1271: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin’ | Feedback Friday

1271: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin' | Feedback Friday

This transcript is yet untouched by human hands. Please proceed with caution as we sort through what the robots have given us. We appreciate your patience!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, the Allen wrench, helping me assemble this prefabricated Davenport of Life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from rocket scientists to four star generals, gold smugglers to money launderers. This week we had Jamie Mustard, author of Child X. This is a memoir of slavery, poverty, celebrity, Scientology.

I don't mean slavery like plantation slavery. I mean, this is stuff that was happening in the eighties in Scientology. Jamie was born into Scientology on what he called a baby farm. There was forced labor, no education, FBI raids and a billion year contract. His [00:01:00] story arc is bananas. He's a really interesting guy.

We also had an out of the loop last Sunday on Venezuela. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and generally extract our pound of flesh, or in my case today. Of phlegm from the villains in your letters.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Speaking of which, Jordan, do you wanna tell everybody why you sound like death today?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I went to a Disney hotel. That's not the whole reason.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a weird flex to the Little Mermaid themed palace down in Hawaii.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. When I sat in the front row at Hamilton. Uh, no, I, so what happened is I decided to take the kids to Hawaii and I thought, this'll be fun. I'll take 'em to a Disney hotel.

You can tell this is not really my idea. Jen decided this, and when we showed up, everyone from staff to every guest was coughing like a barking dog.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am sure you say Disney Hotel. I hear RSV Sandbox.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. This was a cruise on land. You know, just kids coughing on other kids and then grownups who should know better.

Coughing [00:02:00] on kids. Your

Gabriel Mizrahi: favorite thing,

Jordan Harbinger: you're like, I will throat you, sir. That sounds perverted, but you know what I meant. That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: the mean I will throat you.

Jordan Harbinger: I meant throat punch, but I'm not fully operational today. But a weird

Gabriel Mizrahi: way. It's like

Jordan Harbinger: it's That's the triple extroversion

Gabriel Mizrahi: strange punishment. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It depends who's getting, depends which, anyway. The other thing about Disney hotels is people trade pins.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Like your ATM codes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Just like Oz Perlman. You'll guess your pin code. No. Like you'll have a Mickey Mouse pin and someone else has a little mermaid pin or whatever. And so my son is super into this and the staff will give your kids pins if they're being good and queued.

And then you go trade 'em at pin trading hour at each store. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: like Disney, Pokemon.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. But you're touching a bunch of people's pins and then you pull another pin off the board and so you're just sharing germs with the entire hotel. And yeah, so basically the kids were one bite in, which is all they ate, of course, to their $70 waffles at the character breakfast.

And I was like, I am getting sick for sure. And the next [00:03:00] day. I was just say I, yeah, I had what I have now, which is weird 'cause I don't feel bad. Like you can hear, I still have energy, but my voice in my lungs are like, yeah, we're just operating at 50%.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I gotta say, you don't sound bad. It sounds cool.

Actually,

Jordan Harbinger: I, if I could keep the voice without the disgusting cough that when you use it in public, people look at you like, I sound like a homeless man on the street from Grand Theft Auto five. That's what I sound like right now. Like when you walk over one of those veterans who's like, ha, you have any money for me?

That's what I sound like right now, like kind of like the, like rugged, like defender. I gotta do the defender ads. Defender built from the ground up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You sound like a Ram commercial

Jordan Harbinger: Built for Tough. That's what I feel like right now. Anyways, whenever I'm in a hotel, Jen's always, it's cold and I'm like, it's hot.

So she turns off the AC and I sit on top of the blankets with like butt naked with sweating and she's like, I'm still cold. So I slept four hours and four days that essentially. [00:04:00] It was the last nail in the coffin of my immune system. So anyway, we're gonna go long today and I gotta keep my voice. So let's, what's the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a wife and mother in my forties and my 15-year-old daughter just asked me if I can buy her a toy for masturbation. Masturbation. She wants a toy so she doesn't feel driven to have sex right now, which is a very worthwhile reason in my opinion. I'm not necessarily against her having one.

I'm just caught completely off guard about how to answer and I don't wanna damage her trust. I told her I heard her question and need time to process it. She took a leap in being vulnerable with me on such a sensitive subject, and I feel the courage it took for her to say something to me. I never in a million years would've felt comfortable asking my own mother the same question.

I grew up in a church culture that told us to stuff our feelings down. That feelings were sinful anyway, and that only rotten sinners had sex before [00:05:00] marriage. I didn't even know what masturbation was at her age. While I've done a tremendous amount of healing from purity culture and the religious beliefs that fostered it, and I absolutely repudiate those tenets, I'm struggling with where boundaries should be and how to help her establish a healthy sexual self.

Knowing that I cannot control her. What do you think I should do? Is it okay to buy toys for 15 year olds? And what are some safe sexual boundaries for parents and teenagers in a situation like this? Signed hoping you can prime a mother who had to climb out of a background where this stuff just wasn't given airtime so she can appropriately chime in on her daughter's interest in a little me time.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Gabe, you take this one. I am out

Gabriel Mizrahi: time to consider adoption. That's my professional opinion.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. You guys had a good run. Make this somebody else's problem. I kid obviously. Well, speaking the kids interesting question. Definitely a first for us on the show. Yeah, this is something I think a lot of parents would struggle with, including me.

So I guess I'll take some notes [00:06:00] over here. I gotta say, my first thought when we read this letter was, can't you just go buy this product yourself? Why does this need to be a family outing? But then I actually learned in some states, you have to be 18 to purchase a sex toy, which I didn't realize. That makes very little sense to me, honestly.

I mean, I, you don't want a 10-year-old buying this stuff, but like a 16-year-old, a kid can't buy a fleshlight or whatever. I mean, are we really policing that? Anyway, I'm gonna assume y'all live in one of those states or counties and that's why this is the thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also possible that she's asking her mom because she's embarrassed to go on her own, or she doesn't know how to go about this, or she's asking her mom for help.

Not because you know, like the logistics are a problem, but simply because she wants to be able to talk to her mom about this stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: She doesn't want it to be a big secret.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, she feels safe with her. She wants to be open, which is, I have to say is actually sweet in a certain way. I do get the sense that's the real conversation happening here.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. And that's really what this letter is about. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this. We reached out to Dr. Linda Bagot, clinical psychologist, specializing in women's sexuality, body [00:07:00] image, relationships, and trauma. And boy am I happy we have an expert today because there is nothing more cringe than two adult men on a podcast telling a mother whether she should buy her daughter a vibrating pocket rocket from Adam and Eve.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, our friend here is wincing so hard right now.

Jordan Harbinger: We can have a laugh about this along the way. I don't know how I'm gonna get through it anyway. I am grateful to Dr. Bagot for helping us out here, and the first thing Dr. Bagot said was, it sounds like you handled this conversation very well, all things considered.

She also said, and I totally agree, that really speaks to how far you've come and what a safe, trusting, non-shaming relationship you've built with your daughter, that she would even approach you about this

Gabriel Mizrahi: and that when you didn't exactly know how to respond, you asked to take some time to think. You reached out for advice, you didn't shut the conversation down or run away from it.

You wanted to handle this in a healthy way, in a positive way. I think all of that is really excellent.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed to quote Dr. Bagot here. That is some Grade A parenting. So Dr. Bagot had a very clear response to your question. She said, it is absolutely okay to help a [00:08:00] 15-year-old buy a sex toy. In fact, she said there are several positive reasons to do so.

I know that might take some people by surprise. Took me by surprise a little bit, but I thought her logic was interesting. So first off, Dr. Bagot said that the reality is girls typically develop sexual desire between 11 and 14. Around half of them engage in some type of sex by age 19 and over half view pornography.

That means teen girls are largely learning about sex from pornography and other teens who are either much more experienced or equally inexperienced. So allowing a teen girl to explore her own body on her own terms without the risk of pregnancy, violence, sexually transmitted infection, heartbreak in Dr.

Bag's view, that is a gift. Second. Dr. Bagot believes that that sends the message that sexual desire in the body in general is normal, natural, and nothing to be ashamed of. And it sends the message that sexual pleasure is important for women and that they do not have to depend on someone else for it. In Dr.

Bag's view, those are all positive messages that set teen girls up for emotionally and physically healthy sex lives as [00:09:00] adults. Whereas if you said no, that could lead her to feel shame about this and she probably wouldn't come to you with sexual concerns in the future. And Dr. Baggett pointed out she could turn to sexual activities with others or unsafe objects, which is gross to think about as an alternative.

So to quote Dr. Baggett here, if it were me, I would do it without hesitation,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but to be clear by help her buy one Dr. Bagge means talk together about it. Maybe look together, talk to a salesperson together, find helpful articles together, stuff like that. And then your daughter chooses, like she's not endorsing you as a mom, going out and choosing a sex toy for your daughter.

Jordan Harbinger: And again, the fact that she asked you for help, that probably suggests that she doesn't know how to go about buying one or choosing one. So Dr. Bagot said that if it were her, she'd ask her teen if she wanted help picking one out, either from her or another trusted adult, or if she wanted her to point her to articles about how to choose for a beginner and let her do it herself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, I wanna pause here for a second because Dr. Bag's take, took us a little bit by surprise. To be honest. Not the whole healthy, open, sex positive approach. We're [00:10:00] generally all for that. But for the unequivocal endorsement for helping a child buy a product like this,

Jordan Harbinger: just the idea of going together with your daughter to an adult store to buy a vibrator is just, I mean, that's a fun afternoon.

I'm just picturing the guy who rings them up going, so what app did you two meet on? And our friend's like, oh no, no, no. This is my daughter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hopefully it's women working at these places. That'll make it easier.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. The one by me is a guy working there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So, oh. Really, I would love to hear how you know that

Jordan Harbinger: it's right next to this taco place I like.

Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh sure. Got it. I'm sure you were there for their carnitas. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right. Carnitas and ky.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. Lan Gosta and, uh, lube.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, just don't put those on the same taco.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Once again, I would love to know how you know that. Anyway, we asked Dr. Beckett about this. Is this a Dr. Bagot stance or is this what most mainstream or conventional sex therapists would advise nowadays?

And her response was, eh, it's probably somewhere in between. In her experience, most therapists who work [00:11:00] with teens who work with sexuality, trauma, religious trauma, especially relationships, they would likely agree with this take provided again in Dr. Bag's experience that they are current on what is developmentally appropriate for this age.

She did acknowledge though that there are definitely therapists out there who would be horrified at this idea. But in Dr. Bagger's view, a lot of those folks are probably taking a shaming slash sex negative stance, which as you can see, is not her style or they just don't know much about this topic.

Jordan Harbinger: I also wanna highlight Dr.

Bagget also qualified that her take would be very different if this were like a nine-year-old kid, or if this mom were pushing her agenda on a teen who hadn't initiated the conversation or if there was even a hint of anything abusive or dysfunctional happening. But given the variables here, she believes this is safe and reasonable.

And I, I assume that's obvious, but I just wanna be clear

Gabriel Mizrahi: also, one of those big variables for Dr. Bagot is our friend, here's personal history. She is very specifically talking about the harm that her own [00:12:00] shaming, sex negative upbringing had on her. She's acknowledging how hard she's worked to move away from that way of thinking.

She's implying that she wants something very different for her daughter, an approach that hopefully aligns with her new values around all of this. So that really matters too. Also. Our friend here is not opposed to the idea of the toy, right? Her question is more, how do I handle this in a healthy way? So Dr.

Bagot stake was given that this is aligned with her own stated values and that it's developmentally appropriate, it is okay to do. Now, if she were writing in saying, masturbation is sinful and this is horrifying, what do I do? Dr. Baggett said that she would respond differently. Then she would probably want to help her explore where her discomfort is.

She would validate how different this request is from her own upbringing, her own worldview. She said she would probably provide some factual sex education, so. That's important context too. Dr. Bagot is saying, you wanna parent your child differently from how you were raised. You wanna do that in a healthy way, in an appropriate way.

Here's how you can do that.

Jordan Harbinger: That said, Dr. Bagot also believes that safe boundaries are super [00:13:00] important here. One big boundary is offering information and support around sex in an age appropriate way. Another is just being willing to have this conversation with your daughter because in doing so, you're respecting her bodily autonomy and the reality of her experience, which is that she's experiencing sexual desire.

Another way to establish safe boundaries is by having a collaborative discussion with her around privacy and how you'll go about doing this in a way that honors both of your boundaries. For example, giving her private time so you or another household member won't accidentally walk in on her, which I'm sure you would agree, would be unfortunate for everybody involved.

Another example, deciding whether you feel comfortable actually helping her shop. Do you wanna take her to the store? Do you want to give her the credit card and let her handle this herself? Do you want to give her some good online resources that talk about how to choose a toy like this? Dr. Bagot said there's articles for teens specifically, by the way.

Do you wanna suggest that she ask another trusted adult to guide her? Bring dad into the picture. I'm sure he'll love it. That's a good family outing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude. You thought the interaction with the cashier was gonna be weird. Just wait till dad is throwing down the visa for that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was joking. No need to email me [00:14:00] with a finger wag.

Guys, on this note, Dr. Bagot mentioned that if you do go with her to a store, women owned adult stores tend to be safe. They tend to be clean, the staff is helpful, knowledgeable, they're happy to provide guidance. You don't have to go to one behind a Chevron station run by a guy who's not allowed within a hundred feet of a school or something like that.

She also said there's some reputable educational websites like Babeland or Good Vibrations. They tend to have guides on how to choose products like this for beginners as well as a bunch of other helpful info. But anyway, Dr. Bag's insight here was the key to these boundaries is all of this should be both collaborative and honor what you both need and not cause either of you harm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And again, you already did exactly that by telling your daughter that you needed time to think in Dr. Bagger's view. That was respectful. That was kind to both of you. In her experience though, where parents can go off the rails with boundaries and sex is when they share too much information about their own sexuality or when they shame their children, of course, or when they don't respect a teenager's privacy, or when they provide age and appropriate information [00:15:00] or ask questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity as opposed to helping a child with a specific need.

Jordan Harbinger: Gosh, there's so many gross things that you can imagine going wrong with that. Asking questions in a sensational way to satisfy their own curiosity. I guarantee you, over the years we've seen feedback Friday letters of people who are like, my mom told me this and this and this, and we're like, what? I remember a few of those.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sadly, I think parents probably do that all the time. Sometimes accidentally and sometimes sadly, on purpose. Yeah, those are good guardrails.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe. I'm fully prepared for some people to write us saying that this is a bridge too far, even if this mother doesn't wanna shame her daughter. Helping her shop for a product like this is weird.

It's inappropriate. It's unnecessary. Honestly, though, I get it. I'm somewhat sympathetic to that viewpoint as well, but. We're also hearing from a legit expert who is saying actually done the right way. This doesn't have to be weird or damaging, which again, so grateful for Dr. Bagger's consult here. And once you get past the weirdness and the potential awkwardness, I think there's something sweet and honestly, pretty remarkable about a child trusting a parent enough to talk about [00:16:00] this.

I don't think I would've gone to my mom or dad in 1997 or six or whatever and been like, Hey, can I get one of these flashlights? I'm sick of using my hands and it'll keep me away from my girlfriend. Not that that was true at all. But anyway, like we said earlier, the question beneath your question is really how to meet your daughter in this big conversation, in this new phase of her development.

On that front, I think you're doing a wonderful job, especially given that you never in a million years would've asked your own mother this question, and now your daughter is asking you, and I just think that says a lot. So well done on creating a very different environment for your child, for having open conversations that are still healthy and respectful.

If you keep checking in with her and with yourself about where the right boundaries are, I know that's gonna make a huge difference in your daughter's life. Big thanks to Dr. Bagot for her wisdom. Here you can learn more about her and her practice@wellwomanpsychology.com, and you can find Dr. Bagot on Instagram at Wellwoman Psychology.

And now you can rub one out to the Sinfully. Good deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. These are deals you can [00:17:00] definitely tell your parents about. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. We're always told to kick off the new year as a new you, but honestly, I'm still busy trying to manage the current ME Therapy helps you figure out what emotional baggage you're dragging around, what you can finally set down, and how to actually do that in a healthy, strategic way.

And BetterHelp makes getting started really simple. You answer a quick questionnaire. They match you with a licensed US therapist using over 12 years of matching experience. And if the fit isn't quite right, you can switch anytime. No Gelt, no awkward conversations. They've got more than 30,000 therapists on the platform.

Over 5 million people served and live sessions average 4.9 outta five stars across 1.7 million reviews. That's a whole lot of people feeling a whole lot lighter. So if you wanna drop a few emotional bags this year without reinventing yourself from the ground up, BetterHelp is a great place to start.

Jen Harbinger: BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp dot com slash Jordan. That's better. hlp.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: This [00:18:00] episode is also sponsored by Delete Me. Delete Me. Makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

I know a lot of us don't think about this stuff until something happens, but it's pretty shocking how easy it is to find personal info online. Try searching yourself online. You might see your home address phone number, even family members' names can just be sitting out there on data broker sites, and that can have real world consequences and it's not just criminals.

More and more you got online partisans and bad actors digging up this info, using it to target people, and it is preventable. I personally use Delete Me. It is such a great service, easy to set up. It only takes a few minutes, and over time there agents will help remove your data from hundreds of data broker sites, which, let's be real.

None of us has the time or patience to do the New York Times. Wirecutter, even named Delete Me, their top pick for data removal services.

Jen Harbinger: Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me Plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/jordan and use promo code Jordan at checkout.

The only [00:19:00] way to get 20% off is to go to join delete me.com/jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout. That's join delete me.com/jordan code. Jordan,

Jordan Harbinger: thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps our batteries charged and all of our various devices we have laying around here to learn more and get links to all the great deals and discounts so you can support the show.

Visit the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to feedback Friday. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are in our seventies and my sister-in-law has always been a mess. She's continually called for money and complained nonstop about how difficult her life is.

She and her husband who live outta state always have their hands out with little to no consideration for others. When my father-in-law was alive, he gave them the down payment for their condo where they still live and always bought her cars. When he died, the estate was shared equally among his children.

My sister-in-law took her share [00:20:00] approximately a hundred thousand dollars. And quickly spent it on nonsense. We told her to put it in a 401k, but she didn't listen. She even paid for a girlfriend to travel with her to Hawaii on vacation. All expenses paid

Jordan Harbinger: great. Cool use of money. What an idiot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's her money.

But my God, a hundred thousand dollars on vacations and bullshit. I could never,

Jordan Harbinger: here's the thing, it's fine if you have millions of dollars, it's not fine. If you're broke, why are you broke? Gee, you wanna have fun? Take 10% of that. Treat yourself. Treat your friend. Make a memory. Great. You know, I'm all about that.

But put the other 90 K in a fricking Fidelity account, Marcia

Gabriel Mizrahi: minus a hundred grand, and plus one Facebook album full of blurry photos of you and your girlfriend from book club at the Ritz Carlton Waikiki. That's where you are.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. I hope that cucumber water was worth it. Marsh, geez, these people, man,

Gabriel Mizrahi: this has been going on as long as we've been married over 40 years.

Then one day she left my brother-in-law, voicemail, calling his wife very bad names, calling his stepdaughter's whores, and saying that we all [00:21:00] owed her money. My brother-in-law considers his stepdaughter as his own since he never had biological children of his own. Needless to say, he and his wife were very hurt and angry.

This was the final straw. At that point. He and my wife had enough and blocked her calls. All communications stopped.

Jordan Harbinger: So just to be clear, our friend, here's wife and her brother, cut the other sister off.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. Other cousins also blocked her calls. I was the only remaining link. I tried to keep in touch.

Occasionally I would send her money at holidays and birthdays, but never received a thank you. I even went through the entire process to refinance her condo at a lower rate, but then I became the punching bag, so I eventually blocked her calls too.

Jordan Harbinger: Unreal way to drive away the one person still on your team.

This person is an idiot

Gabriel Mizrahi: who's also giving you money and helping you save money, which you desperately need.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is what she says she wants. Exactly

Gabriel Mizrahi: right. This woman is out of her tree.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is pathological. I mean, nobody's that dense. There's something else going on here. [00:22:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then recently she's been finding the contact information from my daughter's friends and my brother-in-law's wife's relatives, and saying that we need to contact her, that we don't keep in touch, basically making us look like really bad people.

I called her in the past to explain that her actions were unacceptable and that she needed to apologize, but she didn't. So I've now agreed to call her to set the record straight and tell her that these family members don't want her in their lives, period. I don't wanna be mean-spirited, but I do wanna let her know in no uncertain terms that this is their decision.

They're not gonna change their minds. They are 1000% comfortable with the decision to never see or speak to her again. But I'm really struggling to come up with a message that is somewhat compassionate, but also leaves no doubt. How would you put this signed? Hoping I don't make a gaff when I tell this woman that she's a nightmare and a half.

Jordan Harbinger: Boy, what a piece of work. I'm so curious how our friend here became the one point of contact for this woman [00:23:00] after everything she did. She's not even his blood relative. All the rest of her family already cut her off. I don't know how he ended up here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is interesting. We don't know how that happened.

I mean, 40 years of marriage at some point it's kinda like it's all family, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe everyone else is like, we don't wanna do it. Can you please do it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or he volunteered because he often takes on those responsibilities, goes out of his way to be the diplomat, like sending her money on her birthday and refinancing her condo after she did a lot of crazy stuff.

That is interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: I wish we had a little bit more information about all this. He's either stepping up and representing the family appropriately, or he might have a way of taking on way more than he has to or picking up the slack for everyone else

Gabriel Mizrahi: or wanting to be the good guy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Maybe he has his reasons.

Just an interesting pattern in this letter. Anyway, I'm really sorry. Your sister-in-law is this way. All of this is super weird. It's hurtful. It's very uncomfortable for everyone. Honestly, everything you're describing sounds like legit mental illness, some combination of entitlement and narcissism, and a profound lack of self-awareness,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to imagine enabled by her father, the one who died, and probably a number of other people along the way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this [00:24:00] is a problem person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a very distant relative who is like this. She regularly turns on people, whips herself up into a frenzy. She'll call people, yell at them. She'll write five, 10 page letters detailing all the ways that they've upset her, let her down what they need to do to make things right, but then she'll beg people to visit her.

She'll bribe family members to like move back to her town so they can be closer and one by one, they're all having to cut her off or put a lot of distance between them and her, which is what she fears the most ironically. And she has no idea that she's making them do that. It's so sad.

Jordan Harbinger: So sad. There are some truly unhinged people out here who aren't like, lock this person up in a psych ward.

Crazy. But yeah, they're nuts. It's wild. So obviously this isn't someone you can have a healthy relationship with, and I guess I commend you for having the courage to communicate this to her. So the way I'd frame this is something like, listen, Marsha, I'm calling to share something with you. It might be a little hard to hear.

My intention is not to be cruel or hurt your feelings in any way. I'm just here to relay some information. As you know, a number of [00:25:00] people in our family have found their interactions with you. Very challenging. I know you have your reasons for reaching out to them. I understand you wanna be closer with the family, but the way you've gone about that, calling my daughters friends, distant relatives speaking poorly about us, it actually made it harder for everyone to be close.

Impossible, really, because the way you're talking to us, the way you're behaving, the. I don't think you intend it, but it's actually driving all of us away and it's actually gotten to the point now that my daughter, your brother, my wife, we all feel that it is unsustainable to have any relationship with you.

It gives me no pleasure to tell you that I wish it weren't this way, but there it is. So I'm calling to let you know that, just so you understand why we are where we are and why we cannot talk anymore.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice hard message. But yeah, I like that

Jordan Harbinger: it's short, it's sweet. Or the opposite of sweet. I guess. Keep it focused on the information.

Don't raise your voice, don't use this call to make your case or engage with her deeply about any of this. I'm talking about a three minute phone call. That's what I mean here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if she pushes back, maybe you say, look, I'm not here to get into all this. I know this is really [00:26:00] difficult. I'm sorry about that, but I'm just here to tell you where we stand.

Jordan Harbinger: Literally, I wouldn't say anything more than that. Based on what you've shared, your sister-in-law, look this. She is not looking for meaningful conflict to resolve. Here she is. Almost certainly going to lash out, try to Gelt you or manipulate you and defend herself. There's zero point in that do not get involved in that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So that family member I just told you about, her children and her grandchildren had to have a version of this conversation with her and it did not go well. It didn't go well from the standpoint of she didn't say, oh my God, I've driven everyone away. Maybe I'm in the wrong here. It did go well from the standpoint of, look, we've told you what the problem is.

We've given you the information. Now it's up to you to decide if you wanna consider things.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. Okay. So it actually did go well, right? She just didn't react well, but who cares At this point you're, it's over. I think our friend here knows that he's not trying to change Marsha at this point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's just about not being totally cruel by ghosting her with zero explanation, even though the reason is clearly more than obvious.

Jordan Harbinger: To literally anybody who's not mentally ill. Yeah. [00:27:00] Gabe, I'm just thinking about how weird it must have been for our friend here's daughter's friends to get a call from this woman being like, I was thinking about that. This is Daniella's, aunt Marsha. Her parents are neglecting me and they're bad people.

Tell Daniela to tell her mommy to call her sister while they're sitting there listening to this loony tune they've never met in their life. Scream at them on a speaker phone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. From the pool at the Ritz Carlton.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Literally your mother's driving me into poverty. Excuse me. Can we get into the round of $18?

Margaritas thinking? Yeah. Poverty. I said

Gabriel Mizrahi: like, okay, we'll pass along the message. I guess

Jordan Harbinger: it's so ridiculous. How do you even respond to that? Anyway, half the battle. Is delivering this message. The other half is enforcing the boundary. So you might wanna get on the same page with your family, decide how you guys want to handle her from here on out.

'cause I am sure Marsha's gonna continue to call and text and email you guys and it would help if you guys are clear and consistent in your response, which it sounds like is silence basically, which to me sounds perfectly appropriate

Gabriel Mizrahi: unless she re approaches you with a very different attitude. But I think that's [00:28:00] extremely unlikely.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, not gonna happen. If she does, I would be worried that she's trying to manipulate you again. But if she really came to you with a new attitude, maybe years later, sure you can hear her out carefully. Call me when you get on medication and you've been in therapy for a year or three. Marsha.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Until then, enjoy that 2.6% interest rate.

I locked in for you before you turned on me. You're welcome.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Very sorry. You have to deliver this message. It's not an easy one, but man, is it gonna feel good to not deal with this bull crap anymore? But your sister-in-law, she's made it a lot easier to deliver this message by being so outta line.

So be firm, stay strong, stay connected to your compassion. She's obviously in a lot of pain, but yeah, I think it's gonna be a lot easier from here on out. Wishing you, your wife, your daughter, and everyone normal in your family, a huge hug and wishing you all the best you can. Reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com.

Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to manage a creepy and manipulative peer in your professional group, you've just learned your wife is secretly an escort, [00:29:00] or your father has abandoned your mother with dementia and remarried a new woman in the eyes of God in a matter of weeks, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, wee bit wiser bite-size gem from us to you. Deliver right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you wanna keep up with the wisdom of the show, I invite you to come check it out.

It's a two minute read every week. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been married for three and a half years and genuinely love my husband. I can be completely myself with him. And our relationship has survived. Seven moves in five years. Job changes the purchase of a house, the subsequent financial loss when selling it and living semi on the road in a trailer.

We finally found an area we wanna call home and are both ready to put down roots and stop moving. But since deciding to settle down, our relationship has changed. We never directly talked about having kids and [00:30:00] starting a family, but I was upfront about wanting kids and I thought he was on the fence.

Jordan Harbinger: Hold up. That's a little confusing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They never directly talked about having kids.

Jordan Harbinger: She was upfront about having them

Gabriel Mizrahi: and she understood or assumed that he was on the fence.

Jordan Harbinger: So they did talk about it directly. Yeah. I don't know what's happening here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe she means that they didn't have fully open and honest communication around this topic, but how does that happen before you get married?

Jordan Harbinger: This is very surprising to me. They're married for three and a half years. They've been through all this huge stuff together. Wait, so hold on. They're in an RV driving for like 13 hours at a time. How do you not directly talk about whether or not you wanna start a family at this point? You have played six degrees of Kevin Bacon for hundreds of hours.

What else is there to talk about?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to say that something is not quite lining up between them here. So she goes on. We would be irritated by some children in public and enjoy our freedom. But we would also sometimes mention teaching kids our hobbies like hockey and skiing.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. [00:31:00] So they haven't talked directly about it, but they are talking about their hypothetical children. Maybe it's more hypothetical for him than it is for her. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe that's their way of talking, sort of implying things,

Jordan Harbinger: filling gaps, hoping the other person's gonna read between the lines.

Yeah, not a great strategy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had my second abortion last spring. I knew we were not in a healthy place to bring a child into the world. We were living in a campground cabin for a month and had no idea what our next living arrangement would be.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a difficult experience, I'm sure, but it sounds like you had some good reasons.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The experience this second time told me that the first was likely a miscarriage. As this time I felt pregnant.

Jordan Harbinger: What?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know, man. I'm just reading the letter

Jordan Harbinger: the second time told me the first time was likely a miscarriage, but it wasn't a miscarriage. She terminated the pregnancy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm assuming she means that she thinks the pregnancy didn't take before the abortion.

That's the only thing that makes sense.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I know women intuitively feel all sorts of things, but I'm not sure that feeling pregnant the second time means you weren't pregnant the first [00:32:00] time. It could also be like a timing thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I told him that there would be no more abortions. This one was hard enough.

Since then, I've been more careful with our contraceptives.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, good. That's, I think that's wise.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if the reality of that statement hit him at the time.

Jordan Harbinger: Is she referring to the no more abortions thing or This abortion was really hard on me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unclear. But once again, we are confused and they are not entirely on the same page.

Something about the way they communicate does not fully land all the time,

Jordan Harbinger: and then they keep chugging along without making sure that the other person is on the same page.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now that we're in an area that meets our combined needs, I am ready to start planning our future seriously, say for a house and prepare to start a family.

I'm 30 and unfortunately aware that the older I get, the riskier a pregnancy will be. While I would love to take a life break for a bit after a hectic several years, I don't wanna sit around while the ability to start a family slips away. Plus, I enjoy thinking about my future and having something to work towards.

But my husband [00:33:00] was taken aback when I brought up children, and our household has been uncomfortable since

Jordan Harbinger: once again, so confused, dude.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I learned that he doesn't have a vision for his future and definitely would prefer to avoid this difficult conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, clearly,

Gabriel Mizrahi: clearly.

Jordan Harbinger: So I'm starting to get the sense that your husband does not want kids and he doesn't have the heart to tell you.

So he just played along slash stayed quiet when you brought this up, hoping it would magically go away,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which is not cool. Interesting that she's saying he doesn't have a vision for his future because that's different from having a vision for his future that does not include children.

Jordan Harbinger: So the problem is obviously bigger than just the kids thing, but the kids' thing is a huge part of their future, and it's a huge thing that that's gone unresolved.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After a week of trying to have a healthy conversation with him, encouraging him to try journaling, leaving room for open communication, asking open-ended questions, and even signing up for couples therapy, the week ended with no solution. He felt that I signed up for therapy behind his back and his schedule is [00:34:00] now conveniently twofold to make space for therapy, so I canceled it.

Money is tight and it was out of pocket. I told him that he needs to think about this topic seriously. I need to know if he wants kids and if he doesn't, why? I told him that I accept if he doesn't, but there's a difference between fearing parenthood and genuinely not wanting that lifestyle. The former would benefit from conversation and therapy.

The latter is a final life choice. I also told him that I fear him giving me an answer to appease me and end the conversation only for him to wake up in 10 years resentful about where his life is and seeing his children as hindrances to the lifestyle he wants, leaving me in a position that I would call being a married single mother.

I told him that I would drop the conversation until after the holidays. We were visiting family and he could digest what I shared over a few months. Now I'm struggling to feel motivated to sustain the marriage. I get frustrated more easily. I'm starting to see more things that make me wonder if we're a good match as life [00:35:00] partners and keep daydreaming about idealized new relationships.

I wonder if I was naive to marry a man who outright told me he didn't believe in marriage, and if I ignored his reluctance to help around the house, he used the excuse of a demanding work schedule and are constant moving. Huge new piece of information.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Multiple. She's painted her husband as a void and and squirrely, but now she's saying, he outright told me he didn't believe in marriage.

So at least on one huge question, he was very explicit with her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So he might not be totally open with her, but it sounds like she has also failed to take him at his word and played along to some degree.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And to her credit, she's now starting to acknowledge that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then why get married? And how do you do that?

Jordan Harbinger: So then we're back to his stuff and he's saying, I don't want this. And she's saying some version of, okay, maybe you don't. Or maybe she's like, I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that la look, I changed your mind on getting married. Maybe I'll change your mind on kids. Some version of that. And then he's like, all right, I'll go along [00:36:00] with it and keep my mouth shut.

'cause it's too scary to tell her what I actually want. I don't wanna rock the boat. I got hockey practice. Bye.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is very stressful.

Jordan Harbinger: This dynamic is a recipe for disaster, but I think she knows that now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think that the moving around a lot and the financial and logistical insecurity probably gave them a reason to not talk about a lot of this stuff.

'cause they were just trying to survive day to day. But now that they found a town they wanna settle down again. Suddenly it's like, okay, we're stable enough to now acknowledge all of these other things that we had good reasons to avoid up until now. So she goes on. Also, we never lived in an area where we could each pursue our preferred lifestyles.

Now that we've settled in a larger town, I'm happy to see my husband pursue his hobbies, like hockey, going to the gym, going out with coworkers and playing video games with friends. But now my vision of my preferred life feels more distant. I'm left working a full-time remote job, pursuing a master's degree, managing the household finances, and doing all the cooking and most of the house chores.

I enjoy being a traditional [00:37:00] wife, but only if there's some shared responsibility. When I started my master's program a year ago, he agreed he would help out more, but that didn't happen. I don't believe in soulmates or the idea that there was only one person out there for everyone. I also believe that marriage is tough and walking away isn't the best answer, but I want a life partner who feels like a partner and envisions a future together, including raising a family.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't think it's crazy to want a life partner who wants the same things and shares the same values, just stating the obvious.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also don't think it's crazy to consider whether that person might not be your life partner if they just can't get there with you. So she wraps up, how do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be and stay patient while my husband does some serious soul searching.

What if he says he wants kids? And I'm now questioning whether I want his kids signed, navigating my fate when I and my maid are not on the same page about wanting to procreate.

Jordan Harbinger: First of all, I'm very [00:38:00] sorry you've been struggling with all this. You've been through a lot here, my friend. All this moving the financial stress to abortions, a master's program, running a house.

Working on your marriage, figuring out your needs and goals and identity. I mean, my goodness, this is very intense. I'm exhausted just hearing about it. There's a lot of sadness and anxiety in this letter, and I'm very sorry about that too. But look, these conflicts you're in with your husband, I think you can tell I'm frustrated with how he's communicated with you, how he's shown up in your marriage, and that was before the not pitching in around the house stuff.

But these really do sound like conflicts you end up in with somebody who's simply not compatible with you. But like we also just said, you're now seeing more clearly you did participate in this dynamic by discounting or ignoring certain facts. He didn't say, I don't believe in marriage. And you married him.

He at least hinted he was on the fence about kids when you wanted them, which I agree is not the best way to communicate his stance. But he did give you some important data about how he felt and you stayed in the marriage assuming you guys were moving towards the same future when it sounds like there weren't very [00:39:00] many indications that that was true.

I also have to point out, I don't mean to be finger waggy here, but I think it needs to be said, you presumably had unprotected sex many times as somebody who you weren't sure you wanted to have kids with. And even if he did wanna have kids, it sounds like you did that before. You guys were truly in a place to start a family and consciously made that decision together.

So again, I don't mean to sound judgy, I don't mean to sound lecturey at all here. I just find that fairly reckless. And then he paid the price, and I'm sure it wasn't fun for him either by having two abortions, one of which was really hard on you. I mean, I don't have to explain that to you, explained it to us.

I'm sure you've already learned a big lesson from all that I'm not trying to pile on. But in the interest of being totally fair here, I'm coming down hard on your husband, but you had a big role in all this too. And you don't need me to tell you that the stakes here when it comes to bringing a child into this world, it just doesn't get much higher than that.

So we've rarely come right out and tell people what to do, but given the facts here, I gotta say. I don't have high hopes for the marriage. It doesn't sound like this is your person for life. It doesn't sound like this is the [00:40:00] father of your children, not the one you want anyway. You guys are fundamentally misaligned on some very huge dimensions, and I just don't know what you're supposed to do about that.

You're also misaligned in your communication, but as we keep saying, you are participating in that dynamic. He might be hiding the ball a lot of the time and acquiescing here and there to keep you happy. That is absolutely on him. But you have also allowed him to do that until very recently anyway, by not pressing the issue, by not appropriately holding his feet to the fire by not going, look, I don't know where you stand on this topic.

I need to fully understand you. Please speak your mind even if you're worried that it might hurt my feelings. It was only recently that you started holding him to account and not ending the conversation until you have a clear answer. Which should have happened a long time before you guys got married, but I'm sure shows up in so many ways, in so many conversations, both big and small.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also wonder if her fantasizing about these idealized new relationships and we don't know what she means. Are they abstract, idealized, new relationships or is she like thinking about people she knows unclear, but [00:41:00] in addition to being a sign that she's kind of disconnected from her husband and, and might in fact already be moving on in some way.

And also maybe it's a way to enjoy some freedom in a situation where I imagine she feels quite trapped a lot of the time. I wonder if that mental flight is also part of what you're describing, Jordan. That could also be an example of this avoidance and also like a kind of dissociation from the facts.

There's a flight of fancy here that would also move her further away from these uncomfortable conversations.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I could see that. I think there's probably a lot happening in that daydreaming. So could you guys work on that communication on your own or in therapy? Sure. Would it help? Maybe in the sense that hopefully you guys would step into more honesty and understand each other better, but I think what you're ultimately gonna get clarity on is the fact that you guys just aren't compatible.

And I know that it's like, how am I making that judgment so quickly? Look, I'm not telling you break up with it, but I'm almost telling you that I'm saying I just don't understand how this is the person for you or how you're the person for him. And [00:42:00] so how can that relationship succeed?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, the only way that it succeeds is if he wants to go to therapy and then is doing a ton of work on his own and with her to work through his hesitation around having children or his conflicts around partnership, if that's something he actually wants to work on.

I don't get the sense that he does.

Jordan Harbinger: You mean the guy who didn't even want to go to therapy at all one time? That guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Yeah. So I, I'm totally with you. I think you're also saying to her, though you are not the person you were earlier in this marriage. You're avoiding less, you're seeing things more clearly, you're becoming more responsible.

You're wanting to have these tough but crucial conversations. I think that's part of why you're more easily frustrated now because you're not sweeping as much under the Rugiet or looking the other way. So how can you, as this newer person with new needs and new capacities stay in this relationship if he isn't also evolving in that direction?

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. But again, even if he does meet her there, I'm just not sure that's gonna fix their real problems.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I find it curious that she's asking, how do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be? How do I [00:43:00] stay patient while my husband does the soul searching?

Jordan Harbinger: This is not a question about staying motivated.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So two interesting things about that statement. First, I agree if she has to stay motivated to be the wife she wants to be, then clearly there's a deeper problem here.

Jordan Harbinger: This is not a diet, it's not a gym routine. This is her marriage. This is her life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. These new feelings she's describing. You know, again, getting more frustrated, seeing things that make her wonder if they're a good match.

Even the daydreaming, again, sounds like she's viewing those as personal failures somehow, or things that she needs to overcome through patience, through sheer will instead of symptoms of a problem that needs to be addressed.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think she should consider what it means to be the wife she wants to be.

It sounds like she has a concept of what a good wife is. She mentioned that she enjoyed being a traditional wife, and that is totally fine, but it sounds like coming to terms with the reality of her marriage is making it hard for her to live up to that concept in her mind. So what does it actually mean to be the wife you wanna be?

Does it mean staying in an [00:44:00] unhappy marriage? Does it mean not speaking up when something is difficult for you? Does it mean not asking for help around the house when you're pursuing your master's degree? What does that mean exactly?

Jordan Harbinger: You know what's interesting about this is she's like, I don't mind being a traditional wife.

And I'm like, wait, you're getting a master's degree, you have a full-time job from home and you take care of the house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. Not entirely traditional.

Jordan Harbinger: No. What that sounds like to me is you're being a traditional wife and you have a second income and he plays video games and hockey when he comes home from work.

So you're just doing everything other than his job, which is one of many issues that they gotta deal with. She either needs to reconsider that idea of what a good wife is, or that idea is just not working with this particular partner. And my gut is probably both. So look. If you guys go through this process and your husband's like, you know what?

I've worked through all these things. I do want kids, and you're like, oh, I'm not sure I want your kids, first of all, I get the feeling that's pretty unlikely. It just sounds like he doesn't want kids, he doesn't want to talk about whether he wants kids or not, but if somehow he decides he does well given his history of caving and not [00:45:00] speaking up in order to keep you happy, I would wanna be very sure that he has actually changed his mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But even if he does, that doesn't solve any of the other problems that they have.

Jordan Harbinger: No. So the fact that you're questioning whether you wanna have kids with him is absolutely appropriate and wise, and I would listen to that feeling. I have been unusually blunt with you. I don't think this is your guy and given his personality and his goals or lack of goals and how you guys are relating, I would not have children with this person unless you guys go through a profound process that a leads to both of you growing in some big ways and radically changes his vision for his future in a way that aligns with yours.

If you guys aren't aligned, you're not aligned, that's okay. He's not wrong for not wanting marriage or children. You're not wrong for wanting a life partner and kids. The only thing that's wrong is trying to make an impossible relationship work, especially as you get into your thirties because you're right, time is ticking.

The stakes are high and yeah, I know that's stressful, but it is super important to recognize. Thank you for sharing so much with us. Thank you for letting us be honest with you, setting you a [00:46:00] big hug, and wishing you all the best. All right, and now we wanna knock you up with some highly fen deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by home serve. Owning a home is great until suddenly it is not. It always seems to be the worst timing to deal with a busted pipe or your heater dying during the coldest night of the year. And the problem is regular homeowner's insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of the everyday wear and tear stuff.

Plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns, electrical issues. So when something goes wrong, you're often on your own. That's where HomeServe comes in. They offer and administer different plans that cover various home systems, and it's basically like a subscription for your house. Plans start at just 4 99 a month, and if something covered breaks, you call their twenty four seven hotline and start the repair process.

No panic Googling contractors while your house falls apart. We've definitely had those, oh no moments like when our HVAC stopped working. Home serve is the perfect thing I'd use for that Peace of mind. They've helped customers for over 20 years with a trusted national network of 2,600 local [00:47:00] contractors, plus 4.5 million customers, a 4.8 outta five post repair rating, and an A plus BBB rating.

Jen Harbinger: Help protect your home systems and your wallet with home. Serve against covered repairs. Plans start at just 4 99 a month. Go to home serve.com to find the plan that's right for you. That's home serve.com. Not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4 and 99 cents to $11 99 cents a month. For your first year terms apply on covered repairs.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Drip Drop. I'm big on staying hydrated, especially 'cause I work out regularly. IRI sweat a lot in plain water. It doesn't do it for me. I've been using drip drop for years. It is doctor developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and mind work better. And I notice the difference when I drink it.

I have better energy, which makes me in a better mood and more clear. Drip drop uses a precise ratio of electrolytes and glucose for rapid absorption, delivering three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of leading sports drinks. So you feel results fast without that sugar crash. And the best part is it actually tastes good.

They've got 16 original flavors, [00:48:00] eight zero sugar options, which I personally kind of prefer. So you can stay consistent without loading up on sugar. I keep a bunch of different flavors around and rotate depending on the day. It's become part of my routine to stay super hydrated over here and you can't tell 'cause my voice is totally sharp, but it would be a lot worse if I weren't hydrated.

Jen Harbinger: Right now Drip Drop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. Go to drip drop.com and use promo code Jordan. That's drip drop.com promo code Jordan for 20% off. Stock up now@dripdrop.com and use promo code Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: I've got homes.com is the sponsor for this episode. homes.com knows what when it comes to home shopping.

It's never just about the house of the condo, it's about the homes. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location. It's the neighborhood. If you got kids, it's also schools nearby parks, transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond To bring home shoppers, the in-depth information they need to find the right home.

It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features [00:49:00] comprehensive information about the neighborhood complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio.

They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. homes.com. We've done your homework. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show, visit Jordan harbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week.

Now back to feedback Friday. Alright, time for the recommendation of the week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: Alright, my recommendation for the week is an app called Flighty. This is one of the best apps I've ever used. It's a flight tracker. You basically get an email that says, Hey, your [00:50:00] Delta flight is booked.

You email it to flighty, it tracks the plane, whether it's on time, what baggage claim to go to all your seat information. It is incredible and like it'll tell you your flight is usually 30 minutes late on average from the airport. It comes in onto this airport, yada, yada. I've had this app and I've been at airports where nobody knows what gate it's changed to.

It's not on the board. The flight staff at the desk don't know, but it's in my flighty app. First, I checked into a random flight in a airport in Argentina, and the gate agent, she had no idea what gate it was leaving from, and she's like, well, you gotta wait for the board. Sometimes Flighty was like, it's Gate A.

She's like, oh, that sounds right. We leave from there sometimes. Just an amazing app. I'm a big fan. It'll show you the weather patterns. You get a push notification that's like you're taxing for 18 minutes, you're taking off five minutes late, you're gonna arrive 12 minutes early, like it's just absolutely nuts.

You'll step off the plane, it'll be like baggage claim a meanwhile, everybody is just waiting to find out or it changes and you get a push notification for that too. It's really good. It's way better [00:51:00] than any individual airlines app, and it works well with all of them, so I highly recommend it. Again, it's called flighty.

Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, speaking of airplanes, we got some very passionate responses to our rants on our end of year episode about people who keep the airplane window shades open when the cabin is supposed to stay dark. That was episode 1262, by the way. So we wanted to share a few of them with you and talk about this because this has kicked off a weirdly interesting debate among you guys about what is okay and what is not okay to do on an airplane.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And by the way, even though I've been banned from Reddit,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. Hashtag, what is it? Muppet? Muppet Gate.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hashtag Justice for Jordan. I'm just saying

Jordan Harbinger: thank you. I appreciate the solidarity. Anyway, I'm still lurking in the subreddit. I still love hanging out there. I see the funniest stuff in there, you guys.

Gabriel Mizrahi: reddit.com/r/jordan Harbinger is our subreddit. Still a great place to chime in on episodes. You can tell us what you like, what you did not like, which you guys really seem to enjoy doing. You can share other opinions on questions we take. I always try to forward the links to the people who write in so that they can get [00:52:00] as many angles as possible so you're not just shouting into the void or talking with.

Eight other people who are interested in this topic. You are really actually often helping the people who write in. And I'm the moderator now. As you guys know, Jordan sadly is in Reddit jail and I also am loving reading your takes. By the way, Jordan, is this like a life sentence or what?

Jordan Harbinger: Theoretically?

Yeah. Banned for life. I'm in the Reddit equivalent of a prison in El Salvador.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Can you appeal or is there a Reddit Supreme Court you could take this to or something?

Jordan Harbinger: No, apparently not. For the cardinal sin of calling an apologist for North Korea, a Muppet, I've been put on internet death row, which is hilarious.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm so sorry, dude. Time to get some prison tats though. Maybe the Reddit symbol on your back.

Jordan Harbinger: Lydia. Lydia it up and putting dummies in their place on Reddit was one of my favorite guilty pleasures, I guess you would say. Now I'm just that weirdo standing a hundred yards from the action looking through binoculars.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Like the guy who runs the gas station where they should not shop for a sex toy. Or actually, you know what that reminds me of? You like Leo at the end of Catch Me if you can. Do you remember the scene where he is standing in the snow staring into his mother's house, like watching her new [00:53:00] family of Christmas together wishing he could be in there?

Jordan Harbinger: Literally, I never thought I'd become Frank Abignail of Reddit. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So the first take was in the subreddit from Redditer Monkey Madi, who writes the Airplane Window Rant. On this episode of Feedback. Friday was a little obnoxious. Is this something that people actually care about?

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Gotta stop you right there.

Monkey Maddie. Yes. This is something people actually care about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Boy do I have a podcast for you, monkey Maddie.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that she heard us go a shit about people who do this in her first sentences. Is this something people actually care about? Nah. We were just pretending to be angry about this 'cause we don't have enough to talk about here on the show.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, we didn't have enough dues that week. We gotta invent petty Larry David complaints to fill the time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we care about it. Some of us like to sleep on 14 hour overnight flights.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old, and we just recently went on our first international family vacation. This was a trip that we saved up for four years to be able to afford, and it really was a once in a lifetime thing for us.

My kids were both obsessed with being on an airplane and kept the window up the whole time. [00:54:00] Just awestruck. I also went on an 80th birthday trip with my grandma, and she was very similar and took probably over a hundred pictures of the clouds out of her window.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, she's bringing grandma into this.

She's gonna make me throw granny under the bus. This is not fair, man. It's not fair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We don't get to fly very frequently, so it does have a little bit of whimsy to it. I purposely booked the window seat for the views, and I've also noticed that it helps with motion sickness.

Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. I never heard of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do people really care if someone else's window is up during a flight?

Jordan Harbinger: Again,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think we've established this,

Jordan Harbinger: don't mean to jump the gun Gabe, but the fact that it's just so incomprehensible to her that other people might feel differently about this. I hate to say it, but she's making our point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You mean like the window?

People don't realize that other people might not like it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. This is precisely the solipsism that we're talking about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, solipsism nice.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think you probably taught me that one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That sounds like me.

Jordan Harbinger: Old $5 word when a 50 cent word would do Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's me baby old GA dictionaries.

Jordan Harbinger: But that's what this is, right?

This is so cystic. I [00:55:00] wanna keep my window open when everybody is sleeping at night. Do people actually care about this? It only matters what I care about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey man, you're preaching to the choir, but to be fair, let's hear her out because she's not alone in this actually. So she goes on. If you are that sensitive to light, bring an eye mask.

Am I missing something here?

Jordan Harbinger: I would say yes. The fact that other people exist and feel differently.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just that little detail?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, just that little fact. Also, it's not that we are so sensitive to light, it is that any human is sensitive to light that they did not ask for at night.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It just seems like for two guys who it seems like they try to be very understanding and accepting.

This was kind of a wild and pointless rant.

Jordan Harbinger: I take umbrage at that, Madam.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Umbrage. Indeed. Jordan is on his SAT VAB today. I'm loving this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and I would add she's being very insent

Gabriel Mizrahi: ent. That's one of those words I always forget. Like I think I know what it means, but I'm actually not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: Indifferent. Basically showing a casual lack of concern.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. Well, perfect. That's it. And that's the post. Also

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:00] fascinating. Now, I'm gonna be solipsistic for a moment. I honestly didn't think there would be that many people who felt differently about this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But clearly there are because this debate is still raging today in the subreddit.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, maybe I'm a selfish Muppet. Maybe the mods are right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You might be the Muppet. So. Then we got this email from a listener regarding your and Gabriel's tirade on airplane etiquette. First, you both drove me crazy referring to open window shades as opening windows for sake.

Jordan Harbinger: Really, you're gonna be, you're gonna quibble with the phrasing.

You don't open the window at 30,000 feet. You open the window shade. Get it right guys.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Sorry. Everybody knew what we meant. Literally everyone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can see Jordan's getting angry again.

Jordan Harbinger: This is what happens when I can't call people Muppets on the internet. I can't discharge the rage. It comes out on feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe you can work that into your pitch to the Reddit Supreme Court. To be reinstated, like un banning me is what's best for society.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a public service really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So the letter goes on. Second, I always have my shade open because I'm claustrophobic. Looking around me at all. The closed shades [00:57:00] frightens the hell outta me.

Jordan Harbinger: I can't really argue with that, can I? I can't argue with claustrophobia. I can't argue with motion sickness. Somebody else in the subreddit today mentioned they're deathly afraid of flying and the windows help. So, okay, I hear that. I really do. That didn't occur to me and I would rather people not wanna die on the plane,

Gabriel Mizrahi: even if it's dark outside.

That open shade means that I won't lose it while we're in the air. You're welcome.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm well. I'm No, you are welcome. Actually, that's how this works.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Third, since when are other people responsible for your comfort?

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, I could ask the same question in the other direction, couldn't I? Since. When are other people responsible for yours?

By sacrificing their sleep on an overnight flight. So you don't get nauseous. We are doing this as a favor for you. That's how this is going.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Since when are you exempt from considering the comfort of everybody else on the

Jordan Harbinger: floor? This is why I'm struggling to understand this logic. It's like, no, you don't get it.

I get motion sickness. Okay. Yeah, that's a problem. I have sympathy for that. That doesn't trump everyone else's need to sleep. But this is what these people don't understand. It's crazy. [00:58:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on. I don't go around insisting the shades be open because of my claustrophobia.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, but that's not the same thing is it?

You don't need every shade open to feel okay. Whereas a number of people in your area on the plane do need the shades closed in order to sleep and or watch a movie at night In peace. They're not the same thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She wraps up. You want total darkness, wear a eye mask. This has been a public service announcement signed, feeling the need to upgrade and throw some shade on your need to not open the shades, which by the way is different from opening them all the way.

The confusion about which has left me irate when I already pray that it's not my. To end up your unfortunate seatmate,

Jordan Harbinger: oh boy, this is gonna be hard. All right, I'm putting away the anger,

Gabriel Mizrahi: deep breathing,

Jordan Harbinger: putting back on my logic cap. No more bendable insults. Okay, so first things first, you're both wrong. No, I'm kidding.

Not really. Well, I look, I'm not convinced, but seriously, first things first. If you have a legit medical problem, motion sickness, claustrophobia, I guess you get a pass. I don't want somebody having like vomiting issues. Or [00:59:00] like panic attacks,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? And then they divert the plane 'cause somebody's free. No, and that kind of makes me feel bad because how would you know if somebody who's leaving their window shade open has a legit medical reason?

Like we might be judging people who just need it to be okay.

Jordan Harbinger: I've asked people to close the shades before, as you know, and if I ask someone to close the shade and they were like, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna freak out if I don't keep this open. I'm not gonna be like, sorry, you gotta think about everyone else.

I'm not a monster despite what my Reddit history suggests, but I have to imagine that most people who keep the windows shade open, are you happy? I assume most of them don't have a real medical issue. And also, hey, maybe pop a Xanax for your anxiety disorder. That's what you have if you have to keep this open or you have panic attacks and lose your mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you for that. Now I gotta read 18 emails from people are gonna say that you're forcing them to take pills because you wanna take a nap. That's my problem now.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry Gabe, that is your job. First line of defense for the hate mail sheriff of the subreddit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Volunteer positions, both of them. Also, I just wanna remind everyone this window shade rant, we were only talking about long haul flights where people are gonna be sleeping and the sun is gonna be out the whole time.

I don't care [01:00:00] if people keep the window shades open on a flight from Charleston to Miami or whatever. I'm not trying to be a window Nazi, like for fun just to be difficult.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I think people are conveniently forgetting that or they didn't listen carefully. The pilot or the flight attendant literally comes on the PA and says, keep the window shades closed.

We're flying for 12 hours. People are going to sleep. That's why this is a thing. It's a rule. And that said, look kids, you get a little bit of a pass up to a point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I do agree with that. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm not gonna yell at a 4-year-old for wanting to look out the window on their first plane ride. I'm not a total dick.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I might silently get frustrated. But yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: it helps if they're actually enjoying the view, not just opening it. 'cause they like a little light and then forgot, which is like the guy on your flight who opened it and then was like, I'm gonna go to sleep now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Open the shade and then fell asleep. So he wasn't even enjoying the view.

That's what I don't understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Even the people who are like the worst haters of me right now for this take, even they gotta admit that that's dumb and rude.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It also, by the way, helps if the person is nice. Being nice goes a long way in my book

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. If I said something to the first listener and she'd nicely explained that our kids are having their first [01:01:00] international flight and they wanted to enjoy the view, I'd be like, okay, I hear you.

Hey, if you don't mind, can you close it in a bit when they're not looking out the window just so everybody else can rest. That is totally different from the meat smuggler. On my flight from China,

Gabriel Mizrahi: alleged meat smuggler,

Jordan Harbinger: eh, alleged meat smuggler because I framed him because I was the M back in, but that guy was an a-hole.

If you're cool, I'm cool. Or at least cooler,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but okay. Let's say that if you book the window seat, you do control the window shade, which is what a lot of people are arguing and that's just how it is. Fine. Can you enjoy it during takeoff and landing? Can you enjoy it for 20 minutes here and there? Take your 600 pictures of clouds that I promise you, you will never look at again.

And then can you close it like it's not the Mona Lisa, it's clouds or ocean or fields or whatever, over and over again. Do you need to stare at them for six hours at three in the morning while everyone's trying to sleep? I don't think so.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, though, I'm a parent. I get it. Kids get a pass of these things and despite my general tone and our friend here is rather insent one.

I might add. I'm sure you and your family are very nice people. I understand your kids have an [01:02:00] opportunity to enjoy the miracle of flight. I'm, I'm with it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. Now I feel like a dick for being mad at children. But don't they also have an opportunity to learn that they are not flying private?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

That they're sharing the flight. Yeah. There's a reason I tell my son not to yell and scream on the plane because we're not the only ones there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They wanna look out the window and other people wanna do other things like get home, not brutally exhausted or watch. Uncut gems at 30,000 feet without the glare of a thousand sons ruining the picture.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's another thing. The person in the second letter is bring an eye mask, which like, fine, that's helpful, but,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and I do always bring mine, but that's not really the point, is it?

Jordan Harbinger: No, this isn't just about people sleeping, watching a movie, reading a book, or even just having a conversation in a dark cabin.

All of those also get disrupted when one person opens their window shade. It's very jarring,

Gabriel Mizrahi: as evidenced by the photo somebody posted in our subreddit today of a perfectly dark cabin and a stabbing pin of light ruining the entire cabin from one person's window.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so jarring and suddenly 17 people in the area are forced to endure a fricking [01:03:00] generational eclipse.

So it's missing the point to say it's your fault for not bringing an eye mask. I have one. It's just that it's not gonna block all the light and everyone else has to bring one so that you can look out the window like everyone else has to prepare for you to not follow the rules.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So this is really what this debate is about for me, how to negotiate the balance between one's own interests and those of other people when you're in public.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. The eternal question.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The eternal question. Look, I concede that booking the window seat grants you a certain privilege, but at a minimum you have to admit that the enjoyment of that privilege has an impact on everyone else. When almost every other passenger is sleeping or watching a movie, especially on a long haul flight, one passenger's whimsical window experience is a pretty clear impingement on everyone else.

Like it's not just me. I've seen other people get angry about it.

Jordan Harbinger: In all the cases we are referring to with our take here, it violates the explicit request of the flight staff on the flight.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? So are we saying that one of the privileges of buying a window seat is that it exempts you from being thoughtful about other people and respectful of the [01:04:00] rules?

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like if you took that argument to its logical conclusion, it's I book the window seat, so I'm allowed to do whatever makes me happy. Even if it bothers everyone else. Open a can of tuna while you're at it. Have some lunch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good analogy. Which that is what some of these folks are saying, right?

Someone in the common set, and I quote the way I see it with most airlines, I paid extra for that window seat. The window is mine to control. That's what I paid extra for.

Jordan Harbinger: So if that's how you view it, I guess we can't argue with you. I just don't look at life that way. I try to be considerate. Yeah, I guess you're exempt from that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have another analogy. I always book an aisle seat because I have long legs, right? I like to get up. I like to stretch a lot during the flight. I don't like being boxed in. That's what I like, which means I often have to get up to let the people in the middle seat and the window seat out, right? Sometimes they even awake me up when I'm sleeping to go do that.

That's unpleasant. But I don't get angry about it. I'm not saying like, well, I bought the aisle seat and I paid extra for it. So my use of the aisle is all that matters and everybody else can go fly a kite because that's not the case. We're all sharing the flight and we're all equally [01:05:00] real. So why should it be any different for the window seat people?

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting argument. I feel like the people who wrote in would say that's not a true analogy because window does not equal aisle. They're different privileges or something. They're gonna find a way to carve themselves out of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They're different privileges, but they're equivalent in that they both confer unique benefits that are important to the person who's enjoying them, that you pay extra for, and the way that you enjoy them has an impact on everybody else.

And those people do not have much of a say in how you enjoy them.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Can't really argue with that. But look, I appreciate that you're pointing out that we are generally pretty understanding people and then we eviscerated these window shade people. And I hear that if we were being more compassionate, I might've said, okay, this guy wasn't malicious, he was just clueless, and he doesn't deserve our hatred, just our gentle criticism.

For all we know, he'd feel bad about ruining everyone's sleep. And that's a fair point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is a fair point, but I would also argue that we were not being unempathetic. We were directing our empathy to everybody else in that situation. IE, the many other people, this guy affected with his thoughtlessness.

Jordan Harbinger: But then the loop I get [01:06:00] stuck in is I honestly can't decide whether unselfaware people deserve to be let off the hook because yeah, how can you be held accountable for something you weren't even aware of? But then being self-aware in this very basic way, it's also just part of being a decent human being.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I fully agree. At a certain point, you just have to acknowledge the unfortunate fact that you are not the only person who exists in economy class,

Jordan Harbinger: but then the people who wrote in would say, exactly, we exist too, so why should we have to give up our thing for everyone else?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think what we're saying is you don't have to entirely give it up.

Can you just factor other people in? Like you get a little window time and I get my sleeps like that's all we're saying.

Jordan Harbinger: Another analogy just occurred to me. If you're on the subway and somebody starts blasting their Bluetooth speaker and you ask them not to, and they're like, Hey, look, sorry I have a sensory disorder, or I'm autistic, or I can't wear headphones, the sensation bothers me.

I need music to self-regulate. So they blast their speaker on the subway or at a restaurant and their argument is, why am I responsible for other people's comfort? Just wear earplugs or wear your own AirPods if you don't like it, yes, your [01:07:00] autism or sensory disorder or whatever it is, is real. Of course, I understand that, but you're not the only other person on the flight.

Our thing is also real. And your fulfillment of your need, your enjoyment of your benefit, that has a negative externality for everyone else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Multiple other people.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, there are more of us. So like it or not, you gotta adapt unless you just don't care about anybody but yourself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. I also understand that a true disability does change the situation though.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, okay. Yes and no. I understand. Some people on the spectrum, for example, have certain unique needs or triggers, just like our friends who have claustrophobia, motion sickness, fear of flying, but they also have to function in a world with many more people who do not have those triggers. So I think most people would agree that it is unreasonable to impose the requirements of those needs on everyone else, even if we sometimes make certain accommodations for them.

And that's for people who have a true condition or disorder. Why should it be different for people who just have a preference? It's like, I wanna look at the clouds. Screw you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, excellent point. Well said.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess our opponents [01:08:00] here on this issue would say because that preference is not only legit, but also explicitly part of the experience of the service we paid for.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. So just to take your analogy one step further, if you're at a public park and there is a group blasting their shitty music or whatever, and it's bothering everybody else, they could say, sorry, I pay my taxes. I'm allowed to blast my music at the park. Okay, you might be allowed to blast your music, but A, that doesn't mean that it is in incredibly annoying to everybody else.

And B, I also pay my taxes and I wanna enjoy silence. So why does your noise trump my silence?

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And your music isn't confined to your picnic basket. Just like the light from your window is not confined to your seed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just if you open tuna, that smell is not confined to your area. So yeah, if I were in the minority here, I would play by these same rules myself.

Happily. Also, this just occurred to me, part of what grinds my gears about this is that. Keeping the cabin dark and opening a window shade are not actually equivalent. They serve very different purposes. Keeping the cabin dark on a long haul flight allows the majority of people on the flight to do [01:09:00] whatever they want in the dark except look out the window of course.

Whereas opening a window shade allows the minority of people sometimes just one person to do one thing specifically that only benefits them and also detracts from the majority's ability to do their thing. So keeping the cabin dark on a long haul flight when it's sunny out, it is actually the fair thing to do both from like a utilitarian standpoint and also from a democratic one because it's not prescribing a particular experience.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's allowing for multiple ones and I'm sure we could all agree that that is the more just scenario, even if you enjoy the view.

Jordan Harbinger: I see that philosophy degree is coming in handy, Gabe,

Gabriel Mizrahi: that's all I have to say on this matter. I'm done.

Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm also probably gonna be, well, no I'm not.

We can argue this until the cows come home and I guess you can go round and round in circles, but to close out, I wanna read just one more post in our subreddit that made me laugh. So January four, seven. Seven writes, dear Jordan and Gabe, adding a new level of annoyance with people, keeping the shade open on a plane.

Last week I was on a flight. It was a short flight, probably nobody was trying to sleep much, but [01:10:00] only one shade was open to the Florida sunset. What made this one special? The lady in the seat was wearing a rhinestone cowboy hat, creating a disco ball effect in the cabin for the entire two hours to Pennsylvania.

I had no idea this was an annoyance of mine. Still love Ys, but thanks for that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This made me laugh so hard. Also, yins. I had never heard of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Me neither. So I had to look it up. Apparently Yins is slang from Western Pennsylvania, so like Pittsburgh ease, it's basically their version of y'all. Anyway, so ridiculous.

That would be fun, right? Because it's like you're during a day, it's two hours. Who cares? You got a rhinestone effect.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I honestly don't know if the rhinestone cowboy hat makes this better or worse.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, on the one hand, worse, right? 'cause not only has she opened the window, but she's basically turned the entire plane into a lava lamp kaleidoscope or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. This lady's basically the magnifying glass, lighting the rest of the passenger ants on fire. But

Jordan Harbinger: on the other hand, if you're gonna do it, you know,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, way to create a vibe, I guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And give you a funny story. And it was during the day, so it sounds like it was inconsequential. I can't wait for all the hate mail we're gonna receive for going hard in the paint on this one, which [01:11:00] means all the hate mail Gabe's gonna have to deal with

Gabriel Mizrahi: yet another impingement.

We did not ask for this guys. Okay? We are just truth tellers. You understand?

Jordan Harbinger: People get fired up about the look. You think we're fired up. There are people in Reddit that are like, I'm unsubscribing because of how entitled you are about the window shade thing. And it's okay. See you later.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Somebody called us, what was it like entitled Boomers, which is just factually inaccurate.

That

Jordan Harbinger: guy. It's like, I'm not gonna listen to you for a while. And it's like, are you sure? 'cause that's a little, that's a little unhinged.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I hope he's hearing this right now, being like, I guess I didn't,

Jordan Harbinger: I might have jumped the gun on that one. Yeah, now we love you. We hope you come back to the show. But for real, dude, chill out.

And we should do the same. But maybe this is better than being on Reddit, man, over there, I get punished for saying the true thing right now. I don't, you know, kind of just can go off.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. Because I don't know, it violates the explicit rules and affects other people. Look at that. What a concept.

Jordan Harbinger: Facts. And I have to accept them 'cause I'm a reasonable human being most of the time. Go back and check out our episode with Jamie Mustard and our out of the loop on Venezuela. If you haven't heard those yet, the best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to [01:12:00] build the same thing for yourself in our course. Six Minute Networking. It's a free course. I don't need your credit card number. It's not schmoozy, it's not awkward. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at Six Minute Networking dot com. The drills really take a few minutes a day.

I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. People build relationships before you need them. You can find it all at Six Minute Networking dot com. Advertisers discounts ways to support the show on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Bag's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

Remember, we [01:13:00] rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

You are about to hear a preview with Ken Burns who says The real American revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradictions we are still debugging 250 years later.

JHS Trailer: A good story neutralizes the binary. Yes and no. You know, you're bad, left, right, young, old, rich, poor, whatever the dialectic is you're involved in.

A good story can sort of neutralize it and go, oh wow, I didn't know that. There's no test. We'd share with you our process of discovery. So all the stuff I've said about the revolution, I had no idea going in. And I am so overwhelmed with the joy of acquiring it, that giving it away feels even better. The ideas.

Are really, really powerful. At the heart of this, the idea that you [01:14:00] could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked the land for a thousand years for somebody else, and all of a sudden you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this. And literate democracy is a really messy form of government, but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny or authoritarian certainty.

Democracy's messy 'cause you actually have to listen to people that you disagree and you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of, of having that. America comes out of violence, it's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist? Would I be a patriot?

What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life and all that I've accumulated in my life? My fortune would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Jordan Harbinger: For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story.

Check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns. This [01:15:00] episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school.