1287: Conscience Frayed by Impossible Choice Made | Feedback Friday

1287: Conscience Frayed by Impossible Choice Made | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the straight razor helping me shave this bushy beard of life drama with as little irritation and ingrown hair as possible, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Economic hitmen, gold smugglers, Russian spies, hostage negotiators. This week we had my friend Derek Coburn about the financial aspect of retirement, which sounds boring, I know, but was actually quite an enlightening and super important practical conversation about how we can best take care of ourselves as we age, so we don't end up working until we die.

And we also had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Passport Bros. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play silly soundbites that probably won't land us in a copyright [00:01:00] lawsuit, and compare Gabe to bespoke personal grooming tools.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We do do that. You, of course, are a manscaping clipper.

I hope you know that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that's right. Purchase using one of our sponsor codes. Of course, on that one that you have lying around somewhere in a drawer, tidies up the other regions, sometimes leaves a little brazen little nick, but always gets the job done.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Gross but accurate

Jordan Harbinger: as always.

We've got some fun ones and some doozies.

Let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 38 and I have a very fulfilling career and a very fulfilling marriage. We're both professionals and both educated, and as soon as we had our children, two of them, we set up savings account for each of them, a general trust fund and a college fund.

So we are absolutely in a position to welcome more children. Meanwhile, all of my siblings have special needs children. My brother has a special needs son whose needs are so great that he lives in a special home with round the clock staff to care for him. My sister has three special needs children, one with autism and two with cognitive delays.

My cousin's children [00:02:00] also have different disabilities.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That is very intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a lot of special needs in one family.

No,

Jordan Harbinger: definitely.

Yeah. I wonder how that happened. I mean, is that genetic? Is it just random luck? I mean, has it just come down to chance? I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I accept them and I do not doubt my siblings genuine love for them.

But witnessing the effort that goes into caring for high knee children looks very distressing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, I can imagine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The doctors told me that due to my advanced maternal age, I'm at greater risk for abnormalities and complications. That pregnancy is a young woman's game, and I agree. So when I recently became pregnant again, I did genetic screening to ensure the testable disorders could be screened out.

Unfortunately, the company told me there was a delay in getting the results. By the time the results would be ready, I would be past the allowable timeframe for abortion. I took the abortion pill and only hours later I received the results. Perfectly healthy with absolutely no risk.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez, God, that's brutal.

I am so sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I [00:03:00] now feel unbearable guilt and anger at myself. I tried to get some kind of antidote or reversal, and then I begged God and prayed for my baby to make it. I did not get any antidote as there was no evidence to suggest anything that might help according to the doctor I saw in the emergency room.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a scene that must have been.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She went to the ER.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Regretting it, begging them to find a way to reverse it. That's so intense.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I tried taking progesterone, but it was too late. I prayed for Jesus to forgive me and to tell my baby I loved him and for forgiveness for my child. This experience weighs heavily on my mind and my heart.

I'm racked with guilt and regret and so upset. I didn't just wait for the perfect results. I'm still praying to Jesus every day for forgiveness for my mortal mistake. And I want the message to go out about how we need to help women recognize the gift of life.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh. Interesting. Well, I hear you that you, you're very passionate about that.

Let's try and focus on the advice and we'll see about the message.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm so upset with [00:04:00] myself for delaying beginning my family, but I just know that I want a healthy child and body and mind with a comparable intellect. My husband and me as a Christian. This is something I'm struggling with. It feels blasphemous to even think of such things, and I can't discuss it with my inner circle or my community as this subject is considered taboo.

I still believe in Christ. I love my faith, and these thoughts in recent event are really affecting me. Do you think I should try again, forego genetic testing and just be okay with whatever the outcome is? Or do you think I should do genetic testing again to rule out abnormalities? Signed coming undone and wrestling a ton after tragically jumping the gun.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a letter. Gabe tried to get us a ton of hate mail or what's going on here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thought we would guide the dooze cruise right into choppy waters from the jump, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is a category five hurricane, but okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. A moral maelstrom, I would say.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, for

Gabriel Mizrahi: sure.

Jordan Harbinger: So once again, I'm very sorry things played out this way.

This is [00:05:00] obviously unfortunate and super sad. I can hear how heavily it's weighing on you to have terminated a pregnancy. You didn't need to terminate because you didn't have the information you needed in time. That is super upsetting. There's no way around it. I can also see that it's causing a lot of tension with your religious beliefs, your community.

That's a whole other layer of pain, and I'm just sorry for all of it. I understand totally why you freaked out here. It's very clear that watching your siblings raise multiple special needs children has been hugely impactful for you. It's like you said, it's very distressing. It's not that their kids aren't remarkable in their own way.

It's that your siblings aren't up to the challenge. It's just objectively a lot to handle. Any parent of a special needs child will tell you that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and if there's a higher incidence of disorders in your family, then of course you would want to know that in advance.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course, both for your end, your husband's sake, and for the sake of any potential child born with a serious disability.

Me personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, there's a reason that they do genetic screening in the first place. I [00:06:00] recognize other people do have a problem with that. Some people forego these tests altogether because they would never terminate a pregnancy even if the child had a serious disability.

That's up to them. I think that raises some very big moral questions, but it's fine. It's their choice. I just want to be open about my biases here. Now, I hate that the results were delayed. I can't. How does that happen?

Gabriel Mizrahi: How did that happen? I've never heard of that happening.

Jordan Harbinger: Same. I mean, it's not something I'd normally pay attention to, but it seems just obviously unconscionable to me, like people's lives and futures hanging the balance and you're just going to fumble the results.

LabCorp or whatever. Come on, Kaiser Permanente. Sorry. We can't tell you if your child is going to have to live in a special facility with round the clock care because, well, Phil got a gnarly cold last week and he is a little bit behind on processing those samples. How is this okay at all and how does this happen?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like the idea that there's just one guy at LabCorp responsible for like all the amniocentesis tests in their state.

Jordan Harbinger: We'll totally get to the results that will determine the quality of the rest of you and your child's life. But we, uh, we got, [00:07:00] it's got to be on Monday, man. I came in a little bit late.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, next, next week is better for us.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, just, you know, it's just oversight. Hit the alarm. I overslept a little bit, hit some traffic. I mean, it's just crazy to me that this can happen and that's really what kicked off this chain of events. It's a big reason you're in this position now, and I'm angry about that.

It sucks. But the fact that you panicked that you made this call with incomplete information, hoping to avoid something you felt would be much more difficult, I totally appreciate why you did that. I'm guessing your logic was basically, look, I might be wrong about this. I don't have all the information in the timeframe I need it, but if I'm right, if this baby does turn out to have a serious disability, then I'd rather roll the dice.

That's not how these decisions should be made, of course, but that's how this situation played out. So to then discover that the fetus was fine, it's just tragic and super upsetting for sure. But to then punish yourself for making that decision after the fact. I am not so sure that that's fair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm with you on that.

Or even entirely accurate and honest. What I mean is you're the same person you were when you made [00:08:00] that call. I understand that somebody can come to regret something they did, of course. But to make a call like that precisely because you don't have the information. And then turn around and berate yourself and feel like you've mortally sinned or whatever when you do have the information.

Now, I'm not sure that's actually a fair thing to do.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a really good point. She's holding herself to a standard now that she couldn't have held herself to back then.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly

Jordan Harbinger: right.

So not only did making this decision, and again, I think it was an understandable decision, if not in a totally legitimate one.

Not only did that mean agreeing to live with the consequences, including the feelings that might arise if she got the results and they, they turned out to be okay. It also meant not judging herself as if she had access to that information at both points in time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, well put, it's basically moral time traveling.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't it?

Jordan Harbinger: Moral time traveling? That's what it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She wasn't dealing with facts at the time. She was dealing with probabilities. Those are two very different equations.

Jordan Harbinger: An interesting thought experiment would be if the results had come back saying there was a problem, would you be beating [00:09:00] yourself up for this?

And I'm guessing not at all. It's only because they came back normal. So that should tell you that you can't be making this moral judgment based on the actual results, but on the statistics and the larger principle of not wanting to bring a child with severe challenges into the world. Now whether that is in fact the right choice, that's a separate matter.

It's maybe a little bit of a crap analogy, Gabriel, but it reminds me of Annie Duke. There's an episode where Annie Duke, the poker player, talks about making decisions. You're not supposed to do this thing called resulting, and it's where you go, I did all this crazy stuff and played really wrong, but then I won the hand.

So it must've been the right process, and you don't do the reverse either. You don't go, oh, I lost the hand, but I did everything right according to math, so I did something wrong. It's like, no, you did everything right and then luck wasn't on your side in the hand. The process is more important because if you tell yourself that every time you win, you did the right thing, you're just going to be doing random, bad, illogical things all the [00:10:00] time in poker and not win as much.

That's just not how you, you don't, you don't make decisions based on the results because there's an element that you can't control,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and the inverse is equally true. That's really interesting. That is a really interesting analogy.

Jordan Harbinger: Whether this whole thing was in fact the right choice as a separate matter.

Like I said, honestly, I don't know if it's my place to tell you that. I can imagine good arguments on both sides. But also I, I can't help but notice that's not what you're writing in about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that's kind of interesting too. She's asking, should I try again and do the test or should I not do the test?

But the real question to me is, is this guilt, is this regret fully warranted? And what do they say about my true beliefs here and how those beliefs square with my stated beliefs?

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I feel like that tension is what she's really wrestling with more than the question of, you know. Should I do an amniocentesis?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a harder question to answer. Like you said, we have our own beliefs, our own biases. She has hers, she's allowed to hold whatever values and positions she holds. I don't think we're really interested in convincing her of our point of view. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Nah, not especially, although I have some questions

Gabriel Mizrahi: other [00:11:00] than, you know, making room for different perspectives and feelings at the same time.

I think the most important part of her letter is when she said that she wants a healthy child. She wants a child who operates at the level that she and her husband do. However you feel about special needs children. I think that's a fair thing to want.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. Both for themselves and for the child. I think that's important to remember,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

This is an entirely selfish children with special needs. I mean, it depends clearly on the particular needs and the family you're born into and all of that. But they objectively have a harder go of it than typical kids. So again, not a crazy thing to want, but that seems to be coming up against the positions of her faith.

Or at least how she understands them and subscribes to them.

Jordan Harbinger: Blasphemous, she called it. Quite a word.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I'm sure that speaks to how powerful a lot of the ideas of a religion are and perhaps how non-negotiable they are or they are to her. So to be extremely logical about this for a moment, once you run into this tension, there are only a couple moves, right?

Either she did do something wrong and her beliefs are right, and she [00:12:00] violated some moral principle. She needs to repent, and all the guilt and the remorse are appropriate. Although my understanding, and I am not an expert, but my understanding is that Christianity, like most religions, also has a way of working through all of that.

There's forgiveness, there's repentance, there's coming to a new understanding. So there's that. Or option two, she didn't do something wrong or what she did falls into perhaps a gray area where it doesn't neatly fall into right or wrong. And by the way, that might be part of what is creating her anxiety because it is ambiguous.

Maybe that's the case and she needs to revisit some of her beliefs and assumptions.

Jordan Harbinger: Either her faith is correct or her faith isn't correct.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds to me like she's saying My faith is correct and I did something terrible, which again, she's allowed to hold that view. My perspective though is more, it's really unfortunate that you had to make that call without the information you needed, but like Jordan, I understand your reasons given your family, and you might get further trying to appreciate your reasons for doing what you did at the time.

Then judging and berating [00:13:00] yourself after the fact.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that, but to be fair, you're shifting the question to some degree.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I recognize that she might say, well, I didn't realize that terminating the pregnancy was wrong no matter what. So my reasons really don't matter. But I guess what I'm getting at is, is deciding whether this was ethical by reference only to her religion.

Is that also short circuiting a really important process, which is making room for a mother her who didn't want to bring a child with severe challenges into this world and panicked and made a call that made sense to her at the time. My sense is probably yes, that is going on.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not that her faith is irrelevant.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No,

Jordan Harbinger: but she's centering what her faith would say and it's kind of eclipsing what she was dealing with, which maybe that's what her faith would tell her to do, but I'm with you. I think we lose something crucial in that process.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also find it really interesting that she can't discuss this. Yeah. Or she doesn't feel she can discuss this with her close friends, with people in her community.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's taboo, which sort of is, seems to code for. They'll judge me and my reputation will suffer if we talk [00:14:00] about this. I don't know. That's sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She even said that. It feels off limits to even think about it. The moment, there are things that are off limits just to talk about, let alone think about. I don't know man.

I just, I find that suspect and a little concerning.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean you're censoring yourself. You can't even think about this thing that was a private choice. I mean, Gabriel, I'm not religious and I'm not saying all religions do this, but it sort of reminds me of North Korea like asking people things and they were just like, I don't even think about traveling because it's not allowed and it's never going to happen.

So I don't think about it. And it's like, okay, but what if you could go anywhere? And they're just like, Mount Ptu where I can, and it's like, no, no, no, really. And then I remember saying like, what about Africa? And you could see the animals and she just went Africa and just like stared off into the distance.

And this really like, it just never occurred to her to think that you could leave North Korea to like do anything ever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, our friend here is writing into us and she is being very open about this. So clearly she is allowing herself to talk and process some of this, which I'm very happy about. [00:15:00] Also to be clear, I'm not saying that, you know, anything goes and there's no morality whatsoever, and in terminating the pregnancy didn't matter.

It matters. But if you can't talk to your own community about something really difficult, something very human, and also something your system is hopefully designed to help you make sense of. Then what does that say about the system?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a really fair question and look, to be fair, we don't know if that's what her community actually feels or if that's what she assumes about them.

She might be so scared and ashamed, she's assuming they'd find it taboo. But I also get the sense that she belongs to a pretty orthodox community. And we all know orthodoxy doesn't always allow for truly open conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Something else I would explore, again, zero shade on your faith or your community, but here is one value that I would explicitly encourage you to embrace.

Being able to acknowledge difficult, morally complex stuff without the fear of judgment. We deserve that.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So here too, there's an interesting tension, not just between her private beliefs and her religious beliefs, but between her needs and the values or perceived values of her community.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:00] Yeah.

Navigating those tensions and trying to understand them and being open to a new relationship with all of it. That's what I think this letter is actually about.

Jordan Harbinger: And maybe the real question, dare I say, the real opportunity that this difficult experience might have brought into our life. But to be practical here, we can't tell you whether to try for a baby again.

Whether to do the testing and be okay with whatever happens or do the testing and consider terminating. If there were any abnormalities, I think you could tell what I would do. I believe testing exists for a very good reason. That's obviously up to you and your husband. It will shock no one to say that.

I'm not religious. I think everybody knows that. I just try to be fair to everyone on this. But again, you know when people write it and they're like, well, you're biased. Yes, I'm biased. I'm not religious. That's so, I mean, yes, but I'm not prejudiced against y'all. I just, I, we have to, it's hard for us to deal with these.

Gabe, I don't know. For me, these are always hard because I'm like. Well, the answer is obviously this. Oh, but then you believe that you're doing something against God and going to hell if you do that thing that I just advise you to do, so maybe don't jump in with [00:17:00] both feet. I don't know. It's always tough for me.

What I can say is if you decide to do the testing, make sure you're getting good healthcare, you get the results and the timeframe you need them, and if you can't, maybe you go somewhere that you can or you do redundant testing and just don't put yourself in this situation again, nobody deserves that.

Honestly, I'm more angry at the hospital or or the doctor or whatever than than anyone else in this story. If you do, do the testing, get clear with yourself and with your husband about what your values are around terminating or keeping a child, and have the conviction to stand by that decision. Either way.

I think a lot of the pain you're in, it's born from these tensions we've been talking about and by some confusion around these principles and the process you're in to make sense of them. Resolve those things. I think you'll find the clarity and peace you're looking for. Again, I'm so sorry you went through this.

My heart goes out to you. I don't think you're a monster. I don't think Jesus or your religion are turning their back on you, if that's fair for me to say. I'm totally unqualified to say that, but I, whatever. Look, I get you. That's what I'm saying, and the [00:18:00] only realistic option at this point is to learn from this experience.

Try to understand what it's showing you, and then incorporate that into your values and your choices going forward.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if you're really struggling to work through this pain, then of course I would recommend you find somebody to talk to about this. Obviously, I would love for that to be a therapist, given the subject matter, pretty heavy, pretty complicated.

Ideally, one who is not directly in your community, given the topic I, I think you would benefit from somebody who is maybe more impartial. But this is not something anybody should have to go through alone, and there might be some really important talking and processing that has to happen to get through this period.

Okay? So if you need some support to arrive at a better place and make sense of this, I, I really do hope you find it.

Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely. Sending you and your husband a big hug and wishing you all the best. Speaking of blasphemy, Jesus might have cast the money lenders out of the temple, but he's also casting some amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show now. Back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I just listened to your recent interview with Scott Galloway and it really hit home for me. I'm a mom of boys who have struggled the last few years and it breaks my heart. From my own experience.

I've observed that young men are often dismissed when they struggle socially or emotionally and are unfairly treated and left out. Nobody is stepping up for these young men, and as parents, there's nowhere to turn.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Still getting a lot of great responses to that one. That was episode 1250. By the way,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am particularly worried about one of my sons, who's 19.

[00:22:00] Both my husband and I have doctorates in science and I've tried to provide every opportunity for my son that I possibly could. He struggled from a young age having been diagnosed with A DHD, but tested remarkably high on iq. He has a level of understanding of difficult concepts and science that is light years beyond what my husband and I have, but his social and scholastic development have been a train wreck.

He got a perfect score on college entrance exams, but struggled to complete homework and missed a lot of school due to health problems and COVID. He would teach himself the material and do very well on exams, but most of the time never do his homework and his grades reflected that he failed to connect socially and was very isolated and disengaged from school.

The heartbreaking part is that he's meant to be at some high-end academic institution in research and development. I don't just say that as his mom, I mean it as a scientist. He's constantly teaching himself high level engineering, building complex contraptions in the garage, contacting authors of obscure [00:23:00] papers to get insight and coming up with brilliant ideas to improve various things.

When he was in middle school, he designed a science experiment that he conducted at the edge of space with a weather balloon and wasn't even considered for a prize at the science fair. He taught himself ham radio, got a license from the FAA and used fellow ham radio enthusiasts to help him follow and retrieve his weather balloon after the experiment in another state.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so cool. What a kid. This is amazing. This kid sounds, he sounds a little bit like me, but like 10 times smarter. I'm super impressed by this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The science competitions were run by women who prior to giving any awards, announced that girls were going to be supported in the fair and the winners were all girls with social experiments.

I'm not against girls in science. I applaud every opportunity that girls are given to enter this remarkable field, but I also hate that it has pushed talented boys out. I saw how this approach left my son and other young men devastated. Despite our encouragement, my son never entered another one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:00] Okay.

Yeah, I don't blame him. Why bother? Look, this is, I don't want to go on a huge rant here. I don't apply for podcast awards either for, let's say, similar reasons. I get the intention, but look at the results. I mean, why? Yes, why bother? I don't blame him one bit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And when he applied to college, not even one accepted him.

He's hung up all the rejection letters around his room.

Jordan Harbinger: That is really sad. Just picturing this incredibly gifted boy getting mistreated and looked over by his, this conventional system. I mean, especially the homework part. It's like when I was in college you didn't even do that. You just did. You just took the exam.

So it's like what's important here? I don't know. Make up your mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like the opening of a movie about some misunderstood genius before he finds his groove and then, you know, does his best work.

Jordan Harbinger: Little Good Will Hunting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. John Nash or something.

Jordan Harbinger: Like everyone underestimated him and then he cured, I don't know, multiple sclerosis or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. Either that or it's the prologue to a Marvel movie because this is kind of how you get the Green Goblin folks. [00:25:00]

JHS Trailer: I'm something of a scientist myself.

Jordan Harbinger: It's quite the child to have, I'm rooting for him super hard right now. I, I was also the guy who well forgot slash didn't bother to turn in my homework and then would do well on exams.

And my teachers were like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, does it matter if I do it if I understand it? And they're just like, yes. And then I got to co they were like, this is how the real world works. And then I got to college and they were like, homework, no, we don't care if you do

Gabriel Mizrahi: it.

That is not how the real world works.

This is not the real world.

Jordan Harbinger: I look back and I'm like, oh, I see you. Teachers just didn't understand at all how the real world works. No, that was not, none of that was true. None of it zero or

Gabriel Mizrahi: didn't understand me.

Jordan Harbinger: That too. But like none of the things my teachers said were going to happen in the real world happened at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, add to all this, the dissolution of activities for young men that are not sports. And you have a generation of isolated boys on computers. My son has always struggled socially. I recently heard an interview with the man with the highest iq and it reminded me so much of my son, the way he spoke and how he struggled as a young man.

What advice do you have for a [00:26:00] mom who's desperate to not see a young man's potential be wasted? How do I help him to not give up and languish in social isolation and loneliness? Signed? Finding the right tack to help my son find his way back when he is on his own track.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, really good questions. First of all, very sorry.

Your son has struggled academically, socially, that it's been hard for him to find his place in the system that we have, despite his incredible talents. It's just really tough. And I'm sorry for you as his mom having to watch him go through all this. I can only imagine how painful that must be. I'm a parent.

I know all we want for our kids is to see them flourish and have fun, and connect and find what they're great at and succeed. So your son's journey must bring up a lot for you, especially as a scientist who knows how gifted he is, and my heart goes out to you for that. Now, here's the good news. Your son is 19.

He's got so much life ahead of him. There's so much time to help him find his path, that it's not too late for this kid. Okay? And he has a mother who wants to help him succeed, who understands his struggles and the larger struggles of men in this [00:27:00] generation who's a scientist herself and appreciates his gifts.

I think that's what's going to make all the difference. So my first thought here is a general one, which is your son is clearly unique. He's hyper developed in certain areas like engineering. He struggles in others like socializing. That's obviously very challenging. The conventional world is largely not set up to nurture the gifts of a child like your son.

It's probably not even set up to fully recognize those gifts. So it's not entirely personal. I think it's largely structural and it's one big reason a lot of young people with exceptional abilities, men especially, it's why they find themselves floating and checked out and alienated. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for him, that there aren't institutions and companies and communities that would benefit from his talent, that there aren't resources and opportunities for a mind like his, whether that's certain types of schools or programs for neuro divergent people without traditional degrees or communities that offer alternative educations, whatever it is, but it's going to take some extra work to find those programs to help your son [00:28:00] take advantage of those programs.

It won't always be easy, especially if he struggles to connect with people, but it is possible, we hear about it all the time. Second. I wonder if your son would benefit from being evaluated again. You said he was diagnosed with A DHD. He tested remarkably high on iq. You said he struggles to connect socially.

He's isolated, he's disengaged. There are probably a lot of explanations for that, including his baseline personality, but while Gabe was reading the letter, I can't be the only one who is going, huh. Okay. These do sound a little bit like the symptoms of autism, which by the way is very compatible with A DHD.

In fact, I think that when they overlap so-called odd, DHD, that can include things like executive dysfunction, social challenges, intense interests, all of which your son does seem to have. I not in a place to diagnose anybody, of course, but I would strongly consider having him evaluated by a psychologist.

The benefit of having him evaluated is not to find a label you can slap on his symptoms and call it a day. It would be to have the best possible model for understanding your [00:29:00] son. Talk with an expert about what he needs, and then use that label if it exists to advocate for him, create opportunities for him, support him, motivate him, know how to respond to him when he struggles, all of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally agree. Jordan, the other person who might be helpful for your son, I guess I'm just going to fall in the sword all day. Today is a therapist. So many of the things you shared with us from the science fair to the not getting into college, to the ongoing social alienation, the loneliness, those are all traumas.

They would be traumas for anyone, but they're unique traumas for a neurodivergent child. And it would just be so great if he could talk to somebody, ideally somebody who specializes in neurodivergent patients, so he could work through that and have someone else in his corner who can help him learn to understand himself and meet adversity and hopefully work with his mind and the world in a new way.

Jordan Harbinger: That's another reason the diagnosis could be useful, because if he is on the spectrum, that's crucial for a therapist to know, and it might also help you find the best modalities for him. I hear CBT and other behavioral therapies can be quite effective [00:30:00] for autism, for example.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think it could be the best way to help your son not give up in languish and loneliness as you put it, there's a lot of history there.

There's a lot that is not under your control. Yes, you can support your son, you can encourage him, you can cheer him on, you can include him in plans, you can get him out of the house and all of that, and you should, but at 19 years old, he's going to have to learn how to develop the parts of his personality necessary to build relationships for himself, even to decide if this isolation is something he recognizes as a problem and wants to work on.

That is a bigger project than just, you know, make sure you get this person's phone number and text them later, set up a plan or whatever. This is something he'll probably need to work on over a period of time in some kind of therapy or some kind of program.

Jordan Harbinger: That said, it might be worth looking for other people like your son, communities.

You guys can tap into online and person Reddit, discord through a therapist, through a parent's network. I would just start researching and asking around, see if there are any places or groups where highly gifted people like your son gather. Is there an engineer club for Neurodivergent kids? [00:31:00] Is there, I don't know, a coding bootcamp for adults without degrees, an open source coding engineering project out there, a tech company or a university in your area looking for some help if he meets a friend or two in one of those places.

What hobbies or groups are they involved in? How can you encourage that relationship? I was so happy when you said that he's contacting authors of obscure papers to get insight. That's just such a great sign. That means that he does have it in him to connect with people when he's lit up about a subject.

And honestly, those emails or phone calls, the relationships, he could build that way. Those could be so much more valuable to your son than a college degree. Frankly, I have to assume that these people love that a 19-year-old genius is reaching out to them. And if your son could cultivate those relationships, if he, I don't know, offers his time or his expertise or asks them for advice, those connections could open a lot of doors for him.

So if I were you, I would really encourage your son to engage with those people and those places. I know he struggles to connect, so you might have to do a little bit more work to get him started, but [00:32:00] this could be a game changer and he is already doing it, but he might not realize the full potential of connecting with these folks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just thinking about what you said, Jordan, how the conventional system isn't set up for people like her son. And I wonder if maybe the best thing she could do is start helping him understand his struggles through that lens. So like if he ever tries to apply to something again and he gets rejected, maybe she could say, oh man, they didn't take you.

That sucks. I'm sorry. I'm angry. I'm bummed. But you know what? That just means they're not your people. When you're ready, you know, let's go find the people who are your people. Or if he gets turned down from a group or a job, she could say, I know this hurts. I'm so sorry, but listen, this does not mean it's game over.

It doesn't mean that you're not smart or talented or interesting. This is just one place, so let's keep going. Let's try another.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that little reframe there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A reframe, but also not entirely a reframe, right? It might really help her son to acknowledge the reality that he will struggle more than the average person to fit in sometimes, because he is unique.

That the meaning he makes of those setbacks and the conclusions that he draws about his [00:33:00] self-worth and his prospects, those are under his control.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. There's a kind of delusional reframing that can tip over into toxic positivity or denial, and then there's this kind of reframing where it's like, okay, we're not denying the facts, but we are staying open to other more helpful interpretations.

More hopeful ones.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly right.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, that's super important for all kids to talk to them in this way. We talk about resilience quite a bit on this show, and what I've come to appreciate about resilience is that it's not about not feeling defeated or injured or disillusioned or hopeless. It's about being able to feel those things but not be defined by them.

And that's what language like this helps you do. Ultimately that might be the best way to support your son, to help him understand that he doesn't fit the mold. There's still a great path available to him, but he's going to have to work for it. The kid who launches a a fricking weather balloon into the stratosphere in middle school.

This person is not designed for a normal path. Okay? Your son might be a guy who apprentices with a famous scientist or invents some cool product or codes apps, or teaches his other neuro [00:34:00] divergent people one day,

Gabriel Mizrahi: or who knows, maybe with the right support. He does learn to succeed in more conventional environments, but with this very unique personality.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, also possible. Your son is far too gifted to be a total failure. He doesn't see himself that way, but you can, you can model for him the belief that the world is still open to him. So my advice is stay close to him, but don't smother him. Encourage him to keep playing, keep contributing. Get that assessment.

Maybe a therapist. Keep showing him that curiosity, effort, passion, those matter more than prestige or conformity. You sound like an awesome mom. He's lucky to have you looking out for him, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise.

Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're debating whether to leave your addicted spouse when you don't believe in divorce, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. You know what? [00:35:00] Every future Marvel villain needs a mattress, a living will, and discounted psychotherapy. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy, and Bombas is leading that charge in my house.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, in March of 2025, I started a new job at a small IT firm with two other branches both located out of state.

The workload was manageable and the pay was decent then seemingly out of nowhere, the owner brought my branch into a meeting and informed us that we were being sold to another company, citing the difficulty of managing our branch from such a distance. This caught almost everyone by surprise. The same day we met the new owner and were asked to sign employment paperwork immediately.

This included [00:38:00] a sign-on bonus that would need to be repaid if we voluntarily quit or were terminated for cause. I felt pressured and blindsided, but I signed the paperwork, as did my colleagues. All of this occurred just two days before we officially transitioned to the new company. The transition itself has been rocky.

It feels as though neither company was fully prepared for the transfer. This has caused several rifts with our clients, significantly increased workloads, and led to a general sense of distrust toward the new company. For example, I had a week of PTO scheduled over the holidays. Prior to the merger, the old company paid out our PTO balances, and under the new company we were given only three days of PTO to last.

From October through December, I got sick and had to use two of those three days, leaving me with a choice of either missing my family's Christmas gathering or attending without pay. While I understand that transitioning to a new company is never easy, the new company's policies and culture feel impractical and incompatible with the established [00:39:00] culture at our branch.

My colleagues at this branch are equally frustrated while I'm relatively new. They've worked together for five years and have already survived transitions through three different companies. Our branch has a group of well-rounded skills. We work exceptionally well together, and we could realistically operate as our own entity.

I've heard growing concerns around the office and morale does not seem particularly high. This led me to consider the idea of purchasing the branch as a group and operating it as an employee owned entity. The challenge is that none of us have experience with something like this, and I'm unsure how to even bring the idea up to my colleagues or where to begin.

We have a solid, loyal client base that has stayed with us through two company transitions, and their biggest complaint has consistently been having to work with technicians located in other states. Some clients have even threatened to leave if they were unable to continue working directly with our branch.

Jordan Harbinger: What an endorsement of you guys?

Gabriel Mizrahi: How would you recommend bringing this idea up with my colleagues or [00:40:00] gauging their interest in such an arrangement? Is this something that seems worth pursuing? Signed leading the charge to go all in and enlarge.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that's kind of exciting. Love me a little entrepreneurship, a little palace intrigue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Little Game of Thrones with ethernet

Jordan Harbinger: cables.

Totally. Yes, exactly.

First of all, I'm sorry to hear the transition phase has been so rocky that it's created all these problems for you and for the team. It sounds to me like the owners aren't exactly bad people. They're not being malicious or anything.

They're just moving really quickly and their way of doing things is at odds with the culture of your branch. This happens all the time. That said, I totally understand your frustration. It sounds like you're not the only one, and probably these people aren't being very thoughtful about how these policies affect everyone, employees as well as clients.

So I've got to say your idea to purchase the branch and start this new employee owned entity. That's pretty interesting. I love that you're thinking beyond the question of how do I survive this job? And you're wondering, is there a better structure here? Is there an opportunity here that really is an entrepreneur's mindset, and I love it.

You sound resourceful, [00:41:00] creative driven. Those are awesome, qualit. Now, candidly, I know nothing about employee owned entities or how you create one, especially by buying one branch of a multi-branch company that just bought your branch. I don't know. I'm guessing that's going to be complicated. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's a lot of moving pieces here.

The new owners, your colleagues, your clients, and you. It's just going to take some top shelf strategery and execution to pull this off. There are also a lot of unknowns. Which of your colleagues wants ownership over, you know, stability and a paycheck? Who's willing to take on the legal and fiduciary responsibility with you?

And who knows whether the current owner would even entertain a sale? How's your bonus going to work? How do policies get determined? How's the transition going to look for that too? And perhaps most importantly, how many clients would stick with you guys? Like do they have long-term contracts with the company?

Would they feel confident following you guys as sort of a UpStarter kind of thing? How is the current owner going to respond to losing them? Is he going to sue you guys for poaching all the clients? All these questions need to get answered. I'm not saying don't do it. I think it's really interesting. I'm just [00:42:00] saying take some time to really think about what buying this branch really means.

What's going to determine success here? What would you need to go right in order to make this work? So my first thought for you is you need to become a true student of this idea. I would spend time researching employee owned structures, eops, co-ops, partnerships. I would do some digging into whether your clients are under contracts with the parent company.

Obviously be subtle, maybe even ask a client casually if you have that kind of relationship, that seems like a very important piece of information. I would study your employment agreement. You could also drop it into chat, GPT, tell it your loose plan. Ask it to tell you all the potential obstacles. And I would also take the temperature with the new owners, see if they have any desire to divest or consolidate, if they could be convinced to do so.

That'll be the hardest one to suss out without giving away your idea. So I would be careful with that. Maybe you can gather some intel. Basically you need to get smart about this structure and you need to stress test the fantasy. 'cause it's all fun and games until you realize that you're going to be dealing with payroll, anxiety, legal, [00:43:00] compliance, keeping clients happy, sales targets, managing people, all of that.

So before you breathe the word about this to anybody, you really want to know what you're going to be getting into and getting tactical.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree. And as for bringing this up with your colleagues, I would maybe get together with them, or at least the ones you're close with and you trust. Maybe you start one-on-one with a couple of the most trusted colleagues before you go to the rest of the group.

And by the way, I would probably do this outside the office, just so no, nobody overhears you talking about this. Like one of those ministers in the Game of Thrones who's like hovering around the corner and happens to overhear the plans for the coup against the king. And I would very casually be like, so you know, I've been thinking about this whole transition.

Obviously it's been kind of rocky. I think we all know that. I also keep thinking about, you know, how strong our team is, how loyal our clients are. And the other night I was just like, what if we had our own branch? You know, like, this sounds so self-conscious now that I'm saying it, but it's like, you know what?

If we were independent, wouldn't that be cool? Something like that. That was a little heavy handed, but I think you know where I'm going with this. And just see how they respond. If they get that [00:44:00] twinkle in their eye, if they're like, oh, interesting. Tell me more. Yeah, that is kind of interesting. I would love to be my own boss or whatever.

And they ask a bunch of good follow-up questions. Then maybe you explore it some more and that would be a good sign that they would be helpful partners to you. If they shut you down or they change the subject or they poke a hundred holes in your idea from the jump, or they just don't seem very interested at all, then you probably have your answer.

Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe some get excited and some don't. That's likely to, and in your head, you can play a little game of clue until the only card still standing are the ones who should be your future business partners.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also just thinking about your role here. You're the newest person at this branch. Your colleagues have been there for, what, five years?

You said they've gone through three big transitions together in a way that could be an advantage. Maybe you see the opportunity that they're missing. Maybe they need somebody with fresh eyes to be the leader. In another way though, it could work against you. They might perceive you as the new guy who just doesn't know how complicated this is, or you know, the new who's like stirring the pot and creating even more risk for people who are tired and have [00:45:00] already gone through multiple upheavals.

So. Just maybe factor that into your approach. I'm not saying you know that you're not the person to lead this, you know your colleagues best, but it's just one other variable you might want to keep in mind.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe you should appeal to their experience, like you guys have seen way more than I have. What am I missing here?

And maybe even say, if we do this, I would want you to handle these specific clients or reassure these specific employees because they trust you, that kind of thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even if this plan is not ultimately doable, there are other options here. The most obvious one is just start your own IT shop. You know, take a bunch of your colleagues with you and poach clients from your old employer.

They sound like they're halfway out the door already, so you might be able to literally have paying customers on day one. The most interesting thing in your letter to me is that you're seeing an opportunity here, like Jordan said, trying to buy this branch. And run it as an employee own thing is a very cool idea, and it could totally be the move, but I do wonder if it's just unnecessarily complicated.

Whereas starting your own company and just eating your former employer's lunch, that's not going to be [00:46:00] a walk in the park either. But if you're going to be doing all of this work anyway, it might be in your interest to just start fresh.

Jordan Harbinger: My thoughts. Exactly. That way you don't have to convince these new owners who just spent a bunch of money buying this branch and a bunch of time integrating it to part ways with this.

You'll probably make more money by being the full owner or having more equity anyway than by making the business employee owned.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus, if you start your own thing, you get to choose who comes with you and you can be strategic about which skills and which personalities you end up taking. Whereas with the employee owned entity, I honestly do not know how that works, but I'm guessing it would be kind of hard to say, Hey, yeah guys, we're all taking over, you know, Viva Revolucion or whatever.

But actually Ted, uh, sorry Bud. We don't need you. All you know how to do is software updates and um, Jared, you make great coffee, man, but you did not seem pumped about this when I brought it up at happy hour. So yeah, awkward. But Friday's your last day.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. How do you deal with the Teds and the Jareds in that situation?

I would rather feel everyone out in advance, make some moves privately, and then choose a great starting lineup and also invest in a [00:47:00] nice espresso machine so they don't need Jared to make the coffee anymore. So maybe you do some research on that too, the advantages and disadvantages of these two models, the risks and opportunities of each, and just see which one appeals to you.

My gut is telling me that starting your own thing is really the move. Whatever you do, do your homework. Be smart. Be discerning. Surround yourself with people who share your vision, your work ethic, your risk tolerance, who want to build in the same direction, and I know you'll make the right call. Good luck.

Now it's time for the recommendation of the week.

Legit Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, yes. And we do have a license for that now, so you don't have to listen to me and Gabe butcher it ourselves. Thanks for letting us workshop our terrible British accents for the last few weeks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, and sorry for offending all of our UK listeners with our mediocre dialects.

I do somewhat regret that, but I did need the practice so. As you guys probably know, I love to read physical books. Audio books. I love 'em all. But if you read a lot, it can become a bit of an expensive habit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Can confirm. If I didn't get PDFs of the books I've read for the show, Jayden or [00:48:00] Juniper, they wouldn't be able to go to college.

Sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder which one would have to miss out on college.

Jordan Harbinger: Whoever turns out less funny. I, I don't make the rules. Anyway, I feel you on this. Carry on. Yeah. This stuff adds up fast.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And when you buy books, then when you're finished, you either have a digital copy on your Kindle or your iPad that you just never open again and you can't pass it on to somebody else.

Or you're left with a physical copy that you have to find room for on the bookshelf or you have to do something with. So a few years ago I started using an app called Libby. Libby is the main app that libraries around the country use to lend out digital books and audio books and magazines. All you need to use it is a library card, which is of course totally free.

It integrates seamlessly with Kindle, so you can download the book through Libby and then you could read your book on Kindle. You can annotate and highlight just like with any other Kindle book, it syncs across devices automatically. It works everywhere in the world as far as I can tell. The only downside is sometimes you have to wait for a hold on a book just like you do at the library because they have only so many digital copies.

But that's not a huge deal. This has cut my [00:49:00] book budget down to nearly zero. The only books I buy now are ones that are obscure or out of print or whatever, or when I want to keep a physical copy for a very specific reason or I'm getting somebody a gift. Otherwise I use Libby. I love this app. It's just like going to the library without having to physically go to the library.

I'm a big fan willing to it in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Good one, Gabe, and way to keep libraries alive. I think that's always nice. And now all that money you're saving on Tom Clancy novels and audio erotica, you can put that toward the amazing sponsors who make the show possible. We'll be right back.

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We'll happily dig it up for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the rest of feedback, Friday. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. My parents divorced when I was six and my dad remarried a year or two later. I spent many childhood weekends and summers with my dad and stepmother, [00:51:00] and I truly have a lot of warm memories of that home.

I even lived with them during my high school years. That period was bumpy, partly because I was a pretty typical emotional teenager and partly because my two younger half brothers were very young at the time. But over time, I grew into good relationship with my brothers, even if we were never extremely close.

I always lived on the West Coast, but 12 years ago, my husband and I moved across the country to be closer to my dad's side of the family. I wanted real consistent connection for the first time in my adult life holidays together, being part of a larger family network, and especially being present for my nieces and nephews.

Growing up between 2014 and 2020, we had some good times together, but there were also some rough patches. My husband and I began to notice a pattern where my brothers and their families always seemed to come first in planning visits or gatherings, and we were expected to adjust around them. We were rarely invited to my dad and stepmother's home, which is about 20 minutes from us, unless [00:52:00] one of my brothers was already planning to be there.

There were also occasions where plans with me were canceled at the last minute if one of my brothers decided to visit instead, and there were small but painful moments. For example, once we were invited over, specifically for my birthday. But my stepmother happily announced that the meal and dessert were my brother's favorites.

Boo. Over time these things added up, and both my husband and I began to feel like we were more of an afterthought than part of the core family unit. Then in 2020, during the early COVID period, everything came to a head. My husband has a heart condition, so we were extremely cautious and limiting contact while the rest of the family was still regularly gathering around that time.

There was also tension after I made a poorly worded comment to a sister-in-law about her involvement in beauty pageants, which I personally find demeaning to women. I later apologized and tried to clarify that I simply didn't understand that world, not that I meant to insult her. That Thanksgiving, my husband [00:53:00] and I were excluded from the family gathering at one of my brother's homes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Ouch. Yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting fight, that is.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, okay, but like, is that comment worth not inviting your own sister to Thanksgiving? Sorry, I insulted your love of tiara's. I don't know. I mean, who get over it. This is so petty.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It depends how much you love beauty pageants. I guess maybe the sister-in-law is really passionate about them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But then like, okay, somebody doesn't like a thing that I like all the time. This happens. I'm a podcaster, sir. People, you know how long people have been like, what's that? That's for dorks. What kind of loser does something like that? I mean, maybe not in 2026, but certainly for the first decade and a half of me doing this, so

what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But something tells me beauty pageants are more loaded for this family for some reason.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm getting a sense our friend here and her family, they probably speak different language, very different languages. Mm-hmm. And probably hold pretty different values, whether it's about public health or beauty pageants.

But I don't know. I was thinking like, okay. Libtard side and MAGA side, they're not getting along during COVID. Okay, [00:54:00] so what, and I'm saying that ironically people don't get mad, but the husband has a heart condition. I feel like even the most planned demic conspiracy theory sort of crazy right wing, the whole thing is a plan by the alien, uh, lizard people.

If you got a heart condition and it might kill you, that's different from like vax versus anti-vax drama or like mask versus no mask drama. This is like, you know, he could die. He's got a heart condition. Come on. Like give him the benefit of the doubt.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You sweet, sweet summer podcast. Yeah. You think science is going to unite people in this day and age?

I don't know. It does make me wonder if there's more going on here just in terms of like their personalities and the things that they care about and get upset about. But safe to say she and her family are on different pages for sure. She goes on this shocked and hurt me deeply, especially because everyone had already accepted our invitation to Christmas at our house.

They claimed Thanksgiving was all ad hoc and there was quote unquote no plan, which was not true. I expressed my hurt and things deteriorated from there, mainly with my stepmother. Just to clarify, I never cussed [00:55:00] anyone out, stole money, killed anyone, et cetera.

Jordan Harbinger: Not

JHS Trailer: yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just got mad because we were excluded from a major family event after already feeling excluded or insignificant on several occasions.

Jordan Harbinger: Good on you for speaking up. I guess we have no idea how that conversation actually went down, but it sounds like it was time to speak up and try to figure this out. I mean, just the whole like, I made your brother's favorites on your birthday thing. It's kind of, I mean, come on. We all know what's going on here, don't we?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know, actually. I think sometimes when you're really hurt, those tiny, innocuous things that the person didn't intend can actually sting. Yeah, they can hurt quite a bit, but maybe she didn't mean it. Maybe she was an offhand, I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to know sometimes. But anyway, she goes on.

Since then, I've apologized many, many times for getting upset and agreed to multiple family counseling sessions and meetings.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow. This is one of the only times we've act, we've actually heard about a family going to therapy together.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's promising, but I'm going to go ahead and guess. That's not why we're getting this letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In every one of those meetings, my [00:56:00] stepmother becomes extremely upset and things escalate to the point that nothing ever resolves and we end up right back where we started.

Jordan Harbinger: Never mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My stepmother continues to say that she's still hurt without ever being able to clearly name what I did beyond tone or perceived disrespect back in 2020 to 2021.

Jordan Harbinger: Hang on, let me check my watch. It's 2026. Get over it.

That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: right. Five years now. Five plus years.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so frustrating. So her feelings were hurt five years ago, and she's decided to hold that grudge and never let go. That's reasonable. That's the mark of a mature, well adjusted adults

Gabriel Mizrahi: During difficult conversations, she has become highly emotional, yelled, cried, walked out, or shut down completely.

Including one time where she literally covered her ears and loudly recited the alphabet. No. So she wouldn't hear me speak?

Jordan Harbinger: No. Come on that, okay. That deal mostly seals it for me. I mean, that's just.

Biden Clip: Come on man.

Jordan Harbinger: Y'all know we try [00:57:00] to make room for everyone's point of view and these letters as much as we can.

Conflicts are rarely neat and clean, but your stepmom sounds like a total child. You're hurt, you're upset, you feel slighted. Fine. You express that, you talk it out with the person, you work through it to literally cover your ears. And I can't believe I'm saying this about an actual adult scream, the ABCs so you don't have to hear the other person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is an insane thing to do.

Jordan Harbinger: Objectively. Was the therapist in the room? I.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was wondering if that was in the therapy session or if that was just like in their living room.

Jordan Harbinger: It had to be because she would, the look on a therapist's face when this is going on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, if that therapist is worth their salt at all, they would hopefully get in there and help her figure out what is going on when she does something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. It would be like, oh, I see what's going on here. You have three functioning brain cells. The emotional maturity of not even a 3-year-old, because my daughter would never do that. She, she would never do that. If you are literally covering your ears, if you're going, I actively am making it impossible to heal and move on, only my [00:58:00] feelings matter.

I'm not listening A, B, C, D, F, G. You can't, you can't be in a real relationship with somebody like this. This is ridiculous. Totally.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, my own hurt is never acknowledged. Sure. Every family meeting eventually becomes about me apologizing all over again while nothing changes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, even if you share some of the blame here, even if you made some mistakes and you need to work on some stuff, not acknowledging your experience whatsoever and making you apologize over and over again, and then changing nothing.

This tells me that these are not actually true conversations with your family.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I would tend to agree. Although let's remember she didn't say they make her apologize all over again. She might just be choosing to apologize again and again.

Jordan Harbinger: You know that's a good distinction.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The sense I'm getting is that she's not making progress any other way and progress to her, I imagine is closeness, consistency, right?

So she might be going, okay, I'll say, I'm sorry, over and over again. Maybe that'll get them to embrace me, but it might be having the opposite effect.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? It might be actually emboldening them to act this way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:59:00] Maybe. Yeah. It's hard to know for sure 'cause we weren't there, but I wonder if they hear her apologize over and over again and then they go, well she's in the wrong, that's why she keeps apologizing.

It's not us, so we don't need to change it all.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I can't get this image out of my head of a grown woman with like gray hair. Going A, B, C, D, F, J. Just so like patently ridiculous. It seems like something you would see in an episode of a reality TV show or like I, I don't know. It's just absolutely ridiculous.

I, okay. I wonder what would happen if she stopped apologizing in these family meetings.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's come back to that. So she goes on, my dad strongly believes that husband and wife are one under God unquote, and when my stepmother is upset, he withdraws rather than risk conflict in his marriage.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a nice little biblical cop out there, I think.

I mean, very common. So dad's just bowing out to keep things on an even keel and protect his unstable, ridiculously immature wife [01:00:00] and avoid any conflict with her, which is really a way of sparing himself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh, it sucks that this is how so many systems work. The group cramps around the least evolved person.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. It's.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So annoying.

Jordan Harbinger: It reminds me of families that have an addiction. You always hear from the other siblings. This is like an Al-Anon thing, right? You always hear from the other siblings like that your life revolves around that person and their drug addiction. There's an episode for people who don't have an addict in their family.

There's an episode of Breaking, or a few episodes of Breaking Bad, and one in particular, Jesse goes home and stays with his parents and he's got a little brother and the little brother's like a good kid and doing well in school or something like that. And he said something like, man, you're the good kid.

Your, you know, mom and dad are so proud of you. And he's like, are you kidding? You are the only thing they ever talk about about Jesse. And that hits him pretty hard. 'cause he's like, oh, I'm the loser that everyone forgot about. And I, and they're like, no, you're their, our whole life revolves around you and how you messed up your life.

Yeah. So this is kind of like the same thing. This whole family [01:01:00] has to cramp around stepmom because they don't want to have to deal with that nonsense. So she controls everyone with this absolute insanity that everyone just puts up with because, well, that's the way it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then everyone else has to assume the responsibility and pay the price, which is infuriating.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I also, I mean, can't help but notice that the whole husband and wife are one under God thing that apparently didn't apply in his previous marriage when he got divorced, when her friend here was six and started a new family. But that's none of my business. Sips tea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Strong take. More like, uh, husband and wife are one under God when the wife is BPD and I don't want to deal with her.

Am I right?

JHS Trailer: Yes, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Husband and wife are one under God unless wife is making me sleep on the couch because I stood up for my daughter when she acted the fool at Thanksgiving and covered our ears and screamed the ABCs instead of actually talking out our problems. This guy is going to be real lonely when his wife dies and our friend here's like, oh, you need me to take care of you?

What about the other kid? Oh, they don't care. Okay, now you want me to come over for the holidays? New phone. Who? This?

Gabriel Mizrahi: My half brothers have also stopped [01:02:00] speaking to me since 2020. They've said that they won't reconnect until everything is resolved with their mom. But no one can ever define what resolved actually means or what is expected of me beyond endlessly apologizing.

Jordan Harbinger: What this means is they need the all clear from mom to have a relationship with you because otherwise she'll punish them. 'cause this is her controlling her whole family that she's done, she's done this her whole life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or these are her sons and they're just taking her side and they assume that our friend here is to blame.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, it's probably always been this way. I mean, this is just, it's, this is bullshit. Gabe, again, I really want to make room for the possibility that they might have a point that she might have done something to contribute to this breakdown, but it really does sound like her family is being vague and avoidant and constantly moving the goalposts at her expense.

So what the hell is she supposed to do?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Years have now gone by, I've missed so much of my nieces and nephews lives, including two who were born after 2020 that I've never even met. I still see my dad alone sometimes when my stepmother allows it. That is a [01:03:00] very telling detail.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When she allows it. So she's telling her husband when he can see his own daughter?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. And those visits are usually warm, but he always circles back to pushing for another family meeting. These meetings are emotionally draining and always lead back to the same dysfunctional pattern. I've had countless sleepless nights, severe anxiety, and I feel like I've been grieving a major loss for years.

It's almost like a death that never ends because the people are still here, but the relationships are gone. And the reality is I've essentially been iced out of this family for more than five years, simply because I expressed feeling hurt and like an outsider.

Jordan Harbinger: That's really hard. I'm so sorry to hear this.

I hate this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not claiming I handled everything perfectly. I don't think anyone did.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, comparing your sister to JonBenet Ramsey probably didn't do well, but whatever. You know, that's none of my business. Sips tea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, Jordan. The fact that she is admitting that she might have not been perfect also goes a long way in suggesting that she's the [01:04:00] reasonable party as we often talk about, but anyway.

I

Jordan Harbinger: mean, well, that and the a, b, c, la, la, la can't hear your thing. I mean, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That really ti that tipped the scales for me.

Tipped

Jordan Harbinger: the scales. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not claiming I handle everything perfectly. I don't think anyone did, but I've apologized, reflected, and tried to repair things many times.

At this point, it feels like reconciliation requires me to permanently accept blame without any accountability or empathy on the other side.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, not only permanently accept blame, but continually accept blame. It sounds like you've already accepted blame. And then even if they're like, good, we did nothing wrong, they're still not putting this behind them.

It's like, no, no, no. We're still going to hold this grievance and this grudge and, and make you feel like you need to apologize over and over again. That's why nobody can move on. It's, I've admitted that I'm wrong in situations where I don't think I am, or the other side has accountability just to move on and everybody moves on.

The problem is here. Nobody's willing to move on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel exhausted and I honestly don't know what a healthy next step looks like anymore. My husband firmly believes I should refuse any more meetings for the sake of my mental [01:05:00] health, but the guilt is brutal.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, interesting. That's got to be an important signal in all this.

They're making it hard po impossible really to meaningfully address and work through this for years. But when she thinks about pulling back, she's the one who feels guilty. That's interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Given this pattern and history, would you attend yet another meeting or finally step out of the cycle? How do I release the guilt and sadness of losing the family closeness I always wanted and even moved across the country to build?

Are these even people worth continuing to pursue a relationship with? And how do I continue to love my dad while protecting myself from being the permanent scapegoat? Signed a gal whose patience is growing thin as she fights to fit in with this kin when they won't just check in on my apparently mortal sin.

Jordan Harbinger: Whew. Man, this is a tough one. Early dark Jordan pitch telling me, won a hundred million dollars. They'll throw you a birthday party. Use I, I have a hundred million dollars. I don't have any kids of my own. I really want to set up a trust for my nieces and nephews. By the way, I haven't even met some of them.

Should we rectify that? [01:06:00] They are going, you will find yourself welcomed with open arms. They don't have to know. It's a bunch of bs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Cha. GBT should be able to mock up a winning lottery ticket, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Why? Like a fake case. Why You don't even show them the ticket. You just need to create a bunch of fake trust documents.

That's like a very light lift. Don't actually do this. I mean, you could. I don't care about these people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is too funny, dude. Imagine making up that you are multi-millionaire so that your family loves you, and then just keeping it a secret.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, they're selfish. This is just appealing to them being selfish.

Like, Hey mom, get over your crap. Don't pull your, any of your alphabet recitation nonsense. Again, we want little Jackie to have a free ride to college because so-and-so's going to pay for it. So be on your best behavior. Everybody welcome her back with open arms. Now will that really work? I mean, probably.

Uh, you might feel somewhat bad about it, but like, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But do you want to meet your nephews or not?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Do you want to meet your nephews or not? And here's the best part. They won't find out [01:07:00] until you're dead, so whatever, not your problem. Um.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a funeral that would be.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. Yeah. Hey, how do we, uh, handle the bank stuff?

What bank stuff? The money. Oh, that was a joke. And then when they're like, what you say A, B, C, D, E, F, G, I did that with QR. S-Q-V-W-X-Y-Z-G-T-F-O. I'm out of here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The inscription on our tombstone is just the ABCs all the way down.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. It just A, B, C and it just trails off underground.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Around Q. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah. Oh my God, man, uh, this is not your problem anymore.

So first of all, I hear how painful this has been for you for a very long time, and my heart goes out to you. Being the black sheep in the family is always tough. I wouldn't really know I was an only child, but I guess I always did feel a little different from a lot of the people I grew up with somehow, and I knew a lot of the black sheep and their families, and they all talk about how lonely it can be sometimes.

My mom was also, she was like the.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Quintessential.

Jordan Harbinger: White, white, white sheep. White sheep, but a family of black sheep. That's right, yes. In a family of black sheep. So [01:08:00] feeling like you come second in a variety of ways, having your family put other people first and not really acknowledge it or make it right.

That's objectively painful. I get why it's hard. Although I will say, not to dismiss your feelings, just to put this in context. I do think it's fairly common for families to prioritize the kids who have kids themselves, just because they have the numbers. It sounds like you and your husband don't have kids.

As I hinted at earlier, I'm, I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm not saying that this is the only reason this is happening, but sometimes families kind of reorient around the people who have kids because their schedules are harder, because it's harder to ask them to accommodate everyone else. I'm not saying it's totally fair, but it is often how it happens.

I mean, that kind of happened in my family. I don't have siblings, but both Jens and my family kind of revolve around our house because the kids are here and that's just how it is. They don't seem to mind so much, but if I had maybe a brother who was childless, maybe he would have some feelings about that.

But anyway, that might explain some of the planning stuff. It doesn't explain the emotional stuff, it's just something to keep in [01:09:00] mind. These slights might not all be entirely personal, but, so all that said, the picture you've painted in your letter is that you and your family are misaligned in a number of ways.

COVID protocols, beauty pageants, communication styles, social etiquette. I mean, I don't know how much to read between the lines here, but I'm, I'm getting the sense there might be some political differences between you and your family, as I mentioned earlier, or at least some values differences, and that can create some very real fissures in a family.

But let's put aside for a moment the question of who's right about all this stuff. That's not really the issue. The issue to me. Are there some shared core values in this family? Do you guys have a language for navigating differences? Can this family listen? Can this family repair after conflict?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do they love one another enough?

Do they respect one another enough to have a functional relationship on that plane, even if their beliefs and personalities are quite different, which is how many families operate?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And what I'm hearing is, no, they don't or they can't, at least not right now. And that might just be the way it is.

And let's just acknowledge that sucks. That [01:10:00] really sucks. Everyone wants a family. Everyone deserves a family to be rejected or slighted by your family to never feel like you can really get in with them and be treated unequal terms. That's a wound. And it sounds like every time you interact with them or every time things get bumpy, that wound gets reopened.

So my answer to your question is, given this pattern and history, yes, I think you probably need to step out of this cycle. That doesn't mean not having any relationship with your family. It just means stepping back and trying things in a new way. I don't think these family meetings are getting you guys anywhere.

That's pretty clear. Certainly not by apologizing over and over again. You gave it a go. I'm glad you did.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am too. That showed you were willing to work on things. You were willing to own your piece of this conflict. You were not trying to be right. I think that was worth a shot even if it failed.

Jordan Harbinger: But given how everyone else has shown up there, your stepmom especially, it just does not sound productive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This might also involve you and your husband adjusting your expectations of your family and seeing what that's like. You know, whether it's the expectation that they factor in your schedules the same way as everyone [01:11:00] else, or meet you with the same level of interest, or that they really engage with your opinions.

None of those expectations are wrong or inappropriate. It would be really awesome if your family could do that. But as you're finding out, not all families can, and that's where this pain gets recreated.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So if they can't meet those needs and expectations at a certain point, you've got to go, okay, is it fair to continue bringing those needs and expectations to them?

Or do I kind of have to read the room here?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, but I do want to be clear, and I think this is what her story is really about. That's also very, very painful. It's not just a matter of intellectually deciding, okay, I'm not going to need dad to back me up anymore. I'm not going to get upset when Bill won't let me meet the kids.

I'm not going to take it personally when stepmom unleashes at me at Thanksgiving when she doesn't make my favorite dishes for my birthday. And then, you know, like, voila, zero pain. This is about bringing more awareness to what specifically you might be looking for your family to give you. Whether it's realistic, whether it's safe to expect those things from them.

And yeah, experimenting with new ways of relating to them, [01:12:00] which might in fact be less intimate, less connected, at least for a period of time. And then noticing what that does, does it help your interstate? Does it invite something new into the family dynamic? What does it bring up for you?

Jordan Harbinger: So once again, Gabe, we're talking about grief.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The apologizing over and over again, the trying so hard to get in her family's good graces.

That has probably helped stave off the grief of having to confront the possibility, increasingly the reality that she might not have the family she ideally wants. So to go back to your question earlier, Jordan, what happens if she stops apologizing? What happens when she stops working so hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Then something new has to happen largely on her side of the equation, and that might be where the real work begins.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so, and that would include working through the guilt, through the sadness, which is probably very old, very layered, and that's going to take some time.

Jordan Harbinger: Like I said, the guilt is especially interesting. I mean, it sounds to me like they're sliding her in all these ways. They're marginalizing her. Stepmom is, I don't even know what to say about that situation.

She's out of her tree. Dad just retreats and he's [01:13:00] failing. Everybody involved by not calling her out because he's kind of a coward, and yet it's our friend here who feels guilty. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. It's pretty common, but it is also a little surprising.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That would be really rich territory for her to explore.

My hunch is that the guilt is partly a way to stay connected to her family. If she decides to give up and pull back. That would mean feeling all of this pain even more, and the guilt might be a way to have to keep trying with them. It's kind of like an emotional glue.

Jordan Harbinger: The guilt might also be a symptom of feeling like it's on her to fix all this, and I'm guessing that dynamic goes back a long way all the way to childhood.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure. I also wonder if what she experiences as guilt is actually inverted anger.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Like she's angry at her family, but she's turning that against herself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And specifically, I'm so mad at you for hurting me. Might become, it must be on me to make you love me.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Yeah. That actually breaks my heart when you put it that way, because that's how a child understands this stuff.

Children don't go, mommy can't listen to me, daddy doesn't care [01:14:00] about me. They go, there must be something wrong with me that mommy doesn't listen and daddy doesn't care. Then they contort themselves in all these ways to try to get those needs met.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Like you said, this probably does go back a very long way.

Jordan Harbinger: So I think this is less about releasing that guilt and sadness and actually doing the opposite.

I would invite them in daring to bear them trusting that whatever feelings come up are actually part of how you find a new way with your family. It's possible your family will always cause you some pain, but how much pain they cause, how you work with that pain, what meaning you make of it, by which I mean what conclusions you draw about your self worth based on their opinions and their behavior, even what conclusions you draw about them that is under your control to some degree.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And so yeah, it is entirely possible that these people are worth continuing to pursue a relationship with, but the question they're posing to you in their strange way. Is, what kind of relationship should that be? What kind of relationship does it want to be? It's a very big question. It's a little confusing, and also it can change over time.

Maybe the answer you come to [01:15:00] is honestly not much of a relationship at all, and you are allowed to decide that. Or maybe the answer you land on is some relationship, but with less contact or less frequency or less intimacy, or I just have to be a little bit more careful with myself so I don't get as hurt by them when they don't meet me the way I wish they would.

My guess is that that's probably where you're heading at least for a little while.

Jordan Harbinger: But that question is going to be a lot easier to answer once you experiment with some different ways of being with them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also have a feeling that that's going to make it easier for you to continue to love your dad while protecting yourself from becoming the scapegoat as you put it.

Because if you refuse to be the scapegoat in the first place, which is something that I would definitely encourage you to play with, then you might feel less resentment toward your dad for allowing you to be in that position at all. There's so much to say about that, but I wonder if you might be looking to your dad to do something for you that you now need to do for yourself.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. It's not an unreasonable want to be emotionally protected by a parent, but you might not actually [01:16:00] need that from him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. And another consequence of that shift might be you might start to have some compassion for your dad. Right now, all you see is how he's failing you, or a lot of what you see is how he's failing you, which again, totally understandable, but if you put down the scapegoat role, if you stop trying so hard to apologize over and over again.

Then you might start to see how your dad is in a way, failing himself. It's probably not that he doesn't love you, it's that he doesn't have the capacity for conflict for St. Sturdiness. The conviction to say to his wife, honey, I see that you're upset. You need to take a breath and listen to what my daughter is saying for a moment.

You know, maybe stop melting down and reciting the ABCs and blaming her for everything and work on this with her. He just can't do that. But it's really hard to have that compassion when all you're in touch with is your own pain and your own need, however fair and appropriate that need is.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, that is so true.

And of course now I'm thinking about Joe Loya and how he got to that point with his own dad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. Great. Parallel the [01:17:00] whole thing with his father, you mean how he finally saw him? Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, totally. That compassion. That's really only possible when you get out of your own story and really appreciate the other person's.

It's so hard to do, but it's so powerful. Listen, I'm going to say a hard thing. I don't say it lightly. My intention is not to hurt you more. I think you know that, but I also get the sense you're ready to hear it. So here it goes. Your family. They might not be the family that you always hoped for. The one that you moved across the country to be closer to the one that you're so hungry for.

They are your blood family, of course, and I hope they always play an important role in your life, but they might not be your family. Family, a system that loves you the way that you deserve. Some family members, they just don't. guilt man, partly because of personalities, partly because of these capacities, partly oil and water kind of stuff.

And that's obviously really sad. This is where the grief gets intense. But I want you to make room for the idea that you can find this love and connection in a lot of places. Your husband, of course, your friends, your chosen family, and not just that you can, but that you should. [01:18:00] Not everyone is blessed with family.

That's amazing and loving and perfectly compatible, but everybody is blessed with the ability to create that love in other places. So that's my hope for you as you find your way through this new chapter with your family. You might be surprised by what's on the other side. Who knows? But it's definitely going to be growth and whatever that looks like, that's the real win.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out our episode with Derek Coburn and our Skeptical Sunday on Passport Bros. If you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust.

I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Six Minute Networking is free without any shenanigans on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen [01:19:00] Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

We're more connected than ever and somehow more vulnerable than we've ever been. Cyber Crisis author Eric Cole explains how AI driven attackers corporate scale, scam operations, and aging systems have turned everyday tech into an open door.

JHS Trailer: So you want to be a hundred percent secure. You want your family to be a hundred percent secure.

It's easy. Pack up your bags, sell everything. Move to Pennsylvania and become Amish. Because I'll tell you, I hacked a lot of things in my life. I have not been able to hack a candle and a horse and buggy. If you have no functionality or no benefit, you can be a hundred percent secure. [01:20:00] And to give you a more realistic example, my smartphone, as soon as you add any functionality, you're decreasing Security.

Security and functionality are inverse a hundred percent. Security is zero. Functionality. What is the value and benefit? What is the risk and exposure Is the value worth the risk? If the value and benefit is worth the risk, do it. If the value and benefit is not worth the risk, don't do it. And the reality is, and I always tell people, the most dangerous word on the internet is the F word, and it's not what you're thinking.

The F word is free. Free is not free because all the times when you have a free app, you're basically allowing them to access your microphone or your camera or your pictures. If they ask you and you say yes, and you give them permission, that's actually an authorized app that is allowed. And the reality is most people don't even realize when they install these apps, they're hitting yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And allowing access. If I want to make my smartphone a hundred percent secure, smash it, burn it, throw it in a ditch, turn it [01:21:00] off, and it'll be a hundred percent secure. It's actually freaking scary of how much you're being monitored and tracked with your phones. You don't even realize it.

Jordan Harbinger: Check out episode 1247 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Eric Cole, and you'll start looking at your phone, your home, and even the power grid very differently.

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