269: My Stepdaughter’s Mom Is a Sex Worker | Feedback Friday

Transcript for My Stepdaughter’s Mom Is A Sex Worker | Feedback Friday (Episode 269)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger and I'm here with producer Jason DeFillippo. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

[00:00:19] This week, we had Brian Grazer and his journey to the top of the game in Hollywood driven by his own curiosity. He is the co-founder of Imagine Entertainment. He's been behind just hundreds of Academy Awards and other projects that have just expand his whole career. He’s a really funny, interesting guy. He used to be a courier in Hollywood and he would insist on meeting the people he was delivering the packages to and dot, dot, dot. Now, he's an A-list producer, kind of a crazy situation for him. We had General Robert Spalding. This was a scary one. This is the Chinese Communist Party seeking to hammer the world essentially into its own mold. Again, a pretty scary episode and one that I found especially interesting. This one will keep you up at night for sure.

[00:01:04] I also write every so often on the blog. The latest post is about how to get people to change and do so for the right reasons. For those of us who've ever wanted to maybe take action to change something in their life or make somebody else do that, this article will help you make that happen, or maybe it'll help you make that happen. That's at jordanharbinger.com/articles. So, make sure you've had a look and a listen there to all that stuff we created for you this week.

[00:01:29] Of course, our primary mission is always to pass along experience and insight to you. We want to have conversations directly with you wherever possible that's what we do today and every Friday, here on Feedback Friday. You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. And as many of you know, we are going to prison going to prison on February 26, 2020. It's going to be my 40th birthday and I'm going to spend it behind bars with many of you. I'm inviting you to join us, join me. And I don't know dozens and dozens of your new friends helping inmates re-educate a little bit. It’s an educational program. It's not just the one day we're just going for their graduation and it is always just an extreme blast to do this kind of thing. It's a life-changing experience. You really do get an experience like no other. It's going to be outside Reno, Nevada, on February 26, 2020. You'll come in on the 25th. It'll cost around a grand maybe a little more, maybe a little less, plus travel. Not sure yet but if you're interested in joining me on the 40th birthday party in prison --Maximum Security Prison-- and coming back out and maybe doing dinner if we have time. We'll see. We'll see if they let you back out. You can email me prison@jordanharbinger.com and we'll throw you on the interest list and we'll have some more details for that soon enough. So, I would love to see you there in prison in February 2020 outside Reno, Nevada. It's going to be a blast. It's going to be a life-changing experience that, hopefully, you'll never forget. All right, Jason. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:55] Hi guys. My stepdaughter is 14 and has been living full time with me and my husband for about eight years every other weekend.  She spends with her mom. We've known for a while that her mom is a sex worker. The daughter just says her mom works away but doesn't know what she does. Recently, I was sent a screenshot of a Facebook post from another mom in my stepdaughter’s class asking if it was real. The post had an ad for my stepdaughter’s mom's services. I haven't answered yet because I don't know what to say. Also, since it's out on Facebook, should we give the daughter a heads-up that our mom takes money for sex or do we let her get blindsided by the kids in school? Thanks, Sticky Situation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:33] Well, this is a sticky situation and I feel bad for everyone involved especially the daughter because there's kind of no way that people don't find out about this. And there's almost no way then that kids decide. Well, we should have some measure of decorum because this is a really sensitive situation. This is certain to result in some kind of bullying and certainly gossip around town among other parents. I feel bad about this, you know, I feel bad for everyone involved in this because I would assume that the mom involved here is not somebody who just went, “Screw it! I don't care if my kid has to deal with the consequences.” I mean there are reasons behind what she's doing as well. I don't think it's a matter of demonizing any particular party here. I would make sure that the sex-worker mom is safe. That's the primary concern. Is she a good mom? Otherwise, these are more important than her job title. But I would argue that this is the mother's job to disclose and have that conversation with the daughter. She's got to tell her about it. This can't be something that the stepparents discuss. It shouldn't be something that gets sprung on her in the heat of the moment. It's certainly and better damn well not be something she finds out about from other kids at school.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:04:47] Yeah, it definitely it's not your job to tell her because she's just going to hate you forever. I think it's the mom and the dad’s job.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:54] Yeah, I'm a little bit grossed out that she didn't do it earlier.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:04:58] Yeah. That's the daughter's 14.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:00] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:00] And she's advertising on Facebook to obviously a geotargeted area where her daughter lives and goes to school which could just be bad Facebook ad management. But either way, it's really dumb without having your daughter in the loop in this day and age when her daughter is going to be on Facebook and can possibly see that ad for herself.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:20] Well, Jason can sex workers advertise on Facebook?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:23] You know, it's Facebook ads man, they let everybody advertise on there. You just might not be able to stay up for too long.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:28] I didn't know that that's—

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:30] Personal massage, you know, you can call it whatever you want, but there are ways around that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:36] I'm surprised because I would say I've never seen anything like that, but you'd think Facebook wouldn't approve ads that are kind of obviously like wink wink nudge nudge.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:43] Well, here's the thing you make an account you put the ads up and wait for them to get taken down. But until the point where they've taken down, the ad still shows. I've gotten so many porn ads on Instagram and that's still the same Facebook backend, so—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:54] Oh, yeah good point.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:55] People throw them up there and they just get as many eyeballs as they can until they're taken down and then blocked and then they just repeat and be someone else and do it all over again.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:04] Or maybe instead of an ad, maybe it's one of those like, “Hey don't click here unless you want to see my pics,” like that kind of crap.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:06:11] Yeah, something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:12] You know, there's that too. Yeah, unbelievable. Either way, the parents have to have this conversation and tell her about it. If the sex-worker mom is for some reason not playing ball. It's not your job, but it's her father's job to give her an ultimatum. This is everyone's business now because of the daughter. She's got to be first in line to tackle that one. If she won't do it, you literally have to say look you've got to tell her by Monday, it's Friday. You've got to tell her this weekend. If you don't do it, she's going to find out from friends at school. It's going to be a million times worse. If you don't tell her by Monday, we're going to do it on Monday night at dinner. So, if she still won't have that conversation you have to do it. You still have to do it because you have to let the daughter know that you've got her back. So even if the mom has the conversation you can't just ignore it. You have to have another conversation with the daughter after that. Let her know you've got her back, you know about it, too. It's a family thing. And give the mom a chance to do it on her own first in order to maintain and keep that relationship with her daughter. And then everyone else can then have a separate family conversation together including the mom or not, including the mom, whatever you decide.

[00:07:19] The key here is to make sure that the daughter feels safe, loved, and connected. If she gets surprised by this, expect her not to trust any of you for a long, long time and to act out. You're in trouble here because if the mom says, “Oh, yeah, you know, I don't want to do it. It's none of your business,” and then you don't and then she goes to school and everyone's whispering and then she finds out that you all knew she's going to be super pissed off and she's going to feel like you all set her up for this, which you did actually. If you don't take care of this, this is such a bad situation.

[00:07:55] I didn't think sex workers could advertise on Facebook. So, I'm not sure where that ad came from. I'm still a little confused by that but time is of the essence here. You got to get this handled ASAP like yesterday. This should have been handled as soon as you all found out. In my opinion, this is a same-day conversation kind of thing. I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that my stepdaughter is going to school and some other parent who has no need to be discreet about this and has no need to keep your daughter's best interest at heart is running around spreading around parent groups that her biological mom is a sex worker, like this is code red. Make sure that everybody's on the same page situation in my opinion. I feel bad for this kid. This is a question that I'm almost sad that we got asked this because there's no time to waste here.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:08:44] It's going to get around and it's going to get around fast and they really need to get ahead of this. From my bones, I think that the stepmom should not be involved in the initial conversation with the daughter. If the mother won't do it, the father needs to do it. I don't know what the relationship is between the daughter and the stepmom. They've been living together for eight years. But if there's any kind of hint that the stepdaughter doesn't think that her stepmom is on the up and up, then she might see this as kind of a power play and resent her for it. That's why I think it needs to be the actual parents who do the disclosure here.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:15] Yeah. Good point. It can't look like meddling or anything. It has to be the parents and it should have been done immediately as soon as anyone found out. In fact, it should have been done before anyone found out. I don't know what she's thinking. I don't know what these people are thinking about this one. All right. Next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:09:31] Dear Jay, Jay, and Jay. I run a small video production outfit. I have tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of cameras heavy and bulky lighting gear and rigs that I have to store in a climate-controlled storage unit. I have to access this several times a week because I also rented two other local video companies. Unfortunately, the only climate-controlled unit within 40 minutes of my house requires that we are let in by a lonely security guy property manager. He's 55 divorced and has a developmentally delayed kid. He's super friendly. He lives on-site so he's always there and he does try really hard. But he's the most lonely MFR I've ever seen in my life and he's been manipulating the situation to force me to interact with him out of boredom, loneliness, or a power trip. Whenever I get my stuff, he wants to hear about what I shot, or he wants to tell me about the burrito bowl he made, or the Dallas Cowboys, or the M-effing weather for as long as possible before he lets me get my stuff. This adds up pretty quickly. Let's say I get stuff out four to five times a week and I waste 10 minutes on the way in and on the way out this adds up to three hours a week to entertain some dude or 15 hours a month or a hundred and eighty hours a year. When he's not talking about his feet or the soybean crop, he's now taken to pretending to work on an Excel spreadsheet. I'd love to move my stuff home, but I'm living in a tiny house while my home is being built. So, I don't see any sensible logical options, and I don't have a garage. Here's what I've tried so far. “Hi, Dave. I'm in a huge hurry today. Can you let me in the back?” “Hi, Dave. Can we keep it business-like except on Friday afternoon?” “Hi, Dave. I really need to be let in fast.” I've done the gray rock technique. I've been on my cell phone. I've pretended the world is on fire and he's been able to counter all my moves. I'm at my wit's end.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:12] So the gray rock technique by the way is an anti-narcissism technique, whereby you give basically one word really boring answers so that you're no longer interesting to the narcissist and then they theoretically leave you alone, but it doesn't necessarily work on people who are just bored out of their minds.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:11:30] Yes, if you walk by and go bunions, that doesn't really help.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:32] No.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:11:35] Okay. None of it seems to have an impact. He's gotten passive-aggressive and said things like, “You're too busy for old Dave. I know where I rate.” He's the onsite manager and his boss has a small hedge fund. I actually looked them up to see about escalating things knowing what I know about self-storage and RV park hedge funds. They won't fire him since he's keeping his units full. I feel like I've been defeated by this guy. Is there any way around it or any technique I'm not trying? Please help! Sincerely, A Hundred Eighty Hours a Year is Too Much.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:05] Oomph, well, this sounds like a huge pain, honestly. Like this sounds—

Jason DeFillippo: [00:12:10] Seriously.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:11] —so annoying. I would say you need a frank conversation. I understand you've tried to say, Hey, let's keep it business-like,” “Hey, look, I need to be let in,” “Look the world's on fire,” all that. I know you've tried this. I've got some ideas here. Usually, we can simply tell someone we’re in a hurry and that we need to go fast, but if that's not working that we've got a few options other than what you've tried already. First is the obvious to find a different storage place. I'm sure you've thought of this you'd have to move, it's a huge pain, there's no other close option, et cetera. So, look, I'm sure that's occurred to you will dispense with that.

[00:12:42] Two, setting boundaries. This is going to be tough but needs to get done. I totally empathize with this guy. He must be bored. He's kind of feels alone. You might he might not have any friends. I feel bad for him, of course, but I also know how you feel as well. And this has to stop next time you go in and you have some time which you seldom do but you need to make sure that you sit down maybe bring them a coffee or something and in the most friendly and understanding way possible, let him know that most of the time when you go in you are in a massive hurry. You know, he's bored sitting there. You understand how frustrating that might be. Highlight that while you like him, you really cannot delay your workday consistently every single time you come by to get your gear and that will be tough because it's going to make them a little bit sad and since you obviously care about other people you don't want to come across like an a-hole, but if boundary setting were easy, then we'd all do it and it wouldn't be such a problem for so many of us. If he gets passive-aggressive, I would call it out. I'd say, “Dave look again. I know it's lonely and slow here sometimes and I feel for you but I have to get going quickly today. It's got nothing to do with you and everything to do with the jobs I do and the clients that I serve,” and if he doesn't understand this in continues to waste time on a consistent basis, I would start recording the conversations. You've got to check with the legality in your area of doing this whether it's a one-party state, kind of two-party state sort of, check your eavesdropping regulations here. But during the conversations whenever he tries to delay, politely interrupt and say, “Dave, I really need to get my stuff. Dave, Dave I really need to get to my stuff, please.” Literally, repeat this until you're on the way to get to your stuff. You can be polite the entire time him not respecting. This is low-grade narcissism. Honestly, this is a very, very strange behavior. If he's still resistant then take your recordings and send them to the hedge fund along with documentation of the time wasted the attempts to access their property et cetera. And if the company still doesn't get the message, have an attorney notify the company that you are going to begin billing them for your time. Bill them for time like you would or any other videographer. Look if you charge a hundred bucks an hour, every 20 minutes is 33 bucks, and tell them look I'm taking this off the amount I pay each month for storage because I am now late for client work consistently. Or I have to take extra time in my day and add this to my client's work. You can explain your being delayed unreasonably by Dave that your rate is a hundred bucks an hour. Every 20 minutes is 33 bucks. I'm not going to pay that for storage this week you now owe me $333 for the X number of minutes I've been delayed. The unit is 600 bucks. Here's a check for I don't know 267 or whatever that is now. This is not really going to work. But what it will do is get the attention of the legal department at the hedge fund who will then have to refer this to management. You know, they'll say, ”No, you owe the full amount blah, blah,” and you'll say, “I understand that. If you don't want to fight over this then we should handle the actual problem because I would love to pay you the full $600 a month storage rate, but I also need to be able to get to my stuff without a 10 to 15-minute delay talking about Dave's feet. That's what I need.” And then they'll know that Dave is really causing an issue and especially if you've got recordings and documentation, then they can no longer deny it and it's got to cost them more money than an empty storage unit. That's really the key. So, this is the last resort though. Poor Dave is probably bored out of his mind. He's starved for human contact. I feel for the guy but I also feel for you. I want to help you get through this. And I suppose you could always just refer him to The Jordan Harbinger Show, and then he'd have something to talk about. But something tells me that might just make things a little bit worse. Again, I think, firm boundaries here are the way to go. The legal bluff is really a last resort kind of thing and could always not work out to your advantage. And if it does remember Dave's probably going to get fired if that happens because they're going to have to figure it out or they're going to have to warn him very sternly and he's going to know that it was you, but that part is up to you. It depends on how bad you need to get to your stuff in from the tone of this letter. It seems like this is you're at your wits’ end. Okay. What's next?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:02] Hi Jordan Team. I'm writing today about my fiancée’s sister about a year ago. She moved to a new city for a new job and has been having a really hard time developing a social network. As far as we know. She hasn't made any friends, isn't dating, and doesn't have any hobbies. She chooses to work long hours and spends the rest of her time at home, cooking, and cleaning. My fiancée and I are worried that she's lonely unfulfilled and may even be suffering from depression. Her parents are also concerned in the way in which they try to help her is to criticize her and then demand that she do other specific things that they think would be beneficial. These conversations seem to always end in tears and have led to her being dependent on others for direction in her own life. Recently, their parents got upset and demanded that we step in to help her out by introducing her to our contacts in our area. My fiancée and I would like to help her but aren't sure how. We want to do, so in a way that helps her support herself, and we also don't want to come off as critical, controlling, or hurt her feelings. I'd love to hear your perspective on this and any thoughts you have on helping people help themselves. Thanks, Stuck with a Sad Sister-in-Law.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:06] Yeah. This is a bummer because it sounds like a kind of a. Isolating and sad situation for her. It sounds a little bit like depression, but it's really hard to say without further detail. One thing missing here is that nobody seems to have actually talked to her to see what she wants. Maybe I'm missing that but a lot of telling her what to do using guilt to control her, but nobody’s really asking her what she actually wants. Maybe she's a loner and she's just fine without people meddling. Maybe she's a cat lady. Maybe she's in the closet and doesn't want to tell you that she actually has other things going on and just maybe she wants you to think that she's home cooking. Maybe she's a workaholic and that's the way she likes it. It's really hard to say. It does sound lonely. But we don't really know right, Jason. They're kind of assuming, “I'm married and I'm so happy and your parents want grandkids.” “So why aren't you out dating,” and maybe she's like, “Screw you, I like Battlestar Galactica and cooking shows.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:02] Exactly, maybe she's been a henpecked by her sister her whole life and just is finally happy being out on her own and that's what she wants and she's just annoyed that everybody's getting up all in her business. You know, she's like, “I want to come home watch Netflix. Play on the computer,” maybe play some videogames, maybe she's a playing Xbox all night, and she has a vibrant social life, but it's just online. It's annoying that people just want to get up in her grill for this when she just might be happy. So this email doesn't actually say what. She wants because nobody seems to have asked her. They just assumed. I had a life like that. I always wanted to just live my life play on my computer, play my videogames, watch TV, have my cats, have my dogs. And everybody was graphing their life, you know, desires onto mind. It was just annoying. So maybe she's just getting annoyed that you’re bugging her.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:51] Yeah, I would begin by asking her what she wants not just in this situation but out of life in general because it seems like nobody's focused on that at all here. That's where this starts. Changing other people is tough. In many ways, it's kind of the opposite of self-help. You know, trying to change somebody else, wanting to change people isn't inherently bad. In many cases, it's totally understandable. In some cases, it's absolutely necessary. After all, if we're willing to do the work to change ourselves shouldn't other people be willing to change to especially those we love, I mean come on. We've got all the tools. If we can change our own character, then can't we inspire other people to do the same thing. I think we all know that we can't get other people to change without their commitment. Rather than going into all that the real first step here is to get to the bottom of what she wants to do and whether her current lifestyle is making her happy or leaving her unfulfilled and rather than going into what it takes to change other people or get them to see things the way we think they should see them. I highly suggest you and your fiancée sit down with her. Don't bring the parents, don't pressure her into doing anything she doesn't want to do. The reason you shouldn't bring the parents is because the parents are not necessarily going to respect this process or her or you. They're just going to say, “But we like grandkids.” Or they're going to say, “You're not happy. I know you I'm your mom.” You know, that doesn't help. You need to help her figure out what she wants out of life and right now, no one's really even tried this yet, which is one of the causes of the problem in the first place. I've got a whole big long article on how to get others to change should they actually want to and the link is in the show notes here. How to Help People Change for the Right Reasons is what it's called. It'll be linked up in the show notes and it's at jordanharbinger.com/articles along with everything else that I've written in the past few months.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:21:35] This is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back after this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:39] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:56] This episode is also sponsored by Rocket Mortgage.

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[00:24:08] Thanks for listening and supporting the show and to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if you'd be so kind please drop us a nice rating and review on iTunes or your podcast player of choice. It really helps us out and helps build the show family. If you want some tips on how to do that, head on over to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. Now, let's hear some more of your questions here on Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:35] All right, Jason. What else we got?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:24:37] Hello, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm a 26-year-old female architect. About six months ago, I started a job I love. My issue is I feel excluded by my fellow millennial co-workers. It's a small company of nine people including myself and there are only three millennials in total. There was some friction at first with my female co-worker. For the first month, she simply ignored me. The male millennial is nice like everybody else at the company, but the two of them get along extremely well, to the point where I thought they were dating but I recently discovered that she has a boyfriend from outside of work. I've tried different approaches such as attempting to converse with them. Usually, they're laughing and having fun. I want to know what's going on in join in only to have the conversation die and for them to return to silence. This has never happened to me at my previous jobs. I usually become friends with my co-workers and would even go out to lunch with them. I thought that perhaps they just knew each other and confided in each other because they have more time together. I decided to just give it time and keep being nice. Six months later, nothing has changed except the girl now acknowledges I’m there and we'll say hello back if I say something first. Still, it's something that bugs me because I feel excluded. She seems to get along so well with everybody else. It makes me feel like I'm the crazy one. It doesn't affect my work because they aren't part of my team, but it doesn't feel great when people leave the room just because you entered it. What can I do if anything? What can I learn from the situation? I understand that not all co-workers develop friendships, but how do I not take it personally and feel bad about being excluded from all the laughter and fun they're having. Best wishes, The Third Millennial.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:13] Well, clicks are so immature. I'm just going to throw that out there. I think it happens with people in general, but it's kind of a bad cultural idea here inside a company. Look, it's okay if you like some people more than others. It's not okay to exclude people that you work with. That’s super ridiculous, especially when they're your age. It sucks, but you can't really force people not to be jerks and exclude other people. It sounds to me like the girl is obviously crushing on the guy and there was no quote-unquote competition at all. And now you're there so she's like, “Ugh, I want so and so all to myself,” even though she's got a boyfriend, that doesn't mean that's not how the dynamic is working in the office. It sounds like a workplace romance, even if there's no romance directly or overtly there yet. It sounds like she feels threatened. I would just keep my head down and work or find a different job and don't worry about getting people like this to like you. Remember, this is her insecurities. I'm reading minds a little bit here, but it sounds like she doesn't want you to become friends with them because then that guy will talk to you and not her and dah, dah, dah. This is an attention game and you can't win because you're competing against somebody else's insecurities that they either don't recognize or haven't been able to fix it themselves. So, the idea that you're just going to come in and be non-threatening it's not you it's them. That is something that you cannot fix and hopefully, that's a relief because if you think you can't fix it then you can stop trying. Don't worry about getting people like that to like you. It's just not worth it. Your grand prize at the end of the day as you get somebody to tolerate you at your own place of work and then eventually still exclude you from something because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed. It’s just not worth it.

[00:27:55] Jen chimed in on this one. She said she used to work at a workplace that had a lot of clicks and it was just miserable because you had to play political alliances and you had to figure out who was in a good mood that day and are they going to invite you to lunch or they going to ignore you. And I've been at work places with clicks to and they're very problematic because you've got employees complaining, you've got other management complaining. You don't know if you're going to be on the ins that day with the cool guys or not. Are they going to ignore you or they’re going to leave for lunch without you? It's just something you should never have to think about in the workplace and that's a cultural thing and it upper management is probably not paying attention to you guys that much because you're lower down in the totem pole and younger, so they're not going to be able to fix it and they have no interest in doing so anyway.

[00:28:38] I would say if you enjoy the job great, make friends with the older folks and I'm sorry to say that this isn't probably going to fix itself. Or find another company that has a culture that is more of a fit for you, more younger people, and you could even talk to management. If you do decide to leave you can say, “Look, you know, I love working here. I loved everyone that I worked with except for the people my age. I felt excluded they really did go out of their way to make sure that I didn't really hang out with them or be welcome and I want to go someplace that has more people my age, because being a part of a culture that's welcoming is really important to me and I don't expect the people that I'm working with who are 45 years old with kids to want to hang out with me and I understand that so I'm going to leave for that reason.” That's the least you can do and then they can sort of try to fix that problem in the future. But right now, it's probably very low priority to make sure that one person feels welcomed especially if you're the sort of odd man out. It's really a bummer but there is something to be said for company culture, especially when it comes to millennials. This is something that's very important to you-slash-us depending on what generation I am. I’m never, never sure. And so, you do have to make sure that you're maintaining work sanity. I know what it's like to do something that you love but work with people that you don't like or work with people that exclude you. I know exactly what that feels like and let me tell you I spent years doing it and it was not worth it. I should have moved on a long time ago.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:29:56] I'm just looking at the numbers here. There's six other people besides the two millennials, her, and this one bad Seed. I would say, just me personally, make friends with the other six and when she walks in the room do the same to her if that's what is going to make you feel better. But also, the other six people are higher up in the food chain, they're going to be you know, senior architects and management, and those are the people you want to be friends with it work. Anyway, if you're there to find friends, it's not really a job so much as you're trying to build your social circle inside of work, which as we all know never really kind of pans out for the long term. I would say if you want to further your career get with the people who are above you learn from them and use that experience whereas, Okay, I can't hang out with these people on my lunch break, but I can make friends with everybody else who knows more than I do. I can learn from them and thus, you know, catapult my career even farther.” Look at it as a plus not a negative is what I would do.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:53] Yeah, basically, I agree with everything other than turning it around on them.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:30:57] Yeah, I know as soon as I said, I’m like that's kind of petty.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:01] That's your petty BS coming through there, Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:02] Exactly, I know.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:04] But I get it. I understand the temptation to want to do that like, “Yeah, how about this.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:08] But it's just going to make you look like an a-hole, so don’t do that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:10] Of course. Yeah, you know, what I would do is I would say look I would completely ignore the fact that she's doing that. Don't ignore her. I would ignore the fact that she's doing that because eventually she might decide she doesn't like that guy anymore, you know, maybe she gets rejected by him and then she becomes your best friend. You just don't know maybe she leaves. You just can't control that. I would do what Jason said stick around make friends outside of work and realize that the people inside work that like you are going to be the ones that helped your career and not worry about going to happy hour. I would just say you can you can network in other ways and make your friends in other ways and you can work at work and you can learn a hell of a lot more by not getting distracted by going out to lunch with these two yodels.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:52] Yeah, exactly because the thing that triggered me on this was she even starts your letter about 6 months ago I started a job I love. So, that means she really enjoys being there and she likes the people she's with except for this one thorn in her side. I don't want to take a job that she loves away from her just because of that. So yeah move on up and keep on going. Best of luck.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:12] Exactly. All right next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:32:15] Good morning team. I'm currently enrolled in a four-year social work program and I'll graduate in December. I've already started my job search around my area and I'm well aware that in my field. We don't make much money. I recently stumbled upon a specialized Care planner job with a local law firm helping clients and their families with special needs come up with a care plan. This job sounds very interesting, especially since I'm looking at a dual enrollment master's program for MSW/JD degree. I'd love to apply; however, they're requesting a cover letter with pay requirements. I have no clue what to request because salaries are all over the place, especially in my area. Is there a comfortable middle ground I can ask for that doesn't make me seem overzealous? Thank you, Confused About Compensation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:01] As you probably know from our negotiation episodes with Alex Kouts, which we can link again here in the show notes. You are not supposed to as you know, quote a salary requirement first. That is a trap. I typically would recommend not answering that question and to do so in an artful way if you're going to dodge it. You can literally write base salary is only one of the factors in my decision. If you're willing to make an offer I would be happy to consider it alongside other opportunities that I'm looking at. That works great in a somewhat competitive scenario. If this is a less competitive or down-market roll. I don't know exactly what that might be for you. I would consider just reaching out to whatever contact you can get for the hiring manager and ask them if they have a range or budget for the position. Because what you don't want to do is low ball and they're like great and then you're starting from there and you have to negotiate your way up for the next five years. You also don't want to quote something high and then they go, “Oh, well, they want something that's too high. So, let's just go with somebody else,” and then they hire somebody for a perfectly acceptable number and you lose the job. It's a lose-lose for you to throw the first number out there. I would also push back on the idea that there's a lack of available data. There's always data. It just depends on how much work you are willing to put in to access the data. Talk to people working in the field already, talk to people that have had the role, talk to people that have had adjacent roles, Google the hell out of it, Glassdoor has an impressive reach of data about salary and compensation.

[00:34:32] You really don't know what they might have available for this. One of the reasons they might be asking you for the numbers, of course, for typical negotiation purposes, but it could also be because they don't necessarily know, but they probably have a rough idea. So, you stand to lose by listing the first number always, always, always make them list the first number even if it's a cover letter situation, you can do your research here. There's no reason for you to have to throw out a salary. Again, we'll link to these negotiation episodes in the show notes as well, and Alex Kouts and I are going to be making a course on this stuff pretty soon. All right, what's next?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:35:07] Hello, Jordan and Jason. My wife and I are completely different in our thought processes. I'm extremely logic-based and she's entirely emotion-based. I often enjoy how my wife and I can play off each other’s strengths. She's helped me become a much more emotional and considerate person and I like to think I've helped her become a bit more analytical. However, there are several times when my wife's emotions drive me a little crazy. She often refuses to do something because she doesn't like how it feels or makes her anxious, even though the benefits are obvious. Here's an example. She recently received an offer from a firm. She's been doing freelance work for. The offer is 10% below the industry average for our area. And I recommended she counted with 10% to 15% above the industry average. She told me she doesn't feel comfortable doing that and continued to get emotional when I tried explaining the benefits of providing a counteroffer. I don't know what to do without sounding like a mansplainer. At what point does trying to teach someone become condescending? I feel attacked when I try to help and why do I get blamed for trying to help. I really want my wife to be happy. I just don't know how to deal with her emotions sometimes. I appreciate any thoughts you can provide. Best, Just Trying to Help.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:19] Well, this is an interesting dynamic and very common. Sometimes people don't really want help. They just want to vent or discuss something. And if someone doesn't want help and you start helping them, you'll hit the wall. Then if you keep pushing, you'll probably end up sounding a bit condescending as you get more and more frustrated. In these situations, ideally before emotions start to run high asked if she wants your advice or if she's just venting. Obviously do this in a way where either answer is acceptable. What I mean by that is you don't say, “Hey, do you want really want help or you just whining.” Not that way. You can literally say, “So, do you want me to propose some solutions or is this more of you kind of just need to be heard right now and get off your chest?” That's an acceptable way to ask about this and I routinely do that in my own relationship and also you just have to be aware that sometimes you're going to get the answer. Well, you know, I want to help solving this problem, but you'll also probably get a non-answer where she just keeps venting and that's fine. That's your answer. She's not going to go, “I don't really want you to solve the problem. I just want to vent.” She's just going to keep venting. That's the answer. You may be surprised at first on this but just make sure you get her honest answer and let her think about it. Once you've practiced this for a while, her and you will both get better at recognizing when the other person wants to help or just wants to vent about something. This is a massive help because it if just avoids a ton of conflict.

[00:37:50] Jen and I have the same dynamic. If I get the idea she wants to vent because she keeps rejecting my ideas or gets frustrated with them, I'll often just listen and not offer anything until I'm asked. If I am asked but the ideas are rejected, I usually assume that she mostly just wants to vent and is not interested in strategies just yet. And to be perfectly transparent, there are plenty of times where I just want to vent and I don't want to solve the problem either and Jen is had to learn that too. I'll say something she'll be like, “Oh, that's fine. I can just do this this, this, this,” and I'm like, “No, I'm going to keep complaining in the car here.” “Yeah, I'll fix it but not right now. I'm still going to go off on this person to you,” and she's like, “Okay. This is just something that Jordan needs to do. It's a steam release valve.”

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:34] It's always good to err on the side of venting.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:37] Exactly. Yeah, because if you let someone vent you don't help solve the problem then at least they got to vent. But if they're trying to vent and you're trying to solve the problem, they're just going to get pissed off and this has helped us avoid a ton of arguments. Over time with practice, you'll both become better communicators inside your marriage, and you'll know when she wants advice and when she just wants to vent and congrats on getting married by the way. You're at the beginning of the best part of your life and you'll be navigating this communication stuff for a while. So, get used to it strap yourself in and enjoy the ride. And by the way, this is not just men and women there are plenty of times where every relationship has this problem and it goes in both directions. Sometimes it's embarrassing for somebody to admit this or they don't even want to say it or they don't recognize that this is happening in the moment. So, you've kind of got to figure it out and talk to each other so that you can both figure it out on the fly.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:34] We'll be right back with more Feedback Friday right after this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:37] This episode is sponsored in part by Everlane. I love this company a lot of brands talk about making the best basics and yet they often disappoint. The fit sucks. They're super expensive. They stretch out. They shrink in the wash. They fall apart after 2 months. So, you just buy new ones and start the process all over again. Uniform by Everlane is a collection of men's basics that look and fit great. They actually last. This is super high quality. When you get the stuff which I have it, you can feel it. You can see it and you can feel it. It's cut well. The material is really nice. It's really, really soft. They've got classic tees to four-way stretch denim. Each uniform item has been tested to simulate a full year of washing and wear, and I wonder how they do that. I got to watch a video on this or something. They want to make sure it holds up to everyday life. But every time I wore one of these, I felt like it's just brand new really nice stuff and I bought a bunch more. It's quickly become my favorite set of shirts and favorite basics here in my closet. The entire uniform collection is backed by a 365-day guarantee. And when I asked about what this was, they told me that they're so confident in what they make. Let's say a t-shirt gets a hole, sweatshirt collar shrinks up, shirt loses its color, you get a little bit of an armpit thing going on there, they will replace it with a new one in a year. I mean that's crazy to me but that shows how much they stand behind this product. You can wear this stuff several times a week. It's going to look great. It's going to feel great. It's going to hold up guaranteed. Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:08] Get free shipping on your first uniform order at everlane.com/jordan. That's free shipping on the most comfortable basics, you'll ever wear only at everlane.com/jordan. One more time, that's everlane.com/jordan for free shipping on your first order.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:24] This episode is also sponsored by Ship. Jen and I have been together for seven plus years. We just had a baby. So, I never thought I'd be able to credibly advertise a dating app, of course, ever again. I mean, jeez, when we first got together, I think dating in apps was this new and novel thing at least on mobile apps. There's a new app called Ship that we actually both uses because it lets you swipe for your friends. So, it's kind of a funny situation here because, of course, we're using it to set up my brother-in-law. He dates a ton. Jen's parents are like, “When is he getting married?” And I’m like, “He probably wants to,“ but he also, you know, kind of got it made right now. Here's how it works right if you're single, you invite a group of friends to join your crew, which is like a little chat room type situation. Those friends help find you matches. And if you're not single like me, you can still join help your friends out. You don't need to make a profile nothing like that. You just join your friend’s crew. You look through all the profiles of all the people and you swipe for them and you can talk about the profiles. You can see who everyone else is choosing. So, it's actually really, really fun. It's 100% just voyeuristic like vicarious living and I got to tell you it's pretty entertaining. Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:42:36] Finding data is more fun if you do it with friends. Download Ship, the dating app that lets you swipe with friends. That's S-H-I-P. Search for Ship dating in the app store and start swiping today. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:47] This episode is also sponsored in part by Native deodorant. I know if you have heard this. Deodorant can be super unhealthy and bad for you and Native is formulated without aluminum, parabens, talc. It's filled with ingredients found in nature like coconut oil which is antimicrobial, shea butter which is the stuff you put all over your hands a lot of the time. It's a moisturizer. Tapioca starch which absorbs wetness. No animal testing. It is free shipping, free returns. I didn’t even know they would test deodorant on animals that just seems weird. So well Native is not doing that. I've definitely tried a lot of these so-called natural deodorants before and you find that they're just used natural really unhealthy stuff. A lot of times people think natural is always healthy. Aluminum is found in nature. Right? Like it's just still not good for you. Native gets rid of all of that stuff and just because something seems inert like talc doesn't mean that it's not all so bad for you to be applying all day every day.  This stuff works just because it's natural doesn't mean you got to sacrifice on odor and wetness protection. They've got over 8,000 five-star reviews, which is kind of a big deal. And less is more. They've got simpler ingredients. You've actually heard of the stuff that's in there. There's not these crazy long chemical names and it does smell quite naturals. They have coconut and vanilla, which is the most popular scent which sounds like you might want to eat it and wear it, lavender and rose, cucumber and mint, eucalyptus and mint. And there's no risk to try it, free returns and exchanges here in the good old US of A, and the stuff smells natural and it certainly smells better than I smell Au naturel if you know what I'm saying. Jason, what do we have for them?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:44:24] For 20% off your first purchase visit, nativedeodorant.com and use promo code JHS during checkout. That's nativedeodorant.com promo code JHS at checkout for 20% off your first purchase.

[00:44:37] Thank you for supporting the show your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. Now back to the show for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:52] Okay next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:44:53] Hello, Jordan and team. I recently graduated from the University of Michigan with a Master's in Applied Mathematics and I felt ready to leave the academia. Before I graduated, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do so I ended up applying to the PhD program and I got in. I don't know if I want to commit another four to six years of my life to academia and thought a good plan of action was to defer the offer for one year and try my luck in the industry. Throughout my education, I've taken courses in computer programming that would complement my mathematical training and could be valuable in academia as well as industry-related jobs. I've been trying several online job boards, consulting companies, reaching out to people in my network, and looking for new connections in hopes of finding an appropriate offer. Additionally, over the last several months, I've been teaching myself new programming languages and packages to make my resume more attractive to my potential employers. Despite these facts, I've only managed to get a handful of interviews and no offers over the last several months. I can't help but think that my skills are not valuable or there's something about the way that I present myself to these potential employers that scares them away from me. In order to stay on top of my finances, I've been doing temporary work that is very low paid and not relevant to the industry I want to get into. My confidence and resources are dwindling fast, and I don't know what else to do. How can I keep my spirits up and either adjust or completely change my strategy to help me find a career before I give up and go back to school? Sincerely, Jobs are Harder than Math.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:23] First of all, thanks for listening and letting me know that super smart people also enjoy the show. That's always a great feeling. I went to law school because I couldn't find a job and I thought more education that has to be better, why not. More education is not always better as I found. It cost a lot of money and it costs a lot of time to go to school because you can't find something else. It's opportunity cost that you could be working and earning money instead of getting schooled in spending a ton of money. I'm wondering if you can teach instead and if you join a PhD program, is that funded or do you have to pay because that's a huge difference. If you have to pay do not go if you're not sure because you're digging a massive debt hole for something you probably won't enjoy and then you won't want as a career, which is very dangerous. You should skill stack. Work jobs that might not be what you want right now, but help build those skills or any skills that you would stack and make you more competitive. It could be doing something in another country. That's a bit more outside the industry but lets you get fluent in another language like Chinese or something like that. You could be doing something that is not in your industry at all but gets you management experience or sales experience or leadership. You could do something mundane and live like a college student and just keep grinding until you find a career entry point. You could do something that doesn't require a ton of time and maybe isn't super highly paid but lets you continue to do the job search and maybe study things on your own, maybe you're doing Mandarin flashcards or something every day.

[00:47:57] I see school as one of the worst options of the many that I can think of in your case, not school in general, but going to school to sort of kill time because you're trying to find another job and you can't. The school is much more ROI negative in almost every instance here because you're paying a lot of money, you're killing time. You probably won't want to finish the program, and then if you do finish the program, your reward is qualification and a degree in a field that you don't want to be in. That's not good. It's a sad state of affairs here. We're getting an applied math PhD is easier than finding a job with a living wage here in the United States that that is not good. Honestly, you'd be better off working a temporary job doing frigging HVAC or something like that in high demand where you're making fifty-plus dollars an hour and then doing the job search in your quote-unquote spare time because at least those jobs those blue-collar jobs, they're real skills. You're going to learn a completely different skill set. That's useful and you're going to get paid a decent wage. That's where the jobs are. Just ask Mike Rowe.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:01] If you can't find a job with a masters is a PhD really going to move the needle that much. There's got to be somebody out there that wants somebody with a masters. It's not like he's coming in with an associate's degree.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:12] Well, you're going to get a job teaching applied math at a university.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:15] Yeah, that's about it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:16] And that's what they said, “I don't want to be in academia.” It's like well, then definitely don't get a PhD—

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:20] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:21] —in applied math. That is not going to be helpful at all for you. All right last but not least.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:27] Hey Jordan. We met briefly at your talk at Google. You spoke in detail about the power of our networks and went over some strategies for reigniting them like the Connect Four Method, but what does cultivating these relationships look like? Especially for young college grads whose friends are also busy establishing themselves. After a few minutes of catching up. I find it difficult to find new things to say or to ask about which leads to these people drifting into the relationship graveyard again. How do I continue to engage with these folks beyond small talk every week? I would hunch that the solution is to add value to these relationships by elevating them beyond this kind of casual interchange, but I feel holier-than-thou asking if my friends need help with anything because we're all in very similar situations—young, inexperienced, and figuring our way around engineering positions in various tech companies. From that perspective, what would I even have to offer? And how can I offer it without sounding fake or like I'm trying to gain? Is this my own mindset holding me back or is there something I can do with these kinds of relationships specifically which will make the process less awkward? Regards, Can't Google This One.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:33] So you called it, the next step is the introduction. You don't have to worry about continually making the small talk go forward and you don't ask if people need help. It's your job to elicit what they need based on what they're doing and where they are. So, saying, “Hey, how can I help you?” That is nice, but you are sort of throwing the monkey on someone else's back and most people will just say, ”Oh, I don't know. Thanks though,” or they'll be like, “Keep On trucking,” you know, they're not going to have a real answer. So, if you can elicit how you can help them and then offer to do that, that's more helpful than just asking. You can also ask something like, “What's the hardest part of your job?” But again, most people are just going to give you a BS answer. Instead of asking, how can I help which just puts the monkey right on their back, ask them is there anyone I can introduce you to that would be helpful. I've been making it a point to meet a ton of people so they might say, “Oh, well, I don't know I was thinking about moving into sales. Do you know any sales people,” or “Yeah, I mean I was wondering if I might transfer to our Berlin office. I don't know. Do you know anyone that's working there? That's not from there. I'd like to talk to someone there.” That type of thing is more helpful and it's an easier way to elicit what people need. So, again, you don't have to worry about keeping small talk going, make those intros. Use the Double Opt-In Introduction, which I explain how to do in Six-Minute Networking and you can find that at jordanharbinger.com course. And thanks for attending my Google Talk. That was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing that. It really enjoyed meeting all you googlers as well. Apparently, a lot of people tuned into that one remotely and a lot of people have been viewing it inside Google, and commenting on it. So that's really cool too. In fact, we will link to that in the show notes. I'm going to go grab that link right now and we'll throw it right in the show notes. We can embed it in the post if people want to watch my Google Talk on networkinging.

[00:52:97] Life Pro Tip of the Week. I grab something cool from Reddit here. I found this gem. Of course, on Reddit, you can spend way too much time if you're not careful, but I loved this Pro Tip since we talked about Glassdoor earlier in the show. When reading a company's Glassdoor, pay attention to the date of the review. If you notice a lot of good reviews in a short timeframe that may mean that HR sent out a bulletin for employees to write reviews for the company. So, the person is Reddit user here says, “My company's HR recently sent out a memo to all employees and left up many flyers to tell us to review our company on Glassdoor.” This is allowed by Glassdoor. It's a tactic they advocate for companies wishing to combat their negative reviews or low rating because, of course, most people rate companies only when they're pissed off which that makes sense. “Though the memo or flyer say to leave honest reviews. There's obviously an implication that they want us to leave good and positive reviews.” Well, of course, they do. And this user goes on to say, “When I initially started working for the company. The rating was in the low 3s and the reviews were pretty sporadic in terms of the date. After the memo I saw a huge amount of positive reviews in a short timeframe and their rating went up to 4.6. This overshadowed the negative reviews, which I found to be accurate.” And if you have a lot of bad reviews in a short timeframe that usually means there's been a layoff or negative restructure in management. So definitely pay attention to Glassdoor. I've looked there for other companies. And I find that it's a nice place to look but yeah, it does way typically negative because if you're happy at a company, you probably aren't out trying to smack talk them on the Internet depending.

[00:53:55] Recommendation of the week American Factory. It's on Netflix. It's about a factory in Ohio that gets bought by a Chinese billionaire and they fly these Chinese people out to train these Americans and how to make the glass and just a lot of challenges with the unions and the way that the Chinese work and the way the Americans work and the way that the workers get along with each other or don't get along. A fascinating look at blue collar factory in the middle of Ohio kind of the area where I grew up in Michigan and I got to say I'm not super hopeful about American manufacturing and the rights of workers. I mean, it's just not looking too good because we need are cheap crap and China is more than willing to abuse their people to get it done. It's just not looking good. So, I found that super interesting. American Factory, we’ll link to it in the show notes. It's available on Netflix.

[00:54:46] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. And if you want to come to prison with us in February 2020, send an email to prison@jordanharbinger.com, and I will add you to the interest list. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com

[00:55:03] Quick shout-out to Juan. Man, I was in Mexico at a resort called the Montage in Cabo at an event and I walk in at 11 p.m. at night to this dead restaurant on the ocean with a couple of friends and this guy puts his guitar down right that and goes, “Oh my gosh, are you Jordan Harbinger?” And I thought my friend said like put him up to it because it was an event I've been at all week. I smiled. He's like, “Jordan, Jordan. I'm a huge fan,” and I was just blown away by this guy. Juan, such a cool guy. I was so surprised to see a show fan in Mexico. Let me just tell you, he listed a bunch of his favorite episodes, a couple of the show guests that he had listed were actually with me at this conference in Mexico. So, it was just very surreal moment in time. So, thanks, Juan, I appreciate you listening to the show brother.

[00:55:52] Everybody go back and check out the guests, Brian Grazer and Robert Spalding, if you haven't yet. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, check out Six-Minute Networking. That's our free course on networking and relationship development, jordanharbinger.com/course. Don't try to do it later. You may have you try to make up for lost time when it comes to networking, you are in for a rude awakening. You got to dig the well before you're thirsty. That is the key here. The drills take a few minutes per day. Ignore this at your own peril. The best thing you can do is start right now. You can find it all for free at jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm also on Instagram and Twitter at @JordanHarbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. Videos of our interviews are at jordanharbinger.com/youtube as well. Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:40] You can check out my irreverent tech podcast Grumpy Old Geeks. We discuss what went wrong on the internet and who's to blame along the cyber security, apps, gadgets, books and more and you can get that where you're listening to this show right now or just go to gog.show for all your listening options, and keep the kids out of the room because we are a bit salty.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:56] This show is created an association with PodcastOne and this episode was produced by Jen Harbinger, edited by Jase Sanderson, and show notes for this episode are by Robert Fogarty, music by Evan Viola. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests of their own and yes, I’m a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others, so share the show at those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipeline very excited to bring it to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.