don't have a lot of time to see each other. When we do see each other, most of my time is spent dealing with her being upset and physically abusive toward herself. Obviously, this is not the way my girlfriend wants life to be. She, that is the main alter or main identity, does not mean to hurt herself. Yet, another alter is somewhat suicidal, but that tendency is suppressed by the rest of her system. She's been in therapy for over a year now, but things seem to get more difficult every day. I have no idea how I should go about helping her. The fact that she eats a rather unhealthy diet, is not physically active, and spends time every week still with her parents that probably contributes to the problem, but she seems uninterested in seriously addressing any of these issues. I worked 12-hour days on the regular, sometimes longer. So the last thing I want to do is deal with my girlfriend dissociating and hitting her from the time I get home until she falls asleep. They're also very happy moments in the relationship, but her condition is a black cloud over our lives. I'm always worried she may not make it much further, but I still maintain hope that things can get better. So what can I do to help her. Signed, Confronting the Split. 

[00:03:26] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. This is quite a relationship there's a lot going on in this letter. And I'm very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I can only imagine how intense and difficult this must be for you. I'm also very sorry for your girlfriend. She's clearly been through such a lot in her life and she's obviously struggling to handle all of it now. We wanted to consult with an actual expert on your question. So we spoke with Haesue Jo, licensed marriage and family therapist, and head of clinical operations at Better Help, the world's largest online therapy service. You've heard of them, they sponsored the show. 

[00:04:00] So, first of all, a quick word about dissociative identity disorder. For anyone who doesn't know, DID is a mental health condition where a person has two or more separate identities. These personalities, or alters as they're called, they control the person's behavior at different times. And each alter often has its own history traits, likes, dislikes, all of that. Obviously, a very complex disorder, one that clinicians are still coming to understand and a disorder that makes a relationship quite hard for obvious reasons. 

[00:04:34] As Haesue explains to us these alters, they often emerge after past trauma, usually in childhood, because some part of the mind wants to protect the person from further trauma. And sometimes an alter or even multiple alters can become highly defensive of the host, which is the most prominent personality and often tries to sabotage intimate relationships as a result. Now, since your girlfriend grew up in an abusive household, she probably developed some mechanisms to defend herself, which might mean pushing people away sometimes. So Haesue said that your girlfriend's response to you, it probably isn't always about you. It's just her system trying to protect her. 

[00:05:16] But the hardest thing about DID is that there is no cure. There's some debate about this, but the consensus seems to be that did is treatable with a combination of talk therapy and medication. Mostly though, it's about managing symptoms and it can take years before a patient achieves what's called integration. Which in a nutshell is when the person works through the trauma and acknowledges these pieces of themselves, so they can form a more coherent personality. But even then many experts say that integration isn't about getting rid of the alters, it's about bringing them together in conscious awareness. So the remnants of the DID may very well. There's a lot more to say about all that, but we can't go down a hole DID rabbit hole here. So I'm just going to leave it there. 

[00:06:01] But given all of that, the best thing you can do for your girlfriend is to encourage her to find the support that she needs. Now, it's not clear that the therapy she's in right now is working and who knows why that is. It could be her therapist. It could be the way she's presenting in therapy. It could be that she isn't actively participating in the process, but Haesue's take, rather than telling your girlfriend that what she's doing isn't working, you might be better off asking her what she thinks is working. 

[00:06:29] The best approach, Haesue said, is to invite her to talk about this more. Like, "Hey, how's therapy going? Do you think it's helping? What do you find helpful? What isn't helpful? Are there ways that I can support you?" And that last question, that is key because it signals your support without taking too much of your girlfriend's stuff on yourself. It also gives her the space to step up and tell you what she really needs. Haesue pointed out that it would also be helpful for you to learn what she's learning in therapy. Coping strategies, insights, techniques, whatever it is, so that you can help her use those strategies to regain control. And part of this process is learning more about your girlfriend's particular triggers.

[00:07:11] A big thing with DID is that the person will get activated by a variety of things. And those stimuli can create a subtle shift into an alter. So Haesue's advice is to learn what those triggers are, whether they are places smells, sounds, touch, being around certain groups of people like her parents, or maybe even certain times of year, whatever it is. And this isn't about by the way, avoiding all those triggers for the rest of her life. Because a lot of these triggers just exist in the outside world and you cannot control them, but it's good to know what they are. So at least, you can recognize them and hopefully help your girlfriend regain some control when they do appear.

[00:07:50] Now, the hardest thing is probably knowing what to do when the DID acts up. We asked Haesue about that too. And she said that when an alter is presenting itself, do not try to mess around with that person because the truth is you're probably not going to be able to reason with your partner in that moment. The best approach, be honest, be calm, stay level-headed. As uncomfortable and confusing as these episodes are for everyone, it's, of course, even more upsetting for your partner. She might not even realize what's happening and then when she comes out of it and the host personality re-presents itself, you can help explain anything that she might have missed or forgotten. That can be helpful. But when it happens, you really just have to be very gentle and present, which is probably quite challenging and scary, but it's really your only option.

[00:08:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that makes sense to me. But all of that said, I do think we have to talk about you. Now from your letter, you sound like a very giving partner. You have tremendous compassion for your girlfriend as you should, but this is also a lot for one person to handle and definitely more than you could possibly fix on your own. I mean, you're basically playing caregiver here, which is an incredibly tricky role to play, especially because your girlfriend doesn't seem to be doing everything she can to help herself. She's spending time every week with the parents who abused her, she's engaging in self-harm. She's eating poorly. She's not physically active. And according to you, she doesn't seem interested in seriously addressing these issues. That is really tough, man. And I'm honestly not sure how you can have a healthy relationship with somebody if they're not taking care of themselves in these basic ways. 

[00:09:31] And by the way, I would say that even if the DID were not part of this. So I would really consider if this is the relationship you want to be in. And to be clear, that is your choice to make. Haesue and Jordan and I, we're not telling you to break up with your girlfriend. That is your decision entirely, but Haesue did make a good point, which is that your girlfriend, she didn't get to choose this childhood. She didn't get to choose this diagnosis, but your involvement with her, that is a choice. And Haesue was very emphatic about one thing, which is you cannot expect yourself to save other people. There are places and facilities and experts and treatments out there for your girlfriend. And I hope she looks for them. But you can't force her to do anything. We talk about this on the show all the time. I don't want to belabor the point. That is ultimately the boundary we come up against with other people all the time. 

[00:10:23] So given all that, really the best thing you can do, like Jordan said, is empower your girlfriend to seek her own help. And most importantly, dude, take care of yourself. And that means maintaining the boundary we just talked about, getting your own sources of support. And as Haesue pointed out, it also means accepting that you're going to let your partner down from time to time. You know, sometimes you're going to be the bad guy. Sometimes, she's going to see you as the source of her anger or her shame or her sadness, or possibly even her relived trauma. And that's pretty scary because the repercussions of provoking somebody with DID can be so much more severe. But Haesue said that if you keep downplaying your own needs, like if you keep sacrificing parts of yourself to maintain this relationship, that will probably turn into resentment or other dysfunction eventually, or you're just going to feel super burnt out by this relationship, which I think is the point you're starting to get to right now. And I'm going to guess that that's not the outcome that you want either. 

[00:11:21] Jordan Harbinger: No, of course not, but that's where he is right now. And I'm not even sure that he realizes how dysfunctional all of this really is. My take, and this is just me talking now, just Jordan, I would really, really consider if this relationship is sustainable. If your girlfriend were consistently working on her treatment, if she were showing signs of improvement, that would be a different story, but she's not. You have to ask yourself, is this the role I want to play for this person? Could I be with her for the rest of my life? So just to be super blunt, and again, I get to do that because I'm not a shrink and I'm not treating you guys. I'm just a guy with a microphone. My advice is that you need to draw a line here and take care of yourself and your girlfriend needs to sincerely engage with serious professional help. 

[00:12:09] And if you end this relationship, I know you might be worried about that, but you could be the catalyst for her to get that help. Because part of me wonders if she thinks she doesn't need that help, as long as you're around, but really that's just a form of codependency and enabling, and that is bad news for both of you. But if you ultimately decide to stick around, I would ask yourself what drew you to this relationship in the first place, and what's keeping you around now because there's a lot for you to discover in that question, your girlfriend's challenges aside.

[00:12:40] And I feel for you, man. I really do. This is not an easy position to be in, but it's also forcing you to get very honest with yourself and with your girlfriend about what you guys truly need. So I take that seriously and I would do what's right for both of you. We're sending you good thoughts and wishing you the best. 

[00:12:59] And big thanks to Haesue Jo over at Better Help online therapy, betterhelp.com/jordan to help support the show and to frankly, get started in therapy. 

[00:13:08] This segment was sponsored by Better Help.

[00:13:10] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

[00:13:17] This episode is sponsored in part by Siempre Tequila. This is a really good tequila. And I'm one of those people that, you know, I had to spend a few years away from tequila. Let's just say it was one of the first things that I drank when I was learning how to drink. And you know how that goes. But my friends who started this company, they do a brilliant job with it. I drank the Anejo, which is wood-aged for whiskey lovers. It's almost like whiskey tequila. They really have open-air fermentation and they use volcanic springwater and all this fancy stuff. The founders started the company with their life savings and a credit card, and they go all-in on this tequila. They use blue weber agave from the highlands and the lowlands. They just are obsessed with it. The Reposado is aged six months in new American white oak barrels, the Anejo who is 24 months in bourbon barrels. That's what I've been maybe or maybe not drinking before the show, a lot of the time when I sound like I'm in a really good mood. A lot of tequilas, you know, celebrities, they own it or they drink it or whatever, and they could only afford me. So they really do need your support. The Kendall Jenner was nowhere near this thing, okay. So ask for Siempre at your local mom and pop wine and spirits store or find them online, shop.siempretequila.com. That's shop.S-I-E-M-P-R-E-T-E-Q-U-I-L-A.com. Use promo code JORDAN. Get 20 percent off orders of a hundred bucks or more and follow Siempre Tequila on Instagram at @siempretequila. Cheers or salute.

[00:14:40] This episode is sponsored in part by Seekr. Seekr is building their own independent search engine. So it's not like a veneer over another search engine. It's actually its own search engine. And what's interesting about it is they give you a score of each of the sites. So you get an analysis of whether it's like the article you're clicking on is like a bunch of personal attacks and an article or a clickbait or incoherence or left or right-wing crazy. If there's no byline, so it's written by nobody. It's too subjective. That's really useful when you're trying to read actual news and thoughts and think pieces, instead of somebody just making something for clicks or whining online or venting, and they streamline access to better and reliable information, right? So they're using AI and machine learning to enhance transparency in these articles. And that score that you see next to the article is really, really, helpful to pick what you should spend your time reading. So go to seekr.com to learn how you can make better decisions with access to better information. That's S-E-E-K-R.com.

[00:15:37] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. 

[00:15:51] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:15:55] All right, next up. 

[00:15:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. So I have a little bit of a thing for West Point grads. They're just a cut above and how smart, strong, and disciplined they are. A few years ago, I matched with a West Point grad on Bumble when we were both vacationing in South America. We didn't talk, but I stalked him a little and was, of course, very impressed with his profile. Fast forward a couple of years, I just saw him on LinkedIn and added him. He added me back. I want to slide into his DMs and make a good impression, not trying to be creepy, but I think it would be great to have him in my network. 

[00:16:27] Mmhm. 

[00:16:28] Jordan Harbinger: Mmhm. 

[00:16:29] Mmhm. 

[00:16:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: We're both working in the FinTech industry in New York City. He already achieved his CFA, which I'm studying for. So I thought I could start the conversation with how it's tough to study for the CFA while working, but that might be too basic. How do I reach out? Signed, Sliding into those DMs Without Causing 

[00:16:48] Jordan Harbinger: Well, well, well, Gabe, there's something so funny about somebody trying to shoot their shot on LinkedIn. It's like flirting with somebody at a funeral, or like trying to talk about genocide at a birthday party or something. 

[00:17:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. 

[00:17:01] Jordan Harbinger: The venue is just so mismatched, right? But I'm also kind of relieved to hear that women do this kind of thing too because I feel like it's just usually dudes who are low-key chatting up women on LinkedIn under the guise of discussing their credentials or whatever.

[00:17:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. 

[00:17:16] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, I find this question very endearing. It would be great to have this super attractive West Point grad in your network. Like, all up in your network, girl. But look, I get it. We all want to meet the people we want to meet. And sometimes the only place to do that is in the chat app of the world's most dusty, boring social network. So it's been years since I've been asked for dating advice like this, but it's kind of fun. 

[00:17:44] Here's my take. In short, what you say matters less than how you say it, and then how he responds. You can start with the CFA thing. Why not? It's something you all have in common. And if he's like, "Oh yeah, I remember you. The CFA was brutal. How's it going for you?" You know, if he seems open, then you can just banter from there. Talk about New York. Talk about work. Talk about that trip to South America. You guys have a lot in common, but if he's like, "Oh yeah,. Hey, cool, good luck on the CFA." And he doesn't engage with the next message. I would just leave it there. 

[00:18:14] I know this is really general advice and I know you want me to be like your hitch here, but honestly your best bet is to just be friendly and funny and authentic and see if you guys are on the same page. From there. I don't know. Maybe you invite them to coffee or a walk or you go read The Economist in a Barnes & Noble, not sure what you CFA types do for fun.

[00:18:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Probably that, yep. 

[00:18:35] Jordan Harbinger: And if things get more personal when the moment is right, I would just jump over to texting. You don't want to be living in that buttoned-up LinkedIn environment for too long. That could keep you boxed into a certain tone or a certain set of topics. 

[00:18:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Plus you don't want your thirsty DMs to your future husband to be stored on those LinkedIn servers forever, right? Like that's a bit off. Although if you did get married, that would be an amazing artifact to break out. 

[00:18:59] Actually, that's funny. It reminds me of my really good friend got married to her college boyfriend a few years ago. And on their wedding invitation website, they pasted their very first Facebook conversation from like 2004. And the groom literally opened his first message to her by saying, "Yo, BZ." And like everyone was greeting each other as Yo, BZ at this wedding. It was hilarious. 

[00:19:23] Jordan Harbinger: That's great. You know, I met Jen on Twitter. I don't know how many people know that. I probably told this story before but we met on Twitter. I was at my best friend's wedding and I was super bored because my parents wanted it, they're like, "We got to get there early." We showed up like five hours early and they're like, "You can't even come into the reception venue at all." So I was ridiculous. And so I'm on my phone, just draining the battery, and tweeted at Jen because I saw something funny that she had posted. And I went back, I actually had somebody on Twitter, go get the tweets after they were deleted. I probably wasn't supposed to disclose that by the way, but whatever, they don't work there anymore. And so I have them and they are, yeah, nothing special, really? Not that funny, not that entertaining, but they're sort of special to me. And Jen thinks that one of my really lame jokes that I made in there was hilarious. So there you have it. 

[00:20:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, I kind of love that, actually. I didn't know that that's how you — I mean, I knew you met on Twitter, but I didn't know it was because you were early to the wedding. So basically, your dad being a super dad is why you met Jen. 

[00:20:17] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. And romance was in the air because it was my best friend from childhood's wedding. And I know people want to know what the joke was that she liked and I'll tell you what it is. So I went to the farmer's market some weeks prior, some days prior, and somebody was selling Medjool dates, which I love, right? So bought a bag of them and I took a photo and I said, "Bagged some dates at the farmer's market." You know, like got some dates at the farmer's — anyway, so she thought that was hilarious. I told you it wasn't a good joke. 

[00:20:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, cracking jokes— 

[00:20:43] Jordan Harbinger: People are going to email me and ask, so I'm just saving myself here. 

[00:20:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: You've been cracking dad jokes from day one. Incredible. 

[00:20:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's why they're so sharp and so well tuned. 

[00:20:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: You've been honing your craft for years. But wait, hold on, what'd you say Medjool dates. I always thought they were muh-jool dates. Are they med-jool? 

[00:20:59] Jordan Harbinger: Aren't they called med-jool date? I really honestly never learned how to pronounce that word. So M-E-D-J-O-O-L. 

[00:21:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like my med-jool that sounds like something you would put on the back of a cell phone. 

[00:21:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:21:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like me-jeweled or me-dazzled.

[00:21:14] Jordan Harbinger: You know what? This is boring everyone including myself. So just continue, freaking answer the question. 

[00:21:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, another thing you could do with this guy, if you want is you could ask him for some advice on studying for the CFA while you work. And then if there's a connection you can pivot, you know, to more personal stuff. And if there isn't a connection, then at least you got some solid life advice and good career advice. Although Jordan, I don't know. I also hesitate to say that because, it's interesting, I feel like if this were a guy writing in and he wanted to chat up a woman on LinkedIn under the guise of asking her for career advice, some people would consider that kind of like what gross, manipulative. Is that a double standard?

[00:21:52] Jordan Harbinger: It is a double standard, but you know what, who cares in this instance, right? Like use that to your advantage. Yeah. It's a double standard. Oh my god, if a guy did that — fine, who cares? We're not trying to solve dating equality and gender politics. We're just trying to get— 

[00:22:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. 

[00:22:07] Jordan Harbinger: She's trying to get it in, you know, on LinkedIn. 

[00:22:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: She is trying to get a date.

[00:22:11] Jordan Harbinger: So let her, let her do it, trying to bag some dates on LinkedIn. 

[00:22:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. 

[00:22:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Embrace the double standard. 

[00:22:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also to be fair, I do have a bunch of friends who got to know their partners through work. In fact, now that I think about it, one of them, she actually did meet her husband on LinkedIn. So, why not? 

[00:22:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:22:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's got to be thousands of LinkedIn babies running around the earth right now, Jordan. Probably all future MBAs if I had to guess. As long as you're respectful, I think you're safe. Be friendly. Be cool. Read his cues. It's just like meeting somebody in person except you can peruse each other's professional endorsements while you flirt over fixed income or whatever you guys talk about. 

[00:22:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. And decide if it's ethical at your wedding. Who cares? Worst-case scenario, he doesn't engage. But if he does, you're going to be happy that you tried. Just don't say anything. That's going to get you banned from LinkedIn because you might have to explain that to future employers or recruiters. Like, "Yeah. I'm not actually on LinkedIn. So I can't add the rest of the workgroup there. Something, something, no nudes in DMs. Point is I didn't get your InMail." So go shoot your shot. Get your man. But most importantly, get your CFA because those certs are important. 

[00:23:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. 

[00:23:18] Jordan Harbinger: You know, plus that extra earning potential when you pass, hey, you're going to be beating them off with a stick. Good luck.

[00:23:24] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on life, love, work. What to do if your brother-in-law's pushing you to adopt his kids when you don't even want kids, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. 

[00:23:51] All right, next up. 

[00:23:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, my boyfriend and I are in our 20s and we've been dating for almost two years. In the beginning, our relationship was great. We shared the same values, interests and long-term goals. We had meaningful conversations and could not be separated. I saw a future husband in this man. But since then, my respect and desire for him have slowly eroded. As I became more aware of his tendency toward procrastination. To give you one example, he recently told me that he had one class left before he graduates from a four-year university. He had taken this class before but failed, which meant he had to retake it. Then last year, he applied for his academic loan, one week before classes started. He didn't get approved in time and he wasn't able to register it. A few months later, he spoke with his advisor and learned that he actually has three classes to complete before he graduates. All three classes are part of the core curriculum. So they can be taken at a local community college for a fraction of the cost. He applied for admission and aid, but yet again, did not get approved in time, delaying his graduation, even further. I take all of this to mean that he doesn't care about his academic career. I graduated with honors on time and I find it difficult to have sympathy for someone who's not on top of their responsibilities. Instead of taking ownership of his situation, he plays the victim and repeatedly says that he needs to speak with his advisor. I asked him if he read through the curriculum and compare that with his transcript and all he could say was, "I need to speak with my advisor." He's also been unemployed for months. He doesn't have money for groceries, rent, or bills, and he's scrambling. Meanwhile, I've already worked full time for two years and saved enough for a mini-retirement. I feel guilty for enjoying my time away from work, even though the goal of this break is to sort out my mental health. I take life by the reins. And I feel like my boyfriend has started letting life happen to him. Now, I feel like a bad partner because I'm abandoning him during his greatest time of need. But I also feel like his situation has infected my own. His lack of money is my lack of money. His lack of food is my lack of food. He has very few friends. Both his mom and dad refused to offer financial assistance. He was ineligible for unemployment and he was denied food stamps. So I've now taken a lot of the financial burden upon myself. I also recently got a diagnosis of bipolar II. This has thrown yet another wrench into the situation because some days I believe in my boyfriend 100 percent and other days, I'm afraid that he's bound to make the same mistakes in the future. How do I walk the line between being a caring partner while also maintaining my own mental health and financial well-being? Signed, Deepen a hole Playing All These Roles. 

[00:26:31] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, boy, I really feel for you here. You're super on top of your life. You're ambitious and your boyfriend is struggling. Of course, this is going to cause a ton of friction. It's one thing when you're casually dating somebody, who's kind of a mess. You can usually just kind of let that roll off your back. But once you get involved with some. To your point, their situation becomes your situation. Their methods, their habits, they have a direct impact on your stability, your finances and your wellbeing. You can't separate the same way from a closed partner. So yeah, you're in a difficult spot here. The first thing I want to share is that your boyfriend's procrastination, it's obviously an issue. And I think he knows that, but I also suspect that there's a lot more going on underneath the procrastination. There always is. 

[00:27:19] So what you experienced as not caring about his academic career, that could be true, but it's probably only part of the story. Procrastination has many causes, but one of the most common and also one of the most difficult to work on is when procrastination is a form of avoidance. Now, we don't know your boy. We don't know what he's going through right now, but I'd be willing to bet that whatever he's dealing with at school, in the classes themselves, in the process of planning out his courses and getting financial aid, maybe even in thinking about what he's going to do once he graduates, whatever it is, it's bringing up some very unpleasant stuff for him because you don't just sleep on your loan documents or forget to check your degree requirements because you're lazy, it's because taking responsibility for that stuff brings up certain thoughts or feelings that are simply too overwhelming. And so it's probably more tempting for him to bury his head in the sand or defer to his academic counselor than to tolerate those feelings and work through them. 

[00:28:20] Now, I am not saying this to let him off the hook, just to appreciate that what seems outwardly like simple procrastination is usually a much more complicated process than you might realize. And it probably goes way back. The question is, do you help your boyfriend fix all of that? My take, yes, but only up to a point. I think your boyfriend deserves at least one fair shot at seriously, working on this pattern and turning the ship around. And that starts with a real heart to heart about what you're noticing. How you see his procrastination holding him back? Why it's becoming an issue in the relationship, not just financially and logistically, but also emotionally? How it's a real concern for you? Given that you have such a different relationship to your responsibilities.

[00:29:08] Now, part of this conversation is being really honest with him about your frustrations. Maybe even how his approach is changing the way you feel about him. That is an extremely difficult thing to hear from a partner. So I recommend being as kind as you can. But I also think he needs to hear that and you clearly need to get it off your chest as well.

[00:29:28] But while you do that, I would also make space for him to talk about why he finds these responsibilities so difficult. He might not even understand that fully. You might have to guide him. I would ask him what happened in that class he failed, what comes up when he has to meet with his advisor or when he can't meet with his advisor. How's he thinking about his career in general? Listen to him, help him process what he talks about. Hopefully, guide him to the roots of the procrastinatory behavior. And look, he already knows this is a problem. I mean, you're paying for the freaking gas in his car and the food and the fridge. He obviously knows that he's slacking and I'm guessing he has some pretty intense shame about that.

[00:30:08] So you have to be gentle with him, but you also have to be direct. You have to cut through the fog of his avoidance. You owe him that honesty. And then I would go back and ask him point-blank. Do you think you need to change? And if he says yes, and then I would say, "Great, I do too. So how are you going to do that? How can I support you?" And then encourage him to come up with a plan, deadlines, calendars, blocked out study time, therapy, better habits, whatever it is, but let him come up with that plan. 

[00:30:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. And that is where we get to the limit of your influence here. Because as his partner, I agree with Jordan, you do owe him this conversation. But that doesn't mean fixing this problem for him. You can't manage his calendar. He can't fill out his financial aid applications. I mean, you can, if that's what you want to do, but that's not real support. That's co-dependence. And based on what you've shared, I'm guessing that that wouldn't really help your feelings about him right now. I mean like nothing sexier than having to tell your boyfriend to fill out his FAFSA form for the eighth time. Am I right? So that's the hard part here, walking that line. You know, being supportive as he rewrites this very ingrained pattern but not taking on even more of his stuff in the process. 

[00:31:20] Some days you might find it very easy to back off and let him figure this out. Other days, you might realize that you're three hours deep into pulling up his tax returns. And then you're going to have to check in with yourself and be like, "Actually, no, not my job, I need to pull back. Let him lead. This is his thing." But at the end of the day, I think you guys know what I'm about to say, right? You can't make him do anything. He has to want to do it. And he has to actually do it. And it's kind of similar to the question we took in the beginning of this episode, right? With the guy who has the girlfriend with DID, she's the one wrestling with it. She's the one who has to take responsibility for it. He can support but he can't make her do anything. 

[00:31:56] I would also get clear with yourself on what progress looks like here. Your boyfriend isn't going to do a 180 overnight. It's just not realistic, but he might be able to incrementally get better over three months or six months or a year. Are you okay with that? Are you willing to invest that time for him to change? Only? You could answer those questions for yourself, but they're important ones to consider. 

[00:32:17] Now, the bipolar II diagnosis is very interesting. That does add a new variable here, because I'm sure that that bipolar lens changes the way you view your boyfriend. And I think it also might change your view of your own ability to help him. And I imagine that that's pretty hard for you to not know exactly which version of events to believe. My best advice there is to bring this into therapy. And if you're not already there, I would find a good one stat. So you have a place to process all of this. See it more objectively with the help of a professional. And hey, maybe couples counseling if your boyfriend's open to. It could be great for you guys to have a place to talk about all of this together. 

[00:32:55] But for what it's worth, it sounds to me like you're seeing the situation quite clearly. You're being honest about your own feelings, about your boyfriend, but you're also having compassion for him. That feels right to me. That seems fair. Your letter doesn't sound manic or totally hopeless or super one-sided. It just sounds like somebody who's clearly. About our values and about our goals and who wants our partner to be on the same page and not just for your sake, but for his sake. That's very reasonable from where I'm sitting.

[00:33:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, same for me. It's really hard. Maybe impossible actually to have a totally functional relationship where one person is a mess and the other person is super on top of their stuff. It also just makes life so much harder. Making plans, achieving goals, lining up schedules, being on the same life timeline. This is one of those dimensions where both people have to be at least like 70 percent on the same page, or it just gets too chaotic and breeds resentment. And that's my experience anyway. 

[00:33:52] So I hope you can get through to your boyfriend. He's lucky to have you in his court. If you can help him, you might save your relationship, but you'll probably change his life. But he has to be ready to do the work. So good luck, friend. We're rooting for both of you. 

[00:34:08] You know, what else would be a fine use of those sweet, sweet tuition dollars, now that that loan is finally approved? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:34:19] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show. And this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back.

[00:34:24] This episode is sponsored in part by Huel. As soon as I wake up, I'm working out with my trainer, a quick shower, interview, phone call. Next thing, I know it's lunchtime and I've had like a coffee, so I get hangry, but I only have 30 minutes to eat before my next meeting. And that is one reason that I have Huel. Huel, human fuel, it's all carbs, protein, fats, fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals that you need. Everything is plant-based, which is nice. They have a wide range of convenient on-the-go options for somebody who wants to eat healthy, but just doesn't have a ton of time, like a lot of my Mondays. Huel powder comes in all the classic flavors like vanilla, chocolate, salted caramel, and more. You mix it with water. You're ready to go. There's also ready-to-drink options to help you save even more time. You can rock that on an airplane if you need it. Huel is quick, easy, tasty. 

[00:35:07] Jen Harbinger: Huel is proof that fast food can be good food. We dig it and you will too. And right now you can get free shipping on your first order plus a shaker and a free t-shirt. Go to huel.com/jordan. That's H-U-E-L.com/jordan to get free shipping on your first order plus the shaker and t-shirt, huel.com/jordan.

[00:35:25] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. What's one thing you'd purchase with a little extra savings? Weighted blankets, smart speaker, the new self-care trend you keep hearing about. Well, progressive wants to make sure you're getting what you want by helping you save money on car insurance. Drivers who saved by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average, and customers can qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up, discounts like having multiple vehicles on your policy. Progressive offers outstanding coverage and award-winning claim service. Day or night, they have customer support, 24/7. 365 days a year. When you need a most, they're at their best. A little off your rate each month goes a long way. Get a quote today at progressive.com. See why four out of five new auto customers recommend Progressive. 

[00:36:05] Jen Harbinger: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National Annual Average Insurance Savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2020 and May 2021. Potential savings will vary. Discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations.

[00:36:18] Jordan Harbinger: And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

[00:36:22] All right. What's next? 

[00:36:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my family has moved constantly from state to state and county to county, most recently, due to my dad's work. In total, I've moved about nine or 10 times. Being a 16-year-old and never staying in one place for more than three years sucks. A year ago, we moved to North Carolina, settling on a house in a rural area with two acres of wooded land. Shortly, after we moved in, our neighbors decided to buy two goats. At first, my mom was all for the neighbors, buying the goats until she realized that every morning, she'd look out our windows and see the goats. She now hates them saying half-jokingly, "I want to kill them." My mother and father have tried to get the neighbors to move the goats, but they refused. My mom now thinks that they're going to keep buying animals and turn our morning coffee view into a morning coffee zoo. We've already paid a lawyer for consultation. My mother is now pushing hard for a move again, which I'm dreading. So what can I do to prevent my family from relocating again? Signed, Up in Arms About Another People. 

[00:37:25] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, bud, this is tough. I am sorry that you guys have moved so much. That can be very destabilizing at a young age. It also sounds to me like your mom isn't factoring in what all of this change has been like for you. And now she's thinking about moving again, this time over something relatively minor. It also makes me wonder about her, but I'll get to that in a minute. So if you think your mom is serious about moving again for no good reason. I would have a frank conversation with her. 

[00:37:54] I would sit down with her and say, "You know, mom, listen, I know this goat thing is a little annoying. I understand that you don't want Joe exotics roadside zoo popping up next door to the house. But if we move again because of a few animals next door, I just need you to know that would be really hard for me. We have moved 10 times already. I know sometimes, we had to. I get that we moved here for dad's job, but I've packed up my stuff and settled into a new state and started at a new school more times than I ever thought I would have to. I know you don't mean to make things tough for me, but this constant moving around it is tough for me. It makes things chaotic. It makes me feel like I never know if our new home is really our home. I'm in the last two years of high school. Moving now would be really disruptive. It would be so nice to stay here just until I graduate. And I don't want to go through that again, especially over something as minor as a couple of goats." 

[00:38:53] Basically help your mom appreciate your experience here because it sounds to me like that's been lost in the shuffle. And while you do that, try to understand what this is like for her, because Gabe, we don't have the full story here, but there's obviously something going on with mom.

[00:39:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah, there's definitely something going on with mom. I mean, I understand having to move your family because your husband gets a job in another state. Fair enough. That happens all the time, but nine or 10 times over a very short period of time and now wanting to move again because she has to look at some cute animals through the kitchen window and also saying she wants to kill them, even if it is half-joking and she's already hired a lawyer. I don't know. I'm just getting like a high-strung mom vibe from this letter. 

[00:39:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. High-strung mom at the very least, maybe something more severe. I mean, look, I also probably wouldn't want to live next to a zoo, but does she know for sure these people are going to get more animals? 

[00:39:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Or is she just looking for another reason to move? That's kind of where my mind went because ultimately this isn't that big of a deal. And if they move her child is the one who's going to pay the price. So I would also try to help your mom see these goats in a new light if you can. Maybe you guys go over to the neighbor's house one day, spend some time with the goats. Get some animal therapy. Maybe you can show her that they're actually pretty cute and they're not doing anyone any harm. I just realized that I definitely sound like a guy who just did goat yoga for the first time, but— 

[00:40:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah, yeah. The first time, the first and only time that you've done goat yoga. 

[00:40:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was the first and only time, but I'm going to go back. 

[00:40:19] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:40:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's happening.

[00:40:20] And while you're over there, you know, ask the neighbors, whether they're planning on getting more animals, find out if your mom's worst-case scenario is actually true. This could totally be a story that she spun up in her mind to justify wanting to move again. Maybe you could put that fear to bed, or at least help her see that a few more animals next door, not the worst thing in the world, because it sounds to me like mom has some very rigid ideas about what her view should look like, or whether certain kinds of animals are acceptable or whatever it is. And if you can help her see those things a little differently, she might realize that she doesn't need to yank you guys out of this house again, in order to be happy. Because the reality is if this mom is looking for reasons to be unhappy, she'll find them wherever she goes.

[00:41:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. Today, it's goats. The next place, that'll be the way the neighbor's parked their car or the sound of their fountain or the dead squirrel in their mailbox or whatever it is. I'm with, Gabe. Try to give your mom a new angle here. 

[00:41:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Details, right? 

[00:41:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Come on. Minor annoyances. The other thing I'll say, and this might not make you feel better immediately, but I hope it gives you a little bit of perspective. There's an upside to moving around so much. I have friends who grew up the way you did always moving around and yeah, they said it was hard, but it also became a real advantage later in life. They aren't afraid of new challenges. They're great at making friends quickly. They can talk to people from all walks of life, living in all different parts of the world.

[00:41:41] So there's definitely a silver lining here. All this moving around, yeah, it's chaotic. It's mildly traumatizing, but it's also eye-opening, stimulating, it's character building. So if you can't get your parents to settle down, try to remember that you're also getting a view of the country that very few people have, and that'll become an asset to you one day. I promise you that. Also, you're 16, you're two years away from being a grown-ass adult. So maybe going to college, deciding what you want your life to look like. When things get hard, try to remember that too, that very soon you'll be able to live wherever you want to live, and you can stay there as long or as little as you want. So hang in there, bud. We're sending you good thoughts. 

[00:42:24] All right, next up. 

[00:42:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, my grandmother has always been verbally and physically abusive to my mom. Despite them being affluent, she treated my mom like a maid. For example, she'd have her do the house chores and leave my mom behind to take care of the house while she took her other kids on trips to Europe. 30 years ago, my grandpa died and left my mom a lot of money, as well as a share in the mansion that her mom and siblings still live in. For 30 years now, the mom and the siblings refuse to give my mom her money. My mom experienced a lot of financial hardship in her life and they never thought of allowing her to have what's hers. The laws on my mom's side, of course, but every time my mom brings up selling her share, my grandma fakes a heart attack and goes to the ER, claiming that she's dying. My mom is in pain, but she says she doesn't want to be the one who kills her mom. 

[00:43:16] Wow. 

[00:43:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

[00:43:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is next-level manipulation. 

[00:43:19] Jordan Harbinger: Ridiculous. 

[00:43:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: On the other hand, nine years ago, we went through a pretty tough time and we stayed in the mansion. They crammed the five of us, including my mom and dad into a single bedroom that barely fit a twin bed. My grandma would intentionally pick fights with my mother over the silliest things. She even attacked her physically. And when my brother stepped in to protect my mom, she kicked him out of the house. She would see me studying and say things like, "I don't think you're working hard enough. When I was your age, I would be doing this and that." She loved my dad when he had money and used to bring her gifts. But the minute we had less money, she called them a failure, just because he was switching jobs. Now, that we're doing better, she's trying to reach out. My mom tells me that I should talk to her often holding the phone to my ear and forcing me to, saying that she's an old lady and that I should just show her love. It grosses me out when my grandma says she misses us and she loves me a lot because I, frankly, don't believe her. I feel guilty for not wanting to talk to her because she's very old and developing dementia, but I just can't bring myself to text or talk to her. Is it okay to cut my grandmother off? Or should I do what my mom is asking me and rekindle a relationship with her? Signed, Not a Fan-na of This Terrible Nana. 

[00:44:29] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Some family, huh, Gabe. It sounds to me like this girl and her mom are like the black sheep of this family, which is actually a good thing, right? Because the family is terrible from the sound of it. It's like a huge compliment. 

[00:44:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. 

[00:44:42] Jordan Harbinger: For whatever reason, this family treats them like actual garbage and is just actively denying them their fair share of the estate. Okay. Super shady in addition to being very hurtful. So, let me start by saying that if your grandmother treats you like this, I don't think you owe her very much at all. She, along with the rest of your family, has denied you guys, your legal right to family property. She's manipulated your mom into not standing up for what's hers. That faking a heart attack, move, that is bananas. That's like a scene from Arrested Development or something. Unbelievable. And this woman— 

[00:45:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. 

[00:45:16] Jordan Harbinger: —only seems to value you guys when there's money involved, when it suits her. So I get why you feel gross when she says, "Oh, I love you. I miss you." It probably angers you that your mom is still playing nice. This whole thing sounds like a ridiculous charade, highly inauthentic, unfair, and wrapped up with decades of emotional and financial neglect/outright abuse. It's awful.

[00:45:39] But here's the thing you have your experience of your grandma and your mom has her experience of her mother and for reasons that are probably very complex, she still wants to play along here to some degree. And that's hard to watch your mom still show her mother love and to be forced to show your love after everything she's done, you feel angry, you feel protective of your mom. You want to be truthful, but you also feel a little guilty for ignoring this old lady who won't be here much longer. It's a confusing place to be. 

[00:46:09] Gabe, cynically, I wonder if the mom is co-opting the daughter and to keeping grandma happy because she feels she needs to stay on her good side in order to get her fair share of the estate. Again, super gross that the money's wrapped up in the family dynamics, but it's certainly understandable. And I'm not trying to throw shade on the mom. It's just one thing that might be happening. 

[00:46:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I think you're onto something, but I would be willing to bet that there's also some deeper stuff going on with mom because no matter how poorly a parent treats you, I think there's always some part of you that wants their love, that wants their approval. It goes against every impulse you have as a child to tell your own mother to just eff off, no matter how bad she is, even if you know that you're right because you feel guilty and you don't want to hurt an old demented lady. And maybe you worry about how you're going to feel about all of this when she's gone and all that. I mean, there's just so much like decades and decades of family stuff wrapped up in this whole dynamic. 

[00:47:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Point is your mom is going to go through her own complicated process with her mom right now. And you'll never fully understand what it's like for your mom, but you could ask her. You could invite her to talk about it, help her unpack her conflicts around how she relates to her mother. And if you do, maybe you can help her see how hard it is for you to watch her play along with her BS, after everything she did to you guys. And that when she shoves the phone in your face and forces you to talk to her, it makes you feel gross. It makes you feel like you're betraying your own feelings, and also your mom. Maybe your mom will start to appreciate the position she's putting you in.

[00:47:40] It's also possible that she'll be able to identify some of her own feelings about her mother, the ones that maybe feel too dangerous for her to acknowledge when she sees them in you. And then hopefully, you guys can decide together how to deal with grandma. I don't think there's one right way to handle this. It's more about handling it in a way that feels as truthful and as peaceful as possible. 

[00:48:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So is it okay to cut your grandmother off? Yes, it's okay. It's certainly an option. Is it the best option? I'm not sure. I think it's probably more useful to decide for yourself how you feel about this woman. What you expect of her, how you want to behave toward her? I think that's more important than deciding that you'll absolutely never speak with her again. Now, if you guys were still living with your family and your grandmother was abusing you and your mother constantly, and being around the family was super damaging, then I would probably say, yeah, get out of there. Hopefully, get on your feet and get your own place as soon as possible. And probably don't have much or any contact with these people anymore. 

[00:48:44] But in your case, given where you guys are right now, and I'm talking about you now, not your mom, the more important thing is developing that inner boundary of this is what I will and won't put up with from grandma. This is how I do and do not feel about her. When I say things to her on the phone, this is what I mean by them. And that means that you might have some very minimal contact with this woman, maybe a phone call here and there, or something like that, doing your basic duty as a granddaughter. But with that inner boundary in place, you might not feel quite as exposed and you might not feel quite as inauthentic when you do it. And you probably won't feel as guilty for not being this woman's best friend. 

[00:49:23] As far as the family estate stuff, though, if your mom is really being denied, her fair share of the money her father left her, then I would encourage your mom to talk to an attorney. She doesn't have to let her family bully her into not getting what is rightfully and legally hers. But if she does push back with an attorney, just be prepared for a ton of emotional manipulation, that's going to come from her family, especially if it means that they might have access to less money as a result. Just based on the facts here, I'm guessing, Jordan, that that's going to be a fight in this family, and it's almost certainly going to get pretty messed up.

[00:49:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. With this family, it is definitely going to get messy, but look, your mom can't just roll over here. That is not right. I have a strong sense of justice as y'all know from the show, but I'm sure that it's scary to stand up to her mom and siblings, but I also think it might be empowering for her. 

[00:50:14] So that's our take this isn't an easy situation. There's no clean way through this, no matter what you do, someone's going to be unhappy, either your grandmother, your mother or you. So your job is to balance those interests while still being true to your own needs. And if it's any consolation given your grandmother's state, you might not be stuck in this dynamic much longer. I know it's a little cold. As hard as it is, this is also an amazing lesson in how not to live your life. Sometimes the best thing we can do in any painful situation like this is, go, "Yeah, I'm not doing this crap to my kids. I am not passing this dysfunction onto my family." And that's one way to find some meaning in the pain that. My mom did a lot of that. Because you can't change your grandmother. You can't give your mother a different childhood. You can't change the past, but you can learn from what you're seeing, which is always kind of a silver lining here. So hang in there. I hope you guys get through this okay. And I'm sending you and your mom, a hug from California. 

[00:51:17] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listen. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Bill von Hippel on evolutionary psychology and, of course, Yuriy in Ukraine. 

[00:51:27] And if you want to know how I managed to get all these amazing folks for the show, it's always about my network and I'm teaching you how to build your own network using the same software, systems, and tiny habits that I use. It's our Six-Minute Networking course, and the course is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. It's crucial for business and frankly, for personal relationships. You hear me talk about it all the time on the show, jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:51:56] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And you can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:52:12] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own, and yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. 

[00:52:30] Haesue Jo's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Haesue's feedback is in response to a written question, and therefore there are likely other unknown considerations given the limited context. Also, just because you might hear something on the show, that sounds similar to what you're experiencing beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses if that's important to you. If you or your partner are in crisis and uncertain of whether you can maintain safety through shifts with alters or even outside of that issue, reach out for support, crisis hotlines, local authorities. Have a safety plan and that can be done with a therapist as well. 

[00:53:17] Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[00:53:34] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. 

[00:53:41] You're in Somalia trying to track down pirate gangs, and I'd love to kind of hear what this felt like. 

[00:53:47] Michael Scott Moore: We went with the big security team and we paid the security team a lot of money. And it was this one portion of a clan in Central Somalia that was supposed to protect us. 

[00:53:58] Jordan Harbinger: So how did they get yet? 

[00:54:00] Michael Scott Moore: My partner Ashwin flew off to Mogadishu. I drove him to the airport and then we saw him off. He got on the plane safely. And then on the way back from the airport, back into town towards our hotel, there was actually a truck waiting for us. It was a truck with a cannon welded in the back. These are very common trucks. They are called technicals. At first, we thought it was there to watch over us or protect us or something, but actually, it stopped our car and 12 gunmen from the flatbed came over to my side of the car. And they actually fired in the air and then opened the door and tore me out of the car. They're waiting for me. And they were probably waiting or hoping for both of us. And I think they were a little bit disappointed that there was only one journalist. 

[00:54:39] They beat me, they broke my glasses and I was wearing glasses at the time and they had another car waiting and they bundled me into it. And off, we drove into the bush for about three hours, something like that, hard to keep track of time. But at some point, we stopped. They blindfolded me. And they took me a few steps over to a mattress. So there was a mattress waiting for me in the middle of nowhere. There were other people there, other guards and other hostages, and I sat down for the next two years and eight months. I was a hostage.

[00:55:09] Jordan Harbinger: For more on life and captivity under the thumb of Somali pirates and how he made it out, check out episode 115 with Michael Scott Moore here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:55:21] This episode is sponsored in part by My First Million podcast. If you're the type of person who's always thinking about new business ideas or wondering what your next side hustle is going to be, I suggest the My First Million. These guys are great. I've known Sam Parr, one of the hosts for a long time. Him and Shaan Puri, they've each built eight-figure businesses and sold them to HubSpot and Amazon, so not too shabby. Each week they brainstorm ideas that you can start tomorrow. They can be side hustles that'll make you a few grand or big billion-dollar grandiose ideas. And there's a lot of interesting episodes. Like how Raul Paul 10X-ed his money with cryptocurrency. That's all the rage right now. How a friend of mine, John Lee Dumas saved a million dollars in taxes by moving to Puerto Rico. They also chat with founders, celebrities, and billionaires, and get them to open up about business ideas that they have never shared before. Search for My First Million, that's My First Million on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.