424: Bypassing Putrid Pop’s Repulsive Proclivities | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Bypassing Putrid Pop’s Repulsive Proclivities | Feedback Friday (Episode 424)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Hey, before I forget, I wanted to mention that Gabe and I are going to be doing a live episode of the show, not live in person because you know COVID but live in this app called Stereo. You can find that in the iOS app store and Gabriel and I will be broadcasting live this Friday, November 6tth, at 2:00 p.m. Pacific time, Friday, November 6th, 2:00 p.m. Pacific time. We're going to do a bunch of these— actually, a handful in any case — and the first one is Friday, November 6th, 2:00 p.m. Gabriel Mizrahi and I. Topic is going to be TBD, but we're going to do something like a Deep Dive. You'll be able to chat with us inside the app as well. You'll be able to send us questions. We might be able to get to those. We're sort of feeling out this process here, but go grab the Stereo app in the App Store and tune in to us. And I'm Jordan Harbinger inside the Stereo app. You can find me; I've got an eye patch. That's how you can find me. This Friday, November 6th, 2:00 p.m. Pacific time, me and Gabe, catch us live.

[00:01:01] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my comrade in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I think we should change brilliant to fascinating, Gabe. Some of the people that we talked to they're fascinating. I don't know if they're brilliant. I'm not naming any names, but I'm just saying maybe in the next copy, we can —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:01:29] Are you perhaps referring to somebody whose episode is dropping this week or —?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:33] No, no, no, no, no, no. This is completely unrelated. I promise. It's just that when I read that I went, "Are they all brilliant? I don't know. I don't know." Anyway, we turned their practical wisdom into advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. See, they're all amazing, but they're not necessarily all brilliant. That's my only qualm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:01:53] I hear you. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:54] Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so that you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside of your own mind. 

[00:02:04] If you're new to this show on Fridays, that's today, whatever day it is for you, it's still Friday for us. We give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of — I won't say brilliant but fascinating folks from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, thinkers, performers. For a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests, popular topics, go on over to jordanharbinger.com. We'll hook you right up. 

[00:02:29] This week, we had Billy McFarland. If you haven't heard that name, I don't blame you, but he'd started Fyre Fest, which was a total catastrophe. He did an interview with us. This was his first interview ever with any media of any kind from prison. It was from prison.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:44] Damn.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:44] Yeah. So —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:45] I'm sorry. How did that lineup? I can't imagine that was as easy as calling his publicist.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:50] That was not, there is no publicist to be had. No. I got friends in low places I think is the moral of that story. And I scooped the New York Times. We scooped. To be fair, the whole team was involved. We scooped the New York Times, Vanity Fair, and everyone else, we got him first and it was fascinating. And he said some surprising things. I will leave it to you to listen to that episode, released earlier this week. That's Billy McFarland. We also had Celeste Headlee who's a journalist over at NPR. She's an expert on conversation. I think she's great. She's absolutely brilliant. Now that is a qualified brilliant, right there. She's brilliant. When it comes to having better and more productive conversations. You'll dig that one as well. 

[00:03:27] I also write every so often on the blog, my latest piece — our latest piece — If You are "Too Busy to Respond, You are Doing Something Wrong. It's all about the silly excuses people make for not being on top of their inboxes, their texts, their communications, and how not being responsive, not making everyday relationships a priority, how that can be and most likely is holding you back in some pretty major ways. Gabriel, I don't know about you. When I see somebody who has like 72 unread texts, I get — is there a word for like anxiety that I catch contagiously by osmosis by being near that person? I just can't deal with that. That's my own stuff. I get it but who has unread texts in that amount? Here's the thing on the iPhone, you can't mark texts as unread. That just means they have never seen those texts. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:15] Good point. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:15] What? How are you surviving day-to-day? That's what I'm wondering. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:18] You have digital anxiety by proxy — I believe is probably the technical term for the —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:23] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:23] — horror that you're describing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:24] Oh it's so awful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:25] That's seeing somebody's screen. Yeah, it is weird. I don't know if I saw that I would probably freak out. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:29] Yeah. Anyway, make sure you've had a look and listen to all that. The articles are at jordanharbinger.com/articles. Podcasts are where you're listening to it right now. You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. If you want to write into Feedback Friday, please keep your emails as concise as you can, try to include a descriptive subject line that really makes our job a whole lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or maybe you need a new perspective on stuff — life love, work, how to outrun the Eastern European mafia, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help. We do keep every writer anonymous. Go figure — some of these people's names that we say on the show, we just make them up. You can never tell. 

[00:05:13] By the way, the weirdest thing happened to me this week. Gabriel, I know I called you about this, but I wanted to share it here on the show. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:19] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to understand this because it's still freaking bizarre. I don't quite understand it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:24] It was so weird. So I walk and read. So I read audiobooks, listen to audiobooks and I was walking —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:30] Nerd. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:30] Yeah. Nerd alert. Yes. So I was walking around my neighborhood wearing like one of those Korean grandma hats that keep the sun off of you, which is what I do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:38] I'm sorry — a what?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:39] You don't know about Korean grandma hats? They have a face shield and a giant neck thing so that you don't get any sun on you. You haven't seen these?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:46] Oh, kind of like, is it like a visor?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:47] Huge brim. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:48] But it's not a visor?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:49] Take an old lady gardener brim. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:50] Okay. Okay. Okay. I've never heard of it. It's a great image.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:53] So I wear a landscaper shirt, which is like a really thick, long sleeve shirt. That's about bright yellow or as bright orange as you can get. So a lot of people think I'm like a landscaper, but I'm just a weirdo walking around the neighborhood, reading books about —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:06] Easy mistake to make with you. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:08] Yeah, it really is honestly. And so I dictate notes sometimes because it's easier to speak if I have like a longer sentence than just whipping out my phone and typing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:17] It definitely sound like a crazy person. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:19] Yeah, I was walking around, talking to myself while wearing a gardening outfit in the hot sun for miles at a time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:25] You're like a 5150, just walking down the streets.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:29] It is definitely awkward. So I'm dictating and normally it works fine. And a couple of days ago, whatever it was, I'm dictating and I'm going like, "Okay, so in his office," I can't remember what was I saying? Like, "In the office, they make sure that everyone has a chance to learn during the meetings," or whatever thing I was trying to dictate into my notes for the show, and all these gibberish sentences kept going into the Google Docs. So I restart the Google Docs app. I turn off dictation, turn it back on. It doesn't help. Put my AirPods back, put them back on. It doesn't help, all of this gibberish. And then I finally started reading — instead of just deleting the gibberish out of my notes. I started reading it and I would say something like this company has existed for 150 years. And what would get dictated into the Google Docs would be something like, "I can hear you from inside the machine." And I was freaking —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:16] What does that mean?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:16] — out. Yeah. First of all, what does that mean? Second of all, it happened over and over. I would delete that and then I'd go, "No, this company is 150 years old." And it would say, "I can barely hear you. Can you speak loudly?" And then there'd be more gibberish. Like I wasn't exactly that sentence. And I would just say it again and again, and it would say something like, "Am I crazy, or are you crazy?" And I was just thinking of like, "I don't know the answer to that question. What's wrong with me? What's happening right now?" 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:40] I'm sorry. This is the creepiest — I didn't quite understand what you were trying to tell me on the phone because I think you were so freaked out. I couldn't quite understand what was happening, but like, what is this? Is this like an AI prank or is this like Google programmed some joke into — like Easter egg into their AI.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:55] That had occurred to me. So I tried a different app. Same thing was happening. Then I was like, "Okay, the phone is messed up." Reboot the phone, no change. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:03] Oh, wow. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:04] I was like, okay, this is bizarre. So I think the 20/20 hindsight, what I think happened because I don't believe in supernatural stuff or anything like that — I think I was using Bluetooth AirPods. It may be connected to multiple devices at once. And somebody inside their house was either messing with me or at a movie playing or was talking and also heard me talking to their computer or something like that. And they heard my voice coming — like somewhere in my neighborhood, there's somebody going, "No, I swear that the Bluetooth speaker was talking to me." I swear this happened. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:35] Yeah, somebody else has a creepy story. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:37] Yeah. They were talking about meetings and I was just like, "Who are you? What are you doing?" 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:41] Right. Like, "150 years? What does that mean? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:43] Yeah. What is he trying to tell him? What is my Bluetooth speaker trying to tell me?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:47] That's creepy though. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:48] It was something like that. Yeah. But it gave me a kind of a perspective on mental illness because I really thought for a second, "I go, okay, this is not a prank. This is really happening. But is it though? Or am I crazy? Like, am I having a weird hallucination in my neighborhood?" So I stopped. I took my sunglasses off. I'm rubbing my eyes and looking around and taking a deep breath. I called you because I was like, "Okay. Am I being weird right now? Like, am I talking funny? What's happening?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:17] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:17] Because if I called you and you were like, "Hey, are you okay? You sound weird. You're slurring." And I'm like, "I'm fine." Then I would realize it was me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:23] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:23] But I just couldn't find the explanation for it. So it gave me kind of a bit of compassion for mental illness. And then also if you look for an explanation and you convince yourself that something is true, you can find patterns and things that aren't really there and this is called patternicity. Michael Shermer talked about it on the show a long time ago. We're going to bring that episode out of the vault, but it's called patternicity. And it has to do with the fact that humans look for patterns in anything. And I went back to the Google Docs and I looked at some of the things that I dictated because I stopped deleting after a while. And it didn't exactly say with no extraneous words, "I can hear you from inside the machine." It said things like, "Hello? Who? What? Okay. I can hear you inside the machine," and then something else, right? Maybe another word is thrown in there. But all I read was, "I can hear you from inside the machine," which obviously scared the living daylights out of me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:10:11] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:12] So that was the kind of thing that I went, "Wait a minute. Okay. I'm actually convincing myself more that this is happening." It also reminded me — the third bullet here, it reminded me of the Mark Edwards episode from a couple of weeks ago where he's doing fake psychic readings and he's saying, "Oh, you know, everyone thinks you're really caring. Also, you have an adventure in your future," and everyone's like, "Adventure? Huh? Well, that's in the future. I can't just prove that." "Oh, you have a lot of animals in your house," and they're like, "Ah, I don't really have any animals, but my friends do think I'm a caring person," and you forget about the stuff that's wrong and you look at the stuff that actually matches what you want to believe about yourself. Since I didn't think I was crazy and since I was looking for a pattern, I saw that something was happening, but then I eventually figured out, "Okay, this has to be the technology issue." And I ended up resetting the AirPods and walking away from that area and it went away and they're fine. And it's never happened again. But it got me thinking like our brains are so good at tricking us. Even when there isn't anything there, your brain is going to go, "Wait, I got to make sense of all this data."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:10] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:10] And it will make sense of the data, even if there's no sense to be had.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:14] Even if there's no data —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:15] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:15] — points supporting that. Yeah. You'll just ignore the ones and take the ones you do want or that your brain wants. That's interesting. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:20] Yeah. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:21] Yeah. I get it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:22] So that was an interesting sort of segue. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:23] If that happened to me, I would have freaked out, man. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:25] I mean I was a little nervous first. I was just pissed because it was like, "Oh, it's so frustrating that my dictation's not working." And then I started reading it and I was like, "Oh, okay. What the F? What is happening?" 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:35] Like, I can deal with somebody being like, "What? Sorry, I didn't catch that." But somebody being like, "I'm speaking to you from inside the machine."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:41] "The call is coming from inside the house," right? Yeah. That's what it was.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:44] It was like, what the hell? Yeah. At first, it was an inconvenience, but then as soon as my brain saw the pattern, that kind of rise out of it, that's when I was looking around like, good thing, it's not dark outside. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:54] Right. You're like, "I'm not in an anime after all." 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:57] Exactly. Yeah. Scream seven. 

[00:11:59] Oh, also in a brief announcement, I have a course on how to do a podcast interview. A lot of people ask me this. It's out, right now, some of you probably found it already because I mentioned it casually in a couple of earlier episodes and on social media, it's available at jordanharbinger.com/howtointerview. No spaces. Stay tuned after the episode, this episode, at the very end, after the show closed and everything for a snippet from the course. You can also go to jordanharbinger.com/how to interview to buy. I did it in concert with Himalaya and it's affordable. I think it's like 40 bucks. I haven't tracked the price recently. I know it's going to go up and down with sales, but it's very affordable. It's literally like under 50 bucks, it might even be under 40 bucks. All right, that's jordanharbinger.com/howtointerview and it's all my super cool secrets of experience over time. It's not what microphone to buy. It's literally like how to research and conduct an interview for podcasting. You don't need it. If you're trying to get a job interview or do anything like that, it is for content creators and it's something I did with Himalaya. 

Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:04] Hey gang. I have a five-year-old and my brother has a four-year-old and a six-month-old. We want my dad — who's a great grandpa — to spend as much time with them as possible. The problem is my father has terrible hygiene. My dad will go number two and not wash his hands. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:19] Gross.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:20] Gross. 

[00:13:21] We don't hear water and the sink is dry. We live far away as well. So he has to stay for days when he comes to visit. He showers on average once every three days. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:30] Well, wait, hold on, plot twist — maybe he doesn't even wipe. Clean hands. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:34] I don't —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:36] Never mind. The odds of that are slim. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:38] I don't know, man, after this, I don't know what —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:40] How can you not wipe. You have to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:41] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:41] There's no bidet. They would have mentioned the bidet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:43] I want to live in a world where this guy's dad wipes. That's what I want to live in. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:47] But just doesn't wash his hands afterwards. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:49] Yeah. That's just me. I'm just — you know, I'm an optimist, whatever. 

[00:13:53] We've mentioned it before. We've gotten angry. We've joked about it. We placed hand sanitizer around the house for hints. We remind him that fresh towels are in the bathroom. We've even embarrassed him, but nothing changes. He reaches his hands in the chip bag. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:05] No! Ugh. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:07] Obviously. those are his now. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:09] Totally good way of keeping the chips to yourself. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:11] Our kids ask for food and he tries to feed them. We sprint across the room to stop him. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:16] Oh, gross.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:17] I cringe when he holds the new baby, we don't want to offend him, but we need better hygiene. It makes all visits, a complete stress fest. Our kids are now becoming scared to touch grandpa. Are we overreacting here? 

[00:14:30] I think you already know the answer to that. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:32] Oh, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:33] If not, how do we address this? And what if nothing changes? Signed, Dealing with Dad's Dastardly Dishevelment.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:41] Wow. Nice one. Man, this first question stinks. Huh, Gabriel?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:46] Oh man. That was low hanging fruit, but it was the correct fruit.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:50] Look, this email — that joke was cringed, but this email makes me really cringe —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:53] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:54] Especially as a dad of a toddler, as you could tell by that dad joke a minute ago. Look right now, especially not washing your hands — bad in general, but not washing your hands when the corona could be crawling all over them. Literal nightmare. Yeah, this is a problem. And the sad part is your dad is great at being a grandfather. He is not some car McGinley wanker you have to deal with while you happen to smell like a UFC fighter's jockstrap. That would be much easier.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:19] That would be easier. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:20] That would be easier. This guy is sweet. You want them around. He's making it very difficult. Look, on the bright side, your kids' immune systems are going to be super strong but really, really nasty. That is so gross. And it's dangerous. Look, this is tough because my advice would have been to bring it up with him directly. Crack a few jokes so he doesn't feel embarrassed, hope that he gets it. Ratchet it up a little bit. Maybe put some social pressure on him and embarrass him. You've already tried that and he still won't change. You put towels by the fridge as a reminder, there's Purell in his underwear drawer. I mean, he's just not taking the hint. So look, you could keep a bunch of Clorox wipes around the house if you can find some. I haven't been able to find any since we thought Kim Jong-un was temporarily dead back in April. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:01] That is the last time we heard about Clorox wipes. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:03] Yeah, they're just gone. You can't get them. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:05] Nope. Entire aisle full of Rite Aid is just empty.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:16:09] I feel like you've got to physically wipe down your dad's hands before he reaches into the bag of Sunchips, but you can't be everywhere at once and I'm not sure that's even practical. I can imagine, Gabe, this person just getting PTSD when they hear the chip bag crinkle because they're like, "There's dad ruining the snack item. What is it? What bag can I not touch now?" 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:26] 35 years later, they can't open up a bag of Pringles.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:29] Yeah, if somebody opens up some Fritos and they're like, "Ooh, I got to take a shower. It's a thing. Sorry. It's a thing. I got to do it."

[00:16:35] So to answer your question, are we overreacting here? Definitely not. I don't think it's crazy to expect grandpa to wash his gross, gross hands before he holds the little Cody and digs into your bag of SkinnyPop. There's a freaking pandemic going on. This would be important in normal times. During COVID, non-negotiable. We know this virus is transmitted through the mouth and nose and eyes often via people's hands. So, no, you're not. You're not being Howard Hughes over here. You're being totally responsible, reasonable. The one upside though is like I said, your kids are going to have super strong immune systems. They are going to be immune to a lot of stuff that comes their way, but maybe don't get them super sick with E. coli and other gross things. I'm surprised your dad doesn't get sick all the time. I guess he's probably gone through it already. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:20] Bro, this guy went through the pandemic of 1918 and he made it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:23] He made it, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:23] I think he's probably just made of stronger stuff than we are. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:25] He's like, "I was in the Korean War. We didn't have Purell." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:28] Exactly. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:28] So how do you address this? I would have one more conversation where you really lay it out there. Tell them your concerns bluntly. Explain why this is so important. Blame it on COVID if it helps. Maybe taking the attention off of him and onto the virus will help. In this conversation, I would lay out the consequences if he doesn't change. Tell him, "If you don't start washing your hands and taking showers, we can't have you over and you can't play with the kids. It's not a punishment. It's a health thing." Also, make him understand why you are so concerned. Tell him how poor personal hygiene, especially in older people can lead to all sorts of serious outcomes: skin infections, bacterial and fungal infestations — which is, ugh gross — gastroenteritis could happen and how it can lead to other conditions like septicemia, which is blood poison basically. Tell him, you are asking to improve his hygiene for his own benefit, as well as for his kids and grandkids. You know, don't make it about you. Make it about him and the grandkids. And if he doesn't care about himself, make it about the grandkids. Really give it one more shot so that you know you did everything you could to help your dad understand that this is a problem before you make a more drastic decision.

[00:18:37] If nothing changes though, then you got to make a decision that works for you. Maybe he can only come over for a day, not for days at a time, if that's even possible if he lives close enough. Maybe he has to stay at a motel nearby one with lots of soap that he won't ever use. Maybe he can't directly interact with your kids. You just can't be around them without you guys there to wipe his hands down. This will come down to your standards and values as a parent and every parent is different. I know this just from my own prefs here. You'll have to weigh keeping your kids safe against giving them the joy of hanging out with grandpa. But like I said, there are objective health concerns at play here. The hardest part will probably be hurting his feelings and depriving him of time with his grandchildren. But that is something you can tell him as well. "I really don't want to keep you away from them, but if you don't wash your hands, this is going to become a problem."

[00:19:25] Gabe any other thoughts here. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:27] Well, no, I think that's really fair advice. I do wonder though if his age is playing a role here, did you think about this just as an older man. The letter didn't say whether this hygiene thing was, you know, a new problem or had always been a thing with him, but if it is a new thing and I kind of get the sense that it is, then there might be a little bit of cause for concern. Older people, you know, they, they do tend to fall off sometimes in their hygiene for a few reasons. One common one is dulling senses in general, a lot of the time, like they just can't see or smell if it's time to change clothes or take a shower. I think that's called nose blindness.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:58] Interesting. I've never thought about that. That's so true though. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:01] But another one — and the one that I'm wondering about — is depression. You know, depression, by the way, that could be harder to spot in older people because of the signs of depression, fatigue, or irritability, or lack of interest. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:11] Describes all old people pretty much, not all. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:14] Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:15] Not me. Old people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:16] I mean, it can look a lot, like getting older in general, and there are other reasons for poor hygiene as well. There's a desire for control and people being afraid or uncomfortable around having to have someone make them bathe. I mean, it's awkward, right? Yeah. And there's always cognitive impairment, like dementia, but I don't know if that's going on. I think we would have heard about it, but depression and cognitive impairment, those are the two things that I would look out for with your dad. What seems to you like a lack of interest and just staying clean, it could just be that, but it also could be a sign of something else. Worth finding out. The conditions that cause cognitive impairment. They do come with other behavioral changes, sensitivity to stimuli, or a struggle to keep track of time. And if you put all those things together, you can start to understand why somebody of his age wouldn't cozy up with some old spice. 

[00:20:58] So I'm thinking, has he seen a doctor recently? Maybe you should take him to his primary care physician and tell him what you're noticing. A PCP could give them a basic cognitive assessment, order of labs, and maybe get a picture of how your dad is doing in general. And if he needs more attention, then you can take him to a neurologist or possibly a psychiatrist if — if you notice any mood-related changes. That'll tell you more about what's going on with him and hopefully get your dad the help he needs if he needs it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:22] Aging parents, man, you don't think it'll happen to you until it does. It makes me think about how I tell my dad that he needs to sing the happy birthday song twice through while he washes his hands before holding Jayden. Awkward. But also, a good reminder that it's something we just got to do for our parents at some point. My dad, though, he's a bathroom door handle toucher like he'll wash his hands, flick the water off, in a public restroom and then just go and touch the gross handle. And then he's like, "All right, let's go eat some pizza." And I'm like, "You, sir, are not touching anything that's going anywhere near me." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:54] See, that's what I'm talking about. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:55] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:55] Their generation, they're made of different stuff. He's made it this long. He's probably fine. But you and I, after COVID, there's no way —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:01] No way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:01] —we're doing that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:02] But I was also never — I remember being like four and my dad touched the handle and I go, "Dad, the handle is yucky." And he'd be like, "Whatever." And I'm like, "Nope, I was right." I was like a four-year-old, I was like, "You are gross, yeah" 

[00:22:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:14] You were also a non-door-handle toucher for years. I remember when we both walked out of the PodcastOne and we both took our paper towels with us from the dispenser to the door.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:23] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:24] And there wasn't a trash can by the door. And we were like, "What kind of people are they catering to here?" 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:28] I'm throwing it on the floor. I'm throwing this on the floor.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:31] Then you become that guy. That's — which is not fair to anybody.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:34] No. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:34] But that's what has to be done. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:35] What am I going to do? Put it in my pocket. No, absolutely not. You walk into the office like, "Hey, is there a garbage can for this paper towel?" That I definitely took from the men's room because I'm the non-door-handle. Now, though, I have no shame. I'm like, "Look, what? Somebody throw this away. Give me a garbage can. I'm not touching the handle. Disgusting."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:52] Such Rockstar behavior.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:53] Fucking diva now. Absolutely. I'd open my own door. Okay. This place has gone downhill. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:00] Just throw it in the director's face of the podcast.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:02] Or producer, "Here, eat this." Oh my God. 

[00:23:10] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

[00:23:15] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator. Believe me, I used to be one of those people who thought nobody looked at websites anymore, and I assumed that everyone went straight to social media. Well, guess what? I was wrong. A recent study shows that 63 percent of consumers still use websites to find new businesses and 30 percent of consumers won't even consider a business if they don't have a website. So what's stopping you from building yours? Too much work, too expensive, you don't know how to go about it, don't worry about that. HostGator has plans that start at two dollars and 64 cents a month. And let's be honest, that's cheaper than some parking meters. HostGator is even giving our awesome listeners — that's you — up to 62 percent off all packages for new users with a 45-day complete money-back guarantee. With over a hundred mobile templates to choose from and 24/7, 365 support, you're never going to be at a loss when it comes to the most important promotion tool your business needs. And if you're still worried, it's not going to be legit enough, HostGator gives you unlimited email addresses that mirror your website domain, so you can make the best possible impression. No more AOL domains and Gmail business addresses. So it's time to make it official. Go to hostgator.com/jordan right now to get started. That's hostgator.com/jordan. 

[00:24:24] This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Here's the thing about home security companies. Most of them, trap you with high prices, tricky contracts, and lousy customer support. So while there are a lot of options out there, there's only one no-brainer, SimpliSafe. They sent us this thing. I thought this thing — I get frustrated with technology. Jen will tell you. I threw this thing together in seconds. SimpliSafe has everything you need to protect your home. None of the drawbacks of traditional home security. There's an arsenal of sensors and cameras. You can blanket every room, window, door. Tailored specifically for your home. Professional monitoring keeps watch day and night, ready to send police, fire, medical if there's an emergency. Set it up yourself in under an hour. And I mean, literally, like under — even 30 minutes, it took us to set this thing up. You peel and stick the sensors exactly where you need them. You don't need a tech in your house. There's no contract. There's no pushy sales guys. No '90s security gear, hidden fees, none of that stuff. All this starts at 15 bucks. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:25:18] Try simply save today at simplisafe.com/jordan. You get free shipping and a 60-day risk-free trial. There's nothing to lose. That's simplisafe.com/jordan. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:29] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:25:34] All right, what's next. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:25:36] Oh man. Okay. 

[00:25:37] Hi, Jordan. I've been a stay-at-home mom for the last 10 years, right out of college. And we'd like to find a career to ease into over the next decade. My husband and I will be empty nesters in our early 40s and plan to be financially free before then. My husband is starting to show some signs of neurodegenerative disease —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:54] Ooh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:25:54] — and depending on how quickly things progress. There may come a time soon when he won't be able to be the breadwinner. So it's my turn to start bringing in an income preferably part-time.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:03] That terrifies me actually. As a 40-year-old now, I'm like, "Oh my God, we're not invincible." The feeling of invincibility you have when your '20s and early '30s goes away. And then it is quickly replaced by not only am I not invincible, but life is really fragile, especially now some of that's COVID, but the fact that like people at my age are getting neurodegenerative diseases is absolutely terrifying. Unbelievable. Sorry to hear this. Anyway, continue. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:26:28] I've always been interested in becoming a mental health therapist, but that would require quite a big investment of time and money. My therapist suggested I look into becoming a life coach because of the flexibility with where and when to work. And I'd be able to help people with wellness instead of things like trauma. I'm hesitant to pursue this path because it feels like it might be too much of a hustle, but the other issue is that I want to be legitimate and well-qualified for whatever I do. I do not want to feel like an impostor. I don't want to tell people I can help them and then not really be able to help them. If I do go the life coach route, are there any well-respected programs or schools you would recommend? Do you have any advice for someone thinking about becoming a life coach or do you think I should run the other direction and do something like HR, which is another career option? That sounds interesting to me but wouldn't require that huge initial investment to get started. Signed, Taking the Out of Life Coach. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:17] Hmm. Okay. So look, I know, I make fun of life coaches a lot here on the show, but to be fair, they're kind of an easy target. There are just too many of them these days, especially the ones you see promoting themselves on Instagram, social media. People who woke up one day on their mom's couch, half the time, not knowing what they wanted to do. And they thought, "Hey, why don't I tell other people what to do," which I find a little suspicious at best. A good rule of thumb for finding a coach is, have they succeeded at something other than coaching before they became a coach? It doesn't have to be the thing that you want to do. There are plenty of coaches that are great tennis coaches that never won the French Open but have they succeeded at anything other than coaching. Sports coaching may be the difference here, Gabriel, I think because there are world-class coaches that just have a proven track record that you can measure. Like he's got three Super Bowls. He's a good coach.

] Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:28:09] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:10] Right. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:28:10] That's fair.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:10] But life coaches or financial coaches, it's like, "Hmm, I'm not so sure about this." Is being a coach, their only real qualification? I'm not saying 100 percent of coaches need to live up to that standard. I'm sure that there are some incredible coaches who found their calling early on and are fantastic at what they do. But that does weed out a lot of the people who just did an online certification course from their childhood bedroom and started telling people they met at the gym, how to curate their life because they couldn't cut it in retail or whatever. Unfortunately, life coaching is an industry with little/really no oversight, loose standards, if any standards at all, which invites a lot of questionable folks, peddling questionable ideas that are rooted in pseudoscience. They've no performance background whatsoever. Like you said, most of the time, it's just too much of a hustle, but all right, let's talk about you. 

[00:29:01] I got to say, I love the way that you are approaching this question. You're not one of the people I was just talking about. You actually want to be a value. You actually want to be qualified. You don't just think you are already because of your life experience or something. You actually want to make a difference. You don't want to be a bullshit artist, walking your clients through some manifestation exercise, you learned 20 minutes ago on Tumblr. I admire that. I really do. And I'm very sorry to hear about your husband, by the way, like I said, that's horrible. I'm sure it puts a lot of pressure on you to make the right choice here. For what it's worth, you sound like a responsible and thoughtful person. Those are two qualities that will serve you very well in whatever you choose to do.

[00:29:40] So here's my advice on becoming a life coach, so to speak. If you feel called to that kind of work, I think you should explore it, but do a lot of homework before you dive in. First, do some research on how the best life coaches out there have trained. I'm talking like the top five, 10 percent of coaches. Do they have a degree in psychology, social work? Did they get certified at the same one or two institutes? Did they go to some kind of self-directed research? Do they have additional training in organizational leadership, performance science, conflict resolution, mediation, meditation, anything like that? I don't know. Do they have their own coach? Try to piece together a common curriculum from the people who are doing the best version of what you want to do. 

[00:30:25] And don't believe the hype on social media. Right? There's a lot of people that I'll have like 200,000 followers and they're like, "I'm a life coach." Really? Did they just buy followers? Do they write for a blog like Forbes or Entrepreneur where you get the little blue checkmark, and now you're thinking, "Oh, they're doing so many great things"? How do you know? How do you know that they are? How do you know they're even successful? Are they just selling coaching courses? Don't work with those people. See if you can replicate the successful people in your own way — what they are doing — in your own. 

[00:30:52] I actually don't even know which life-coaching programs are supposed to be good. I'm sure you could Google your way to that answer pretty easily. My only advice there is this just as I said earlier, do not follow the marketing. Don't follow Google ads, don't follow sponsored posts. Look for the programs that get mentioned organically, or that show up in people's bio's a lot, even many of those are going to end up being scams, frankly. Do your homework on those programs. Read up on their alumni testimonials, which are often fake by the way, their ratings, their press reviews can be fake. Anything can be a scam, but life coaching is much more rife with scams than most other places. Any kind of coaching these days is very trendy. Don't take anyone's word for it. Really do your due diligence before handing over your money to any of these places. 

[00:31:39] The next thing I would do is find out what being a life coach really actually means. Reach out to a handful of working life coaches. I say working because way too many of these types of people, they spend their days, bullet journaling and drinking eight-dollar matcha latte is at a vegan cafe. Probably near Gabe's house, somewhere. Get to know them, ask if you can book 15 minutes with them by phone, and find out what the day-to-day of this job is really like. Don't fall for — they're like, "Oh, I need to get an assessment going and find —" No. Just find out what the day-to-day of the job is really like. And if you can shadow somebody for a day or two, then great. Tell them you're not in the market to become one of their clients. You are trying to become a coach yourself. Many of them will turn you down and that's fine.

[00:32:23] How long does it take to build up a successful practice? If things went well, would you enjoy seeing four, six clients a day? Are you willing to spend the rest of your time attracting new clients and selling? Can you realistically become financially free by being a part-time life coach? We'll get into what these people get paid later. What hourly rate will you have to hit in order to make enough money? And what exactly do you want to specialize in? Is it work? Dating? Spirituality? Aging? Wellness? Do you want to focus on individuals? Executives? Companies? Do you want to do the marketing work to build your practice around that specialty? Because you're definitely going to have to do that. That's going to be the majority of what you do probably. Will you need an LLC or a business type insurance? You're going to have to do a lot of work around the actual coaching. So it's important to know what that really entails, and if you're up to the task. 

[00:33:12] And this is not unique to life coaching, by the way. This is true of every single job that seems interesting. There is always a huge part of it that just sucks or is not even sort of inside the core. It's important to know what that is before you're into deep. This show has tons of marketing and finance and negotiation, and I've got to do this and that and manage this and that and these people and these teams. It's not just — read books, talk to smart people. I've designed it so that's the majority of my time, but it certainly isn't all of it. I spent years coaching and consulting and I spent so much more time on admin, lead generation, sales than I ever did on actual coaching. I had to hire coaches to coach because I was the only one who could do lead gen, sales, admin. By the time I had enough resources to scale, I was so sick of coaching. I'm telling you a true story. 

[00:33:58] Also, you're going to spend a ton of time finding clients, closing clients. A ton of time trying to convince those leads, you're not like the other 10,000 life coaches that came up on Google when they were searching. Then you got to collect their money. You've got to chase them. That's the problem in an industry with no certification, no barrier to entry. And that is filled to the brim with con men and 20 somethings, which the life coaching industry really is. Con men and 20 somethings that just don't want to get jobs. They're hustling on the Internet. 

[00:34:24] You might not want to play that game. I know, I sure don't. I would also get clear on what qualities a good life coach needs to have. Gabe, I don't know. Do you want to take it from here? I feel like you're pretty good at this kind of stuff. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:35] Well, I just want to say that I agree with everything you've just shared. Jordan, but this woman does seem particularly thoughtful as you pointed out. And if she did decide to go down this path, I'm pretty confident she would not be like any of these other people. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:47] No, no, she won't 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:48] Yeah, I know I don't think you think so either, but I just want to be super clear because the upside to having an industry that's filled with a bunch of — as you put it — con men and questionable folks, is that the ones who are actually good really do rise to the top. It might take a shit ton of marketing to get noticed and to get to that point but people are so desperate for good life coaching that the really, really good ones do stand out. So that's something to keep in mind alongside this. But as for the qualities that make a good life coach good, I don't know, I mean, in my view, a great coach has to genuinely love watching other people succeed. They have to be empathic toward other people. They have to be super invested in their struggles, their successes. They have to be patient. They have to be willing to help somebody work through a difficult challenge and not just want to solve that problem for them, or, you know, rush them through the solution. 

[00:35:33] In many ways, the relationship is similar to that of a therapist and a patient, but the rules are much fuzzier. That goes to the lack of regulations that you were talking about, which is fair. I mean, that's a different industry. But there's more emphasis on work and end results. And are those the qualities that you already have or are they qualities that you'd like to develop? I think that's a good question. Is that a relationship you would enjoy having with people, most of the time? That's another good question. You know, if you do decide to pursue this kind of work, then I would recommend trying it out for a few months. 

[00:36:00] Here's an idea. You could approach two or three people you know and tell them, "I'm thinking about becoming a life coach. I want to learn more about the role. Would you be interested in having me coach you for free for three months?" Let's say, and they would basically get free coaching, which is great. And you would get a sort of low-pressure internship. It's a win-win. And then coach them for a few months and see what happens. And that'll teach you the most you can learn about the coaching dynamic, what people will actually need from their coach, what you need to develop, where you need to develop as a coach. Or it'll teach you that you really don't like this kind of work at all. And that it's not for you, in which case you can pursue another path like HR, and you can know that you made the right choice.

[00:36:36] But basically, I think what Jordan and I are trying to tell you is that you want to make sure that you will enjoy this work and that you can actually help people in a meaningful way. And I know that that's what you want to do too. You said you want to be legit. You said you want to be well-qualified. You don't want to feel like an imposter. I really admire that. But to do that, you have to be willing to put in a ton of work. And that basically means doing, the basic training that every life coach goes through for sure but it also means deepening your knowledge around psychology and health and wellness and becoming more curious and more empathetic and more informed, and basically just developing your capacity for close relationships with your clients and putting in hours and hours to get good as a coach.

[00:37:11] So you have to constantly be a student, I think, to want to thrive at that kind of work and to always be learning about what makes people tick and how to make them better. So if you really love it, and if you could see yourself being super committed to it, and you do think that you can be truly useful, then I think you could be a great life coach, but those are the questions that you have to answer. And honestly, I wish all life coaches approach the decision the way you are, if they did the profession wouldn't be so wishy-washy and we would not be able to make fun of them nearly as much as we do on the show. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:38] By the way, before we wrap this one, I do want to go over the average annual earnings, according to PayScale. This should dissuade you and everyone else from becoming a life coach. Okay, California, $35,650. New York, $37,000 roughly, Colorado $50,000. I guess the life coaches are more in demand in Colorado. There's probably less of them. So they have more clients. Alaska $60,000, Tennessee $23,000, $24,000 basically. The moral moved to Alaska. If you want to become a life coach unless you want to drive for Lyft to bolster your salary and pay for that Audible subscription. So it's not super lucrative. This is not something — you'll be better off going in school and becoming an actual therapist in my opinion. Again, I don't want to slam life coaches too much, but it's not a great gig, generally speaking, for most people.

[00:38:31] This is the Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:38:36] This episode is sponsored in part by IPVanish. If you're using public Wi-Fi. And even if you're not, there's a lot of danger and insecure Internet connections. Do you think your home connection is secure? Think again, hackers, advertisers, predators. They're looking for stuff like private data, banking info, credit card info, emails, passwords, even personal photos if you really want to creep yourself out. You need a VPN like IPVanish. IPVanish uses military-grade encryption, and they have a zero-log policy. So they never record your Internet activity. They never know what sites you're browsing, what applications you're using online. IPVanish is also very easy to set up and they offer 24/7 live customer support through telephone, live chat, or email. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:39:17] Go to ipvanish.com/jordan to save 73 percent off your subscription and protect your entire family today. That's ipvanish.com/jordan. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:27] This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. If you think you might be depressed, you're feeling overwhelmed, anxious, maybe super lonely, especially right now in COVID times, Better Help offers licensed online counselors who are trained to listen and help. Everything's private. Everything's online. Everything is at your own convenience. There's so much that people are dealing with right now, whether you've lost your job or someone close to you, or you're just feeling isolated which, I mean, that's even getting to me and I live with a bunch of people. So I can only imagine how people feel when they live alone and they're doing telecommuting and their closest social contact is the Zoom. Better Help also gives you access to help that might not be available in your area. Easily schedule secured video or phone sessions with your therapist plus unlimited messages. Everything is, of course, confidential and you can switch counselors at any time. Join the million-plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced Better Help counselor.

Jen Harbinger: [00:40:17] Better Help is an affordable option and our listeners get 10 percent off your first month with a discount code JORDAN. Get started today at betterhelp.com/jordan. Talk to a therapist online and get help. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:30] This episode is also sponsored by Georgetown MBA. With a Georgetown MBA, you can take your career anywhere. Thanks to a focus on versatile skills and experience that translate across a range of industries in a variety of roles. Diversity and inclusion are essential to the Georgetown MBA experience. From day one, you'll interact with classmates who contribute a variety of professional, personal, and cultural perspectives. Georgetown's collaborative, supportive community of students, professors, mentors, and career advisors work together there to help you achieve your goals. The recruiter insights report from Bloomberg BusinessWeek rated Georgetown MBAs as the world's most innovative and creative graduates and the world's best-trained graduates. You can also benefit from Georgetown's worldwide network of more than 200,000 alumni. As a lifelong member of this global community, you'll enjoy access to professional connections, ongoing education, and more. Explore the full-time and flex MBA programs and discover how Georgetown McDonough can help you launch the career you want at choosegeorgetown.com/mba. 

[00:41:31] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.

[00:41:50] All right, Gabe, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:41:52] Hey, J team. One of my friends in my friend group is an extremely difficult and sometimes rude person. She lacks basic social skills and will often ramble about her interests in a condescending manner as though her opinions are the only ones that matter. She also frequently talks much too loudly, even when my friends and I repeatedly asked her to quiet down, and generally it doesn't seem to have much of a regard for our comfort levels or what's appropriate. It's gotten to the point where other friends in the group have expressed that they don't want to hang out with her anymore and have even started excluding her from group invites, unbeknownst to her. I feel like it's only a matter of time before she realizes that she's being excluded and that most people in the group feel negatively about her. Although the easy answer would be to cut her out of the friend group, it isn't that simple. Most of us have known her since kindergarten. That's almost 20 years. I don't intend on losing her as a friend. We're also the only friends that she has, so cutting her off would likely devastate her. I want to talk to her about being more conscientious, but I don't know how to go about it. I worry that if I say something, I'll only hurt her and make her feel unwanted. Even worse, she suffers from anxiety and depression, so I also worry that it would only trigger a breakdown. How do I tell someone, "Hey, all of your friends find you insufferable and want you to completely change," without completely ruining her? Signed, Tethered, Tired, and Terrified.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:10] Oh, yikes, this is pretty bad. Whoa, wait a minute. Gabe, is this one about me? Be honest. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:16] Yeah. I wrote into the Feedback Friday inbox, hoping that you would see this letter. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:20] Huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:21] That's what I did. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:22] Yikes, look, I can totally relate.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:23] Sorry. Sorry, Jordan, can you just keep it down? Just a little bit.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:27] Yeah, sorry, I know —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:28] Yeah, thanks.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:28] — I'm pretty loud. That actually is true. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:31] Not self-aware at all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:32] I used to get in trouble in kindergarten because I talked a lot, but all the kids would talk but my voice would carry a whole classroom all the way down the hall and be like, "Jordan's so loud," or it was more like, "Jordan's the only one talking." I was like, "No, I'm just louder than everyone else combined."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:43:48] Yeah, you pick the right profession.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:49] Yeah, I guess so, I guess so. It could have been an auctioneer. I can relate to this. Look, I've had a couple of friends like this over the years. No names mentioned and it's always incredibly awkward. Do I say something? Do I not say something? If I do say something, will I be helping them? Or am I humiliating them? Is that even my job? It can be pretty confusing. I'm really sorry that you've been put in this spot. And based on your description, your friend has a lot of stuff she needs to work on, not just with her social skills, but with her mood, personality. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these two things are actually related, but that's between her and her therapist, maybe her life coach, if she hires the woman from the previous letter. 

[00:44:28] If you love your friend as much as I think you do, you said you've been friends for 20 years and that you guys are pretty tight. If you really are that close, I think you actually owe this conversation to her. Sometimes we're afraid to hurt people we love by telling them the truth, but then when we would hold the truth from them, we're not really loving. Right? We're sort of doing what's easiest for us. It's not our job to make our friends feel amazing and validated all of the time. It is our job to make them feel understood and supported, which sometimes means helping them acknowledge something they might not want to acknowledge, even if it's super uncomfortable, even if it's pretty scary for both of you. But like you said, you don't want to hurt her unnecessarily. So here is how I would approach this conversation.

[00:45:11] I'd invite her over to your house or invite yourself over to her house. Carve out a couple of hours to talk. I recommend having this conversation at home because it might get a little intense. You don't want to make her cry into her poke bowl or whatever in public. Is it poh-key bowl or poh-kay bowl? There's a little thing over the E, right? There's a little accent over the E. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:29] I've been saying poh-key for like 10 years but I recently found out that it's poh-kay bowl like, as in like, okay.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:34] Like Pokémon, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:35] Yeah, yeah, but I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to say —

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:38] Whatever, I'm just going to go straight poh-key, forever poh-key for life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:45:43] There it is. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:43] You can become — poh-key has grown on me already. 

[00:45:45] You can begin by telling her how much you love her, how happy you are that you're still friends after all these years, how you hope you can still be friends for a long time. Tell her that you asked to hang out because you wanted to share a few things that you'd noticed, stuff you think would be helpful for you both to talk out. You could even say, "You know, this is really hard for me to talk about because a big part of me feels like I might hurt your feelings here, and I don't want to make you feel anxious or depressed or anything like that. But then I think, you know, If the positions were reversed, I would want to hear it. So that's why I wanted to make some time for us." I would just take a minute to set the stage like that. So she doesn't feel ambushed or misunderstood in some way. Then once you've laid the groundwork, you're going to get into specific behaviors that you mentioned. This is definitely going to be the hardest part for you by the way. I would rehearse this in your head a couple of times in advance.

[00:46:33] I would start by saying something like, "I've noticed a few things that keep coming up when we're all together. And I just wanted to share them with you because I think they might be coming across very differently from how you intend them." That is really important. By the way, don't ascribe intention or motivation to these behaviors. You want to decouple what she's doing from whom she is, fundamentally, as a person. Does that make sense, Gabe? Like you, you don't want the behavior — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:46:59] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:59] — to be, "You are this way." It's like, "This thing you do sometimes that you should change." That's the difference. That'll make it a lot easier for you to say, and it'll also make it a lot easier for her to hear. Then you go through the behaviors, tell her that you notice she rambles about her interests. She sometimes comes across as being more knowledgeable or more important than the people she's talking to. That does sound irritating. And then when she shares her opinions, sometimes it sounds like she thinks her position is the only one that really matters. Tell her that you notice that she talks very loudly when you get together. Guilty as charged. I can relate to that. That even when you guys ask her to be more conscientious, she just won't listen. Keep it all brief. Definitely make it specific. So you're going to, you want to say stuff like, "Hey, remember when we went to the Griddle and Jess was talking about starting that marketing agency with her friend from college, and you said marketing was a bullshit job and you work it with people, you know, is a terrible idea. And then Shay said, lower your voice. And then the family next to us stared at us while they ate their waffles. That kind of thing." You want to get down to it. 

[00:48:02] You want her to be able to recognize the behavior in specific moments, because if you just say, "Ugh, you've been so annoying lately." That doesn't mean anything. She can't change anything. She's just going to think you're crying at her and it's not going to be fun for either of you and it's not going to change anything. Like I said, this is going to be very challenging. You can write this all down. It's not weird if you do that. You're probably going to feel like you're hurting her when you bring this up, by the way, just by pointing out the obvious and in a way you are, she might even have an emotional reaction while you're talking, but you have to be willing to tolerate those feelings back from her in order to have this conversation. Try and say all of this in a kind voice in a gentle voice. Resist the temptation to get angry or judgy or unnecessarily harsh. Make an effort to tell her all of this from a place of love and concern for her rather than judgment or condemnation. 

[00:48:54] Then talk to her about how this behavior is affecting all you guys, help her understand how all of this is starting to push you away. And look, when she goes on and on about her opinions and you guys feel like there isn't much room for your own thoughts, let her know that. Tell her when she talks really loudly, it makes all of you uncomfortable and that when she refuses to lower her voice, it makes you feel like she just doesn't care about your comfort level. And it's starting to make you guys want to spend less time together because she doesn't seem to want a respectful, two-way relationship with you. 

[00:49:25] And this is really key, not just calling out what she's doing, but helping her see the impact and what it is on you because she can deny that she's being annoying or doing any of that stuff or talking too loud. She can do that all she wants, but what she can't do is deny your experience of that behavior. And that's a good technique in general, by the way. If you think someone is going to get defensive during a conflict, you can share your experience of them instead of attacking their behavior directly. Finally, once you've laid all that out, invite her to talk, ask her what her experience has been like, ask her how she feels about the group these days if she's picked up on any of this. Let her explain her behavior, process what you're saying, have whatever reaction she has. Let her get mad. Let her get sad. Let her get embarrassed. Let her get scared. That's all part of this as well. Support her through these feelings. Don't reject her for having them. Try to make this a conversation as much as possible, rather than a lecture just from you.

[00:50:21] Now, if she gets super defensive about all this, if she's like, "Screw you, Emily, you have no right to call me self-absorbed. I'm just doing me. And if you don't like it, you can screw the hell off." Look, if she does that calmly, help her see that, that is part of what you were talking about. You know, you can say, "Listen, I can see this as really hard to hear. I totally understand that it would be hard for me too, but as your friend, I have to point out that the way you are reacting right now is exactly what I am talking about." Keep supporting her, keep helping her get out of her own way. If you do that enough times, she'll run out of defenses and be forced to confront what you're saying. Or, you know, she won't, that's also possible. She might be so defended that nothing gets through. You've just got to decide at that point whether to keep her as a friend or move on. You don't have to cut her out of your life forever. Maybe take a bit of a break or something like that. 

[00:51:10] Do you think she should involve the other girls? Is there an intervention? Is it one-on-one? Does she say, "Hey, other people agree with me, or is it just, this is my experience"? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:17] I think that could actually work really nicely, as long as they don't create the feeling that they're ganging up on her. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:22] That's what I was worried about, "Yeah, like everyone hates you now, you know? Okay."

[00:51:26] That 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:27] could cut both ways. She might feel ganged upon, but if it goes well, she could also feel like, "Oh, I really have to pay attention if all of them are saying this at the same time. Right? So I think it kind of comes down to the group dynamic and how they can make that work. I got the sense from this letter that she had a little bit of a special relationship with this person. So like they too were closer maybe than the rest of them were with her. So that made me think that maybe it should be a one-on-one conversation, but if the group is super tight and you guys are all part of this, then yeah, maybe consider doing it as a group. That's a really good idea. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:55] And if you do decide to part ways with her, I think that's completely fair. You've done your part to help her. If she absolutely refuses to engage, she just refuses to consider her behavior in a new way, she's made her decision. It's extremely hard to be close with somebody like that even if you do have a deep history. Maybe she'll come around later. Maybe she never will. Maybe it's Maybelline. I don't know. Who knows? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:52:18] That's a good point. It could be Maybelline. That's really good. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:22] It could be, you know, in fact, it usually is —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:52:24] It usually is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:24] — from my experience, yes. Honestly, this situation is kind of sad. Here's a woman who's dealing with anxiety and depression who's clinging to our friend groups since kindergarten, because — I can't believe that just came out of the '90s into my brain. Is that a TV ad, Gabe? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:52:39] Ah, yeah, I think, I think that was it. Yeah. Isn't it a makeup?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:42] Yeah or hair stuff? Maybe. I'm not sure now. Is it maybe she's born with it, maybe it's Maybelline? That was something that was on, like during TGIF. I was probably watching Steve Urkel in Full House. And then those would pop out. 

] Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:52:52] I wonder why they would be advertising that against Steve Urkel's, a bit of a mystery. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:55] Yeah, well —

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:52:56] It's makeup. It's makeup. Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:58] Yeah, okay, good. I can go on with my life now. 

[00:53:00] So look, this is a little bit sad, right? Here's a woman who's dealing with anxiety, depression. She's clinging to her friend group since kindergarten, because she probably struggles to build relationships with new people, candidly. And she seems like she's on the verge of a little bit of a mini-breakdown at any given moment by your letter here. That's a lot to deal with. She definitely needs some help. And from you as her friend, for sure, but also from a professional. Maybe that's something you could recommend to her too. And that's a great reason to go into therapy, right? "My friends can't deal with me and now they're leaving me behind. Why? What am I doing?" Nip this in the bud. She can be salvaged, right? If she wants to be, if she admits that this is a problem, she doesn't know what to do. She's going to see a professional. Then, yeah, don't cut her out. She's trying. That would be the beginning of a really important conversation for her if you have this. 

[00:53:42] And she is lucky to have you as a friend. I wish you the best. I hope you help her get better so that she can keep you in her life. 

[00:53:49] Hope you all enjoy that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Stay tuned after the show. If you want to hear a bit more about the course, I just released on how to conduct interviews for podcasts. Go back and check out the guests from this week, Billy McFarland of Fyre Fest, infamous Fyre Fest, and Celeste Headlee of NPR if you haven't yet. 

[00:54:06] If you want to know how I managed to book all of these great people and manage my relationships, it's about systems consistency, tiny habits, check out our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Don't kick the can down the road. Don't try and do it later. Dig the well before you get thirsty. I see a lot of people making this mistake and I see a lot in the inbox. "Oh, I didn't dig the well. Now what?" Start over. Start fresh. No shortcuts. The drills take a few minutes a day. Ignore it at your own peril, frankly. It's free. It's over at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:54:38] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of this Feedback Friday episode on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:54:59] And don't forget, you can catch me and Gabriel Mizrahi live inside the Stereo app on Friday, November 6th at 2:00 p.m. Pacific. That's Friday, November 6th 2:00 p.m. Pacific inside the Stereo app. You can go grab the Stereo app in your App Store. Just follow me on there. I'm @JordanHarbinger inside that app. We're going to be doing a handful of live shows, but catch the first one Friday, November 6th at 2:00 p.m. Pacific. Oh, and most importantly, we're bribing you. We're giving away $500 on this live broadcast. So come join us inside the Stereo app for a chance to win 500 bucks as if hearing our lovely voices wasn't enough. 

[00:55:34] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team includes Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabe Mizrahi. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own. And like I said, I'm a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[00:56:14] I wanted to give you a quick bite of the episode I did with Mark Cuban of Shark Tank and Dallas Mavericks' fame. Mark gives advice to entrepreneurs and founders in these uncertain times tells us how he stays on top of trends in technology and how the US can compete with China.

Mark Cuban: [00:56:30] When everybody's afraid, the best way to deal with it is by coming together. It certainly seems a lot bigger than anything we've seen, you know, in my lifetime and the combination of the protest and looting and the pandemic, all of these things combined together to make for really uncertain times. And when people are uncertain about their future, that's why people rebel. Martin Luther King said, "Rioting is the voice of the unheard." The only surprise is that it's taken this long 

[00:56:57] Kaepernick, didn't even bring the focus to himself. You know, he just happened to be taking a knee and somebody caught him with a phone camera. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:04] What would you have done in that moment at that time? If he were your player, would you, how would you have handled that?

Mark Cuban: [00:57:09] I'd hug him.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:09] Yeah. 

Mark Cuban: [00:57:10] Yeah, absolutely. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:11] If you were president, how would you improve race relations? 

Mark Cuban: [00:57:15] I mean, I'd hug a few people. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:16] Yeah. 

Mark Cuban: [00:57:17] You know, I'd walk out there and listen, you know, I'd take advice. I wouldn't think I had all the answers.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:22] This piece you wrote, "Dear White People, we're the ones that need to change." This is probably controversial. I would imagine he gets some blowback from something like that. 

Mark Cuban: [00:57:29] A lot of people fell out with calling them out as racist, which I wasn't doing. In order for things to change, then people need to take measures and understand, be very self-aware about what's going on with them, and how people are living their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:44] A lot of people don't seem to have much to look forward to right now. What do you think we should be looking forward to as a nation? 

Mark Cuban: [00:57:49] I mean, look, there's no better time ever to start a business than right now because all businesses are effectively going through a reset. And so there's a lot of advantages and with the protests and the riots that give us just one inkling of hope that maybe we'll make progress. Maybe this time we'll listen. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:07] For more with Mark Cuban, including the future of the technology economy, check out episode 362 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:58:16] Have you ever been in an amazing conversation that just really made you think in a different way? We remember these exchanges years later and find ourselves going back to some because they offered us insights, made us feel better, and connected us to one another through shared interests and a thirst for new understanding and meaning.

[00:58:35] My name is Jordan Harbinger. I'm the creator and host of The Jordan Harbinger Show podcast. I've spent about 15 years working as a podcaster and broadcaster interviewing a variety of individuals from entrepreneurs, artists, and some of the world's most interesting people. In this audio course, I'll share with you my hard-fought strategies, lessons, and actionable advice for having great conversations through the form that I know best long-form interviews and conversations. Whether you're trying to create your own podcast or bring your best self to everyday interactions, this course was created for you. 

[00:59:09] How to Host a Podcast is available exclusively on Himalaya learning. Himalayan learning is an audio learning platform that provides bite-sized courses from world-class thinkers and industry experts to fuel your personal and professional growth. To access exclusive content from the course and others like it, go to himalaya.com/jordan and enter promo code JORDAN to get your first 14 days free. We hope you enjoy it.