428: Jenny Radcliffe | Cat Burglar for Hire

Transcript for Jenny Radcliffe | Cat Burglar for Hire (Episode 428)

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[00:00:06] Coming up on The Jordan Harbinger Show, 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:00:10] It had dreams and things about lions as in the big feline. And I said, you know, I really want to go and see if the lion in this zoo — I sort of wondered if it had like a giant lion hutch. But we got into the zoo, no alarms, no security guards. And I had a Sesame Street torch, a little Sesame Street torch, and I was shining it, looking for the lion. But the cage was more like a chicken wire and its face was right there and I was right by the cage. So I could smell its breath. Its breath smells like chicken soup. The fence bent and it just was terrifying. And we ran and I kind of liked it. And then after that, it was like, well, where else can we go?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:50] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists, even the occasional arms dealer. Each show turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.

[00:01:13] Today, well, a little something off the beat, although I find myself saying that a lot, but hey, change is good. Today, my friend, Jenny Radcliffe. She's a burglar for hire more or less. She's a professional con-artist — but not really — an expert in non-verbal communication, deception, persuasion techniques. She really is an ethical con-artist and ethical social engineer — a people hacker hired to smash security measures. She uses psychology, con-artistry, subliminal linguistics, cunning, and guile. She spent a lifetime learning how to use the human element to gain access to buildings, data, and information. She's led simulated criminal attacks on businesses of all types and sizes, running teams to help secure client sites and information from malicious attacks. She's really been a pro at breaking and entering of all kinds. And I have a feeling this is just going to be one of many with her because I've known her for a while and she is a fascinating character

[00:02:05] If you're wondering how I've got all these weirdos in my network, it's because my network is huge. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. That's our free course about networking. There's no money involved whatsoever. And most of the guests you hear on the show, they subscribed to the course and the newsletter, and they've contributed to the course itself. Come join us, you'll be in smart company. All right, here we go with Jenny Radcliffe.

[00:02:32] Jen, your life started as quite the extraordinary tale. You said you grew up on the streets of Liverpool in the 1980s. Is Liverpool the Detroit of the UK? What am I supposed to understand from that? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:02:41] So Liverpool is a famous city. It's famous for soccer —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:46] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:02:46] — or football, if you want to use the correct term and the Beatles that used to be it. And then when I was a kid, It was a city kind of on its knees. There was a lot of crime and unemployment. So yeah, I guess, at the time you would've said that, not a lot to do, very politicized city, very rebellious city. And there just weren't a lot of opportunities really. And now, it's fabulous. There's so much going on Liverpool now, but at the time, yeah, it was pretty downtrodden, I guess. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:14] It seems like a lot of UK cities are like — that people that I know in the UK, they're like, "Yeah, I live in a cold town or I live in a manufacturing town. It almost seems like you all had the same type of environment as the Midwest United States, outside of London where it's like, "We make air conditioners here. We mine for coal here." And that's not doing so well in the global age of everything being made in China or Mexico. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:03:38] Yeah. We were at docks, so Liverpool was the docks, so we would be the type of cities that we would align with in the UK would be sort of Belfast, Glasgow, Newcastle, so tough people, working-class people. And it's the sort of place where you have to adapt to that life. There wasn't a lot of money. It makes me sound like a Monty Python. There's Monty Python sketches like we had it tough, but it was. It was that type of place. 

[00:04:03] One thing I always say is you shouldn't underestimate a kid with no money and a lot of time and a brain. That was the problem. We have those things in abundance. We were bored. We're quite smart as it turns out. Wouldn't have known it then. I'm going to have time in our hands. And so you get into mischief, right? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:23] Well, okay, I want to hear about that mischief, but also it seems like you were abducted as a child.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:04:29] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:29] And that was kind of a turning point. And I'm starting to think that maybe I should just have a general rule in the show because I find that most of the coolest people have been abducted a minimum of one time.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:04:39] Oh, really, okay. Well as a child, yes, I was playing out in the street with my friends. We were really little, seven or eight years old. And there was this neighbor who just said, "You guys must be thirsty.  Come in for a drink of orange juice." We went in and then my little friend left. And then this neighbor didn't let me go and didn't let me go for a long, long time. And this is like 1980, 81, a long time before some of the kind of mass share in of some of these terrible crimes, really. And everyone was kind of — like we went out to play in the streets, in the neighborhoods, first thing in the morning. And you came back at night when it started to go dark or dinner, but if you didn't come back, no one really cared. So I was gone for about nine or 10 hours —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:30] Oh wow.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:05:30] And I wasn't physically hurt, but it was a woman and she wouldn't let me go. She made me kind of — I mean, I hate saying this but I still feel very embarrassed kind of saying it really but she made me dance and she wants to let me stop. And I was only a really little kid. This is a grown adult. She was about 17, 18 years old and she just wouldn't — and what happened was. I got gradually more and more frightened. She wouldn't let me go to the bathroom. She wouldn't let me do anything. I got more and more frightened. There was something on her face and I've seen it since. I've seen it as an adult. I've seen it when I've tracked criminals and people that I've kind of interviewed that have turned out to be bad people. And I just knew I wasn't safe. I knew she was never going to let me go. And I just felt so small. 

[00:06:11] And so there was a knock at the door and my mom sort of did a few inquiries and knocked. And she said, "Is Jenny there? Her friend said that you were the last person that saw her." I was right by the door. And she put her hand over my mouth and she just said, "No, no, I've not seen her." And I knew in that moment if I didn't do something that she killed me. I mean, I just knew that she was going to really do me harm. So I got hold of a little finger and pulled it back, which I was taught later by a lot of my connections that that's a really powerful thing to do, but I just did it. 

[00:06:38] And I shouted at my mom. Mom grabbed me and let me go. But the thing is because it was the '70s, nothing was ever said. You know, the policeman, called —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:46] That's insane.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:06:47] I have friends who had sort of similar experiences with bad people as children shall we say, it just was never spoken about in the neighborhood. All I know was she moved out a few months later, the house was empty. No one knew that they'd gone, but I knew in that moment when there was the front door between me and my mom, I just thought if I get out of this, I'm never going to be that helpless again. I'm just not. I'm going to make sure — like, I remember thinking that little childhood brain, if I was a superhero, this wouldn't be an issue. And I'm going to — basically, if I live I'll be a superhero. 

[00:07:17] And I think it was just a huge turning point because after that my family let me hang out more with my extended family. Most of them were my cousins who were older lads who taught me a lot of sort of street smarts and things like that. And they never let me hang out with them before, but I think they realized I needed some help with the way I handled things. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:40] That's such a creepy event that this person was doing that. I mean, when you said 17, I was like, "Oh, she's like messing with you. And she's a little bit weird and like a bored teenager." But then when your mom comes over, you think she'd be like, "Yeah, she's right here. We were just playing. Here you go bye." If she puts her hand over your mouth, it's like, "Oh, I'm going to get chopped into little pieces." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:07:58] This grown out adult pushed me right against the wall. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:01] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:08:01] And I just knew she really didn't mean no harm. And of course, the fact that they left soon afterwards. Nothing was ever said, nothing was ever said. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:10] Are you sure nothing was said? Or did they just not tell you that your dad went over there and was like, "I'm going to break all of your limbs."

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:08:16] So I asked my mom often about it once or twice. And she says, "It was the '70s, it was a woman. I mean, you seem fine." And she said, "If we told your dad. He might have killed her. But I asked my brother, who's a lot older than me. My brother is 18 years older than me. I'm writing it down because I'm writing some memoirs and things for different projects. And he says, "Until I read this, I didn't even know." So even my brother didn't know, 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:40] That's mind-blowing as a parent of a one-year-old — 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:08:43] I know, right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:43] If I'd found out somebody in the neighborhood didn't let him go for even a couple of hours, I would not only get the police involved, but I'd be like — I'd tell my wife like, "Jen, you have to talk me down right now because I'm about to go and lose my absolute shit and destroy this person."

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:09:01] But this is the '70s. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:02] Unbelievable.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:09:02] You'll see social media posts about what it was like to be a kid in the '70s. And the fact that we never wore sunscreen and bicycle helmets and stuff. I always feel that it was enough, but it definitely solidified a determination in me to never be that helpless again, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:18] We left one of our neighbor kids alone with a neighbor guy to play video games. And my friend,  his older brother didn't want to leave him. Didn't want to leave him. Didn't want to leave him. Took him back a few minutes later. And then we found out that he had gone over there another time without anyone's permission and the guy molested him.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:09:36] See. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:37] Yeah. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:09:37] We had a case in the UK of a little toddler that was killed called Jamie Bulger, which is exactly where I grew up. But mom said like it wasn't as prevalent now that knowledge of how bad that could have turned out, just wasn't a thing. And they just didn't follow it up at all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:51] Oh God.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:09:52] I mean, I remember the next day, day after playing in the same place, seeing that person walking around, just thinking I'll avoid her.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:00] That is so beyond bizarre that she's clearly like mentally ill, well 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:10:05] I mean, there was violence. She hid me when she put her hands on my face. I remember being very, very frightened. It was a lucky escape and a lot less traumatic than a lot of people got. So I count myself lucky at that one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:19] So you're hanging out with your cousins and they're like these street kids who are — what are they doing? Because when I think street kids, I think spray painting things or I don't know, shoplifting candy. I don't know. I'm pretty amateur when it comes to street kid-nes.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:10:35] I mean, the main thing that we did was in the neighborhood — so I said the way Liverpool was there was a lot of empty buildings, empty factories, empty buildings at the docks and that type of thing. And what they did a lot of which is hung out in those buildings. So they'd be locked. There'll be some alarms sometimes. And they just get into the buildings and hang out in these buildings. I'm thinking about it now. We have barbecues and things in these abandoned warehouses and Liverpool, and the first time I ever really remember, and I tell the story a lot was I had dreams and things about lions. I was really little, I sort of had these dreams about lions.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:12] Lions?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:11:13] Lions.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:14] Okay.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:11:15] As in the big feline.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:16] Okay.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:11:17] And I really want to go to the and see if the lion in the zoo, which is in a seaside town really nearby — does he sleep at night ironically? You know, I'd say, I think I must've heard this one. I don't know, but I want to know if it was locked away. I'd like to just check. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:31] The lion.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:11:32] Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:33] So you weren't sure if the lion was locked up. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:11:35] I sort of wondered if it had like a giant lion hutch, like rabbits, or whether they let it move around. Well, it turns out they let it move around. But we got into the zoo, no alarms, no security guards. I mean, nothing just over the fence. They actually pushed me, sort of threw me over. I was really small. And they went and walked around the cell and just looked around. I mean, we weren't stealing anything or breaking anything. It was just a trespass, but it was a trespass. And I knew where this lion was. I'd be with my parents and I walked over to the cage and I had a Sesame Street torch, a little Sesame Street torch, and I was shining it, looking for the lion. I'd seen it a couple of weeks before with my parents. And it flew with the cage and the cage is like, really thin. I mean, this zoo was closed down for animal rights abuses not long after. It was a terrible place. And it ran and flung itself at the cage. And we all ran out, you know, screaming and laughing. And until we started to do things like that, and it didn't put me off. I mean, why would it put you off, really being chased by a lion. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:34] I mean when you say chase, did it sort of walk up to you, or was it like, "Oh, I'm going to eat you for lunch"? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:12:39] It was in a cage, but the cage is more or less chicken wire and it flung itself. I mean, I shined a torch and it was like I can't see anything, it's dark. And I moved to another inch. Its face was right there and I was right by the cage. I could smell its breath. Its breath smelled like chicken soup and I could smell its breath. And then it just pushed against this cage and that the fence bent, and it just was terrifying. And we run and my cousins are all laughing and —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:05] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:05] — everything. And I'm like far behind because I was so tiny, but it didn't put me off. I kind of liked it and so then it was the case —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:13] You got a little thrill? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:14] Well, I guess so. Because we got away right. I mean, that's the thing. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:18] Right, all is well, that ends well, I guess, when you're that age.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:20] And then after that, it was like, "Well, where else can we go?" So we've got to museums and spent the night in museums. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:26] Did everything come alive? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:27] No.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:27] That night. No?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:27] But when the film came out — you know, I feel this is horrible. This is so real to me, you know, like that was what we wanted to happen, but it didn't.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:35] Right. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:35] We spent one night. We got into a funeral parlor. We wanted to see the body. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:39] Oh, that's about as unexciting as it gets, but also really creepy. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:43] Well, it's that stand by me thing, you know, you're a teenager and you think you want to see a body you don't like, and we got that and it wasn't in a fridge or anything. It was just on the table. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:54] Well, it was probably already embalmed. Right? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:13:56] I don't know because I just remember we pulled this sheet and it was. We screamed the place down and then we ran — we snuck in and hid under a delivery hatch. And we couldn't get out. We're stuck there all night in the same room with the body. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:10] Serves you right, honestly. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:14:11] Yeah, because it's very disrespectful. Right? But you know, whatever. And it just went from there. I broke into — it became a badge of honor that we wouldn't pay you to get into festivals like Glastonbury and things like that. We'd always talked my way in. And then my cousins were older than me, and they started to work in the nightclubs and the bars and things in Liverpool. And they told me if I wanted to make some money, I could help. Now, obviously, I'm not going to be security. So one of the things they said was, "You can sell these tickets. It's for a special event at this bar and the tickets for $10." They'd say like, "You can keep five and we'll keep five. So what you have to do is go and sell the tickets." And it was like a VIP ticket, use this ticket on Friday and you get a drink, VIP access, whatever. And I sold loads of them. I sold about 300 of them. And then they said, "Oh, great! Gave her the money." They took their share, "Fine, just, don't go to that party though. It's a bit weird. You sell the tickets." I was like, "Fine." And then, of course, I did. I wanted to walk past and see.

[00:15:10] And I got to the bar. There's like a fight going on. There's huge amounts of people milling outside the bar. And of course, there's no VIP event. The tickets were just fake and I sold loads of them and it was just fake. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:22] Gosh. So you were kind of an unwilling participant? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:15:24] Well, it was that time. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:26] That time.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:15:27] Ant then they taught me a few cons. I'm, by the time, I was sort of 18, I was pulling cans all over the city. Nothing huge or nothing where, you know, there was kind of, I said nothing with direct contact, but nothing that I'd thought of myself. My cousins were like heroes to me. I loved them and I didn't expect that they were really doing anything that was dangerous or wrong.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:48] Like it didn't occur to you that that was wrong because your cousins were nice people in your mind. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:15:53] I think I knew it was at some level, but I didn't see that it was particularly harmful until — so they used to ask me to pick up packages. And then this one time I picked up this package. I've never spoken about this before, but I picked up this package. I have to pick it up at a bar and then take it across the city. This is all coming away from college, right? It was in university and dropped it off at another location. And when I'd put it on the floor, and sort of way to the guy,  there's the package, it clanked and it was metal. And at that point, I kind of thought, you know, this is probably actually criminal and I kind of stepped back from that at that point. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:29] Wow. Yeah. What do you think was in the package? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:16:32] I was a gun. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:33] Yeah, for sure, right? You kind of know, when something is — because there's just not that many things that are like that size, that weight, that are kind of sketchy. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:16:42] I mean, this is England, but I'd already been to a pistol club. That's still there probably in Liverpool, on our dock roads. And I'd felt it and I felt the power of it. And I hated it. I was really frightening to me and I knew what it sounded like. Like you said, there's nothing, that's got the same shape and clink it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:56] Right.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:16:57] It wasn't that everything came to view because I knew really at some level but at that point, I was kind of moving away from it all anyway. I was getting jobs of my own volition by then. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:07] What do they do now, your cousins? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:08] They're not around. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:09] Oh, I'm sorry. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:10] No, it's okay. I'm not saying how they're not around, but they're not around. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:15] Right, right. Okay. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:16] Which is kind of predictable. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:19] Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of — well, I just thought it's going to go one to two ways, right? They're either locked up or it's going to be like, "Oh, you know, he's fine. He just snapped out of it. And he's a kindergarten teacher now. And. The other guy works at a daycare." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:29] No. Well, one of them, things aren't really well, but we can't see the details. And the other one, not so well.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:35] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:35] Neither of them is available. Otherwise, I wouldn't talk about it. Right? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:38] He was only the prime minister for a short time. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:41] Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:43] That's funny. You can't say what he does because he's in a public position or because, or something like that, is that why. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:17:52] It was connected with security. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:54] Okay. I wondered about that. Like maybe he's got a security clearance. Doesn't want people to know he's been schlepping guns around Liverpool.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:18:00] They're gone. I mean, gone. They're just not around anymore. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:03] Interesting. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:18:03] Sounds like very enigmatic but by the time they got to that, I was already working jobs on my own by then, like legitimately.  

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:15] You're building this skill set. What is the skill set? What does it entail? What are you learning? You're learning how to break into places. So physical infiltration skills, what else? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:18:25] What happened was we'd started to do some legitimate work for high net worth individuals in the area, and the only people about any money really in that area at the time was soccer players for two football teams, Liverpool and Everton that were in the more affluent areas of the city. And so I wasn't used to forcing doors open and things like that. What they asked me to do was see if I could talk my way in. So could I knock and see their girlfriends or their housekeepers or, you know, anyone and try and get in that way? And then I could let them in. So I could leave a door open, a window open, and the boys will come in and they do this full security assessment. I'll breach the security and then say to them, "This is how we did it. And if we can do it, a criminal can do a burglar, can do it. Someone can get into your building." And that's really how it kind of panned out. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:15] You're saying like, "Oh, I really have to use the restroom." And the housekeeper's like, "Oh, she's an 18-year-old girl." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:19:20] No, I used to say things like I was coming to measure for blinds. I look so innocent, you know? Honestly, even now, no one ever suspects me of being a criminal. It's one of the biggest things that I teach is that a criminal, a hacker just doesn't necessarily look the way you think they're going to look. This isn't Hollywood. And I could talk to anyone and that'd be really friendly.

[00:19:42] So we did some of their homes and then we started their businesses. We started to get into the businesses, but by then the boys weren't interested. And I started to do it on my own. And the skills where I guess, influence persuasion. I was reading books on anthropology and stuff. This is long before you could sort of do courses on body language and non-verbal comms, which I do now, but I was reading stuff about the way people behaved and performed and trust and things like that.

[00:20:07] And I guess that's the skill set. I was always really interested in people. I always felt that people had stories and because I was interested in people to talk to me, and then it was just a case of really acting and having a plan, but improvising that plan. And in the early days, that was all I really did. I mean, I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't plan it the way we plan a job now, but it just worked.

[00:20:30] Then I used to write up the report and we'd hand it and we'd say, you need to do this, this and this. And I was starting to get paid like at the time, really serious amounts of money for just a student, just a kid for helping the guys out. But the boys weren't interested in doing it for much longer. And so I ended up working jobs on my own. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:47] So what was this like, how do you even get clients? You just go to a rich person. You're like, "I bet I could break into your house." I mean, how does it even work? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:20:54] It's much the same these days really, as it was in the beginning. In the beginning, it was word of mouth. Nobody did this. I mean, I was surprised even, you know, decades ago when I found out people do it for a living because it was just — this is a set of skills. This is something you can do. And I got one job off a guy who knew the family and just asked me if I could get into an office in Liverpool and just take an address book from a desk. Could I take that address book out of the desk and give it to him? And he said that you know, the company wants me to do that. If I could do that, I could have done anything. So could I do that before a certain day? And I said, "Yeah, yeah, you know, I'll call the boys, I'll call the cousins." And he knew my family and he said, "Do you really need them?" And I went, "Actually, probably why do I need them really?" And so I went in and did like a little reconnaissance and I thought it was going to be fairly shameful and that just did it. I just went and got this address book. And I didn't even think to have a contract in place or anything or to check that this was a legitimate job and that this guy was legit. I just assumed that if he knew the family, that it was all legal and approved. And I went and got this book and there's a long story behind it, but I went and got it. 

[00:21:59] And once I did that, I was getting a job probably once a month for a while. And then it gradually got more and more than I was started off in Liverpool. Then they moved to London and this is all the time I was doing my degree, my first degree. And then getting a job and then sort of doing this job. And I never for a minute thought that this would be my career and I never even spoke about it really. Once the boys carried on doing their thing and I kind of grew apart in there, I didn't tell anyone. I just thought it was the fries on the side, you know, something that got me money, occasionally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:30] A side hustle. Yeah. It's like you're working from home. It's just other people's homes. How do you know that what you were taking belonged rightfully to the person? Like, "No, no, no, we're just testing our security." How do you know you just weren't stealing things for other people that were private? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:22:47] So I think in the beginning, I didn't, and I think I'm just really, really lucky because that first job that came in, I still know that client. I can't say exactly what he is and what he does. I know that he's a legitimate person, but sometimes you need something like that and mostly I think it was. I don't believe that I actually took things illegally very often. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:10] Sure, yeah. I can kind of imagine, like, "All right, we know this guy keeps his bank routing numbers and his, you know, whatever codes in this Moleskine gray notebook that he keeps in his desk." "Yeah. I just want you to go in and see if you can get it." "I don't know. Let's see, I've got a notebook lying around in there." "Why don't you see if you can grab that and then bring it to me as proof," and then suddenly somebody like somebody broke into my notebook and drained my bank accounts. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:23:31] Well, that was one job. That definitely was that but again, the client was someone who is, well, one of the good guys, and that was an actually dangerous thing that happened. And it was exactly that. I was told that the target was someone who didn't think his security could be breached. And all I had to do was get into the house, to his desk, and look in an address book. And if there was a certain number in the address book, I was to leave a message on the desk that was pre-written. And if that number wasn't in the address book, I have to get out. 

[00:24:03] And while I was in the office, completely empty houses, this is in Asia. Office was completely empty. House was completely empty and it was fine. Yeah. And I picked it up and I found it and I left a message. And while I was still in the house, a team of security guards, not police, not legitimate, standing outside, their cars with the engines running. I had to run away and get out and they were armed. They looked like they had no sense of humor and I kind of thought this is not legitimate. This is a burglary. I've been hired to do this. And if they catch me, I can't talk my way out of this. I can't smile. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:36] No.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:24:37] You know, they've got guns and everything. And they were looking for a burglar and I was right there. I didn't get out — like I was actually outside the house behind and in the garden.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:45] Oh my God.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:24:45] So they were sort of looking for me. I had really long hair and a braid down the back and their car actually reversed over the ends of the bridge. I was that close. I was trying to sneak around it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:54] What?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:24:55] I sort of reached behind like this and my hair didn't give — it probably would have done if I had really pulled it. But I knew that movement, my white arm against the shadow, so I couldn't move it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:06] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:25:06] I knew if they caught me, I was dead. I knew they knew that I was there. And I asked the client afterwards when I was back home in England and I said, "Did anyone know what it was? I was on my own. Wasn't I? That wasn't legitimate." And the clients had, "Of course, it wasn't."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:19] Really.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:25:20] And I retired for 18 months after that. And I said, "I'm not doing anything like that ever again." And I said, "I wasn't going to do it because I thought I was going to be killed.”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:29] Yeah. I mean, for sure. How did they justify doing that to you without letting you know? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:25:34] National security. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:35] That's what they said. Huh? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:25:36] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:37] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jenny Radcliffe. We'll be right back. 

[00:25:44] Now, there are more ways to be a team with Microsoft Teams. Bring everyone together in a new virtual room, collaborate live, building ideas on the same page, and see more of your team on the screen at once. Learn more at microsoft.com/teams.

[00:25:59] And now back to Jenny Radcliffe on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:26:04] National security. They don't have other people that like are trained a little bit in with suicide pills or something? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:26:10] Wouldn't you think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:11] Yeah. Send someone with diplomatic cover to go do that crap, man. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:26:14] But that's not always how it works. And sometimes I think what happens is I'm just so expandable. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:22] Yeah. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:26:23] And I think I'm just good at it. And just there I was in the right place, the right time. I just wouldn't have ever been heard. I would just go missing on a business trip because it was on a business trip. This is the thing at the time, a lot of these really dangerous jobs came in and there were lots of them. I was doing a normal job. I had a normal career, a legitimate career as a procurement manager of all things for Fortune 500 companies. The only reason I was in Asia was because I was negotiating electromechanical contracts with things like leaf springs and capacitors if anyone knows what they are. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:56] I don't know what leaf springs are, but I know what capacitors are.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:26:58] It wasn't nearly as exciting as the other things I do. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:01] It doesn't sound as exciting. Yeah. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:03] So I kept on taking those jobs, but I mean, after that I retired. I said that's it, I'm hanging up my guns. I'm not doing anything like this for another — well ever, but in my mind —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:13] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:13] — it was 18 months when I didn't do anything. And I didn't answer calls or anything, but I missed it, you know? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:19] Sure.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:20] I knew by then it was legitimate and important work. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:22] And then they thought you were just so busy because you were good at your job. Right? She's not even answering. She's so busy. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:27] I don't know what they thought. I've never thought about what they thought.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:30] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:31] I just had to hide for a while and recover from it because I was very frightened. Like you said, I'm not trained to do it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:37] No. So how did you go legit? I know you've broken into banks, stadiums —

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:41] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:42] — theme parks, which sounds really dangerous. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:44] Oh, that was terrible. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:45] Yeah. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:27:45] The theme park was —  so I had a few of these, I ended up sort of specializing because, after the zoo experience, I really hate the entertainment industry and the leisure industry — word of mouth and everything. Again, I got asked to look at this theme park at night. Obviously, we went in at night to see if we could get in, because the idea being that if someone could sabotage the rides, the roller coasters, and things, you know, could you get and test the security? It was standard really, but then they have security guards — heard us or saw us or something — but they started coming after me. And I had to carry with me at this point — there were about four of us and I went and hid to where the best place to hide. And I'm not joking, I think it's just a morbid thing. We hid inside the ghost train in the tunnels. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:28] The what? Ghost train? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:28:28] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:29] Is that like a popular ride, somewhere? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:28:32] You know, the roller coaster, but with skeletons and things, you must — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:35] So is it like a haunted train ride? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:28:38] Haunted horror train thing — and I just went —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:40] Okay. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:28:40] Which normally under normal circumstances is very funny, you know, plastic skeletons and —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:45] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:28:45] — but not when you're on your own at night. And I had to wait there for ages and ages, hours until the security guards left. So there were loads of different places. That wasn't the scariest. The scariest was. I had to get into an office. And it was a huge building with probably two, 300 bedrooms in it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:04] Bedrooms in the office.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:29:06] Yeah. It's an educational facility where students sleep but then there's this whole —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:11] So it's a dormitory.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:29:12] Kind of out of terms, but there were about 400 bedrooms, massive and no one else in the building and there's something so strange and frightening about being the only person in the building. And I was there any person on our team watching the security team and I had to walk around and I got in a room. The door shut. I couldn't open the door. And then I could hear like glasses break and door slam and all down the corridors. And there was no one else there. It was horrible. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:41] How were you hearing door slumming and glasses? Was it just in your head because you were scared? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:29:45] You know, I don't think it was, but then it must have been because I don't believe in supernatural stuff or anything. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:50] Well, no, for sure.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:29:52] So I feel that it's either wind because maybe I left doors open as a run-through. And as I look for things or whatever it was, but your mind plays tricks on you. And there's nothing worse than being in a huge building, but being the only person in that building, there's something very strange about it. And I find that more bothersome than I've been in tunnels and insides hospitals and offices, all sorts of places, but that big dormitory with all the office space on my own was the weirdest feeling. It's a strange job, strange things happen, and you meet strange people.

[00:30:24] And I've done it for so long. Jordan, you know, I mean, that's zoo break-in, I had been about seven or eight really? And this the first one I remember. In theory, that's still breaking an entry. That's still physical infiltration. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:37] Sure.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:30:38] So I have 40 years of doing it if you count that as the first one. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:41] That's creepy stuff. Like I broke into my school and wanted to get some books. The cops showed up. They didn't catch me. No big deal, but then I broke into like a closed since the 1970s, mental hospital for kids and juvenile delinquents. So it was like where you got sent against your will for medical treatment, usually psychological. That was creepy because the beds were in there and it had been trashed by teenagers, you know, every year, since 1971 or whatever it had closed, but like the stuff was there.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:31:13] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:13] So you'd walk in and there would be like a box of, I guess, IV bags or some sort of medical stuff, and then they'd be strung all over the place, but there'd be like a gurney that was rusty and tipped over with a dirty old mattress on it. And you're just thinking, like, not only is this old and the people who are here were really aggrieved at the time, or really like upset at the time, but the people, well who've come in since half of them have, you know, 90 percent are probably teenagers, but then there's been like, crazy criminals and like people on the run and like homeless people that are probably sleeping for the night because it's raining. But then who knows what else? Just weird creepy stuff. And they had underground tunnels in the building that would go from one building to another. And we went in. That was the next level of scary because now you're underground in an abandoned. So I kind of get the feeling of when you go, "I'm hearing something." I wasn't alone because I'm not a total lunatic, but you definitely, you hear something and then you realize. It could be anything. It could be nothing. It could be a rat. It's probably literally like the wind blowing a piece of paper around, but it still sounds like there's just somebody behind you. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:32:16] You know the thing is that's so true. And then you get pareidolia and you start to see faces in the shadows and in the smoke. But I think a lot of the time there are people, even those underground spaces, those abandoned places. There are like, you say homeless people. People hiding out and there are rats and shit everywhere. I never discount the idea of someone hiding out in a building, that's a public place and sleep in there. 

[00:32:41] We were in one place with a theater. Oh my gosh, In the theater, I heard all kinds of noises, but there were other people with me when that happened. And we were looking for the office and I looked for the office. I found a pile of clothes and a razor and some sort of like plates and things, like as if someone had been eaten. We realized that someone was basically living in one of the cupboards we'd hidden, behind — not a false screen, but kind of made a screen out of janitorial staff. And you know, that they're watching and they're there.

[00:33:08] Yeah. It's a very spooky thing. And often, I mean, one of those things I always say, when I talk about it is that. When you think someone's rumbled, we tend not to run out. We'd run-up to the roof and sit on the roof. And I spent a lot of time sitting on roofs and I can tell you the spookiest story, if you like, of the roof.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:23] Please do but why do you run to the roof instead of running out? That seems like you'd want to get out.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:33:27] It's counter-intuitive so security assumed that you're running away. And you can go up or you can hide. Basically, most buildings upstairs. You can go up the stairs because it will be a fire escape. It won't be locked and it will never lock. You can always say most doors anyway, but those doors are very easy and you can just hide out there and people just don't go to the roof. So you know that if you can hide there for even half an hour, the heat will die down a little bit and you can just kind of casually walkout. But if the alarm is being triggered and people are looking for you, then going down and heading for the exit is exactly where they go. Just somewhere to hide. And in truth, I like the solitude a little bit as well. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:03] Tell me about the creepy roof. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:34:04] It was the weirdest shit. So I got up on this roof, it was very, very high in the middle of London. And I just thought, I'd just wait this one out. So I'm paid now just to be strictly, very clear.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:15] Okay.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:34:15] I'm paid to test the security of a client's premises or their staff in order to expose vulnerabilities in their security. So that the bad guys can't do the same thing. And so that we can educate as to what's going wrong, whether that's persuasion methods of the people, psychology or whether it's something to do with their physical and operational security. I've done this huge building and he said the name of it, that in London, it has sort of been in this guy's office. I sent myself an email from his computer, sent him an email from his computer. "You owe me a pint. I told you I get in, Jen," this type of thing. The building has a life. It has energy. And when that energy changes sometimes that just outside the door, you sort of feel the energy, you feel things go quiet and then a buzz of noise.

[00:34:57] And it's like a sixth sense. And I can feel that this has been too easy. As soon as you think you've done it and it's easy, you know, that turns onto you. So I thought this has been too easy. Something's going wrong. I got a feeling that I've been rumbled and someone's on the way. So I get out and I need somewhere to go and just lay low for a bit and let it all die down. I go up the backstairs, get up to the roof. And I sat on the roof and I was just looking across the city. And at the time, I smoked and I got a cigarette and a lighter. I go like this and lighter wouldn't work because it was quite windy. And a guy just appeared from behind me and says, "Lights?" 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:35] Holy crap. That would scare the crap out of me.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:35:37] Right, well it did. I mean, it wasn't right near the edge which is shit and he said, "Oh, fuck you, Jen. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:42] He used your name. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:35:43] Yeah. I looked at him and kind of went, "Eh," I was lost for words which is not like me, and I was lost for words. And then I turned back again, he's gone. And I was still doing my back to the only door on that roof. So, I don't know where he went. So it was like, okay, did he jump? And I can't even go to the edge, isn't the very edge, but like, you could have fallen off and gone nothing. I couldn't find him and never knew what that was about either.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:08] What? What are you talking about right now? It sounds like you're hallucinating. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:11] Well, you know, I have said, but I'm asking again. And I did a job in Sweden. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:16] Okay. So he's a real person. He's not just a figment of your imagination. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:19] Yeah, he's a real person.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:20] You think so.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:21] Well, it might be right? He's real. I asked him again on the job in Sweden and just was lost for words.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:27] What the hell? So who is it?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:28] I don't know. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:29] It's some guy that works for one of your clients though. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:32] Yeah, because they knew my name. And what I do is I'm just a private security contractor. You make a lot of connections. Some people know where I am sometimes, I guess. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:43] That is super, super weird. That is beyond creepy.  They were just like wanting you to know that they were still watching you, even though you thought I got away with it. So there's like, well, hold on.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:53] Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:54] This random guy still knows who you are and where you are. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:36:57] I've had things like I've been in restaurants and things. I was in a restaurant in Brussels. And I was on expenses at the time. I was still doing a legit job if you like a standard career. And I've gone in and I ordered, I don't know, whatever they recommend. And they brought the tasting menu, but it was a really expensive restaurant. And like, my expenses just would never have covered it. I realized that when I was on like the 11th course of these exquisite gourmets. The sorbet in a rose shape. It was just the most fancy thing. And I just thought, "Oh God, I can never pay for this on the expenses." And then I got to the ends and it was like, "It's taken care of." And I was like, "Taken care of by who?" and they just said, "That they said hello." And so the whole bill was taken care of and I wasn't on a security job at that point. So I think I've always thought that people kept tabs on me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:44] That is really creepy. And like, if I didn't know you, I'd be like, "Oh, poor thing. She's a little bit — it's not all there." You know, it sounds really weird and impossible.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:37:53] I just think it's a strange career and you meet strange people. And I think that by definition, the type of job I do invites theater. And it invites people who take great delight to speak of me, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:07] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:08] Or just making me think that I'm not that clever, you're not undercover, but I wasn't trying to be undercover then, but we're either looking out for you or we're just letting you know that we know where you are. And I think that's something that's just been a recurring theme throughout my career really. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:21] Yikes. Okay. That would creep me out. That would be effective for me. So if you all want to creep me out, pay for my bill at a restaurant and —

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:29] It was great. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:30] — let's test the theory. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:32] You know, my friend said to me, "Oh, it could just be some guy." You know, it could be someone sort of hitting on you, but like —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:36] Super ineffective when they keep their identity.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:39] I mean, what other explanation is there? I don't know. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:43] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:43] Maybe it was. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:44] So what were you doing — pay the bills? Then you had a regular job and you started doing this. Was there any time where these overlapped? So like, "By day I'm doing whatever accounting thing or whatever it was. And by night, I'm breaking into Zeus." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:38:57] So I was mostly a negotiator in my regular job.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:00] Okay. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:39:01] Because funny enough, I was good to people and persuasion and influence and stuff. And so I was being sent all over the world to do that. I sort of enjoyed it. It was good. I had a good salary and nice colleagues and I got to travel, but then when I was away, all the clients will call and say, "While you're in country X, Y, Z, if you want to tag a day on." I mean, the whole instance in the house with the book and the desk and have reasoned with the guns, I mean, that was the work job. I got a call in the hotel that said — they actually rang me. And they said, "Are you traveling back business class from Hong Kong?" And I said, "No." They said, "You want to travel back to business class, just tag on a day and do that job." And I said, "Yeah." 

[00:39:41] So at this point, I've never really sort of set of how strange this was. I'd always felt that it changed me, but I had this legitimate career. And I was doing like a master's degree. I was writing stuff for work. I had lots going on. But then every now and then, and increasingly frequently I will get asked, "There's an extra job in this country," or "Can you take a diversion and do this infiltration job, write the reports and do it." And it was money. I mean, it was good money. I didn't tell the work that I was doing. I was specifically not allowed to do any other job other than the company, but I always think they thought that was like, you can't do bar work or something at the same time as. working for us without asking. And I wasn't going to ask them. I think even not to that, I thought of it as a hobby sort of, and it wasn't something that I felt was good for my legitimate career. 

[00:40:28] And what we went in was the world that would have now with cybersecurity and privacy work. It's such a huge thing that there are people who do that job legitimately. I didn't know anyone else was hired to do it. Maybe, spies or something maybe did similar things, but I wasn't doing that. I was just sort of being paid some money to do small infiltrations. I wouldn't even call it that. Certainly, I didn't call it social engineering. It was just testing someone's system test and that alarm or whatever. 

[00:40:59] I would sometimes go — I mean, there was a job I did in Brussels, actually. I did a fiscal infiltration in an office. I got there at 5:00 a.m. I did the infiltration. I had to climb down, basically a fire escape on the side of a very high building. And then I had to meet at like 9:30 with the regular team. I sort of walked into breakfast. I had coffee and croissants with my colleagues and then went into my normal day. Just as if it was nothing rarely. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:26] Would you ever work in the United States? Because I assume you'd — get here you can get shot for showing up at the wrong place. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:41:31] I mean, I did, but what had happened by then was there were contracts and there were get-out-of-jail-free cards. So you get a letter that says, "This is the number that you call. This a security test." And the US was always a lot ahead of Europe and the UK, certainly in terms of that, being something that was recognized and was a legitimate job and something that you could do and be kind of touched for doing it and go, "Well, no, it's a security test," and people would understand that. So by the time I was working in the States and even in some parts of Europe, different than I did at first. It sort of Eastern Europe and places like that, it was a legitimate thing. At least I could see that there were legal documents and things because I would charge a premium if someone could shoot me or if I can get chased by a dog. If there's a possibility of guard dogs, I would charge more money. Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:23] If it's possible for me to get killed, I'm going to get a premium going. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:42:26] Yeah, yeah, and I'm not a fan of guard dogs. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:29] Well, no, that's kind of the point in general, as you're not supposed to be a fan of guard dogs chasing it. Yeah, in the US they probably have to put up bright orange signs and brief the security guy. "Okay. We're going to have somebody break-in. It's a single woman. Do not shoot her. Like you normally would today only, right? Like here's what she looks like. No pistol whipping." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:42:47] Yeah. That there are certain things or important places that mean that when you are caught or almost caught, you can diffuse the situation. Although to be fair, there's a lot of people in America that could do that now. So I will speak about that and I will educate you, but I don't necessarily work as much in America anymore. And it's not just the US. It's anywhere where there's guns to be negotiated at shall we say. UK is the same. There was a job that was national infrastructure, critical national infrastructure, 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:16] Which is what like bridges and stuff? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:43:18] Energy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:19] Energy. Got it.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:43:19] Energy and defense and there's a chance that you could be tasered, chased by dogs and stuff like that. And all of those jobs require layers, different layers, and buckle teams and beatings and everything else because there's a real chance that you can be injured. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:33] Right. So they probably put somebody in the security control room, who's like — 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:43:37] The security team sometimes knows. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:39] Can blow the whistle?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:43:40] If the whole team knows or sees the client, it's pointless doing this. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:43] Yeah. They're just going to be more careful than usual. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:43:46] It's not a genuine test, but usually a national infrastructure job, it was a four-digit if you like a pin code that we could give, and once that pin code went in, they all got on the radio system down  —  that's 11 minutes to do that job. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:00] To break into a nuclear power plant or whatever. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:44:02] Yeah. Yeah, because it's 11 minutes to get to the actual target, which they specify because they could stand down law enforcement as in the real law enforcement for 11 minutes, because not 11 minutes, they could keep an eye, but they said that's the longest they could give me. And after that, they stand them back. Just in case, I suppose, real criminals were right behind me because, you know, what are the odds? Right. So that's 11 minutes to do it. That was scary. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:28] I think of the United States, those nuclear power plants and stuff. They have their own armed SWAT team essentially. That's basically onsite ready because they're waiting for somebody to come in and try and steal the nuclear fuel or just melt it down.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:44:39] That even arms in the UK. Right? I mean, you know, well, the arm just response from the UK law enforcement at that place was two minutes. And so I have about 120 seconds to persuade someone that I was not a real criminal, so we have to have a pin code.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:52] Wow.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:44:53] But that client was onsite and they knew broadly where it was to the point where it nearly gave in.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:58] Wow.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:44:58] — several times. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:59] Wow. I mean, I guess the core lesson here is that it doesn't really matter what security measures are in place. If there's a human element, the system has a vulnerability. Right? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:45:08] I mean that's the thing, you know, I mean, I tell the story where I got into a bank in Germany and they said, "Well, we need someone to get in and it needs to be someone like you." The team that hired were all huge big military guys —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:22] Okay. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:45:22] — with tattoos and baldy head and things and muscles and just like, they stand out.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:27] They stick out a little.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:45:28] And they said, "Could you try and get in?" And it was biotechs. It was a fingerprint lock. I got past it because I think I created a huge force. I had an arm bandaged and I carried some folders and things and I put my finger on the biotech lock and it didn't work. Security guy comes over. It's a very quiet, very fancy bank. And I swore a lot in such a way you can't get in. And he said, "Well, you try the other hand." I said, "I can't." But the other hand is not really being used for it or tested but I tried because it's not letting me in. And I'm all bandaged. And he pushed my hand down really hard to get to the fingerprint swipe and I sort of cried out and things. You know, I swore. I cursed a lot because you know, "Oh, you hit my hands." And he just let me in, because embarrassment sort of like stop making this a fuzz and look at me, I mean, I do. So,  I think sometimes it's using those kinds of triggers. 

[00:46:20] I got past the guards at the Tower of London because they were embarrassed. I spilled water all over them. I kind of passed them down and stuff and was told to just go through. So I think it's a case of tactical adaptation is what we call it in training. And then let us work with what you've got and what works for you and know not a huge lie. Because if I was to try and make up a pretext or a lie, that was massively away from who I am. It would be difficult to sustain. Lies are difficult to sustain if they're complicated. So we tend to stick with something that's plausible. And those are the types of things that worked 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:51] Lies are difficult if they're complicated. What's something that's complicated versus plausible? It seems like a really dumb question, but I think obviously you wouldn't have this as one of your principles if people didn't make this mistake all the time?

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:47:01] Well, I think what it is people get to elaborate. Try and keep it as simple as you can, because if the facts are not on your side if you're creating a story in order to get past reception or get past security. You've only got two or three questions planned almost by definition. You're not living that persona. And so it's easy for us to kind of fall apart if you act out of character. I think the best thing to do is to stay within your character. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:27] Like your real character. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:47:28] Yeah, yeah. Not stray too far from it. You know, I wouldn't put accents on. For example, when I have two jobs in the states, they see my accent. They think I'm Irish or something. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:38] Yeah, I was going to say, you just keep this like pseudo-Irish accent. You've got going here. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:47:42] But I wouldn't attempt a US accent. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:44] But you can do a US accent, right? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:47:46] No. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:47] You sure? I feel like anyone can do an American accent. 

[00:47:49] Jenny Radcliffe: [00:47:49] But there's a lot of different American accents. I mean the city I'm from, there's three different Liverpool or Scouse accents.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:55] Yeah. You can talk like me though. Every movie has mostly people that just talk just like me. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:48:00] Right. Yeah, I've already in the sense of you used some Americanisms that I wouldn't normally use. I wouldn't say mum, I wouldn't say soccer or something, or I say vacation, which we never say here and I do that when I'm being interviewed in the States. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:13] Holiday football and mum, right? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:48:15] Yes, exactly. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:16] I'm very worldly. So what are you doing before you get in there? You've got to have done some prep work, right? Are you just Googling the people that are going to work there? I mean, what sort of resources are you mustering to try and get in with people? I assume social media plays a part in this.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:48:31] Yeah. It never used to be. Oh my God. We used to have to camp out, outside the target. When I used to sit and do surveillance on targets for days and days and days, weeks to find out like all the habits because what you're looking for is the way that a group of people in a building, the shortcuts they take, they like they're all little hackers. The building,  the people work in, they hark. They don't do what they're supposed to do. So we'd look at that and we'd look at where did they hang out? Where did they go for a drink on a Friday, a pint on a Friday? Where did they go for the pint? Which pub? That's what I said. I said bars, and I would never set bars normally unless I spent time with a US audience.

[00:49:07] I mean, do all those things. And we'd look at who spoke to who and cars they drove and everything, but now we can scrape social media. Somebody is talking somewhere about what's going on. Someone is posting photographs of the inside of their office at the lanyards. They were of the security systems that are inside the building. People are talking about colleagues. You can work out from doing a social media sweep who hates to, where the power lies in organizations. That's not necessarily a formal structure, their attitudes, their hierarchy, their hobbies.

[00:49:38] I mean, it's like I did a job in South Africa and we went into a sort of Safari with this ranger. And I asked if there were ostriches in South Africa for some reason. And he said, "We had two, in this park. They found them when they were chicks, whatever, raised them for three years, did all the chain, naturalized them, released them into the park. And the minute that they released them, they walked off to two lions and just walked up to these lions because they'd never seen a lion before. And I said, "What happened? And he said, "Well, the lion tore them to pieces." He said, "The lion couldn't believe it's dinner, just walked up to it." 

[00:50:13] And that was how I felt when social media became a thing. It was just like, you're telling me now you're telling me and all the people out there. They will exploit this for malintent, especially a couple of years ago before people started to be warned about the security implications. People were putting everything about themselves online. 

[00:50:31] We had a lady who had signed a contract to say that because she is investigated. And she was hiding really. She was pretty good. She sort of had a profile on social media but her children didn't. We could connect it to her kids from photographs from — so there were photographs from her office on the corporate sites, so she was sitting at a desk. On that site, there were pictures of her and her family. We could trace the surname, found the surname on social media, maybe six or seven different connections. I mean, we knew so much about her, not because she was careless, but because of her children, teenage children. You know, they didn't even think about what they put on there. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:09] Isn't that how they caught El Chapo? His dumb son was like, "I went out with dad," or whatever. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:51:17] You can't be a hundred percent safe if you're connected to people, you just cannot be. And then people always ask me, "Well, does that mean we can't use social media? Does that mean we need to be paranoid?" Well, no, it doesn't, but you do need to make decisions. That the point is it has to be a conscious decision about what we post on social media. You have to think a little bit about what could a malicious person do with that information. And then if you decide to post it well, then, you know, that's freedom of speech, whatever, but you have to make that decision. And I think sometimes when people realize how easy it is.

[00:51:50] I mean, there was a picture of her with a dog and we got an address with open-source information. Got her address, looked at the house on Internet maps if you like. And you could see that she lived in a small village and there was a vet and we sent an email saying, "There's an outstanding invoice." 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:08] Because you just kind of know she goes to that vet cause it's so close. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:52:11] Well, we don't know she did or didn't, but she'd be familiar with the name of the veterinarian and she's had or has a pass — so just sheer human curiosity is going to go to open that attachment. She did and as soon as she did it if we'd have been criminals that would have been game over. You know, we've all got these weaknesses and these levers, and I think that's really where social media and sort of technology have come in. It's made the job quicker, easier, and deeper. You know, we can go super deep into people's lives now, which before I would have had to have done that physically when I first started out. But now we can do it remotely. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:45] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jenny Radcliffe. We'll be right back.

[00:52:49] Now there are more ways to be a team with Microsoft Teams. With together mode, you can bring everyone together in one space in the same virtual room, you can bring the power of true collaboration to your projects with a whiteboard, drawing, sharing, and building ideas in real-time, all on the same page. And with a large gallery view, you can see more of your team all at once with up to 49 people on screen, all at the same time, you can even raise your hand virtually so everyone can be seen and heard. When there are more ways to be together, there are more ways to be a team. Learn more about all the newest Teams features at microsoft.com/teams. 

[00:53:24] I want to thank you for listening and supporting the show, especially supporting our advertisers. That's what keeps the lights on around here. If you want a list of the advertisers and the discount codes, we've got a page for that, jordanharbinger.com/deals. And don't forget, we've got worksheets for every episode as well. That link is always in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. All right now for the conclusion here with Jenny Radcliffe.

[00:53:49] As a public figure, then am I screwed? Because there's so much information about me online and also this show. I mean, somebody could just get all the transcripts and there's so many details in here that I can't hide all of these.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:53:59] But that's true of any of us who were out there, you know, you just have to make those decisions and then be careful. The truth is we've put together. Fake phone calls and answering machine messages, splicing together, conversation from people who do podcasts and I've got physio and things out there. So, you know, yeah, you've got to think about we're all potential targets. Well, how much of a target and to what ends. You've got to live your life. That's what I'd say. We just have to be more cautious than perhaps we were before. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:29] The only sort of security protocol that I have other than not putting a lot of personal details deliberately on there. Like, "Oh, here's our new dog. His name is this," like that kind of thing. But everybody knows I've got pets and their names and my kid and their names and how old they are rough. I guess I don't put things like, "Hanging out at this place location." And I asked people if I'm hanging out in groups, I go, "Hey, you know, if you're going to post anything, either post it later —"

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:54:53] Later.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:54] "— tag me in it later, or don't tag me at all, or don't put the location because early on when Foursquare first started — I've told this story a million times. So I apologize to the listener here, but when Foursquare first started, I installed it, checked in at some lounge in New York, whatever. And then like a few minutes later, a buddy of mine walks in and I'm like, "Oh, Hey, how are you doing? I didn't know you're going to be here." And then another person walked in and I was like, "Oh gosh, so-and-so's here too." And I'm like, "What a weird coincidence of all the places in Manhattan." And my friend goes, "Well, you did post it on Foursquare, which then posts to your Twitter." And I was like, "I bet you, that's why this other person is here right now. We should leave."

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:55:30] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:30] And I uninstalled Foursquare right away because basically, I was tweeting, "Hanging out at Mesquite bar and grill with three people that I know." And it's like, if anybody wants to find out where you are, all they have to do is look at your social media. They know where you're on vacation. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:55:45] Yeah, but it's worse than that. So these fitness apps, some people log their runs, you know, and they go jogging. And then, you can see who more or less works out where they live, what time they're doing the runs, it's all logged. And there've been instances in the UK where there've been people who the police have got there just in the nick of time to stop people being abducted and attacked. You've got to think about a particular location on how can you put yourself at risk. That you'd made a conscious decision. If he will still want to do that, they can make conscious decisions.

[00:56:16] I had a client who was a celebrity in the UK, and his problem was — and actually, it could have been a lot worse, but he had a stalker, a super-fan. We call it fixated individuals. He's doing a show in a theater, in a specific location. And the problem is it's the compulsion to constantly post on Instagram and everything else. He's posting — going for a massage, doing this — and that fixated individual — he took a photograph himself, getting ready for his massage, nothing provocative about it, but she knew where he was due on stage that night. So she knew the city and she looked at all the interior shots of all the kind of expensive boutique — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:54] Oh no way.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:56:55] — salons in that area. And so he posted that and by the time he had his massage, got dressed, and came out, she was waiting outside. And she was everywhere, he went everywhere, everywhere he went. And you know, the first piece of advice is, "Dude, stop posting it as it happens. Stop going, 'Oh, this is live on Instagram. This is live on Facebook. This is live and whatever.' You know, do it after the fact or do something that obscures your location. But you know, this woman —I strongly assessed was unstable."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:24] Nothing shows true love, like showing up to someone's massage uninvited after they posted about it on the Internet.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:57:30] Right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:31] That is so creepy. That's somebody who kills you because you're meant to be together or some weird stuff like that. Right? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:57:36] Like misery, that's how it always makes me think of these cases. And some of those, it feels a bit like misery. Sometimes people just need genuine help but for the celebrities to say, "But I've built up this following, I need to keep content fresh."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:51] Post it a week later. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:57:52] Yeah, 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:53] No one's going to care. Post it a day later. No one's gonna care seriously. sWait, four days. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:57:57] Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:59] Yeah. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:57:59] But especially if you're in that situation — I mean, there's been lots of situations like where the physical infiltrations kind of what we spoke about, but a lot of the job has been about looking at something from a criminal perspective. We spoke a bit about some of the jobs that, I guess, in hindsight, maybe when I call legal, but mostly what I'm hired to do now and hired by very high authority is to look at something with that streetwise, that street smart criminal perspective, but being someone who isn't a criminal and say, "This is what I think could be done with that information, or this is how I will get into that building, or this is how I take that picture off the wall or whatever, and there's value in that. And I feel just really lucky that I get to do that legitimately and protect people now. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:45] How much does it cost to have someone break into my office and make sure it's secure? Just sort of a ballpark. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:58:52] Depends, I mean, it really depends. During the lockdown, it stopped for a little while for about a month in the UK, I stopped getting asked to do that. And then the job starts to come back in and it depends. The answer is, it depends. Do you have guard dogs?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:06] It's all about those dogs.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:59:09] If it's a standard stable with a job, it'd be a different price point than if it was a more secure facility or if it was a trickier puzzle to crack. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:17] Yeah, so what's the price range? Is it like you get the lockdown special, but like beyond that, what's the price range? A couple of thousand bucks all the way up to what? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:59:26] Yeah, exactly. That's the range. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:27] Okay. Got it. So whatever I said, it's just, yeah,  that's fine. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:59:30] Whatever you said, yeah, that's fine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:30] Got it. Okay. Fine. Fair enough. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:59:32] It really just depends.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:33] Sure.

Jenny Radcliffe: [00:59:33] And now the industry, I mean, you can get plenty of people to break into a standard office and to a perfectly good red team pen test for a lot less than I would charge to do the same thing because I've been there for a long time. I don't run as quickly as I used to run. I'm older. I don't need to be doing that all the time. I do a few a year to keep my hands in the game, but now mostly I speak about it. I talk about onstage. I come to talk about this stuff, and I educate, and I do the jobs that I think are interesting or exciting or important, but I don't do many standard jobs anymore because younger people, they can do it now. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:09] You ever break into an office and eat the birthday cake that's in the fridge for someone. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:00:14] I've said this before. The things I would say when I educate people to do this, I say, "Never eat anything, never eat anything that anyone sends to you in the boast. And certainly never use anything unless, you know," because why would you do that? But I was so hungry.And I'll do it every year. Same clients, same job. They never fix what I tell them to fix. It is fish in a bottle, right? Two things happen. Two years, Jordan. The first year, I'm in there. It was a stormy night and lots of the office windows were wide open. Don't know why. They seemed strange. And I walked in through, I heard a cat. And I could see a cat, it was sitting in more or less —  

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:51] Don't tell me you ate the cat. That's just disgusting. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:00:55] But I felt compelled to rescue it because I thought it's going to jump. Like, it's stupid really? But I like cats. I put it in my backpack, zipped up, and it was peeing. On the stairs, on my way down, I've run into one of the people from the office and I'm already with my pretext. I said. "Oh, hi, I'm just in procurement working late and with Jordan's team." And she said, "Okay." Then she went —

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:16] Smell like cat pee. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:01:17] "You got a cat?" And I went, "Look, I have not been honest with you." I said, “I'm actually not working for procurement. I'm on pest control." And then I said, "And I'm taking this to the lab," and sort of like, "Thank you, Barbara," or whatever she was called and walked off. And I laughed and laughed and laughed at the team when I got back. The lab? It's a cat? How am I pest control? What lab? What are you talking about?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:43] We're going to lab test this cat. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:01:44] I always think she must have thought, "What the hell?" 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:46] I need to make sure it's a real cat. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:01:47] But I could not carry it down. I have to put in the bag and I just —

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:51] Yeah, of course.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:01:51] — threw it in the bag away because it's late and just let it go in the car park. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:54] Oh my God. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:01:55] The next year, I'll be waiting for that long for them all to go home. God knows these people, they got no lives. I'm waiting for ages for everyone to go home. They all go home. And there obviously had a birthday celebration, a huge cake on the desk. They must have just left it to clear it off the next day. I sure ate a piece of this cake, which is really unprofessional. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:15] Like someone's birthday cake for the following day. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:02:17] Obviously, the whole office, they're tired somewhat and didn't eat the whole cake.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:21] I was thinking like a new cake, like happy birthday, Janice. They didn't want to ruin the surprise. So they bring it in the morning and they're like, "We're just going to sing on Monday morning." And then they bring out the cake and it says, happy birthday, Ja and then there's just a piece cut out of the side.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:02:35] Well, I was just really hooked. Because one of the things that we say is you certainly to drink anything. Before the job, because what we say — and this is very British — tease means wheeze, right? So you do not want to need to go to the bathroom a lot. So we tend not to drink, but I have some more, that little, tiny bit in case I cough or anything. So we tend not to do that. And you know, when you're thirsty, you think you're hungry and I've been there for ages and I just was hungry, it was just there and there's just a slice. But I've joked about it before an interview because that's the last thing I would ever recommend anyone did. But I just did.

[01:03:05] Yeah. I mean, there's loads of stupid stuff like that stuff that happens as prankers. I mean, I was in Germany, I was supposed to get into an office and it started to rain, sat on a fire escape and my phone was just getting covered in rain. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:22] In rain.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:03:22] Yeah. And just in Warsaw, it was raining so hard and I was just like, "Oh my God. And I'm thinking my phone's going to get wrecked here tonight. My iPhone it's going to get covered with water, or whatever." I couldn't grip anything I had — I'm not going to go into too much detail because the client will know we were mean, but all the stuff, all my kits to get in, I couldn't have. So I knew that my team inside I'm going to come and get me if I didn't appear. So it just sat on this fire escape and there was lightning and thunder all around the building. And I just sat there with my phone to sort of shielded from the rain and just waited for them to let me in. And I remember them thinking that this is the last time of doing this freaking job. That I'm not doing this again. This is it. I retire. I'm always saying I'll resign because some weird stuff happens and then I never do 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:04] You have a calling card? That movie home alone, where the guys are like, "The wet bandits, we leave the faucets on every place where we go." Anything like that? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:04:12] I have a little silver octopus, little charms, silver octopus charms. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:16] Some James Bond shit, right there. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:04:17] Oh, it's not. It's just a theater. You can't do the show without a sense of theater. I mean, there's plenty of people who don't. I got taught to do it. I asked all the mentors over the years and one guy told me he leaves a knot so it's a piece of red string and he just used to tighten the knot and leave this just tiny piece of red string with a knot in it on the desk. I just thought that was so cool. And then I thought I'd never do anything like that. It'd be really cool if I just did something that like if the client didn't believe I'd been in the office and before I've given the whole presentation, share the photographs. If I was on a call like this, or if I was stood in front of them presents and I could say, "Well, if you just look onto your desk, there's like this little octopus, like splits hacked underneath the desk." That's what those are. Try it. I need to get to say, and they were like, "Oh, yeah, God, that's really cool." And then I just did it ever since. It's weird because I ended up leaving them in lots of places then. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:08] Sure. Yeah, of course. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:09] Because if you go back and they're still there. That's kind of — 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:11] Yeah, like you go back to the Roman Colosseum 20 years later, and there's your little blue octopus up on one of the columns.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:17] And I saw something similar to that. There was a film that influenced that as well. There was a film called The Last Emperor and he finds that there is a pet cricket and it was on the throne and he was the only person that knew it was there 40 years later. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:28] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:28] I remember thinking that was cool and thought of a similar thing. It's not, it's just a distraction now. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:33] Yeah. Distraction but it is cool. Does the octopus have any meaning or is it just like, "I need charms in bulk and the only ones they have are an octopus and a little race car." 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:40] I think the octopus is an interesting animal —

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:43] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:43] — probably an alien. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:44] They're smart and they're delicious. That's a rare combination.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:47] They are and I can't — you know, I really try not to eat calamari —

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:50] I know.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:50] — because I think they're so smart, but yeah — no, I just think it's just an interesting animal that probably shouldn't be here. That's what I think 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:56] You think it's an alien, the octopus? 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:05:58] There's evidence to suggest that part of its structure that's potentially got influences from something else — I don't know and I'm not a biologist, but there was something about it. And I thought it shouldn't be on this planet. That's too small. That's too weird. It shouldn't be. And the idea of something that shouldn't be there struck me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:14] Ah, I like that. I can get behind that. There's so much that I want to talk about it. I think we should have you back. I want to talk about a con man. I want to get into scams and social engineering and how these different things work from a mechanical level, but this is fun, you know, rarely do I get a chance to talk to somebody who breaks into places for a living and is not already in prison, although — you know, I'm trying to find more and more of those. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:06:36] Yeah. Well, I mean the night is young, but now, I mean, we never broke anything and never took anything, 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:42] Just some birthday cake, 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:06:43] Just the birthday cake. Sue me. But other than that —

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:46] Yeah.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:06:46] — it's by request, 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:48] Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. This is really interesting. Like I said, we'll have you back, we'll go in deeper on scams, cons, social engineering. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:06:56] Awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:56] I know you had some other topics that I don't even want to give away because they're kind of esoteric and cool and fun. And we'll definitely do those next time you come back.

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:07:03] Yeah, I didn't mean to be esoteric. There was an awful lot of, kind of spooky stories there, which  managed to get up to me, which normally I try not to talk about it too much in case people think I'm genuinely, you know — 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:14] A looney tune, yeah —

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:07:15] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:16] Well, too late now. Thanks for coming on. 

Jenny Radcliffe: [01:07:20] Oh no, it's been great. Thanks for having me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:22] Now, I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before we get into that, I wanted to give you a quick bite of the episode I did a while back with skating legend, Tony Hawk. Tony virtually defined the entire sport of skating and was innovating in the niche before anyone even gave it a second look. His marketing and business savvy and stories of some very close calls really made this is a good one. 

Tony Hawk: [01:07:44] I picked up scanning at the tail end of its first boom in the '70s. That was the trend. And then when I discovered the possibilities and I literally saw people flying out of empty swimming pools, that was my wow moment. There was a danger factor. There was this edgy factor. And I just devoted myself to it. I wanted to learn how to fly.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:03] For guys who considered yourselves nerds and you pretty tough. 

Tony Hawk: [01:08:07] That is the defining moment. If you want to do this seriously or continue to do it is the moment you get hurt. One of my worst injuries in the beginning was I got a concussion. I knocked my teeth out. I knew when I woke up in the pro shop of the skate park that I wanted to get back out there and do it.

[01:08:22] I can't believe people still recognize me. I can't believe that I get recognized for skating because that was never something that was a goal. There was never something that was an option when I was younger. The most famous skaters when I started skating were only known to a very small group of skateboarders. They were in the skate magazines. They were definitely not on TV. They weren't considered sports stars. I still feel strange that I get recognized. You know, it's weird skateboarding now, some people get into it to be rich or famous. When I got into it, neither one of those things was even possible 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:56] For more with Tony Hawk, including how he almost lost control of his brand entirely, check out episode 324 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[01:09:06] So interesting. We definitely have to have Jenny come back and explain some of the psychological machinations of how she's able to pass through security. Use people's own psychology and mindsets against them for a profit. There was a lot more that we didn't even cover because we could have kept going. I think the next one we might have to have over a beer. It's just absolutely incredible. She's a great storyteller. Obviously, I can't wait to have her back.

[01:09:26] Links to her stuff is going to be on the website. Please do use the links that we provide. If you buy any books or anything from the guests. We always get a little kickback. I think it's a fairly small amount but hey, it adds up if you do your part. There are worksheets for this episode in the show notes. Transcripts for this in the show notes. And there's a video of this interview going up on the YouTube channel at some point. That YouTube channel is at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm also at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. 

[01:09:54] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships, using systems and tiny habits over in our Six-Minute Networking course, that is free. That's over at jordanharbinger.com/course. No money is needed. I want you to dig the well before you get thirsty. You'll see the benefits for yourself. That's all I'm worried about right now. And most of the guests on the show, they contribute to the course in some way. So come join us, you'll be in smart company.

[01:10:16] This show is created in association with PodcastOne and my amazing team. That's Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and Gabe Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know someone who's into social engineering, hacking, or just a burglar, I don't know, share this episode with them. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode of the show. Please do share the show with those you care about, but in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on this show — maybe not this particular, maybe not everything you hear on this show, but apply what you learn — the stuff that's not going to land you in jail — so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[01:10:58] Now, there are more ways to be a team with Microsoft Teams. Bring everyone together in one space with a new virtual room, collaborate live, drawing, sharing, and building ideas with everyone on the same page, and make sure more of your team is seen and heard with up to 49 people on screen at once. Learn more about all the newest Teams features at microsoft.com/teams.