1141: Dark Pillar of Community Abuses with Immunity | Feedback Friday

1141: Dark Pillar of Community Abuses with Immunity | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the stranger holding the door for you while you've got your hands full as you enter this edifice of life drama, Gabriel Mizrahi. You know how you gotta speed up a little? Like you gotta pretend to speed up so you look like you're being play the little walk run.

That's right. The little walk run where you're like, oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from former jihadi and drug traffickers to cult members and mafia enforcers. Even the occasional good guy makes an appearance on this show. This week we had Mark Fullman author of Trigger Points Inside the Mission to Stop mass shootings in America.

Really sobering episode about mass shootings, school shootings, what it might take to stop this crazy nonstop problem that we're having on Fridays, though we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare Gabe to various means of ingress and egress. Before we dive in today, I gotta tell you guys something funny.

My son Jayden, he now says, frigging, ah, that frigging mushroom guy cut me off. We're playing Mario Kar. Sometimes he will just yell frigging really loud when he is angry. She took my toy frigging, and

[00:01:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's the first big thing he is doing. That's very much like you, right?

[00:01:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's funny. He also looks exactly like me, but tiny like you looks really funny.

Yeah. Only my son does this. My daughter doesn't do this at all. He's just got this sort of streak to him the other day. Hi, Junie. Hi. I knew you were gonna come in. Hold on. Let me lift you up. Look out. I don't wanna run over your foot. Look out. It's Uncle Gabriel.

[00:01:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi. Hello.

[00:01:54] Tiny Human: I have a foot.

[00:01:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I have two feet. How are your feet today? Ginny?

[00:01:59] Tiny Human: Eh?

[00:02:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah.

[00:02:02] Tiny Human: Woo.

[00:02:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, nice. Can you see that little foot?

[00:02:07] Tiny Human: What?

[00:02:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: How's a foot?

[00:02:10] Tiny Human: That was a stinky foot.

[00:02:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: You don't know that? You can't smell my feet over there.

[00:02:16] Tiny Human: No. I can't smell.

[00:02:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, you can't.

[00:02:21] Tiny Human: I smell the fire

[00:02:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: not on my end. Junie, maybe over there.

[00:02:28] Tiny Human: I do like duh.

[00:02:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: So we're recording A podcast.

[00:02:35] Tiny Human: A podcast?

[00:02:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Do you know what that is?

[00:02:38] Tiny Human: I dunno.

[00:02:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it's what your dad does for a living.

[00:02:43] Tiny Human: Oh.

[00:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Did you know that?

[00:02:44] Tiny Human: Yeah.

[00:02:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: You did know that?

[00:02:46] Tiny Human: Yeah. You still have no hot tub?

[00:02:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't have a hot tub still since yesterday. I didn't get one.

[00:02:54] Tiny Human: I wanna buy you yours.

[00:02:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: You wanna buy me one?

[00:02:58] Tiny Human: Yeah.

[00:02:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: You wanna buy me a hot tub?

[00:03:00] Tiny Human: Yeah.

[00:03:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. We'll talk to your dad about that.

[00:03:03] Tiny Human: Well, you can get mine.

[00:03:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I can have yours. You're gonna give me your hot tub?

[00:03:08] Tiny Human: Yeah.

[00:03:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: But then what hot tub are you gonna go in?

[00:03:11] Tiny Human: I can join you in my hot tub.

[00:03:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, so we share. Thank you

[00:03:17] Jordan Harbinger: Gabriel. And my uncle Gabriel and I are gonna do some work.

Okay.

[00:03:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ginny, I have to work with your dad and we're gonna be done really soon. And then you can hang out with him as much as you want. Sound good?

Thumbs down or thumbs up?

[00:03:37] Tiny Human: Thumbs?

[00:03:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thumbs up

[00:03:39] Tiny Human: down. Thumbs down.

[00:03:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: No thumbs up.

[00:03:43] Tiny Human: No.

[00:03:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, fine. Bye Junie.

[00:03:47] Tiny Human: Say bye. Bye bye.

[00:03:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry about that.

[00:03:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: No worries.

[00:03:52] Jordan Harbinger: Both of my kids are funny, but my son is just unintentionally hilarious in ways that sometimes we can't always show. So he's really pissed off the other day, really angry about some nonsense.

He goes in the toy room, he brings out this Nerf gun, which he found. We did not wanna buy him this, but he found a Nerf gun. And then we just were like, okay, fine, you can shoot targets. And I said, what are you doing with that? Because I knew he was really angry with his sister and he goes. God to protect myself, just like matter of very matter of fact.

And it was just like, okay, stay strapped yo in the house's

[00:04:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: like a turf war breaking out in the house between Jaden and Juniper. Yeah. Yes. That's hilarious.

[00:04:31] Jordan Harbinger: You gotta be strict with them because they're doing something wrong, but they're doing it in such a funny way. You have to try not to laugh. And sometimes Jaden and Juniper will do something that Jen and I have to correct, but then we look at each other and we're just like, don't you laugh, you have to cover your mouth and pretend you're not entertained because otherwise it reinforces the wrong behavior.

And this, the last like 48, 72 hours has been full of this and it's one of the funnest parts of parenting

[00:04:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: actually. Yeah. Can you record some of this and put it on Instagram or something? 'cause that would be so funny to see.

[00:05:01] Jordan Harbinger: Have a, why do you have your gun out? JI nervously. Like why do you have your gun out, your Nerf gun?

Protect myself.

[00:05:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Because it's dangerous out in these streets.

[00:05:08] Jordan Harbinger: It's hot out there. For Pam? Yeah, just in the living room while everyone's eating dinner.

[00:05:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. Speaking of protecting yourself.

[00:05:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What's the first thing outta the mail back?

[00:05:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, two close friends and an acquaintance have confided in me that they were brutally assaulted by a man.

Let's call him Zack Ax Mo is this. He dates women, gains their trust with charm, poetry, and wit, then uses psychological manipulation to physically force himself on them. Afterward, he gaslights them into believing they wanted it needed it, or that he's quote unquote, enlightening them by forcing some twisted form of shadow work on them.

The reality is that he's passing his own trauma onto them, under the guise of spiritual growth. In his mind, he's some kind of dark guru, dragging women through hell in the name of awakening. In reality, he's just a predator.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a piece of crap. So shadow work. Is that a Carl Jung thing? Right. I've heard about, I don't really know what that entails.

[00:06:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: So shadow work, people use that term in different ways, but basically it's about recognizing and integrating the dark side of your personality. So those parts of yourself that you repress or consider shameful or bad in some way, or like certain impulses or behaviors or feelings. And actually, what is kind of interesting about, it's that for many people, sometimes even good qualities or superpowers can end up in the shadow.

And the idea generally is to reclaim them to be in touch with them and acknowledge them. Be consciously in touch with all of these aspects of yourself so you can integrate them.

[00:06:46] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. And the idea is if you integrate this stuff, you're healed or whole or whatever.

[00:06:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I guess so. I don't know about healed, but the idea is that if you're in touch with all of the parts of yourself, you have more self-awareness, you have more authenticity, you're whole basically instead of repressed or cut off or in denial of good or bad parts of yourself.

[00:07:05] Jordan Harbinger: So dark Jordan ish?

[00:07:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, precisely. Okay. That's a shadowy kind of thing. Yeah,

[00:07:10] Jordan Harbinger: that sounds useful. Just dragging things into the light. I can definitely now see how creepy wanna be culty gurus like this dude could co-opt something like that to take advantage of people.

[00:07:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, for sure. No legit Jungian or person who's inspired by Jung or anything would do something like this.

Ironically though. I don't know all the facts, but if this guy actually did true shadow work on himself, then he probably would not need to abuse other people. But that's a whole other idea. It's so gross.

[00:07:39] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, carry on.

[00:07:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: From what I've gathered, Zach comes from a highly unstable background, neglect, drug abuse, financial chaos, maybe worse.

He's dabbled heavily in psychedelics, and my suspicion is that unchecked trauma combined with spiritual bypassing has left him deeply unhinged.

[00:07:57] Jordan Harbinger: Clearly that all tracks, but I will say, I don't know if I chalk this up to the psychedelics, I have a lot of friends who have responsibly turned to psychedelics to heal precisely these wounds, as well as address things like PTSD, depression, anxiety, all of that to great effect under doctor supervision, et cetera, et cetera.

But yeah, if you're deranged or you're using them inappropriately, or you're not applying what you learned from them, yeah, they definitely won't help you. They might even do more damage.

[00:08:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: One of my friends, let's call her, Taylor, already tried to raise the alarm in our dance community, but the organizers hesitated to act too afraid to make a call based on hearsay, even though Taylor's a pillar of the community.

She was in tears when she told me saying, I hate that he's still allowed at these events, and it makes me so uncomfortable when he shows up. Meanwhile, Zach is still attending dances leading prayer and song circles. Ironic, I know sometimes just sitting and staring at the crowd with a darkness in his eyes that I can't unsee.

[00:08:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oof. Yeah, that is unsettling.

[00:09:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I want to do something, but I know confronting him personally is dangerous. He knows exactly who he's harmed, so if word gets out, he'll know. Someone talked. Narcissistic abusers don't own their actions. They retaliate. Twist the story, play the victim. My men's group has my back if needed, but I need a real strategy.

Filing restraining orders seems like an easy first step. If members of our community take legal action, the event organizers will be forced to comply. His victims could also press charges. But ideally, I want him to face actual consequences and take accountability.

[00:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, facing charges is an actual consequence, isn't it?

And if he gets prosecuted, then he'll really have to face consequences.

[00:09:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. What more consequences could you ask for than that?

[00:09:43] Jordan Harbinger: Like karma? I don't know. I'd be more satisfied with prison time.

[00:09:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Personally. How do I move forward in a way that keeps my friends safe, holds this man accountable, and ensures that he cannot manipulate his way out of it?

Signed plotting some next steps to correct the defects of this dark subject.

[00:10:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is all super sad and dark. What a stressful situation. Not just that this guy is manipulating and assaulting women in your community, but that these event organizers can't or won't take action to kick him out. That is not cool.

So based on what you've shared, I'm going, what the hell are these people thinking? A prominent member of the group comes to them and says, this guy's a monster. He's sexually assaulting people in our community. He needs to go and they just shrug their shoulders and do nothing. I. Then, I dunno, maybe these organizers are in a tough position.

Maybe they feel they don't have the grounds to kick 'em out. They don't have enough evidence. They didn't find Taylor's testimony compelling for some reason, or they're trying to be fair to Zach, which frankly, I'm surprised they'd have that reaction in this day and age. But who knows? Maybe they're also making room for both parties.

Although if what you say is true, and it sounds like it is, they are clearly making the wrong call here. So I think you have a few options here if you wanna hold this guy accountable. First off, I think you need to talk to Zach's victims. I might do this with Taylor's help ask them what their goals are, what they wanna see happen.

I love that you're a champion and an ally. You do have an important role to play here, but they're really the ones who get to decide whether to tell their stories, talk about what happened to them, decide who to share it with, whether it's the event organizers or other people in the community, or the police or a court, if they take out restraining orders.

Ultimately their testimony, that's what's gonna matter the most. Now, you have to tread lightly here because this is very sensitive territory. These women have been assaulted. This is obviously traumatizing. And if you approach them to talk about what happened, you have to do it from a place of great respect and empathy and gentleness.

And I'm not sure how close you are with these people, how much they trust you. That's a big factor here. But either way, you gotta be thoughtful about how you start this conversation. And that's why I think Taylor could be helpful because A, she's a woman, and B, she's a prominent member of the community.

And I can't tell if she was a victim herself or if she was just speaking up for other victims. If Zach targeted her too, then she's an even more powerful ally in all this. But either way, it sounds like she has unique relationships and influence in this world. So actually I'd start with Taylor first and strategize together about how to proceed.

It sounds like you two could make a good team. I bet it would be very powerful for the event organizers to hear from women and men about this. And when you guys talk to these women, I would work up to asking them, what do you wanna see done? How do you want to handle this? Do you wanna file a police report?

Do you wanna take out restraining orders? Do you just want this guy out of the dance group? And just see what they're willing to do. And from there, I would support whatever plan they want to go with one person's story. Honestly, that should probably be enough to intervene in this case, but it might be hard for the organizers to know what to do with that 3, 4, 5, 10, whatever, women coming forward and saying, Hey, this guy's a monster.

He shouldn't be here. They have to take that seriously. And that can be multiple individual emails to the event organizers. It can be a letter signed by all of them. It can be an in-person conversation where they all tell their stories to the event organizers. But I tend to think that writing is best because it can be more damning and compelling and it can be shared more easily.

And then you have to back them up and say, you guys need to listen to these women. And as a man, I'm also quite disturbed by this guy being here, and I want 'em gone. That's your role. But again, I think it's primarily the victim's call. This is their story to tell and you're welcome to share what you know with the organizers on your own too.

But ultimately it's their testimony that's gonna make the most impact. Of course, the victims are gonna have to balance that with their own safety. I know one of your concerns is that Zach might actually retaliate, although yo, there's safety in numbers. If several women report him, I gotta think there's a decent chance he'll be so scared that he'll just disappear.

You said he is a narcissist. In a way that's a liability, but in another way, it might actually be an advantage if he's terrified that people will withdraw their interest and affection for him or stop listening to their fear of him. I would be shocked if they didn't ban this guy after hearing all this, but you won't know for sure until you try and if they don't wanna talk for whatever reason, then you can still report him based on what you know.

That might move the needle too, but I just, I don't think it'll be as impactful.

[00:14:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: As for making sure that he can't manipulate his way out of it. That's tough. I'm not sure how much control you really have over that. Given what you've told us about him, I'm sure he is gonna try. It's not really your concern though.

Your concern is to help keep your community safe and empower these victims to handle this the way that they want. Make it clear to the people organizing these events that this guy is dangerous and that they do need to take this seriously. The best way to prevent him from manipulating his way out of this is to arm the organizers and potentially the police and the courts if you guys decide to go that route.

With as much solid and compelling information as possible. I mean, that's really the most important thing. Beyond that, I'm just not sure how much you can control about this guy.

[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: And look, if the group still doesn't take this seriously, maybe you do go a little dark Jordan on this. Maybe you encourage Taylor to start a private Facebook group, or people can talk about their stories.

Maybe you guys publish an anonymous essay or post for the whole community to read, naming the guy detailing what he's done. Maybe you get everyone to shun this guy on their own until he gets the message. Or worse, you know, I'm sure you can get creative. I'm not a big fan of doing these things before going through the proper channels, but hey, if the proper channels fail and the evidence against him is credible and overwhelming, I do think it becomes fair game.

I'm so sorry that this guy is hurting your friends. It's truly awful. People like this obviously need to be called out, kicked out, held accountable. They're dangerous and gross, and they infect special communities like yours, and they ruin them. But I think as a guy, as a non victim here, you do play a secondary role in supporting the primary victims.

So start there and keep asking how you can be the most helpful and you'll know what to do in the meantime, Hey, keep dancing. Keep being there for your friends and take good care. All right, now we're gonna get in touch with our shadow side by acknowledging what shameless money hungry capitalists we are.

Deep down, even Carl Jung couldn't say no to the deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by IQ Bar. IQ Joe is the instant mushroom coffee from IQ bar with bold flavors that's loaded with functional brain nutrients and 200 milligrams of caffeine for jitter free energy.

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[00:17:04] Jen Harbinger: And right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners, 20 person off all IQ bar products.

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[00:17:22] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Better Help Therapy can sound big serious. I gotta lay on the couch and talk about my childhood while staring at a ceiling fan.

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Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Alright, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[00:18:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm having my first child in a few months. My parents first grandchild and recently flew across the country for a baby shower. They were hosting. My mother-in-law invited family and parents of my husband's childhood friends, but then also included several members from her tribe.

Her MLM slash essential oils slash supplement group whom I've never met.

[00:19:00] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, yes, exactly. Who you want at your first baby shower. A bunch of woo woo strangers you've never met before. Running a shady side hustle and recruiting your friends and family for their downline.

[00:19:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Pushing 30 cases of bergamot oil on your college roommate next to the stork shaped spinal aopa.

That's the scene.

[00:19:16] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. Exactly. Yes. I heard you majored in astrophysics with Julie. Have you ever wanted to be the CEO of your own life? No. Thank you. What do you do?

[00:19:27] Tiny Human: I'm a astrophysicist.

[00:19:30] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I'm a Gemini.

[00:19:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh,

[00:19:37] Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

[00:19:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to stop and explain for our listeners. The glee on Jordan's face right now that he just got to use that. I think you've been sitting on that one for at least two years. Oh yeah.

[00:19:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Years. Just waiting. You've

[00:19:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: been on a good run with the sound bites lately.

[00:19:51] Jordan Harbinger: Just waiting for an astrophysics reference, which,

[00:19:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: when's that gonna come up?

And here we are. Here we are. All right. So the letter goes on. The shower was okay, but it felt awkward having strangers at an event that was supposed to be, for me, it felt like I was just a featured guest at my mother-in-law's show.

[00:20:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's not a fun feeling.

[00:20:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Side note, fascinating how many baby shower drama questions we've had at lately.

[00:20:15] Jordan Harbinger: I think any event like this, right? Wedding, baby shower, any sort of big event with a lot of people involved who think they should have a stake in it, but it's really about one person and a lot of people cannot handle when that person is not then is a minefield.

[00:20:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But I just mean like in the last few weeks we've gotten so many letters about the same event.

[00:20:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's baby season.

[00:20:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, I didn't even think about that. That could explain it. Okay. Also only a few people from the guest list of about 40 actually purchased items from our registry, and those who did bring gifts brought them in person. Despite our invitation, clearly stating to ship them directly to us so we wouldn't have to pay to transport them back across the country.

[00:20:55] Jordan Harbinger: Who needs a diaper genie? When you can have discounts on essential oils that you just can't get anywhere else, that's the gift. Not to mention financial freedom. That's really the gift that you should have put on your registry.

[00:21:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: The gift is mentorship and leadership and community.

[00:21:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Man, that is definitely annoying.

Okay. But to be fair, this might not have been malicious on their part. A lot of people just don't read invitations closely. You might wanna let that one slide. Also, the people who didn't give you a gift, they might have been like, we don't even know the couple, so we don't have to get them anything. We're just friends of Marlene's or whatever, which is, yeah, rude obviously.

But that might say more about how absurd it is that she invited people you don't even know to your shower than it does about these people's characters. By the way, everybody involved in MLM is broke anyway, so they couldn't have afforded anything on your registry. Most likely

[00:21:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: charitable and cutting take on your part.

I'm grateful for the attempt to celebrate the significant life event, and I appreciate the gifts we received, but the whole thing felt like it was designed for my mother-in-law's benefit rather than mine. This isn't the first time she's done something like this. She once randomly declared that the family had a tradition of running five Ks at Thanksgiving and then cutting down Christmas trees.

Neither of which ever happened during my husband's childhood.

[00:22:09] Jordan Harbinger: Wait, what? Okay. First of all, super weird thing to randomly declare if you've never done it. I guess somebody's trying to keep up appearances or whatever, but I'm a little confused. How is that similar to the baby shower thing?

[00:22:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so I'm guessing it just means that the mother-in-law does things that benefit her without thinking how they're gonna affect everyone else.

And maybe she literally made a bunch of family members run a 5K and cut down Christmas trees one year because she wanted to pretend that was a thing they do for God knows what reason. Sure.

[00:22:34] Jordan Harbinger: And this woman is a little off a rocker,

[00:22:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: maybe a little. I know I'll need to set boundaries when the baby arrives, as I'm certain she'll try to push her anti-science beliefs and dietary restrictions on my child.

But that's a conversation for another time. Am I being ungrateful? How do I continue to navigate these challenges? Signed stuck between Munificence and Malevolence when it comes to my mother-in-law's recklessness.

[00:22:58] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Interesting. Mother-in-law, huh? As with most stories, I think there are many things going on here.

I get the sense that your mother-in-law is really sweet and generous in certain ways. Just throwing a party for you at all, even if it's not the one you wanted. That does take a lot of work, and she might be a little self-absorbed and misattuned sometimes. The MLM, the multilevel marketing scam thing though, that is just a red flag all on its own, and it does for me color everything else you shared, but maybe we need to separate these things down.

So no, I don't think you're being entirely ungrateful. You've literally said, I'm grateful for the attempt to celebrate the baby. I appreciate the gifts we received, but the whole thing felt designed for my mother-in-law's benefit rather than mine. What I'm hearing is that you appreciate what she's done and what some of these people got you, and that the day was more about your mother-in-law than it was about you, which is fair.

My only caveat is we don't have enough information to know how malicious your mother-in-law really is. How much of this is intentional? It does sound like she probably struggles to identify fully with other people and personalities like that can come in a few varieties. There are people who are out and out narcissists, and there are people who just aren't very self-aware or attuned to others.

So yeah, it's possible. She's just more clueless than hurtful. If that's true, then it's not that you're being totally ungrateful, but you might need to work a little harder to appreciate what your mother-in-law did offer you, given her limitations. So that's my one big caveat, but your second question is the most important one.

How do you continue to navigate these challenges? Because once the baby comes, things will probably get more intense. She's gonna wanna see your grandchild. Her beliefs are gonna bump up against you and your husband's beliefs. That's tricky. You don't want her feeding your kid essential oils or trying to get your husband to not vaccinate your kid for measles or something like that.

Right? It's gonna be tricky. The saving grace is you live across the country, so that makes things way easier. But I'm sure this will not be the last time you have to work with your mother-in-law's. Tricky personality. My feeling is, I think you need two things. One is a lot of patience, a lot of forgiveness.

'cause in all likelihood, she's not gonna do a 180 at her age, and you're probably not the person who's gonna make her see things differently. Especially these MLM, multi-level marketing, anti-science types, they're very entrenched in their delusional positions. It's very culty. I. The other thing you need is strong boundaries, like you said, and a willingness to tell your mother-in-law if it's appropriate.

When something does not sit right with you, the baby showers behind you, I probably wouldn't re-litigate that unless you feel she could take in some feedback that it would set a helpful precedent for future events or something. But let's say that in a year or two you fly out again. She wants to host a birthday party for her grandson.

That might be a good moment to say, Hey, listen, I really appreciate that. You wanna throw us a party that's so sweet of you. I wanna make sure the day is really about him. So can we make sure the guest list is just friends and family of ours? Can we be super clear with people about gifts and work with her to avoid the baby shower situation again?

Or if that's only gonna create tension, you politely decline and you just host the party yourself and just. Keep her away from planning big events. That's also an option. And whatever she says or does something that serves her but doesn't take into account how it's gonna affect you guys. If she randomly declares that now there's suddenly an annual tradition of going cross country skiing with her grandkids or whatever, and that's not something you wanna do.

Maybe you and your husband start gently pushing back, or you learn to say, Hey, you can go have fun. We're gonna stay here, see you in a few hours.

[00:26:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I like that approach. Basically, you need to kind of risk disappointing and maybe occasionally hurting your mother-in-law if it's necessary, and if it means standing up for your legitimate interests, you don't need to be cruel.

You don't need to be disrespectful. I don't think we're saying that you should be adversarial for no reason. I would not defy your mother-in-law just for the sake of winning, but if her way of doing things is going to continue to come at your expense in some significant way, like having to participate in a party that's more for her than for you, or having to run five kilometers on Christmas when you don't want to or whatever.

I think it's perfectly all right to push back or work with her to create the experience that you and your family do want.

[00:27:03] Jordan Harbinger: And if that's not possible with her, maybe you guys just won't be very close, which sucks, but it happens. I'm sorry that your mother-in-law is challenging in certain ways. I also think it's important to recognize her for her good qualities, which you're doing, and validating those qualities.

That's gonna be just as important as pushing back on the trickier ones. So keep that in mind too. This will probably be a process, a subtle negotiation you're in for a little while. The key is to know when to draw a hard line and when to be skillful, and that's something that I'd collaborate with your husband on deciding if these big moments come up and good luck.

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[00:28:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a federal employee and I've been struggling with anxiety recently due to the uncertainty of my employment.

I've been lucky enough to remain employed, but I've communicated with many people who have been released due to the federal realignment. Most of them are friends who have spent their entire lives as civil servants. Just for anyone who's listening right now who doesn't live in the us, I think this person is referring to the Doge cuts and to a lot of the layoffs that have been hitting government agencies across the board.

So he goes on, how do you handle losing a position if you feel it was unwarranted? If you work on programs that give aid to people in need, U-S-A-I-D, how do you reconcile leaving those things undone? When an organization, agency, or job you've spent most of your life supporting is shut down unexpectedly.

How do you feel about the work you've done throughout your career? Signed coping with the specter of losing my vector in the public sector.

[00:29:19] Jordan Harbinger: Great questions. First of all, all politics aside, and I know that's not what your question is about the anxiety you're feeling, it must be pretty intense. It's very normal.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. However people feel about Doge and Elon and these cuts being laid off or being at risk of being laid off, it's stressful. It's scary. It's unpleasant. So I really do feel for you and for your friends and colleagues. I also know that the uncertainty is often the hardest part.

Most of us can deal with a clear loss. It's painful, but it's survivable. But not knowing what's coming when it's coming, not always being able to track the logic behind these decisions. It can drive even the best of us. Insane. You and your peers are over there sweating under this sword of Damocles, so I can only imagine how intense this chapter must be for you, and I'm sorry that you're going through it.

So there are no simple answers here. This is no different from losing your job in the private sector or going through any other loss. Although I do know that many public servants, especially the ones who work in more impactful roles, they're usually driven by a real sense of purpose. And that makes getting fired sting even more.

So the first step, I think, is to accept the loss completely, which means really allowing yourself to go through the pain, not denying or negotiating with it, not suppressing the emotions that come up around it, sadness, anger, fear, whatever it is. And this might be the hardest part for us, humans learning to accept that some professional blows are just inherently unfair and sometimes unnecessary.

And that's not a comment on Doge or your job specifically. I don't know all the details of your career. I'm not an expert in these government cuts and whatnot. I'm talking about loss in general. We go through so many things in life that are quote unquote unwarranted, that don't have a clear rationale, that don't make sense, then we're left to make our own meaning of them or to accept that there is no meaning.

So that's the first step, just grieving. The next step is deciding what to do with that grief. The feelings that seem especially powerful for you right now are this anxiety and the anger, which I'm sure is true of so many federal employees right now. I also think this belief of this was unwarranted. I think that's a thought you're gonna have to work with.

Not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're gonna have to figure out your relationship with that thought. 'cause look, maybe these cuts or potential cuts are unwarranted. Maybe they aren't. I don't know. In a way, it doesn't matter. I don't mean that to be callous. I am not minimizing how stressful this is. Of course, it matters to you, to your friends, even to the world.

But it doesn't matter from the standpoint of this is what's happening right now, or this is what could happen. And if something is happening, especially a force as big as this, that you ultimately just can't control, then there's no arguing with it. So whether you find it warranted or unwarranted, fair or unfair, logical or insane, and I can appreciate all those judgements.

It's really secondary. What's primary is what you do with those beliefs, how you apply them. 'cause look, you could spend months, you could even spend years, and many people do this, being angry, being anxious, resenting the people in institutions that are firing them. Again, those responses are totally valid, but they can also keep you stuck.

They could prevent you from working with these circumstances to find better outcomes. Whereas if you looked at this and you went, man, this sucks. My friends are being laid off, I might be laid off. I'm freaking out. I think it's unnecessary. I think it's unjustifiable, I think it's dumb, whatever those beliefs are, and I can't control this.

So what can I control? What do I do with these feelings? That is a very different process, a much more productive and interesting process. 'cause one person might feel this anxiety and anger and just go, this is awful. I'm screwed. I'm just gonna stand here and freak out and wait for the chopping block or rage against government.

Another person might feel these feelings and go, wow, this is really painful. This uncertainty is bringing up a lot of feelings for me. Maybe I can find a way to use them, and that could look so many different ways. It might mean starting an informal group for federal workers who've lost their jobs or are at risk of losing their jobs, supporting one another.

Commiserating, sharing resources, advice, job postings, whatever you guys need right now. It might mean reaching out to your contacts now and warming up those relationships in case you need 'em, or building those relationships if you don't have them yet. Telling your story to people. Channeling this anxiety into creating the safety net you'd wanna have if you do end up losing your job, which coincidentally is exactly what we teach in six minute networking.

It's a free course. Six minute networking.com. If you're not doing it now, start doing it. Dig the well before you get thirsty. That's literally the whole point of the course. Who knows? It might even mean advocating for your position in a new way. Putting in a little extra time to communicate what you do, why it's important, how you're needed, and I don't just mean hitting reply to Elon's, what did you do this week?

Email, if that's a thing. This is not a subtle endorsement of all that, which I'm sure some people listening right now are really trying hard to suss out. I'd have the same advice for somebody in the private sector on telling the story of your job to the people who need to hear it and maybe banding together with other people in your agency to do the same, if that's appropriate.

Whether it's an email to more senior people or an essay you publish on Substack or talking to a reporter or whatever it is. Point is these feelings and opinions you have all of them. Fair. They're only useful to you to the extent that you work with them, that you put them to work. What I've learned over the years dealing with a ton of uncertainty myself, is you can't control the uncertainty because you know it's uncertain.

It's not even a thing. It's the absence of a thing, and your mind just cannot do anything about it, even though it really, really wants to. But what you can do is control your sphere, your mind, your heart, your body, your words, your actions. You can decide what spirit you wanna meet people in, what mindset you wanna greet your challenges with.

You can take your anxiety and your anger and your sadness and channel them into specific choices as opposed to just being overwhelmed by all of them. So my advice is this surrender to what's happening. Look for the open doors. They are always there. I promise you, whether you wanna walk through them or not.

[00:35:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: And the truth is, you don't know if you wanna walk through them because you know you haven't walked through them yet. But there's a world where if you do end up losing your job, which you know, I sincerely hope does not happen, but I think we need to prepare for the possibility. To Jordan's point, there's just so little control you have over this huge force that is moving through the government right now.

There is a world where you wake up in three months or six months or a year and you go, man, this was not where I thought I would end up. But it's actually kind of worked out well, or at least it was interesting having your career turned upside down. Sucks. I get it. I know it's awful. But the pain that you're experiencing right now is actually a symptom of change.

It's not necessarily an indicator of whether that change is good or bad. I. And I think that's also important to remember. So don't let your anxiety and anger blind you to the opportunities here. Once you give yourself over to what's happening, even if you hate it, you're going to start to spot them and you're gonna start to get curious about them.

And I can tell you firsthand, it is ultimately kind of exhilarating to do that.

[00:36:17] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. He might as well start thinking that way. Now.

[00:36:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also hear that our friend is struggling, not just with the practicals of losing his job, but with meaning. I think anyone who loses their job has to grieve not just the identity and the structure of their profession.

They also have to grieve their purpose and their impact. In some ways that can be even more painful, especially for mission-driven people like you. And honestly, I don't know if there's a simple answer to that part. I don't know if you can really reconcile leaving certain things undone, especially when those things, like some of the initiatives that were being done at U-S-A-I-D, however you feel about that agency, they do have a real impact on people's lives, and that's a whole other.

Bucket of anxiety and pain to deal with, right? So Jordan's advice to fully surrender applies here too. Reconciling, eh, that's another thought. I think that's another thing that your brain wants to do. And yeah, maybe you'll get there one day, but in the meantime, I think you just gotta accept, which means being willing to feel all of the feelings around not being able to finish the work that you care about and not understanding why it makes any sense.

And you gotta trust. That might be painful, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the end of the mission for you. It doesn't mean you can't pursue that purpose somewhere else, in a new way, in a new role, doesn't mean that the people whose lives that you and your colleagues touched are not gonna find other sources of support.

And by the way, it definitely doesn't mean that the work you've done up till now is totally meaningless. You get to decide how to feel about your track record, and that's gonna show up in how you communicate that meaning, for example, when you reach out to people and tell them your story or when you sit down for job interviews.

So. Basically, you wanna make sense of this, but the reality is that it might not ever totally make sense. Basically, I understand that you wanna make sense of this so that you can get through it somehow, but the reality is that it might not ever totally make sense, at least to you. And I also think it's possible that it doesn't have to make sense in the way that you want it to.

[00:38:16] Jordan Harbinger: Hundo p and I keep coming back to the idea. There's something vaguely zen about this, this idea that you don't know what this uncertainty means and you don't know where you're gonna be in six months or a year. You could still be in your job and totally safe. You could be in a new role in the government and loving it.

You could be in the private sector and having a whole new experience. Yeah,

[00:38:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: you could be a party planner for the mother-in-law in the previous question. You don't know.

[00:38:38] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. You could be shilling euro oil by the gallon, counting your MLM stacks and thrilled that you left the public sector.

Obviously. I'm kidding. There's no such thing as MLM stacks. We all know that point is all of those timelines could be fantastic, but where you end up, the quality of your work, the meaning you derive from it, that is all gonna depend on how you act now. So come back to the basics. Good work, strong relationships, a healthy lifestyle, strong habits, productive mindsets, generosity.

These are really the things that are gonna get you through. You don't need to know exactly where you're going, although I can certainly sympathize with wanting to know. You just need to use this very strange and stressful time to become the best professional you can be and keep evolving. And if you do that, I promise you you're gonna weather this storm and you're gonna be great.

I'm so sorry that you and your peers are going through it, but I have a ton of faith in you guys to land on your feet, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. And now we are gonna drop the Sword of Damocles right on the prices, on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe. If you haven't heard of which you have, I'm sure we had a break in recently while we were home. Nothing quite wakes you up, like realizing somebody's creeping around your house that shouldn't be. Whole neighborhood was rattled. We were rattled naturally. My very sweet, very proactive neighbors decided it was time for action.

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[00:42:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: feedback Friday. Okay, next up, dear. I got kidnapped twice and handsome boy number two. Ooh. I'm a 47-year-old guy living in South Dakota, and I have a sister-in-law, let's call her Debbie, who's a little older than me, is intellectually disabled and has a mental age of four or five. Last year there was a dust up between Debbie and the rest of the family that caused us all to cut a visit short and go home.

Even though she was largely responsible, I decided to be the bigger person and smooth things over. So for Christmas, I gave her a card apologizing for hurting her feelings. She yelled, I don't want an apology. I wanna be mad. Which was probably the most authentic thing she's ever said. We're all used to her being perpetually angry.

So we let it slide as cute, albeit a little disappointing.

[00:43:23] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. There is something cute and authentic about that, but this is a challenging family member to have for sure. Poor woman.

[00:43:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Had a little bit of Jaden going, fricking energy. Fricking yeah. I have two sons. One is a teenager and the other is about to be a teenager and is also severely autistic.

Debbie and my in-laws live around the corner from us and do a lot of the daycare. She likes to feed my boys afternoon snacks. Although at this age it's less of a necessity and more of a chance for them all to hang out. The other day, my wife went to pick up the boys while I was at work, and Debbie was in one of her moods.

So she said, Debbie, you would feel so much better if you would just apologize to your brother-in-law and and accept his apology. So Debbie went into the bathroom, came back into the living room, holding a bottle of medicine and shoved all the pills into her mouth.

[00:44:14] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. That's awful.

[00:44:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then my youngest son entered the room to find Debbie attempting to down the pills.

[00:44:20] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, this keeps getting worse. That's a terrible thing for a kid to witness.

[00:44:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: My wife immediately called 9 1 1 and my father-in-law went about getting Debbie to spit out the pills. After my wife got off the phone with nine one one, she called me and I raced over from work to get my kids outta that house.

Around the same time that the cops and the paramedics showed up for various legal and tax reasons. Debbie has never been legally declared mentally incompetent, and nobody has guardianship over her. So when the authorities arrived, she told them she didn't swallow any of the pills and didn't want further help, which meant that as soon as the paramedics determined she was either telling the truth or.

Didn't swallow enough pills to be dangerous. They couldn't enforce an involuntary psychiatric hold and they left.

[00:45:06] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. I gotta say this story really brings to life why having these legal structures in place is so important. Gabe, I'm trying to imagine what those legal and tax reasons are for not having a guardianship would be.

I mean, I know it's a headache, but it's gotta be more helpful than costly.

[00:45:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? I wonder if he just meant that it's a lot of responsibility. Like for example, if you have a guardianship, I think you have to get power of attorney. You have to manage the person's benefits. You gotta file taxes for them.

It's a whole job. But also I did read up on this a little bit, and if you don't do any estate planning or like gift tax planning before the ruling of incompetence, apparently you do have fewer tax saving strategies. Like it's harder to gift the person assets, for example, because they can't legally consent to financial transactions or changes in their estate plan.

[00:45:56] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Okay. That does make sense. Maybe that's it, but if you provide financial support for somebody who's declared incompetent, don't you also qualify for more tax deductions in credits? For one thing, I remember learning that.

[00:46:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you do. First of all, I'm really sorry to everyone for how boring this tangent is, but this could be really helpful for some people listening, so I'll be very brief.

There is something called the dependent care credit. If you have to pay somebody to care for your dependent, who's incapable of self-care so that you can go and work, and then separately, you can also deduct medical expenses for unreimbursed medical costs for the person if they exceed, I think a certain percentage of your income.

[00:46:34] Jordan Harbinger: I. So to bring it back to our friend here, maybe the parents make too much money to benefit from having her declared incompetent. They don't work, so they can't claim that. Or maybe they just don't wanna deal with all the admin. To be fair, I guess I can understand.

[00:46:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, one other interesting thing, a guardian or a conservator usually requires court approval for significant financial decisions and that can just like slow down or block certain tax saving strategies

[00:46:58] Jordan Harbinger: and is costly and is a pain in the ass.

Okay? But then if your child hurts themselves and you need to make a medical decision not having this in place, it clearly becomes a liability. So it's kind of like, eh, which one is more important? Saving some money or being able to fully care for them?

[00:47:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's exactly the right question. So he goes on, the family had an agreement that first thing Monday morning.

Debbie's parents were gonna call her psychiatrist and schedule an emergency appointment to get things under control. But my mother-in-law claims she can only focus on one thing at a time. And right now Debbie has some minor health issues and she wants to get those under control. Just go to their regular psych appointment next month.

My father-in-law is willing to give Debbie whatever she wants as long as it keeps her quiet. So he's taking advantage of my mother-in-law's decision to also avoid doing the right thing. Meanwhile, my kids are traumatized, especially my younger son, asking if they and Debbie are going to die. Uh,

[00:47:53] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. I'm not buying it.

I'm not buying their stories.

[00:47:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am furious.

[00:47:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I get it, man. I hear the anger in your letter, and I agree.

[00:48:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Snacks, meals and school pickups and drop-offs are done. My wife and I have decided to have zero in-person contact with her family until they meet with Debbie psychiatrist and come up with a plan.

The most likely outcome is gonna be nothing, because by the time they meet, they're gonna think everything's calm and there's nothing to worry about.

[00:48:21] Jordan Harbinger: It's also very possible they just won't say anything about this because it might complicate their situation. Oh, she'll never do it again. We talked to her.

[00:48:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, maybe, but you know what? I'm not totally sure that this outcome is what's gonna happen. Maybe it is. Maybe this guy knows best, but a good doctor if they heard what she did, I'm hoping that the parents would tell them the full story. They should factor that into their treatment. They should try to prevent this next crisis.

I would hope so, but yeah, there's no guarantee. But I just wanna say, I do think it's important not to catastrophize too much or assume the worst possible outcome before you have all the information

[00:48:54] Jordan Harbinger: fair,

[00:48:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: the letter goes on. Even if they do come up with a plan. My wife and I have decided that we're both going to go over when the boys have snacks, and if anything goes sideways, she's gonna call 9 1 1 while I get the boys out of the house.

I'm gonna be in total sheep dog mode. My only mission is to make sure Debbie doesn't kill herself in front of my kids. Or harm them before she goes. I'm so angry with Debbie and her parents that I don't even care if she does it, just that my kids don't witness it or find her after the fact. If her parents wanna keep her alive, that's their job.

I know that's not a very charitable stance, but it's how I'm feeling right now.

[00:49:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, dude, I get it. You don't want young kids around somebody unstable, and you definitely don't want them to witness anything traumatizing for no reason. My only caveat is I get why you're angry at Debbie, but mentally, she's four years old, she's disabled.

She doesn't fully know what she's doing. It's hard, but you kind of gotta forgive her. Her parents on the other hand, they're a much more legitimate target of your anger. I think they're also probably terrified and embarrassed and overwhelmed, and they're handling this the only way that they know how.

Might be good to make room for both of those facts.

[00:50:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Even though I didn't witness what happened, I think I'm in a bit of shock. Yesterday I was checking the mirrors in my car. Scanning rooms and counting exits way more than normal. I'm going to need to dial that instinct up to 11 when we hang out with my in-laws again, but I need to manage it so I can come back down to baseline.

When I leave, I know you're gonna recommend therapy. I have a therapy hotline at work. Some pastors that I trust and some law enforcement and military friends who I plan on having helped me manage the threat assessment shifts, complicating matters. My wife and I will be responsible for Debbie's care when my in-laws pass.

That is an imminent, but she's old enough that things could change rapidly. Her living with us is no longer an option, but there's enough money and state resources to make sure that she's provided for. I'd like to see some of that money put into irrevocable trusts and managed better, but keeping her safe and alive is the priority.

Now, being able to override her decisions is more important than money.

[00:51:03] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. I think you're on the right track.

[00:51:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, Debbie threw some garbage at my wife during the incident. None of it hit her, but the cop asked, did anything she threw touch you intimating that if it did, that could be enough for assault, jail, or criminal charges would hurt more than help.

But I am not above getting that 72 hour psych hold on a technicality. Even if Debbie and my in-laws don't consent, what can we do to protect ourselves? What sort of plan can we create here? How do we set a bottom line for Debbie's father that he will enforce? How can we best care for Debbie when the time comes?

What goals should I set for therapy and any dark Jordan advice signed? Protecting my flock and watching my sister-in-law like a hawk when her parents just balk at getting her mental on lock? I.

[00:51:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. What a story. There's so much going on here.

[00:51:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a doozy, dude.

[00:51:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:51:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:52:00] Jordan Harbinger: We could probably spend hours unpacking all this.

I'm gonna try and cut to the chase here. First of all, goes without saying, Debbie's whole situation is very challenging, very tragic. I know that you're angry with your in-laws. I would be too, but my heart also breaks for parents who have to care for a child with needs this severe, it's gotta be so hard practically financially and emotionally.

If you can empathize to some degree, you have a severely autistic son, different diagnosis, obviously totally different circumstances, but I'm sure you know how hard this must be.

[00:52:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: On the flip side, I wonder if he looks at the way he's handling his son and he looks at those parents and he is like, guys, this is what you have to do.

I'm doing it for my son. Why can't you do it for yours? So it could cut both ways. Interesting.

[00:52:40] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure he is. And there's nothing wrong with that. Oh, I draw boundaries and don't let this person get whatever they want as long as he keeps them quiet because that's not a good long-term strategy. So could your in-laws be doing a better job?

Probably yes. Is it also kind of an impossible situation also? Yes. I say that again, not to dismiss your concern or minimize your anger. They are appropriate, in my opinion, they have to protect Debbie. You have to protect your kids. Just to be very direct here, I like your plan to keep a close eye on Debbie.

When you go over there, keep the boys safe. If anything terrible ever happens again, call 9 1 1 if you need to. I agree that taking care of Debbie is primarily your in-law's job, but because it's their job and they're not doing it perfectly, I think a big part of protecting yourself is educating them, empowering them to be more proactive and managing her care, helping them see the ways they might not be doing enough or moving fast enough and collaborating with them to find better resources, better partners, better decisions.

[00:53:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just realizing that that's kind of why I pounced a moment ago when he said that the likeliest outcome of going to the shrink is gonna be nothing. Because by assuming the worst, I think you and your wife might be missing a big opportunity, which is to talk to her parents in a new way about your concerns and hopefully work with them in a way that helps avoid that outcome.

You could literally say, guys, we're very concerned that Debbie's psychiatrist is gonna think that nothing serious is going on by the time you get in with them and something serious is going on, even if we don't really wanna acknowledge it and we feel that we would be failing her and continuing to put your grandchildren at risk if we don't address this.

So how would you feel about getting that appointment sooner? How can we plan for that appointment starting now so that the doctor understands just how vulnerable she is? Do you want one of us to come with you? Like how can we help? I.

[00:54:26] Jordan Harbinger: Fair. That's a much more productive conversation. That's a way better use of your anxiety.

It's a much more loving way to show up for your in-laws and for Debbie instead of condemning them for an outcome that hasn't even come to pass.

[00:54:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's my point.

[00:54:41] Jordan Harbinger: I would also try to help them see why that outcome would be bad for all of you, and then figure out how to achieve a better one by helping them take care of Debbie.

You'll also be protecting yourselves now and down the road. I also think that offering to tag along to the appointment or just advise from the sidelines, I think that's also a great way to start learning how to care for Debbie when the time comes. Don't wanna find yourself starting from zero and scrambling to learn everything overnight in 10 or 15 years when this responsibility eventually becomes yours.

The other way to care for her is to put those structures in place that your in-laws haven't as soon as possible. Guardianship, conservatorship. Any other programs or resources for people like Debbie? Again, this is probably gonna require you to collaborate with your in-laws, so that's one more reason to proactively work with them, even if they're driving.

But you and your wife might also need to start driving just a little bit more. I know it's a huge responsibility, but as we keep coming back to the more you guys can get these supports in place now, the harder you work early on, the easier it's gonna be to care for Debbie when the time comes. And my strong advice is to talk to a family lawyer and an estate attorney as soon as possible.

Getting a guardianship, a conservatorship, that is gonna involve a court appointed plan and some crucial admin. You need an advisor. It just always helps to start this early. You might start with one lawyer, decide you don't like him, move on to another one. I mean, this just takes longer than you think sometimes.

And accessing money to care for Debbie, which by the way, you guys are very lucky to have. That's gonna require you to manage it well, which means having the right trust and bank account and paperwork and bankers and systems for managing state resources and all that, all of which are gonna require an estate attorney and consulting with these two attorneys alongside your in-laws, or at least at the very least, relaying what you learned to them that might actually help them see why they need to start being more proactive.

[00:56:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also go back and listen to episode 1124. It was question four on that episode where we took a letter from a guy who's trying to figure out how to best care for his autistic brother once his parents get too old. His brother is pretty different from Debbie, but there are so many parallels between your stories and so many similar feelings, which makes sense.

I do think our take there will also help you plan for your situation

[00:56:54] Jordan Harbinger: as far as setting a bottom line that Debbie's father will enforce. Honestly, I don't know if you can, given what you shared about his personality, sounds avoidant. Your better bet, in my opinion, is to collaborate with him and his wife in the way that we're talking about, treat them like partners to be empowered rather than liabilities to be managed and to help them see how their indecision and avoidance might actually be making things worse.

Respectfully, of course, if it helps you cut through the fog and actually get them to act.

[00:57:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. But listen, I wanna talk about you for a moment. You've been through something pretty extraordinary as a father, as a brother-in-law, just as a human being. Honestly, it sounds to me like Debbie suicide attempt brought up a lot for you, which makes sense.

The hyper vigilance that you described, that's a very common symptom of anxiety of PTSD among other things. And like you said, it might be useful because you're gonna have to be on high alert when you go over to the house, but you also don't wanna live with your nervous system, your brain in that state all the time.

That's bad news. So you are absolutely right that we're gonna recommend therapy. I think you and probably your wife as well, could really benefit from it. And look, I'm so glad that you have a hotline you can call that's really good in a crisis, and I am all for talking to leaders in your community and friends who can help you navigate all of this.

It's wonderful that you're surrounded by so many people, but none of those folks are a replacement for a proper therapist. They might be therapeutic, they might be very helpful in certain moments, but that doesn't make it therapy. My feeling is that you have a bigger opportunity here, which is not just to focus on symptom reduction, which is important of course, but also to understand yourself and your family a lot better.

There's a chance here to appreciate why your in-laws are handling Debbie the way they are, why you have the responses to them that you do, including by the way, this anger that you feel toward them, which I think is very meaningful. Also, to understand how your upbringing and your family, and your patterns are playing a role in all of this.

To process the stress and responsibility of being a parent to a special needs child yourself. To appreciate how your experience with your son, like we said, might be informing your feelings about your in-laws. Which by the way, I suspect is a much bigger part of your story than you might even realize.

And also, just on a practical level, one of the big things you get to do in therapy is develop new skills for navigating difficult conversations with family, communicating with your wife about Debbie, and just generally to get clear on your role in this whole situation, when to act, when not to act, what other resources you might need to care for a special needs family member, which is another area where a therapist can be super useful.

In other words, what I'm saying is your experience in therapy could be a lot bigger than just figuring out how to, what was the word he used? Manage the threat assessment shifts. My sense is that this day at the house when Debbie took the pills is a window into a whole world of feelings and beliefs, experiences, history, family history, that are all actually quite complicated.

Symptom reduction is one great goal of therapy. It's important. It's not the only goal. And actually I think it's often the byproduct of a deeper therapeutic process, which is generally unpacking everything around the problem, processing your feelings, building this relationship between you and your therapist, stepping into a better understanding of yourself and your life and how you wanna engage with the problems that are in front of you.

So bringing down the hypervigilance and ratcheting down the anger that'll probably happen in the course of doing this kind of work. So I would really encourage you to consider finding a proper therapist and starting to talk. It does sound like you're open to it, which is great. And my goals would be all of the things we just talked about and any others that you find meaningful.

But my point is to not necessarily go in there with just the goal of how do I stop checking my side mirrors in the car, and how do I stop scanning every room I enter for the exit doors?

[01:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, go deep, and the symptoms generally tend to take care of themselves. As for dark Jordan advice, honestly, I'm very sweaty about the ethics of using dark Jordan techniques on a special needs person.

No shadow side. For Debbie, I. Like you said, getting her arrested for something that she didn't even do that would probably traumatize her way more than it would help even if it led to her seeing a doctor. You guys also might not need an involuntary hold. What you need is to help Debbie's parents see that they need to get her in with a psychiatrist ASAP or to take better care of her until she does get in with her psychiatrist.

Now, if you try and they refuse and Debbie tries to hurt herself again, and there's really no other option, and then maybe you go dark, but you have so many other options to try first, so please don't jump the gun. I'm very sorry that Debbie struggles the way she does. It's putting so much stress on your family.

Everything you guys are going through is deeply said, extremely challenging. I don't envy you guys, but what Debbie's forcing you to do is evolve in the way you relate to your in-laws, in the way you take care of yourself and your sons, in the way you engage with the system and the law. It sucks, and I wish you didn't have to do it, but in a very weird and mysterious way, she's actually forcing you to grow.

So my hope for you is that you throw yourself into that growth. That's really all you can do. I'm not saying it'll be fun, but it could be pretty profound and quite rewarding if you meet these responsibilities with the right mindset and resources, sending you, your wife, your kids, Debbie, the whole family, a big hug, and wishing you all the best.

Alright, and now for the recommendation of the week, I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation this week doesn't cost you anything. It's stretching. Oh, nice one. Thank you. Look, I know this is kind of silly because people are gonna be like, stretching. I've heard of that. What the hell did we what we need you for, Jordan.

I have never been a flexible person at all. In fact, really, generally, really stiff. We all sit a lot. A lot of us anyways, most of us. And I was really frustrated with some of the lifting and stuff I was doing in the gym. I recently got into something called calisthenics, which is not aerobics. It's actually like gymnastics E.

And you don't need a ton of flexibility, but you need some. And just thought, all right, I'm gonna stretch my wrists, I'm gonna stretch my hamstrings, I'm gonna stretch my quads, I'm gonna stretch my groin. For 40 seconds, twice a day, each muscle, whatever, and it is just night and day. It's crazy. I thought, oh, I'm gonna be able to touch my toes more easily.

No, my stride has changed. My back has started releasing. I don't get shoulder tension anymore. I don't get hit pain anymore. I don't get knee pain anymore. I'm able to lift more weight just because I'm not fighting my body. I'm able to put myself in all these different positions that are way more comfortable.

I don't get as sore when I'm sitting in the car. The benefits are ridiculous. It's just actually insane. And this is probably what people are talking about when they're all like, you gotta do yoga. And you're like, shut up. You've said that a thousand times. This is just a major, major thing. And look, most people, if they're like, I don't have time to go do an hourly long yoga class every day.

I get it. Just stretch each muscle for 30 seconds, and I don't mean your whole body. I mean like your quads, your hamstrings, your groin. That's a good enough start right there. You're just gonna feel massive difference. And what is that? Like six minutes, twice a day, or even once a day? It's just very doable.

You can do it while you're watching tv. I'll do it while I'm listening to a podcast. I'll do it while I'm texting someone. This is not a heavy lift. This is a really easy thing that you can add to your day and it will just change everything. Especially if you're dealing with back pain, knee pain, hip pain, that's really gonna be a huge difference.

[01:04:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: If I could jump on this stretching bandwagon for one moment. I think another really easy thing to do in this department is if you do down dog for like five minutes a day, it will change your life.

[01:04:27] Jordan Harbinger: What does down dog do?

[01:04:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just puts your whole body in the right position. You know what I'm talking about though, like the, the pose from yoga?

[01:04:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Downward dog. It's a yoga pose. If you don't know what downward dog is, just Google it. You'll be like, oh yeah, that.

[01:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's just amazing. If you push your palms into the floor and you wrap your biceps forward and your triceps back and you just push the floor away and you pull your hips back, it just your spine and everything lines up in the right way.

You don't even have to be a yogi. I've told several friends about this and they're like, oh, my upper back pain is completely gone. My neck feels great. I stand a little taller. You don't have to be super hardcore to enjoy the benefits. I think this is great. I'm a big fan of stretching and doing tiny bits of yoga and small doses.

I love this one.

[01:05:06] Jordan Harbinger: Give it a shot for a week. If you don't feel a huge difference, you can have a full refund on this podcast.

[01:05:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right. What's next? Okay, for our last segment today, I wanted to revisit the letter we took about a month ago from the father of the daughter who refused to move out of her parents' house.

That was episode 1127. Question two on that episode, episode. Quickly for anyone who didn't catch it, the guy who wrote into us was struggling because his 27-year-old daughter still lives at home. She kind of refuses to move out and relies heavily on her parents for emotional support, which is now straining their marriage.

She's actually a very fascinating person. She was super attached to the house that they live in, attached to her home, to her comforts, she's avoiding therapy. It sounded like she was using a vague goal of working in law enforcement one day as a way to avoid going to therapy and working on herself. And she also struggled with OCD and hoarding tendencies.

She wanted to be close to her cats who were buried in the backyard and whenever they tried to talk to her about any of this building her own life, she would get heated. There was a lot going on in this story.

[01:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: So our take was basically this daughter's facing a number of challenges, all of which probably speak to a very real anxiety.

I. But these parents aren't serving her well by avoiding these conversations, cramping around her diagnoses, helping her stay small, safe.

[01:06:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly right. So I thought about this letter a lot after it aired Jordan, and apparently a lot of you guys did too. There was quite a lively discussion in the subreddit about it, and you can find that, by the way, reddit.com/r/jordan Harbinger.

And you guys brought up a few things that we might have missed in our response. So first of all, a lot of you agreed with our general take that the situation was not very healthy for any of them. Most of you seem to feel that this family was in fact, quite enmeshed. The daughter was quite fairly regressed.

A lot of you felt that she was actually manipulating her parents by coming up with all of these reasons that she doesn't have to leave the nest. Also that detail about sitting on their bed most nights, just emoting. Do you remember that, Jordan? Yeah. Yeah. That struck most people as problematic to very problematic.

In fact, I thought it was interesting. A couple people pitched the same idea, which was to just shift the location of those conversations from the parents' bedroom to her bedroom or to a neutral space like the living room or the kitchen. I thought that was kind of a clever idea. It doesn't solve the deeper problem, which is that she's just unloading on her parents for apparently hours, like a child at her age.

It might take out the childlike childish aspect of talking in her parents' bedroom every night at 27 years old. So that was clever. But then another listener touched on something that we didn't consider, which was, is it possible that their daughter is neurodivergent in some way, possibly on the autism spectrum?

And with that account for a lot of her challenges, a lot of her behavior, this listener pointed out that people with a SD. Sometimes have trouble making friends. They have much higher rates of anxiety disorders. They also have a very hard time with change, as we all know, which was a huge theme in the letter.

And if this daughter is on the autism spectrum, this listener felt that the parents need to approach the situation very differently. For example, giving her a timeline of six months to move out might not be realistic for her. It might really do a number on somebody who struggles with change and might not have the resources yet to really make it on her own.

[01:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: But then it was interesting, another listener shared their story. They have two adult sons who are both neurodivergent. One is on the autism spectrum. Both are successful in their careers and are living on their own. The parents support them appropriately with friendship advice. When asked money for extraordinary living expenses, they said they'd go nuts if their sons were still living in their small two bedroom home.

So that's a fascinating counterpoint that having a SD doesn't mean that his daughter can't function on her own or build a full life, although obviously that depends on the severity of her symptoms. And clearly there's more going on here than just potential a SD. There's anxiety, there's trauma, there's personality stuff.

There's just the unique circumstances of her childhood. It can be hard to separate all that stuff out.

[01:09:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it is very confusing and it's hard to know the right way to parent. Do you have to respond to the unique needs of each individual child? These are all good questions, but I thought this was a good point also, the original listener pointed out something else we might have missed, which is that cultural values can play a big role in situations like this.

So as this person put it, I understand that she's an adult and the social expectation in the US is that adults should live on their own, but. In many cultures, like in Italy, it is common for adult children to live at home in their thirties for economic and personal reasons. This is not necessarily a bad thing unless she's making the living situation difficult for them.

[01:09:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But she is making the living situation difficult for them, right? I mean, didn't the father say that? That's why they wrote in.

[01:09:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. He said he and his wife have some tension around their daughter. They aren't able to like step into the next phase of their marriage and their lives. So yes, this is a problem, but the idea that a child at a certain age has to move out, look, I happen to feel that's probably true universally.

It isn't possible in all countries and cultures for practical reasons like money or the availability of housing. But that's a separate issue. We're talking about what's emotionally healthy and developmentally appropriate, what well adjusted human beings need. And this 27-year-old refusing to leave home doesn't sound like any of these things.

But if we talk to somebody from, I don't know, India or Egypt or Japan, Korea. Honestly, even some European countries that are similar in many ways to the United States, they might have a different lens on this. My understanding is that a lot of children in those cultures live with their parents until marriage or often well into their twenties, even their thirties or longer if they don't get married.

And that's just normal.

[01:10:51] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. But that kind of just begs the question, how do we define normal? 'cause this might be the cultural norm in some places. So it's not weird from the standpoint of this is what we do in our country, but it can still be weird from the standpoint of is this psychologically healthy?

[01:11:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, totally. Is this awkward? Is this getting in the way of my growth? Is this impeding the family in general? Is living at home? Even if it's like what everyone's cool with, is that also allowing me to not face certain things in my life? So honestly, I don't know the answer, but I just wanted to touch on this because we are all influenced by our cultures in ways that are, I think often hard to see.

And maybe our take on that letter was heavily informed by an American value or or a Western value. That adults should not live with their parents past a certain age if they can make it on their own. And to be clear, I still don't think that's wrong. I'm not totally convinced that that's completely relative.

I suspect that if you asked a lot of adults in Korea or Egypt, if they would prefer to live on their own, if they could afford it, or if they had permission, I think a lot of them would probably say, yes, I would love to do that. I'm sure even cavemen wanted to move into their own caves at some point, you know?

But I recognize that other cultures might not always share that view. And since we hear from people from all different backgrounds and from all different parts of the world, I just wanna make some room for that. We do try to acknowledge when this applies, but honestly, I forget all the time

[01:12:10] Jordan Harbinger: I hear you. I think the autism theory is much more compelling than the values argument.

Personally, this daughter's rigidity, her fear of change, her clinging to her home, her parents, her cats buried in the backyard, all of that. It could be explained by, say, an anxiety disorder, but that could also totally be undiagnosed autism. I totally agree that somebody on the spectrum needs a different approach, a different set of supports, and we probably should have clocked that.

But to be candid, I'm also very wary of screaming autism every time we hear these qualities. Because A, people can be rigid and fearful and regress to when they're not on the spectrum. And B, as we just heard, not all autistic people fall into these patterns. And we get that a lot. A lot of people will say, you'll see a news article that's like the person had autism, and the top zillion comments are like, I have autism and I haven't shot anyone.

What the hell, man? So you've really gotta be careful about labeling a lot of this stuff. I worry it can be a little insensitive, simplistic to chalk up any certain qualities to just autism automatically when so many neurotypical people struggle in similar ways.

[01:13:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that is a really good point. Also, whether this woman is autistic or not, it doesn't change the fact that she's not really helping herself or her parents by responding to her situation the way she is, it doesn't change the fact that their way of relating to her might be preventing them.

From finding a good solution. So all of that could be informed by a SD potentially, which would make a diagnosis very useful. But I'm with you, Jordan, a SD alone probably would not account for how they all ended up here. And so I guess we're back to that interesting question of what role these labels should play in our lives, in our treatment, and in our decisions, which is a whole other topic, but just to say beyond the labels and diagnoses underneath these categories and symptoms, I think it's crucial to treat people as individuals with their own unique histories, their own unique personalities, their own unique needs, which means, yeah, having empathy and flexibility for their challenges, but also not letting them off the hook completely because I don't know, a doctor gave them a certain acronym.

I think that's really important to keep in mind too.

[01:14:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the big theme of that letter for me was what should love actually look like? What does caring for a child mean? I'm just realizing that's the big theme of today's episode. The mother-in-law who threw the baby shower, or the parents who aren't fully dealing with their disabled daughter.

I can say from experience that challenging your children and not always saving them. That's one of the hardest parts of being a parent. It can feel like you're being cruel or failing them, but stories like this one really capture how you can also fail your children by not challenging them, pushing them, allowing them to struggle to face healthy adversity.

That's a form of love too. And if that doesn't come early enough in their life, it can become really difficult, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't come later too. Anyway, fascinating story. Thanks to everyone for chiming in. You helped us fill in a few gaps and you helped us appreciate just how complex the situation is.

Always a delight on feedback Friday. Always more contours, eh, and if you get worked up about anything we talk about on the show, you wanna give your 2 cents or keep the conversation going, by all means, join us on the subreddit. I'm loving these discussions, and as you can see, they aren't just entertaining.

They're actually also really helpful. Go back and check out Mark Fullman if you haven't done so yet. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Rahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tata SCUs, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You are about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with the investigator who solved a serial killer case that had gone cold for decades.

[01:16:19] JHS Clip: There was a definite spike in serial predator crime in the 1970s. Part of it was the ready victim pools that don't exist today. Houses generally didn't have alarm systems.

We don't see women hitchhiking much today. Joe DeAngelo was a full-time law enforcement officer. He's breaking into houses in the middle of the night, raping women or girls that are home alone, that he's binding up and sexually assaulting. He ended up committing 50 of these attacks in Northern California between 19 76, 19 79, and just disappeared.

I started working that case in 1994. As a cold case investigator, even though the case is 30 years old, it's like, no, you know, this is still a public safety issue. We need to remove this offender from society. And in 2001 10 people had been killed across six cases. I'm seeing this woman's body laying inside her house in the photos of her alive on the shelf above her body.

She battled for her life that I could see this combat go throughout that entire room. After the Golden State Killer raped some of his victims, he would crouch in the corner and cry. They said he was sobbing, you know, it was like genuine. In fact, one victim. He was sobbing while he was raping her. The last thing I did in my career before I retired was I drove up and parked in front of his house.

I debated, should I just go knock on his door? I didn't know he was the Golden State killer, but this was such a brazen, brutal predator. He absolutely had to be caught

[01:18:00] Jordan Harbinger: to learn more about how Paul Holes puts himself inside the minds of serial killers. Check out episode 7 25 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.