519: Dacher Keltner | The Power Paradox

Dacher Keltner | The Power Paradox (Episode 519)

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[00:00:03] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:00:06] Dacher Keltner: We kind of demonize the leaders. We think about mad men, you know, ruining the world. And that in part is true. You know, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, were no doubt crazy individuals, but we also have to think carefully about social systems and the social context. And you will have really strong forms of power that are good for broad collectives if you have ways, forms of accountability.

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[00:01:27] Today, we're talking with Dacher Keltner who's a professor at Berkeley. One of the world's foremost scientists who specialized in the study of power. He's also wrote a book called The Power Paradox, which I can recommend if you're into this subject matter. Today, we'll discuss why the imbalance of power in society is actually one of the greatest threats to society. We'll discuss how we can increase our power relative to others in a healthy way. We'll outline that, something called the power paradox and how this affects us and, of course, affects our society at large. And powerlessness, how this can literally be lethal. This is one from the vault. There's a lot of concepts here that I wasn't expecting. So enjoy this one with Dacher Keltner. 

[00:02:01] And if you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it's because of my network. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free business, personal, just for fun, whatever it is over at jordanharbinger.com/course. You'll find the free course. I don't need your credit card. I just want you to teach you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. And by the way, most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course, they contribute to the course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong. Now, here's Dacher Keltner.

[00:02:31] Thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it. 

[00:02:33] Dacher Keltner: It's great to be with you, Jordan. 

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: You're the author of The Power Paradox. I've read that. It was fantastic. It was kind of something, a little unexpected in that. I don't want to say an academic look at power, but certainly, you've taken more of a careful look at power than most people who even write about power. It's not just, "Look people in the eye when you shake hands and you'll get the power," and it's not these little techniques and tricks, but it's a real study. Well, first of all, tell us what you do in one sentence. 

[00:02:59] Dacher Keltner: Sure. 

[00:02:59] Jordan Harbinger: Then we'll dive into the rest. 

[00:03:01] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, I'm a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and run a big lab that studies power and the evolution of humans and goodness. 

[00:03:07] Jordan Harbinger: And the book, The Power Paradox — what is the power paradox? 

[00:03:11] Dacher Keltner: The power paradox is what I think is one of the most important laws of human behavior. And it's this really interesting irony, which is that people get power by advancing the interests of other people, be it in a school or at work. And then the paradox begins, which is once you feel powerful, you lose all the skills that advanced the interest of others and got you powered in the first place. 

[00:03:33] Jordan Harbinger: But people don't necessarily advance the interest of others to gain power on purpose, most of the time, right? It's not purely altruistic, but also it's not like, "If I help enough people, I can eventually screw all those people over. 

[00:03:46] Dacher Keltner: Well, there's a little bit of that going on. And there's this funny literature called competitive altruism where that may be at play, but no, you know what scientists have discovered who have studied how we get power in different kinds of social groups is really aligning with what you're saying, Jordan, which is that we have a lot of different kinds of social behaviors that advance other people's welfare and their interests. We give them resources, we share, we cooperate, we collaborate. And as a result of those tendencies, groups will elevate your social status because you're good for the group. So it's a consequence of these prosocial tendencies. 

[00:04:18] Jordan Harbinger: Power is given to you. It's not taken because you're so altruistic that you decide to grab it with an iron fist. It's not Machiavelli. 

[00:04:25] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. There are so many myths of power out in our culture. And one of them — in fact, I think one of the most pernicious is the one you just outlined, which is the idea that you just go grab power. And yeah, that happens in Mexican drug cartels and in little areas of hotspots in Africa and the like, but most of the time you don't go grab power if you join a workforce or you enter into a community. It's given to you by the collectives that you join. 

[00:04:56] Jordan Harbinger: So, is it the same thing as influence? Because I'm thinking— 

[00:04:59] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Jordan Harbinger: —of power, for example, online or influence online kind of translates to power. Maybe it's not the same thing. 

[00:05:05] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. In fact, I think that's one of the most important statements that I try to make in The Power Paradox, which is that, you know, when you ask the average American or average industrialized individual, "What's power?" They're going to tell you. Power is money. Power  is military might. My power is how big you are. Power is force. But in point of fact, when you look at history, and you think about all the ways in which we influence the world, be it through a blog or podcast or scientific discovery or a great book or rock and roll song, power is your influence on others. And often, it's independent of money. It's independent of military might. It's really what we're doing day to day in influencing others. 

[00:05:49] Jordan Harbinger: So how does Machiavelli fit and he's kind of the OG power scientist, right? He probably wouldn't have been at Berkeley, but— 

[00:05:55] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, he would have had a short career at Berkeley or, you know, we've had our Machiavellians well, Machiavelli figures profoundly in our thinking about power. In fact, most analyses, if you look at. Like how influential books are and books are profoundly influential, the Bible, the Analects of Confucius.  Machiavelli is in the top 20, right? Here's the book, The Prince. And people know what Machiavellianism is. 

[00:06:21] Jordan Harbinger: Even if they haven't read the book, they know what it is, most likely. 

[00:06:23] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And you know, so power is Machiavelli's view, force, manipulation, deception, strategic ruthlessness. And a lot of people think that that's what power is, but the new social science really kind of disconfirms that idea. And it makes us remember, Machiavelli wrote in a period in human history, which was probably as violent as any time in human history when politics were really brothers killing brothers.

[00:06:50] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:06:50] Dacher Keltner: And very little rule of law, there was torture was commonplace. So it was a philosophy of power that fit that time and certain subcultures today. But you know, when you look outside, it doesn't work as well as we think. 

[00:07:02] Jordan Harbinger: Right. We don't stand for it as a society or as a civilization in general, Western civilization anyways.

[00:07:08] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:07:09] Jordan Harbinger: Do you think that's changed? Do you think power is constantly evolving and what it actually means given, maybe the context, the society, the type of civilization, it just changes. 

[00:07:19] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. What a terrific observation and the human mind and as social scientists, we like things to be stable and fixed, but there's no more dynamic property of human relations than power. And we ebb and flow. There are studies showing from the past 40 to 50 years. That power has really shown this dramatic shift from being hierarchical and more top down to what's right outside here in new Silicon valley, which is it's more horizontal and it's bi-directional, it's distributed. Power is shifting all the time. We're worried today in world politics about a little soft rise of fascism. Like, wow, look what happened in France and Austria and maybe Donald Trump has this reappearance of one kind of power. We thought we were done with, so power is always shifting as you say. 

[00:08:07] Jordan Harbinger: We get power now in this current incarnation of the society or civilization for now, depending on when you're watching this. We get power by improving the lives of others in our network. 

[00:08:16] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:08:17] Jordan Harbinger: How did you discover this? First of all, because when you write it, it's like, well, yeah. Okay. That makes sense, but you weren't probably just sitting around one day and decided I'm writing about this. You had to test that somehow. 

[00:08:26] Dacher Keltner: We did. So, you know, I'm a scientist and I always test hypotheses with empirical data. And so, you know, that's why I feel confident saying that in most contexts that your listeners live in Machiavellianism, force  manipulation. It may get you attention, but it doesn't get you lasting influence. How we tested it is as follows. I'll give you a couple of examples from our lab and this illustrates a broader literature. We would track groups as they formed and found and would try to ascertain: who kind of gets power? How fast does it happen? Who has influence? Who keeps power over time? You know, we studied fraternities on college campuses. We studied dormitories, sororities, kids in summer camps. We've studied the US Senate, which I'll tell you about. And what you find is within a week of a group forming, we have a pretty shared sense of who we trust and who has power and who's on the margins of power. 

[00:09:24] Jordan Harbinger: Really in that short of a period of time?

[00:09:25] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And in fact, there are other studies from business school labs, like Cameron Anderson showing, you know, within an hour or two, group leaders are starting to emerge. 

[00:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: I believe that for sure, even within conversations of multiple people, you start to say, "Okay, this is like the dominant guy." 

[00:09:40] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: And then the other guy who wants to be dominant, but just really just kind of irritating or annoying.

[00:09:46] Dacher Keltner: That's right. And we have like these radars for those kinds of people. And so when we study these individuals and we sort of then find out like, who are these people who have that? And they tend to be dynamic. They have a lot of juice. They connect other people, but really interestingly and most importantly, they're very engaged in the interest of other people. They're going around, patting people on the back, they know where they're coming from. They encourage others, they throw out great ideas. So they're just engaged in others. 

[00:10:15] Jordan Harbinger: And you hear about that as a kind of a quality of the CEO that everyone loved or was always asking you about people. And he remembered things about people and he was involved in other people's lives, in surprising ways that were somehow scalable, right? Like, on your birthday, it's probably his secretary, but he calls you and says, "Hey, I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. Thanks for working here for 20 years." Those types of things and then also looking out for people on your team, making sure that they're not taken advantage of or getting worn down. You hear about that in the military, you hear about that in Silicon Valley companies that are successful. And when people don't do that, when they rule by an iron fist, you see their ranking in — I can't remember who tracks this, but like worst companies to work for.

[00:10:55] Dacher Keltner: Is that right? 

[00:10:55] Jordan Harbinger: It's always, you know, oh, the CEO made his employees buy their own hotels on this business trip, number two, right? And then places that you expect to be there, like radio shack all the way at the bottom, right? 

[00:11:05] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:11:06] Jordan Harbinger: Well, you hear about that. And so if this is constructed by society constructed by right civilization, how did the changes evolve?  Because it seems like they're kind of innately human, but maybe all of the software's built in or all the hardware is built into us. But the software activates, depending on our surroundings or something. Like a Tesla autopilot is built in, but unless you pay for it, you can't use it. For example, humans, have we changed very much physiologically since Machiavelli? Probably not. 

[00:11:34] Dacher Keltner: No. You know, what really strikes me is — when I was writing The Power Paradox, I was like, you know, we made these discoveries and like you nicely alluded to Jordan the same kind of ideas, like engaging advanced of others also works in the military's highly structured context. And those individuals who really engage with others who rise in the military ranks, work in school playgrounds, work in finance firms. So it is this general principle. I think that the way that it evolves and changes is really depending on the particulars of the social context. I do a lot of consulting on Facebook and there is engaging in the interest of others has to do with writing good code and building complex teams that do good work, but you're still at the core at a general level advancing the interests of others is a way to get power.

[00:12:24] Jordan Harbinger: Facebook is probably a really good example of that. And you probably can't talk about your work there, but I would imagine it has to do with, okay. We want to make this as useful as possible to humanity because the more useful it is, the more people use it...profit, right? That should not come as a surprise to anybody. 

[00:12:38] Dacher Keltner: It should not. 

[00:12:40] Jordan Harbinger: Their mission is to suck us in by giving us valuable things to use do and see.

[00:12:44] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:12:45] Jordan Harbinger: But in societal groups, what tools do we have that maintain or regulate power? In the book, you mentioned reputation and gossip and things like that. 

[00:12:52] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. So, you know, it's so striking. And very often when we think about problematic forms of power, we kind of demonize the leaders. We think about mad men, you know, ruining the world. And that in part is true. You know, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, were no doubt, crazy individuals, but we also have to think carefully about social systems and the social context. And you will have really strong forms of power that are good for broad collectives, if you have ways, forms of accountability, right? So the economic collapse, 2008, that Michael Lewis sort of charted, critical to that was all systems of accountability were— 

[00:13:31] Jordan Harbinger: Out the window. 

[00:13:31] Dacher Keltner: —out the window. And then they sold whatever they sold. You have to have systems of scrutiny, and this is why journalism is so important. And it's so fascinating, you know, we think about the bias of journalism in the light. US journalism is pretty robust. It does provide critiques of power and that form of scrutiny, social psychological studies find. If I know I'm being scrutinized by shareholders or journalism, I won't abuse my power really. Just as important, it's so fascinating, is art and satire just forms of public representation that call into question the status quo. 

[00:14:08] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:14:08] Dacher Keltner: That rock and roll, protest music. Jon Stewart, right? 

[00:14:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:14:13] Dacher Keltner: Jon Stewart the most important political analyst. People are begging for him to come back today, even though he's tongue in cheek and he's carrying on the great tradition of satire. It dates back to Jonathan Swift and before, but because it's a way of making people very aware of the abuses of power. So when you have those systems in place and concerns over your reputation, forms of accountability, satire and scrutiny will have good forms of power, but when those start to be regulated or taken away, then all hell can break loose. 

[00:14:45] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Dacher Keltner. We'll be right back. 

[00:14:50] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. The idea that your problems aren't bad enough to seek therapy is actually one of the most common mental health myths. I used to fall prey to this myself. I was like many people I believe like, "Hey, my challenge is I can handle this without outside help. I'm not crazy. I don't have a disorder or anything like that. I don't need to go to therapy." The reality is that virtually everyone can benefit from therapy. I'm a fan of just the most sane people should go, just to make sure that they're still sane throughout all of life's hurdles. Plus a lot of times you go and you go, "Well, there's this little thing that's been bugging me." And then you pull on that thread and you don't realize how much that was stuck in your cross. So regardless of how serious you think the problems are, a professional can help you sort through many of the curve balls. That life sends your way and Better Help is a great way to do that. They're in all 50 states. They're in pretty much every time zone, no more waiting rooms, no more driving, no more parking. Do it right from your phone. 

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[00:16:58] Jordan Harbinger: Now back to Dacher Keltner on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:17:03] We see this with totalitarian societies and regimes and things like that. I've been to countries like North Korea a few times. 

[00:17:08] Dacher Keltner: Really? 

[00:17:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It may interest you/terrify you or probably both, but what you see there is information strictly limited. What people are allowed to say is strictly limited, even comedies, speaking of, it's never about politics, but it's governed by — there's a body that says this is funny and you, this is stuff you can use, and things like that. And people are instructed to constantly be on the lookout for things that are not in accordance with what they want broadcasted. And so this has evolved in this weird way. 

[00:17:37] Dacher Keltner: Right. 

[00:17:37] Jordan Harbinger: This was Stalin's idea. 

[00:17:38] Dacher Keltner: Exactly. 

[00:17:39] Jordan Harbinger: No freedom of the press. Those guys can only cause us trouble. We want one narrative.

[00:17:43] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:17:43] Jordan Harbinger: And what happened was that one narrative was supposed to advance the brotherly communist, whatever, but instead it went, "Well crap, if there's only one voice and we control it, why are we obeying any rules?" And then that went to heck the next 50-plus years. 

[00:17:56] Dacher Keltner: That's fascinating. 

[00:17:57] Jordan Harbinger: Derailed everything. And now we have North Korea slash what happened at Soviet Union. 

[00:18:01] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:18:02] Jordan Harbinger: People are probably saying, "What the heck does this have to do with social science? How can I use this?" But if we look at things like our own reputation and as gossip as instruments used to regulate, or to give us or take away power, you start to be more careful with one who you gossip about and two, your own reputation quite a bit, 

[00:18:19] Dacher Keltner: I love your rift by the way, on sort of totalitarian regimes and I'll get to gospel in a second. You know, it was striking. I read a bunch of histories of dictators and thinking about this book and the abuse has a power in particular. And Jordan, you so nicely illustrated, but I was astonished like Hitler was obsessed  with art and he was a sort of an artist, but he had to control all the art and the shows just like Stalin, because he didn't want the critiques of his political status quo. But you know, most important in our day-to-day lives in terms of how social systems give power to the right people who advance the interests of the group is, as you said, through sort of distributing information about a person's reputation and in particular, through gossip. And, you know, I got into a little bit of trouble with this research. We started to do these studies, you know, we studied for example, a sorority and sort of privately— 

[00:19:11] Jordan Harbinger: Speaking of gossip, right? 

[00:19:14] Dacher Keltner: You always want to go to the expert. Or like, who do they gossip about? And it really kind of surprised us, which is that, you know, we interviewed them privately. "Hey, who do you kind of tell funny stories about?" I kind of gave it a friendly spin on it." And it wasn't what you might stereotypically think they weren't gossiping about women who drank too much or had, you know, open sexual lives. They were really gossiping about women who are Machiavellian and who are going to take down other people in the group. I thought it would be moral, sex and drugs, but it was really about ethics like, "Is this person kind to others? Do they speak in a civil way? Are they nasty and backstab? 

[00:19:55] Jordan Harbinger: Fake. 

[00:19:55] Dacher Keltner: All the gossip, all the gossip just zeroed in on those couple of individuals. It constrained their power and influence. It tagged them in saying like, "Watch out—? 

[00:20:05] Jordan Harbinger: Watch out for this person. 

[00:20:07] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And then we started to do these studies and that showed like, if you take a social group and you allow them to give money to a public good which is a standard thing that we do when we're part of a community like contribute to the public good, people start to cheat on that. But if you allow the group members to gossip about each other, they are very good citizens and give a lot. So reputation really helps us avoid the abuses. 

[00:20:31] Jordan Harbinger: So gossip and reputation are kind of the plus, minus of keeping our behavior in line with the group, the interest of the group.

[00:20:38] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, exactly. That it can go too far, you know, seventh grade girls gossip too much. And you know, we have to be worried about that, but in general, it's a very good counterbalance to the abuses of power. 

[00:20:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so this isn't just a vice because a lot of people, myself included, would think gossip and talking about other people, surely a vice, never anything good coming from it, stop doing it, bad habit and get over it. But actually it's something that we've probably evolved over, however, many thousands of thousands of years. 

[00:21:06] Dacher Keltner: It's as universal part to our human behavior as eating food and having sex. We all gossip, people who are worried about it can take heart. In the fact, Thomas Jefferson collected acts of political gossip and tracked it during his day because he knew it had important social information in it.

[00:21:23] Jordan Harbinger: So on the flip side of power, we've got powerlessness. 

[00:21:26] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:21:27] Jordan Harbinger: Tell me about powerlessness, help us understand why this is a bad thing, because for people who have power, powerlessness is not something you think about. 

[00:21:34] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, it began when I was writing The Power Paradox. You know, when you write a book, you search for like, "Why am I writing this book?" It begins when I was a kid and my mom and dad moved. My mom got her PhD at UCLA. We were in Laurel Canyon, which is kind of trendy and cool place. And then we moved to the foothills of the Sierras and I was 10 years old and we moved to the poorest town in the poorest county at the time in California. You know, it's something that no parent in their right mind would do. 

[00:22:08] Jordan Harbinger: What was the idea behind that? 

[00:22:08] Dacher Keltner: Because it was like 1970 and it was a rural experiment. We had a old Victorian and five acres of you couldn't grow anything on that then. You know, it was so interesting, as a 10 year old kid and it was great. My brother and I ran around like Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer. And we had a pond, we fished, and we lived on this rural road. When I was writing The Power Paradox, I was thinking about that neighborhood. And these people, the men often round at work, women didn't work. They're very poor. Schools were just terrible. Some of my friends ended up in prison. No one went to college.

[00:22:42] And as I walked down the street, I just started thinking about like each house had somebody in this context of powerlessness who was dying young, literally. Like next door neighbor at the top of the road with some guy died pretty early, his son — you know, he just fell in our backyard. He broke his arm. And when we saw him break, now we know from science, that's called child frailty syndrome, which is when your bones start decaying prematurely. Going down a couple streets, my best friend's sister had leukemia. His dad got cancer. Heart attacks are really — people dying young. And I didn't really think about it until the science of powerlessness started getting off the ground.

[00:23:20] And the first discovery was twofold. If you don't feel powerful, if you don't have a voice at work, if you feel muted in your family, if you feel powerless in marriage, if you feel powerless or stigmatized in society, you are chronically stressed out. Biologically, your fight or flight system with cortisol revving up your body as if it's taken on a predator. It's supercharged, that's finding one. And then we now know if I have 20 or 30 years, 40 years of just feeling like I'm being defending myself. 

[00:23:53] Jordan Harbinger: Like drowning? 

[00:23:53] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Drowning, your body starts to prematurely die. Your cells wither. You have cardiovascular problems. Your veins clog up and your stomach lining is damaged. Your brain cells start to die. So this science that not a lot of people know about is very relevant today was telling us, the central health problem in the United States is the people who feel disenfranchised in our society, that they don't have a voice. 

[00:24:19] There's this new finding very relevant to today's political world. One of the only groups in the industrialized world to die younger than their parents are poor white people in the United States. 

[00:24:31] Jordan Harbinger: Really? 

[00:24:32] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, they are dying younger than their parents. Everybody else lives longer because they feel powerless. They feel like this political establishment doesn't hear me. I'm making less money than my dad made. My kids are screwing up. You know, in some sense it was the real deep reason why I wrote the book. 

[00:24:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes, I mean, that's surprising data, especially because you don't think powerlessness can kill you. You're just like, "Oh, you know, you have a lower standard of living than other people, but you can be fine. You don't need to have a three-story house with a pool. They'll survive, right? 

[00:25:03] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:25:03] Jordan Harbinger: But actually you won't. 

[00:25:04] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:25:05] Jordan Harbinger: Not because of the pool but danger feelings of powerlessness. That's actually really, really terrible. All jokes aside, it's really awful because the fact that powerlessness can cause chronic disease is a new discovery. 

[00:25:16] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, it is. And it's so stunning, Jordan, you know, Nancy Adler that UC San Francisco, one of the first papers on this thing, you know, if you rank people on a 10-point scale, this finding that being lower rank hurts your physical health applies at all tiers of the scale. So if I'm seven and I'm doing pretty well but my friend is an eight. We go to the same doctor. We eat the same food. We exercise in the same way he lives longer than I do. Unbelievable because he's feeling a little bit more agentic and powerful. 

[00:25:48] Jordan Harbinger: Is this just subjective then? 

[00:25:50] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:25:50] Jordan Harbinger: Because if it is well, since it is, how do we start to feel more powerful because your life literally depends on it? It's not just your self-esteem or meeting someone of the opposite sex or the same sex to start a family with. It's not attraction based. This is, "Hey, you should do this because you'll die early if you don't. That's a good reason. 

[00:26:07] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Well, you know, we're just starting to learn. And one thing we do know — let's take the management context where we know this, we have more better data on this, which is if you're running an organization and some of the people, you're in a position of power and you're going to benefit health wise. And then there are people who are potentially at risk because of feeling disengaged or disempowered. We now know that those leaders who have the style that you described earlier, like they check in on people, they listen carefully, they send the notes, they express gratitude, their colleagues that they're managing have better health profiles. Just so I think, these older ethics like respect, dignity, as well as letting people have a voice and speaking up are some of the pathways to agency and power independent of, "Are you a CEO or not? Are you famous or not?" It's the psychological empowerment that really matter. 

[00:27:04] Jordan Harbinger: What if we find ourselves disempowered, what can we do about it ourselves? Is it about finding a new environment? "Hey, look, my job's not only stressing me out. It's literally killing me as I've learned from this video or the show. How do I fix that?" I mean, is it about unplugging from what's causing the stress. 

[00:27:19] Dacher Keltner: It is so interesting. I've taught leaders at Berkeley for 20 years, you know, leaders in science and technology, Facebook, and government, and the like, people have experienced this dynamic of powerlessness, viscerally. We all have. I've had periods where I'm feeling like I'm being dominated by somebody and it keeps me up. My heart feels like it's racing. And that's bad for the body. And I think that there are things you can do to take steps towards bullies or dominators, you know, you can call them out. You can make them aware of their reputation. You can gossip about them. You can be formal and saying, you can't do this behavior, right? If the guy, most typically guy, is incorrigible,  you pull out where he's at. 

[00:27:57] Jordan Harbinger: We can use reputation and gossip, like. Medicine. 

[00:28:00] Dacher Keltner: Definitely. 

[00:28:01] Jordan Harbinger: Like, all right, well, if you're going to be that way, I'm going to make sure everybody knows about it.

[00:28:05] Dacher Keltner: Here's the email I'm sending out. 

[00:28:07] Jordan Harbinger: It's like Yelp for people. This guy, just so you know— 

[00:28:11] Dacher Keltner: Those are happening. 

[00:28:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh yeah. And rightfully so some of the time anyway. Totally makes sense. It's so funny how you can use these as tools now. 

[00:28:20] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:28:20] Jordan Harbinger: Now, we see the need for it anyway. 

[00:28:22] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:23] Jordan Harbinger: Well, what's the relationship between power and status and control and social class and all those things? Because I feel like you can kind of lump all those together, but you might not be totally right. 

[00:28:33] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. And you know, this is why we do science. When people use language, we say, "Hey, that guy's powerful," or, "She's really powerful." And we might be meaning many different things. We might call the new Pope powerful, right? 

[00:28:45] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:28:46] Dacher Keltner: We might call somebody on a baseball field or celebrity powerful. And I think with science is really useful for doing is pulling apart concepts. Class is your wealth education and the prestige of your work, but it explains about 20 percent of your power, right? 30 percent. But that's not that much. So you can be very wealthy and not do anything in the world. 

[00:29:07] Jordan Harbinger: There are plenty of people doing that. They're right around here, definitely. 

[00:29:11] Dacher Keltner: And we can all think of examples. Like I guys got a ton of money and he hasn't done anything. 

[00:29:15] Jordan Harbinger: Never worked a day in his life. 

[00:29:17] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And by the way, you cannot have money and change the world profoundly and have a lot of power and it's all around. Then you pull apart control and control very often goes with power, but you can have a lot of control over your life and have no power or influence whatsoever. So I always think like a hermit who lives in a cave in North Africa. It has total control and there's no power. They're not doing anything. And then most trickily, status and how we think about status is status is the esteem that you enjoy in other people's eyes. 

[00:29:54] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Oh, that's so close to power though, right? 

[00:29:57] Dacher Keltner: It is but you can separate them. Right. So, you know, it's interesting, like there are finance here and you could even think about Donald Trump as having a certain amount of power, but very low status. People think he's— 

[00:30:11] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's a good point. 

[00:30:12] Dacher Keltner: They have a very negative opinion. And you can think about a lot of examples of people. Who have a lot of power, but aren't respected. And if you think about people who are respected, but don't have a lot of power. So we got to pull them apart. 

[00:30:23] Jordan Harbinger: This is like an equalizer on a stereo. There's a lot of little sliders here, but they all do different things. 

[00:30:28] Dacher Keltner: And equalizer is the great metaphor, because I think it's so interesting how we do a lot of things in our social behavior and our social communities. They give status to people. We give them awards, we act deferentially around them. We treat them with respect. We call them out in a public meeting, and those are all ways in which we give status to people for prosocial things that are the basis of power. 

[00:30:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So we're thereby regulating again, the behavior geared towards the interest of the group by conferring status, conferring power on people that behave the way that the collective we want them to do.

[00:31:03] Dacher Keltner: Yeah, exactly. It's stunning how powerful this motive for status and esteem is. You know, when you think about the world of philanthropy, a lot of people give away a lot of money, right? 

[00:31:15] Jordan Harbinger: Right. 

[00:31:16] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. To like be respected. And that's a good thing. In many ways. 

[00:31:22] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Dacher Keltner. We'll be right back. 

[00:31:26] This episode is sponsored in part by Pretty Litter. Everything I do for our hairless cats, Mickey and Moms, is rooted in love, even when they're testing my patience/scratching me or my clothes or everything else in the house. Love is letting Micks sleep in my lap when I really need to pee. Love is accepting that my furniture will never be claw proof. And love is opening the door to let my cats in and out a million times a day. Love is letting Momo scratch up my acoustic panels and my microphone foam. Uh, I do draw the line there, actually. Love is also keeping tabs on the cat's health because nothing is more important than their health and wellbeing. And that's why we use Pretty Litter. This is actually pretty amazing. It's the best litter for your cat. Of course, the crystals last you'd have to scoop all the time, but it changes colors to help detect early signs of potential illness, including urinary tract infections and kidney issues. Cats, obviously, can't clearly express pain. They're like toddlers in that way. It might even Jayden can point to his mouth when his teeth hurt, but the cats, they can be suffering in silence. So if you've ever had a UTI, you know how painful that can be. Kidney disease is especially common in middle age to older cats. You know we want to know what's going on with them. And the litter changes color when they pee on it, kind of a clever idea. 

[00:32:32] Jen Harbinger: Love is putting your cat's health first with Pretty Litter. Do what I did and make the switch today by visiting prettylitter.com and use promo code Jordan for 20 percent off your first order. That's prettylitter.com, promo code Jordan for 20 percent off. Prettylitter.com  promo code Jordan.

[00:32:47] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Quip. Fill in the blank, brush, floss, then _____. If you didn't say rents, you may not be getting a complete clean. Mouthwash is a key part of your whole mouth health, because it gets between the teeth to kill bad breath germs and help strengthen enamel. Luckily, the oral care experts in Quip created a super simple way to make mouthwash part of your daily oral care routine. You know, Quip, the makers of the electric toothbrush and floss you hear about all the time, especially on podcasts. Well, they've got a new mouthwash to help you complete your clean. Quip's refillable mouthwash is good for your mouth and the planet. 4X concentrated formula, so it ships less water, more of the good for you stuff in there. Each eco-friendly refill replaces a big bulky, you know, giant drugstore bottle of mouthwash from those other brands. So you dilute it yourself with the water and the refill bottles are made from a hundred percent recyclable plastic, which is, I think we can all get behind that these days. 

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[00:33:58] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Hyundai. Hyundai questioned everything to create the best Tucson ever. Every inch of the all-new Tucson has been completely re-imagined resulting in an SUV loaded with available innovations inside and out from design to technology to safety. Every aspect of the new Tucson has been improved upon. Hyundai's digital key allows you to transform your smartphone into a spare key. And if you're a geriatric like me and forget where your keys are all the time, it's just one less thing to remember. LED daytime running lights are stylishly hidden within the cascading front grill, making them invisible when not in use. Set multiple user profiles, so if you share your car like I do with somebody who's a foot shorter, I love that I can hop in and have the seat, mirrors, climate control, radio presets, all personalized for me. And they're 10.25-inch full touch infotainment screen. I know that — I love how every car has to have a freaking giant computer in it now. I've got a blind spot view monitor in there. The SUV has been completely redesigned inside and out to create the best Tucson ever. Learn more@hyundai.com. 

[00:34:54] Thanks so much for listening to this show. It means the world to me. I love hearing from you online. I love it when you write to me, even when you have suggestions, that might not always agree with me. But what I really love is when you support those who support us, those sponsor links, all those codes I give you — look, I do need you to buy a mattress from time to time. I'm not going to lie, but we put them all in one place. Go to jordanharbinger.com/deals. You don't have to remember any codes or write anything down. And I know you're jogging, driving, bench pressing. We put them all on the jordanharbinger.com/deals page. So please do consider supporting those who support this show. 

[00:35:27] And don't forget, we've got worksheets for many episodes of the show. If you want some of the drills, exercises, and main takeaways talked about during these podcasts, those are all in one easy place. The link to the worksheets is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast.

[00:35:41] Now for the conclusion of our episode with Dacher Keltner. 

[00:35:46] I wondered why people do that for so long, like why are rich people, then suddenly turning around and organizing all these events and charities and things like that. And I realized, especially if you earn your money in a way that is either not that respectful — and this is not a general statement, but I've noticed that some of the people that I know who are wealthy, but earned their money, doing things like online gambling, they often turn around and they're like, "All right, this is an animal charity. And we got the veteran charity, and then we got this other kid's charity." And I'm thinking, "Why are you so obsessed with this?" And the reason is they probably feel like crap because everyone goes, "That's the guy who — yeah, he's got a nice car, but don't respect him. He made all his money, ripping people off with porn sites or online gambling and stuff like that." So they go, "Well, look at all these other nice things I'm doing." And it's like, "Okay, all right, here's a little bit of respect." 

[00:36:31] Dacher Keltner: It is. And a lot of people feel cynical about that, but I'm all for forms of altruism and philanthropy that advance the welfare of others, no matter what the motivation.

[00:36:43] Jordan Harbinger: No, it was just something that I'd noticed now that floats around in some of those circles. I always wondered, "Why would you want to give it all away?" Or, "If you want to give it all away, do it quietly. I mean, what's the difference?" "No, no, no, no. This has to be a frigging production. We need this to make up for 20 years of investment banking or whatever it was."

[00:37:00] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:37:00] Jordan Harbinger: And speaking of altruism, what was competitive altruism? You brought that up earlier. That was interesting.  

[00:37:05] Dacher Keltner: Competitive altruism is exactly this dynamic we've been talking about, Jordan, which economists started to notice how — you know, from a pure self-interested perspective, you shouldn't really share that much. You shouldn't give away your own resources. And people do it prolifically. And you think about all the billionaires are giving away 50 to 95 percent of their wealth. That doesn't make sense from a rational economic perspective. And so they came up with this idea of competitive altruism, which is, they say, there is this motive of being esteemed by others. And neuroscience studies show like the people close to me if they respect me that is powerful, activating reward circuits in my brain as anything. And so that motive of being respected drives a lot of selfless behavior. You know, over at UC Berkeley, you look at — there's a philanthropy wall and all the names, and this happens everywhere.

[00:37:59] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. 

[00:38:00] Dacher Keltner: And they love seeing their names being— 

[00:38:04] Jordan Harbinger: Just seven feet above where I can see without a ladder. That's you up there? 

[00:38:08] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And this traces back to hunter-gatherer societies where, you know, they're actually in most hunter-gatherer cultures, this is before money, before the written word, this is thousands of years ago, they would save food for a long time and they'd have these big festivals. Whoever gave away the most food was kind of the highest status woman or man. They had respect from their peers, a few more sexual opportunities. So status is this powerful equalizer of power. 

[00:38:36] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense just biologically speaking, right? Look, we want to incentivize saving. 

[00:38:40] Dacher Keltner: Exactly. 

[00:38:41] Jordan Harbinger: So how do we do that? We give you status. 

[00:38:43] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And then when it tells us, you know, and it's a part of what we've been talking about, which is that if you want power to work well in your society, you really have to esteem the right things. And once you start esteeming other things, people stop being generous and you get more rampant— 

[00:39:00] Jordan Harbinger: You ended up with disincentive or poor incentives, misaligned incentives. 

[00:39:04] Dacher Keltner: Right. That's right. 

[00:39:05] Jordan Harbinger: What about empathy? Where does that fall into this whole melting pot? 

[00:39:09] Dacher Keltner: Well, I think it's in a way you're so right to zero in on it. I think it's the magic ingredient of good power. I was blown away, I was reading Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals and it's about Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln is rated by most historians as our best president, right? 

[00:39:28] Jordan Harbinger: Really? 

[00:39:28] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:39:28] Jordan Harbinger: I didn't know that. 

[00:39:29] Dacher Keltner: Top three or four, usually top one or two with FDR. First of all, he's a very unlikely president in some sense, he has poor, tall, awkward, funny clothes. So he was not supposed to win the Republican nomination. And then you navigate it through slavery and the most serious moral issue of our history. And a lot of people have sort of thought about what was it about Lincoln that was so — how did he do that? And it really was empathy. And I'll just quote to you, Thurlow Weed, who was this journalist who was actually a strategist for an opponent of Lincoln, was like, "What is it about this awkward looking tall, poor guy? Why is he doing so well politically?" And he said, "Lincoln sees all who come to him. He hears all they have to say. And he reads everything that's written. And he was a genius." 

[00:40:19] Jordan Harbinger: He didn't have email, that's why. 

[00:40:23] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. What would the digital Lincoln would have been like? 

[00:40:25] Jordan Harbinger: I read almost everything when it comes to me. 

[00:40:29] Dacher Keltner: Or you would have had a different kind of email, right?

[00:40:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. 

[00:40:31] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. But the point being is it's back to what we talked about earlier. Like he just was engaged and knew where people were coming from. And what we find in our studies is, you know, if you're empathetic, if you know where people are coming from, if you keep track of their emotions, you're going to rise in power, wherever you go, but regrettably feeling powerful, kind of diminishes your empathic ability. So that's the paradox of power. 

[00:40:55] Jordan Harbinger: So this power paradox that diminishes our ability to have empathy and by whatever mechanisms, which is detailed in the book, by the way. So not that we don't know it, but it seems less how it happens more important that it happens in general. Why do we need to transcend that as a society or as a civilization in order to succeed? 

[00:41:15] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, thanks for asking that question. So the studies of the power paradox, the other second part to the equation of like, "Wow, power leads to these abuses." Fine. That if you give any human being a little bit of power, they eat more of the food in a social group. They. I'm more likely to shoplift. I mean, our research finds people who drive really fancy cars drive through pedestrian zones. 

[00:41:43] Jordan Harbinger: Guilty! I didn't have a fancy car. And I know I still caught myself doing that. Like, "Well, if you're going to cross slow, I'm just going to go."

[00:41:50] Dacher Keltner: Now, I'm aware of you, man. I'll be tracking you. 

[00:41:53] Jordan Harbinger: No need. Reputation is already tanked.

[00:41:55] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. But it gets worse. You know, they are more likely to have sexual affairs, sexual harassment I don't think it takes a leap of the imagination to say, if you look at a lot of the spectacularly greedy behavior, you see Enron and people paying themselves tens of millions of dollars or their workers are making nine bucks an hour. And now we know the health costs of that. I do feel the abuses of power are the central challenge of civilizations. And that's why we have to transcend them. 

[00:42:21] Jordan Harbinger: It's so much more severe when you see the data. And when you see people dying because of feelings of powerlessness, things that should be maybe not easily corrected, but are definitely solvable with our current level of technology and advances. One thing I saw that I couldn't believe in the book was that. The group most likely to shoplift was wealthy white people. And I was just like, that's wrong? Come on. 

[00:42:47] Dacher Keltner: You know, there's so many funny stereotypes about the wealthy and the poor. And so we published this paper in 2012 and got a lot of buzz like high power wealthy people are more likely to behave unethically. They lie in gambling games, they cheat in games. They take stuff that was meant for kids, literally candy that was meant for kids. So then we did this study where we positioned it as a pedestrian at a California crosswalk. And we just track like who abated the law and stop. And then who blaze through and for anybody who was driving a poor car, Plymouth Satellite, they stopped, all of them. And then 46 percent of the people driving the Range Rovers and the like cut through. And it started getting out there and people were like, "Whoa, the wealthy are kind of violating the laws." And this is replicated in a lot of places. We started getting all these emails of people. And one came from this guy who was like, "You're not going to believe this is a team of medical doctors. And they were interested in shoplifting." Shoplifting costs the US economy, 10 to $15 billion. 

[00:43:48] Jordan Harbinger: That's so much. 

[00:43:48] Dacher Keltner: It's a lot. 

[00:43:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's crazy. 

[00:43:49] Dacher Keltner: It's ridiculous. They did a nationally representative sample. So it is like a very— 

[00:43:54] Jordan Harbinger: Exhaustive, right? 

[00:43:55] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. 

[00:43:55] Jordan Harbinger: This isn't just like people in San Francisco, wealthy and white. 

[00:43:59] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. This is the real thing. And you look at the tables and there it is, man, like, wealthy white people are more likely to shoplift. I was blown away. 

[00:44:07] Jordan Harbinger: That is mind blowing. 

[00:44:08] Dacher Keltner: And then you add that to like, "But if you're an African-American young guy going into a store, you are going to get checked out. 

[00:44:13] Jordan Harbinger: Everyone will assume you are going to, I mean, not that you are going to, but the whole of society would more likely assume that you would be a thief versus Winona Ryder who actually was a thief. 

[00:44:25] Dacher Keltner: A good looking one. 

[00:44:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Right. That's crazy. 

[00:44:28] Dacher Keltner: It is crazy. 

[00:44:29] Jordan Harbinger: That's unbelievable. But it makes sense in the context of what we've learned today, for sure. 

[00:44:35] Dacher Keltner: Yeah. And, you know, I think that's part of the — I think the encouraging message or the power paradox and you're getting at it by transcending these problematic tendencies, which is we're all vulnerable to this, you know, and I think all of your listeners, they will have a lot of times in their life where they feel like, "Yeah, I'm on the top of my game. Look at me, I'm with my friends. I've just done well at work." And that's when we're most vulnerable, right? To offending somebody or treating somebody with disrespect or acting unethically. It's just an important reminder. 

[00:45:02] Jordan Harbinger: Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to make sure you bring home for us? 

[00:45:06] Dacher Keltner: You've nailed it. You've covered the entire 20 years of my career. 

[00:45:10] Jordan Harbinger: Well, good, in approximately 40 minutes, I think. I haven't checked the clock, but thank you so much. 

[00:45:15] Dacher Keltner: It's been a pleasure, Jordan, a great conversation.

[00:45:19] Jordan Harbinger: As usual, I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before I get into that, here's a preview with a former undercover FBI agent who infiltrated the Gambino crime family in New York for nearly three years, resulting in the arrest and conviction of 35 mobsters. And get this, he's not even Italian. Here's a bite.

[00:45:38] Jack Garcia: Jordan, I've done everything. I mean, I have posed as a money launderer, I've worked as a drug dealer. I have worked as a transporter for drug deals. I worked as a warehouse guy, the whole gamut. My career was 24 out of 26 years was solely dedicated to working undercover. If I wasn't working for the FBI, I would have been invested by the FBI. 

[00:46:01] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:46:02] Jack Garcia: I walked in, I'm in the bar. Now, there's a bar mate there, good looking young lady. She's serving me. "What would you like?" Usually, my drink was "Give me a Ketel One Martini with three olives, a glass of water on the side." I finished the drink. The guys come in. I'm going to go, go in my pocket, take out the big wad of money, the knot with the rubber band on it. Bam! I'll give her a hundred dollars. You're not a guy who takes out a little leather wallet and he's going to change, or he's doing that. 

[00:46:31] Can you imagine four gangsters sitting around going, "Let's split it up. I had the soup at the sandwich and French fries." "Well, what about the tip?" Sometimes, we get into bidding war. That goes, "Hey, your money's no good here." "What are you doing?" "You're embarrassing me over here." "What do you mean you paid a lot?" "Let me get this. Forget about it." "You pay for it." 

[00:46:48] If I would have gone in there and became a guy who had never a penny, never went into his wallet, and never picked up the tab, never had a dime, never kicked up money, never gave tribute payments, I'd be on my ass. They'll throw me out. If you're with the mob, I say, "Hey, Jordan. You're on record with us." That means we protect you. Nobody could shake it down. We could shake you down, or you're on record with us. 

[00:47:13] Jordan Harbinger: For more including tricks wise guys used to know who's legit and who's not mob culture and the rules that govern the always upward flow of money and how Jack became so trusted by the highest levels of the organization that they offered him the chance to become a made man, check out episode 392 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Jack Garcia. 

[00:47:35] Interesting stuff as usual. I've really enjoyed my conversation here with Dacher. I've really had no idea that power was related to lifespan. I would never have seen that coming. A lot of surprises in this one. And I do think that yes, of course, we've all heard — absolute power corrupts absolutely. But it's not really a problem that you think about affecting the entire society. We think about infecting or affecting certain individuals who kind of go uncheck, but you never really think about it affecting society at whole. Certainly, never think about it infecting your psyche in a way that's unhealthy for everyone around you. So certainly a lot to think about here and to apply it. I always find these little gems of social psychology, really this is kind of like the next frontier of engineering a country that we all want to live in. It really is. Although I do think things can go too far, but now we're diving into politics.

[00:48:23] Big, thank you to Dacher Keltner, his book, The Power Paradox will be linked in the show notes. Links to all that stuff always in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Please use our website links if you buy books from us. It does help support the show. Our booklist, jordanharbinger.com/books is where you can find that. Worksheets for the episode or in the show notes. Transcripts for the episode in the show notes. We also have a brand new clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show, or just highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else. jordanharbinger.com/clips is where you can find that channel. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. 

[00:49:00] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same software, systems, and tiny habits that I use. That's our Six-Minute Networking course. The course is free. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig that well before you get thirsty folks. Trust me on that one. I've learned that one the hard way. And I also saw it working in action and saving my bacon numerous times. So I can't recommend it enough. jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:49:25] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends and you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's interested in power, social psychology, the economics of poverty, all that stuff has a place here, please do share this episode with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of this show, please do share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and leave everything and everyone better than you found them. 

[00:50:03] And special thanks to Hyundai for sponsoring this episode.