184: Naveen Jain | How Moonshot Thinking Will Save the World

Transcript for Naveen Jain - How Moonshot Thinking Will Save the World (Episode 184)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer Jason DeFillippo. Growing up with scarcity and lack of food forces us to focus on survival. This type of inward thinking largely precludes having the time or energy to look at the big picture. Today's guest, Naveen Jain, while he grew up sometimes not knowing if there would be food on the table or not, he's thinking both very small and very, very large. Naveen runs a portfolio of businesses being a serial entrepreneur. However, his primary endeavors these days include looking at our gut biome and the bacteria that live in it and their ability to cause or prevent disease. However, he's also pushing forward to get us to the moon. Yeah, I know we've been there, but Naveen wants to mine it for resources that are extremely scarce here on earth because he knows these resources are key to human survival on planet earth. It sounds a bit like science fiction, which makes sense coming from someone on the board of both the XPRIZE and Singularity University. Today, we'll explore why the highly curious are the highly motivated and how the ability to shift perspectives quickly Trump's being smart any day.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:08] If you want to know how I fill my network with amazing folks like Naveen, who's a good friend of mine, check out our course, Six-Minute Networking. It's free and it's about relationship development either in your business or in your personal life. And you can find that at jordanharbinger.com/course. Here's Naveen Jain.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:24] You know a lot of people have been asking me to have you on the show. They're like, "Have this guy Naveen Jain. Do you know this guy Naveen Jain?" And I started to do the research and I thought, okay, he runs three companies. Or is it only three companies? Or I'm forgetting a few here?

Naveen Jain: [00:01:40] I'm listening.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:40] Okay, and then you have three kids. Are you aware that you have three kids? I don't know. You have three companies. I don't know if you can pay attention to all of those things at once.

Naveen Jain: [00:01:49] Yes, I do have three kids. Yeah. And the reason I know them is because I'm just so proud of them. Of all the things I have done in life, if you were to ask me what's one thing that I would just absolutely see as my biggest accomplishments, I would say that what kids are actually doing is not who they are, but what they actually stand for and what they're doing is probably one of the best things I've ever done.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:11] So there's not like one kid that you would trade for a better company.

Naveen Jain: [00:02:14] What's interesting is that our oldest, I would just, you know, amazing. He's 17-year-old when he started Kairos Society to help all the college entrepreneurs around the world begin the largest college entrepreneurship thing. After he graduates, he starts a company, sells a company, and now focuses on affordable diesel, affordable housing, affordable childcare, affordable senior care, and really looking at how can we as entrepreneurs find the technologies to help the middle class actually live a better life. So unlike a Silicon Valley, really just so much into technology. So technology is looking for a problem. He comes from saying, here are the problems that everybody feels. The millennials graduate from. They can probably pay for the rent, but they have more money to pay for the deposit. How do you solve that problem? Right? So he's really looking at the real life problem solving that. Our daughter graduated from Stanford and she's Stanford STEM Fellow, Stanford Mayfield Fellows. She's on the Board of Stanford Women in Business, Youth Ambassador for United Nations. But what I'm saying is all she cared about was women empowerment and what she did she works at the AI company to remove the gender bias we're hiding. So that means they found their own niche. Our youngest one is now graduating from Stanford this year and he became Schwarzman Scholar because you really want him to see that as we are going as a world humanity together, the political divide is separating the geographies. Entrepreneurs know no boundaries. It is the political boundaries for politicians. Can you bridge that gap? So he is a Schwarzman Scholar going to China at Tsinghua.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:53] So none of them work for you?

Naveen Jain: [00:03:55] None of them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:56] Do you think any of them would consider working for you?

Naveen Jain: [00:03:58] I would be very, very disappointed if they actually were to say, "Hey, dad can I do come and do the things with you."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:06] Really why?

Naveen Jain: [00:04:06] For a very simple reason because I want them to be going out and doing their amazing things. There are so many problems in the world. If the two best minds have to work on one problem that means one of them is not necessarily.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:22] Fair enough. Okay. That seems like there's a lot of pressure, not necessarily from you, but upward pressure to become an entrepreneur in your family.

Naveen Jain: [00:04:29] Actually to me, the entrepreneur is not about starting a company. Entrepreneurship actually about solving the problem. So our daughter did not start the company. She joined the company when they are under 10 people. Now, they happened to be 150 people. In true sense, that's not entrepreneurship. That was simply about other people who are focusing on the same goal and can she join them to essentially pursue the mission.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:54] That's interesting. Because I think right now there's a lot of kids and adults, they think, "I have to start a company. I have to be an influencer. I have to be my own boss. Otherwise I'm not an entrepreneur and I'm not doing something important." But really it sounds like what you're saying is you can join another cause and that still makes you entrepreneurial. You don't have to be the guy whose face or the gal whose face or name is on the building.

Naveen Jain: [00:05:18] So to me, I divide the human beings into three types of people: people who think of a problem -- every one of us are really good about that, so let's call them human beings. People who are really smart and come up with a solution to that problem, we call them visionaries. We call whatever you want. And there's only one group of people who go and say, "Let's go solve that problem." Those are entrepreneurs. You could be working for a large company and you focus on solving a problem. You are an entrepreneur. We can call it entrepreneurial, whatever you call it. But fundamentally an entrepreneur is someone who can go out and solve a problem. You're a problem solver and that's entrepreneurship to me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:57] Yeah, I like that. I can, I can imagine that. So how did you eventually develop this entrepreneurial mindset? I know you grew up in India, you grew up relatively poor. Your father doesn't sound like the type of guy who went, "Look, you're bound for great things. You're going to build a big company, go for it." It's kind of the opposite.

Naveen Jain: [00:06:13] Somehow these people have this idea of one fine morning, it just happens. To me, life is a sack of accidents and they just happen in life with this continuum. And you know, sometimes we go back to rewrite history and say, "Aha, I know exactly what had happened." Literally, you think about it for a while and suddenly the last thing that happens is not really the one that made you do it. It just happens to be the last thing that you say, "Okay, fine, enough is enough now."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:44] Yeah, so you can identify it. Yes. It's the straw that broke the camel's back.

Naveen Jain: [00:06:46] Yeah, but not necessarily the thing when the camel's back was already broken. So I think in that sense. You know, my brother started a company and he was just doing it. And at the time I just thought, oh my God, those things are not something for me and I'm just going out and doing things. And it just so happened, I was at Microsoft, I started at Microsoft very early. Microsoft was a really tiny company and nobody really knew about it. And I was at Microsoft and this internet thing was coming along and I'm seeing this Yahoo is coming along. And these companies -- that you probably won't even remember, you were too young -- the Lycos, Excite, and Magellan. I mean you probably --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:24] AltaVista.

Naveen Jain: [00:07:24] AltaVista is much, much later, much later. But anyway, so I just started thinking that this thing is really something fundamentally could change the way we live. And I wanted to go out and do something and essentially I quit. I wanted to go do something on the internet. And the fact is I really didn't know what and that was an interesting thing is that I quit the job without knowing what I was going to do. And then I spent the weekend, just kind of figuring out what it is. Now I have no job, I have no job security. What should I be doing? And that I think to me is really the lesson that I learned was people who try to find something while they're still literally having two feet on two separate boats. And I know what happens to them. They normally fall in the water, right? You have to cut the umbilical cord. Unless you're willing to cut the umbilical cord, you're always doing a half-hearted job on two things. So if you’re starting a company, you're working in the evenings. You suck at work because you're not putting all your efforts there and you suck at the thing you're trying to do because you're not putting all your effort there. So to me, if it's worth doing is worth giving every iota of your brain cycle to it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:32] What if you have a family that you have to support and you can't quit your job? I mean responsibly, you shouldn't quit your job while you're working on an idea that's not validated, right?

Naveen Jain: [00:08:40] And that is really the risk tolerance. So for example, we didn't have money, we had saved enough money just for about a year and that's the savings we had. I was willing to risk half of that to roll into the company, invest in this company and thought, what if I could now in six months have enough savings to last for six months? Can I actually go and do something and find it will work or not work? And if in six months, if it doesn't work and there is no traction, I'm going to go out and get another job.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:11] Yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:09:11] And that was a thing to me. It's not like you're not going to get a job again. Even if you quit your job and you try something, you in fact become more valuable, even to the same company that you quit because now you have experienced that you would have never had. In fact, more often than not, you get a better salary than you have stayed there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:30] Because you get to renegotiate when you come back here. So you're risk tolerant. What about your wife? Is she cool with all this or is she like, "Wait a minute."

Naveen Jain: [00:09:39] That was not a great conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:43] "So here's what I'm going to do. We have enough savings for a year. I'm going to quit my job, take half of that and throw it into this company, and then we keep our fingers crossed for six months."

Naveen Jain: [00:09:50] Yeah. So that conversation did not go well as you can possibly imagine, right? There's some convincing to be done there. It was more like a conversation you and Jen would be having. "I am pregnant. What do you mean you're going to quit your job?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:02] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So she was pregnant at the time?

Naveen Jain: [00:10:06] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:06] Oh, she must've wanted to throw you out the window.

Naveen Jain: [00:10:09] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:09] Yeah. Oh my God.

Naveen Jain: [00:10:10] Irresponsible.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:12] Completely. Wow. Wow. Well, she must be happy for you now.

Naveen Jain: [00:10:15] Yeah. I think you know things ended well really.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:18] Yeah. Now you can point to the ending and go see, "I knew it all along."

Naveen Jain: [00:10:21] Exactly. And that's actually how the history gets written. I knew all along we’re going to be successful. She knew it all along. She believed in me. No, I'm saying nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:33] Yeah. Right. She's like, you're so lucky you didn't lose all our money. Yeah. So here's a tacky question, but I'm so curious and a lot of my listeners are always curious. So you grew up relatively poor. In fact, you know what, let's, let's start there. Tell me about your childhood in India before I get into anything else. Because I think a lot of people, they look at immigrants now and they go, "Oh, well, they're either looking for this or they have an advantage or they have a disadvantage." There's all these sorts of stories we tell, but it's almost rare to hear about someone's childhood. We hear about those stories as soon as they get here.

Naveen Jain: [00:11:09] It's very interesting. Almost every immigrant who came early. I mean they literally have very similar stories. I mean, sure, my story is my story, but the fact is all of us are like a Slumdog millionaire. We all come here with almost nothing. And we know we come from the countries where there is not a lot of it. And my story is really about growing up with not a lot of food to eat, not having a place to stay.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:36] So your family was homeless or something like that?

Naveen Jain: [00:11:39] Not really quite homeless. But the fundamental thing was that it was like we didn't have to be poor. So it was a decision that my dad made that caused us to be poor.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:51] What do you mean?

Naveen Jain: [00:11:52] So my dad had a job and he was a supervisor for construction for the government. And his job was to build the buildings for the government. And India is extremely corrupt country. And the way they do that is they'll tell the contractor, "Hey, you don't have to use the cement. Just put half sand and half cement. A building is going to fall apart in the future, but so be it. The money that you see, you give me that piece of that, I'm going to take my portion, give it to my boss. My boss takes his portion, gives it to his boss." And all the way to the top of the food chain, everybody gets paid, so everybody is happy. Now, what really happens is that the government realizes that everybody is going to take the bribe anyway, so why should we pay them a lot of money? So they pay them a tiny bit of salary, thinking it goes to bribe. My dad decided that he wants to be an honest man. And that is really where it started. When he decided to be an honest man, obviously we didn't have much money. And it turns out that lack of money is rarely the issue because we eat way too much. We don't have to eat as much as we usually do, so not having food actually -- I do not recall -- that was ever the issue. What really starts happening was every six, nine months, my dad's boss would call the contractor and say, "Hey, I'm not seeing any money coming in here. Is he keeping all of it? What's going on?" And he said, "No, no, no. You know what he's asking me to do?" "What?" "He's asking me to build a building to stack. He's telling to put the dumb cement and build a building and I'm thinking if I had known, I'm going to be that kind of a person, I would have never been into the contract. I am losing my shirt." In government, you never get fired. You get transferred. So every six to nine months they transfer one place to another place. Ultimately, every place we went until we went to the most remote villages where there was absolutely no building to be built. Now, he's not taking anybody's bribe away. So they didn't really care what she was doing. All they care was, he didn't take someone else's money away. So now we ended in the most remote areas of the country where there are just no schools, there are no tables, chairs. You sit on the floor and some elderly gentlemen get a pity on and start teaching you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:06] Oh my God.

Naveen Jain: [00:14:07] Despite all of that, my sister went on to become a post doctorate in applied mathematics. My brother has a PhD in statistics and PhD in computer science. Now, I'm the least educated person in my family who ends up just getting an engineering degree and an MBA. And then I came to this country with absolutely nothing. We had five dollars in my pocket that we saved. I was working for three-dollars-an-hour jobs.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:33] What was your first job when you got here?

Naveen Jain: [00:14:34] I was actually working as what I called them an intern, but basically it was slave labor. We were getting paid $500 a month.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:42] Where?

Naveen Jain: [00:14:43] In New Jersey.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:44] Oh, okay. Like doing what?

Naveen Jain: [00:14:46] So here's very interesting. I got this, fortunately, because they went to the college campus. And this story has not been shared. I'm going to share. This is very interesting. So I'm finishing my MBA and there's a company called Burroughs, which became ultimately Unisys. They came to the college campus to recruit for people. Obviously, they're looking for computer people. There's no reason for me to apply. I'm a guy who is from industrial engineering, no computer background, and I'm doing now personnel management and labor relations. Nothing to do with this thing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:23] It sounds like you're completely unqualified for the job.

Naveen Jain: [00:15:26] Yes, so I don't apply for the thing. And I'm having lunch with a bunch of buddies. When they do these things they make you take the SAT, like aptitude test. One of my buddies sitting next to me said, "You know, this is the one of the hardest things. This company came from America. Their attitude test is the hardest I've ever done." And I'm like, "Dude, how hard can it be?" And he said, "Have you done that?" And I said, "No, not really." He said, "Then, you don't have no right to tell me it's not hard." And I'm thinking, "This is just stupid. I'm going to go do the damn thing." So I go there and I take the test and I aced it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:58] So you took the test just to piss off your friend?

Naveen Jain: [00:15:59] Just to piss off. Now I got a call next morning and it said, "We want to talk to you about being a computer programmer." "What are you talking about? What is this computer thing?" They said, "We looked at your scores and you got a perfect score. You have to be a computer science person." And I said, "I don't even know what a computer is." And now this guy thinks I'm just not messing with him. He said, "Do you know the difference between a bit and a byte?" I said, "Of course, I do. Small and big." He said, "There you have it." That gentleman is how I came into this country.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:30] Oh my God.

Naveen Jain: [00:16:31] So now I came to this country and they want to teach me to be a computer programmer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:35] So they brought you over?

Naveen Jain: [00:16:36] Oh, yeah. And that's why they pay me 500 bucks.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:39] Oh, okay. So they go to India and they're like, "We're going to teach you how to be an intern." And then they go, "Look, these guys will work for $500 a month.

Naveen Jain: [00:16:46] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:47] And then they schlep you over here.

Naveen Jain: [00:16:48] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:49] Wow.

Naveen Jain: [00:16:50] Yeah. So I had come here making $500 a month and I'm supposed to be a computer programmer. If you're a brown guy, you're damn good at computers. I don't care what anybody says. They just automatically assume you're a brown guy. You're good on the computer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:02] Right. But they got to give you that fake name for when you answer the phone. Like, you can't say you're Naveen. You got to be like Tom. You ever call a tech support? And he's like, "Hello, this is Tom." And you're like, "No, your name is not Tom, dude."

Naveen Jain: [00:17:13] Especially when I call. It's like, "My name is John." "No, sir."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:18] Yeah, no, I mean look, if your accent was stronger back then for sure we're pulling off John. All right.

Naveen Jain: [00:17:25] But interesting thing, I have always been Naveen, so yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:28] That's perfect. That's so funny. So okay, you started working here and you grew up, I assume with very little, if you're moving around so much and you said you even had almost a lack of food sometimes. What was the first thing you got that you bought when you started making real money, you know, when you started selling your companies? Because I'm thinking if I grew up and I didn't even have food to eat every meal -- what kind of thing did you dream of back in India that you never had, that you finally --

Naveen Jain: [00:17:55] You know, it's very interesting. When you don't have something, you have so many dreams about, once you make the money, I'm going to have a Rolex, I'm going to go buy this, or I'm going to go do that. It turns out all of the stuff just goes out the window. When you actually have it, you always ask something like, why?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:16] You don't care anymore.

Naveen Jain: [00:18:17] Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. I drove my beat up Lexus truck and you know, you could argue I could have bought anything in my life that I wanted. I didn't need a watch because I don't need to wear a watch. I just don't wear a watch. So my point is, it just suddenly became unimportant. I mean that's the same reason -- it's not that I can't have a private plane. I just don't feel the need to have a private plane.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:42] Yeah, it's a waste. It's a good way to go broke.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:44] And my point is sort of a lot of the times you do all the things that people want because they don't have it, once you believe to have them, you actually really want them. These ideas of what I will do when I have money are simply because you don't have it. Because once you have it you start thinking about what can I do with this that is more meaningful. And I think everyone goes through that and when that change happens is the happiest moment because as long as you are chasing something, you're always stressed, you're always trying to prove something. And the day you actually stop chasing, the day you become humble, the day you don't have to tell someone, you know what I drive is the day you actually become successful.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:30] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:34] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Naveen Jain. We'll be right back after this.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:22:02] Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode so you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from Naveen Jain. That link is in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. Now, back to our show with Naveen Jain.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:30] Was there something you wanted as a kid that you later decided you don't care about? I mean, I assume at some point you were like, "Look, I want a pair of basketball shoes, or like a boat."

Naveen Jain: [00:22:38] Honestly, I just never went through that phase and it was one of those type of things that I got what I enjoyed at that minute. So not because, "Oh my God, this is my childhood dream of having it. So now that I can, I'm going to have it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:52] That's good. So you never really had a lot of materialistic -- ?

Naveen Jain: [00:22:54] No, don't get me wrong. I don't want people to think that I don't enjoy materialistic.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:58] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [00:22:59] But it's never because that was how I wanted it to be. Today, I live in a decent house, I drive a good car. I mean when none of the stuff -- but to me because I just enjoy them, not because I wanted them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:09] Interesting. Okay, so it's more optional. Do you think that growing up, moving around a lot, not having a lot of material things actually increased your capacity for risk tolerance and business?

Naveen Jain: [00:23:19] You know, it goes both ways. When people don't have much they somehow start to believe the money is the only thing that matters and they chase that until they die. Or for others, it becomes a thing -- he said, "Look, what is the worst thing that can happen? This business is going to go broke. I'm not going to have food. I've been there, done that." So literally, you can use that. It's just your mindset of how you start thinking about that. And to me the difference between people who are successful and the people who actually are not successful is how they think. It is not what they do. It is how they think. And I really hope that people realize that. Even the books have been written about seven habits of successful people and I really believe that is a misnomer. You never want to follow the habits of successful people. You want to follow their thought process. So, an example that I always give, Tony Robbins takes ice bath every morning. You can take the ice bath three times a day. You're not going to become Tony Robbins thinking like Tony Robbins not behaving like one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:29] Yeah. Okay, I can see that. And of course I mean mindset versus just blindly following habits is a common theme on the show? You grew up with a lot of scarcity though, and I know that in Moonshots you mentioned that scarcity. Moonshots, the book which we'll link in the show notes. You mentioned that scarcity causes war, causes disease, and we're going to need more of everything soon. And one interesting point that you made was that sustainability is unsustainable. We're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. We actually need more of what we need, not merely to use less or recycle, which is kind of depressing. I've been recycling my whole life. What do you mean by this? Or we just totally screwed. I mean it seems like if we can't recycle our way out of this problem, what's going on?

Naveen Jain: [00:25:09] I'm not even remotely suggesting that we should waste or we should not recycle.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:14] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [00:25:14] What I'm suggesting is that we have to think about why do we even believe that it just scares you, so this is the scarcity mindset, right? So why do we believe this is somehow finite amount of resources that exist? That is because our imagination is limited. So we believe the value of the land exists because they only finite amount of land without ever realizing that our planet earth is nothing but a tiny dot in our solar system. Our solar system is not very unique. It's a tiny dot in our galaxy. Our galaxy is nothing very unique. It's a tiny dot in our universe, and our universe, maybe is a tiny dot in this multiverse. We don't know that. The point really is that scarcity happens because somehow we believe this is the only planet that we can live on.

Naveen Jain: [00:26:08] And if we thought to dig into that and say, "What if we could live on the moon? What if you could live on Mars? What if you can live on Titan? What if you could live on Europa? Where is the scarcity? People say, "Well, the energy is scarce because we only have this finite amount of this fossil fuel." Now, we all talk about renewable energy. Every 90 minutes, there is more solar energy falls on planet earth than we use in the whole year. Simply a matter of conversion. And as you can see, the cost is coming down to be at par in most the distributor level. But the fact is this is no different than just a couple of hundred years ago. The most scarce element on planet earth was aluminum.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:52] Aluminum. That's funny.

Naveen Jain: [00:26:53] In fact, it was so scarce that on the tip of the Washington monument, it is made of aluminum. We wanted the British to know we had arrived. Look what we can do. In fact, when Napoleon hosted the King of Siam, he wanted to show how rich he is. He fed all his generals in the golden platter, all his troops in the silver platter, but for King of Siam, nothing else will do other than the aluminum platter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:23] Wow.

Naveen Jain: [00:27:23] And the reason was because we believed the aluminum is so hard. And the reason it was hard, even though there was so much of it, it was always in the form of bauxite and extracting aluminum from bauxite was very, very hard until the technological electrolysis came about. And it became so cheap, we threw it away. Now, what is electrolysis of that solar energy?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:49] Right, so what's the electrolysis, what's the bauxite conversion of solar power?

Naveen Jain: [00:27:53] Exactly. And then when that happens, we're going to have unlimited energy. And the beauty of the thing is once something becomes abundant, it becomes democratized and it becomes a demonetize. And suddenly we don't fight over it. And I think a lot of people have this misconception that human beings are just greedy. It doesn't matter how much we have, we want more, and we're going to fight over it. It turns out we actually humans, our generosity is built into our DNA. We all realize that the part of evolution. When our tribe died, we died. We want to take care of each other. That's the only way you could survive.

Naveen Jain: [00:28:33] Now, here's the interesting part. We all could sit in the stadium behind us. You see that Levi's Stadium, 70,000 of us could sit there, enjoying a game, and we never slap the guy next to us and say, "Hey, you're breathing my air. It's my oxygen." Why is that? Because we inherently believe air is abundant. Oxygen is abundant. It's free. Everybody has it and we don't value it. Now, what energy was the next air? What if food became the next air? What if land became the next air? What if the freshwater became the next air? And now I can go and say how do we get there. It's not just about solar energy. What if you can start to get the helium-3. A small quantity of helium-3 which you can get on the moon. You can get them on any of the asteroids. Simply the isotope of helium that is small quantity could power this planet for generations using fusion energy. And most people are saying, "There is a fusion energy? Is he that dumb not to know that there is no reactors right now?" No, I'm not, but the fact is helium-3 is not there either. It's going to take us five to 10 years to get the helium-3. Just it's going to take that long to get the fusion reactor going. When somebody has built a fusion reactor, what are they going to say, "Does someone have a helium-3?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:57] Right. "Oh shoot, call Naveen. We need more helium-3. We built the electrolysis. We don't have any bauxite."

Naveen Jain: [00:30:04] So now you want to be where the soccer ball is going to be, not where the soccer ball is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:09] Right. I think we use a hockey analogy.

Naveen Jain: [00:30:12] The puck. I know I was going to say puck, but I didn't say puck. I think people don't get that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:15] Yeah. Yeah. It depends on the audience, right? European audience, it's the football. The American audience, it's the puck. You mentioned in Moonshots that moonshots entrepreneurs are our greatest resource, those taking a moonshot. Tell us what a moonshot even is in your opinion.

Naveen Jain: [00:30:32] So to me, what I really meant is the biggest or I would say the most scarce resource on planet earth really is dreamers. The dreamers are the ones we just don't have enough off. Now to answer your question, to me, a moonshot is an audacious goal, something so audacious that people believe on the surface. It is impossible. And most people, once they believe something is impossible, it becomes impossible for them and no one else. Then you take yourself out of solving that problem. So the more people who believe it's impossible, now you have less and less competition to do that. As a matter of fact, one of the things I learned is it's easier to solve a big massive audacious problem than to solve a smaller problem.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:24] Why is that? What do you mean by that?

Naveen Jain: [00:31:26] So if you go and say, "I'm going to build an app that's going to help me find a roommate." People say, "Oh, great idea, Jordan, go enjoy." Now if you tell someone, "Hey, I'm going to go out and make illness optional." People say, "What do you mean by that?" "Imagine living in a world where chronic disease is simply a matter of choice, not a matter of bad luck."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:50] Who would choose to get a disease?

Naveen Jain: [00:31:51] Right, who would choose to get a disease? Everyone sees being healthy is a choice. You heard that?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:58] Being healthy as a choice. Sure.

Naveen Jain: [00:31:59] So what do they really mean? Being sick is a choice. So my point is we make those decisions every day. Whether it makes you healthy or sick. I'm going to come back in how you make the choices.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:09] Yeah. Because a lot of people get sick, it's not their choice.

Naveen Jain: [00:32:12] Aha, so that's why I said when you say disease, I mean the chronic diseases. I don't mean the infectious diseases.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:20] Okay.

Naveen Jain: [00:32:20] You and I are going to make a decision to get a flu.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:22] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [00:32:22] But you rarely come home and say, "You know what, Jen, last night I was out with the boys. I think I might've caught diabetes." Or you say, "I think I might've caught obesity. Have you noticed that?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:32:34] I have been gaining a little weight.

Naveen Jain: [00:32:36] Yeah but my point you don't catch obesity. You don't catch diabetes. You don't go out and catch depression. You don't go out and catch anxiety. You don't go out and catch autoimmune diseases. These are the chronic diseases that happen for what a long period of time. And they all happened because of a certain lifestyle. So ideally, if we know what is causing them and what if you know what to do about it and you have actionable things you could do. So let's assume, you're gaining weight.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:07] Yeah, gaining weight. We don't have to assume much. We can just observe.

Naveen Jain: [00:33:10] Yeah, so that observation in my diagnostics now. so we have a diagnostic tool called eyes and I just diagnosed you that you might be --

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:20] You're heading towards -- here's you, here's obesity, you're moving in that direction.

Naveen Jain: [00:33:26] So I'm almost like a doctor now.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:27] Dr. Naveen.

Naveen Jain: [00:33:29] But the point is now, let's assume somehow I could tell you this is what you need to do to stop gaining weight and reduce the weight. You need to stop eating spinach, you need to stop eating kale, you need to stop eating apple.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:46] No problem.

Naveen Jain: [00:33:47] But here's the thing, now, once you know what needs to be done, and let's assume scientifically, we can show you why you need to be doing that, and you continue to say, "No, I'm going to do that. I'm going to keep eating them." That's a choice.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:02] That's a choice. Got it.

Naveen Jain: [00:34:03] So once you know what is causing it, you know what action you need to take, and you decide not to take them. That's what I mean by it's a choice.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:12] Got it. Okay. So you're still attributing responsibility to people for their bad choices.

Naveen Jain: [00:34:16] That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:17] I can get behind that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, perfect.

Naveen Jain: [00:34:19] So, let me continue the part. So my point is when you go out and see that's what you want to do. Amazing things happen. The world's best and the brightest one to help you solve that problem because that problem is worth solving you. That is the reason someone like us, we were not the healthcare experts. The top person in artificial intelligence, the head of Watson Associates, that problem you mentioned about making it less optional. I want to be part of that. I don't need to make the money that I'm making at IBM. I'm going to come and help you solve the problem. The best and the brightest people who understand the human biology, they want to work on solving the problem. And that's literally what happens. We ended up finding technologically at Los Alamos National Lab. We ended up finding the person who was working on a biodefense project. To understand its bad afterward, to get hold of something, how would we know what's making us sick? He said, "I know exactly what makes people sick. I can get you the technology. I can tell you exactly what needs to be done." The best and the brightest came together because we had that moonshot. And what I mean by that is the best and the brightest are not going to come and say, "I think I'm going to help you like this." And that's what I mean is that it suddenly becomes amazing and easier to solve because the minds want to work on the most audacious problems.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:41] That's a good point. And it goes to your point also in Moonshots about extreme nearsightedness. Tell us about that because I feel like extreme nearsightedness is something that -- you see this when you watch the news. It goes, "Pretty soon you're going to be able to do this," and you go, "Wait a minute. Who cares about being able to check my email on the phone. Like what about being able to send data on all these other things on the phone?" In fact, I think data on cell phones is an example that you actually gave in the book, now that I think about it. Tell us about this nearsightedness problem.

Naveen Jain: [00:36:08] It's very interesting that way back when we used to have -- you probably want to remember, Jordan -- flip phones, the Motorola.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:17] I'm 39 man, you know, I know about flip phones. Larry King still has one.

Naveen Jain: [00:36:21] These StarTAC phones, you flip them and that was a fancy phone. Now, at that time, this was now in late '90s and year 2000, this is seven years before Steve Jobs announced iPhone. I am on record and I'm interviewing at Washington Post with a lady named Leslie Walker. Leslie says, "What do you think you're doing that is exciting?" And I said, "Imagine one day, we are going to be able to get our email on that phone. Our contact on the phone, the weather, and the star code. And imagine when you drive by the Starbucks, you'd get a Starbucks coupon and someday we're going to use our phone to make a payment instead of using a credit card." And she looks at me and says, "Not in our lifetime." And I called her seven years later and I said, "Leslie, I hope you're still alive. It's happening." The interesting thing is it's not that I had some crystal ball.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:20] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [00:37:20] Like, "Oh my God, I had this vision one day in the night when I woke up in the morning and God showed me this stuff that is going to come out." No. To me, it was simply a way of thinking. So in those days, anything that I said was really not a surprise. Everyone used to carry this thing called PalmPilot.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:38] Oh, yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:37:38] So PalmPilot was a device. You could get your email and a calendar. It was a nice big device. The people used to carry the pagers. The pagers are how we you communicate. And they had the flip phone. And everybody kept thinking the phone is the phone. How are you going to get the email in the tiny screen? I was thinking, why can't you put the phone on the PalmPilot.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:58] Right, yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:37:59] So it wasn't like a lot of imagination other than simply thinking if they can come together, people think PalmPilot needs to become a phone. I'm thinking, why can't put the phone in the PalmPilot and you're done. And that's literally what Steve Jobs ended up doing.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:17] You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Naveen Jain. We'll be right back.

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:06] In order to predict the future like that though -- and you say this yourself in Moonshots, entrepreneurs have to have their feet in multiple technologies. So for example, self-driving cars. Tell us about this. This is an interesting example because you're right, self-driving cars have all different technology that was not designed for self- driving cars and they all sort of come together for this thing that's going to change the whole world.

Naveen Jain: [00:40:30] So it's very interesting that not just the technology, especially the artificial intelligence, it is always this mystical thing. But once it actually becomes a reality, we all look at anything down. People talk about robots in the house and people, "I don't want the robots in my house." You remind them what a dishwasher is. Dishwasher is a robot that's in your house to clean your dishes, but people don't think it's a robot. People think self-driving cars, including our brilliant president said, "I will never get into the car." "Mr. President, the plane that you fly in is also an autonomous flying vehicle." So just in case you're wondering, you do use that right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:14] Yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:41:14] But it's no longer people think of -- you know, self-driving car but no longer after 737 you want to talk about that -- but the fact is the planes have been self-flying for the longest time, like autopilot. Autopilot has been on the planes for the longest time. And what's interesting, we fly every single day. So the interesting thing is that technology for self-driving, as you mentioned, has been coming along. You remember even five years ago, we started to see the brakes, basically assisted brakes. You could start to see the lane change. Car would beep, beep, beep when you're trying to change the lane. When you get too close to a car, it starts to beep. All these are self-driving features that have been coming along and now we’re starting to put all of them together and suddenly you say, "Oh, we got to start driving." But interesting thing about that is the implication of a single technology is not just what you see primarily, what are the secondary and tertiary implications of the technology.

Naveen Jain: [00:42:14] So for example, self-driving car, it's pretty obvious how it's going to disrupt the automotive industry. That idea of owning a car probably will go away, but that is just one industry. That's really the implication. What you don't realize is if the cars are constantly communicating with each other now more cars can drive much closer to each other.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:35] Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:35] That means you don't need to build as many roads. So what happens to the construction companies? Now you say, oh, now if I need a car and it can come to me when I need it, I don't need to have a parking lot right inside my building. So what if all the parking lots in the most expensive real estate in Manhattan can become affordable housing and cars can be anywhere.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:56] Nothing in Manhattan is going to be affordable. But I see where you're going with this.

Naveen Jain: [00:42:59] But my point is, all the stuff, real estate suddenly frees up all the parking lots. Now, there can be affordable housing, but now if you start to say how the word shows reality and comes to come together, that means your car becomes your office, your home becomes your office. Do you really need to be even driving to the office? Do you really have to live in close to the office anymore? What if the office can be created in a virtual room? And it starts to suddenly start to change everything, right? So there are a couple of concepts here that I just wanted to bring up and I really think that in terms of practical nature of how people think about it. I want to give you some examples because I know your audience and they would just love it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:40] So part of it is how do you take a problem that is so complex that on the surface like a moonshot seems very difficult and how do you think about solving it? So I'm going to give two examples. So let's assume people say, "Are you crazy enough to think you can live on the moon? It is impossible." And you say, "Wow." So instead of saying it is impossible, what if you were to rephrase and say, "What technologies need to be developed for us to be able to live on the moon?" Now you're in the solution just by asking that question and you say, "Okay, the first thing is how are humans going to live on the moon? Don't you know there is a tremendous amount of radiation? Is this good?" Now, what if we know that there are tremendous amounts of bacterial species that are growing in radioactive nuclear waste? What does it mean? That means nature has figured out how to protect its DNA from very high radiation and use the radiation as a source of energy. Now we can pick the genes from those bacteria, modify ourselves using CRISPR in vivo and suddenly we become radiation resistant. And people say, "The CRISPR is not quite ready yet." And us living on the moon either yet, but the fact that you don't have to solve the problem, that problem is getting solved whether it takes another three years or five years, we are going to get the CRISPR to be able to modify our human genes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:57] So we ended up with a subspecies of human that thrives in radioactive environments.

Naveen Jain: [00:45:02] Or at least can live in the radioactive environment, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:06] Right.

Naveen Jain: [00:45:06] Now, the second part people say, fine, you can do that, "But how are you going to grow the food on the moon?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:11] Maybe you don't need it if you're using radiation for energy.

Naveen Jain: [00:45:13] Aha, so now you tell me, but that is not the question. The question you need to be asking is why do we need food? Why do we eat food? And once you ask that question, you say, "Okay, we need food for two reasons. We need energy and we need nutrition." Energy, we can get through photosynthesis, through radiation. But what about the nutrients? So nutrition, what kind of nutrition? Maybe you need hydrogen, maybe you need oxygen. Maybe you need nitrogen. But what if we can find water on the moon? We know there's plenty of it. That means now you've got hydrogen and you got oxygen, and the thing that's left over is nitrogen. Now we don't know if there is nitrogen on the moon or not. So either we're going to find the nitrogen or living on the moon is simply about how do we take enough nitrogen from Earth to the moon? And now we can live on them. And that problem is a solvable problem. So thing that seem so insurmountable, just by asking different questions, you're able to break it down and you're able to solve that problem. So that's a concept I really think you can apply to almost every single complex problem that you're looking at.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:15] This is fascinating. So what are some of the more exciting developments you think that are coming in like the next 10 to 20 years that you think are at near certainty? As much as you, as much as one can?

Naveen Jain: [00:46:24] Look, so first of all there are several things and I want to give, I'm going to answer your question on, just do one more concept that I really think is important for any entrepreneur. Most entrepreneurs when they start, they want to solve the problem and it's really interesting for them to know are they solving the symptom of the problem or the solving the root cause of the problem. And I can give you multiple examples where it applies, but let me take one example of that thing and then I can tell you how to think about it. So first, let's assume, you know, it is not assumption. We all know there are many parts of the world where the lack of fresh water is one of the biggest problems. And you see I being a person who cares and is a big problem, I'm going to go figure out how to get more freshwater. Can we build the nanotechnology to be able to desalinize a water? How do we get this fresh water to these people? And you start to solve the problem. But if you're smart you will ask the question, why is there shortage of freshwater? And the answer would have been or because we use majority of the freshwater for agriculture and you say, ah, so all I have to do is come up with the way of doing agriculture like aquaponic, aeroponic, hydroponic. And if you can do that or even use lightly salted water, suddenly I can now free up all the freshwater for humans. And you think really good until you ask the question. Wait a second, why do we have all this agriculture? And suddenly you realize majority of the agriculture is for feeding the cattles.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:52] Yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:47:53] Right. And you say, "Oh, that's it." Now, what if we can get people to eat what they want, the beef, and all they want to eat is muscle tissues. Can we do exactly what nature does? Take a stem cell instead of going eyes and ears. You don't have to eat them anyway, just only grow the muscle tissues and now suddenly you realize the fresh water problem, really the synthetic biology problem that lies here. And that's really, if you don't do that, you end up solving symptoms. Somebody comes behind you, solves the problem and you basically have no business left.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:22] Right.

Naveen Jain: [00:48:23] And that applies by the way, in almost everything. This is just one example. So for example, there was somebody who came to me and say, "Hey, I'm really passionate about orphanage and I want to go build more orphanages." And I say, "That problem if you keep doing it, you're not solving it." You need to start thinking about why do these people become orphans. Then if you're not solving it, you constantly are getting the new feed. And you can never solve that. You got to solve the root cause. The best story I remember from my childhood is there was this man in Ganges River, and he's frantically seeing these bodies coming down and he's going to be picking them up and trying to save them. And there's another gentleman passes by and he sees him do that and he just keeps walking and the guy said, "Can't you see I'm drowning myself trying to save these people’s body's coming down? Can't you just sit down and help me?" And he said, I'm going to go up there and find out where these bodies are coming from because if not, two of us are going to be drowning here."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:18] Yeah. Right. So solving the problem instead of the symptom of the problem. Yeah, and I think that looking at problems by identifying the root causes is obviously a more efficient way to do it. It does require, again, back to your earlier point to have your feet in multiple technologies so that you can find a real solution to this.

Naveen Jain: [00:49:34] So you ask me the question that I didn't quite answer for in terms of what are the things that I see that are going to happen in the next decade that fundamentally that is near certain in some someone's mind and other people don't think this is absolutely crazy idea.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:49] Sure, like self-driving cars we know that --

Naveen Jain: [00:49:51] That's easy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:51] That's an easy one.

Naveen Jain: [00:49:53] But here's a thing, think about it in the next 10 years is going to fundamentally change the way we live our lives. I don't think there's ever been a time in the human history where we are going to see more change in the next 10 years than we saw in the last 500 years. That exponential technology used to come one at a time. This is the first time when we're seeing the convergence of these technologies that are coming together, that fundamentally changes everything. So it's not just about the autonomous car. What do you really mean to be in seeing the reality? So reality people used to say, "I'll believe it when I see it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:32] Right.

Naveen Jain: [00:50:33] What you see is really not real. What you see is your perception of what is there. So for example, if I were to tell you there is a Taylor Swift song playing here, you're going to say, "Naveen, you have distorted sense of reality because -- "

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:50] Because I can't hear it.

Naveen Jain: [00:50:52] I can hear it. Now, if you put a short-wave radio here or FM radio here and you hear it, how is it suddenly coming here? It has always been here except our auditory cortex cannot hear that wavelength.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:04] Right, good point. Yeah, thankfully.

Naveen Jain: [00:51:06] Thankfully, but my point is same thing also happens to what you look at. We don't see the infrared. We don't see a lot of the wavelength. All those things, what if you start to see. So point is what is the reality is simply our perception. If someone needed colorblind and "I'm telling you this red." He said, "No, that is black." How do you argue that what I'm seeing is real and you're seeing is not real?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:30] Right. We did a whole show about perception with a Beau Lotto a couple of weeks ago.

Naveen Jain: [00:51:34] So my point, I'm going to say is that idea of what is real will fundamentally change as we start to get into mixed reality. The mixed reality fundamentally changes what is real and what is not real.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:46] Mixed reality being like augmented reality type of --

Naveen Jain: [00:51:50] Augmented reality and mixed reality are essentially a virtual object in the real world. And as you start to change even what human beings can perceive. So let's assume I'm able to modify my eyes to be able to see a bigger wavelength of light. I'm able to modify my auditory cortex to hear a larger way of sound from ultrasound to the short waves to everything. Now I'll be more conscious at that point. Are we as humans have distorted sense of reality now that you can see a lot more? And that to me is really the interesting thing. When people used to say Steve Jobs had a distorted sense of reality, did he actually have a clear sense of reality? We just couldn't see it, right? So my point is, we have a distorted sense of reality, not he. And the point I'm trying to make is that everything that we think offered the idea of that, we used to go somewhere to get on a plane that would run like a fast car and then it takes off. People often say humans just don't put a jetpack on your backyard and just leave. And even there, some days are going to change. People are going to say, "You mean you just de-atomize yourself and appear and hit somewhere else?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:01] Do you think that's on the horizon? Being able to de-atomize ourselves and then build a replica a thousand miles away.

Naveen Jain: [00:53:06] It's very interesting. The life is already being transmitted at the speed of light. And let me explain what I mean. It is a simple life. Today, if you can sequence a bacteria or the virus and you can send that sequence on the other end and you can synthesize that on the other side, have you just transmitted life on the other side?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:29] I don't know which one is that leads all these philosophical questions, right?

Naveen Jain: [00:53:32] No, no, no, my point is a transmitted bacteria electronically from one side to the other side.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:36] Is it possible? I don't even know.

Naveen Jain: [00:53:38] You did it today. You can synthesize. You can basically sequence on one side and synthesize on that side. You can be in this, synthesize it, right? So you can essentially take the DNA here, synthesize it here. That means I can take bacteria from here to the moon and you can print the bacteria on the moon. You just transfer the bacteria from here to there. Now, imagine the whole idea, the first thing that was ever sequence was actually the sperm with a single cell. So they sequence the sperm. Now actually, if you take that idea and you can transfer the sequence of that and someone prints it and has a baby, the idea of "funny I was not in town doesn't even matter anymore." My point is the idea of start thinking about what happens when you start to take these things. People used to say you can't be on two places at the same time. Why is that? What if we can be on 10 places with 10G. It's constantly being synchronized and these are the holographic images of Jordan in 10 places and Jordan sitting here is experiencing every one of them because it's constantly being synchronized. The brain is actually experiencing these. There's no difference that you are being or you're not there because your brain doesn't know the difference.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:52] Oh my gosh. So the social media of 20 years from now is being in those same places at the same time. And you think kids aren't paying attention in class now. Wait until they're in three different locations.

Naveen Jain: [00:55:05] But today what is it that makes you feel that you are actually experiencing it? You don't experience through your eyes, you don't experience through your ear. You experience it through your brain.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:15] Right, my brain creates it.

Naveen Jain: [00:55:16] Your brain creates it. Now the brain is being synchronized with your audio cortex, with your visual cortex. What if those cortex are sitting somewhere else and your brain is still synchronizing. It doesn't know what input it's getting.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:29] Right. That's a good point. So basically I'm a software as a service.

Naveen Jain: [00:55:33] So you can now be in multiple places experiencing the same thing. Your brain is experience as if it is happening and that by the way is starting to happen today in the virtual reality. Brain does not know the difference. And most people -- I think probably some of the people who may not have experienced it -- with the game called Ledge. You step up on a small platform. That's just about a step, one and half step higher. Suddenly, you put in virtual reality, you're going up on the elevator, elevator starts to break, and you have to take a step off on the ledge and you're seeing 60-storey down. You know you are in a thing. And I've tried to kind of take a step. I'm trying to find the arc and I cannot see it. And your brain will not allow you to just say get off there. It's just simply a platform. Your brain thinks, you're going to die.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:24] Yeah.

Naveen Jain: [00:56:25] And people screamed. People panicked because they're trying to step thinking they can find the thing and they cannot touch it because of the one and a half step, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:32] Oh my God.

Naveen Jain: [00:56:33] And you cannot take that step. The brain just does not know the difference that what's happening. So my point is brain is such an easy thing to fool. So when we're starting to experience all these, that is going to fundamentally change. Now imagine all the things that can change. What it really mean to be together anymore, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:51] So I can simultaneously watch Netflix all day and hang out with my wife all day.

Naveen Jain: [00:56:56] Right. That's the only two things.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:58] Right. That's only two things. Yeah. The imagination runs wild now.

Naveen Jain: [00:57:01] There you are.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:02] Yeah. I'm just going to leave it at those two things. But yeah, you also mentioned in the book something that's a very sort of fascinating concept for me that I think is very useful, which is that curiosity beats IQ every time. What do we mean by this?

Naveen Jain: [00:57:18] What it really means by that is what is really important is having the intellectual curiosity to be thinking what the world can be, not what the world is. IQ is generally based on what you can see and what you can imagine today to be and curiosity is what allows you to start thinking about what the future can be. So the way I think about it is the day that you as a person stop being intellectually curious is the day you die. So only way to me being alive means you're constantly curious and you're constantly learning. The day you stop learning is the day you actually stop being curious. And if you're not learning, you're dead, you're zombie. As an entrepreneur, what I found most interesting is people's idea of the risk taking and these ideas of ups and downs. What if you actually anticipate this and accept it? So what I tell people is that life was an entrepreneur is like a heartbeat. It goes up and down. When it is smooth, you're already dead. You just don't know it. You never want a smooth heartbeat. You want that up and down. The interesting thing up and down is when you're actually down just you need to hunker down and know the next beat is up. Then you are on the top of the beat, never get too cocky. You know the winter is coming and you got to be ready for that. And that really to me is once you accept that, and the part of the thing that we're talking about intellectual curiosity is that we always as a teacher, as a parent -- what do we do? We want our children, you know, we say, I'll take you to the water, but I cannot make you drink. But what if our job is not that, what if our job is simpler than that? What if our job is to simply make them thirsty? If you can make them thirsty, they will not only find their own water, they will drink. And that curse is what is called intellectual curiosity.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:22] How do we develop that? How do we develop that in ourselves and in other people?

Naveen Jain: [00:59:26] So that is interestingly -- first of all, I can tell you that what we did, I used to do with our children, I was allowing them to imagine how different things can possibly be connected. So one of the things I used to do when the kids were young -- people would read the stories to our children -- what I used to do was different? I would sit down with them at night and say, "Take these three objects, a tree, a building, and a frog. Tell me a story that brings all three together."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:58] So you're having them create a story.

Naveen Jain: [00:59:59] Having them find these connections that nobody sees them. How do you connect that frog to the building, to the tree? You start to imagine what can possibly be and those connections allow you to start, be creative and imaginative.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:14] Interesting. So the more we create or force ourselves to create solutions, the more we develop our curiosity. Is that what you're saying?

Naveen Jain: [01:00:22] No, the more we develop creativity, the curiosity is wanting to know why. And the children are inherently curious. Do you remember? Do you have any kids?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:32] Not yet.

Naveen Jain: [01:00:33] Okay. So interestingly, when the kids, once you have, they get to do, it doesn't matter what you tell them, they say why? And you answer the why, then they will say why? And they are so curious. They want to know every why and what as we grew up? We actually shut their curiosity. Our education system shuts the curiosity down. In fact, it starts to mold them. Our current education system starts to mold them. There are no multiple right answers. Here is a problem and here are the four possible solution and if you think two of them are right wrong, only one of them is the right solution. And at work, what do we say? The multiple ways of skinning that cat, the multiple solution. And here's the interesting one, when I am sitting and taking my test and I said, "Hey Jordan, what do you think might be the answer to that problem?" They call that cheating.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:23] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [01:01:24] At work, what do we call that? Team player.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:25] Yeah, team player, collaboration.

Naveen Jain: [01:01:27] Collaboration, right.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:28] Exactly.

Naveen Jain: [01:01:28] My point is all of that has to fundamentally -- because we are taking the curiosity away. Intellectually curious person is the one who wants to learn about different subjects. So I can tell you what I do. Every couple of years, I go down into a different rat hole, so I can tell you a decade ago I was just into neuroscience. I probably must've read at least 30 books on neuroscience. I've probably met 20 neuroscientists. I wanted to know how human brain works. Then I got into genetics, then I go into nanotechnology. I'm just constantly wanting to know, and I know I spent two years just learning about cancer because I was just curious. How is it the cancer can go in the body and our immune system doesn't kill it? So I want to know the how, this we call homogeneous, then the more I realized it was actually cancer is an organism. That's heterogeneous. It's constantly morphing itself to keep itself up not seen from the immune system. And it would just not that I had anybody that was worried about cancer. I just was curious.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:29] And interesting thing is all these data things, all the things that I learned are simply the docs I collect and when I keep collecting these docs and I read them a lot. So I spend about three hours every day in the morning just going through research on every different topic and I keep collecting these docs. And some day when I'm thinking about a problem, but I read something, I say, "Oh, that was a missing piece. I need to solve that problem." So it literally allows you to see, when I'm reading a particular research, what does it really mean to what I'm doing right now?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:02] You mentioned the ability to shift perspective is better and more useful than just being smart. So how do we develop and work on the skill of shifting perspective?

Naveen Jain: [01:03:12] So part of it is the examples I gave asking different questions, right? So first of all, learning to be comfortable to be different. So most people feel if they are different, they feel outcast, they feel they're no longer part of the group. And to me, all of the innovation always happens or done by the people who are on the edges, in the bell curve. It's the middle of the part that's never done. They are always going to meet the middle of the curve. Here's the people on the boat. Edges are the one who end up innovating. So it's okay to be different. For me, it's very interesting that I don't look like most people in this country. I don't talk like most people in this country. I still have the strong accent.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:03] Yes, certainly do.

Naveen Jain: [01:04:05] And my point is I'm okay with that. I didn't go out and say, I need to hire a speech therapist to teach me how to talk like everyone. I think that's an advantage for me to be that different because for everyone else you could interview, you can almost pay 50 percent of who brain cycle, pay attention and you still can understand them. And my being having such a thick accent, if you're not giving me 99 percent of the brain cycle, you have no idea what I'm saying.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:35] There are plenty of people who decided early on to give you zero percent attention, I think after the accent because they went, "Look, it's too early for this." But I think the rest of us are well rewarded for that, but you're right. Yeah, good. Maybe I'll develop an accent. What do you think?

Naveen Jain: [01:04:48] The idea is to be different? It doesn't matter. I'm saying it's accent, whatever it is. In any corporate structure, if you're like everyone else, you're going to be in the bottom of the pyramid.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:59] Sure.

Naveen Jain: [01:04:59] It takes one person to be on the top. And what is the difference between that person in the top and everyone else is he's different. And the different doesn't have to be a thick accent. Different can be any number of ways that you're different.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:11] Sure, sure.

Naveen Jain: [01:05:12] All I'm saying embrace that differentiation.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:15] That goes to your point about experts never being the ones who disrupt. Experts and people who are well versed or I should say authorities on a certain subject, they're never the ones that cause disruption. Why? What's going on here?

Naveen Jain: [01:05:27] So once you are an expert, the best you can do is to make something incrementally better. So being an expert means having a foundational knowledge of that area. If you're a non-expert, you're able to actually challenge the foundation because you don't have that taken for granted because you're not an expert and that's where you get 10X or a 100X disruption. So if you are a novice or a non-expert, you are able to challenge the industry and able to make something 10 times better, not just 10 percent better.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:00] Why is that? What is it about disruption and moonshots?

Naveen Jain: [01:06:03] So one is because experts take the foundational knowledge for granted and they're able to incrementally make it better. Non-experts come in and completely change the foundation and they are able to rebuild that foundation that makes it 10X better. So I can give you two great examples of that. I started a company called Moon Express. Everyone believed that to go to the moon will cost a billion dollars, which is what everyone thought we'd go do. We thought we could go out and do this for 100 million dollars because of the technology and exponential curve. It turns out we were able to do it for 10 million dollars or under 10 million dollars because we re-taught that why do we need to build a build rocket? What if you only take a small rocket? The cost is only a couple of million dollars and put on top of that another rocket and lender that can go from there to the moon because once you got out the gravity, you don't need a big rocket anymore. And that mindset change got our cost of going to the moon that we are doing next year under 10 million dollars.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:58] Wow.

Naveen Jain: [01:06:58] Same thing happened in the healthcare. You know I started Viome.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:01] Did you say you're going to the moon next year, not you, but Moon Express is going to the moon. That's big news.

Naveen Jain: [01:07:07] But part of it is actually -- you probably have seen it -- that NASA just awarded nine companies is selected 2.6-billion-dollar contract.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:14] And Moon Express is in there.

Naveen Jain: [01:07:16] Yeah. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:17] Wow.

Naveen Jain: [01:07:17] So the point I was trying to make is that same thing we did in healthcare. I had no idea about healthcare. I had no background in science, I have no background in healthcare. I started Viome and fundamentally challenged the idea that there's a pill for every ill. That you have to understand that all diseases are literally have a same underlying cause. We believe the underlying cause is inflammation. But why inflammation is causing different for every person? So you can't have one drug and that's reason people give you one drug is the efficacy of those drugs is only 20 percent. That means 80 percent of the people are only harmed by their drug and 20 percent people who benefit are also harmed. And the reason is when they tried to find something that's common between the people. What happens if the lower level is different? So they keep going up and up, up onto the find something common. And the higher you go, the more damage it does.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:06] Right.

Naveen Jain: [01:08:07] And underlying cause is still not being solved. All they're doing is solving the symptom. So for example, you have an autoimmune disease. Nobody said, "Hey, let me figure out why your immune system is attacking your own self." They say, "Let's suppress the immune system?" "So if you suppress the immune system, don't you think I'm going to get other disease?" "Oh yeah, yeah, but don't you worry, we've got drug for those things." "But doc, what happens when you take drugs for those?" "Well, you're going to have a whole bunch of side effects, but we've got drugs for them, don't you worry." And by the time you get to my age, you're taking more pills than blueberries. And they got problem with that.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:39] Yeah, that sounds awful. And I think going --

Naveen Jain: [01:08:42] And the only reason we can solve that is because I didn't have a baggage. If I was an MD, by the time you graduate from MD, you're not taught about nutrition. You're not taught about anything. In fact, they don't even know microbiome. 20 years of work has gone into this. The idea that we are not a human being as homogeneous. In fact, 99 percent of all the genes expressed in our body are not our own. They actually come from 40 trillion organisms in our gut. Think about it for a second. 40 trillion starts up there, with all the humans on earth living inside each one of us. Think about that. And we have not paid attention to them. And that was a breakthrough for us.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:09:24] So that's what volume does, it researches this gut bacteria.

Naveen Jain: [01:09:27] That was the first part of it. We thought what if we can understand -- so the whole concept was, now we have technology to understand everything that's happening inside the human body. The only three types of genes that are expressed in the human body, your mitochondrial genes, but most people don't know what mitochondria is. It is actually inside the human cell, but it used to be in ancient bacteria. It has its own 13 genes and then there are genes we get from our mom and dad. They are called human genes. They express about 22,000 genes. Mitochondria is about a couple of dozen and the bacteria in our gut, the 40 trillion, they express 2 million genes. Now imagine we as humans, the DNA that we get from mom and dad, they have less genes that are expressed in the earthworm. If that doesn't give you inferiority complex, I don't know what else. But the only reason we are able to be such complex is because we outsource most of our functions to those 40 trillion organisms. They have 2 million genes. So now they have massive amount of gene pool, but when we destroy them, they're no longer actually doing the work that keeps us healthy. And that is the key to understanding that we are a walking, talking ecosystem.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:10:39] It's so impressive. There's so much going on in the gut. It seems a little scary that people who are working on this are not actually doctors. But what you're saying is that is better.

Naveen Jain: [01:10:49] That is better. So it's very interesting that you see that it is something as if we are inventing it, right?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:10:55] Right.

Naveen Jain: [01:10:56] History is very humbling, Jordan. So I was thinking, you know, we figured something out, what's happening inside the gut and we figured out how these different diseases are caused. And by the way, we even figured out the same food is not good for everyone. We know the spinach and Apple may be good for you but not good for me. And here's the best part. Oh my God, we're starting to figure out all the different diseases we can actually solve them and cure them. Not simply suppress the system, just with the food. And we found that, oh my God, we really have invented something until you read the history 2,500 years ago, the Greek doctor, Hippocrates, he said, all diseases begin in the gut. "One man's food is another man's poison. Let food be thy medicine. Let medicine be thy food." Think about that. That is what we are doing. So in fact now we develop the science to do something they intuitively know.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:11:49] So what exactly are you developing as there's going to be like a pill that I take? Is it going to be something? I mean, what am I going to get from Viome?

Naveen Jain: [01:11:55] So basically what we do is simply give you the information that's happening inside your gut and soon we'll be adding in terms of what's happening in your mitochondria, in human genes. Then we take all of that stuff and we look at it, use the AI to say, "Hey, eat this food. Don't eat this food. So what you get is the at-home kit. You do the stool test today and there will be a blood test. And once you do that, we analyze everything and say, "You know, Mr. Jordan, you should not be eating kale. You should not be eating blueberries. You should not be eating spinach. However, it's okay for you to be eating everything else," and we tell you why. The beauty is we tell you don't eat this and why. Eat these food and why?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:12:38] So people are going to be mailing you their poop. That's what's going to happen.

Naveen Jain: [01:12:43] Yeah. That's basically, there's more information in that poop than you can possibly imagine.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:12:49] That's interesting.

Naveen Jain: [01:12:49] I don't know if this is a good place to be talking about it. Did you know?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:12:53] You mean, it's a good place to be talking about this?

Naveen Jain: [01:12:57] Did you know that most high-profile people include the president always have a portable toilet?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:13:03] Did not know that.

Naveen Jain: [01:13:04] So Kim Jong-un, he brings a portable toilet. Trump brings a portable toilet because they do not want that poop to be going out. Because from the poop we can, we can see what diseases you have. We can tell you what drugs you're taking. We can tell you everything that's going on inside of your human body. So that poop is really valuable. So don't call that --

Jordan Harbinger: [01:13:24] Don't call it shit. That's interesting. So world leaders, they bring their poop with them. Who's job is that? That's the intern job at the Secret Service, carrying the poop, the portable poop briefcase. Geez, I did not know that. Are you sure about that?

Naveen Jain: [01:13:40] Oh yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:13:40] That is completely bonkers. Wow. So every world leader pretty much. Like there's a cutoff though, right? Certain world leaders, they're not at the level.

Naveen Jain: [01:13:48] You and I are probably not getting a portable toilet.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:13:50] No, I don't care who has my bacteria. If you want to steal my poop, you can go right ahead. That's, that's unbelievable. So theoretically somebody could take someone else's poop, send it to Viome, and they've got a whole read on that person. The new espionage, stealing--.

Naveen Jain: [01:14:04] There you go. That is really the greatest finding if you can say. Now, that just people believe our president may be crazy. We actually can prove our president is crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:14:13] That's right. That's right. Where's the data? It's right here in this bag. Unbelievable. Naveen, thank you so much. When do you go to the moon? Do we know yet?

Naveen Jain: [01:14:22] We are going to be actually launching our first mission to the moon, second half of next year.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:14:27] And what happens when you get there? You're going to the moon. And then what?

Naveen Jain: [01:14:29] So, you know, obviously the first mission is going to be a robotic mission for us to be able to know that we have underlying technologies to be able to land on the moon, hop in the moon, and to be able to explore the moon. And then the second part, we really would be to understand how can we take the water on the moon and to be able to create hydrogen and oxygen? That means now we have rocket fuel and you also have a few for humans. And then now we can be, how do we create the habitat for humans and to be able to start living on the moon.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:14:55] That's so crazy. So you're going to send this robot to the moon. It's going to stay there and never come home, I assume.

Naveen Jain: [01:14:59] That's going to be a one-way ticket to the moon.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:15:01] Wow. Wow. And that's just the beginning.

Naveen Jain: [01:15:05] That's the beginning and really believe, you’re asking me that in the next 10 to 15 years, we as humans are going to become a multiplanetary society. We'll be living on the moon or the Mars or moon and the Mars in the next 20 years. There's going to be a baby born on the moon and the parents are going to be looking at this stuff and saying, "Look up. We come from that planet."

Jordan Harbinger: [01:15:26] That is crazy. I don't know if I could do it, but you know that's for future generations. They might be excited about this

Naveen Jain: [01:15:34] But we all, I mean at the end of the day we are all explorers. We explore the seven continents of this planet. Think of the moon as our it continent. I mean why wouldn't we want to explore it? It used to take months going from one place on this planet earth to other place and we still explored for 90 days and you think for three-day journey to the moon, we just don't want to do it.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:15:56] Yeah, good point. I didn't realize it was only three days. I think the problem is when you get there, the Internet's really slow. I think that's real.

Naveen Jain: [01:16:02] It's only slow today. It's not going to be slow tomorrow. You're going to have very high speed internet. Think about what if you had all the high-speed internet and you're able to be connected. What's the difference between, you know, you and I living here in Bay area and someone living in a Sydney and we are able to have the same conversation that's going to be yet another Sydney with nowhere else to go.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:16:21] True. Yeah. Right. With nothing to do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It might be -- good point.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:16:28] Did I say Sydney?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:16:30] Hypothetic, yeah, not Sydney, Australia. I love that. The other one, right? That's, yeah, that is fascinating and it's funny that if things go the way they're currently going, the moon will have faster and better internet than North Korea at that point.

Naveen Jain: [01:16:43] Well, that is no doubt about it, in fact, because there's no reason for us to not be able to connect.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:16:47] Right.

Naveen Jain: [01:16:47] I mean, there's absolutely no theoretical reason why we at the moon and not going to be high speed connection that you could do.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:16:55] Wow. So fascinating. Well, thank you for your work and thank you for coming on the show today.

Naveen Jain: [01:16:58] Thank you, Jordan. Look forward.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:17:01] Great big thank you to Naveen. He's really a sharp character and I hope he's successful in everything that he does because he's got dreams and small dreams if you look at our gut biome, which is now new science is really showing, there's a lot going on in the gut that we honestly just don't understand. So Viome, his gut biome company and Moon Express should be doing big things here in the near future and I know they just got a huge contract with NASA, so there's real news here. It's not hyperbole and smoke. Stuff's going to happen. Fingers crossed anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:17:31] If you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage my relationships for business and professional reasons, I've got systems, I've got tiny habits and I'm teaching you those for free in Six-Minute networking over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Don't say you'll do it later. Dig that well before you get thirsty because you need those relationships at some point and when you need them, you're too late to build them. Jordanharbinger.com/course is where that's at. Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Naveen Jain. I'm at jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:18:09] This show is produced in association with PodcastOne. And this episode is co-produced by Jason "Moonshot" DeFillippo and Jen Harbinger. Show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogarty. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Remember, we rise by lifting others. so the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and even those who don't. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:18:38] A lot of people ask me which podcasts I listen to and recommend and one show which I love is run by my dear friend Omar. It is the $100 MBA and he's really good at teaching. I mean in a past life, Omar, you were a teacher and you've got a ton of content here. It's a daily show, episode 1231, near and dear to my heart, Five Tips for Getting More Work Done on a Plane. I thought I was good at getting work done on a plane and then this episode kind of blew it wide open. Tell me a little bit about that.

Omar Zenhom: [01:19:05] Yeah. Actually, we created this episode because we got a lot of questions about this via email. And also just my own personal experience, you get on a like a long haul flight and you're like telling yourself I'm going to get work done on the fly, I'm going to get work done on this flight. And then you end up like watching Crazy Rich Asians three times in a row or something, but then I was like, okay, what does work? So through experimentation we kind of broke down what are the five things that are actually doable or doable tasks that you can do on a plane, even without Wi-Fi, even if the plane doesn't have Wi-Fi. So you can get things done in a reasonable way. So you're like don't have high expectations, but at the same time, you leave the flight or you get to your destination feeling okay. That was really productive.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:19:47] That's great. I think a lot of us, we, like you said, either watch Crazy Rich Asians or we're like, "Oh, I didn't download the Google Doc. Oh, I didn't, my email didn't sync." And then you just end up kind of using it as an excuse to not do anything.

Omar Zenhom: [01:20:00] Totally. Yeah. We cover those things about like what are some things that you'd have to do beforehand and what are some things you don't have to worry about because you can work done regardless if you sync things up or you have a connection or not.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:20:12] And bonus tip noise-canceling headphones.

Omar Zenhom: [01:20:15] Totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:20:17] All right. That's the $100 MBA show. You can find it anywhere you get your podcasts and of course we'll link to this episode for Five Tips for Getting More Work Done on the Plane in the show notes for this episode as well. Thanks Omar.