1331: Your Boyfriend’s Wrath Is Blocking Your Path | Feedback Friday

1331: Your Boyfriend's Wrath Is Blocking Your Path | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by Lufthansa. Lufthansa Allegris is an innovative, elevated travel experience across all classes, focusing on each person with their own individual and situational needs. Look forward to your own feel-good moment above the clouds. Visit lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more.

Lufthansa Allegris, all it takes is a yes.

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my bro-man with a notepad, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: gold smugglers, Russian spies, astronauts, rocket scientists. This week we had Javier Leiva on why we obey, the psychology behind why people fall for, I don't even know if you can call it pranks they're so harmful, phone calls and [00:01:00] scams.

We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on psychic detectives, which is about as real as you might expect. On Fridays though we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and climb the favela caliber mountains of your most trying and intimidating life conundrums.

Producer Jase Sanderson: Hey guys, it's producer Jase here. If you want to skip Gabe's thoughts on Brazilian street muggings and the story of the weirdest yoga class of his life, you can take a Vinyasa and jump straight to 13 minutes and 30 seconds. Namaste. Speaking of which, Gabe, you're still in Rio?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep, still in Rio. I'm heading to Florianopolis tomorrow, though.

Jordan Harbinger: I've heard good things. It looks really stunning,

Gabriel Mizrahi: actually. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it. I already found a good yoga teacher through a friend of mine, and I got this Airbnb on a country estate of some kind with a cat who lives there, so- Okay ... things are looking up.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so right up your alley.

All you need.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, as much as I've enjoyed it here in Rio, it will be nice [00:02:00] to not worry about being mugged for at least a week, maybe two.

Jordan Harbinger: That's what everyone says about Rio, including people from Rio that I know, but do you actually feel like you're in danger there, or is it just you know that you are?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, dude, I don't. Okay. I don't at all, but I can't tell if I'm being naive, or the danger's overstated, or the danger is real but people just don't mess with me. I really have no idea. Maybe they see the yoga mat sticking out of my backpack and they're like, "Eh, better leave that one alone." They see it's a Manduka and they just go running for the hills.

Exactly. It's that eco-friendly rubber really chucks people. But yeah, everyone I meet here keeps telling me not to use my phone when I'm on the street or by the beach, and they're all like, "Watch your back because anything could happen. People roll up on motorcycles, grab phones." I assume they know better than I do.

I just got here. I am doing all those things, but I honestly, I just don't feel that edge that you feel in dangerous cities at all, and I'm tired of having to keep an eye out all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I get that. You can't completely relax when you can't even leave your phone on the table while you're [00:03:00] eating or in your hand.

It's nice to be able to turn off that part of your brain. For

Gabriel Mizrahi: sure, but I really did like it here. I think I learned more Portuguese in 10 days in Rio than I did in, like, a month or more in Portugal, or maybe just my Portuguese made a bigger leap here than it did there. Interesting. It's a good feeling. Is it because of the people, you think, or what?

I think it's the people, yeah. I'm finding them very friendly for the most part. Maybe I'm also more open now after traveling a bunch. The accent is way easier to understand. They actually open their mouth and enunciate, so it's a little bit easier to learn, and I've been meeting Brazilians who don't speak English, so there's that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there it is, the best way to learn. Get some local friends. Get a long-haired dictionary, you know what I'm saying? You'll be watching City of God without subtitles in no time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, the yoga studio I've been going to, the classes there are all in Portuguese, so that has been a game changer.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. Now you can order up dog and down dog in any restaurant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly, my favorite dishes. Yeah. Hitting that Duolingasana. You learn a lot of good words in yoga. You [00:04:00] learn, you know, like stretch, turn, lift your leg, right elbow, left knee, twis- stuff like that. But I'm also learning words that I will never use, like butterfly and pretzel.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I feel like you might use those words.

It's not that weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not really a pretzel guy.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess that's

Gabriel Mizrahi: why I said

Jordan Harbinger: that. So Gabe, most people like joy. That's really the big difference here. Oh, yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have heard about this. Phrases

Jordan Harbinger: like warm pretzel, pretty butterfly, they come in handy for some people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And phrases like, "Can I get a prison cot for one?"

uh, do not. I always forget that. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. I suppose you'll learn one day. Yeah. Oh, dude, the weirdest thing happened at yoga the other day. I wanted to tell you about this. What happened? You didn't, you

Jordan Harbinger: forgot to take a shirtless selfie afterwards and post it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Much weirder than that. So we were, like, 10 minutes into this class.

It was a heated class, and we were still warming up. It was very chill. Not a hard class, not a crazy class whatsoever. And all of a sudden, I just hear this pop. Oh, in your leg? No, not [00:05:00] me. Across the room. Oh, no. Actually, pop is not the right word. It was worse than a pop. It was like a snap. Oh. Like a loud snap.

Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: that's ... Ouch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, no. And then a man in the back row started crying, like sobbing and groaning. It was so awful. Yeah. One of the worst sounds I think I've ever heard in real life. So, what, did he just tear his ACL somehow? Or I, I don't even understand what you could do. That was my first thought because that can happen if you rotate your knee too far in a pose or you force it into a weird position or whatever.

But it was so loud. I was like, "How does an ACL make that sound?" And it turned out he broke his, I don't know if it was his tibia or his femur, but he broke his leg. Oh my God, in yoga. In yoga, dude. I have no idea how you do that, but he did it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So he, I don't know, he pushed his leg too far in a stretch or something?

I mean, it seems like it shouldn't be that easy to do that when you're not moving,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but I don't know. I actually Googled it because I was curious, and they said it's extremely hard to do, but maybe he already had a stress fracture or he- He [00:06:00] was a young guy though, so I don't think he had osteoporosis. But it's possible it was just waiting to happen or he already had an injury.

But it was so intense. I felt so bad. It was really hard to hear him moaning on the floor and just cry- Yeah ... It was also a little bit awkward as well because the teacher went over to check on him and then class kind of stopped for about five minutes. Maybe longer. And I was sitting there in the, I think we were, like, in a twisting lunge or something, and I was like, "Do we sit down?

Do you stay in the pose and wait? Is that weird?"

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Rubbing it in this guy's face. What's the protocol here?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, were you trying to do this, pal? As your arm goes up a little bit higher and you bend your wrist back. Yeah, was this, was this what you were aiming at when you broke your leg while standing in yoga?

Literally, dude. That's funny. I'm sure that was actually the last thing on his mind is he's like, "Hey, am I going to be able to walk again and do this?" And it's super embarrassing, too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. But really, what do you do? Do you keep working out? Do you walk over and check on the person? Do you give them space? Do you just sit there and [00:07:00] hold good thoughts for them?

I kind of did all those things.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what they need? They need those Japanese guys who bring out the barricades at the Olympics.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What is this? I'm not familiar with this.

Jordan Harbinger: You, oh, you ... Oh, dude, you've never seen it. No. Okay, so in Japan, I want to say it was Japan during the Olympics. You watch, like, power lifting or something, an athlete gets injured, they go down and they're like, "Ah!"

And everyone's like, "Oh my God." And then normally in every other country, the coaches run over and there's medical personnel and stuff, and the audience is just kind of like, "Dang, that guy got injured," right? And then you're watching. In Japan, a whole crew of dudes comes out with basically, like, a folding barricade, kind of like a folding table situation, but long, and they put it around the injured person and all the staff so nobody else can really see what's going on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, like when they're doing construction on the 405. Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. I've never heard of this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's funny because they do this kind of, it's like an awkward shuffle because they're carrying this thing and they also, they don't, like, sprint in because other people are walking in that are more important, like medical personnel.

And [00:08:00] they set this thing up and they ... It sounded like a South Park-ish kind of looking thing and- That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: exactly what I was picturing, like a 2D animation.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it, the audience just can't see what's happening, and they're just very calm, right? They're like, "And here are the injury guys." They're not like, "Oh, my goodness."

Uh, they're just completely stoic, and they set up these barricades.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is to give the person privacy?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's very Japanese. Somehow they give them privacy. Maybe there's a dignity element, because when you're on the ground and you're like, "Ah," because your leg is dislocated from your knee or some- you know, you've separated your, your hip socket or whatever, lifting a ton of weight, or your shoulder.

So they just, yeah, I get it. It's probably nice. You're like, "Oh, not everybody's watching me. There's not a camera in my face like, 'Hey, how you doing over there?'" Nobody can take a photo of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is Japan for you. Yes. Definitely, yeah. I guess the yoga studio could use some of those. I think so. That's hilarious.

But it's weird, because my Portuguese is still pretty shaky, as you know, so I didn't go over there and check on him, because I didn't know how to say, like, "Are you okay, dude? Do you need me to call someone? Could I get you something?" Actually, I guess I do know how to say those things now that I think about it, but in the moment, I [00:09:00] froze, and I didn't want to overstep and then mess up my words.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it makes sense. I think if you break your leg in your hometown yoga studio, you don't really need/want some gringo in a que bonito hat in your face being like, "You bad? Me call ambulance? Call me?" Like-

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that that's how you think I sound in Portuguese, but you are not wrong. That's how it sounds to them if it were...

Yeah. Leg no funciona. I think the man was in enough pain. I was just going to leave him alone.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Meanwhile, he's like, you know, "Oh, good, I'm glad you asked," and he tells you something, and you're like, "Hang on, I only understood half of what you said. Can you say that slower?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, let me get my translator.

Maybe I Google Translate. Say that again.

Jordan Harbinger: I've got to load this app that understands you. Yeah. Look, I remember living in other countries. You don't speak the language very well. It's not just not having the words. It's like you don't really know how to participate in certain things. You see someone fall, and you go to help them up, and they're talking to you, and you're like, "Ah, I don't really understand."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You don't know how to participate, and you also don't know if you're truly welcome to. But if this happened in [00:10:00] America, I'm pretty sure I would've gone over there and at least tried to help. "Are you okay? What can I do?" And instead, I just sat there quietly in child's pose and wished him well in my head in English.

Jordan Harbinger: So what ha- did they cancel class and just cart him out, or what? No.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Some people helped him limp out of the room, and I guess he went to the hospital, and then the teacher resumed class, and a few minutes later, we all seemed to forget that a guy just snapped his leg in half in the beginning of yo- it was kind of bizarre, actually.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Funny how that works, but it's also like, I can't do anything about this, and I'm already here, and I already paid for the class, so let's get down to business.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Now he has to just get a doctor, I guess. It was funny, because afterward, the teacher was downstairs eating fruit from some kind of breakfast spread in the lobby of the studio, which, by the way- Another thing I love about doing yoga in other countries, because in Europe and Brazil I've noticed that they serve tea after class at a lot of studios, and apparently also breakfast sometimes, which I've never seen.

Jordan Harbinger: That's, way to make us look bad. Take notes, CorePower. I've never had a snack there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Literally, dude. Can you imagine? Never. They charge you for water. So I was [00:11:00] like- Yes ... Hey, I popped out. I was like, "Hey, thanks for class. Hope that guy's okay," in Portuguese. And she was like, "Yeah, ba-da-da-da-da-da-da. I'm teaching a handstand workshop at the Botafogo lo-

location next Saturday if you want to come." And I just froze and just buffered for a few seconds. I think I know what she said, but I'm not 100% sure. And then, you know, I just said, like, "Okay, cool. Thank you." And in my head I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go Google half those words later and decide if they apply to me at all."

Which it turns out they kind of do, but I had other plans. And then I went to a cafe and I prepped the show.

Jordan Harbinger: It's, it... Oh, man, I hope that guy's okay. Should be. Anyway, it's $20 a person- ... and it starts at 1:00 PM. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: like- That's literally what it was. I was like, "I hope that man survives." And she was like- "We'll

Jordan Harbinger: never see him again, but you, on the other hand, can make it to my handstand workshop in Botafogo on Saturday morning."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You look like a man who needs to work on his inversions. Am I right? Gosh, who needs Duolingo when you have emergencies

Jordan Harbinger: happening around you all the time?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is a trial by fire every single day.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, don't break your shin in yoga, man. Your [00:12:00] travel stories must continue. I genuinely worry about what would happen to the show if you couldn't work out.

I feel like, I think my performance on this podcast would go down if I couldn't be phys- I would just, yeah, be kind of a mess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is not pretty when I can't work out. No, same. I know. I've been thinking about that ever since that happened. I will be careful, I promise. I

Jordan Harbinger: have this recurring nightmare where I can't use my legs anymore and I have to redo my entire workout.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Here's what's interesting about it. Before I started working out, I had this dream or nightmare that I lost the use of my legs, and it was like my life was just over. Like, I was so upset and sad, and it was like I had to install wheelchair ramps, and, like, I had to... I was, like, embarrassed because I would go to do something for my kids or family, and I was, like, the guy who was in the...

And then when I started working out- The dream totally changed. I would lose the use of my legs and I would be like, "All right," Chad, my trainer, I'd be like, "We have to redo all these exercises because I can't do leg stuff anymore and I'm just going to get, like, a super jacked upper body and be that guy who, like, walks in on his hands in the kids class and [00:13:00] everyone's laughing and cheering."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You use a handstand workshop.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, going to need a handstand workshop. But it's kind of funny because the dream changed to this much more empowering version where my life s- merely changes in a material way, but not for the worse. Yes. Whereas before it was, like, a massive downgrade and I, I was just depressed about it, and then I'd wake up.

That says

Gabriel Mizrahi: a lot about how far you've come, and also, like, how important working out is to you.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Love that. Exact-

Jordan Harbinger: like, I just feel like I can fix anything. If I can lose 50 pounds of fat and get strong at age 40, I could survive not being able to walk. Like, it's just, you just change things. It's 2026.

It's not the end anymore. Yeah. All right. So all that to say, no pretzels for you, butterfly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Percibido, mano. All

Jordan Harbinger: right, let's dive on in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag, mano?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So about a month ago on episode 1313, we took a letter from a listener who was asking why we, well, mostly I, I guess, on that one, steered another listener away from religious counseling.

The listener he was referring to, just to remind everybody, was this woman who had terminated a pregnancy [00:14:00] unnecessarily because she was very afraid of having a special needs child. She's religious. She's a Christian. She's struggling to talk to other people in her community about this. And so when she wrote in, I said, "I would look for a therapist who's outside of your community."

And this guy wrote in asking why we would tell a listener to turn away from her faith at precisely the moment she needed it most, and I clarified on that recent episode that I was not suggesting she turn away from her faith at all, just that I wasn't sure she was going to receive the true therapy she needed and also hopefully a more objective point of view from a pastor at her church.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, and that opened up a larger discussion about the risks of religious counseling, how it can often have an agenda or be way less rigorous or not be carried out with the same ethics and standards as, you know, clinical/licensed psychotherapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. So after we took that letter, I got three fascinating letters from listeners who all had very different experiences with religious counseling.

And so I wanted to share them because they're fascinating, and I think they're also going to help round [00:15:00] out the picture a little bit more and hopefully balance out some of our own biases or limited experience in this domain.

Jordan Harbinger: I love it. Three-for-one deal on religious counseling today.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So here's the first one: "Hi, guys.

I just listened to episode 1313, then listened to the OG episode and honestly thought it was very balanced. Your response in this latest episode got me thinking about a time in my own life when I was deeply connected to a faith and faith community, and I sought a religious counselor's help I grew up in a very conservative, non-denominational Christian household in the '90s and early 2000s.

I could spend hours exploring that background, but when I was in my late 20s, I had a real awakening when I went off hormonal birth control. Shout out to your episodes on that topic, by the way. That was the interview with Dr. Sarah Hill, episodes 1031 and 1032 And I realized I made a mistake in marrying who I did right out of college.

The relationship was not abusive or anything extremely bad, [00:16:00] just probably not the person I would have chosen had my brain not been influenced by the birth control. I also had a real crisis of faith and questioned everything from the marriage to my desire for children to do I believe what I say I do, or is this just me trying to please my parents and pretending about everything?

During that period of about six months, my husband and I ended up, quote-unquote, "going to counseling," which was just meeting with a pastor and his wife from our church. I don't want to say anything negative about them because they are truly lovely people who genuinely care and are good examples of what a pastor can be.

I went into these meetings questioning the efficacy of figuring out what was going on in my head and my marriage, but was genuinely open to changing my mind about the conclusion that I felt was inevitably coming. What I found was that when I opened up about my questions, emotions, doubts, et cetera, I received responses that seemed trite and [00:17:00] condemning.

For example, I shared that I had deep misgivings about why I got married in the first place to this guy, even though there was nothing objectively wrong with him. The response was that I should pray and maybe have some chocolate because it's probably just my hormones taking over my emotions.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, yes.

Pray and maybe have some chocolate. I believe that's the current gold standard therapy for an existential crisis.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just trying to imagine how this conversation went down. "Listen, guys, I don't know if I married the right person." And they're like, "We understand. Three Hail Marys and two Toblerones."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, seriously.

"Hey, I'm not sure if I believe in all this or if I'm just trying to please my parents." That sounds like a seventy percent cacao problem to me. Look, I hear you that they're lovely people. I'm sure they were doing their best.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, probably more naive than nefarious based on what we're hearing.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so, but still, it's crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I asked if they ever had misgivings about who they married after the wedding. Their response? "Absolutely never. Not a thing. This is [00:18:00] God's will," said with a weird smile and head nod. This from a religious woman who also had a Bible verse to share for everything. After about three or four of these conversations, both together and individually, I felt like we weren't making any progress, and it became clearer and clearer to me that this marriage was done and not what was best for either of us.

These counseling sessions just further showed me that my thoughts and actions were aligning much more with who I was versus what I had been pretending to be most of my life. I didn't seek any other therapy, which honestly maybe I should have looking back. But at the same time, I felt a lot of clarity and conviction in the steps I took to dissolve things, even though it was hard.

I know I, quote-unquote, "let down" lots of people through this process. I lost pretty much all of my friends from college and the church. Took a few years to really repair my relationship with my parents, and I was formally excommunicated by this church.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, that must have been very intense, very hard.

[00:19:00] Sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: At the same time, it was liberating to finally express doubt in the face of extreme communal pressure and then to step out onto my own path.

Jordan Harbinger: I bet. Well done, my friend. It takes real courage. To be clear, I don't mean giving up your faith. I know people are going to hear it that way. I mean to ask tough questions when other people aren't and forge your own path.

I just think that's so important.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I don't think this is how everyone's story goes. I did see examples of couples and individuals who sought church counselors and then seemed to stay in the fold, as it were. So just like with any sort of therapy, I suspect there can be good and bad gleaned from whatever path you take.

It may help, it may muddy things a bit, it might bring new things to light, but we shouldn't be afraid to raise our hands and say, "Hey, I need help thinking through this thing," even if it is ugly and hard to face. But then to also be brave enough to say, "This path isn't working so well for me. Let me try a different one."

Jordan Harbinger: Amen to all that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It did take my parents some time to accept that I [00:20:00] wasn't on the same spiritual path and to embrace my now husband. But seven-plus years and two grandkids later, our relationship is stronger than ever.

Jordan Harbinger: That's great. I love to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then finds those lessons she can carry forward and apply in her life down the road.

Thank you, amigos. Have a great weekend. Signed, a gal who learned to be true when she bit off more, both doctrine and chocolate, than she could chew.

Jordan Harbinger: Great, great story. Gabe, these letters you're reading in this segment, I'm getting the sense that they're mostly going to speak for themselves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. I don't have a ton to add.

I would actually kind of love to let our listeners do the teaching on this one, because this is all new information for us.

Jordan Harbinger: That sounds good to me. The only thing I want to say about this one is it is not easy to interrogate the beliefs you grow up with, religious, political, cultural, whatever they are, but it's incredibly important if only to know that you are truly choosing your belief system.

It sounds like she made the right call here, certainly separating from a person who simply wasn't right for her, and I'm happy that she [00:21:00] did. It sounds like that led to a lot of joy, a happier marriage, more integrity, this very full life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And also an opportunity for her parents to get to know her as the person she is, not the person she was pretending to be for their sake, which I think is very powerful.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. It's just really awesome to hear. And the other thing I just have to say is I feel like these husband and wife pastor team, that is just a new breed of Lydia, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally, dude. Lydio and Lydia over here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They're doling out Bible verses and thought-terminating cliches like candy, and what's interesting is that the whole- And then, and then

Gabriel Mizrahi: also doling out literal candy- Yes

to fix deep-seated problems.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Th- that will never not make me laugh. I know they're decent people. They probably thought she needed an aphrodisiac or something because they have just an insanely simplistic view of relationships. But I love that they were trying to solve her genuine spiritual and romantic crisis with a flippin' Baby Ruth.

That is just hilarious to me. Adding these two to the Feedback Friday pantheon as well. Grandmaster Carlos, Lydio [00:22:00] and Lydia. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Speaking of candy, uh, you want to unwrap the next one?

Jordan Harbinger: Yep, let's do it right after a quick ad break. You know what'll fix your marriage faster than a dime store chocolate bar? The sweet deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. One of my sisters, Katie, had a terrible postpartum experience when her first child was born two years ago and a friend's church offered biblical counseling, which is different from Christian counseling. In case you don't know, Christian counseling is largely just like secular counseling, but the practitioner happens to be a Christian.

It's based on the same worldview. They go to the same schools with the same philosophy and largely follow the same process, only diverging from standard secular practice where it directly contradicts God's word. Gabe, is that true? I don't know. If she's describing licensed therapists in America anyway who happen to be Christian, then I would be extremely surprised if this were true.

If they ignored professional duties and like best practices when something a patient says or a topic that comes up goes against their faith, I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I'm just shocked to hear this.

Jordan Harbinger: Same here. That surprised me. But if this does [00:26:00] happen a lot or a little, that one little difference would change the, quote-unquote, "same process" dramatically, would it not?

I mean, if a patient talks about, I don't know, being gay, at that point does the therapist go, "Okay, well my training taught me to accept people and let the patient drive, but now this contradicts God's word and I have to encourage abstinence and try to convince them that they're straight"?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, I would be very surprised if most licensed Christian therapists would do that, but I guess it's possible that they might frame things in terms of ethics or maybe they would invite certain concepts into session if the patient hopefully is open to that.

I really want to believe that they would still put the patient first and they wouldn't lead with their agenda though, but who knows? I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm also puzzled by this because what is God's word? People disagree about that all the time. Christian scholars in the same denomination, they disagree about this all the time.

So what counts as a contradiction? Doesn't that really just depend on the counselor's personal religious beliefs at that point?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Very good point. And what's the difference between a [00:27:00] contradiction and a tension? When does a patient go against scripture and when are they like appropriately challenging it?

Jordan Harbinger: This is very complicated, man. I really want to hear the rest of the story before I draw too many conclusions, so let's keep going.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair enough. So she goes on, "Biblical counseling, the kind my sister sought out, is entirely different because its foundation is the Bible and it leans on what it says to guide the process, particularly regarding the nature of mankind."

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so this is more like what Lidio and Lydia were doing, which is like, "Nope, it's the word of God. Next. Next question."

Gabriel Mizrahi: The fact that both Katie and her counselor started out in full agreement on several basic truths streamlined the process quite a bit But Katie said the most important thing was that she learned about the service from a mutual friend of the counselor, so there was some automatic trust there, coupled with significant distance from her own social network, which she wouldn't have had going anywhere else.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I don't quite understand. She wouldn't have had privacy and trust by going [00:28:00] to a Christian therapist who is bound by confidentiality? Of course she would've.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think she meant if she had gone to any other biblical counselor, because it would've been too close.

Jordan Harbinger: So is that a feature or is that just a bug?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting question. So she goes on. She doesn't think she would've ended up getting help anywhere if it hadn't been for that recommendation. She was just so vulnerable and ashamed, irrationally of course, but that was the problem, and we're all so glad she tried it.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. I mean, that makes some sense. So a lot of layers to this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other big thing was that the counselor got right to the heart of the problem, which only a biblical counselor knows and believes to do.

Jordan Harbinger: That's what's going on here. Only a biblical counselor knows and believes it's important to get to the heart of a person's problem? Is that what she's saying?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if she meant in general or if she meant in contrast to these other more mainstream Christian coun- but either way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, either way, that's just not true. I'm so confused. I want to be [00:29:00] open here, I genuinely do. I know we're doing this to learn, but does our friend truly believe that only counselors who are approaching people through the lens of the Bible know and believe it's important to get to the root of a problem?

Dr. Margolis from Stanford doesn't know and believe that she needs to get to the root of problems with her patients?

Gabriel Mizrahi: This raises another question, which is how a biblical counselor defines the heart of a problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If a patient tells them, "Hey, I might be gay," is the heart of the problem that they're not straight, or that their family might not accept them, or they might be wrestling with shame about it, or they might be in danger, or just that, hey, they're doing something that's against the Bible?

Boom, mic drop. See you next week, or just never again. The problem is you're not living according to the Bible. Bye. That worries me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if they believe in getting to the heart of the matter, are they then guiding the conversation very quickly to that heart in, like, a, a heavy-handed way with an agenda?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, sure, in a way that doesn't foreground the patient, exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And in a way that might not focus as much on, like, empathy, trust, the relationship. Although I'm guessing a [00:30:00] biblical counselor would probably say, "Hey, I empathize with my congregationists, but I'm here to solve a problem and these are the tools that I have."

Yeah, but then I would ask,

Jordan Harbinger: is that truly therapy?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Katie said it was frustrating at first because she just wanted the days to get easier, and when you start at the root, it takes a bit longer to see the change. But of course, that's the only way for the change to last, and she and the baby are doing great now.

She says the counseling helped her immensely.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I'm glad she feels it was helpful. I genuinely am. I'm not minimizing anyone's growth through this kind of counseling. I just have a lot of questions about whether this is actually therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As I see it, the whole question of when to seek out what kind of help rests on whether you believe the Bible is true.

If you believe the Bible is true, talking to a biblical counselor and following their advice is a good way to put that belief into practice. And from what I understand, putting one's beliefs into practice is a necessary component of happiness.

Jordan Harbinger: Putting one's beliefs into practice is a necessary component of happiness.

Huh. Uh, okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another [00:31:00] very interesting stance.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I know tons of people who live passionately by their beliefs, religious or otherwise, who are totally miserable, but whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, fair point. Also depends on the beliefs in question, I imagine, but okay, we digress. Let's keep going. I think

Jordan Harbinger: people

Gabriel Mizrahi: get the

Jordan Harbinger: idea here, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If you do not believe the Bible is true, then I see no reason to go to a biblical counselor at all outside of curiosity. Of course, the big threat is that you take your problem to someone in your church and they mishandle it, and then your whole social life is potentially in ruins. So I would never advise anyone to take a big leap there if they don't already have a strong, trusting relationship with someone who has proven themselves to be wise and discreet.

I think it's fairly common to not have that kind of relationship within your circle of acquaintances where the stakes are incredibly high.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but we do understand that bind is precisely why professional ethics and confidentiality exist, right? The kind of confidentiality that only a [00:32:00] licensed clinician has a professional duty to uphold.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But biblical counseling is a largely decentralized, unregulated, thank heavens, practice, which makes it kind of a Wild West. Virtually anyone can call themselves a biblical counselor with or without wisdom or discretion.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, unregulated, thank heavens, which means it allows and probably even attracts charlatans and bad actors and people who will mishandle your problem, but okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be fair, I don't think she disagrees with that.

Jordan Harbinger: But that's why these agencies exist, to protect patients from people like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And she might say to prevent counselors from helping people with the Word of God.

Jordan Harbinger: And so that's a worthwhile trade-off? Okay. Presumably.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For my part, I'm religious and I've been struggling myself for some time, largely with motivation, depression, apathy after some difficult stuff in my childhood.

And the reason is that I don't obey the Bible. [00:33:00] I keep choosing my own way instead of His. I'm miserable because my actions don't align with my beliefs. There's that idea again. The next time I take the plunge into counseling, it will be from one of these folks, meaning a biblical counselor, and he or she will challenge me on that, and I'll hate it.

But if the Lord is gracious, which He is, I'll face it and repent, and He'll fix it Signed, Getting to the Bottom of How My Sister Healed Postpartum.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that's quite an ending.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, I don't know how much we should dig in today.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, same. Although clearly I can't help myself. No, dude. But okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're on one.

And she's also not asking for advice. I know. She's just kind of sharing. But yeah, this raises a lot of questions for me.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, despite my obvious beliefs/lack thereof, I want to be clear. I really have no problem with people who seek religious counseling and find good results. I really don't, as long as the results are truly beneficial and the person is not being harmed in some way.[00:34:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, I'm in the same boat. There's something to learn wherever you go. I just... I keep thinking about the opportunity cost of this kind of counseling, the therapeutic experience that could have happened with a different approach, a different kind of training, maybe more time, more space, more openness. It's not the only thing that concerns me, but it's one of the things that concerns me.

Jordan Harbinger: Is that a kind of harm? Good question. I imagine our friend here would say, "Of course not. This is the only true healing, and it's the only healing I'm interested in."

Gabriel Mizrahi: But that doesn't mean it doesn't come at a cost.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, you know what this kind of reminds me of? I remember back when I was in college, I was like, "Oh, I want to find out more about Judaism."

And I didn't really know what Hasidic Jews were, which is, like, these ultra-Orthodox, a very specific sect of Judaism. And you see them walking around with the curls and the, the fur hats that are kind of like this Russian-looking thing, and the black clothes. These are the Hasidim, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Black Hat Jews, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Black Hat Jews, yes. And so that's what a lot of people think when they think Jew. They think all Jews are like that, and they're like, "You're not Jewish. You don't have a hat," or whatever. That's what we're talking about. So I remember this guy, [00:35:00] Rabbi Jay. He used to give talks. And look, th- he was a nice guy.

He meant well. But, like, I remember one person was like, "Hey, I want to know why bad things often seem to happen to good people." And he had this story of his sister had gotten murdered by someone, and it was this very emotional moment where he was just really vulner- And w- like, there was a lot of crying, and we were all like, "Oh God, I didn't know he was going to go there."

And I don't even think he even meant to go there. I think he just asked the question and then the story came out. It was upsetting and emotional. And I will never forget. This was the last time I did anything at this particular house where we all gathered with the rabbi. He said the reason bad things happen to good people is they're actually not good people when behind closed doors, so they actually deserved whatever happened to them.

You just didn't know what they did that caused them to deserve it Okay. You're sure that's what he said? So he basically told this guy whose sister got murdered that she was actually j- secretly such a really bad [00:36:00] person that God killed her or caused her to be killed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This... Sorry, I thought the rabbi was telling this story about his own sister.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it was this, like, college student whose sister had recently been murdered. Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And you're sure that's what the rabbi meant when he said that?

Jordan Harbinger: I clarified. I was like, "Wait a minute." And so did a lot of people, by the way, who walked out and never came back because we were like, "Wait, let me get this straight."

The example he gave was sometimes you find out that this person, they lost their job or something really bad happened to them, but what you don't know is that at home he beats up his wife and kids. And you're like, or he got fired because that's a thing that happens to people, and it's not their fault when...

It doesn't mean they beat their wife. It was basically this crazy fallacy that the world is completely just, and that if something bad happens, they did something. And people were like, "What about kids who get cancer?" And he had this crazy, drawn-out spiritual explanation for why maybe they had done something or whatever.

And I, I didn't even stick around for it, so I can't articulate it here, and it's also been 25 years. But I just remember being [00:37:00] like, "What the actual F are you talking about? This is despicably ridiculous." By the way, I'm not saying that this is what Jewish people believe. If you're Jewish and you're like, "Oh my God, clarify this.

We don't believe this," or if you're not Jewish and you're like, "Jews believe this?" I'm not qualified to opine on that. I had never heard this anywhere else before or since. This might just actually be his cockamamie interpretation of something in the literature or not even in the literature. I don't know.

If you're a rabbi, can you please write to me and tell me why bad things happen to good people? Keep it 30,000-foot overview. Tell me if it's this or something wildly different, okay? because that to me was so crazy. I just never went back. I was like, "I am out."

Gabriel Mizrahi: This story you just told, which sounds pretty absurd, I guess I have a couple thoughts.

One is people are flawed, and they can say whatever they want, and they can interpret their doctrine however they want. And so if that's the way this guy feels, that's the way this guy feels. It's not what I happen to know about Judaism. In fact, [00:38:00] this question of why- Bad things happen to good people is one of the most interesting questions that gets explored in Judaism.

I remember when I was in high school, I went to a Jewish liberal high school, like pretty mainstream, but Jewish, and so we had to take Jewish studies and philosophy and stuff, and I remember tackling that exact question. And the little bit we studied when we were 16 years old was much more nuanced and much more interesting than the take that you just shared with us.

So I'm a little bit surprised to hear it, but again, people from all faiths can say all sorts of things. I guess it really comes down to the practitioners in question.

Jordan Harbinger: It does. The reason I'm bringing this up is not to be like, "Jews believe this." It's to be like, wow, you could go to that guy for life advice and just find out that you're a bad person and you deserve it.

Yikes. Gabe, I think I'm finding what I often find when I talk to people of faith, which is we're just talking to each other across an abyss. And actually, it's not the faith that creates the abyss, it's all the beliefs and assumptions around it. Our friend sees the world one way. She wants X set of things from life, [00:39:00] and I see the world another way, and I want X and Y and Z and ABC, whatever, from life.

I want somebody who calls themselves a counselor to be able to make room for all of these things for a patient, and she doesn't, okay? So at a certain point, it's like, okay, we just exist in different realities, and that's okay. I'll still come over and eat casserole on Sunday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Like we've been saying, advocating for conventional therapy is not about convincing someone not to believe what they believe.

To me, it's the opposite in many ways. It's about how big can we make the frame? Can we embark on a journey that might take us to places we can't anticipate, but which will be fruitful and which will be rewarding and interesting instead of trying to get you to a specific answer or outcome according to the Bible as I interpret it?

Jordan Harbinger: Can your therapist help you grow even if you believe something different from them?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That just does not seem particularly controversial.

Jordan Harbinger: No. But I think we're hearing from somebody who is very committed to her beliefs, right? And that's obviously her choice. I'm not super interested in trying to undo any of that.

If she were asking for [00:40:00] advice, I would definitely want to explore why it's been hard for her to live in alignment with her beliefs, what that says about the beliefs, and whether or not putting her beliefs into practice is actually the source of her unhappiness for real. What I do want to invite her to consider, though, is when you only seek out sources of help that align with those beliefs, when you say, "I will only work with people who believe what I believe, who pull from the same sources that I do, who work in this way that I'm comfortable with," for better or for worse, you're already in an echo chamber.

Any reasonable person would have to admit that. So you might meet with a biblical counselor and get something helpful from it, and if so, wonderful. That's not for me and Gabe to decide for you. But in a world where you could theoretically find a Christian therapist, a licensed clinician who is also a Christian, and get the best of both worlds, so to speak, then I do wonder why biblical counseling seems to be the only worthwhile path.

So again, it's just a question, what are you looking for, from whom, and why? That's a question I would just keep making room for as you seek out help. And now a quick break to pay some bills so we can keep [00:41:00] fixing your life week after week. We'll be right back

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We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous All right, now for letter number three in this extended series I think I'm going to call Religious Counseling: Kingdom of Heaven or Bottomless Pit? Jury's still out, I suppose. Take it away, Gabe. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Gabe and Jordan. Great episode today. The letter about whether you should have recommended a Christian counselor brought up so many thoughts, and I wanted to offer a few comments regarding the woman struggling after an abortion from the perspective of a Christian pastor.

Bottom line, you guys were spot on."

Jordan Harbinger: I've got to say, not the take I saw coming. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would have recommended the same thing." Great. [00:45:00] "Abortion is a very sensitive issue, and it's difficult because we don't know the woman's exact denomination. But I understand why she may be hesitant to speak with people in her church.

Getting an outside voice and a professional counselor is exactly the right thing to do. As pastors, we are not trained therapists. I don't pretend to be a licensed counselor and will refer people in a heartbeat if they go down that road. I expect the same of the chaplains that I supervise in the Army.

It's the whole stay in your lane thing. I think I give great life advice and I know scripture really well, how to apply it, and the complexities of theology. But I am not a trained counselor. It is different. Different education and different skill set."

Jordan Harbinger: Man, okay, this letter is giving me so much confidence in solid, responsible religious counselors and honestly, quite a bit of hope.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally different from, uh, Lydia on Lydia.

Jordan Harbinger: Y- yeah, just a complete 180. I'm glad this guy wrote in. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: On top of that, not all pastors are the same. Saying pastor is like [00:46:00] saying salesman or businesswoman. It's generic. Is that businesswoman running a Fortune 500 cutting-edge AI company, or is she a businesswoman selling homemade candles at the farmer's market?

It's the same thing with pastor. I'm Lutheran, and most of us in the mainline have a master's degree from an accredited seminary. Many mainline seminaries, including mine, do extensive psychological evaluations done by secular firms for new students. I also took one unit of clinical pastoral education working in a hospital under professional supervision.

My seminary required that." That's kind

Jordan Harbinger: of cool. I like that. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's one kind of pastor. But lots of people, charlatans, hucksters, poorly trained people, et cetera, call themselves pastor."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I sense a bit of a theme. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, that's not to say that a trained pastor can't do awful things. Some do. They are flawed human beings like anyone else.

But some pastors don't have training, don't understand confidentiality, don't [00:47:00] understand their state's mandatory reporting laws, and so on. There is a lot more to pastoring than just loving God, which hopefully every pastor does." It drives me crazy and makes me sad when I hear about abuse, coercion, manipulation, and the like done in the name of God.

So when I hear stories like the one Jordan shared about the pastor who told the husband what the wife said in counseling, it drives me up the wall. And since you're going to read this letter on air, I can't say what I said when I heard you tell that story.

Jordan Harbinger: Pastors can't drop F-bombs, I guess. I don't know.

But yeah, that's infuriating. This is the pastor who I think a woman had spoken with him and said, "Hey, I cheated on my husband. I want to know how to handle it." And he was like, "Okay." And then he went to the gym, saw the husband, and just told the guy what happened. He just told the guy what his wife told him and was like, "Yeah, she didn't follow the rules of the Bible."

And the husband came home and was like, "I'm divorcing you." And she was like, "Oh, gosh." And she sued him, I think, for that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Doing what that pastor did [00:48:00] is pastoral misconduct. It's abusive, and it is not Christian behavior.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree, but I'm not really in a position to make that call. Super helpful to hear it from you, though

Gabriel Mizrahi: Moreover, morality from scripture is more complicated than simply citing a verse.

Christian ethics involves wrestling with the tenets of our faith and trying our best to apply them to modern life.

Jordan Harbinger: So this goes back to your point, Gabe, about what a contradiction is. What he's describing, it just sounds a lot more like what you were advocating for.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wrestling rather than reconciling.

Jordan Harbinger: Process over destination. Yeah. So this guy's on. He's good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am pro-life, but I also acknowledge that there is no one specific verse about abortion in the Bible. Yes, my belief that it's wrong is based on scripture, but I also recognize that the nuances of modern life don't always lead us to black and white understandings.

The woman who originally wrote in needs counseling. She knows what her faith says about her decision to end the pregnancy, and she needs to unpack that with a true [00:49:00] counselor. A good therapist meets you where you are, respects your beliefs, and then works from that basis. A good therapist isn't going to try and convert her, so it's simple.

See a counselor. In fact, I was taught in seminary that all pastors should have counselors. I have a counselor. She's a great resource to me to talk about what I'm going through and to help me process.

Jordan Harbinger: So glad you have that support. I hear pastors and chaplains carry a very heavy load. I can only imagine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's healthy that this woman from the first letter is struggling. That was a major life event. She shouldn't look for simple answers or an easy way out.

Jordan Harbinger: But what about a semi-sweet chocolate bar? Should she look to that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. No, also too black and white.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, literally. But I think this is exactly the place we were coming from too, right?

She doesn't need her pastor to tell her that what she did was wrong.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, or even right for that matter.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She needs somebody who can listen to help her process, help her work through her conflicts. Having someone say, "Well, Jeremiah 1:5 says this. You should've kept the baby. Now you need to repent," even if you [00:50:00] believe that's true, I can't help but feel that just sort of short-circuits a much more important process.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, "It's healthy to sit in discomfort, struggle with convictions, and ask questions. I tell people in my congregation that I want them to always ask questions. I believe so strongly in my faith that I know it can withstand questioning and emerge stronger. It also allows me to better discern what is actually from God and what might just be my opinion, culture, or upbringing."

And one last thing, if that listener is only going to be met with judgment and not compassion from her church or faith community, it's time to move on and find a church that reflects the love of God that Jesus taught.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn, hot take. I don't disagree.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thanks for all you guys do. Signed, a chaplain concerned about what happens when people don't take action to seek out the right interactions.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Well, this makes me feel way better about telling that woman to see a proper therapist.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It does, doesn't it? I felt it was right, but I don't come from this background, so I always [00:51:00] wonder if we're getting it wrong.

Jordan Harbinger: I know. I always feel like, oh, am I pushing too hard on somebody who believes things that are different?

It just confirms everything we've been saying, which is that the best version of both traditions is that they are compatible with each other, but also that one is more appropriate than the other when it comes to certain conflicts or certain experiences. So I know I talked a bunch because I am lit up by the Holy Spirit on Feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You are praying at Our Lady of the News crews today, my dude.

Jordan Harbinger: I sit on the elder board there. There's so much to respond to, I find it hard not to dig in, but our goal was to mostly just let you guys share your experiences in this domain. This is a bit of a different Feedback Friday, as you probably have noticed by now.

But I'm really grateful for this last letter. I'm very grateful. What a nuanced and thoughtful take from a true expert, but also the other two letters as well. They were honest, they were vulnerable, and very eye-opening, and I'm happy to have some additional voices in the mix to give us more data points to correct for my bias and frankly my ignorance when it comes to religion, in the spirit of doing what we were just talking about, which is making the frame as big as possible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that is [00:52:00] actually a perfect transition, so we'll hit the Rec of the Week and then we'll read this last letter, which I found remarkable. Sounds good. Now for

Jordan Harbinger: the recommendation of the week.

Producer Jase Sanderson: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: So my recommendation of the week is super simple. It's called hydrocolloid roll, and it's this very basic thing on Amazon that's, like, two bucks, three bucks, and it's basically a roll of tape that is almost like skin in consistency and sticky on one side and soft on the other.

And my kids, they always get little cuts or they always want Band-Aids. This stuff is so cheap, but it also sticks better. It can be washed. It's reasonably waterproof. I put this on all my little cuticle cuts or paper cuts. Like, oh, I was working on a RC car and I poked myself, or I got a little, whatever, dry skin spot.

I put this on there. It's amazing. It'll stay on for days if you want it to. It peels off. It doesn't hurt. You don't get the ripping of hair off like you would with a Band-Aid, and you cut it to size. [00:53:00] So I keep this, I have it in the bathroom. I have it in my office. I have it in my night kit. I have it in the kitchen for the kids.

And again, each roll is like $2.50 for like 10 feet of this stuff, and it's just better than Band-Aids in pretty much every conceivable way. Band-Aids, blisters, anything, any kind of scrape. So we'll link to it in the show notes. Again, it's called Hydrocolloid Roll. I don't understand why they don't make Band-Aids out of this instead.

I, in fact, I found Band-Aids that were similar, and they were like two bucks each, and this is an entire roll of this stuff for $2.50. All right, y'all, you might cut your finger, but you know what won't cut a hole in your pocket? The amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back

Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the podcast. All of the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. And now for the rest of Feedback Friday All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:54:00] So just a heads up, this last letter is not part of the Holy Trilogy like the letters that we just read, but it is part of the larger Dues Crusade. So the letter goes, "Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 43 years old and I live with my sweetheart, who's about one and a half years younger than me. He and I have been together for three years.

We are not married. We live in a rural area. He is the estranged prodigal son of a millionaire wheat farmer who owns thousands of acres of 19th century pioneer settled land, and he's been cut out of any role in his family's land, which they have farmed for five generations."

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, okay. I can confidently say I've never heard that sentence before.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. It doesn't happen very often, does it? Every once in a while.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that, that Feedback Friday somehow keeps serving up the most unusual stories ever, and it's, it's remarkable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Always something new. So she goes on, "The reasons he was cut out are complex, but suffice it to say that both son and father have been diagnosed with bipolar [00:55:00] disorder.

Both are suspected to have borderline personality disorder as well, and my sweetheart reacted to his father's cold, harsh, verbally abusive, and critical parenting style by developing lifelong oppositional defiant disorder and losing himself in drugs, alcohol, and madness from the age of 12 to his mid-30s."

Jeez, that is a lot. Both the disorders and the fact that she calls her boyfriend sweetheart.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so is that a Southern thing? because I was like, okay, she's said that maybe three times already and it's been 30 seconds.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. It might be. I've never heard this. I guess it's cute. I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: My sweetheart sounds so old-timey that I thought, oh, how old is this person again?

And you said 43. Early 40s. Yeah, so I was like, oh, is she 78 and-

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is something you would see written on the back of a black and white photo in a GI's pocket in 1942.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, it's in the helmet that was found in the trench. Oh, look, it's sweet. I've just never really heard this term [00:56:00] of endearment that many times in the, I don't know, the age of ChatGPT, I guess you would call it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: "It began with middle school marijuana use and car theft for funsies, then became rich kid cocaine use, then full-blown meth-addled insanity and living on the streets by his late 20s."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. I don't want to judge too quickly, but you said the reasons he was cut out were complex. Could part of the complexity be that he was an insane meth addict and living on the streets?

I mean ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can understand why Daddy might not want this kid near the family wheat.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Daddy sounds like a piece of work himself, but yeah, if your son is out of control like this, are you going to make him an SVP of harvesting or whatever? I don't think so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Your command of the family business, Jordan, is incredible.

I see you've really brushed up on your agriculture. This guy weeds hard. So she goes on, "Somewhere before the homelessness, my sweetheart had a daughter, but he lost all parenting and visitation rights to her by the time she was three years old. She's now 15 and lives in another state."

Jordan Harbinger: My God, this just gets [00:57:00] crazier and crazier.

Gabriel Mizrahi: "All these broken relationships and losses have really haunted my sweetheart his whole adult life, and he still ruminates on the relationship with his father and the loss of his daughter on a regular basis. Through some combination of boys wilderness reform schools, expensive for-profit rehabs in three or four states, jail dry cell torture, mental hospital stays, AA 12-step work, and probably just aging out of crime, my sweetheart eventually got to a place where he could more or less hold a job, keep housing, and stay off all drugs except THC, which he is still heavily reliant on to cope with any type of mundane stress, anxiety, or trigger."

Jordan Harbinger: For people who don't know, THC is one of the active chemical compound in marijuana. So some good news finally. It sounds like he still has a dependency, I suppose, which is unfortunate, but he's come a long way. Meth is not THC, and THC is

Gabriel Mizrahi: not meth. What a journey this guy has been on. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: novelesque. This sounds incredibly chaotic [00:58:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, I grew up poor, often in trailer parks, gradually put myself through a BA and MS over the course of sixteen years while working retail and barista jobs, and never did drugs harder than the occasional joint and a couple of mushroom trips in my early twenties.

I was raised by a violent six-foot-tall mom who had undiagnosed bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, so I have a hyper-attuned ability to navigate people who have a lot in common with grenades and landmines. Though I myself was pretty emotionally chaotic and troubled in my younger years, educational opportunities, a decent work ethic for self-examination, and a love of rational thinking and Buddhist-type takes on life have helped me find my way to a pretty peaceful state.

I'm also fascinated by intelligent but troubled people. I used to teach college classes in a prison, and my students were lifers. Fascinating. Wow. Okay. I met my [00:59:00] sweetheart four years into his California sobriety and comparative stability.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. So for anybody listening from another country or place, maybe even a different state, California sober or Cali sober basically means you don't drink, you don't use hard drugs, but you still smoke weed.

So you're not really sober.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just one of our state's many iconic exports. So she goes on, "I knew it was going to be a wild ride. I could tell from his stories and my observations of his current state that he had come a long way but still had a long way to go in catching up on many lost years of emotional and social development.

Still, I was not quite prepared for the reality of a testosterone-pumped male version of my mother, who in many ways still has the entitled rich boy attitude of a fifth-generation millionaire wheat farming heir." By this I mean that the rich don't have to learn the interpersonal skills of being considerate of other people's feelings because money can ensure all their basic needs are met regardless of what [01:00:00] they do to other people.

Jordan, it is so funny to me that this guy has lost all of the trappings of his wealth and his claim to the family fortune, but like none of the entitlement.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess it's the last thing to go. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he's compensated for losing those things by ramping up the entitlement. I feel like we've all seen examples of this, right?

Because your ego wants to compensate somehow and then you don't have any money, you don't have any achievements, you've essentially done nothing but ruin your life, so you ramp up the one thing you can, which is being an asshole unfortunately. But yeah, y- it's like, "Hey bro, maybe don't talk to your girlfriend like she's a peasant standing in the way of your Lamborghini when she's paying for your THC cookies and listening to you complain about not being able to pay child support to the kid you can't see."

I don't know, just a thought. Oof,

Gabriel Mizrahi: this sounds like a hard guy to humble.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess it just goes to show how stubborn this conditioning is. In his head, he's the temporarily inconvenienced wheat prince. It's just, it's interesting to see how he's leaning on this. [01:01:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: My sweetheart blindsides everybody he knows with his mood swings.

When he's in a great mood, he is charismatic and funny, but when he's suddenly triggered by any little irritation or perceived criticism, he can immediately morph into the most verbally abusive and oppositionally defiant six-foot-four boy you ever did see I have never witnessed him being physically violent toward anyone, but when he can't regulate his emotions, he will punch holes through the walls, break dishes, go peel out in his car in a rage, say incredibly rude and theatrically extreme things to people, and that oppositional defiance rears its head if anyone dares suggest anything to him.

He has mild rage-outs at least once or twice a week and usually a pretty big one on a monthly basis or so. He is an equal opportunity verbal abuser. It can be me, his mother, his boss, anyone, whoever happens to be in his proximity.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a little bit scary and [01:02:00] not encouraging.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When we were first together, I took it very hard.

I cried, felt scared, unloved, abused, and so on.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's abusive and super hurtful. This is terrifying that he would do this to you. Frankly, you're still there. That's something else w- I- we have thoughts on. Gabe, what did Dexter call his need to kill people? The dark passenger. Yes, the dark... This dude has a dark passenger.

He's unhinged.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He clearly has trauma, compassion, and all of that to a degree, but my God, these rage spirals are happening once or twice a week. Possibly every two or three days she has to deal with something like this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, this guy is out of control. Being in a relationship with somebody like this, I have no words.

I don't know how you do it or why you do it, for that matter, but we'll get to that. Gabe, you know what this reminds me of? On the way to the Disney cruise a few weeks ago, there was a kid in the airport in San Jose, and I don't know what happened, but his mom put something on the TSA [01:03:00] scanner from him. He wanted to do it.

This is, like, a 12-year-old boy, by the way, and he got so angry that he took a bag off the scanner and he slammed it on the ground and he started screaming, and I was like, "Oh, I must have missed the context of what happened here." So then he goes through the scanner, the family goes through the scanner.

His mom's like, "Don't act like that right now," and the dad says something like that, too. They go to the gate and I hear as I approach my gate this screaming and I'm like, "Is that the same kid?" This is like 10 minutes later because I get coffee and everything and get snacks for my kids at the airport because it's early and I still hear the screaming.

So we get to the gate and this kid is still on one and I'm like, "Wow, something really bad must have happened. The bag thing triggered him and whatnot." During the plane ride I take off my headphones because my ears start to hurt from the pressure and I hear yelling and screaming and I'm like, "Wait, has that been going on most of the time?"

And Jen's like, "Yeah, I think there's a kid in the back having..." And I'm like, "It's the same kid and it's just unbelie-" And I'm like, wait, this kid gets triggered by something and he screams for literally hours? That's the child version of [01:04:00] this guy, right? It was absolutely nuts. This kid would fight with his sister.

He was like screaming on the plane and the parents were just... I felt bad for them because of course you're like, "Hey, get your kid in order." But you're also like, there's something wrong with this person. This is not normal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Who knows if it's his wiring or there's something going on at home, but yeah. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: There were other kids and they were perfectly fine and the sister was like, "Hey, he keeps taking my iPad." And then he would growl at her and like go to bite her face and yell. And I'm like, "No, you live with a rabid animal. This kid's going to prison."

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, "We started living together a mere four months into our relationship and became fairly financially interdependent as we both work seasonal and/or freelance jobs that come with peak seasons and layoff periods, and we have no financial support from our families and no real savings or safety net built up."

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry, but the fact that this dude is picking apples and driving a snowplow or whatever for a few months at a time while also acting like a Saudi prince on vacation in Macau is- Crazy ... [01:05:00] absurd to me. I cannot tell if it's funny or tragic, really. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: both. I mean, if you met this guy picking Honeycrisps in Wisconsin, you would probably laugh at him.

But if you're his girlfriend, this is a Dostoevsky novel.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on, "This could lead a person in my situation to feel trapped, but I found some constructive ways to protect and empower myself: Al-Anon, some counseling, a class on codependency, and nearly two years of regular jujitsu practice where Grandmaster Carlos's mantra to, quote, 'Be so strong that nothing can disturb your peace of mind,' unquote, is becoming wired into my muscle memory."

Jordan Harbinger: Grandmaster Carlos, filing that away under amazing Feedback Friday characters. One thing, though, that comes to mind, I know a lot of jujitsu and martial arts guys, because everyone's into it, especially around here. One of the main teachings of any martial art is get away from the conflict. Not be so strong nothing can disturb your peace of mind, not know how to handle every [01:06:00] situation.

It's get out of there. It's not, "Here's how you handle a blade." It's get away from the blade. You shouldn't even be at the place where the blade is, right? All this martial arts stuff is like this is the last resort. So you're following Grandmaster Carlos's mantra to be so strong nothing can disturb your peace of mind while also just subjecting yourself repeatedly to the stuff that you have to resist.

Eh, wouldn't say you're exactly following the advice to a T, but maybe ask him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm increasingly unperturbed and resilient when my sweetheart has meltdowns.

Jordan Harbinger: I've got to say, the sweetheart thing, a little unsettling given the direction this letter's heading. It's like you're compensating by how much of a POS this guy is by just laying on the sweetheart thing ridiculously thick.

Why?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I see through his predictable way of behaving now, and I've gotten pretty good at setting boundaries and removing myself physically when he's losing his shit, so I'm pretty okay these days. I've learned to take a very hands-off, let him spin his own wheels approach. My refusal to participate in his worst behaviors has seemed to shorten their duration in the [01:07:00] moments they happen.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, I honestly don't know what to make of this. Like, bravo for finding all these ways of coping with the chaos, for sure. Amazing. But I'm also hearing this and I'm just thinking, are you merely desensitized to this level of crazy? Why are you still here? It's crazy to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I'm also increasingly aware of how persistent his mental health struggles are, of how he self-medicates by sucking on nicotine and THC vapes like baby bottles instead of doing any kind of therapy or truly deep 12-step work or engaging with nutrition and exercise to mitigate mental health symptoms.

The smell of cotton candy vape fumes is how I will viscerally remember this stage of my life.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is vivid. She's going to be at a Machine Gun Kelly concert in three years, standing behind some emo tweens vaping cloud mist and have a Vietnam style flashback to Tyler, the unhinged ex-wheat heir punching a hole in the wall of their Airbnb and peeling out of the driveway in his [01:08:00] Acura Integra.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was vivid, bro. Yeah, this is very much the madeleine soaked in tea of the, uh, oppositional defiant world. I have no idea what that

Jordan Harbinger: means.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's fine.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like I need to know what a madeleine soaked in tea... Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's fine. One of those references that I would be more embarrassed to explain how I know about it than to leave it alone.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no one knows, Gabe. Maybe a madeleine is a canapé.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, all right, so- About a year and a half ago, he raged verbally at his boss and got fired, which made for a hard winter when the farmhand jobs he relies on only hire in spring and during late summer harvest. Then just last week, he raged at our landlord, who was making a reasonable request of us, and he also went to our landlord's house a couple days later and yelled at our landlord's wife over the incident.

Luckily for us, it's a small town and our landlord's wife loves me, so I was able to do some rooted in Al-Anon principles damage control, basically explaining to the landlords what is and isn't within my control [01:09:00] and what I personally am able to do as a tenant to comply with their reasonable requests.

Jordan Harbinger: What a chat that must have been. Sorry I'm dating a man child and he came here to yell at you after your husband, who owns the property we live in, asked him to do something totally reasonable. Unbelievable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You ever take care of your side of the street so good you narrowly avoid being homeless? Yeah, it's a, this is a great ad for Al-Anon, I will say that.

Truly. I told them that I could not predict or promise how my sweetheart will behave, and they made it clear that if any verbal raging happens again, at least one of us will be evicted.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't blame them at all. Life's too short. Nobody needs this crap.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I made it clear to my sweetheart and my landlord that from now on, any tenant-landlord communications will go through me and not through my sweetheart.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, okay, the sweetheart thing, it's out of hand officially. This is more out of hand than sweetheart's meltdowns.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I believe we are all on the same page about this, but I'm also aware that my sweetheart Jesus Christ ... is [01:10:00] a completely unpredictable wild card. I understand that I'm taking a certain amount of risk by being willing to be his partner.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, you are.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm doing some long, hard assessment of all of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good. Sorry, not sorry at all. You need to reassess everything. This person is a mess, a giant mess, and he makes messes for you that you have to clean up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My sweetheart can't really be communicated with about anything serious.

The only way I can get him to listen to information I need to give him is if I wait several hours or even a full day until he is completely calm and then leave a letter for him before he gets home from work when I am leaving for evening jujitsu class. He gets to read my diplomatically worded honesty and have his own private space to get angry about it if he wants.

By the time I get home, he's calmed down and usually takes it upon himself to acknowledge what I have communicated. It would be easier if I could talk to him like a normal person, but I don't think that's possible with him, and this has proven to be the least stressful and least exhausting [01:11:00] way for me to assert what I need to assert with him.

Jordan Harbinger: So you have to manage him and carefully orchestrate the circumstances for him to have a perfectly reasonable conversation about his behavior. Man, this all sounds exhausting and definitely not worth it at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I genuinely love him and would prefer not to easily give up on our relationship, though at some point I am willing to make that decision if this proves to be too much.

This isn't too much? But for now, I'm looking for some short-term ideas for how to get even better at drawing boundaries, how to deescalate conflict, stuff like that. How can I do that? Signed, Starting to breathe hard because I'm finding this feat hard when it comes to my tricky sweetheart.

Jordan Harbinger: You rhymed hard with hard, Kanye?

Nice. Yeah, you're right. Breathe hard, feat hard. Yeah. Lame, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was not my finest work.

Jordan Harbinger: It's too late now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's on

Jordan Harbinger: tape.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think when I came up with that sign-off, I was probably experiencing some [01:12:00] secondhand post-traumatic stress from this letter, and I just lost my ear for rhymes.

Jordan Harbinger: So what this listener is doing is lighting a fire in her home.

She's allowing an arsonist into her home and then going, "Hey, guys, do you have any tips on fire-proofing the house?" Literally. Yeah. Not literally, but- Figuratively literally. Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's figuratively literally. Yeah. Do you guys have a good rec on a fire-retardant blanket? Any smoke alarms you like? I just

I'm trying to figure this out. The answer could be much simpler. Yeah, I agree. Does that cover it? D- can we ... Have we done it? Should we, uh- We've done some good work here ... move on? Good luck- Yeah. ... with this guy. No,

Jordan Harbinger: so man, I need to take the deepest of breaths here because- I'll do it with

Gabriel Mizrahi: you, man. This is intense.

Okay ...

Jordan Harbinger: so I'm very sorry that you find yourself in this situation with your boyfriend. I think you can already tell how I feel about this. I know that your boyfriend would not act this way. He wouldn't be this way if some terrible stuff hadn't happened in his childhood. You didn't tell us much about that.

I don't know [01:13:00] if you really needed to. His dad obviously did a number on him. God knows what else happened in this guy's home growing up. Th- the family in general, perhaps amplified by extreme wealth. The most screwed up people I know are all rich. So you just don't turn to drugs and crime and rage at people and have these crazy mood swings and meltdowns if you're not in a lot of pain.

So My heart goes out to your boyfriend in a lot of ways, to the young kid inside him that hasn't addressed his trauma and hasn't healed. But more importantly, my heart goes out to you for the similarly formative experiences, namely the mom you had who sounds extremely challenging, these wounds that conditioned you to understand and choose and stick with a person like your boyfriend at steep cost to yourself.

I don't really have words to express how sorry I am about that as well. My impression of you based on your letter, you're a high-functioning, very self-aware, very resourceful, very driven person with some very profound wounds. And I'm impressed by the fact that you've [01:14:00] sought out these ideas and these supports to get better and achieve and survive this relationship, and that you've put them into practice.

I really am, okay? But I'm also very concerned, for obvious reasons, about some of the choices that have required you to manage things in that way, namely just the choice to be with a guy like this. So it's interesting. I find myself in a weird position. This is a letter so extreme that I feel pretty comfortable saying, "Hey, you need to seriously reevaluate your relationship with your boyfriend.

I would strongly advise you to end this." That's my take. That's my advice. We could talk about short-term ideas for how to draw boundaries and deescalate conflict, but you already seem to be doing that very well. You're actually doing it too well, candidly, okay? And I don't believe that's what you need right now.

But I also hear you saying that you understand you're taking a certain amount of risk by sticking with this guy. I'm glad to hear that you realize that, and you're in the process of assessing all that, which I hope is true. And that you genuinely love this guy and you would prefer [01:15:00] not to, as you said, easily give up on the relationship, and that at some point, if this ever got to be too much, you'd be willing to make that call.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is her capacity for this chaos is significantly higher than most people's, and not entirely in a good way.

Jordan Harbinger: Clearly. Again, probably because of the mom she had, all the challenges that came with her childhood. So her sense of what is even just acceptable or tolerable at all is wildly miscalibrated But then only she can decide what she's able and willing to put up with and what's actually too much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or what actually constitutes a serious risk.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So I don't know if telling her to break up with this guy is really all that helpful if her experience of this relationship is very different from ours. So instead, I guess I would just ask you a few questions. My main one is what is it really about this guy that's so meaningful and compelling to you?

I'm struck by the fact that the only two positive things you said about him is that he's funny and charismatic sometimes, when he's not being an absolute nightmare and/or [01:16:00] putting you on, and/or others in danger. How do you define risk? How do you define too much? Do you only want to go by your own internal barometer for this stuff or do you maybe want to factor in some external benchmarks?

I also wanted to ask you whether all this managing and diplomacy is slowly improving things or if it's just kind of minimizing the fallout. Does your boyfriend seem to be getting better in any way? Is he learning and growing and engaging with his life, with his work, with his family, or with you in a different way?

Or is he just doing the same thing over and over and the only thing that's getting better is how you pull the strings and patch things up? Which that's kind of what I'm hearing. I don't think she said one thing that suggests he's growing at all or is even interested in that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Those are exactly the right questions, Jordan.

And to those I would add one fundamental one. I guess it's another version of your first question which is what are you getting out of this situation? Yeah. By which I mean in this dynamic you've created with your boyfriend where he essentially melts down, lashes out, [01:17:00] creates messes, drives people away, undermines himself at every turn seemingly, and then you generally clean up those messes, manage his moods, calm him down, know when to engage, when to retreat, patch things up.

In that dance you guys seem to do over and over again, what does that give you? What feeling or what experience does that leave you with, and why? So when I ask you why, what I mean is, A, how did your childhood, probably this mom, whatever other early experiences you had, how did they prime you for this relationship?

I think those are important forensics to do, although really they're only half the equation. The other is why exactly does that feeling or experience continue to be so important to you now? So let me just be a little bit more specific, because I know that can be abstract. You and your boyfriend clearly have this dynamic we just described.

I imagine that managing this guy, keeping things on an even keel, calming him down, winning him over, challenging him, but not challenging him too much, all of that, smoothing things over with [01:18:00] the people like the landlord and his wife, everything that comes with this process, I imagine that feels, among other things, pretty gratifying.

But what is gratifying about it really? Is it the feeling of rupture followed by repair or what seems like repair? To be honest, I'm not totally clear on how meaningful these conversations are, but it sounds like it's a lot of chaos and a lot of instability followed by calm and like a return to baseline, and then it's like, "Okay, we're good again.

I did it." And crucially, that process happens in large part because of the way you architected it or the way you managed it.

Jordan Harbinger: Good observation. I do think that's crucial.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I can imagine that that experience might leave you feeling like, "Yes, great. I'm good at this. I'm in control. I'm needed. I succeeded.

That feels good." That's gratification, right? And maybe also relief, pride, comfort, familiarity, a sense of mastery. I'm sure it's a lot of things. Part of that package might also be another feeling or a [01:19:00] conflict. For example, you might feel very gratified and you also might feel a little ashamed, like, "Oh, I feel really good when I can calm my sweetheart down, but I also feel kind of icky that I'm chasing that feeling or that I'm chasing it from him."

Or maybe you're very proud of how you handle these moments, but also maybe there's some anger in there. Like, "I'm proud that I can handle this crisis, but I'm furious at my boyfriend for forcing me to." I think those conflicts are very meaningful. They contain very rich data about how all of this developed and most importantly, what it is bringing up for you now.

Jordan Harbinger: So what you're getting at is once she takes stock of all that stuff, it would be helpful to go, why is it so important to feel, I don't know, you name it, relieved, comforted, like she achieved something, like she kind of knows how to win at this game called unstable boyfriend. What does that give her? And then what does that leave her with?

This is a Sid and Nancy relationship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: 100%. And it's not just like, how do I know how to win at the game? It's almost like, why do I know how to play this game already? And the answers might [01:20:00] start to feel recursive. Like, I want to feel gratified because I like feeling gratified, or I want to experience this relief because the chaos is so unpleasant.

At that point, your understanding of your relationship will either become nonsensical and confusing and you will be lost in this chaos again and again, or you will get to a point where you go, "Oh, okay. I seem to be operating according to some model. I seem to be playing out some kind of script that has its own logic, its own urgency, its own mysterious needs."

And so the answer resides, I think, in understanding and acknowledging that script and then, and this is crucial, with more conscious awareness, deciding whether you still want to play it out, whether playing it out truly serves your needs, your goals, your best interests, including, by the way, your safety.

Which, by the way, I think you're also in the process of getting clear on.

Jordan Harbinger: So what you're getting at is this is ultimately about her mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, there's an easy take on her story, which is she got together with her mother and her boyfriend got [01:21:00] together with the father he didn't have.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Facts. I'm also confident that there's a lot more to it than that, but the roots of this dynamic seem fairly clear to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Pink Freud has entered the chat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's the dark side of your mom, bro. Exa-

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. Their respective traumas seem to have created the ideal sockets for their puzzle pieces to fit into.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is not news to our friend. She clearly understands that her mom did a number on her.

Jordan Harbinger: The parallels are almost one-to-one.

She was raised by an unstable giant. She's partnered now with an unstable giant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Different objects, but same eggshells probably. What she might not fully understand is why that's been hard to rewrite, let alone heal, and how that has created this extremely powerful template that she seems to have recreated with the Wheat Prince over here.

Jordan Harbinger: Or depending on how you look at it, that the Wheat Prince has created with her. They're doing this together. I'm sure most of this is unconscious. It's hard to know who's creating what or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How much of it is actually creating versus just falling [01:22:00] into something that feels oddly familiar? But what I am sure of is this is not an accident.

Jordan Harbinger: No, these two people didn't just happen to meet and fall in love and stick together with this particular form of crazy. Gabe, y- a lot of people will say like, "Oh, there's a metaphysical element to this. What are the odds these two people happened to meet?" I've met tons of crazy women. I just went out with them once and cut the date short and never called them again because I was like, "No, thank you."

These people, when these puzzle pieces fit together like we were explaining before, they feel something. They don't go, "Oh, they're crazy and this is going to be dramatic and I can't deal with that," or even, "Wow, that's exactly what I've been looking for." They go, "There's something familiar about this," right? "I like it.

It's interesting to me." And they end up in this situation because these patterns are something that they're probably unaware of.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, my quick theory a moment ago about this being gratifying, that might not be the right one or there might be more to it. Maybe there are other things this relationship is giving you.

Maybe the moments of love and connection with this guy, which I'm not fully clear on, but if they exist- Maybe those are so compelling to you that the moments of chaos and [01:23:00] pain seem worthwhile, although I have a very hard time imagining how that could be the case. But I'm sure there's a lot going on here, but this is the kind of stuff you have to dig into.

Frankly, I think you're already at least halfway there, but it's time to really take stock of this.

Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting, Gabe. Like I said, I'm very proud of her for seeking out all this insight and support and wisdom. It's kind of one of her superpowers, although another way to look at superpowers is that they are adaptations to trauma, so there's that.

But again, it's interesting the kind of analysis you're proposing, Gabe. I could be wrong about this, but my sense is that can be hard to do in, I don't know, say Al-Anon. Okay, I love Al-Anon. I'm a huge fan of what they do there. I hype it on the show all the time, but I don't know how much psychodynamic work a person can do there or how much talking and processing over a long period of time.

I think that's what therapy is for. So I, I'm very proud of you for all your self-examination and your hard work, I really am. But if you haven't had the opportunity to work with someone and it's doable for you right now, I would highly recommend it. The only way to get better, but in your case [01:24:00] especially, it's a very powerful way to get better.

I feel like we could just talk about this letter for hours. This is just

Gabriel Mizrahi: nuts. Truly, dude. We didn't even get to talk about the fact that she used to teach college classes to people in prison for life. I'm still fascinated by that detail.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I forgot about that. It- Like she said, she's clearly drawn to intelligent but troubled people, and I love that she sees that so clearly.

My general feeling about that is I don't think you need to work to get rid of that quality necessarily, although interestingly it might fade as you come to understand why that quality developed in the first place. But you do have to make sure that you're deploying that quality effectively

Gabriel Mizrahi: and responsibly that you're using it rather than it using you and ending up in potentially dangerous situations.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, and that's the process of making the unconscious conscious, I think. There's a world where she becomes an educator or a mental health practitioner or a writer and she t- turns these wounds and interests into kind of a calling. I think that would be beautiful and poetic. Or she just lets them be and doesn't feed them any more than she has to, which is also [01:25:00] progress.

But the awareness she brings to it, the agency to say, "These are the kind of experiences I want to have. This is the kind of person I want to be," that's the key. And that, like everything good in life, is a process. But I just have to say, because I can't end this segment without keeping it real, I do not understand why you would want to stay in this relationship.

It's one thing if you meet a troubled person who's demonstrably getting better and exhibits all these great qualities, lots of promise, they're on a path. It's a completely different thing if you've shacked up with a troubled person who's just creating chaos over and over again for pretty much no reason and isn't even truly working on himself.

So I'm actually worried about you. I think you deserve a lot better, and I think your sensitivity and your curiosity and interpersonal skills would be so much better spent elsewhere instead of on this candidly unstable and damaging man-child who hasn't come to terms with his trauma or his life circumstances.

I'm sorry to say this, but whether you realize it or not, this guy's just a drain on your life. He might be a victim to some degree, but he's [01:26:00] 42 years old. He just does not really have an excuse for how reckless and hurtful he's being to you, to himself, to everyone he comes across.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Yes. Well said, Jordan.

Thank you for keeping it real. I also just want to point out that her subjective experience of this relationship might be that it's not too much for me to handle, or the risk really is not that high, I'm okay. But what would happen if the landlord evicted both of them and then she has an eviction on her record because he went ham on the wife and they don't want that person on their property, understandably, and she stays with him or she breaks up with him, but now they, she has an eviction on her record because she was associated with a person like this?

This is not just about the emotional chaos, which is significant. There are also some very real practical risks that I don't know if she's fully appreciating.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. That said, this letter was fire, and that was a ride.

Producer Jase Sanderson: This is a tasty burger.

Jordan Harbinger: So I hope that gives you some new angles, friend. Please stay safe.

Take good care of [01:27:00] yourself. We're sending you a big hug, and we're wishing you all the best. A few months ago, we mentioned a quote in our newsletter that I love: "It's okay to have beliefs, just don't believe in them." And I can't say I live by that 100%, but of course I try to. I at least try not to believe too hard, the whole strong ideas loosely held concept.

We've been walking an interesting line today, in all the letters I suppose, between embracing people's beliefs and also challenging them to see beyond them, to make room for other helpful ones, to develop a clearer relationship with them, or to at least not let the things they do believe in appropriately to get in the way of other important experiences, learning, growing, collaborating with good people.

And I feel like that's one of our central tasks in life. That's the dance. So I'm sure we'll be coming back to this theme many more times over the years. It's a very rich topic, so many ways to heal and grow in this life, and so many candy bars to eat. Go back and check out our episodes with Javier Leiva on scams and the psychology of scams, and our Skeptical Sunday on [01:28:00] psychic detectives, if you haven't heard those yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build something similar for yourself in our Six Minute Networking course. The course is free. There's no catch. There's no shenanigans. It's not schmoozy.

You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Again, sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please do share it with [01:29:00] somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

What if the safest way to send a secret is something anyone can hear but no one can trace? You're about to hear a preview where former CIA officer Andrew Bustamante pulls back the curtain on a hidden world where global conflicts are quietly connected.

JHS Trailer: There's actually 161 active conflicts around the world right now, where bullets are being fired and explosions are going off.

When you look at each of those conflicts, it's not just one group against another group in the same country or even across a state boundary. It's multiple countries engaged in supporting one side or another side, proxy conflicts. Right now in the United States, we're focused on Israel, we're focused on Ukraine, and Afghanistan, and Russia.

And then sometimes we're focused on something else. When people think World War III, the common misconception is that a nuclear weapon must be [01:30:00] used. If you're waiting for a nuclear weapon to go off, that's not going to be World War III. It's a whole different evolving landscape, and that's what we need to understand.

And I don't think our chances of a nuclear weapon going off are getting less each year. I actually think they're getting to be more each year, but I don't know why people think it's going to look like a thermonuclear weapon being launched from a missile silo and going off in the middle of a First World country.

That's not what it's going to look like. Israel's MO is to do incredibly brazen acts of violence and take public credit for it, and then air footage and everything else, because they know that there's a fear-mongering element that deters its enemies even further. Whereas China goes in and just breaks everything, and they don't really care if they get caught, and Russia doesn't want to get caught.

The United States also doesn't want to get caught, which is why the United States denies everything. It seems to me like we have more indicators that we are in a world war rather than we are not in a world war. To hear more on

Jordan Harbinger: why Cold War tech still outsmarts modern surveillance and why Andrew Bustamante believes World War III may already be happening, check out [01:31:00] episode 1220 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.