529: Qualms about QAnon Mom and Her Starseed Schtick | Feedback Friday

Qualms about QAnon Mom and Her Starseed Schtick | Feedback Friday (Episode 529)

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my co-conspirator in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave and are mission here on the show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, sometimes even inside of your own mind.

[00:00:38] And if you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, spies, CEOs, athletes, astronauts, authors, thinkers. And if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we have episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by topic. That'll help some new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started. 

[00:01:08] This week, we actually had a two-part series, so both shows, same guy with The Mole. This is Ulrich, The Mole, a man who went undercover in North Korea to expose their illegal arms trade. This is fascinating. This man, what he did, this was so freaking dangerous. The best part. He's not a special force badass, he's not an intelligence agent. He is a retired chef who got bored and decided to blow open the illegal weapons trade from North Korea to the Middle East, Africa, and elsewhere. It's a wild ass story, two parts, The Mole. Look for that. 

[00:01:42] I also write every so often on the blog. My latest post is called Six Things That Seem Like a Waste of Time, But Actually Aren't. I really enjoyed this one. It's about all the activities we think are indulgent, useless, daydreaming, making food, making friends with random people, going on vacation, cleaning your house. All that stuff we think, "Ugh, why do I have to do this?" Or this is just me indulging. This is actually some of the best stuff you can do for yourself. We draw on some of the latest scientific research and, of course, my own experience. We talk about all the important beliefs, physical, mental, creative, even spiritual — I know, I know, but it's still in there. The benefits of enjoying experiences that a lot of hustle bros and self-help gurus say are just you piddling your life away. It turns out it's quite the opposite. If we want to get up, we actually do have to waste our time more effectively. That's at jordanharbinger.com/articles. So make sure you've had a look and listen to all of that from this week.

[00:02:33] Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:02:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my mother had me as a young teenager and we have a strange relationship. I've always suspected that she has a personality disorder or some sort of mental health issue as she can be emotionally and physically abusive, manipulative, controlling, and someone narcissistic. She has been frequently laid off or let go of jobs. But in the past decade, she has become a Reiki healer and very interested in the new age world. Throughout the pandemic, she has been sending my siblings and me conspiracy theory videos, and recently sent me a long letter saying that she knows it sounds crazy, but she is a starseed and/or some kind of angel. The email also included a recording of a past life session. 

[00:03:14] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Hold up. Just anybody listening, who doesn't know, including myself. What is a star seed again? 

[00:03:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: So star people, it's basically a new age belief in alien-human hybrids. 

[00:03:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course. Okay. So this is somebody who thinks they're half alien and half human. I assume "sent here for a special mission," right? 

[00:03:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The basic idea, as far as I can tell, is that certain people originated as extraterrestrials and arrived on earth, either through birth or as a sort of what they call a walk-in, which is like walking into an existing human body, which means that their original soul departed their body and was replaced with a new soul.

[00:03:49] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, cool. Yeah. Just wanted to everyone on the same page. I haven't heard of that, but you know, it doesn't surprise me. I don't know why it would. 

[00:03:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Starseeds, it's the thing. 

[00:03:57] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. 

[00:03:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hadn't spoken to her in quite some time. As the last time we were in town, she refused to see us. The reason is that I have five half siblings, including an older sister. She gave up for adoption, unbeknownst to anyone in our family. She and I, the sister, we reconnected five years ago, but my mother has out and out rejected her and therefore us by association. 

[00:04:15] Jordan Harbinger: That really sucks for a lot of reasons, but I don't want to jump in with that. 

[00:04:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I phoned my mother last night to wish her happy birthday. I hadn't spoken to her since Christmas. And I've been considering cutting her out of my life, given her behavior when we last tried to visit. The conversation was going okay but she kept mentioning that COVID is no worse than the flu. I said, "Let's not get into that," but she kept mentioning it and then launched into why the numbers are wrong, how she's doing her own research, and so on. I was getting incredibly worked up and frustrated and she remained surprisingly calm. In retrospect, I do feel a bit batted. Then today I received another long and baffling email from her. I won't even begin to summarize this one, but it touches on everything from the idea of a World War III steeped in a negative agenda set out by controlling bloodlines to the fact that Biden is actually being played by Jim Carrey, to the fraudulence of the government and the banking system, to the powerful healing work my mom is now doing with a few higher dimensional beings. I don't feel like I can have my mom in my life anymore. Whenever I've tried to set boundaries with her, they are never respected. So instead I tend to limit contact. She seems so deep into all of these theories. I don't know if there's a way to persuade her otherwise. I have a therapist, but we haven't addressed much of this relationship since I've had such limited contact with my mom lately. Do you have any thoughts on what to do next or should I just walk away? Signed, Stay Strong and to Get Along or Say So Long to My QAmom.  

[00:05:39] Jordan Harbinger: QAmom, yeah, that's a good one. So this is really disturbing on so many levels. We're talking about a woman who is so steeped in fringe ideas. These ideologies are just stacked one on top of the other. It sounds like it's like a — what are those dolls called? Matryoshka dolls. 

[00:05:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Matryoshka dolls of paranoid— 

[00:05:56] Jordan Harbinger: Delusion. Yeah, the banking system is a fraud and also Jim Carrey's playing Joe Biden and also QAnon, and also World War III, vampire bloodlines, aliens, whatever. So it sounds like there's QAnon stuff. There's Q adjacent stuff. There's new age philosophy. There's magical thinking. There are glimmers of this religious movement from the 1930s. That's called I AM. Well, we won't get into that. And there's obviously a lot of narcissism and paranoia woven all into this. So I know it must be super scary to lose a parent to ideologies like this. Plus she's clearly struggling with mental health issues, possibly a full on mental illness. It's quite apparent to have I got to say, I'm just very sorry for both of you. You're going through this. 

[00:06:38] Since you're asking about combating ideology and mind control, at least in part, we consulted with Dr. Steven Hassan. Dr. Hassan is a mental health counselor who has been writing and teaching about mind control and destructive cults for over 40 years. He's the author of Combating Cult Mind Control and a few other books, a frequent guest on the show. You've seen him come on and talk about cults, mostly. Dr. Hassan's philosophy of dealing with loved ones like this, it's not the usual, "Yeah, cut them out of your life for good and be done with it," kind of approach. His approach is to use ethical influence, to help folks who have been unethically influenced. 

[00:07:12] So instead of influencing a person to be dependent and obedient and believe what you tell them, his approach is to use his term love based. He believes in respectfully asking thoughtful questions that direct the person to reevaluate what they currently believe and whatever relationship or group that they are now involved with. He also teaches something called the dual identity model, which basically suggests that there's a person underneath the cult person who is still there, who is still listening. That deeper person, they might not have it power at the moment. They might be a slave to the ideology, but they are listening in some way. And that is the person you need to be speaking to. So Dr. Hassan doesn't recommend cutting off all contact, not at first, anyway. 

[00:07:55] And your mom, she's genuinely sincere about drinking the Kool-Aid from the sound of it. She really does want to do her due diligence to help you. This Kool-Aid is laced with some batsh*t crazy stuff, for sure. But her intention, her goal, what she's hoping to achieve, you can understand what that is, or you can at least see where she's coming from. So the way that Dr. Hassan recommends engaging her is by starting with love, trust, and rapport. You can begin by sharing positive memories with her. Hopefully, you still have a view, even if you have to reach a little bit, give her some compliments, acknowledge her for her desire to understand the truth. Tell her you admire her idealism, her desire to make the world a better place. I know it sounds a little bit manipulative and I guess in a certain way, it is, but it's also not entirely false.

[00:08:41] This stage is crucial because you don't want your mom on the defensive from the start. Then Dr. Hassan recommends creating a frame of looking for the truth. So as opposed to the usual, "I'm right, you're wrong," and delusional approach, which let's just acknowledge, it's so tempting to do with somebody like this. Instead, Dr. Hassan recommends going with something like, "You know, mom, I hear what you're saying. You believe that there's a government conspiracy and that COVID is a hoax. Right now, I do not hold those opinions at all. But what matters most is what's really true, which can be proven and not just believed. So you have the truth and I don't, I need to know it. And if I have the truth and you don't, then you need to know it. Do you agree?" Something like that. And there's a lot more in Dr. Hassan's work and books, get her to agree to that baseline openness. 

[00:09:26] And that way you create a frame for arriving at the truth rather than what typically happens between two people like you and your mom, which is basically the indoctrinated person goes with what Dr. Hassan calls Putin's firehose of propaganda. They bomb you with 50 links to creepy dot-net websites. And then they say, "Do your own research. Don't be a sheeple." And then they're not researching anything. They're just being indoctrinated and foisting disinformation on anyone who isn't quote-unquote smart enough to do their own homework.

[00:09:53] And as you do this with your mom, Dr. Hassan then recommends creating what he calls a reciprocal frame. So you can say something like, "Think back to when you first started believing that COVID was a hoax or when you first started realizing that aliens were here," whatever the belief happens to be. And then you continue with, "Tell me what was most influential in you adopting this new belief?" If the evidence is a YouTube video, make a deal, you know, you'll watch something with her, but then you get to discuss it afterward. And then it's your turn to ask her to watch something that you choose and you watch it together and you discuss it and you go back and forth. 

[00:10:31] Now, of course, you're going to have to do actual research and find things that will undermine the indoctrination. For example, QAnon supporters, they think they're protecting people from child trafficking among other things, right? So educating them about what people who actually fight human trafficking know, what's been proven, how they're doing it. That is the way to go. Another good idea, focusing on organizations that are actually doing something with real people, not unnamed people. That's very common in these conspiracy theories. Your mom, she talks a lot about we, we, we — it's so common with people in these movements. It's all just vague, nothing.

[00:11:08] So if you can get her to name the people and institutions that are most influential to her, That would be really good. And if they do happen to be legit, then you can say, "Hey, it's really great. You're appealing to these entities, mom, I'm very interested to hear whether they find what you submit credible." And when your mom talks about being open and doing your research and being curious and questioning everything, that's obviously good advice in the abstract, but then that's attacked. You could talk with your mother, like, "Hey mom, do you think you're doing your research by taking this internet newsletter as fact? Are you questioning everything when you read something on Facebook and then you automatically share it with everyone?" You guys can subscribe to the same basic principles, even if you disagree wildly about the beliefs. And that is how you can use her own position to challenge her a little bit. 

[00:11:53] Final thing here, if you want to bring your mom back to reality, Dr. Hassan's advice is to build a team of concerned people around her. It is not all on your shoulders to bring her back. In your case, your siblings would be our greatest partners. And as Dr. Hassan pointed out, people in cults, they do so much better and they get out a lot faster if they have contact with quote-unquote normal people regularly, right? Non-cult people, people who they feel care about them, people who attempt to engage them in interaction rather than icing them out or shaming them for their beliefs. So as much as you can, I would build a little coalition in your family to help your mom stay grounded, especially given her personality and your relationship.

[00:12:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. This is really solid advice. I'm really glad that we talked to Dr. Hassan about this and I hear everything he's saying, and I get it in principle. But I'm of two minds here, because this is not just your garden variety, conspiratorial thinking. Mom is looking at some weird dot-net websites and picking up some strange beliefs about one or two pedophiles in the federal government or something like that. You know, something where if you showed her a couple of sources, she might say, "Okay, you're right. Maybe I should reconsider." Her mother seems to be wrestling with some more serious issues here. You know, she touched on the mental illness aspect. She suspects that she might have some kind of personality disorder or something similar to that. So I guess, my question is this type of dialogue, is this compassion even going to be productive with a mom like this? 

[00:13:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, you're right. So Dr. Hassan's advice is kind of like, "Here's what happens when otherwise normal people get caught up in cult ideology. 

[00:13:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. 

[00:13:25] Jordan Harbinger: And what we're dealing with here is somebody who thinks they're an alien hybrid and believes in the QAnon culty stuff and also has delusions that Jim Carrey is playing Joe Biden. I mean, there's also likely mental illness here in addition to cult ideology, not just, "Hey, our son was a straight A student and now he is joining a cult and going to South Korea." There's more to the story. 

[00:13:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's more to the story. And I think that also means that she needs to take into account her mother's idiosyncrasies and the specific issues she's wrestling with when she tries to rebuild or change the relationship. So I guess at a minimum, what we're saying is it's worth remembering that your relationship with your mom is pretty complicated and not just because of the QAnon stuff  and the starseed stuff, and the Jim Carrey playing Joe Biden stuff. By the way, Jordan, I don't know what to make of that house. 

[00:14:11] Jordan Harbinger: I've never heard that one. 

[00:14:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is she confusing SNL with real life? Like what— 

[00:14:15] Jordan Harbinger: I mean— 

[00:14:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: What's the thought there? 

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: That's likely that someone is doing that. Also, why Jim Carrey, I mean, they're not even—? If you said like, Harrison Ford or something, I'd be like, "Oh, okay," but why Jim Carrey?  

[00:14:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, you know, it's because Jim Carrey played Joe Biden on SNL. 

[00:14:29] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's even more — so this is just somebody who's like weird delusion and inability to tell a reality from— 

[00:14:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: For somebody who's very into conspiracy theories, that's a very odd one told because that would be the worst cover like, "By the way, Jim Carrey is playing Joe Biden and just for fun we're going to premier that impression on a comedy variety show. 

[00:14:48] Jordan Harbinger: Like a Mask Off. I mean, I think the logic is out the window, right? At this level, if somebody saw that SNL skit either in SNL or in one of those stupid YouTube cuts and they're like, "Oh my God, my alien super powers give me the ability to see through the virtual reality mask that he usually puts on when he's playing Joe Biden. I can see that it's Jim Carrey, let me expose this to the world." I mean, these people, when they're dealing with this kind of stuff, they're watching these things and they really have no idea necessarily what they're seeing, because their reality is just not shared. 

[00:15:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess, but the fact that that reality isn't even shared in this very basic way is exactly what I meant a moment ago, where like, how do you even have that conversation? 

[00:15:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes sense. 

[00:15:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: So all of that is to say that, yes, it's great that you're in therapy right now. I would definitely encourage you to talk to your therapist more about your relationship with your mother, what it was like growing up with a mom like this and what she might be bringing up for you now as an adult and Dr. Hassan agreed on that point. In fact, he pointed out that family members of people like your mom, they often get very triggered by the culty proselytization and the pushing. I mean, that's a pretty universal experience. So having a place to process your anger, your sadness, maybe the resentment, some of the resentment that you feel towards your mom, that's really important.

[00:15:56] And maybe down the road, maybe you invite your mom into therapy with you. If that's something you're interested in, and if it's something that she's willing to do. Your therapist or another therapist, they could help create a dialogue for you to maybe build some bridges, help her find a way back to reality and to your relationship. And obviously it would be amazing if your mom could get some help for herself as well, therapy for sure. A consult with a psychiatrist, maybe as well. But I'm not sure how much luck you're going to have there given her personality. But if you ever do spot an opening with her, like if she ever talks about, I don't know, feeling super depressed or maybe a little confused, or she spins out for a few weeks, or is she exhibits severe mood swings, something like that, maybe you can gently suggest that she sees somebody. And if she ever did get a diagnosis, that could be big, it could help her understand her attraction to fringe ideology. 

[00:16:42] Jordan Harbinger: That would be amazing. I've got to be honest though. I don't have super high hopes there. I just don't see QAmom rolling up to Dr. Levine's office for her weekly session to talk about her starseeds. If there's going to be a change, it's just got to almost certainly come from you and how you relate to your mom and how you handle her. 

[00:17:00] So the bottom line is staying in contact with your mom is her best shot at coming back and your best shot at repairing the relationship. You don't have to stay close with her, but pulling away, that's almost certainly going to entrench her further in this nonsense. Hopefully these approaches give you some inroads. If she lashes out at you, takes advantage of you, threatens you, or you just realize her mental health has deteriorated so severely that a conversation isn't even past, then I would limit contact or cut contact for sure. But until then, I would try to keep a line of communication open. We're also going to link to a ton of great resources for you in the show notes, Dr. Hassan's blog posts on talking to QAnon cultists, his book, my interviews with him on dismantling dangerous ideologies, and a past Feedback Friday episode about a guy whose wife became a conspiracy theorist. I highly recommend checking that stuff out. 

[00:17:49] As Dr. Hassan put it, the idea is to have hope over time. I know it's hard. I know it sad, but if you ever succeed in bringing your mom back, it'll be worth it. And we're rooting for both of you. Good luck. 

[00:18:00] By the way you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep emails concise. Tell us where you are, state, country include a descriptive subject line. That'll help us give you more detailed advice. If there's something you're going through, any big decision that you are wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous.

[00:18:29] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

[00:18:33] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. As we begin to see the light at the end of the COVID-19 tunnel, a lot of people are still feeling down and emotionally out of sorts. And I don't blame you. You may not feel depressed or at a total loss, but if you're feeling a little bit off or your relationships are suffering, that could be a sign that you should talk to somebody. If you're feeling anxious, you're struggling in your career, you're having trouble sleeping, online therapy — and it's not because you're a baby. Online therapy can help. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan. Fill out a questionnaire to help Better Help assess your needs and match you with a professional licensed therapist. 48 hours after filling out that questionnaire, weekly video, phone, or even live chat sessions can be yours. You can have your therapy straight from your bed if you want. Better Help is committed to facilitating great matches. So it's easy and free to change counselors if you do need a better fit. Online therapy is convenient and more affordable than in-person therapy and no driving and no parking. 

[00:19:24] Jen Harbinger: Our listeners get 10% off your first month of online therapy at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan. 

[00:19:33] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Raen. The sun's UV rays, which hurdled towards you at the speed of light will mess you up. My optometrist just reminded me during a recent checkup that sunglasses are crucial eye protection that helps prevent cataracts and macular degeneration. So it's important to get some good shades. I own some probably too expensive sunglasses. And I'm honestly not even sure why the thousand percent markup exists. I mean, I kind of know because of, you know, the whole brand thing and yeah, let's just say. The founders of Raen solved that when they started Raen back in 2009. Three California guys frustrated by the lack of quality eyewear at an accessible price. So they set off on a sunglasses journey focused on using premium materials. And I can attest, I can feel the quality of the shades. They are the best handmade sunglasses that I've seen. Their lenses are manufactured by the world-renowned Carl Zeiss Vision. You probably seen that name on your camera lenses. Plus they have a hundred percent UVA/UVB protection and tons of polarized options. So you can make sure your glasses don't just look good. But actually reduce glare and help you see things clearly. Free shipping, free returns, and a one-year warranty. 

[00:20:33] Jen Harbinger: So look no further, you finally found the perfect sunglasses brand. Right now, Raen has an exclusive offer just for our listeners. Head to R-A-E-N.com and use promo code Jordan to receive 25% off your first order. That's Raen, R-A-E-N.com and use promo code Jordan for 25% off your first. 

[00:20:51] Jordan Harbinger: And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:20:56] All right, what's next?

[00:20:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. Earlier this year, one of my oldest friends died of cancer. I really can't explain how close we were. I met him when we were in sixth grade. We went through every major life event together and we talked to each other almost every. We had a shared history and a sense of humor that I just don't have with any of my other buddies. It's basically an indescribable loss. All things considered, I'm doing all right. I still go to work. I show up for my friends and my family. I'm still taking care of myself, but I find that as time goes on, I'm left with this overwhelming feeling of anger. At who? I'm not sure, but it's definitely there. It flares up in unexpected moments. Like I'll snap at my girlfriend if I'm having a bad day or I'll explode at a bad driver in traffic. And honestly it freaks me. I'm not an angry dude by nature. I've talked a lot about my friend's death, including with a therapist, but the feeling won't subside and I'm starting to worry that there's something wrong with me. What can I do to release some of this stuff? Does the rage after grief ever go away or is this just who I am now? I'd appreciate any perspective you can offer. Signed, Screaming at the Top of My Lungs for Help. 

[00:21:59] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I'm so sorry you had to say goodbye to your friend, man. There are no good words when somebody this close to you passes away. It's up there with the hardest experiences that you can go through, the anger you feel. It makes total sense to me. Everything we've learned about grief says that anger, it really is a core part of that process. And as it happens, Gabe and I are reading this book called Grief Day By Day by Jan Warner. She wrote the book after her husband already died. And he was basically the love of her life. They had a great special marriage and then she lost him to cancer. And she learned that she was dealing with complicated grief, which means that the painful emotions associated with morning, they're so long lasting and severe that you have trouble recovering and resuming your normal. She eventually forced herself to start re-engaging with things, seeking out resources in communities and activities that she needed so that she could to use her words, "Find a home within myself for my grief," and that eventually morphed into this book, which contains all of her wisdom and exercises for working through grief.

[00:22:59] And Jan's view of the anger that you're feeling right now, first of all, it's totally normal. As she puts it in the book, she consciously understood that her husband didn't choose to die, obviously, but she was still angry at him for leaving her. And in the beginning, she was also angry at a lot of other people, if that sounds familiar, like people who still had what she had lost. "I hated happy couples," she writes at one point. "I hated everyone of the age my husband was when he died." She was furious with the doctor who first misdiagnosed her husband, took away his chance to fight it. Obviously, that's understandable as well. She was angry at herself for not recognizing that he was sick sooner and this anger generalized into an overall anger at the whole world.

[00:23:40] And so that's the first thing that you should know. You're allowed to be angry. It's normal to be angry, and there's nothing wrong with you. You're going through a profound loss here, and you're still very much in the morning period where that anger is still raw. You're still processing. And Jan experienced a lot of the same stuff that you did. Grief can be like somebody tap dancing on one's last nerve. She actually writes that in the book as well. It's difficult not to snap at those who try to help. And she notes that she apologizes often for meeting kindness with rage, but it still happens more than it should. 

[00:24:13] So as much as you can. I would try to be a little easier on yourself right now. I'm not saying you have full permission to flip out on every person who doesn't use their turn signal, or like yell at the girl who gets your Pinkberry order wrong, but you're already in pain. You don't need to create the additional judgment of feeling like you shouldn't be in pain or that you're not allowed to be in pain. And also the intensity of the anger that you feel right now, that's actually a reflection of how much you loved your friend. So love and anger in some ways they're two sides of the same coin, especially when it comes to that emotional intensity. And Jan talks about that in the book as well. The more she was able to frame her anger that way, the less it hurt. And the more it took on a new meaning basically as a reminder of her husband and her love for him, rather than a punishment for what she's been through. 

[00:25:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a really nice way of looking at it. I don't think it's going to fix it overnight or even in the next week or two or a month from now. But I do think that that is a nice way to reframe that feeling as a reflection of what the relationship meant to you while your friend was alive. And once you do find some more acceptance around the anger, Jan recommends finding a healthy way to use it. In fact, she points out that she actually writes this in the book. She says one good thing about it is that it often has energy that despair and depression lack. I thought that was interesting. I know that's probably a cold comfort right now, but your anger as volatile and as unpleasant as it is, it's really a sign of life.

[00:25:37] I mean, you could be so consumed by grief that you couldn't even get out of bed, but you're showing up to your life. You're showing up for your friends and family. You're thinking about your friend and your anger as uncomfortable as it is, it's finding expression out in the world. So as much as you can, we would encourage you to find some productive ways to apply that anger. Jan tried all sorts of things she talks about in the book, therapy, comedy, storytelling, blogging. She started a grief group on Facebook. I think that's actually sort of the beginning of how she started writing about grief in the first place. She showed up to events when she didn't want to. She started helping her friends and people she met. So she channeled all of the anger she felt into very specific opportunities and discovered a whole world of self-expression and processing that. It sounds like wasn't really available to her before. So I would try to find those things in your own life. Who needs you right now? Where can you direct your energies in a way that creates something new or helps somebody else.

[00:26:29] Maybe you go to the gym, hit a CrossFit class when you're feeling angry, maybe you sit down, you write a letter to your friend, or maybe you work on a photo album that you can send to his friends and family on the anniversary of his death. Whatever brings you comfort and lets you sublimate some of that anger into something safer, something healthier and something specific so you have something to show for it. Ultimately, Jen talks about how there's a real strength in that kind of anger, but there's even more strength she says in anger that has been tamed. And that's actually her real goal. She says, "Not to never be angry again," she writes this, "But to use my anger as a weapon against the grief." In fact, she's now at a place where she actually doesn't know who she would be without her anger. And I thought that was an interesting perspective. That's how useful it's been. 

[00:27:09] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. You know, if you can channel that rage into more specific and productive activity. You'll probably feel less anger everywhere else. And you hear about this a lot, Gabe, right? Like somebody loses somebody and then they end up volunteering a bunch. This is maybe not an outlet for anger, but it channels that sort of energy elsewhere or like people who really dive into community service when something like this happens because instead of just being at home and like thinking about it, they're able to distract, but they're also helping people. So they're getting all kinds of good feedback as a result in exchange for that energy.

[00:27:42] And while you focus on all that, I would continue all the great work that you're doing. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy. Keep going, keep opening up. Talk about your friend, even if it's unpleasant, especially when it's unpleasant. I know that it's painful, but I promise you that you will get to a healthier place faster than if you try to suppress it. And keep being patient because as corny as it sounds, this really is a process and these feelings, they're all part of it. So I'm sorry that you've gone through this. I wish it didn't happen, but it did. And if I've learned anything from losing a few friends over the years, it's that there's a lot of wisdom and gratitude on the other side. And I hate that I just said something that corny sounding, but it is true. And I know that you'll find that, man. We'll link to Jan's book Grief Day By Day in the show notes. I highly recommend checking that out. I think it'll be a great companion for you. We're sending you good thoughts, man. 

[00:28:30] All right. What's that?

[00:28:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm leading an engineering team at a startup that has exploded in growth. We went from 10 people to 26 people in the last six months and we're still hiring. Problem is I am absolutely miserable. The company is spread across every time zone in the world. So there's a huge amount of async hyperactive hive mind communication. I feel like I'm always behind on Slack and email. I hate having to tell people to do their jobs and be the bad guy when my personality leans towards non-confrontation and the CEO is non-technical. So he has a lot of unrealistic expectations oftentimes going over my head and talking to engineers directly distracting them from the higher impact tasks we've already agreed to. I tried to hand in my resignation yesterday as I have enough money to last for a long time and no family or mortgage. And thanks to your networking course, I have multiple connections who said they'd gladly hire me in a heartbeat as an engineer again. However, the CEO started apologizing, told me to sleep on it and said to come back to him with a list of anything I needed, whether that'd be a leadership coach, a vacation, or just a plan for extra help. I spoke to one of our advisors too, and he told me to quit if I simply don't want to be a manager. But if I ever want another leadership position again, I would run into the same issues, so now's the time to buckle down and figure it out. I really don't want to go back to engineering if I can help it, but I'm seriously considering a lower stress, lower responsibility role where I don't have to hold people accountable. How do I know if I'm quitting a great opportunity or just leaving somewhere with problems that are out of my control? Signed, Should I Stay or Should I Grow Now. 

[00:30:03] Jordan Harbinger: It's a great question. And I got to say, I love how self-aware you are being about all of this. It's true. If you don't find a new way to relate to this job, then this problem will probably recreate itself in the next one. It's also possible that this company just isn't for you anymore, but then it sounds like it has some very specific dysfunctions that are unique to this role. So how do you separate all these things out? 

[00:30:25] Well, I would want to start by taking some time to figure out which of these variables you can work on, which ones you want to work on and which ones you just have to accept. So the non-confrontation thing, that seems like a good example of something you can and probably should work on if you want to be in any kind of leadership role. And I'd be willing to bet that your impulse to avoid conflict at a minimum, that's making this dysfunctional situation worse and might even be the cause of some of the dysfunction. But then there are things about the job that are objectively frustrating and uncool. Like the CEO going over your head and talking to your engineers directly. It's very possible that you wouldn't find that dynamic at another job. And maybe that's a good reason to go somewhere else. But here's the thing, the nature of your job and the nature of your personality, they're interacting.

[00:31:13] Your CEO is creating dysfunction for sure, but you're not hashing it out with him, finding a better way to work together, protecting your engine nearest from interference, that is definitely compounding this person. If you developed that aspect of your personality, if you learn how to navigate that healthy conflict, this situation would probably get a lot better and it might even go away entirely. So what seems like a fixed problem at this job, that's not really the full story. You are playing a role in it too, even if it's just by letting it continue. 

[00:31:43] Now, you might decide that you don't want to work on that skill and that's a fair choice, but then you have to be willing to take a non-leadership role. You can't have both responsibility and non-confrontation. It just doesn't work that way. And the last thing you want to do is shift to a lower stress, lower responsibility role that you hate even more, just because you're afraid to hold people accountable right now. 

[00:32:06] So here's what I would recommend. You could run around in circles, trying to figure out if some hypothetical choice would make you happier instead of grasping at that, why don't you take your CEO up on his offer. If you need a month off to recover and get some perspective, take it. If you need to hire some new people under you so you can get some help, do it. If you're open to working with a coach, go for it. I've got to say having your company offered to pay for all of that stuff, especially an executive coach or an assistant or both, that is an amazing offer. Very few people get that opportunity. It says a lot about how much they value you. And if this is me, I'm jumping at the chance to work with a coach and probably grab some help as well. Best case scenario, the coach helps you work on these problems. Worst case scenario, you grow as a person, you grow as a manager, but then you're just much better equipped to leave or make a change because you've had all that coaching and development.

[00:32:59] Now, if you try to mix all of that in, and then in six or nine months, you're still freaking miserable and your CEO is still bugging the crap out of you and you can't handle it, then you know, it really is. But I'd give yourself and your boss a chance to sort it out before you jump ship. And if and when you jump ship, you've got a bunch of new skills to take with you into a new role. So good luck, man. 

[00:33:22] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:33:27] This episode is also sponsored by Manscaped. Father's day is over, but you might still have a hairy dad. Make your dad proud this year, get him and yourself the Manscaped Lawn Mower 4.0, the ultra smooth package. You know, what they say like father, like son? The brand new Lawn Mower 4.0 — God, they're really leaning into this. There's an ultra smooth package is perfect for you and the dad and your life to complete your grooming game. Get 20% off and free shipping by going to manscaped.com/jordan and it's available in the US and Canada. So you all Canadians, you can finally get this. This thing is 7,000 RPM. Something that sounds safe to me, but it does have skin safe technology to keep your junk in check and reduce manscaping accidents around the world. And they've got a 4,000K LED spotlight on it, so you can make sure you're shaving what you think you're shaving. Let's just put it that way. Let's say it's more precise shave. Additional guard length, so it lets you channel your inner topiary artists below the belt as well. 

[00:34:21] Jen Harbinger: Get 20% off and free shipping by going to manscape.com/jordan. That's 20% off with free shipping by going to manscape.com/jordan. It's dad bod season, time to get smooth.

[00:34:33] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by Caldera + Lab. Guys, what are you using on your skin? Did you know that conventional skincare is often full of suspicious ingredients and irritants that you don't want to put on your skin? And while most natural skincare brands have good intentions, they often don't have any science to back up their performance at all. It's just a bunch of fluffy crapola. Caldera + Lab's mission is to change that. They create high performance men's skincare by combining pharmaceutical grade science, nature's purest and most potent ingredients and sustainable business practices, which we always appreciate. I'm putting on their award winning serum every night before I go to bed. You know, I got to avoid that dry skin. Caldera + Lab conducts clinical trials on their products to make sure that they work on all skin types, ages, and ethnicities, and they believe in their product so much that they stand by a 60-day guarantee. So if you don't see any results after 60 days, they offer a full refund.

[00:35:22] Jen Harbinger: They're offering listeners of our show, a special discount, go to calderalab.com/jordan. That's C-A-L-D-E-R-A- lab.com/jordan. Or use code Jordan at checkout to save 20%. 

[00:35:34] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Hyundai. Hyundai questioned everything to create the best Tucson ever. Every inch of the all-new Tucson has been completely re-imagined resulting in an SUV loaded with available innovations, both inside and out. From design to tech to safety, every aspect of the new Tucson has been improved upon. Honda's digital key allows you to transform your smartphone into a spare key. And if you're geriatric like me and is forgetful of where your keys are, it's one less thing to remember. LED daytime running lights are stylishly hidden within the cascading front grill making them invisible when not in use. Set multiple user profiles. So if you share your car like I do, I can hop out and have a seat, mirrors, climate control, radio presets, all personalized for me. Plus a 10.25-inch full touch infotainment screen, and a blind spot view monitor. The SUV has been completely redesigned inside and out to create the best Tucson ever. Learn more@hyundai.com. 

[00:36:24] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday, 

[00:36:42] Next up.

[00:36:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. One year ago, I ended my engagement to my girlfriend of seven years. I spent most of the year depressed and fighting back. That's when I met my current roommate. Initially, I wasn't interested in her and she also had a boyfriend, but over time we got to know each other. Her relationship ended and I came to learn that, that relationship and the one before it were very toxic. I also learned that our previous marriage to a guy she had a child with was even more toxic. And before she met him, she was with a guy who was abusive. So I understand that she has some trauma she's working through. I then learned that she had feelings for me too. And after a few months of hiding them, we got intimate. Over time though, she began to withdraw saying that she wanted time to work on herself after her past traumatic relationships. She now spends most of her time in her room. When I do see her, she doesn't look happy. I think we both feel that this is a genuine connection, but her self-discovery is more important to her. And she says she doesn't feel like she'll be ready for awhile and she doesn't want to leave me on. This really hurt me to feel a connection like this and for it to suddenly go cold, that definitely opened up some old wounds. I feel that she's muting her feelings and it's pushing me away. I'm trying to convince myself that it's all about divine timing and what's meant to be, will be. But I often spend my time wondering if she still has feelings for me. I've picked back up the routines and self-discovery activities that I did after my engagement to get back into a healthier state of mind but the pain is still there, especially when I see that she isn't doing too well. So what do I do? Signed, Wait for My Soulmate or Cut Bait with an Ill-Fated Roommate. 

[00:38:17] Jordan Harbinger: You know, game for a second, I was like, is this a recap of New Girl season three? Because this sounds really familiar. 

[00:38:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very NBC's sitcom remix. 

[00:38:24] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It's kind of sweet, but it also totally sucks. And breakups are hard enough. But living with the person you just broke up with who you never officially broke up with and who you're still in love with. It's a no, thanks. 

[00:38:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not an easy situation. But that's also the risk you take when you do the no-pants dance with the person you split the Comcast cable bill with, I mean, you got to know that going in, right? 

[00:38:45] Jordan Harbinger: It's definitely the risk you take. So look, we can't peer into your roommate/ex's mind. We can only talk about you. So that's where we're going to focus. It sounds to me like this woman is going through some stuff to say the least, her history with relationships messy at best, toxic relationships, an abusive boyfriend, a kid in the mix. And like you said, she's got some trauma to work through and it sounds like she agrees. For all, you know, the dynamic that developed between you two, that could be part of her pattern. It probably brought up a whole lot of things for her as well. And it's hard to be sure, but there's obviously a lot going on and she felt the need to pull away. 

[00:39:22] At the same time, and I really don't mean to pissing your Cheerios here, honestly, I could be totally wrong, part of me wonders if she just does not feel the same way about you, that you do about her. Maybe she does and maybe that's part of what's giving her pause, how intense the relationship is, but maybe she's also pulling away because she wants something different and it's hard for her to say that to somebody that she still has to live with. 

[00:39:42] Because, Gabe, tell me if I'm crazy here, but if you're really into somebody and you also have to work on yourself, wouldn't you want to work on yourself and also keep the person at the same time. Like wouldn't you want to keep them close to you while you figure your sh*t out. It just sounds like a cover to me. 

[00:39:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear you. And yes, I agree. But it's also possible that she really does have some serious work to do, and she knows that. And it's hard to do that when she's caught up in this whirlwind, messy romance with her roommate. Sometimes when people say they need space, it's not just code. They really do need space. 

[00:40:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, how often does that happen? If she had strong feelings for him, she'd say something like, "I'm terrified to lose you, but I really need to figure my sh*t out. I hope you can wait." Or like, "Let's take it slow." And I feel like the break wouldn't be so clean instead she's just like, "Yeah. My self discovery is more important to me right now. I'm going to lock myself in my room and watch Netflix for two months." I don't know. Something's not right. Like for a while, "I don't want to lead you on," it just sounds like code for "I'm not into this anymore."

[00:40:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now that you're saying it back, you're right. That is fair. I guess I do see some signals buried in there. I guess what you're getting at though, is it almost doesn't matter why she's pulling away, right? Whatever it is, something has shifted for her and something else, whether it's self-discovery or just being on her own or just trying to protect her independence, whatever it is that is taking priority in her life.

[00:40:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, look, we can sit here and try to figure out what's going through her head wondering if she still has got feelings for you if you're sitting here mulling that over, I get it. We've all been. But the fact of the matter is for whatever reason, this relationship just isn't working and you're hanging around while you live together. And she's very clearly telling you not to do that emotionally, physically, you have no choice, you're roommates, right? But don't mentally hang around either. 

[00:41:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I agree with that. And I would actually go a step further and say that the fact that she's keeping you in the dark here, that is a problem. That's a problem apart from all of the other problems that are going on here because this feels to me like a total breakdown in communication. She's not just pulling away. She's depriving you of the information that you need to even understand what's going on for her. What is happening here? And that's not fair, especially when you guys are living 10 feet away from each other at all times. That's not a very respectful or mature way to treat somebody you care about or somebody you live with. 

[00:41:51] Jordan Harbinger: It's true. That might point to some deeper issue between them. Or who knows? It could be totally part of the dysfunction she's found in her other relationships. We just don't know. So as painful as it is, I think you just need to accept that this relationship is ending. I would definitely encourage you to talk to your roommate, let her know it's safe to tell you how she's feeling, tell her that you want to understand her better and make sure that your living situation is as drama-free as possible. And when you do, you'll have to be willing to hear some hard truths if there are any but ultimately actions speak louder than words. She's staying in her room. It's because she wants to be in her room. You know, she doesn't want to be in your room or in the common area. 

[00:42:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I totally agree with you Jordan. And if things don't improve or you find it really hard to move on, then you might want to reconsider your living situation. I'm not sure that this arrangement is totally healthy. It's certainly not drama-free now without much better communication between the two of you. Again, great drama for a sitcom about a Jim and Pam type relationship, but in real life, not so much. I got to say, I was really happy to hear that you've picked back up the routines that you found after your engagement, having a life outside of this person, maintaining your own identity, staying engaged, staying productive. When you have this drama going on, that is crucial. So good job there. That's really important. I would keep doing that. 

[00:43:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've always done that for breakups as well. Like anytime I broke up with somebody, I've learned a new skill, usually a new language. So if you guys are wondering why I speak five freaking languages, I guess I've tanked a lot of relationships.

[00:43:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, is that why? It's not because you're a savant. It's just that you've done that so many times. That makes sense. 

[00:43:20] Jordan Harbinger: No, I'm terrible with the opposite sex. I hope you resolve this with your roommate, but if you. Or if it's just too weird and painful, then I hope you find a way to move on whatever that looks like for you. Just because you have strong feelings about this person. It doesn't mean it's the right relationship. So good luck, man. And if Gabe ever writes a TV show based on your letter, definitely make him give you a cameo and that'll get you some of those sag residuals. 

[00:43:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the deal. 

[00:43:46] Jordan Harbinger: All right. What's next? 

[00:43:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, there's an open director position within my company that I've recently applied for, which would essentially be a promotion. The job was posted both internally and externally, so a number of my contacts have reached out to me, asking for referrals, catch up calls, meetings, and so on. I'm conflicted here because I'm unsure how it would look for me to refer candidates who would wind up becoming my manager. And because selfishly, I don't want to recommend someone else for a job that I want. I don't want to damage my network by not responding. I want to provide some sort of followup or feedback, but without sounding selfish or self-conscious. So how do I handle this situation? Signed, Bring Them In or Box Them Out. 

[00:44:26] Jordan Harbinger: This is a great question. You're basically caught between two important needs: to advance their own interests on the one hand and to help other people on the other. And usually there's a way to do both, but in some situations like fighting for a job that only one person can be hired for, this is a zero sum game and that's where it can get a little bit tricky. So, let me start by sharing a principle that has guided me pretty well over the years. It is totally fair and usually essential to make sure that your basic needs are being met before you help someone else.

[00:44:56] Now, this is especially true in situations where helping someone else would put you at serious risk. I don't mean just always look out for yourself, obviously. I mean, the show obviously is evidence otherwise. But for example, let's say you're a salesman and you need to hit a certain target to pay your rent this month, or be in good standing, it would be reckless and misguided to then give your leads away to another salesperson, even if that would help you build the relationship. But once you've hit your target and you aren't at risk of being homeless or hungry or in debt or out on your butt, then you're good to spread that value around and you should. 

[00:45:29] Another example, I'm friends with a ton of podcast hosts, obviously, and we often share guests with one another. Now, if I get access to a high profile guest, that's a big win for me. It's also a potentially big source of value if I refer that guest to another show. But I wouldn't give up my exclusive to help another host at my own expense. I would want to be of service, of course, but I have to make sure that I'm doing everything I can to make my own show a success because that's my job, it's my business. But once I do that interview, I'm always more than happy to introduce that guest to my peers if I think it's going to be a win-win for the guest and for the show. So of course those goalposts move over time. And in many cases it's important to play the long game. But at any given moment, you should know what absolutely you need to be okay. How much money, how much time, how much influence, whatever it is, you can't abandon yourself in the pursuit of helping other people. 

[00:46:24] So my advice to you is this, if you really want this job and you actually have a good shot at getting it and recommending other people would definitely get in your way, I think it's okay for you to not refer them. I know that might be a little controversial, maybe even contradictory given how much we yammer on this show about being generous but this is your life. This is your career. You have to advocate for yourself. That is your job. But if you realize that this is a long shot, you don't have a chance in hell. You don't end up getting the job, then I would 100% refer the people that you believe in that also sends a really positive message to your bosses too. You know, "Hey, thanks so much for considering me. I understand. I'm not your guy. I'd still love someone great to be in this role. Here are a few amazing candidates that I've worked with that I think you should look at." Now at this point, there's literally no downside to helping someone else out.

[00:47:14] So how do you handle that in the meantime? I would definitely not respond to the people who are asking you for a referral and be like, "Hey bud, sorry, I'm gunning for this role. I'm not going to help." I would say something along the lines of, "I'd love to help, but it's hard for me to champion someone for this role right now, but I'll keep an eye on it. And maybe we can try again in a couple of months when I have more information." Just leave it at that. And yeah, I know it sounds a little vague or disingenuous. I think it's okay to be vague in this case. If someone has a better way of handling this, I'm all ears. Or if you're really friendly with some of these candidates, like your homies outside of work, I might actually say, "All right, this is a little awkward, but we're friends. So I can tell you this I'm up for the role as well. So I can't really refer anyone else right now, but if I don't get it, I'm going to be thrilled to recommend you for sure. No problem." Now that might actually not be such a bad thing to say, most people are going to appreciate your honesty. You're not sabotaging them. You know, there's nothing negative going on. You're just trying to get a first crack at it, which is totally fair. 

[00:48:15] But as you do that, I would also keep finding ways to be of service. If throwing a few other candidates into the mix along with you would only make you look better. In other words, if it really isn't a zero sum game, go for it. If another great role pops up, maybe you refer these people for that. If you can help them navigate the process without putting yourself at a huge disadvantage, maybe you share your time and expertise. And if you do land this job, which I hope you do, then definitely use your new position to create more value for these folks down the road, because they're almost always ways to be generous to other people, even if you're advocating for yourself and you should definitely be doing both of those things consistently.

[00:48:56] Hope you enjoy that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week. And of course, everyone who've listened, thank you so much for that. Go back and check out the two-part series we did this week with Ulrich, The Mole who went undercover in North Korea if you haven't yet. 

[00:49:09] If you want to know how we managed to book all these amazing guests on the show, I use systems, software, and tiny habits, and I'm teaching you how to do the same for free in our Six-Minute Networking course, that's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig the well before you get thirsty people, that's what you hear in a lot of these Feedback Friday answers and there's a reason for that, jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:49:32] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com as well. Transcripts in the show notes. There's a video of Feedback Fridays on our YouTube channel, jordanharbinger.com/youtube. And we have an exclusive clips channel with stuff that doesn't make it to the shows, can't find anywhere else. That's at jordanharbinger.com/clips. It's YouTube as well. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. And you can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:50:01] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions. They're our own. And I'm a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:50:34] You're going to hear a trailer for our interview, with the infamous FyreFest, Billy McFarland from inside a federal prison, where he's serving six years for fraud and on the hook for $26 million in restitution. Here's a quick bite.

[00:50:48] Female Operator: You will not be charged for this call. This call is from— 

[00:50:51] Billy McFarland: William McFarland. 

[00:50:53] Female Operator: —an inmate at a federal prison. Hang up to decline the call or to accept dial five now. 

[00:51:01] Jordan Harbinger: When I asked before on our first call, if you were a con man, we had 10 seconds of silence. Is this the new Billy that we're hearing or are you the same Billy that tried to pull off the Fyre Festival? 

[00:51:12] Billy McFarland: When I think about the mistakes that were made and what happened. There's no way I can just describe it other than what the f*ck was I thinking? I was wrong. And I hope now that I can, in some small way, make a positive impact. 

[00:51:25] Jordan Harbinger: Once you knew that the festival wasn't going to go as planned, why didn't you call it off? 

[00:51:31] Billy McFarland: So a lot of people don't know, but the decision to cancel the festival was made when I was told that three people had died at the event. Thankfully, no one was actually physically hurt in any way, but up until the last second, I believed incorrectly that we could pull it off and obviously I was wrong. We had something called the urgent daily payments document. And basically it was as Google Excel sheets. Essentially, it was a list of payments that we had to make that day or else the festival couldn't proceed. In the couple of months leading up to the event, it went from a couple thousand dollars a day to a few million dollars a day where I had to wake up at nine in the morning to find three million dollars by noon and then make the payments by four.

[00:52:08] Jordan Harbinger: How was solitary confinement? Essentially, being locked in a box, like that sounds terrible. 

[00:52:12] Billy McFarland: It really makes you think. And I think the biggest takeaway was, you know, there was one guy who was serving a 30-year sentence. He was already locked in the same room for three and a half years when I was there. 

[00:52:23] Jordan Harbinger: You had a big vision. I mean, it was huge. And you got so close to something great that everyone wanted to be a part of and people still want to be a part of it. I have to wonder if there's going to be FyreFest version two. I assume you wouldn't call it that, but are you thinking of doing something similar? 

[00:52:37] Billy McFarland: If there's anything that makes you want to create and build and deal with being locked in a cage for months or years. Are you going to come? 

[00:52:45] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Billy McFarland, including lessons learned on the inside, the value of trust, and Billy's plans for the future once he served at the time he agrees, he rightly deserves, check out episode 422 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:52:59] This episode is also sponsored by Quip. We all have that clean, minty, fresh feeling you get from mouthwash, those plastic mouthwash bottles though, not so much. They're big. They're bulky. They're not nice to look at. They freaking screw up the planet. That's probably why a lot of us end up stashing them under the sink, and then you want to recycle them, but are they even recyclable? It's pretty hard to kill germs or help prevent cavities if you get the thing in a closet where you don't even see it. Luckily the oral care experts of Quip created an alcohol-free mouthwash that keeps your mouth healthy without the burn. And thanks to a sleek refillable dispenser, it's pretty easy on the eyes too. You know, Quip, they make those electric toothbrushes and floss that you hear about all the time they've launched the new mouthwash to help complete your clean. Plus it comes with a refillable dispenser that's delightful to use and sleek enough to fit on any bathroom counter. Just ask my kid who loves pushing the button over and over and over again. 

[00:53:47] Jen Harbinger: And if you go to get quip.com/jordan5 right now, you can get $5 off a mouthwash starter kit. That's $5 off a mouthwash starter kit, which includes a refillable dispenser and a 90-day supply of Quips 4X concentrated formula at getquip.com/jordan5, spelled G-E-T-Q-U-I-P.com/jordan5. Quip, the good habits company.