358: Is My Friend Blowing Her IVF Money on Gifts? | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Is My Friend Blowing Her IVF Money on Gifts? | Feedback Friday (358)

Jordan Harbinger : [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger, and I'm here with Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:00:08] Hey, Jordan. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:00:09] So we have a little bit of an announcement here today. I know we mentioned last time that this was JPD's last Feedback Friday and that he was going to be going on and doing a bunch of other stuff with podcasts and podcast land and sort of separating from The Jordan Harbinger Show team. He's still part of the family.

[00:00:26] Of course, today we have a new co-host here on Feedback Friday. He's the head of the editorial for The Jordan Harbinger Show and has been for years. He's one of my best friends. Gabriel Mizrahi is going to be joining us here. He's going to be providing advice. He's going to be reading the questions. He's going to be doing weird yoga poses and stuff and stretches during the show. You don't see the video of us doing this and just be thankful. You don't need to see all the weird stuff going on behind the scenes. Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made. But Gabriel Mizrahi here, and I'm thankful for that, and I think we're going to have a totally different and very fun, unique vibe and probably a little bit of a different take on advice because Gabriel is a more sensible person than me, flatly said. So I'm really excited to have him on board here today. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:01:11] Thank you for inviting me. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:01:12] Yeah, of course. As you all know on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And if you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes to authors, to thinkers, and performers. 

[00:01:39] And this week, we had a Deep Dive, also with you, Gabriel Mizrahi, making the most of quarantine. How to stay productive, learn some new skills. A lot of people are talking about how cooped up and bored they are and how there's no end in sight for a lot of folks, and I think that's always troublesome for those of us that are overachievers or just want to get something done. We also had Robin Dreeke, a retired FBI agent, talking about how to read other people. This is stuff he used as one of our nation's top spy recruiters inside the United States. Robin Dreeke is a friend. We go way back. So this was an interesting episode as well. 

[00:02:12] I also write every so often on the blog. The latest post is also how to stay productive under quarantine. So we're quarantining it up this week here on the show. I think, you know, normally we don't talk a lot about COVID-19 but really there's a lot of people that just feel like they're not moving forward, and that's a deeper problem that people need to address. So make sure you've had a look and a listen to all of that, the episodes and the feed and everything at jordanharbinger.com/articles.

[00:02:38] Of course, our primary mission here on The Jordan Harbinger Show is to pass along our guests and our own insights and experience to you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you. That's what we're going to do today and every Friday here on Feedback Friday. I just want to place one brick in the structure that makes up your life. That's what this podcast is about. And you can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. That's friday@jordanharbinger.com. 

[00:03:04] Gabriel, you want to introduce yourself at all? I mean, you're new to the show, but you're not new to the show. You're not new to the company, that's for sure. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:10] Yeah. We've been working together for God years now, right? Writing and chatting on the podcast, so if you've heard of past episodes, then you probably know what we talk about and we're going to get more into Feedback Friday. I'm excited to be here with you guys. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:03:23] Yeah, you sound really excited. You definitely don't sound like a guy who just took a yoga class and is now jonesing for a nap. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:29] This is my default voice, man. I don't know what to do about it. It's just right here. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:03:33] That's all right. There's room for everybody in radio, you know. As always, we've got fun questions. We've got doozies. You know you picked the questions this week. I feel like you're a doozy magnet. We've got some seriously heavy duty. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:45] Am I?

Jordan Harbinger : [00:03:45] Yeah. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:46] We got some good ones. There are some really good ones this week. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:03:48] We do. Yeah. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:51] Hey, Jordan. I have a friend who is the most thoughtful, generous person you've ever met. She often buys gifts for her friends and family just because, and always gets extravagant gifts for special occasions. For example, she will randomly by our group of friends small gifts for no reason at all. She always makes sure to get our kids nice gifts for their birthdays and Christmas, and she even bought her nephew a tablet for his fifth birthday. She also just told me she's sending a super nice gift to an old friend who's graduating from college who she doesn't even talk to anymore. I know she takes a lot of pride in her gifts. Here's the thing, though, she and her husband have been struggling with infertility for years. It's been very hard on her, and I know being a parent is what she wants more than anything. She disclosed to me that IVF was not an option because they could not afford it. Knowing how much he wants to be a parent, part of me wants to take her aside and tell her to stop buying all of these appreciated but unnecessary gifts and put that money into a savings account for IVF in the future if they want to go that route. Do you think it's overstepping a boundary to give this unsolicited advice? I don't want to make her feel bad or stop being the thoughtful, loving person she is, but I think she could find ways to do it in less expensive ways and save that money for her and her family's future. Is there a good way to approach this topic with her? Signed, Unsolicited Advisor.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:05:11] First of all, for people who don't really know what IVF is -- so in vitro fertilization -- this is when they, what do you say? Do you say artificially inseminate? I'm trying not to be crude, but that's really what it is. And it's a surgery and it costs -- if you have insurance and you get subsidies -- anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, and you've got the medications. That's thousands of dollars. I've got friends who've done this. They went to Taiwan to do it and they spent around $5,000 so it is cheaper overseas. But barring medical tourism and taking multi-thousand dollars flights to Taiwan and getting hotels and then trying to fly back and recover, I mean, that could be just as expensive and then you're in a foreign country. So I just wanted to throw that out there in case people aren't familiar on what IVF is. I will come back to this.

[00:05:42] But for anybody who's read The Five Love Languages, this is not a book on science. I think there's a useful paradigm here for looking at relationships, and one of the love languages in that book is gift giving or gifts. And if you're saying your friend takes pride in her gifts, that's great. That means she gets value from giving the gift. So you might say something to her like, "Hey, you know, you got to be careful. You should make sure that you're saving money for IVF," but you have to be careful telling her that so that she doesn't feel judged or unappreciated. You know, IVF is expensive. If you know lots of her friends and many of them are well to do, you could get together and maybe crowdfund the money for them to do IVF if you're sure they want it. That might be overly ambitious, but it is a thought. I hesitate to tell people who enjoy gift giving to stop giving gifts simply because we think they need something else more. It's not necessarily going to change their behavior and it might push them away from you when what they need most potentially need most is emotional support and friendship. I think if I gave great gifts and somebody said, "Hey, you know, Jordan. You should keep these nice gifts. I appreciate them, but you should keep them because I noticed that really you should replace your car." I'd feel embarrassed about that. And then I'd also feel really bad and probably a little stupid about that, and I feel like it might rob them of the joy they get from being kind to their friends. What do you think, Gabe? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:14] I think you're right. I mean, it is up to her friend to decide how to express that love that you're talking about and to accept the costs of that expression, whatever they might be. But you know, the person writing in is asking a really, really good and kind of complicated question, which is -- is it overstepping a boundary in our friendship to give this unsolicited advice that I think is really important and I feel like, and I think the answer really depends on two things. The first is the nature of their friendship, like how close they are and how much you know the person writing and cares about this person, which it sounds like he or she does a lot. and second, their friends' willingness to talk honestly about this subject and get a new perspective.

[00:07:50] If you guys are not very close or you don't have the kind of friendship where you can discuss intimate topics and give each other advice freely, then telling your friend, "Hey, maybe you should stop buying us all 4K UHD TVs for Christmas and start saving for that baby you really want." That’s probably crossing a line a little bit. If you guys are close and it's the type of friendship where offering unsolicited advice is totally within the bounds of your friendship, then you can probably bring this up without. Violating any boundaries. That doesn't mean she'll take it well necessarily just means that you probably could broach the subject.

[00:08:20] But based on the email, I get the sense that maybe the person writing in is somewhere in between these two places. Tell me if you agree, Jordan. Maybe close enough to care about her friend's ability to have children, but maybe not so close that bringing up the money stuff is no big deal. And I feel like that's what makes it so hard. So my advice is this -- if your friend brings up the financial challenges of having a child or doing IVF a lot, like if she talks about how badly she wants kids and how it's not possible on multiple occasions, then I think you have a license to say something. I mean, you should still be gentle about it because it's a sensitive topic for most people. You're talking about money and fertility and the nature of your friendship, which is just like a turducken of tension potentially. So a good approach would be something like, "So look, I know you brought up IVF a bunch and how it's hard to afford, and I know that having a family is really important to you. Like I hear you say that, and I also notice how insanely generous you are with your friends, including me. And I have to imagine that that really adds up. You say you don't have the money for IVF, but here you are spending this money and gifts, which is really sweet, but, have you ever considered saving some of that money for a little while so you can have a family." And if you can make that a conversation with the other person as much as possible and try to help your friend see the truth for herself, rather than telling her what you think is right, then I think that conversation will go a lot better.

[00:09:38] But if your friend does not bring this topic up a lot, if she only said it once in passing when she had a few glasses of wine or something and never brought it up again. Then I think you have a smaller window into that conversation, and you might still bring it up, but you'd be doing it with less of an indication that your friend actually wants to have that conversation. So what I do is balance the nature of your friendship and your friend’s state of mind, against your desire to see her make the right decisions. And ultimately, you know, her life is up to her. You can help her see the truth as you see it, but at the end of the day, it's her life. And I think that's the real line that you have to honor.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:10:11] That makes a whole lot of sense. There is sort of the consideration where if this were me, am I close enough to this person to say, "Hey, I know you really want to have kids, and you said that IVF is really expensive. Have you thought about making a plan to save for that?" And if they go, "Well, it just seems impossible to get $10,000 together." You go, "Well, we could game this out right now. Do you want to do some back of the napkin stuff." And then they can be like, "Cool." "Do you mind if we look at what you've spent money on in the last few weeks? Like I know you buy gifts. Like we could start with those." And then if she's like, "Nah, I really don't want to talk about this. It's a sensitive subject, or I don't really know. I don't really want to go there." Then you kind of have your answer. But if she's like, "Well, okay, I mean, yeah, you know, our rent is this, our mortgage is this, and yeah, I bought these two gifts." And you're like, "So if you didn't do this, but you still paid your rent, your mortgage, or your grocery bills, but you didn't buy gifts for a while, which everyone would understand. It looks like you'd have $10,000 in one year." And then she's like, "Yeah. But I love giving gifts." "Yeah. And everyone loves getting gifts from you, of course. But I think you should give a gift to yourself. You know, what about having a kid? You could give it a shot for a couple of rounds." Then it's like, "Anyway, do you want more wine?" You know, you just kind of let that seed germinate for a little while, and it might be like, "Oh yeah, this is within reach." Because there's a chance that she wants to have kids and wants to do IVF really bad, and then just goes. "It's impossible for me to save $10,000 and then doesn't realize that spending $400 on a tablet adds up to over two years to IVF money or quicker to IVF money."

[00:11:38] I still like my crowdfund idea, but it might be a little bit embarrassing. "Hey, here's my GoFundMe for Get Karen a Kid. Share it widely. Here's a picture of her and her husband. They're infertile." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:49] I don't know if that's going to go down so well.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:51] I don't think so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:52] Especially after giving all those gifts, it's going to feel like a quid pro quo or just. Totally reckless or something, but it is kind of funny. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:11:59] Yeah, good point. Like, "Hey, remember that woman who gave you a tablet?" 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:02] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:03] Pony up, man, she's trying to reproduce. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:04] And if you don't, we're all going to know it was you. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:12:06] Yeah, we'll know. We'll know. "Put your name right next to the donation, Tom. You cheap bastard."

[00:12:12] Alright, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:13] Hey, Triple J. I can't help but feel stuck right now. I've been unemployed since March, after leaving a commission-only-life-insurance job after working there for six months. I've been sending out resumes non-stop, but none of the interviews I've done are sticking. At the beginning of the year, I took a certificate course in technology sales from a local university. Part of the class was the idea that we would be able to find jobs at the end of the course. I actually only pay for the course if I get a job that pays $50,000 or more. Even though the course gave me exposure and interviews with great companies, I'm still unemployed. I know part of the problem is my resume. It's not all geared towards sales in the way that the companies want. I come from a PR and communications background and not a business background. Also, I have mostly restaurant experience for now. Additionally, there is a gap on my resume where I took a year off of college to go to drug and alcohol rehab. That rarely comes up in interviews, but I was wondering how I can spin that positively. Should I go back to the restaurant industry so I have an income? Should I check out a trade? Should I go ahead and start working towards that master's in public health? I've always wanted, I'm 27 and listening to your show has given me hope that I'm not doomed. However, driving for DoorDash and being unemployed in quarantine was only cool for about a week. And your thoughts? Signed, Dazed and Quaran-fused. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:13:30] Did you make that one up?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:32] I did. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:32] That's awesome. Dazed and Quaran-fused. Oh man, that's good. One of the main things I was worried about with the producer, Jason, JPD leaving was all of these awesome nicknames because I'm hopeless with it. I mean, look, you're talking to a guy who named his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show, literally because I didn't know what else to call it. So, the fact that you're able to come up with stuff like this is a huge relief, that, and you know, doing the show with me and everything. 

[00:13:56] So definitely work, Dazed and Quaran-fused if you can, so that you have income. I know right now things are crazy, but any income is better than nothing. And restaurants usually have flexible schedules, so you can go do interviews and that's if your restaurant is even open right now. If you do have money to continue job searching, I recommend giving yourself budgeted financially responsible deadlines. So if I don't have a job on June 1st then go, I'll go back to the restaurant industry. Or if I don't have a job in three weeks from this date, I will go back to the restaurant industry. Base that on how much runway you have financially. 

[00:14:31] As a side note, staffing agencies always seem to be hiring, so that might be a good route to go if you want a sales like environment and you need a job right now. A friend of mine and friend of the show who helped us with this question, she got hired in recruiting with literally zero experience and now she does recruit for Amazon and helps us with Feedback Friday questions like this one. So clearly she is a smashing success. Trades are always a great option if you're interested in them. If not, they're going to be a nightmare. There's always work, so it's stable. They have unions. There's good pay. You can eventually start your own shop, be your own boss. A lot of people like to work outside depending on where you are, you can hire others, be a job creator. There's a whole lot of benefits working in a trade if you are interested in that trade.

[00:15:15] I would first though, explore shadowing other people in those trades for a couple of days to see if there's something you'd like to work on. You don't want to go and be like, "Oh, I guess I'll do HVAC. My uncle does it. He says it's good money." And then you, the first day on the job, you're like, “This is a nightmare and I'm taking an apprenticeship with somebody or an internship or a job." You know, shadow a buddy or two and say, "Wow, you are in small spaces all day, and I would have a panic attack doing that. I don't think that I can do this." You know you want to do this sort of take-your-daughter-to-work day type situation at first. And when I say trade, I don't mean law or medicine, I mean HVAC, roofing, drywall, plumbing. The guy who installs reverse osmosis water filters in our neighborhood is busy seven days a week. He makes multiple six figures, and the only reason he doesn't earn more and work less is because he's the most disorganized human being that I've ever met in my life. He hasn't hired anyone because he doesn't have time, and he gives a lot of stuff out for free because he actually forgets to collect payments. So talk about a high-quality problem. If you prefer education and more education, bear in mind that you should be doing what you want, not just doing a trade you hate because you need cash. Persistence, especially in this economy actually does matter, and getting into a field you want, like public health, matters a lot for long-term happiness. You know you're going to feel better doing something you enjoy. So don't just take a job that pays the bills except for a short term place. 

[00:16:41] This part is really a lot more difficult to advise without knowing more information. So some questions that might help would be asking yourself: Are you able to afford going into a master's program? Are you open to taking on significant debt? If you do, I usually advise against debt, but you know, education is education. If you really need it, you really need it. And what job would you look for after the master's program? Is the master's degree actually required or is there another way into that field? I think a lot of people go, "Oh, I really need this degree because I want to do this." And then it turns out that you are working next to people who have a high school diploma and it's like, yeah, you're the manager, but you're making three dollars an hour more than everybody else that you're with, but you have a hundred thousand dollars in debt because of that you started three years late. 

[00:17:24] As to your hiring concerns. I did again, ask friends of the show, Kyle and Jordan, both recruiters, what they thought of your situation. They had mentioned that interviewers and recruiters will probably wonder why you left after six months if you only had your first job for six months. So try to positively state the reasons for leaving. It was a layoff. I don't know how positive that is, but in the time of corona, it's probably fine. Hiring managers may assume you were fired since six months is usually around when performance is reviewed after training. If you're still looking for another Sales Bootcamp, a friend of Jordan, the other Jordan went through the alwayshired.com Sales Bootcamp. We'll link to that in the show notes. She said he was able to get an SDR tech job, so sales development rep tech job within two weeks, so you can check that out. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes. You can also try applying to sales coordinator positions. Your communications degree seems applicable and it could set you up to future sales roles, or you can try and get a retail sales associate position, which could also lead to future sales positions. And that's anything where you're selling something in a store. 

[00:18:29] If you're not doing so already, I recommend tailoring your resume to each specific job that you apply to. This means including keywords that are in the job description in your resume, and including the job req ID that you find on the application if they have one. Our recruiter friends here said, one of the first things they do is do a control F whatever to find keywords, and they're always impressed by the amount of customization that candidates put the effort into doing. 

[00:18:56] As for your gap year "for rehab," I would put it on the resume, so there's not a gap year with zero explanation. I recommend not going into specifics. Interviewers usually do not care about gaps in college as long as you graduated. They generally do care about gaps in employment post-graduation. If it does come up in an interview, give a very general answer about how you had health-related issues where you needed to take time off. That should be fine, especially with everything else going on. Although interviewers aren't legally allowed to deny you the job because of drug and alcohol rehab, they might just come up with another reason why you're not qualified, because they don't want to take the risk. The more confident and concise you make this point, that assures the interview that the gap is not a big deal, and they will continue the interview process normally. The point here is to address any red flags the interviewer might think of and assure them that you're not going to suddenly leave the job if they hire you. I do advise against spinning it more positively after that, but if you really need to make it a quick part of your story about how the break helped you find a passion for the relevant job or industry or made you more qualified in some way. Again, I wouldn't advise spending too much time on the specifics of this topic since it doesn't seem like it helps unless you're applying to a position that is related to rehab or therapy. Gabriel, anything to add. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:17] No, I think you covered it all. That's super sound advice. The one thing that stood out to me in this email is that the one thing you really seem to want to do is to pursue a master's in public health, and if you can do that for good reasons and do it responsibly, then why not just go do that? You're still young. You're still building. Go do it. Sometimes life is harder when we're not pursuing what we're meant to. That could be the case with these sales jobs. It's possible that sales just isn't working out because you're not that person. So why not put yourself on a path to being the person you actually want to be if you do have a passion for public health, rather than trying to scramble for jobs that don't quite fit who you are.

[00:20:50] I'm not saying you couldn't be great at a number of things or that you could do some of these things on the way to your master's in public health, but if that's really the one thing that in your heart, you know you care about, I don't see why you should spend more time trying to make something else work when you could be going after that.

Peter Oldring: [00:21:06] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show and it's Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:21:10] This episode is sponsored in part by ExpressVPN. You've heard me talk about how important it is to have internet privacy, a VPN or virtual private network. Now that we're all working from home, it's even more important to choose a VPN that you trust, and I like to do research on my sponsors. I only recommend brands to my listeners that I believe, and I've been using ExpressVPN for years. What this does, it essentially encrypts your traffic. It doesn't log your data to a lot of cheap or free VPNs. They make money selling your data to ad companies. ExpressVPN doesn't do that. None of these other servers can log your info. Also, it's fast. Free VPNs are going to be slow AF. ExpressVPN, I've been using again for years. The speeds are blazing fast. It's the reason I can pretend to be in random countries when I answer email. That's always fun. My lawyer uses this actually. He always tries to trip up opposing counsel by answering emails from like Africa and he'll be like, "Sorry for the delay. I’m on the road."

Peter Oldring: [00:22:05] I'm very busy. I'm watching a tiger cub be born. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:22:08] Yes, yes. "In the fields of Sierra Leone right now, mining coltan. Sorry for the delay." But what I also love about ExpressVPN is it's just an app. You don't have to, freaking, code something in. Your grandparents can use it. My Chinese teachers use this because they can't use Skype. If you do business with China or in China, you really do need something like this or you won't even be able to access things like Google and email. So tell them where they can get a deal on express VPN. 

Peter Oldring: [00:22:36] Oh my goodness. My pleasure, dear sir. So to protect yourself with the VPN that we use here on the show, and that we trust, use this link, expressvpn.com/harbinger today and get an extra three months free on a one-year package. That's expressvpn.com/harbinger. Visit expressvpn.com/harbinger to learn more.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:23:00] This episode is also sponsored by Vuori clothing. I love this stuff. I'm wearing it literally right now. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't look or feel like workout clothing. They even have button-down short sleeve shirts and you can work out and then they're super comfortable. 

Peter Oldring: [00:23:15] I could wear this and just never have to work out at all.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:23:18] Correct. 

Peter Oldring: [00:23:19] And still enjoy wearing them. I love it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:22] That's right. You can look like the kind of guy who should be working out without any of the workouts or benefits there. And the product is incredibly versatile. You can use it for running, training, yoga. You can lounge around weekend errands or you know, today working from home -- what's the difference between running training, yoga, and lounging, or weekend errands, weekday errands, weekend errands, working for everything, but it doesn't look like dad mode gear, you know? That's, that's what I've -- I've gotten to be a little more conscious of this. 

Peter Oldring: [00:23:48] That's what I have been working out in the past is dad mode things, or it's basically just really sort of bad, well, white V-neck t-shirt that's kind of ratty, and you throw that on your workout in. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:23:59] Yeah, 

Peter Oldring: [00:23:59] No more. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:24:00] No, no more. This is incredibly soft and comfortable. Looks great in everyday life. Inside and outside the gym. You can't go inside the gym anymore anyway, so let's just stick with outside the gym.

Peter Oldring: [00:24:08] Right.

Jordan Harbinger : [00:24:09] Perfect for travel. Again, you're not doing that, but if you are at home a lot, this is where this stuff really shines. Again, I love everything I've gotten from Vuori. And we're going to give you a little deets on that. Peter. 

Peter Oldring: [00:24:19] Consider Vuori an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, Vuori is offering 20 percent off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and most versatile clothing on the planet at vuoriclothing.com/jordan. That is V-U-O-R-I-clothing.com/jordan. Not only will you receive 20 percent off your first purchase. But enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. So go to vuoriclothing.com/jordan and discover the versatility of Vuori clothing.

[00:24:54] Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. So to learn more and get links to all those great discounts you just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast and now for the conclusion of our episode, it's Feedback Friday. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:25:23] All right. Gabe, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:25:24] Hey, guys. I'm a huge fan of the show. My brother-in-law introduced me to it several months ago and I've been obsessed. I'm almost done listening to all the Feedback Fridays and I love the insights and commentary that you guys provide. I'm writing about a problem that relates to my sister. She and I are very close and both suffered from physical abuse from our biological father when we were around five to seven years old. She was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder last year and has been participating in non-stop treatments, medications, and therapy sessions to help. Sadly, she doesn't seem to be progressing very much. She's always been a little crazy, but it got much worse last year when events triggered flashbacks to our troubled childhood of physical abuse. I managed to seek counseling about a decade ago, which helped mitigate the effects of my trauma, but sadly, she didn't have the same opportunity and it looks as if she's paying the price now. Since then, she's alienated many friends, seems to suffer from the lowest of lows through self-harm. Like saying she'll cut herself, which can suddenly shift into delusions of grandeur and superiority. For example, acting racist, saying certain people don't deserve to live or live in America. Everyone around her is constantly walking on eggshells. She has threatened suicide several times, and each time we'll find someone to blame. She gets derailed by every day and conveniences and says things trigger her PTSD. The biggest problem is when we walk on eggshells and apologize for things that are not our fault I feel as if we're enabling this behavior, agree with me, apologize to me, et cetera, or I will kill myself. Of course, more counseling should be a primary focus, but I think doing more at a familial level is called for since individual counseling hasn't made any significant impact over the last year. I love my sister, even though she has always been a little crazy. She's one of the most generous and intelligent people in my life, and I want to see her succeed. What do you suggest? Sincerely, Living on the Borderline. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:27:16] Oh, I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. I'm sorry for your sister too. This can't be easy because there's a part of me, I've never gone through this, but I would imagine that when you're slowly losing yourself like that, there's a part of you that knows it. Right? You have to know, and it's just overwhelming, so that must feel tremendously difficult. Whatever happened to her before has really bubbled up to the point where she can't even work, which I think is not helping. Because I think for a lot of us work, it gives us a sense of purpose, it gets us out of the house. It stops us from ruminating about our own lives because we're thinking about what we're working on. 

[00:27:50] I'm not a licensed psychologist or therapist, so I'm not saying this with any clinical authority. I can't give specific treatment recommendations, but based on the literature and what we've learned about BPD, so borderline personality disorder, here's what I think. If she's been in therapy and it's not helping, I have to wonder what the therapist says. Perhaps you can go with her to a session or two and ask for yourself. I asked a psychologist friend of mine, and he said, "In my opinion, the whole family should be attempting therapy together and probably worth switching therapists if they're not seeing improvement in communications outside the sessions in one to three months. You'll want to look for a family systems therapist who utilizes attachment theory. That would be a good place to start." But again, not a medical recommendation. You just might want to look at some other therapists and things like that while continuing to get treated here because this sounds like something that she is just not improving with the current therapist, and you have to be really careful about that. Nobody wants to go to therapy and see no results. That's got to be the most frustrating thing, especially when you're dealing with something like this as an individual or as a family. Gabriel, what do you think? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:28:56] I just want to reiterate, I am so sorry that you're going through this. This sounds really, really hard. I mean, you guys, the two of you have been through something really traumatic and extraordinary in your childhood, and it wasn't your fault. And I can feel in this letter that beneath all the frustration and the anger and the confusion, there's like a ton of love there and a desire to see your sister succeed and I feel that I have a sibling. I care about her more than anything in the world. Like that is tough and sibling relationships are really complex. Like in addition to being complicated relationships in and of themselves, they also carry all the residue of childhood and how you deal with that in adulthood. 

[00:29:33] I want to just echo, I'm not a licensed psychologist or therapist. I'm just an amateur -- you know, I read up on this stuff and I happened to find it very interesting, so I can just share what I've learned. I'm not an expert. So look, a borderline personality disorder is a response to trauma, which you guys experienced when you were younger. And being around someone with BPD is incredibly draining and incredibly exhausting. Just based on what you've shared, it sounds like your sister might be dealing with some bipolar disorder on top of it. I don't want to analyze her. I'm not trying to put her in a chair. I'm just based on your description of her grandiosity in certain moments. It sounds like there are a couple of things potentially going on, and that creates a very difficult combination. Basically, it sounds to me like your sister is in dire need of good intensive therapy with someone who is really good. I'm hoping she's getting that now. It sounds like she's already in therapy, but that it might not be helping, which is tough, but ultimately not something you can really do anything about because that's her process and that's her life.

[00:30:30] My main recommendation is this, and it's going to be a little bit hard to hear and it might be a little hard to put into practice, but here it goes -- you're going to have to set and maintain pretty firm boundaries with your sister. I'm not saying you need to cut her off. I'm not saying you have to reject her in any way. I'm just saying that you have to set and maintain boundaries with the person in your life who's dealing with borderline personality disorder because it sounds like those boundaries with your sister are very weak. And by boundary, I just mean the line between your life and her life, your identity and her identity, your sense of self, her sense of self, basically where your world ends and her world begins. That's where the boundary has to be drawn. So when she threatened suicide or hurts herself or blames you, or expects you to deal with the chaos of what she creates, you are taking on her emotional experience. And that is a classic borderline personality disorder dynamic. You know, I don't blame you for doing that. It's totally natural. It's an expression of how much you care about her and that you guys were super close and it's probably, if I had to guess, something you learned to do way back in childhood, but that has to change. Starting now for your sake, and also for hers. So just in practice, to be very specific for a moment, drawing a boundary with your sister will mean -- depending on how you choose to do it -- it could mean limiting the time you spend with her, limiting contact for a period of time, limiting in conversation potentially so that she doesn't suck your energy, which is something that happens in this type of disorder. And making a conscious commitment to not jump to her rescue or put up with irrational or unfair behavior or apologize when something isn't your fault or agree with her to keep things on an even keel, which it sounds like you're doing or stop her from making bad decisions. Basically, you need to say, "This is where my experience ends and yours begins." This will be really tough and scary. It might even be quite painful for both of you, but from what I understand and from my own experience, it's the only option. 

[00:32:20] You know, one of the things about changing those codependent or enabling relationships and you do describe feeling like you're enabling your sister is that you have to -- in the words of some really great psychologists -- you have to step down so that other people can step up. You have to accept that the other person, your sister might hit rock bottom without your help. I think that's the moment that you've been avoiding by trying to do all of this for her. And you have to tolerate your own anxiety about what happens when you do that. Your sister will react to this. Anytime anyone sets boundaries with anybody, the other person always reacts, especially someone with borderline personality disorder. So she will probably find it very scary. She will probably find it quite rejecting. In the short term, you'll probably want to swoop in and rescue her, but in the long term, you're really not doing her or yourself any favors. And this is really tough because you don't want to be responsible if something bad happens. But if you don't draw that line, then you reinforce the behavior and you're always on the hook and she will never step up in her own life.

[00:33:18] I do recommend you work with your own therapist or psychologist or counselor on setting and maintaining those boundaries. It is hard and it's an ongoing process. It's not a one-and-done type of thing. I do agree with Jordan on this. You know, family therapy could be helpful for the communication aspect, but because your sister seems to pull so much attention when you guys get together, it might be tough for you to really work through some of those issues, especially on your side of the equation. So if you do family therapy, maybe do it in conjunction with your own resources so you can get your own help dealing with this in a room where she's not pulling all of the attention all the time. DBT or dialectical behavior therapy is considered right now the gold standard for BPD treatment. So if your sister can find someone trained in DBT, it would probably help her out a lot. But again, that's not something you can necessarily make happen for her. That is her choice.

[00:34:03] A couple of other resources I'll just throw at you because I think it might help. You might want to consider attending an Al-Anon meeting or a similar meeting for some extra support. Al-Anon was developed as a meeting for family members of addicts. I know that's not exactly what you're dealing with, but a big part of Al-Anon is talking about codependency and enabling behaviors that we get sucked into. And since you mentioned enabling specifically, that type of meeting could be really helpful in dealing with somebody who is chaotic. There are also some really, really good books on coping with borderline personality disorder. One of the best that I've heard mentioned from some experts recently is Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. I think we will link to that in the show notes. 

[00:34:42] Here's the tough news, but also ultimately the good news at the end of the day, you cannot save your sister. Nobody can except her. And you can't help her and you can support her up to a point. That's the boundary, but you can't fix her on your own. You can love her and you can be there for her in a way that you feel is appropriate, but you can't live her life for you and it's not your job. We just can't do that for other people. Only your sister can do that for herself. The best thing you can do is give her the difficult, sometimes painful, but ultimately healthy gift of letting her learn how to live her own life. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:35:14] It's rough to see this because they both grew up in the same way and he's handling it differently than her, and he probably is like, "Why can't you just be more like me where I either went to therapy?" Earlier as he had mentioned or you know, dealing with this in a different way. And I'm sure she feels that too, where she's like, "What the hell? We both dealt with this and my brother is functional and fine. I'm the screw up who can't get it together."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:38] Yeah, I definitely feel that in a letter. I would not be surprised if that were part of what makes the dynamic difficult. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:35:43] Yeah. So it's just got to be so rough. Man, It's amazing to me. I think about this whenever we get letters like this. It's amazing to me how all of your crap as a parent gets transferred to your kid. And if you have a lot of it, you completely overwhelm your kid's ability to develop normally. All my little flaws now. I'm like, "Oh God, I can't have my kids see this. I can't have my kids see you can't have Jayden see me get unreasonably upset about this stupid thing. I can have Jayden Simi do this other dumb thing like, you know, had too many whiskeys and that you can't let him see me do that. Got to cut this stuff out." Like I don't drink very much. Well, that's the problem, right? When I do have two whiskeys and I'm like, "I kind of go to sleep at the dinner table." That's the thing. It's like all of these little things that were just kind of like eye rolls, like rolling your eyes or your wife would roll her eyes. Now, it's like, "What are you doing?" And I'm very much acutely aware of that. So maybe my thing is I derail other people's personal questions and turn them into my own stories about my own life. Huh, something to think about. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:36:43] No, what I'm hearing is that you're a very thoughtful parent who's using the opportunity to be a parent, to look at some of that stuff and magnify it because it matters now. What's really heartbreaking about this letter is that they had a parent who did something really, really bad. You didn't go into detail, but I'm taking you at your word that there was some pretty serious abuse in your childhood and I feel for this person who is writing in, because I think because he has managed to work through some of this stuff on his own and seems to be doing better and is more functional, he probably feels a responsibility to be there for her sister and to pick that up for her. And I get that impulse. I mean, it's natural. You guys are close. You love her. She sounds like a really interesting, smart, caring person. If she weren't, it would be easier. If she weren't special to you, it would be easier to just let her go off the rails. But because you care about her, you want to help. And the hard part is accepting that sometimes you can't help. And sometimes the only way to help is to stop helping in the way you've been doing it this whole time. 

Peter Oldring: [00:37:39] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and yes, indeed it is Feedback Friday. Whew. We'll be right back. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:37:46] This episode is sponsored in part by Giving Masks. An estimated 30 percent of small businesses won't reopen again. We need to get America back to work safely. But here's the deal, without workers, waiters, and cashiers being protected properly, they risk getting sick, and if one of your employees gets sick, you're just down again and back to square one. As an employer, you need to get quality masks for your team. Giving Masks as the answer. Giving Masks offers quality masks at affordable prices. Plus for every box of masks you purchase, they're giving five surgical masks to a working hero in need. When you text, Giving Masks to 77222. So get the masks you need. Feel good about keeping your employees and other people safe. Text Giving Masks to 77222 to purchase your masks and giving masks is going to make a donation in your name. So that's Giving Masks and you text that to 77222.

[00:38:40] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator. Everybody's a brand nowadays, for better or for worse, and on social media, it's getting harder and more expensive to get yourself noticed. Social media sites, they come and go, but you need a stable place on the internet that you can call home. You know, a place you can send people to find you no matter what website is popular this week. Build your own freaking website with HostGator. 

Peter Oldring: [00:39:02] Yeah. Indeed.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:03] That's right. 

Peter Oldring: [00:39:04] That's what I'm doing right now. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:39:05] Over a hundred mobile-friendly templates. Your site is going to look right on a smartphone, a tablet, a desktop. HostGator gives you a ton of add ons. PayPal, people can throw money to you if you're selling your stuff. SEO, so you come up in search results, guaranteed 99.9 percent uptime and great tech support, 24/7, 365 because if stuff goes wrong, it's always super late and in the middle of the weekend when I actually have time to work on this, Peter.

Peter Oldring: [00:39:28] HostGator is giving you guys and gals up to 62 percent off of all of their packages for new users. So go to hostgator.com/jordan right now to sign up. That is hostgator.com/jordan. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:39:41] This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. Let's be real for a sec. Life can be super hard, and sometimes the last thing you want to do when you're feeling down is the chore of finding a therapist. Better Help makes it easy. They have a huge list of online professionals who are trained to help with every type of issue -- depression, stress, anxiety, sleep disorders, relationships, self-esteem, grief, anger -- literally anything a person could ever worry about. You can talk to your professional counselor in a safe, private, online environment. Everything's confidential. You can do it at your own time, your own pace. They've got over 3,000 therapists from every, pretty much every time zone. That's the important part. 

Peter Oldring: [00:40:17] Well, I mean, unless there are more than 3000 times zones. I'd have to think so. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:40:20] Oh, good point. I'm going to have to look that up. Well, either way, within 24 hours you can chat online, text call, or have a private video session with a therapist. And if you're not psyched about the counselor you chose -- see what I did there, you’re not psyched. Yeah, you can swap, you can swap if you want, and there's no additional charge. So with Better Help, find a counselor you love, talk to them from your couch where you're already sitting there watching Friends' reruns, they don't hide from the truth and they will meet you where you are. Better Help is also affordable. They even offer financial aid for those who qualify. Peter.

Peter Oldring: [00:40:51] The Jordan Harbinger Show listeners get 10 percent off their first month with discount code JORDAN. So go to better help.com/jordan fill out a questionnaire and help them find the right counselor for you and get started. That is betterhelp.com/jordan. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:41:08] I also want to encourage you to check out T.I. Tip Harris's podcast. It's called expediTIously and every week expediTIously bridges the gap between music, culture, philanthropy, and more by shedding light on important social topics and an eyebrow-raising dialogue. If you've heard me with T.I., you know, he doesn't censor himself very much, so it's kind of like that. You can find it on Spotify, PodcastOne, Apple Podcasts, and any other podcast listening app. So there'll be a preview at the end of the show for that as well. 

Peter Oldring: [00:41:38] Thank you for listening, you guys, and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And don't forget that worksheet for today's episode. The link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:42:06] Alright, next up. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:07] Greetings, Jordan, Jen, and Team. I hope you're doing okay during these challenging times. I am someone who strives to improve and challenge myself. The problem is I'm also a perfectionist and I have a couple of phobias including public speaking. I'm currently finishing up my first year in beginner German. My dream is to eventually relocate to Germany. The class moves quickly and I've been struggling to keep up and I feel like the worst student in the class. My public speaking phobia is also a constant presence. Since the class is very interactive and we have to present and role play, things like that, I always anticipate making a fool of myself. German is hard. I don't often look forward to going to class, but what makes me so happy is thinking about being in Germany someday and having day-to-day conversations. My big question for you is how do you decide if it's worth pushing through something or quitting because it causes anxiety and isn't too pleasant or fun at the time? Thank you for taking my question. Checking My Dignity at the Virtual German Class Door. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:43:04] Well, I can certainly relate to learning German and other tough languages. German is hard. Chinese is hard. I understand not wanting to make a fool out of yourself and having an increased speaking phobia because you're worried about doing it in a foreign language. I would never quit something just because it's hard or not fun at the time. A lot of things are that way. There's this kind of learning curve where the first year or two of a language really -- especially of languages really sucks because you're going, "Ugh. I'm in Chinese and it's month number six. And all I'm doing right now is learning these dumb sounds, and I don't even know how to say anything other than hello and goodbye and please and thank you. This is terrible." And then like as you kind of rollover to being able to understand what people are saying and say more things, you start to go, "Oh, that's kind of fun." "Oh wow. I can do this." "Oh, I can read now." "Oh, I can write stuff now." That is really rewarding and that's the reason most people quit languages in the first few months or years really seem almost impossible. 

[00:44:02] Our Russian teacher in college. I don't speak Russian anymore, but she got us over this by saying, "Hey, I know you have a different alphabet." And everyone would go, "Yeah, this looks really complicated." And she goes, "I expect you to be done with this, memorize it, and be able to write it in cursive by the end of the month." And we're going, "What are you talking about? Not only do we have to memorize this alphabet, but we have to be able to write it in cursive." And she goes, "Oh, I'm sorry. I meant you're going to know this alphabet by the end of the week. Make some flashcards. Just learn it and drill it. And then you're going to be able to write it in cursive by the end of the month, but you'll also be writing sentences by the end of the month. It's not the only thing we're going to learn." And everyone freaked out. And then after the first three days, it was like, oh, I do know this alphabet. And then after the first week or two, I could write it in cursive and I can still write cursive Cyrillic, which is kind of awesome. She just didn't allow us to drag it out and make it more painful. And we were like, "Wow, this is really hard. Why would you do that?" And she goes, "Yeah, I know this is really hard. I just know that if you do it fast, you get it done. And if you do it slow, it's going to take you a year and you're going to think Russians really hard and it's really not." And I thought that was genius. She was also an old school teacher from the Soviet Union, so she didn't give a crap if we hated it, but we actually liked it. She was kind of brilliant genius, and as far as that was concerned, she taught us like she was teaching little kids, but then she gave us no leeway like you do when you're with adults.

[00:45:21] I just think you should do that to yourself. It doesn't have to not be fun. German is hard. Nobody's judging you in that class. Everyone thinks German is hard. I guarantee you that because it objectively is hard. And if you're thinking about being in Germany someday and having day-to-day conversations, the last thing you should do is to quit German. What I would do. If you're really worried about it and you feel like you're behind the curve, take some German lessons online. Email me at jordan@jordanharbinger.com I'll refer you to my German language teacher. I have a few great German teachers that I take lessons with over Skype and they're interesting and they're fun and they can show you how to get ahead. And so if you feel embarrassed because you feel like you're the last in line in class, that's one thing. But if everyone's having a hard time and you're just self-conscious about it, I would say push through. What do you think, Gabriel? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:46:07] Yeah, I totally agree. I think to answer your main question, you shouldn't quit. I think you need to just make a mental shift and decide what you want to get out of this class. Like in your mind, you're conflating, "Man, this is really hard and embarrassing," with, "This isn't something I should do or something I can do." And I would ask you, what do those two things have to do with each other? Like maybe German is just hard and that's part of it. Maybe it's something you should do because it's hard. I mean, you're freaking learning a new language and moving to another country at some point. What part of that, whatever, be easy. It's really challenging. Now, if you realize at some point that you actually don't want to live in Germany after all, then that changes things, but it sounds to me like your dream of moving there is still very much alive and it excites you to think about speaking German with people, which is so cool. It is so much more meaningful to learn a language knowing that you are going to be using it to experience another country as a local, as best you can. And if that is motivating you, then keep visualizing that and keep focusing on that. I think it'll get you through some tough phases.

[00:47:00] As for your deeper question, I would use this huge goal of learning German as an opportunity to work on your perfectionism and your phobia of public speaking. Both of which, by the way, so many people have and everybody can relate to, everybody listening to this is going, "Oh my God, I totally can relate. I know what that feeling is like." Either way, those are the things that get in the way of a lot of people learning languages. So you are not alone in this. Perfectionism always hides deeper stuff -- usually anxiety about struggling or failing and discovering your weaknesses or being perceived by other people a certain way, even if it's only in your mind and opening yourself up to criticism. And one thing that helps, I think is talking about it. Acknowledging that phobia is a really powerful act and it can be an important first step for you. Could you own it in your class? Could you make fun of yourself or laugh at yourself when you make a mistake? Could you talk to some of the other people in the class or your teacher about it? I mean, I think if you start to open up a little bit about it, it'll take some of the stigmas away from it and also open you up to some new ways of thinking to deal with it. I think if you talk about something out loud, the shame around it always starts to ratchet down.

[00:48:10] Jordan, I want to know if you agree with this. There's one piece of advice that I think my mom and then a few teachers gave me when I was learning languages a decade ago. You have to be willing to sound kind of silly when you're learning a new language. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:48:22] You do and you have to make your mistakes out loud. A lot of people, what they do is -- like for German, there's der, die, and das, right? So masculine, feminine, and neutral nouns, and a lot of times if you don't know what it is, you'll go like, eh, [indiscernible] [00:48:35] and you like sort of mumble the der, die, or das and no one will correct you because -- as they found actually through this kind of fun studies, Germans hear are the correct gender of a noun if you sort of mumble it. Their subconscious will just fill it in with the proper grammar. So you get away with it as a foreigner or they'll be like, "Oh, she doesn't know, so I'm just not going to say anything." If you say just, "Das, dah, dah, dah," and it's der, die, then sometimes people will correct you, but they can't correct you if they're not sure what you said. So you really do have to make your mistakes out loud as much as possible. That's true for any language, but especially for something like German where there are these little tiny mistakes, Chinese, it's harder to get away with because if you screw up the word order, somebody will be like, "Oh, you meant this." Depending on who you're talking to, teachers will do it. But a teacher can correct you with German if they can't even hear what you're labeling the noun. So you do have to make your mistakes as loud as possible. I'm not saying you have to go around yelling, but make your mistakes big, sort of loud and proud. And if they correct you, then good. You'll know. Don't try and hide it and smooth it over because you won't get corrected and you'll keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:49:42] Let me ask you this. Have you ever met someone from another country who speaks broken English and thought, "Geez, what a loser," or like, "What an idiot?"

Jordan Harbinger : [00:49:49] No, of course not. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:49:50] So give yourself the room to improve except that you will not be perfect in the short term. Try to study your phobia a little bit to find out what's underneath them because there's always something underneath them. And most of all try to enjoy it because there's nothing more exciting than learning a new language, well, except getting to use it in the country that you're going to be moving to, which is awesome. I wish you the best. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:50:08] Life Pro Tip of the Week. If a bee colony has set up a hive that you need to remove, so in a wall and a tree near you, don't call the exterminator. They're just going to spray it and kill it, which is a shame. We need bees right now. Beekeepers, local beekeepers, they will often come by in a truck that same day and they will relocate the hive. Often they'll do it for free or they'll do it for a modest fee. Now, the reason they do this as bees are actually valuable. An exterminator doesn't care. They're just going to spray it and kill it like I said. But a beekeeper will try and take it and they're going, "Great! A free bee colony," and that's worth a hundred bucks or more depending on if they're going to keep it or if they're going to sell it. So it's an easy way to be nice to the bees and to your wallet. So you can literally look up beekeepers or honey farms and call them and say, "Hey, do you know anyone who can come and take this beehive? It's in a Bush behind my house. I got kids. I don't want it here." That's for sure true around here. Jen will call her beehive buddies and then these guys will come by. He'll remove a swarm from a car. They're like, "Oh, there are bees in my car." He'll just come by and take it. He'll take the hubcap off, or he'll take the swarm right off in his bee suit and take the beehive. Google or contact local beekeepers associations. They usually have a list of people who will go and retrieve a swarm of bees for you for free.

[00:51:23] Recommendation of the week. Gabriel, you got something for us. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:26] I got a few, but one of the best was a new documentary. It just came out on Hulu called Spaceship Earth. It's a documentary about eight hippy scientists, visionaries who embarked on an experiment for two years to quarantine themselves super timely inside of a thing called a Biosphere 2 which was like a replica of Earth's ecosystem. It's really cool history and super interesting characters and just a really weird time capsule of a certain period of time in the '60s and '70s and I think after that, starting in San Francisco and just following these people on their journey to do this really bizarre experiment. I highly recommend, super interesting doc. 

Jordan Harbinger : [00:52:02] I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Quick shout out to @thatphysio guy who took a major gut punch. Seven weeks after his business became profitable, he got totally screwed over for various reasons and he's been using Six-Minute Networking to get back on course. And his business has been cut by 75 percent, but that's better than most of the clinics in his area which are seeing a 90-plus percent drop in sales. So he's thanking his lucky stars for digging the well before he got thirsty. So if you're not doing Six-Minute Networking, make sure you go and check that out. It's a free course at jordanharbinger.com/course. You have to build your network before you need it. Listen to the experience of @thatphysioguy, and if you don't, you can be in trouble. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at @JordanHarbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. Videos of our interviews are at jordanharbinger.com/youtube.

[00:53:00] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. This episode is produced by Jen Harbinger, edited by Jase Sanderson, show notes for the episode by Robert Fogarty. The ads are fun because of Peter Oldring, music by Evan Viola. Special thanks to my new sidekick on Feedback Friday, Gabriel Mizrahi. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own. I'm not a psychologist or a therapist and I have no clinical authority whatsoever, so I can't give specific treatment recommendations. I can only share what I've learned on my own and with my team. Yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found this episode useful, please share it with someone else who can use the advice we gave here today. Lots more in store for 2020. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:53:58] As promised, here's a clip from expediTIously.

Tip T.I. Harris: [00:54:01] So how can we kind of remove the stigma of mental health within a community?

Male Guest: [00:54:08] Everybody keeps telling me stories. People ask me that all the time. How you eradicate the stigma of mental health? Tell your story. Like, we'd be so afraid to talk about things that we're going through, how we feel or you know, the effects of certain things on us. A lot of shit ain't normal. Ain't normal to be getting guns pulled on you. You know, what I'm saying? It ain't normal to be sitting in a jail cell and then be in fucking solitary confinement for three months at a time. You know what I'm saying? Like think about the minds that we had to be in to even do some of the shit that we used to do back in the day, whether it was there was abuse first and then bring it down -- we just hurt people, hurt people, man.

Tip T.I. Harris: [00:54:44] My mentor, Ambassador Young, he said, man, you know, the condition of the household, at least in the civil rights era or ever since, you know what I'm saying? Even before then, back in Jim Crow day, so he's like it's really a trickle-down effect. The man is the head of the household, but when the man leaves the house, he has to deal with the conditions of the world. He treated like he ain't shit out in the world. So he takes that in that trauma. He came back and he treated the wife like she ain't shit. And then she takes that trauma and she treats the kid like he ain't shit. Then the kid kicked the dog and the dog chased the cat and the cat chased the mouse. So on and so forth. And it really just disturbed the ecosystem.

Male Guest: [00:55:37] And that's the beauty of therapy because I feel like, yeah, we all dealing with so much trauma, we got to get to the root of that trauma. Because if we don't get to the root of that trauma, we're just going to be a bunch of hurt people in pain, redistributing that pain. The motherfuckers that usually look just like us. You know what I'm saying?