1176: Earthing | Skeptical Sunday

1176: Earthing | Skeptical Sunday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynn. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

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Just visit Jordan [00:01:00] harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Has anyone ever told you to go touch grass? Was it a sarcastic jab or an actual suggestion to reconnect with the earth? These days, a lot of us are pretty cut off from nature. We live in cities, we work under fluorescent lights.

We exercise on treadmills indoors instead of, you know, on actual trails. Most of us anyway. Some people believe this disconnect might be messing with us, and that literally touching grass is just what the doctor should be ordering. There's a theory called earthing or grounding that says, physically connecting to the earth can realign our bodies with its natural rhythms and even improve our health.

Sounds a bit crunchy, but is it, can barefoot walks in the park actually heal us somehow, or is this just another glossy wellness trend? Joining me today is Jessica Wynn to help dig into this muddy topic. All right, let's get grounded. Jessica, are you like grounded right now, man?

Jessica Wynn: I mean, I mean, yeah, I think we're both pretty grounded.

Mm-hmm. But maybe not in the barefoot, in the woods kind of way. That's [00:02:00] trending.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've seen the posts walking barefoot to cure everything from anxiety to arthritis. Let's start with the basics. Are earthing and grounding, is that the same thing, or is there nuance here?

Jessica Wynn: It's close, but not quite the same thing.

So grounding is the broader term. It includes stuff like breath work, mindfulness, improv, warmups. People in the grounding scene. Call it vitamin G.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's fun. That sounds like a discontinued nineties energy drink. That actually, you know. Oh, it does. One of those things like, Ooh, we had to take that off the shelf because you know, the colon thing,

Jessica Wynn: bright green?

Mm-hmm. Ecto cooler. Yes. Yes, gross. But now earthing is more specific, so it means actual skin to earth contact. Barefoot walks, lake swims, hugging trees, that kind of thing. So all earthing is grounding, but not all grounding is earthing.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, got it. Earthing is the dirt on your feet thing. Grounding is more indoors with shoes on and Anya playing on the Yeah.

Okay. [00:03:00] Correct, correct. Alright.

Jessica Wynn: Earthing takes the grounding concept and adds a big dose of pseudoscience and wellness, so grounding's about presence. And unlike earthing, it doesn't have to be physical. Earthing takes that concept and just puts a lot of wellness branding as like a cure all for what ELs us.

Jordan Harbinger: I see.

Jessica Wynn: So Earthing proposes that the earth has a negative charge and when you touch it, electrons enter your body and neutralize free radicals. Balance the body's charge. That's the belief anyway,

Jordan Harbinger: right? Balancing your charge. So we're smartphones or Teslas now basically from the sound of it.

Jessica Wynn: Kinda okay. I mean, the idea is that being disconnected from earth's electrons causes everything from insomnia to chronic pain.

Touching dirt equals healing. Allegedly,

Jordan Harbinger: whenever anything cures everything, I'm always super s even more skeptical than I usually am. Sure. Okay. And yet, when I walk barefoot, all I get is weird looks and splinters.

Jessica Wynn: Right, right. Me too. I mean, a lot of this is [00:04:00] anecdotal, like I sleep better, I have more energy.

But when you dig into the science, it's a way more goop thing than peer reviewed.

Jordan Harbinger: What do you mean goop? Like Gwyneth Paltrow Goop.

Jessica Wynn: Oh yeah, her, her lifestyle brand that capitalizes on wellness trends and convinces affluent women to stick jade eggs in their vaginas with no evidence it does anything.

Jordan Harbinger: I've been wondering where to get some vagina eggs.

I'm on the market actually.

Jessica Wynn: Well look at you. There's plenty online. Okay. I mean, their site is, it's wild. It also states that the company is called Goop because the word means nothing but can mean anything. Which describes their science too, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Not the flex you all think it is, it means nothing, but it could mean anything.

Buy this.

Jessica Wynn: Right, right, right. So along with your egg, you can buy a Vesper, two vibrator necklace for. Those urges on the go. So it's a

Jordan Harbinger: vibrator around your neck. Is it dishwasher safe too? It better be. Oh my

Jessica Wynn: God. Yeah. It [00:05:00] better be for a hundred bucks and yikes. And guess what? You can buy Earthing gear on the Goop site too.

For just $800. You can own their Earthing jacket.

Jordan Harbinger: What does that even look like? I'm imagining kind of like the sod in my front yard sewn into a nice cardigan or vest.

Jessica Wynn: That might be more interesting. It's pretty unimpressive. It looks just like something La Larry David wears. Yeah. Such a, such a grounded

Jordan Harbinger: guy.

So who, who started this whole barefoot movement? I know it wasn't Gwyneth Paltrow.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, no, definitely not. It was a guy named Clint Ober and he used to work in the cable TV industry grounding systems back in the 1980s and nineties. One day he had a light bulb moment. And thought, what if humans like electronics need grounding too?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So not a scientist came up with e theory and was like, this is probably true, and here we are. All right. Color me. Surprised.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Not even close to a scientist. Uh, he seems like a really nice guy though. I listen to a lot of, uh, interviews with him.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Jessica Wynn: He just has [00:06:00] no medical or scientific background and.

Made a leap from coaxial cables to curing cancer with grass, and he's managed to build an entire movement around it.

Jordan Harbinger: So cable guy rebrands as wellness guru. That is, he was ahead of his time, I think. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: America

Jordan Harbinger: incredible.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it gets better. He made a documentary, he wrote a book. He's launched tons of products.

Jordan Harbinger: We're talking about 'em right now. You and I are. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: We're

Jordan Harbinger: talking about them. So is there any science behind the claims? Like, oh, it only does this, but it doesn't do the rest of the things? Or is it just kind of like, eh,

Jessica Wynn: it's kind of like, eh. Okay. I mean, there's barely any science. So yes, earth has an electrical field, yes.

And yes, our bodies run on electrical signals like our brainwaves, our heartbeats, all of that. The leap from electrons are real. To touch grass, it'll heal your pancreas. That's a big one. And

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Jessica Wynn: touting that standing barefoot on a lawn balances your internal voltage. It's, it's, it's worth [00:07:00] things. Short circuit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, of course, look, getting fresh air, taking a walk, it feels good, but it seems complicated and confusing for it to be a cure of something if it cured chronic illness. Summer camp, first of all would've eradicated childhood disease. And here we so, yeah, come on. Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it's a very niche subject in the scientific world that it just pretty much dresses up this simple idea in complicated language to make it sound legit.

So it takes this basic truth. Nature can be good for you and puts the lab coat on it. So ING's a lot of things, but no matter what you read, it is not going to save your life. And that's what big believers think it can do. But why? What do

Jordan Harbinger: they base this on? Why do people trust this guy in the theory at all?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, I guess it's the same reason anyone buys into any wellness trend. Yeah, it sounds good. Sure. And people want to feel better. So after listening to all these interviews with Ober, watching his Earthing documentary, [00:08:00] skimming his Earthing website, I'll be honest, I can't make heads or tails out of the claims.

The gist that I get was Ober lived in this magical place called Sedona, Arizona, and one day it just hit him, we need the Earth.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, not the most scientific explanation. It's funny, someone reads this and is like, oh, he lives in Sedona, and one day it hit him. Okay. I might need more. I might need more in order to swipe my credit card.

Jessica Wynn: I think it was probably a really supportive community Yes, too for this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But

Jessica Wynn: the whole thing, it's just based on cherry picked facts and wishful thinking. So yes, connecting with nature's important. Yes, these electrons exist, but they don't jump into our body and heal inflammation. That is just not how physics works.

Since 1917, scientists have known Earth does have a negative charge. Then about 60 years ago, it was proven the polar winds pushed charged particles like real high into the atmosphere. [00:09:00] These facts are all threaded into the Earthing philosophy. And then in 2024, NASA accidentally gave the movement some more ammo.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. It's like the UFO thing. So what, so NASA's in on this now, tell me what's going on.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, I mean, not on purpose. Uh, a NASA funded rocket team confirms something called the ambi Polar electric field. This is a planet wide electric field that keeps the balance to the earth's charge.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, fine. But cable guy, Ober was not on the rocket team over at nasa.

I'm gonna guess.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Shocking. But no,

Jordan Harbinger: and the barefoot crowd heard electric field and balancing earth's charge and was like, boom.

Jessica Wynn: Science. Yeah. Like,

Jordan Harbinger: uh, breaking bad

Jessica Wynn: pretty much.

Jordan Harbinger: And they're just like, yeah, science bitch. What is it? Science bitch, fine. I'll buy your $800 jacket.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, exactly. It's just.

Post-OC justification at its finest.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: I mean, the ambi polar field, it's real and it's pretty cool. It confirms [00:10:00] there's atmospheric electricity that's always present, and that as long as there's no thunderstorms, the air above the surface of the earth will be positively charged while the Earth's is negative.

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with whether kicking off your flip flops is going to cure rheumatoid arthritis.

Jordan Harbinger: Right? But people kick off their shoes and socks and dig their toes into the dirt and they're like, ah, I'm getting, I'm getting my miracle cure. That you just feel the electrons flowing out or in, or whatever.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, you can't deny it. It does feel good psychologically, but it is not medicine for diseases. People find it easier to blame our modern woes on our footwear. You know, rubber soles are the villain in the earthing world. Earthing advocates say rubber souls insulate us from earth's healing charge.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. So they think this electrical field can balance the entire planet, but it can't get it through Nike's.

Okay. Got

Jessica Wynn: it. Right, right. That's the idea. I mean, the theory is that when your skin comes into contact with [00:11:00] the ground. Electrons carry up into your body and have a therapeutic effect.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay,

Jessica Wynn: so everything's just promoting this unsubstantiated claim that we need this contact because our body's building up excess electrical charge from living in the modern world and wearing rubber soles.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, I'm obviously not convinced, but when did we start wearing rubber soles anyway? Is it, I guess, how old are shoes with rubber soles? I don't even know.

Jessica Wynn: It's actually not that old. So Charles Goodyear, uh, discovered vulcanization of rubber in 1839, and that's the process of heating natural rubber with sulfur.

And it, it just makes it tough and durable. So that led to the rubber soles in the late 18 hundreds. The first rubber soled shoes were called sand shoes. They came out of the Liverpool Rubber Company, which was started by John Boyd. Dunlop.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, so Goodyear and Dunlop are, these are the tire guys. Yeah. Yeah.

Com Yeah. Those

Jessica Wynn: guys.

Jordan Harbinger: So those guys were all about contact to the ground. So to them I what? Our [00:12:00] shoes are just feet tires. Yeah. Is that what we're working with? Okay.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a great way to, to think of it. We. It was sort of the, the testing for tires, I guess. All

Jordan Harbinger: right.

Jessica Wynn: And like tires, they're great at keeping you grounded in a mechanical sense, but not the way the wellness folks mean it.

And then, okay. By 1892, the US Rubber Company created like the modern, comfortable fabric made sports shoes with a rubber sole more like we know today. They called them sneakers because the quietness of the rubber soles allowed you to sneak up on other people.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a weird thing. Like, hey, we made these shoes and they're so quiet, you can use them to murder people.

Cool. Okay, so people think protecting our feet in this way is a bad thing and that I should just stop wearing shoes. Is that where this takes us? 'cause I'm not gonna do that.

Jessica Wynn: That's where people stand in the movement. But you know, humans invented shoes for a reason. They protect our feet. So if your earthing practice involves walking around [00:13:00] barefoot, it's obvious you're risking injury, allergies, infections, but the no shoe philosophy, it goes way back before rubber soles.

You know, think traditional Chinese medicine, they were really big on walking barefoot to stimulate some flow of energy throughout the body. Being Barefoot's also a feature of many indigenous cultures around the world, and several religions require devotees to remove their shoes, to pray or enter a place of worship.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. But they're not doing it to absorb electrons or whatever. Right. This is a cleanliness thing.

Jessica Wynn: Right, exactly. So it's more about respect and ritual. However, they were imagining energy flow. But the modern earthing crowd claims being separated from the earth beneath our feet is causing chronic illness and inflammation.

Autoimmune diseases, mental health issue, basically everything.

Jordan Harbinger: So what's going on when we walk across the carpet and get shocked is that grounding me somehow? 'cause that used to happen a ton in Michigan.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, that's just static electricity. [00:14:00] Your body builds up a charge, positive or negative. And when you touch something grounded like a doorknob.

Zap your body's discharging.

Jordan Harbinger: First things first. The doorknob is also not touching the ground. So there goes their whole theory. Right. It's in, it's encased in wood, which is not a, it's just as insulating as rubber, but whatever. I, my point is I discharge all the time.

Jessica Wynn: Oh,

Jordan Harbinger: gross.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Bad Jordan. But anyway, we get that little shock because our hair and skin are poor conductors.

Jordan Harbinger: So all this talk, it actually reminds me. This has nothing to do with the episode, but I, I went to a Bikram yoga class, which just like super hot, sweaty yoga. I didn't go with Gabriel. A lot of people think, oh, well this is pre, pre hot yoga with Gabriel. I went there and it was carpeted the room 'cause it was a commercial lease and they probably just wouldn't let the tenant take, you know, it was sub gross.

So imagine how the floor smells,

Jessica Wynn: no

Jordan Harbinger: nonstop sweat, just soaking in there for multiple hours every day, all day. Super hot and barefoot, everyone. So yeah, the whole room smelled like if you just [00:15:00] boiled distilled foot juice down for a few hours, the whole room wreaked of that and you'd open it. This piping hot 99 whatever, 105 degree air feet air, which is waft out into your face.

Jessica Wynn: Oh, this is like a renin chimpy scene. It's, it's so gross.

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, that has nothing to do with this episode. Getting a shock from a doorknob has not happened to me in a long time since I moved to California from Michigan. And I, I get Is that something to do with the humidity in the air?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it makes sense because exactly the more dry the air is, the less conductive it becomes and static builds up so.

We've known about static electricity since at least ancient Greece.

Jordan Harbinger: In ancient Greece, though they didn't have balloons to rub on kids' heads or wall to wall carpeting. Back then. Do people know I haven't, you know, I haven't rubbed a balloon on a kid's head in a while. A good minute. I gotta, it'll still work.

Yeah, it'll, it still works, works. Its even in California. The

Jessica Wynn: physics is still there. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right.

Jessica Wynn: But, uh, I mean, yeah, at ancient Greece, they did have that, but they did have rabbit fur and sticks of amber, and they knew they could rub them together and create. This magic static [00:16:00] electricity to impress three year olds.

Ah, nice. So static electricity, it's all around us. It always has been. We know for sure the Earth's surface has a negative charge and the upper atmosphere has a positive charge. There's a weak current flowing between them. Thunderstorms can amp that up, you know, you can kind of feel it during a storm for sure.

Yeah. But jumping to the conclusion that this will cure cancer or or cure anything, it's just. Irresponsible.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Uh, still though, people say they feel better when they walk barefoot outside or whatever, and that's what the Irving community gets into. So it's just all like anecdotal placebo stuff, probably.

Jessica Wynn: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's relaxing, right? Mm-hmm. Going outside and walking barefoot or not. It's good for you psychologically, for sure. You're outside, you're moving, you're in the sun. You're not in front of a screen. Yeah. I mean, that's just basic wellness. It's not proof of electron therapy.

Jordan Harbinger: Right?

Jessica Wynn: So spending time in nature, it's linked to mental health benefits. But again, [00:17:00] the idea that chronic illnesses are caused by an electrical imbalance between us and Earth, it makes no sense. Yeah, we share electrons with everything we touch, but there's just no scientific evidence that it'll cure inflammation through your toes.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but Earthing is pointing at real electrical stuff in nature, correct?

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, totally. Nature's full of real electrical phenomena, which the earthing community points to. Positive and negative charges have been vital in nature long before humans invented a way to make it power our modern lives. Fees, for instance, they build up a positive charge when they fly.

This is how they stick to the flowers. It's why they get covered in pollen. That's all static electricity. In the show notes, let's link to, there's this really cool article I read about robot bees and they get charged with static electricity to mimic what's going on in nature.

Jordan Harbinger: That's cool.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it, it's, it's cool.

But, but that kind of charge, it's not gonna heal [00:18:00] anything.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Nobody's selling bee charged sandals. Yes. Don't,

Jessica Wynn: don't give them ideas.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So,

Jessica Wynn: and here's where I get stuck. So most of the studies on Earthing, they're either just not peer reviewed or they have super small sample sizes, and they'll use terms like I.

Energy from the earth, which isn't exactly measurable in a lab,

Jordan Harbinger: right? It's not the real kind of e energy, like energy from the earth. So you mean electrons? Well, you know, so it's like, this is like physics, cosplay. You just feel it, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like physics cosplay or something. It's like, oh, well, the vibe of, and it's like, eh, not science.

Jessica Wynn: Definitely. Yeah. They, they throw around real science terms, like ions, electrons, grounding, but they're twisting them, so they sound like proof. These studies that Ober did and the ones his websites sites, they make no sense. So according to Karen Livesey, who's an associate professor of theoretical physics at the University of Newcastle.

She [00:19:00] says grounding has long been used as a physics term where it refers to the process of removing a buildup of too much positive or negative charge. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's like what you would do with an item. So the idea is in earthing is that a lack of grounding is making humans sick. Okay. But that's maybe, what does she think about that?

Jessica Wynn: Right, right. So, but Dr. Livesey, she's calling bullshit on this. So she's saying, our cells, our neurons, our immune responses. They all communicate through electrical charge, but it takes more than static and rubber soles to mess that up. Mm-hmm. Right. We're highly evolved. The thing that gets cited incorrectly is that there are certain diseases and poisons that are cured by the right charge.

Like okay. It gets confusing because in things like epilepsy, that is caused by an excess burst of electrical activity in the brain. Spider and snake venom can interfere with the movement of our electrical charges, which can damage or even kill neurons, which that's what causes paralysis when you get bit.

But she's [00:20:00] emphasizing that quote. From a physics point of view, there's no process I can think of where a surplus or lack of electrons on the surface of our body could influence our health. There are 10 octillion. That's a one with 28 zeros after it. 10 octillion electrons in our body. Being short by a few electrons is not going to change how our bodies use electricity to work.

Jordan Harbinger: So walking barefoot, not exactly a medical breakthrough. This is good news, I suppose for us who are wondering how we were gonna navigate an airport bathroom with no shoes on. Oh, gross. Yeah. You ever see the people who are on the plane and go to the bathroom and there's socks and you're like, oh, you are psycho.

Oh

Jessica Wynn: my God. RFK.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it just, your socks are absorbing everything that's on that bat. That's not water. That's all I'm saying. Are there studies unearthing that offer any kind of proof, though? I mean, surely they cite stuff. What are they try, they're trying to prove it, right? Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: right. It's all kind of phony.

So on oversight [00:21:00] earthing.com. They claim there's 26 scientific studies, but I dug into those earthing and grounding studies, and the majority are authored by all the same handful of people and the few that are peer reviewed. When you click on a reference, it takes you to another study with the same exact set of authors.

So it's incredibly deceiving. They cite each other in this feedback loop. They use the vague language. The sample sizes are small. They'd get kicked out of a high school science fair.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Jessica Wynn: So reading a bit of those studies, I think anyone with some research literacy would realize it's just objectively bad science Uhhuh, but they're on the same database as all the other peer reviewed stuff.

So for everyday people just looking for cures and relief and trying in good faith to do their own research, it's pretty misleading.

Clip I: Do your own research. Don't believe the mainstream media. Do your own research. [00:22:00] That's what I did during the corn times. I bought a laboratory beakers and test tubes and a white smock.

I got a vintage Petri dish off the eBay. And, uh, I got all my, uh, clinical trials lined up and my double blind case studies, and then I got like 300 or so COVID patients off of, uh, Craigslist ad promising free cheese sandwiches. And, and then, uh. Then I just drowned them as witches because what the fuck do I know about research?

A scientist do your own research in the book? No, I just sewed her up in a burlap sack of stones and I shucked her in the lake. What the do I know? Just straight up Salem Witch trial. Get the drink lady. If she doesn't drown. COVID is a hoax.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's misleading. It raises a bigger question, [00:23:00] who's vetting what ends up in these journals?

And there are just tens of thousands of medical journals. So many are questionable. Shouldn't there be more vetting? I think I did a show on this a long time ago about how most of the stuff has never been replicated. Or tried to replicate. So you just have no idea if the science is real and half the stuff that get more than half the stuff that gets published.

Yeah. It's overwhelming. Yeah, it's overwhelming. It seems like on the Earthing site, they went through a lot of effort to make this look scientific when it definitely isn't with the whole circular citation thing and like they, they're just kind of hoping. People go, look, there's science on there. I mean, I'm not gonna read it, but you can.

And then you, you actually did. And it's like this is not real science.

Jessica Wynn: Right, exactly. People are trusting when your graphic designer's good, you know? Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: totally.

Jessica Wynn: But a lot gets through the cracks. I mean, my basic rules for anyone out there diving into their own scientific and medical research is. If you see an exclamation mark in a paper, which a lot of these have, you know you've got a problem.

If it draws conclusions in the intro or cause something a miracle, [00:24:00] run, delete. Like just don't read it further. The data should speak for itself. It's a typical wellness thing where there's claims people can relate to versus the evidence from studies that no one wants to read. Or the voice of someone like Yale neurologist, Dr.

Steven Novella, who critically examined the concept of earthing and grounding and found zero legitimacy in its claims.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Jessica's Vagina Egg Emporium. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quilt Mind. Have you ever noticed that LinkedIn is kind of the last corner of the internet where smart people actually go to read things, and it's not total garbage.

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It's not cringey. It is very practical. It's a very bingeable course. I designed it that way. It takes a few minutes a day. It'll make you a better connector, better at work, better at home, better with your friends. And by the way, many of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the [00:28:00] course. Come on and join us.

You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again for free@sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. I mean, to be fair, if people are reading these BS studies, believing them because they look official, I actually think that's understandable. Most people aren't gonna read a study, and if they do, they're gonna go well.

There's certainly a lot here. They're not gonna go, oh, this one sighted the other one, and it's the same guy. Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't even know if I would bother to dig that deep. That's why I have you, honestly. Yeah,

Jessica Wynn: right. I mean, you're not going, it's exhausting to go through these studies Yeah. And see the links and if it, you know, seems plausible in a tiny little meme, you're gonna believe that.

But I mean, people also have to have some accountability if you are not getting medical treatment, because you've seen research that says, just go for a walk barefoot. I mean, that's dangerous.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Plus, you know, our minds are powerful too, and we've all felt our shoulders drop out in nature. So it seems plausible, but we're just, we're just [00:29:00] fooling ourselves,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

As a placebo at best. So static electricity is not building up in me like I'm a Tesla coil while I sit here at this desk.

Jessica Wynn: No, definitely not. Static is temporary. It's just like rubbing that balloon on the kid's head. You know, the charge builds. You touch something, it releases. This happens all the time without us even realizing it.

And there's zero health benefits. It's just sparks and frizzy hair.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. So the whole earthing thing is pseudoscience. Yeah. And yet, earthing techniques are practiced sworn by. I know. Health people that bring, they carry this crap with them when they go. I don't, it's just silly to me, but surprise, surprise.

People are putting eggs in their badge, so whatever.

Jessica Wynn: Right, right, right. I mean, yeah, it seems intuitive. The whole idea of it. You know, in our natural state, humans were more in contact with the ground. People want that to matter in ways it doesn't, and so it's easy to believe we somehow lost something.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Appeal to nature fallacy. Appeal to the ancients fallacy. Right, exactly. Basically, if something's natural, it's better and it's healthy. If it's [00:30:00] unnatural, that's bad, and if the ancestors or the ancients did something, it's gotta be better than what we do now. Something, something wisdom of the ages that's been lost, so.

Yeah, I tried to get in touch with Nature recently and I set up the slip and slide for my kids. Oh no. And I can assure you that is not grounded. 'cause I, it's one of those inflatable ones and I was like, oh, I'm gonna take a flying leap. Yeah. The weight limit's a hundred pounds. Oh no. So, or 105 pounds. I am more than 105 pounds.

So I didn't land on a cushy and inflatable slip and slide. I landed on the ground. Oh the turf hard. And I got a purple butt cheek.

Jessica Wynn: Oh my. I

Jordan Harbinger: don't know why I shared that at all. That has nothing, again, has nothing to do with the episode. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: But some earthers might. Tell you that counts. That was you were earthing.

Okay, great.

Jordan Harbinger: You know,

Jessica Wynn: I mean, even the Earthing community isn't on the same page. You know, some say you absolutely have to touch Earth directly, dirt, grass, ocean falling off a slip and slide, whatever. And others believe you can get the same benefits by using special electrical conduction products.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So this is what my friend has.

I've [00:31:00] mentioned him a second ago. He brings an earthing mat to hotels stop. So he stands on a mat in a hotel that's like, you know, 30 floors up in Manhattan, and he's like, I'm grounding. Make it make sense. You're not on the ground. Your whole room

Jessica Wynn: is grounding. Good. I mean, he's probably just taking some deep breaths though, and feeling better

Jordan Harbinger: maybe.

Yeah. Further, we say stuff like you seem grounded down to earth, like it means something. I did a podcast while sitting on a grounding mat. To heighten my experience and I fidgeted the whole time. 'cause the cord was under my ass,

Jessica Wynn: man. Yeah. But the people who gave you that mat, they want it to make a difference.

They, they do. You know, they think it's affecting us emotionally. And there's like a poetic connotation, a balance, connectedness, slowing down and that's what people are craving and, and experiencing. So the earth part, it's all metaphor. You know, grounding is not a scientific diagnosis.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so you mentioned free radicals earlier.

Remind me, that's electrons flying in or flying out. I forget which.

Jessica Wynn: I mean, simply free radicals have an electron flying [00:32:00] out and it's looking to steal electrons from other molecules. So this is a good spot in the episode, I think, to give a shout out to the humble proton.

Jordan Harbinger: I see the opposite to an electron, charge wise, I assume.

Wow, the proton's so sad. They never get enough love.

Jessica Wynn: They don't, they don't. And the proton, uh, you know, it's a charged particle that balances the electron and it's, it's actually a hydrogen ion. So there's actually a proton disease, another thing that gets blurry by the earthing community. Okay, so too many of these hydrogen ions or protons in the stomach.

That occurs when we have too much acid and that's what gives us ulcers. And the fix for that is something people might be familiar with. It's a proton pump inhibitor.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: But it's the drugs that are soaking up the protons, not a, a barefoot walk in the woods.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, the humble proton causing indigestion to untold millions.

So yeah. So people think it's earthing and it's like, could be the antiacid you took just [00:33:00] saying.

Jessica Wynn: Right. Yeah. I mean, and diet, exercise, those sorts of things. They're reducing our oxidative stress, which is free radicals. So foods, real stress management mops up free radicals almost certainly more effectively than lying on some weird earthing mat.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Okay. Speaking of which. What about other Earthing products? Do they do anything to aid in our health? I mean, earthing jacket, probably not. Earthing Mat, probably not. Jade Egg in the vagina, question mark. I dunno. It's

Jessica Wynn: just, it's just No, it's like full stop. But there's so many of these products for sale.

There's the grounding mats, there's copper threaded sheets,

Jordan Harbinger: oof

Jessica Wynn: yoga mats with wires. None of of them are proven to work. There's just no evidence that sort of. Plugging your bed into an outlet cures anything?

Jordan Harbinger: What do you mean sort of plugging it in?

Jessica Wynn: Well, I mean, most of these products plug into the third hole of outlets and the third hole does nothing.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. I'm not sure about that. Oh,

Jessica Wynn: all right. Jordan, [00:34:00] get your mind outta the gutter. God. Yeah. Well, we can call it the third prong then.

Jen Harbinger: Oh, get, get go.

Jessica Wynn: God, fine. Okay, fine, fine. But just go look in an outlet. One on the bottom, it does absolutely nothing. If nothing is plugged into the other two prongs, Uhhuh, it's, it's just a safety component for when something is plugged in to catch stray electrons and ground them.

But these grounding and earthing products, they aren't live, it's, they're just a scam.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it sounds like, it. Sounds like it. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: There was a 2023 article I read that it argued indoor earthing equipment and products don't, and can't. Control for all the different factors that influence biological grounding.

So simply put, these researchers said that even if all the claims about indoor earthing products were true. The product's effectiveness would still vary wildly for reasons that are just beyond your control. This includes [00:35:00] things like soil moisture levels and the quality of electrical mains, ground connections, stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was wondering, it's like, so you're just trusting that this. Third hole just goes straight into the ground and the ground is receptive to whatever crap is coming off your body. I mean, come on,

Jessica Wynn: power of the mind.

Jordan Harbinger: Um, anyway, the placebo effect, it's not nothing, by the way. So if somebody feels better doing this, okay,

Jessica Wynn: sure, sure.

But money not well spent though. Right? Right. You know, the placebo effect is real, but it's not magic electrons. It just bums me out to see people thrifted, especially about their health. Yeah, and let's not confuse this correlation with causation. You know, grounding wires protect electrical systems from overloads like lightning, but that's way more electricity than your body is.

Ever, ever, ever dealing with. Plus, you know, think about it. If you're buying a special mat to sleep on, you're probably also doing other things to feel better. Like you're just showing you care about your health.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But the marketing is very slick. They wrap it up in Eastern wisdom. Sure. Spiritual vibes, [00:36:00] testimonials, slick e-commerce kind of experience.

Right. Look, I respect indigenous and eastern culture traditions, whatever, the harmony with nature, I get it. But turning that philosophy into a wellness grift that doesn't do anything. That's always been a problem for me, which is why we're here. Um, people would buy well marketed dirt if it was for sale.

Actually. They're probably already, yeah. Surely that exists.

Jessica Wynn: I am news for you. Yes. Um, earthing.com oversight. They don't sell dirt, but it not yet. There is earthing dirt. Like specifically marketed for Earthing. That is for sale on Etsy and Amazon.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I look, I've seen $300 earth toned yoga blankets, but actual dirt.

That is actually brilliant. You just buy a bag of dirt for five bucks and then you sell it for 55 bucks.

Jessica Wynn: I know. What are we doing wrong here? Genius. And the products are endless. You know, like go to earthing.com, check out his site, it. The funny thing is it doesn't tout all the, the free practices you can do.

It doesn't lay out the science. It just sells products like earthing rods and shoes [00:37:00] and blankets and mattress pads. There's these adhesive patches and earthing strips that, oh my god. You know, say put these on your skin and you'll see that the, you know, it pulls out these electrons because the. Patch changes color, but oh my God.

You can take the patch and put it on the wall. It'll change color. It's just, it's just the friction. It oxidizes or something. Yeah, in the air. Exactly. So I mean, if you could walk in the grass for free. Why is he pushing a copper threaded blanket and magnets plunged into the third prong of your outlet?

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, people most love the ritual or they live in high rise buildings.

I don't know.

Jessica Wynn: I know, but it, it, it would be way more helpful to encourage people to go outside to actually sit in the grass to. Unplug. Take a deep breath for free. I mean, that does have benefits, but we just can't pretend it's physics.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Take that prong outta your third hole and relax.

Jessica Wynn: Take that prong outta.

Yeah. And don't fall for the sales pitch of wellness companies, you know, making more and more money from you just for the crap.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: We need to be [00:38:00] super skeptical about the money grabs. The global Earthing equipment market was valued at over $5 billion in 2003, and it's projected to reach over 9 billion by 2032.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Those, I was gonna say, those words are charged. This, that is so much money though. What a waste. Uh,

Jessica Wynn: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it's holy smokes.

Jessica Wynn: It's a lucrative industry. It's, and it's dedicated to bringing the benefits of the great outdoors. Inside.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

Jessica Wynn: But I mean, just go outside, don't spend the money.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So literally the whole thing is a scam, top to bottom?

Jessica Wynn: I think so. Okay. I mean, my skepticism always grounds me into thinking that if this worked and cured everything mm-hmm. Wouldn't it be used improved? Wouldn't we be talking about it all the time? I mean, these products, you know, we discussed products on our hangover episode and people responded about things that work for them.

I really thought about it and, and yeah, if you're being mindful enough to be taking deliberate steps for your health, whether it's taking a pill before drinking or [00:39:00] plugging your bed into a outlet that doesn't work, I mean, you're probably being mindful about other healthful things, which is also contributing to your lack of pain or symptoms or helping you mentally feel better, like just staying hydrated.

Taking breaks for self care, diet and exercise, that all affects us.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So these dubious devices have zero real evidence that they do anything at all. I went to hiking in the Grand Canyon and somebody brought an Earthing mat

Jessica Wynn: to be what?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible marketing to think that you would need that earthing that at the Grand Canyon.

Jessica Wynn: Well, are there outlets at the Grand Canyon? I mean, that's insane. I will let you

Jordan Harbinger: guess. There's not even cell phone service in the Grand Canyon. You, you can die out there, but at least you won't be, I don't know, positively charged or something, or negatively charged. That

Jessica Wynn: bums me out because it's taking away from that person's experience.

I mean, there's just no research establishing the basic claim that an electrical homeostasis has any effect on how our [00:40:00] bodies function. If it worked, it'd be in hospitals not hiding on some influencer's. Instagram, you know, you can look back. Doctors used to prescribe time at the seaside. They stopped because it doesn't heal anything.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a great point. I remember all those like, go to this cave to cure your tuberculosis. Go to the seaside because it cures things. This is a really good point. If you're mindful enough to buy the mat, you're probably doing yoga, you're drinking water, you're managing stress, you're taking your vitamins, you're working out.

Right? That's. Probably what's helping, regardless of what is in your third hole or whatever.

Jessica Wynn: Right? Totally. I mean, I think there's a simpler reason people feel better after quote unquote earthing.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Wynn: They're outside, they're moving, they're breathing fresh air, they're getting sunlight. You know, we're always on our devices.

We're always rushing, so just slowing down and putting your feet in the grass, it might make you feel good being present. It's powerful. You don't need a pseudoscientific bedtime [00:41:00] story to enjoy a hike

Jordan Harbinger: right now. Yeah. Now available exclusively from Goop and Gwyneth Paltrow taking a walk around the block for a limited time.

Only 99. 99. Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's, it's interesting how science and spirituality sometimes bump into each other though, right?

Jessica Wynn: Oh, absolutely. I mean, if this was a cure all though, wouldn't it mean. Every landscaper is more healthy than an office worker. A grave digger is healthier than a hospital employee.

Farmers would be healthier than teachers. I mean, I surf a lot. I'm barefoot on the beach several times a week because of where I live. It clears my head. I. You can't bring a phone on a surfboard, but I still live with like an incurable autoimmune disease that gets worse as I age. You know, I have to take a pill every day.

I still get sick more often than I'd like. Other things plague me being barefoot all the time. It doesn't cure anything.

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It is your support of our advertisers that keeps us going. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. And if you can't find the code, email us. It is that important that you support those who support the show. I. Now for the rest of skeptical Sunday, I hike a lot, but I never take my shoes off because, you know, stuff bites and there's sharp stuff.

Yeah. It, it still helps me unwind. Plus, I wanna get away from emails and, and phone calls and that pretty much does it. Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: Right. You're, you're slowing down, you're going for a walk, you're letting yourself relax. You don't want a rusty nail in your foot.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Again,

Jessica Wynn: like all these effects, they can happen inside on a.

Treadmill, did you say again? Sorry. Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's okay.

Jessica Wynn: Those effects could happen on a treadmill too. In inside it's, it's not Earthing magic, it's mindfulness.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And yet earthing is exploding in popularity. I see earthing and grounding hashtags all over the place. That Netflix documentary, I think did pretty well.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, it's huge on social [00:46:00] media. The Earthing documentary, it was on YouTube. Oh, YouTube it over. 5 million views. Geez. It launched this whole trend when it came out in 2019, and it was really good timing. It became really popular during the pandemic.

Jordan Harbinger: Is the documentary worth watching? I already know the answer to this question, I think, but you know, yeah.

Jessica Wynn: I watched it for you. It's brutal, it's biased, of course. Sure. Um, it's marketing disguised as enlightenment. You know, they say it has cutting edge research and world class experts, but it's just quacky chiropractors. Longevity, influencers, people selling stuff. Mm-hmm. There's one retired cardiologist in it.

His name's Sinatra, which is fun. Mm-hmm. And, but everyone else seems to be on the take. Like there's one quote unquote expert who says he tells knee surgery patients to walk barefoot in the grass. That's fine. But it's basic rehab. It's not medicine. So meanwhile, they never once [00:47:00] explain what grounding or earthing actually is.

In the whole movie, there's no definition, there's no science. It's just. Testimonials and Right links to websites.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. It's like, Hey, hey, go for a walk in the grass barefoot. Oh, okay. It must be the grass and that I'm barefoot. No, man, we're just trying to get you, you to walk. Right, because I did surgery on your knee and I'm trying to hide the ball instead of telling you to walk.

'cause you won't do that, but you will go walk barefoot on the grass. Right. If it's all anecdotal, that's always problematic. I will obviously skip watching the documentary. Yeah. It sounds like you could swap out Earthing with. I dunno, CBD or cold plunges or drinking celery juice and it's just the same script.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I think so. I mean, also in the movie, they don't mention that Clint Ober. Owns the product line that's featured in the film.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Jessica Wynn: Okay. That's a wild conflict of interest, right? Sure. He's credited as the executive producer and he basically is the movie. He's the main star. So it's like if Elron Hubbard wrote and starred in a documentary about how [00:48:00] Dianetics and Scientology cured his back pain,

Jordan Harbinger: I am almost positive that exists.

Yeah. Fun. Another pseudoscience marketing cult. Is there a line like. In the documentary, I assume there's a line like this is the truth, your doctor won't tell you.

Jessica Wynn: I think they might say that. Exactly. For

Jordan Harbinger: sure. Why not? While you're out there, you know,

Jessica Wynn: it ends with, you know, like and subscribe and click here to buy.

Yeah. Or crazy products and

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Jessica Wynn: Oh, one guy said you should walk barefoot on the freeway because no rubber tires something. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Negatory.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it was just another influencer said her sacred Earthing pillow case. Improved her aura. Ah,

Jordan Harbinger: there's something you could never falsify because it's totally not real.

It's true. I don't understand what a sacred earthing pillow is. It sounds flammable and never walk on the freeway barefoot or not. That is super dangerous and super illegal for very good reason. That's a great way to get hit by me at least one car and kill somebody.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Geez. And just. Just, [00:49:00] oh, what are you walking on?

Yeah. I mean, what sucks about all of this is that people are, I think in good faith they're looking for answers, and especially post pandemic, there's more skepticism around medicine, you know, that's on the rise, and it makes earthing seem really attractive.

Jordan Harbinger: I wonder if it became more popular post pandemic because people did seem to go for more walks when everything was shuttered in 2020, and at the same time they also distrusted science a lot more.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, for sure we, we were disconnected with nature, you know, we're on our screens and so during the pandemic, yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people did get out more. Earthing is just selling this fantasy of reconnection. It's crazy. The idea of enjoying nature being monetized.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: It doesn't mean we should be doing these normal, or there there's some extreme earthing practices like the freeway walking extreme.

Yeah, yeah. Oh

Jordan Harbinger: yeah. That's extreme. Yeah. So. Is there anything more extreme or on the same level as freeway [00:50:00] barefoot, freeway trolls?

Jessica Wynn: I mean, it's a real thing some people are really proud of. You know, it's practices like walking barefoot in the snow, going out in really heavy rain, running long distance through rough terrain and mud and fasting in the woods while naked.

You know? Okay. Some people are insist on sleeping directly on the ground, which obviously can be dangerous. Those who take earthing to extreme physical levels, they're just searching for this deeper connection to the earth's energy. But it can be really dangerous. You know, you could get frostbite to the point of losing toes, which has happened to some people.

Scalding burns, I mean, I, I don't get the connection to the pavement that just seems illogical.

Jordan Harbinger: I remember seeing just absolute maniacs who never wear shoes walking around NYC, New York City on freaking Broadway and in the subway when I lived there. And that can't be good. And I sorta get it. Look, if you live in a rural North Carolina farm area and you're walking around [00:51:00] bay, okay fine, Manhattan, just why,

Clip II: who said to me, you just littered down the street.

Don't you care about the environment? And I thought about it and I said, you know what? This isn't the environment. This is New York City. This is not the environment. This is where people live. New York City is not the environment. New York City is a giant piece of litter.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. And the people who are walking barefoot in New York City, are they actually earthing like you're not touching earth.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. I get it. If you live in a really big, high rise city, you can feel very far away from nature. I understand. It can feel like you're a very, very long way from that natural earth state, unless you're in Central Park or something. Yeah, there's like three floors of pipes and subway below you. You're not earthing, bro.

So are there colonies or communities for extreme earthing? Like a, you know, like a nudist colony, but just for bare feet people? Barefoot people?

Jessica Wynn: I don't know if there's, um. Actual communities, but nudist, earthing [00:52:00] is definitely a thing. I guess you have no

Jordan Harbinger: choice at that point. Right? Right. Of course. Might as well.

Jessica Wynn: That PNI goes way back too. The good old Benjamin Franklin was a big believer in sunbathing. Naked every morning. He called it his Air bath. He still suffered from gout and syphilis and who knows what else.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: There's just no connection that these practices heal. Anything like is claimed. I mean, I think for most people it's low risk, but there are safety hazards associated with Earthing and I, I think most of them are probably.

Pretty obvious

Jordan Harbinger: syphilis, huh? Wow. Uh, that's another skeptical Sunday, I suppose. Yeah. Okay. Sun dating naked. It sounds like a great way to get a sunburned dog. Um, oh God. Hard pass. Or in my case, at nearly 46 years of age, semi hard pass. Oh,

Jessica Wynn: wow.

Jordan Harbinger: Jordan.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: I'm on fire today.

Jessica Wynn: Sun your perm for a minute a day, and you'll never be sad again.

You know? Yeah. Google perineum

Jordan Harbinger: kids on your work computer.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. [00:53:00] Right. While Earthing seems harmless, you know, it's not always advisable. Sure. Walking barefoot in nature, it's accessible, it's free, but there are a few landmines, like, okay, if, if you have a chronic medical condition. You know, like reduced sensation in your feet from diabetes is, is common.

So walking barefoot on hot pavement or rocky trails, not a good idea because you, yeah. You know, you could get injured without even noticing. Plus you have to think about allergic reactions, the soil's full of bacteria and parasites and whatever your neighbor's pets left behind.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Nothing like reconnecting with the earth and catching ringworm or something from it.

Gross

Jessica Wynn: God. I mean, earthing websites even worn that earthing may make you feel worse before it makes you feel better.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Jessica Wynn: What. Ever that is supposed to mean,

Jordan Harbinger: that's exactly what it means is you're gonna catch dirt syphilis and be like, what the heck? And they're like, ah. We covered that on one of the lines where we said, it might make you feel worse.

That is not a wellness claim. Right. It seems like the [00:54:00] real danger is the scam on desperate people looking to feel better and cure something.

Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I mean, true. The more rigorous research is needed to confirm if there's any substantial health benefits. Yeah, you might sleep better, but it's because you've been more active at the beach.

You're on a picnic than a usual day, so, so definitely go to parks, touch trees, get out into those natural areas sometimes, but it should be a compliment too, not a replacement for evidence-based medicine. So some online resources for earthing can contain medical misinformation. So read about this topic with a really critical eye.

Earthing likely has some mental health benefits, but you don't need products and it can't, as some claim cure diseases or take the place of modern medicine.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I guess I do earthing and don't even realize it, but it's, maybe that's why vacations feels so good. Sure. The advice here? Yeah. Go outside. Yes.

Touch trees. Yes. [00:55:00] Lie in the grass. Don't replace your medication with dirt or contact with dirt,

Jessica Wynn: right? Please take your meds, you know, yes, whether it's placebo or not. If it helps someone feel more grounded, mentally, physically, whatever, maybe that's enough. So, mm-hmm. Yeah, get outdoors. Visit nature, but just don't let yourself get Thrifted.

Jordan Harbinger: Thanks Jessica. I'm gonna follow my kids' lead and roll down a hill and make sure I don't get anything stuck in that pesky third hole. Thanks everybody for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday directly to meetJordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her sub stacks. That's more than one between the lines and where Shadows linger. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Tadas Sidlauskas, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, [00:56:00] and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. And I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I don't, I'm not a pre PhD in Earthing 'cause that doesn't exist. So do your own research before it. Well do some real research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge we doled out today. Maybe, maybe you force them to listen to this while they're standing outside or plugged into that mat in the hotel and they can't go anywhere.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.