635: Joe Barone | Living in Dread Between the Mob and the Feds Part Two

635: Joe Barone | Living in Dread Between the Mob and the Feds Part Two

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[00:00:09] Joe Barone: The only thing that they have a hard time of is a conspiracy. They said to the prosecutor, "You couldn't find him guilty on the charges, you're going to find him guilty on conspiracy. Give me a break." That's why they say you could indict a ham sandwich. That's how stupid to conspiracy war is.

[00:00:22] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with scientists and entrepreneurs, spies and psychologists, even the occasional former cult member, drug trafficker, or neuroscientist. And each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical.

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[00:01:14] Today, back with part two of Joe Barone, mafioso-turned FBI informant for 18 years. Go back and listen to part one if you haven't yet. Part one was fascinating. Part two is a continuation of the conversation. Without further ado, here's part two with Joe Barone.

[00:01:31] Okay. So what if you just don't have the money then what? I mean, they can't be mad if you don't have $20,000 under your freaking mattress, right? 

[00:01:39] Joe Barone: Then they always think you're lying to them. 

[00:01:40] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, they think you're lying, okay. 

[00:01:42] Joe Barone: And I'm going to tell you about the test part now about the 20,000. 

[00:01:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:01:45] Joe Barone: It wasn't so much that I gave him the 20,000 when I got the money back, I think all they did was change the rubber bands on the money. I think it was the same money. 

[00:01:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, they just didn't even need it. 

[00:01:54] Joe Barone: Nope. 

[00:01:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:01:55] Joe Barone: Well, come on. These guys are getting money, all kinds of hand and foot. They don't need my 20,000. I know it was a test, but I had no choice. I had to pass it. 

[00:02:03] Jordan Harbinger: What's the test? Will he give us the money? Is that the test just? 

[00:02:06] Joe Barone: Yup. 

[00:02:06] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:02:07] Joe Barone: Yup. 

[00:02:07] Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe they know you have it somewhere. And so if you say I don't have it, then you're lying. 

[00:02:11] Joe Barone: When you go to kill somebody, there's always somebody with you. Because if you don't kill the guy, they know you're not serious. If you kill somebody, your commitment is solid now with them. 

[00:02:19] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, they know you committed a crime. Yeah. 

[00:02:21] Joe Barone: That's right. So if I give him the money, if I'm beating somebody up for them — like we went to a bar once, me and the captain and one of the other guys which is fooling around and tried to grab a little bit while I jumped on the other guy and I grabbed them. They say, "Ooh." The captain started laughing, you know, and he said, "You see, you can't touch me." You know what I mean? And that shows that you're in. 

[00:02:40] Matter of fact, we went to Sue's Rendezvous. It was a bar in Mount Vernon, a strip bar. 

[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like a strip bar, definitely sounds like a strip bar. 

[00:02:48] Joe Barone: So all the guys, we met some of other guys there and stuff like that. So now the captain goes to the bathroom and I looked for a second round and I saw nobody go up to go with him to the men's room. Well, I went to the men's room after him. 

[00:03:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:03:02] Joe Barone: Because that's what you're supposed to do. You're never supposed to let the captain walk by himself. 

[00:03:06] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. Too dangerous for him. 

[00:03:07] Joe Barone: So little things like that, he knew I was close to him and he knew I was with him. 

[00:03:12] Jordan Harbinger: I read these — this is from your documents as well. Like Lucchese family associate, Bruno Facciola was executed in August 1990 with a dead canary stuffed in his mouth as a sign that he was an informer and a warning to other mobsters. So that would be on my mind, like every day. 

[00:03:27] Joe Barone: Right. 

[00:03:27] Jordan Harbinger: I'd be listening for canaries. And like, "You got a bird here. What do you need that for?"

[00:03:32] Joe Barone: Yeah, exactly. Usually, the canaries are probably dead before they got you. You know what I mean? 

[00:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. Yeah. Otherwise, it'd be flying around the car. Yeah. 

[00:03:38] Joe Barone: Exactly. But yeah, they have their own little tricks to show you who's doing this. It was like when they killed Willie Boy Johnson. I don't know if you ever heard of him.

[00:03:47] Jordan Harbinger: No. 

[00:03:48] Joe Barone: Well, Willie Boy Johnson was very close to, I think he was a childhood friend of John Gotti. Later on, he became an informant and he said to the prosecutor, AUSA, the Assistant US Attorney, "That I'll give you information," about John, "but I'll never testify against him." They want him to testify against him and he said, no. Well, what did the US attorney did? They put it out that he was a snitch. 

[00:04:09] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man. 

[00:04:10] Joe Barone: Now, if you remember, Willie Boy Johnson was found and shot — I don't know how many, multiple times. They killed him, of course, but they outed him as a snitch. They actually had him killed because he wouldn't cooperate with them anymore.

[00:04:22] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So the FBI played him and then played the mob into killing him. It's almost like the FBI is like another crime family at that point. 

[00:04:30] Joe Barone: Well, the FBI are a real crime family. It was almost like saying I was an informant on the mob, but now it's like I'm an FBI whistleblower. Because you see, I did work for the mob and I did work for the FBI. And to be honest with you, I would rather have worked and stayed with the mafia because at least I would have been killed. I wouldn't have had everything taken away from me, my livelihood, my status, and my community. Family members don't talk to me. I always have to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life.

[00:04:59] Maybe there's no real hit against me, like Sammy "The Bull." People wanted to kill him. But if somebody wants to come out of the woodwork and say, "Hey, isn't that Joe Barone. Wait, I saw him." And then, they want to make a name for themselves, so they'll shoot me. 

[00:05:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:05:12] Joe Barone: There's a certain level of betrayal that you don't go beyond. It's not like my girlfriend went around my best friend. Okay, it hurts but, you know, eventually one day, I'll get over it. I can live with it. This, here, I have to live with it for the rest of my entire life, you know? 

[00:05:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, it makes sense. I mean, look, it reminds me, the late-night meetup that you mentioned earlier. It sounds like — I assume you've seen Donnie Brasco, right? Where Al Pachino, he gets the call, his wife comes out of the shower and he goes, "I got to go meet somebody. I got to go see." "Oh, so late?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, no problem. You know, you're so beautiful. I'll see you later." And then after she goes back in the bathroom to dry her hair or whatever, he takes off his watch, he takes off his ring, he takes out his lighter, he takes out his wallet. And he puts it all in a drawer that he leaves open for her — we'll let the scene in the show notes because it's like an iconic scene from the movie. 

[00:05:56] Joe Barone: Yup. 

[00:05:56] Jordan Harbinger: And Donnie Brasco who's I think played by Johnny Depp or whatever, right? In the movie, he was an informant for six years. You were an informant for 18 years. So you had three times more than Donnie Brasco. 

[00:06:06] Joe Barone: Yes. 

[00:06:07] Jordan Harbinger: I think you did a lot more damage to the La Cosa Nostra to the mafia than he did, probably, too. 

[00:06:11] Joe Barone: Probably to some degree, yes. And don't forget too, I always kept a certain amount of distance. Look, the FBI had actually given me permission to kill a wise guy.

[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: Really? I didn't even know they could do that. 

[00:06:22] Joe Barone: Yeah. They don't just go, "Okay, listen, Joe killed this guy because we don't like them or kill them because—" whatever. 

[00:06:28] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:06:28] Joe Barone: I had gotten a contract to kill a guy in a mafia. And the reason why, of course, I killed him is because he liked me or whatever. 

[00:06:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:06:35] Joe Barone: And he would've got together with me and that kind of thing. Well, of course, I informed my handler at the time, Vincent Presutti. I said to him, "What am I going to do?" He said, "Look, Joe," this is how they tell you to kill them without telling you to kill them, "You got to do what you got to do to protect yourself, but just make sure after it's done, you call me and tell me right away. So this way we could protect you." 

[00:06:55] Jordan Harbinger: How are they going —? "By the way, I just killed someone." "Oh, thanks for letting me know. I'll file the appropriate paperwork." What? 

[00:07:00] Joe Barone: Yeah, exactly. This is how they do it, but essentially not only once but twice. They gave it to me, once, in front of another FBI agent. The first time we were alone, him and I sitting in a diner. And I said to myself, "Thank god the guy got arrested before it came to fruition." You know, a meeting that I had to go kill him. 

[00:07:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding. That would've put you between a rock and a hard place. It is interesting. And in the FBI docs, there's all this, it's kind of a fun list, right? So you're allowed to engage in what they call otherwise illegal activity, which it's like, no, it's still illegal. It's definitely that. They're not changing the fact that it's illegal. 

[00:07:34] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:07:34] Jordan Harbinger: But they're giving you like a judge is kind of like, "All right, we're not going to prosecute you if you do the following," and it's, "Source has been associated with the Genovese and Bonanno, La Cosa Nostra members in the past. As part of FBI tasking and in a continuing effort to maintain close access to them, redacted, redacted, redacted, and other LCN members, source can be expected to engage in criminal conversations regarding collection of debts, extortion, racketeering, gambling, monopoly of trade, loansharking, attempted murder/conspiracy, money-laundering, income tax violations, the current nature and structure of various La Cosa Nostra families and conspiracy to control and influence legitimate businesses and industry." 

[00:08:12] That's a lot. You had a pretty wide birth. 

[00:08:14] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:08:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a large permission slip there. 

[00:08:17] Joe Barone: Well, at my trial, the agent said, "What was it he allowed to do?" He said, "I would have put more in there if I could have," you know what I mean? 

[00:08:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:08:22] Joe Barone: They just couldn't think of anything else. When I had gotten re-arrested in 2009 and later trying to help the other FBI agents that stole me from the one I was working with, basically, they wanted to give me money to put out in the street. I said, "Okay," I said, "well, what happens when I can't collect it? What am I supposed to do?" And they didn't want to answer me. 

[00:08:41] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Because you already knew the answer to that and they didn't want to make it explicit. Yeah. 

[00:08:45] Joe Barone: Of course. You know, this way they can say, "We didn't tell him to do that."

[00:08:50] Jordan Harbinger: "I didn't tell him to break anybody's legs." "Well, how was he supposed to get the money back?" "I don't know. I'm not a gangster. I'm an FBI agent. Come on." 

[00:08:55] Joe Barone: You think with all this stuff that — who they used to call the Grim Reaper, do you think that he worked with the FBI for all the years he did and all the stuff that he was doing, they turned a blind eye him. They didn't care. 

[00:09:06] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, a lot of people, when I was prepping this, they were like, "Oh, you know, they get paid," and I'm looking at these FBI — you did not do this for the money. The FBI doc show— 

[00:09:13] Joe Barone: No. 

[00:09:13] Jordan Harbinger: —you're getting paid like $2,500 here, $3,500 there. And in order to get that, it was like, "Well, he flew from here to here, redacted— 

[00:09:21] Joe Barone: Yeah.

[00:09:21] Jordan Harbinger: —to go to this event, redacted." You are probably flying from New York to Florida for some birthday party. You're not profiting off of this, barely. 

[00:09:28] Joe Barone: I put out my own money and they just reimbursed me. I found out later on, they were allowed me a hundred thousand dollars a year. 

[00:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:09:36] Joe Barone: So if you think about 18 years, that's 1.8 million.

[00:09:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's not actually — compared to what you could have made loansharking in the mafia or whatever, it's nothing. 

[00:09:44] Joe Barone: One guy testified against the Hells Angels and he got a million dollars. 

[00:09:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:09:48] Joe Barone: He didn't even work for a year. I mean, they gave John Gotti — this guy, his junior and one of his friends who was a stockbroker, they paid him like, I think, 2,500 a week or $5,000 a week for a whole year to get information on John Junior.

[00:10:02] Jordan Harbinger: You know, look, it sounds good when you break it down by week, but then when you think, "Okay, and now I can't live a normal life for the rest of my life." It doesn't really — the value of that starts to drop pretty quickly. 

[00:10:10] Joe Barone: Well, sure. The whole thing is if I had a chunk of money, like the money I was talking about by lawsuit from the government, it's not like I hit the lotto and I could say, "Yeah, I'm going to party now." No, I'm going to live kind of quietly as much seclusive I could get and not be known at least as I can. 

[00:10:25] Jordan Harbinger: No, of course, that totally makes sense. By the way, there's more from the document. I'm going to read a big chunk here. 

[00:10:30] Joe Barone: Go ahead. 

[00:10:31] Jordan Harbinger: It says, "More importantly source after being close to members of three LCN," so La Cosa Nostra aka mafia, so I'll just say LCN, "LCN families is able to report on squabbles between members of that family. Individuals who are likely to cooperate with the government and plans by various LCN members to flee the country, hide assets, make plans to use assert power from within their group and determine various meeting places for individuals. Additional highlights of source is reporting include the conspirators and perpetrators of LCN related murders. The reason for the murders and the purpose of other LCN members leaving areas familiar to them and formerly under their control. Source also identified members of loansharking operations within the purview of the LCN and induction of new LCN members and the power that each of them has within the ranks of their particular LCN families and/or territories. Source was successful in accomplishing this and relating set information, covering portions of the Bonanno, Genovese, and Lucchese LCN. More specific reporting pursuant to this informant is attached to this electronic communication." So they write somewhat formally, but then they don't in the second half of the document— 

[00:11:32] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:11:32] Jordan Harbinger: Which is really funny, like two different writers. So they basically outline all this illegal stuff you're allowed to do. And I have this checklist here that I won't read, but there's all these things where it looks like you initial this, or maybe the FBI agent initial. It's like, "The authorization is limited to 90 days. Here's the conduct on the list I read that you were able to do," but then it says, "Under no circumstances may you participate in an act of violence." 

[00:11:53] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:11:54] Jordan Harbinger: Like participated in an act that obstruct justice, et cetera, et cetera. It's ridiculous, kind of. 

[00:11:59] Joe Barone: This is the funny thing. When I was at my trial, so they said, well, I had a sign off every 30 days or 90 days or whatever, they would bring the paper to me. So after the 90 days was up, if I didn't get in touch with the guy before the 90 days, was I supposed to stop hanging around the gangsters and not to talk to anybody, tell him I went away for a few days.

[00:12:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That doesn't make sense. 

[00:12:18] Joe Barone: I cannot talk to you no more. Yeah, they didn't care. But they cared when I went to trial, of course. 

[00:12:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:12:23] Joe Barone: It was important. You know what I mean? 

[00:12:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's like a technical hangup. That's like a trap for you almost. 

[00:12:29] Joe Barone: It's almost like what you see in the Devil's Advocate that movie with Al Pacino when he says, you know, "It was the goof of all times. Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste." How were you supposed to do things half-ass? You can't. It's impossible. So if we're fighting in the club and my two guys are fighting, that I went over there and somebody is going to jump on their back, I'm supposed to just stand there and watch, I have to jump in and fight with them.

[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:12:51] Joe Barone: You know what I'm saying? Even if I wasn't in a fight, I would have to do something. 

[00:12:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's one of the little initials here. It says, "If the CI, the confidential informant, are asked to participate in any such prohibited conduct or if CI learns of plans to engage in such conduct, CI must immediately report the matter to handling agent. Participating in this conduct could subject CI to full criminal prosecutions."

[00:13:13] It doesn't make any sense, right? "Hey, we're going to go right now. You better get here right now." "What are we doing?" "Oh, we're going to go kill so-and-so." "Hold on. I got to make a quick phone call." Never going to happen. 

[00:13:22] Joe Barone: It's almost like the casinos. You got a chance to win billions of dollars, but those machines are all rigged against you. 

[00:13:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:13:28] Joe Barone: It's a fluke if you win. 

[00:13:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:13:30] Joe Barone: So it's the same thing here. They have everything lined up for them, so they always can abolish themselves. It's almost like they give themselves extra immunity. They're like, they really need it. 

[00:13:39] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. It can't look like they encouraged criminal conduct. Otherwise, it's entrapment.

[00:13:43] Joe Barone: Correct. 

[00:13:43] Jordan Harbinger: They have to let you do it while saying, "Well, we never told him." Like you said before, "We never told him to go beat that guy up. He just did it." "Well, I called you after." "You called me after. I couldn't do anything. It was afterwards," right? It's like all— 

[00:13:54] Joe Barone: Exactly. 

[00:13:55] Jordan Harbinger: It's all that. If they do say, "Yeah, we're going to go down to that pizza place. He's making a bunch of money. We got to get our piece." Do you then have to basically call your FBI handler and go, "Okay, the plan is we're going to comet pizza and we're going to get a chunk of his revenues and I'm going to record the whole conversation? Is that okay?" 

[00:14:11] Joe Barone: Yeah, that's — it'll end of a war wire either, although— 

[00:14:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, you didn't know, okay. 

[00:14:15] Joe Barone: No. I never had.

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: Too dangerous, I guess, probably too. 

[00:14:18] Joe Barone: It was definitely that. And also my memory was really sharp right on. I never gave them any information that was wrong, ever. In other words, we talked about it in the afternoon and we're going to hit them up tomorrow or that night. And I went home first, of course. Then I would call up the guy, Vinny, my handler and say, "Listen, we've got a problem. We're going to go down there. I don't know what I'm going to have to do, but this is what's up." 

[00:14:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:14:39] Joe Barone: And that would be it, I'd tell. 

[00:14:40] Jordan Harbinger: And then that's enough where he's like, "All right. Talk to me tomorrow after you're done.

[00:14:43] Joe Barone: That's it. What could he do? 

[00:14:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I suppose. He can't tell you not to do it because you can't call the boss and go, "You know what? I'm not feeling this one." 

[00:14:50] Joe Barone: Well, here it is, a spur of the moment, I didn't know what happened. I got called by the captain and you know, my skipper at that time, another wise guy, and I'm in the backseat. Well, this guy's father got smacked by somebody in the streets. So guys smacked his father. We got in the car and we're waiting for the guy at his house to come home. They had to lighter fluid and they had to match, they wanted me to hold them. They're going to put lighter fluid and they're going to light him on fire. Thank god, the guy never showed up. 

[00:15:12] Jordan Harbinger: They will light the guy on fire. Holy smokes. 

[00:15:15] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:15:15] Jordan Harbinger: No pun intended. 

[00:15:17] Joe Barone: Yeah. I just got that. Thanks, Jordan. 

[00:15:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:15:20] Joe Barone: But yeah, that's the truth. 

[00:15:22] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. 

[00:15:22] Joe Barone: Thank god, the guy never showed up. 

[00:15:23] Jordan Harbinger: So you're lucky. He never showed — yeah, because you would have had a light, someone, on fire. Oh my god, how horrible is that? That's horrible. 

[00:15:29] Joe Barone: Yeah. Yeah. The guy had the lighter fluid there. They don't want you to know, but they want the whole town to know that this is what happens if anybody touches my family. 

[00:15:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So they got to make a spectacle of the whole thing. 

[00:15:38] Joe Barone: Correct. 

[00:15:39] Jordan Harbinger: When it says infiltration of La Cosa Nostra, LCN into legitimate businesses, of course, they're talking about like union rackets and stuff like that. Are there any sort of really famous businesses or name brands that the mafia has infiltrated that people might be like, "Wow, really? In that business?" 

[00:15:55] Joe Barone: What do you call it? The Gambino family, I believe, they had Frank Perdue or I think it was, I don't know if it was the Gambino family. They had that Perdue chicken— 

[00:16:03] Jordan Harbinger: Oh okay. 

[00:16:03] Joe Barone: Back in those days, yeah. But yeah, there's probably some famous ones that I don't know about. If they can get their hands in there, somehow they would. Like the stock market, a lot of them are very involved in that stuff too. 

[00:16:15] Jordan Harbinger: Sure, insider trading. 

[00:16:16] Joe Barone: Car dealerships. They're involved in car dealerships. They own a piece of it. 

[00:16:20] Jordan Harbinger: Huh? Yeah. I guess that makes sense. Small businesses are probably easier. You can't have mafia engage involvement in Procter & Gamble. It's like too big of an organization. 

[00:16:29] Joe Barone: You know, sometimes it's like that. You know, what it is, is they have to justify the million-dollar home they're living in, where they get the money. They have to show something. 

[00:16:38] Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah. I mean, that's the age-old story of like, "Oh yeah, I'm an import-export business or waste disposal." And it's like their laundering money. And it's like, "Oh wow, there's a lot of money in recycling old televisions suddenly." Yeah, okay. 

[00:16:50] Joe Barone: Right. They used to buy the Laundromats because it was a cash business. 

[00:16:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:16:54] Joe Barone: And then you get the guy out there, clock in how many people go in for six months or a year and then say, "Well, if you only had these many people, how'd you make this money?" "Well, what's wrong with that? He couldn't do his laundry twice?"

[00:17:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. That's right. Well, when he went in there, he spent $400 doing his laundry and he had a lot of dirty whites.

[00:17:11] Joe Barone: Yeah. Exactly. 

[00:17:12] Jordan Harbinger: "Well, did you weigh the laundry when he went in, officer." "No, I didn't do that." 

[00:17:16] Joe Barone: Exactly. 

[00:17:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:17:17] Joe Barone: So they have to justify it, you know? 

[00:17:22] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Joe Barone. We'll be right back. 

[00:17:27] This episode is sponsored in part by Bambee. You run a small business, but who's running your HR? If the answer is, "Eeh, I'll figure it out myself," or honestly, no one, remember that one employee complaint can devastate your business, but HR is not just about avoiding risk. As a business leader, you should try to do right by the people that you employ. That's why you need Bambee. Bambee is an HR platform built for businesses like yours. So you can automate the most important HR practices and get your own dedicated HR manager. First, Bambee's HR autopilot automates your core policies, workplace training, and employee feedback. Then your dedicated HR manager will help you navigate the more complex parts of HR and guide you to compliance available by phone, email, or real-time chat. An in-house HR manager can cost like 80 grand a year but with Bambee, your dedicated HR manager starts at $99 a month. No hidden fees. Cancel any time. Bambee has thousands of five-star reviews on trust pilot. You run your business, let Bambee run your HR. 

[00:18:23] Jen Harbinger: Go to bambee.com/jordan right now to get your free HR audit, spelled B-A-M-B-E-E.com/jordan, bambee.com/jordan.

[00:18:33] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Squarespace. People spend most of their time these days on the Internet buying products and using services. If you don't own a website, you might be losing a lot of potential customers online and, of course, missing the key to growing your business many fold. So what is stopping you from building yours? I get it. It can be complicated. It looks like a lot of work, probably really expensive. You don't have any idea where to start? Don't be a disgrace, try Squarespace. You don't have to know the first thing about tech or the intricacies of web design, because Squarespace covers all that. You can focus on the things that are important to you like selling. Squarespace has all the tools you need to get your online business off the ground. You can even generate revenue through gated members-only content, manager members, send email communication, leverage audience insights, all in one easy to use. Add online booking and scheduling, connect your social media accounts to your website, create email campaigns, all with Squarespace's tools. And these examples don't even scratch the surface of what you can do on Squarespace. Give it a try for free at squarespace.com/jordan. That's squarespace.com/jordan. Use code JORDAN to save 10 percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. 

[00:19:41] If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it's because of my network. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Now, the course is about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring others to develop a personal and professional relationship with you. It'll make you a better networker, a better connector, and a better thinker. That's all at jordanharbinger.com/course. And by the way, most of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. 

[00:20:13] Now, back to Joe Barone. 

[00:20:16] I see also that you prevented a murder of a US attorney and a sitting judge, which that is brazen. So they were going to murder a prosecutor and a judge. 

[00:20:24] Joe Barone: Oh without a doubt. 

[00:20:25] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god. 

[00:20:26] Joe Barone: They were as good as dead. Now, the judge, his name was Judge Garaufis and I was with him in his court. I've actually seen him when I was in the hole doing my time. I actually wrote him a letter letting them know that I was the guy who was directly responsible for saving his life. 

[00:20:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:20:39] Joe Barone: Because I knew the guy that was going to kill him. Even though he said in the papers, I heard that he wasn't scared. Everybody says that you're not scared until the guy comes there and get you and you're scared then. 

[00:20:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:20:48] Joe Barone: But I like the judge, he was a good guy, and I knew when they were going to kill him, I knew the guy that was going to kill him, especially the other guy was the prosecutor for that case to as well. And I gave them the information. They stopped it. 

[00:21:00] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. How do you stop it? You just tell them to be extra careful or you go after the guy that's going to do it somehow and put them in — or you would ask them for some? 

[00:21:07] Joe Barone: Well, the guy that was actually going to do it was — this goes back to some of the stuff you were reading. He was going to go and leave to Italy. He was in hiding and he was going to go leave to Italy right after he killed him. So I told them about the guy who was going to do it. I told them pretty much everything I knew. And it happened to be that the guy's own cousin was actually cooperating too. 

[00:21:25] Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow. 

[00:21:25] Joe Barone: I don't even know that. I was working with him and I never knew he was cooperating too. Because they knew exactly where he was hiding, so he went to him, they got him and they arrested him before he can kill everybody. 

[00:21:36] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. All right. I mean, there's so much here. The documents were quite fascinating, a little repetitive in parts, but it wasn't meant to be a novel. 

[00:21:43] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:21:43] Jordan Harbinger: So how did it all come crashing down? How did this all end up? You know, you are an informant. They love you. The documents are like, "He's the best informant we've ever had and the payments should reflect that." And then suddenly they're like, "Now you're under arrest." What the hell? 

[00:21:55] Joe Barone: So what happened was the guy that I worked with 18 years, of course, he retired after 20 years. So his whole career pretty much was built on things that we did. So we had a nice beer, a couple slices of pizza and stuff, and he gave me to another guy. Mike Trombetta was another agent that I was going to be working with. I should have actually walked away. I didn't know. I thought I couldn't. I should have now knowing what I know now.

[00:22:19] So that was in, I think, maybe October, November, somewhere around that time. But three months after he retired, they arrested me and saying that there was a murder-for-hire plot, which was not going to happen. It might've been even six weeks after he retired instead of three months— 

[00:22:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow. 

[00:22:35] Joe Barone: —when I met him, yeah, so it was like six weeks after he retired. They arrested me saying I was going to kill this guy because there was another informant that I got to hire to kill somebody. He informed on me, which later on, got proven at my trial that it was never going to happen. See, I hung around with a few different people. Some of the people I reported to the FBI that were actual gangsters, this guy wasn't a gangster. He just was like a guy that I would use and keep my street cred up. You know what I mean? 

[00:23:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Joe Barone: I give them money here and there. So he was happy to hang around with me. I gave him a thousand dollars to go look at the job, gave him an address and everything like that. But of course, nothing was going to come of it and nothing did. Like I said, if I was going to get all this kind of money, half a million dollars, I don't need this guy to help me kill him. You know what I mean? 

[00:23:19] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:23:20] Joe Barone: Then later on, that's what they did. They use that as a guise to get me because they knew who I was. They saw my record. A matter of fact at my trial, they said, "Well, what did Mr. Barone do to judge, to Judge [Buchwald]? And he said, "Well, he gave some license plates and everything." They said, "Is that his file?" The file was this thick. 

[00:23:36] Jordan Harbinger: So it's like a foot thick. Yeah. 

[00:23:38] Joe Barone: Yeah. So they're like, they're trying to say, That's a lot of license ." You know what I mean? In 18 years? Anyway, PS, they only did that so that they could steal me from Mike Trombetta to go with them. That's where the informant shopping comes in. And the only time I ever heard that informant shopping phrase, I think it was in the cover of Time Life magazine. It's where other agents steals you from another agent, because they're more powerful and they want to use you to go with them. But these agents were nothing like the 18 years away, I operated. They came up with sh*t like you hear on TV that nobody would believe. 

[00:24:11] They actually made me make a phone call to a gangster. And he says, I know I'm probably being recorded now and everything like that. I said, "I don't never talk on the phone with them. Now, you want me to talk to them on the phone? Well, you got to prove yourself." I said, "The 18 years that I worked is not proof enough?" And then I asked them this. I said, "I saved the judge's life. Okay. Doesn't that mean anything to you?" And you know what he said, this guy, Agent Gaeta was his name. He went, "Nope," just like that to me. If they really thought that I was a bad guy and I was going to kill somebody or whatever the case, or hire somebody to kill somebody, all the years that I work, you get to tell me those all crimes and murders I solved all the people that got arrested because of information I gave or whatever you don't think they could have said, "We don't want to work with you anymore, Joe. We're going to give you a pass, but if we ever hear anything again, we'll coming down on you with everything."

[00:25:00] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:25:00] Joe Barone: Right? 

[00:25:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:25:01] Joe Barone: Is it worth it? 

[00:25:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:25:03] Joe Barone: I mean, how much can you put on anybody's life? Can I say to you, Jordan, your life's only worth $20 million, $50 million. You can't probably even put a price on your own life. You know what I mean? 

[00:25:11] Jordan Harbinger: I wouldn't try. No. 

[00:25:12] Joe Barone: There's no question . You just answered it. 

[00:25:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's pretty incredible. I mean, they say terminated for unauthorized criminal conduct. That was the murder-for-hire plot. But yeah, some of the things that we're asking you to do in the court documents, they were saying, "Oh, call this high level, random high-level people over the phone and discuss illegal activity," which like, it almost seems like they didn't even think this one through, right? Or it's such a bad plan that either they have no experience and they didn't know what they were doing, or they knew you would say no to that because it's the dumbest thing in the world. If you never talked to somebody over the phone and you never talked to them about illegal activity and one day you're like, "Hey, Jordan." "Boss, what's going on with all that cocaine smuggling we were going to do." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" 

[00:25:55] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:25:55] Jordan Harbinger: "No, remember we were going to smuggle a bunch of cocaine from Mexico to the United States," what did they want me to be like? "Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. Meet me at the docks at midnight. I've got all the cocaine with me." Like it doesn't make any sense. It's so harebrained, that I don't even understand why they would ask you to do that. Like, it almost seems like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. 

[00:26:13] Joe Barone: Well, even when, after I got arrested, I was going for like, I guess, four days, people were actually looking for me.

[00:26:18] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:26:18] Joe Barone: Matter of fact, police went to my house. My friends were there and they asked the police, "What the hell you doing here?" You know what the FBI told me to tell them? Just tell your friends, you went away, you met some girl, you went to Atlantic City and had hung out with her for a few days." I said, "I never do that." 

[00:26:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:26:34] Joe Barone: It's like you hang around if you got a friend for a couple of years, you'll know right away when he's up down feeling good, feeling bad because you know him, you know what I mean? 

[00:26:43] Jordan Harbinger: None of it makes sense. Yeah. 

[00:26:44] Joe Barone: Exactly. You might not be able to say what's wrong, but you'd know something's off. The same thing with me. So now, I asked them, I said, "I never talked to people on the phone." It's all on the transcripts, how he knew I was talking and the feds were monitoring me and that exposed me right there. So they let me out for two weeks and they gave me a piece of paper to show that. They arrested on like a suspicion or whatever. And they wanted me to show us around to people. Like, as if I wasn't cooperating, I said, "You killed my whole reputation, it's dead." 

[00:27:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:27:11] Joe Barone: And then they wanted me to start going to gangsters and stuff, and I was not going to do. I didn't want to go and meet any people no more because I knew what was going to happen. 

[00:27:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They were going to bungle it. 

[00:27:20] Joe Barone: I hired a wise guy, attorney George Santangelo because I still wanted to try to keep a little something going. Well, once I hired him, that's it. They arrested me again because he's a wise guy attorney and they knew I wasn't going to do anything with them anymore. And that was it. They arrested me and that's it. They charged me. 

[00:27:37] Jordan Harbinger: And they throw you in the SHU, so the special housing unit, for 18 months. This is like protective custody, right? 

[00:27:43] Joe Barone: What they did was they exposed me in the papers that I was cooperating. They did that purposely. So that this way I would give the BOP, the bureau of prisons, permission to throw me in the box for my own protection. But that was the torture me. That was to say like, "Hey, you don't go, f*ck you." You know what I mean? You f*cked us, we're going to get you. 

[00:27:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:28:00] Joe Barone: And that's what they did. In the meantime, I was actually in prison 19 months total, 15 months in the box. But in that 15 months, I almost died. They took me to the hospital for like a few days for by heart, but I also contracted MRSA staph. They actually operated on me three times. The first time was no anesthesia. They made me bite on a stick. They cut the big— 

[00:28:22] Jordan Harbinger: What the hell? 

[00:28:23] Joe Barone: They cut big chunks of mass out of me. 

[00:28:25] Jordan Harbinger: What with no—? 

[00:28:26] Joe Barone: In the prison. 

[00:28:27] Jordan Harbinger: What the hell? 

[00:28:27] Joe Barone: In the MDC. 

[00:28:28] Jordan Harbinger: That's insane. That's horrible. That's horrifying even.

[00:28:31] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:28:31] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's like some middle ages sh*t right there. That's crazy. 

[00:28:36] Joe Barone: I got the scars the prove it. They gave me the injections later on like the other two surgeries that they did in MDC. But the anesthesia wore off right away. They still were cutting it out. What are you going to do?

[00:28:47] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god. Oh my god. And we know that this is flimsy because they later give you, the government later filed something called nolle prosequi which means they don't want to, no longer willing to prosecute essentially. It's a flimsy case. 

[00:28:59] Joe Barone: Yeah, they did that after — you see what happen is I'm in the law books now, Joe Barone with my Attorney Jose Muniz, we were in the law books to win an illegal search and seizure, which is almost impossible. If you know anything about the federal system— 

[00:29:13] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:29:14] Joe Barone: It's almost impossible to win an illegal search and seizure. Well, now, I'm in the law books and once I got that and took the wind out of their sails right there, and then once I took the stand, they never thought that I would, but because I had nothing to tell that was wrong or a lie — matter of fact, I actually faced the jury when I took the stand. 

[00:29:33] Jordan Harbinger: Huh? 

[00:29:33] Joe Barone: I didn't look at the prosecutor. I wanted the jury to see the truth in my eyes. That's how I was founded not guilty.

[00:29:40] Jordan Harbinger: Interestingly, Preet Bharara signs this, right? So you know who Preet Bharara is? He's kind of a well-known guy, especially now. 

[00:29:46] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Jordan Harbinger: He's the one who signed your nolle prosequi, I think. 

[00:29:48] Joe Barone: Yeah. And he's more political now. 

[00:29:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:29:50] Joe Barone: Because he knew there was nothing there. Listen, they didn't even have a warrant to arrest me. They called it in. They said, "Listen, we think we want to get them," and half the reason wasn't. The judge even asked them, "Why did you take him in the house and leave him in there so long? Why didn't you take them back to headquarters?" They said they did a protective sweep that they found a gun and this and that. Everything was lies. It's unbelievable how you think that the FBI — and let's face it, I'll tell you a quick story. 

[00:30:13] Jordan Harbinger: Mmhm. 

[00:30:14] Joe Barone: It's very brief. 

[00:30:15] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:30:15] Joe Barone: Most wise guys, when I was younger, they would say, "Hey, you got to see, I went to court on trial. They put somebody up on a stand. I'd never even met them." And I was like, "Get out of here. Really? How can they do this?" and then, you know, you walk away going, "This guy's crazy." 

[00:30:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:30:27] Joe Barone: He must've known him, you know, because you think the wise guy is lying too a little bit. 

[00:30:30] Jordan Harbinger: He's lying, yeah, sure. 

[00:30:31] Joe Barone: But he's not, he's telling the truth. Listen in this country, you are guilty to proven innocent because if I was innocent until proven guilty, why does I still stayed in jail? Why couldn't I go home? You have to prove yourself innocent. Once you get arrested, it's your job to get yourself out of the papers. It's your job to prove yourself that you didn't do nothing wrong. And that's why I took the stand because nobody knows the story better than me. And that's why I said, if the FBI can do this to a guy like me, how come it says the United States of America against Joseph Barone? 

[00:31:01] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:02] Joe Barone: On one guy. 

[00:31:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:31:03] Joe Barone: One guy. 

[00:31:04] Jordan Harbinger: Federal prosecution, man, is extremely scary because they have unlimited resources to prosecute this case and you got to pay for the defense. 

[00:31:10] Joe Barone: And they do not fight fair and they do not fight fair. If they could do this to a guy like me, it's worse than betrayal. I mean, they just ruined my whole entire life, for what? What did I do?

[00:31:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. You're in no man's land now. Right? Because your FBI— 

[00:31:22] Joe Barone: That's right. 

[00:31:23] Jordan Harbinger: —connections like retired, slash, you know, they're not backing you anymore. And then of course, the mob is like, "Wait, you were a snitch for 18 years." 

[00:31:30] Joe Barone: They wouldn't help me. 

[00:31:31] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. 

[00:31:31] Joe Barone: I mean, it's almost like this. I got a lawsuit against one of my lawyers. It's called the lawyers' fund for protective custody, you know, lawyer-client protection. It's a lawyers' fund, they call it. 

[00:31:41] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:31:41] Joe Barone: Well, I've been fighting them since 2012, but they don't want to give me. It's a hundred thousand dollars. That's all it is. Well, here, I even have a note. The judge actually wrote the facts and created a false instrument for filing. That's why I'm doing this case pro se because no lawyer, whatever, stick up for me and say that the judge is wrong. Or, you know, because the judge is actually committing a felony by doing this. He did that, so he could support the ruling that he wanted to give. He didn't want to rule in my favor. He's ruling with them. That's why the courts are corrupt too. 

[00:32:11] It's almost like you have no choice. That's why the conviction rate for the FBI is 95 percent. Basically, I was very surprised when my judge actually asked these people, "What did he do?" And then they showed, like you said, a foot thick of what I did. And she looked at it in camera. She took all my records and looked at it. And then when she came out, the next time I had to go to court, she actually treated me a lot differently because she knew that what I was saying was not untrue. Matter of fact, she winked at me when I won my trial. 

[00:32:38] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. But when she went to bat for you, you know, knowing that what you had done for the government probably.

[00:32:44] Joe Barone: Well, here you go, the AUSA lied about the fact that I helped to save the judge's life. And she pulled them to the sidebar and she was yelling at them in the courtroom. And then he finally had to go to the jury and say, "Okay, Mr. Barone did give information that did help save a federal judge's life." 

[00:33:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, because she probably said, if you don't want to mistrial, you better correct yourself right now because that's— 

[00:33:04] Joe Barone: There you go. 

[00:33:05] Jordan Harbinger: You're going to purge yourself in court. 

[00:33:07] Joe Barone: The only thing that they have a hard time of is a conspiracy. First of all, conspiracy war is really illegal anyway. 

[00:33:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:33:14] Joe Barone: That's number one. That's why a jury can't really say if it was guilty or not guilty, they're hung up on that most of the time. So that's why she even said to the prosecutor, "You couldn't find them guilty on the charges, you're going to find guilty on conspiracy. Give me a break." That's why they say you could indict a ham sandwich. That's how stupid conspiracy war is. 

[00:33:32] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Joe Barone. We'll be right back.

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[00:34:29] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. Progressive helps you get a good rate on car insurance even if it's not with them. They have a comparison tool that puts rates side by side, so you choose a rate and coverage that works for you. So let's say you're interested in lowering your rate on your car insurance, visit progressive.com. Get a quote with all the coverage you want. You'll see Progressive's rate and their tool will provide options from other companies, all lined up and easy to compare. So all you have to do is choose the rate and coverages you like progressive gives you options so you can make the best choice for you. You could be looking forward to saving money in the very near future. More money for say a pair of noise-canceling headphones, an Instapot, more puzzles, whatever brings you joy. Get a quote today at progressive.com. It's just one small step you can do today that can make a big impact on your budget tomorrow. 

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[00:35:20] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to the show. I really appreciate the fact that you are here giving me your attention. I love putting these conversations together for you. I know the codes in the URLs from the advertisers can be kind of confusing pain at times, so we put them all in one. jordanharbinger.com/deals is where you can find them. Please consider supporting those who support us. 

[00:35:39] Now for the rest of my conversation with Joe Barone.

[00:35:44] Look, what are you doing for security these days? You move to an undisclosed location. I remember early, I was like, "Oh, I'll mail you a microphone." And I think it was your friend who was doing the initial interface was like, "Ah, no, we'll just get that ourselves." And I was like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense. You probably don't want to send me an address where to reach you." And then I was like, "Oh, I'll send them to a studio." It's like, "Nah, we're going to just buy the thing you want us to get off Amazon and go from there." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." 

[00:36:09] Joe Barone: Well, the FBI, they know where I am. 

[00:36:11] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:36:11] Joe Barone: I wind up getting a ticket or whatever, and they know where I am and they know where I am. And that's what makes it even more scary because at one time they did offer me the witness protection program. 

[00:36:18] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:36:19] Joe Barone: More than once actually, but would you take the antidote from the same people who gave you the poison? You know what I mean? So I figured, let me take my chances out here. Don't get me wrong, Jordan. I'm not going to tell you I'm the toughest guy you've ever going to meet. I'm not going to— 

[00:36:33] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:36:34] Joe Barone: I can get killed like anybody else and all of that stuff too. And I'm not going to tell you that I'm not afraid or that's not on my mind or that I still don't wake up with nightmares, which I do, but I figured I'm better off taking my own chances. And whatever's in store for me is what God wants anyway. You know what I mean? 

[00:36:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, also when Sammy "The Bull" went into witness protection, he came out a few years later because he was like, "I'm getting old and I can't see my family and I can't do anything. And it's like, what the hell?" And if he can come out and live a normal rest of his life, and there was a lot of hits on him, then in theory, you should be all right too. But yeah, when I go out to dinner with Sammy and other people, it's like, we kind of go to different places and look at the door and everything. He still does all that. "I got to face the door," because same reason as you some 18-year-old idiot is going to be like, "I killed Sammy "The Bull," I'm tough." And they're going to be like, "What the hell? You kill a 74-year-old man, you moron," but that's too late for him. 

[00:37:28] Joe Barone: There's some things that you can't get away from. I'll always face the door. I'll always, you know, I won't fix a flat tire if it's on the side of the street. You know what I mean? 

[00:37:36] Jordan Harbinger: Mmhm. 

[00:37:36] Joe Barone: Because that's when they come, they just drive by, and they shoot you like that. You know what I mean? Even the FBI is still after me. I forgot to tell you this part too, there's a guy down here that I actually talked to on the phone from prison. He's a killer too, but he worked for the FBI as well. Do you realize that they will bug him my phone and his phone. And he still tried to get me on the hook with this guy to do bad things.

[00:37:56] Jordan Harbinger: So entrapment essentially — well, it depends what it was, but I've read the documents. So yeah, yeah. 

[00:38:01] Joe Barone: These people never let you go. You think, like I told you about my great uncle who got shot later on 20 years later. These people will never let me go. If I was to go to court today, if they didn't have this thing called summary judgment, they didn't knock me out of court. I went to trial and I told the people at the jury, let them make up their minds what they want to do with my life. because I'll tell them to shoot, like I'm telling you when I told them at my first trial. They do not want you to be successful. The same reason why lawyers' fund, they called up the prosecutors, all these people, the FBI, because they're all work together with lawyers. They said don't pay that guy. And that's what they're doing. They don't want to give me a hundred thousand dollars. That's all it is. They don't want the money. But to me, it's a lot of money right now. But they do it to get, they all work hand in hand, they're all part of the same system. And to be honest with you, it's all corrupt. You fight your fight until you got nothing left and thank God I'm healthy enough. And I'm still fighting. 

[00:38:56] Jordan Harbinger: So you don't have any like utility bills in your name and phone bills, all that stuff. Pardon me, if you can't answer this, just tell me, but like, what about seeing your family? Do they just meet you somewhere neutral or—? 

[00:39:07] Joe Barone: My family doesn't want to talk to me. No, they were afraid. 

[00:39:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. 

[00:39:11] Joe Barone: Yes, they were afraid. Matter of fact, when I first got pinched, one of my cousins reached out to me on email. I guess you heard the story. And he reached out to me to my then wife on her email. And then his family told him don't talk to him.

[00:39:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:39:25] Joe Barone: He's my second cousin. 

[00:39:25] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Geez. 

[00:39:27] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:39:27] Jordan Harbinger: And do you use like VPN software to mask your Internet addresses and stuff like that on your phone and all that stuff? Or you don't worry about that? 

[00:39:35] Joe Barone: Yeah, only so much I could. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:39:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:39:37] Joe Barone: Certain things I don't, you know, I'm not too tech savvy, I'm just going by only thing I know.

[00:39:43] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I guess if you're not that worried about that particular thing — I'm after this, by the way, I'm just going to be, for anyone listening, I'm going to purge all the records that I have and all those servers that I use to connect to you, just so that your Internet address, your IP address is not saved somewhere cache somewhere.

[00:39:59] Joe Barone: Thank you. 

[00:40:00] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's for your protection and also for mine, because if somebody is like, "We want to see your computer," I'm like, "Hey, I already scrambled all that stuff five minutes after the interview," because I didn't want a knock on my door either. 

[00:40:10] If you had to do this all over again, what would you do differently? You know, would you leave the mob once your father was killed or would you maybe just like go work at the post office, like you said, or would you change? 

[00:40:20] Joe Barone: It's kind of, like in one way, I asked myself a lot of times, because I did save a lot of lives, but is it really my job to save a life? I don't know. You know, maybe I was put there for a reason, maybe I wasn't, but if I thought about it hard, like you're asking me, I would've just took my time and took my chances the way I was living and that was it. If I would have joined the post office, I wouldn't even have been arrested the first time. 

[00:40:42] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, for what? I mean— 

[00:40:44] Joe Barone: I wouldn't have it loanshark money for money and stuff because I ended up at worked really. I mean, the few jobs that I had were nothing but a serious job, and I do call it serious, I think the post office is a good entity. 

[00:40:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's a real career, of course. 

[00:40:57] Joe Barone: Exactly. I would've just did that. I guess, I've been happy and get married, you know, whatever, live a normal life. 

[00:41:04] Jordan Harbinger: You feel like you even had a choice, but to join the mob, given that your dad was in it, when you were born and your mom came from there as well, did you even have a choice? 

[00:41:11] Joe Barone: I kind of had some choice, but you always want to please your father, for some reason, you always want to— 

[00:41:16] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:41:16] Joe Barone: I don't understand it. My mother would tell me if I went to a wedding or something, I got dressed up, I always go to see my mother before I went to the wedding and she'd give me the big smile. "Do I look handsome?" "Oh, you look good." I went there thinking I was better looking than the groom and everybody that was there. If my father would've gave me the recognition that I wanted or seek like everybody else would, so the few things that I did, yeah. But he was disappointed in me too on a lot of things too. You know, you never could really please them, you know? 

[00:41:42] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, look, that makes it makes sense. You're always looking to try and please your parents. Even though you followed him into the life, it still wasn't enough. I mean, it's not like you went and applied, right? You didn't seek this out. You were born into it. 

[00:41:52] Joe Barone: No. 

[00:41:53] Jordan Harbinger: You didn't have much of a say in the matter. 20/20 hindsight, you had to say in the matter, but back then, it's like, "What do you mean you're not going to do this? I'm setting the table for you. Like you got it easy. You don't even have do all the BS to get in. I'm setting you up already." And you know, everyone you knew and loved was connected to organized crime. And I'm highlighting that because a lot of people are going to go, "Aah, so what they're going to kill some mobster guy. He's probably a scumbag. He went and killed people," but it's very different. When you think about the choices that you think you have at a given time. 

[00:42:23] You know, when I do work in prisons, people go, "Man, you know—" These guys, when your father is killed by somebody, when you're eight years old, your mom has four other kids and can't support and sends you to live with a cousin. And the cousin is in a gang and you're eight, nine, and then they kill your cousin. And they said, they're going to come after you. Of course, you get a gun when you're 12. Of course, you may be go and get them first. It's different than a kid who's grows up in the suburbs who's like me with a mom was a teacher and a dad is an auto worker. And then I get into just selling drugs. That's because I'm — I would do that because I was a little sh*t. Not because I had— 

[00:42:54] Joe Barone: Right. 

[00:42:54] Jordan Harbinger: —no other choice, right? Then it's a different set of circumstances. 

[00:42:58] Joe Barone: It's a huge difference. I mean, look, the bottom line is you do what you can when you're in — almost everybody lives in the moment. Nobody's trying to project, like somebody might say, "Oh, what are you going to do in, 10 years from now?" I don't know. Who's thinking 10 years ahead? 

[00:43:12] Jordan Harbinger: Especially young people. 

[00:43:12] Joe Barone: Exactly. If I was smart, I would have invested the money I had and I would have been okay right now. 

[00:43:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:43:17] Joe Barone: I was living day by day and I didn't know if I was going to make it from the next day to the next day.

[00:43:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:43:22] Joe Barone: You never know what's going to happen to you. 

[00:43:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:43:24] Joe Barone: So, you know, it's a little hard. It's nice if you had, well, like some people that are multimillionaires and their family has something aside for them later on. 

[00:43:31] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:43:32] Joe Barone: Oh, look, you got movie stars that are paying for their kids to get educations they never even worked for.

[00:43:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:43:37] Joe Barone: So, I mean, the world is a very small place and not everybody is what they always seem. 

[00:43:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, I bring this up not to excuse criminal behavior, but to sort of illustrate the idea that some people make choices that we would also make if we were in the same set of circumstances. It's just really easy for us to say he was a criminal and he did that — well, okay but why? You know, you always have to zoom out on the timeline to look at the real cause of something. It's usually not as cut and dry as it might seem. 

[00:44:04] Joe Barone: What's the saying? Walk a mile in my shoes first before you're able to judge me. 

[00:44:08] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. 

[00:44:08] Joe Barone: You know what I mean? 

[00:44:09] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. 

[00:44:09] Joe Barone: I don't know what life you had. I've seen some things you didn't. You've been through some things yourself as well. How could I tell you how to grieve for somebody or how long you're supposed to deal with it? It's not about up to me, it's up to the individual. And everybody's different. 

[00:44:24] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You know, like I said, I'm going to take some quick security measures to make sure that your IP address and things like that aren't stored on any of the servers we're using to make the recording. 

[00:44:33] Joe Barone: Thanks. 

[00:44:34] Jordan Harbinger: But, yeah, I appreciate the candor and I appreciate you reaching out. You know, like I said, I thought it was a prank when I first got the email because I was like, "Oh, yeah, some gangster never talked to anybody. He wants to come and talk on The Jordan Harbinger Show first. Like what do you think I am?" But here we are. 

[00:44:48] Joe Barone: I want to say thank you to you too, first of all, and I do have a website, joebarone.io that people can go on to check that out as well. 

[00:44:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. We'll link to that in the show notes. 

[00:44:57] Joe Barone: Okay. That's cool. 

[00:44:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:44:58] Joe Barone: And if you ever need me for anything to, Jordan, don't ever hesitate to get in touch with me or my people or anything. I'll help you out, whatever you need. Questions or something you thought about later on— 

[00:45:08] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:45:08] Joe Barone: Or something else you're doing with somebody else who maybe you want to confirm? 

[00:45:12] Jordan Harbinger: You know that's helpful because sometimes I do get people who say, "Oh, you should have this guy on, he's a gangster." And then I'll ask like Sammy or something and they're like, "I've never heard of this guy, but that doesn't mean he's fake." But then they'll be like, "Wait, he said this was this, and this was this, that doesn't, that's wrong." 

[00:45:26] Joe Barone: That's right. 

[00:45:26] Jordan Harbinger: He would know that he would know that is not right. Like he would know the name of the 116 Street boys if he really lived in that neighborhood, like not everyone's heard of them or something like that.

[00:45:36] Joe Barone: Yeah. 

[00:45:37] Jordan Harbinger: You know? And there's all these things like that. "Oh, I shot him 12 times with my Magnum revolver," and people are like, "A revolver, the whole 12 shots? What are you talking about?" So I'm like, whoops. 

[00:45:47] Joe Barone: Yeah. There's a lot of that. You know, everybody wants a little fame or a little notoriety. You know what I mean? But— 

[00:45:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:45:52] Joe Barone: —everything I've told you today, and even if there's anything else, I could always back up with everything that I have. So it's not a problem. 

[00:45:59] Jordan Harbinger: Well, look, I've seen enough FBI documents that you — there's no way they're fake. I mean, that would be a hell of a lot of work for you.

[00:46:07] Joe Barone: Just get on TV. 

[00:46:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:46:09] Joe Barone: Exactly. 

[00:46:09] Jordan Harbinger: This show is not worth that amount of effort to fake all those FBI documents. I'll tell you that. That's for damn sure. 

[00:46:14] Joe Barone: Exactly. 

[00:46:15] Jordan Harbinger: Hey, I appreciate it, man. 

[00:46:17] Joe Barone: Well, I'm here at your disposal because like I said, you did this for me. It's my way of saying thanks. And if I could help you in any thing in the future, just let me know. 

[00:46:26] Jordan Harbinger: I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before I get into that, Anthony Luciano Raimondi was born into the world of organized crime, spent much of his life as a mob enforcer and played a part in heists and assassinations, allegedly. Here's a preview of my conversation with a former Italian mob enforcer. 

[00:46:44] Anthony Luciano Raimondi: So I'm in the club and I'm putting some of the envelopes together. This guy walks in. I got up and I said, "Excuse me, can I help you?" "Yeah, I want to talk to you." He pulled out a gun. I still got the first scar right over here. This guy beat me so bad. I don't even know how I made it back downtown. I was crawling out of the place. Literally, I was crawling out of the place and I remember him saying, "You come back here. You're just going to have to have a close coffin for you. I'm going to blow you're f*cking head off. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that." 

[00:47:09] PS, my cousin takes me out from the hospital about five, six days later. They told me who did you guys. And I went to see Joey D. We went to the basement, all weapons. His family were gun runners. I mean, if you want the B-52 bomb, hit them. I tell you, they're there in three days. They'll be there at your doorstep. They have bazookas, they had hand grenades. I mean, they had stuff like you never saw. He goes, "Pick out something." 

[00:47:30] I take my cousin's car and I drive to Third Avenue and I parked right in front of the place. There's parking space. I got the gun on my waistband. I got to go in and Dukie, the bartender sees me and he goes, "What are you doing here?" I said, "Don't worry about it. Don't worry about this. I want to talk to him. I figured I would really talk to him." When I walked through, I turned around, I'd seen him, he had his back to me. And he was talking to this girl Karen from school. I'll never forget Karen. The music was down and I hear her tell him, she says, "Anthony is behind you." for whatever, the reason before she even said it, I have the gun in my hand.

[00:48:01] This guy gets up. "What did I tell you? You, dirty motherf*cker. Your mother is going to have a closed coffin. I'm going to blow your f*cking head off." He opened his jacket and I'd seen the gun in his waistband. He puts his hand on it. I just picked up my hand like this and I emptied the whole clip into him. 

[00:48:13] Joe Colombo says, "Give him a drink." He gives me a 7 and 7. He goes, "Look at this kid." He goes, "He just killed somebody and he's sitting there, calm as a cucumber." 

[00:48:20] Jordan Harbinger: For more with former Italian mob enforcer Anthony Raimondi, including the many creative ways mobsters have gotten rid of bodies over the years, check out episode 425 on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:48:33] This was an interesting one to prep, not just to conduct. There was a lot of FBI forms, court documents, affidavits, wiretap transcripts, et cetera, not the usual audiobook handed to me on a silver platter. And once again, as I said, during the show, if you're looking for Joe Barone, for any reason, just be aware, I really don't know where he is. All the information I had on him is scrambled and deleted and the Internet connection, even the servers I used, I've contacted the people there for my protection. So I cannot help you locate him in any way, even if I really, really wanted to. So don't come knocking on my door. 

[00:49:06] I got a bit of a special announcement as well. If you know anyone who's an experienced cybersecurity professional, or a very capable computer or IT professional. And again, I mean, somebody, not the guy who plugged into your computer and turned it on and updated Windows for you, but a legit expert. If you know someone like that and they want to help Ukraine, there are some groups out there who may be interesting to you. I would encourage you to take a look and do some research. I may be able to help guide you here a bit as well. The best groups they're helping in the cyber defense arena. This stuff is always non-violent. You're not going to shut down water systems or electricity or critical infrastructure or something horrible that harms people especially civilians. You're going to be making invasion, logistics slower and more difficult.

[00:49:48] And I am not affiliated with any particular group, I'm simply offering some advice here. A lot of you have been asking me about this. In a group, such as this, you would be reverse engineering, new malware, new threats, working on identifying unpatched and vulnerable systems in Ukraine, identifying supply chain and organization and fixing problems like that and keeping bad guys out of stuff. Again, happy to help guide you if you're rooting for the underdog. And a lot of these groups are just trying to buy some time for Ukraine. It's a humanitarian effort. Again, I'm just trying to spread the word like any other journalists and trying to save the lives of people on the ground, or at least make things a little bit easier for them.

[00:50:24] Of course, I wouldn't want you to do anything illegal. And like I said, last time, hey, if there's one thing you know about me, I'm on the straight and narrow, straight shooter. I'm coloring inside the lines, but we're in a middle of a crisis here and there's people who really need our help. 

[00:50:36] Big thank you to Joe Barone. Links to all things Joe will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Please use our website links for things like books if you buy them from guests on the show that helps support us. Transcripts are in the show notes. Videos on YouTube. Advertisers' deals, discount codes, all in one place at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or you can always connect with me on LinkedIn.

[00:50:58] I'm teaching you how to expand your network using the same software, systems, and tiny habits that I use. That's our Six-Minute Networking course. The course is free. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm teaching you how to dig that well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company. 

[00:51:17] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when he finds something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's into true crime, mafia stories, or you just think they'd be into this, share this episode with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

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